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*__*)
10-31-2005, 04:45 PM
Are you for or against abortion?

I think that it is barbaric. There is a lot of talk on the pro-choice side about womens rights. I think that someone should think of the babies rights. And what about men's rights? It's their baby too. They may not be able to speak their oppinions on this topic, but if they could, I'm sure they would be completely against it. Any one of us could have been aborted. We would never know any of the good things in life, like how good food tasted, or how nice it feels to go swimmng in a cool pool on a hot day, or any of the many things that are good about living. I feel that people who have abortions do not have a clear conscience, theirs is clouded for some reason. Abortion is intrensicly wrong, it goes against nature itself. Some people will argue that they can't take care of it for some reason or another. Then give it up for adoption, it's that simple really.

How do you all feel about it?

Alive-Cat
10-31-2005, 04:50 PM
Women have the right to kill their babies, because they are THEIR BABIES.

*__*)
10-31-2005, 04:53 PM
you would be called Dead-Man if you're mother had aborted you.

It's not about how cute babies are. They are real people! If it was all about cuteness then a whole lot of people here would have been aborted long ago.

Leeza
10-31-2005, 04:54 PM
My thoughts on the subject are the same as yours, cait sith.

Destai
10-31-2005, 04:58 PM
A woman should be able to abort her child before it becomes a real person. Not after.

CaZ!
10-31-2005, 04:58 PM
Yes when you think about it bluntly abortion could be classed as murder. BUT imagine if you were a 16 year old girl pregnant with no money or support, would want to bring a baby in to the world knowing full well that you couldn't support it, it may be a bit harsh but if the babys going to suffer when its born its probably the better option. Plus the babies not even alive properly when your allowed to have an abortion so your not evern killing a real person!

edczxcvbnm
10-31-2005, 05:01 PM
I think that someone should think of the babies rights

and this is what the real arguement is about. Is that 3 month old fetus a human yet or just a clump of cells? Lots will say Human and others will say not yet. If they are not humans then they don't have rights.

I think I can go so far as to say they don't have any rights until they are born and thus become citizens anyways.

I don't really care one way or the other http://theworstpageintheuniverse.com/images/regressive_bs.jpg

escobert
10-31-2005, 05:02 PM
I'm pro choice. if you want one get one if you don't want one then don't have one. It's as simple as that. I really don't care. I feel it's the womens choice not mine.

Little Miss Awesome
10-31-2005, 05:03 PM
I sort of agree with cAz! I know I am a Christian, but imagine if the option of abortion wasn't given to mothers, how many more unwated children would be on the Earth, suffering and unloved?
I think it is wrong for women who are careless and just have casual relationships without any thought of the reprocussions, but women who have made a genuine mistake and know they can't bring a baby into the world and give it up for adoption or the life it deserves, well, I think it may just be better if that baby was never born at all. Yes, I think abortion is murder, but in the very, very beginning, isn't the "baby" just a cluster of cells?

*__*)
10-31-2005, 05:04 PM
I'm the last of 5 kids. Just my dad worked and it was a low paying job. We were really poor. The average household had just 2 kids, so I was very much an extra. I probably should have been aborted by the logic that if you're poor you shouldn't have children to bring them into a world poor.

But you know what, things are better now. I've always been glad that I'm alive and not dead. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this this sort of history.

Little Miss Awesome
10-31-2005, 05:09 PM
I'm the last of 5 kids. Just my dad worked and it was a low paying job. We were really poor. The average household had just 2 kids, so I was very much an extra. I probably should have been aborted by the logic that if you're poor you shouldn't have children to bring them into a world poor.

But you know what, things are better now. I've always been glad that I'm alive and not dead. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this this sort of history.

I don't think people mean poor as in not having a lot of money, I think they mean actually so poor they cannot bring up a child with enough neccesities such as food and clean water. I mean, given the choice, would you rather live a long, miserbale life filled with suffering and poverty, or be killed, or destroyed before you had the chance to know what a horrible life you may lead.
Just so you know, this isn't directly aimed at you, I think you make a good point, I'm just saying that to help prove my point a little bit.

*__*)
10-31-2005, 05:17 PM
But we didn't have food a lot of the time. I can remember only having ice cream cones to eat. Christmas, what was that? But life is too great of a thing to so completely miss, even if the beginning was bad like mine, or really bad, we can all make our lives better.

I did, I was a good student (I wore the same clothes a lot, but still a good student) and now I'm the first in my family to go to college. I'm making my life better than how it use to be when I was a kid. Things change that's all, and the past, with all of it's dollar store shoes, is all behind me now.

5 kids was a lot for my mother, but she did it, and I'm glad for it.

Destai
10-31-2005, 05:21 PM
I'm the last of 5 kids. Just my dad worked and it was a low paying job. We were really poor. The average household had just 2 kids, so I was very much an extra. I probably should have been aborted by the logic that if you're poor you shouldn't have children to bring them into a world poor.

But you know what, things are better now. I've always been glad that I'm alive and not dead. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this this sort of history.I think the logic is its understandable if your parents didnt want that extra financial pressure. If stopping a fetus from developing into a person is wrong then why is someone wearing a condomn or a couple who decide not to have kids mich better?

*__*)
10-31-2005, 05:31 PM
That's what the Catholic church believes. I'm not Catholic, but I follow many of it's teachings.

After all, God did say, "Be fruitful, and multiply."
Furthermore, there are a few things which God hates, one is "hands which shed innocent blood" what blood is more innocent than that of an unborn child?

bipper
10-31-2005, 05:33 PM
I am so against this it is not funny. I hate the subject overall.

I love the prochoice stance. I am prochoice, so if you want to grab a gun and blow out someone's brains, go right ahead. I just never really got that argument.

I feel the same way about stem cell research. I feel it is about the same as an abortion. A life should never be ended from greed, or stupidity.

Bipper

RPJesus
10-31-2005, 05:33 PM
It's not about how cute babies are. They are real people! If it was all about cuteness then a whole lot of people here would have been aborted long ago.
Actually, the thing that you are allowed to kill, is not a real person. It is just an embryo. It has the potential of becoming a real person, but is not.

I think that whether it's right or not depends on the situation. Say if you've been raped, and you're pregnant, it's alright to have an abortion. I do think that, if they can, they should give birth and either keep or put the child up for adoption, but they're not wrong for not doing that. It wasn't at all their fault. If it was a mother far too young, and the birth could kill her, I'd think her a very stupid girl. It would be irresponsible, but she should be allowed an abortion. If they'll both be fine (the situation CaZ gave) I'd still say she was daft for ever getting pregnant, but an abortion wouldn't be so terribly bad in the circumstances. If a woman just can't be bothered, I don't really know. I'd say it would be right for her to have the baby, but I don't know how wrong she'd be for not having it. It's too complicated, really. It's circumstantial. And too confusing too give a definite answer of what would be right or wrong. You have to consider everything, not just what you want to see. Ya dig, Cait?

Destai
10-31-2005, 05:35 PM
That's what the Catholic church believes. I'm not Catholic, but I follow many of it's teachings.

After all, God did say, "Be fruitful, and multiply."
Furthermore, there are a few things which God hates, one is "hands which shed innocent blood" what blood is more innocent than that of an unborn child?But I dont consider a fetus a person. Its just about to become one. Its about as alive as a carrot.

I think its weird that someone could eat meat but find abortion wrong.

Raistlin
10-31-2005, 05:40 PM
I think the choices in this poll are misleading. No, I don't think abortion is good. No, I don't think it's necessary, and no I wouldn't ever reccomend an abortion.

However, you cannot <i>force</i> someone to accept your version of morality. You cannot force someone to carry a burden they are unwilling to carry. You cannot force someone to do anything.

You can only force someone <i>not</i> to do something (as in, police forcing you not to steal something). A baby, until such time as it can live on its own, is not alive by any rational definition, and is, in essence, a parasite. So while I do not agree with abortion, I fully agree with the woman's right to her own life, until such time as the baby has a life of its own, by an objective definition (I fully support the partial-birth abortion ban).

Karl
10-31-2005, 05:41 PM
i think abortion should have to be debated in court b4 it happens, if some hooker gets pregnant its her own problem, but if some normal person gets pregnant cuz of a broken condom or faulty birth control it should b considered

also for everyone who is against it, the baby may die but would u rather have it b tortured with a terrible life with unfit parents who wont give up to adoption?

Ohhh
10-31-2005, 05:45 PM
instead of abortion is good.. you should hav put something like abortion is acceptable under certain circumstance or something

The Summoner of Leviathan
10-31-2005, 05:48 PM
I am prochoice, but I do not see it as a strictly pro or against thing. There are so many influencing factors that it to take one side completely is not ignore anything thata would be in the grey area. What if the child's life endangered that of the mother? Though it may be rare with modern medicine, there can be times when giving birth to a child might result in the death of the mother. What then? Let the mother die? I honestly think it would be up to the couple, eyt the final choice would be in the hands of the mother. Afterall it is her own life she is choosing.

By no means do I support abortion as a form of birth control, but sometimes it is an option that needs to be avaible. That is why I think there need to be a study of each case when the mother is seeking abortion. The doctor, the mother, and the family have to decide what is the best thing.

To me, once the zygote is formed, it is alive. So that is why I am not wholely for the idea of abortion, yet I understand there are times when it is seems to be the better of two evils. I think the choice lays mostly in the female for she is the one who is the most affected.

SOrry for my confused thoughts. I hope at least my point is gotten.

GunbladeMaster
10-31-2005, 05:49 PM
i say its ok
cas if the woman is young and cant afford or cant take care of a baby now
than she should get the abortion

so wat if the baby dies
if its in its first months in the womb than does it really matter?

Alive-Cat
10-31-2005, 05:50 PM
you would be called Dead-Man if you're mother had aborted you.

It's not about how cute babies are. They are real people! If it was all about cuteness then a whole lot of people here would have been aborted long ago.

Well, don't bring ME into it, because death would be quite nice.
But I think women do have the right at abort them, because they are THEIR babies. But I have two opinions on it:
Women have the right.
But I don't think they should be allowed to do it, whether they have the right or not.

Destai
10-31-2005, 05:51 PM
Sorry but in response to a few interesting posts in this thread if I was a single woman who enjoyed having sex I'd be freaking pissed if a jury was telling me wether or not I would be forced to give birth or have a child. Besides, most woman dont go through with abortions anyway and those that do probably have good reason. Either way its mostly the womans business anyway and partly the fathers.

Zante
10-31-2005, 05:56 PM
I don't think abortion is good, but I think the woman should have the choice do to so.

Little Miss Awesome
10-31-2005, 06:16 PM
Just to say this, even though I'm not for abortion, I think it is better than not offering abortions at all in a way. Before abortions were legalized women still got abortions from backstreet abortionists, this could kill not only the baby, but it could sterilize or even kill the mother too, as women often got infections. Women even carried out abortions in such horrific ways as getting their other children to stand on their stomachs. Making something illegal doesn't mean it won't happen!
I just wanted to say this, I know it seems harsh, but it's true, you can't stop anything people want!

Psychotic
10-31-2005, 06:20 PM
It doesn't affect me, so I couldn't care less. Kill it, keep it alive, put it on a horse and make it into a little jockey...do whatever the hell you want with your foetus. Except feed it to me.

Jess
10-31-2005, 06:27 PM
I think that if you are too young to support the baby, not financially stable or just the fact that they do not want a child, and will not love it then abortion is the best option.
If you get pregnant, then you should only have the baby - if your prepared to give your love, your time and money towards the baby.
If the baby isn't going to have a good life thats worth living, its better off not having the life - besides during the time of the abortion the fetus is not actually human, which has already been covered.

Breine
10-31-2005, 06:32 PM
The choices in the poll are very black and white, there is not really "grey" answers... if you know what I mean, but anyways...

... I think abortion is allright in the first weeks of the pregnancy. If the mother has her reasons for not keeping her child, then let her get an abortion, before the baby reaches an age where it is inhuman to get rid of it.

tastetherainbow
10-31-2005, 06:45 PM
I think abortion is wrong in a way.Even they didn't want the baby they could let someone else adopt it.I think the baby would want to live,but it is their baby so they do have a choice.

ff7+ff10 gurl 100
10-31-2005, 06:47 PM
I think that its not bad to have an abortion but i still think its a little wrong. After its already developed and then you should give it up to adoption but if it has a life already its kind of like murder.

Ace Protorney
10-31-2005, 06:55 PM
I disagree with abortion. However, I am not against it. Personally, I feel adoption is just as good, if not better than performing abortion. The problem with abortion is that it is killing, when the would-be mother is several months pregnant. If one is going for abortion, might as well do it before the fetus becomes functionable.

Dreddz
10-31-2005, 06:58 PM
Mothers choice, if she dont want to have it let her, I'd sue If I was put in the situation that I cant give up my baby. But if its too late, and the baby had developed enough, I would think the mother should give it away .......

War Angel
10-31-2005, 07:02 PM
I can't really vote in this poll.

I think abortion is a bad thing, but I'm for it. I don't think it should abused, but nobody should be a parent if they don't want to.. and no baby should be born to parents who didn't plan his\her birth and don't want him\her.

RPJesus
10-31-2005, 07:02 PM
The choices in the poll are very black and white, there is not really "grey" answers... if you know what I mean...
That's because it's maker is black and white. So, a tip to cait Sith; don't ask for opinions (or onions, for that matter) if you will only refuse to accept the one's given. Alsoliol:

Dole: Abortions for all!
Crowd: Boo!
Dole: Alright then... abortions for none!
Crowd: Boo!
Dole: Hmm... abortions for some, mini-ature American flags for others!
Crowd: [cheer]!

bipper
10-31-2005, 07:16 PM
Life should never be taken away from a human being. If one must sacrifice 9 months, and then set the baby up for adoption - so be it. It is better than running away from the issue by killing an innosent.

Bipper

Kamiko
10-31-2005, 07:18 PM
I believe that as soon as conception occurs, that baby is a person too and has rights.
I wish there was some way to take the baby out but still let it be born.
I don't agree with it but I know that it's scary when you're a teenager and to judge is a bit cruel.

*__*)
10-31-2005, 07:19 PM
That's because it's maker is black and white. So, a tip to cait Sith; don't ask for opinions (or onions, for that matter) if you will only refuse to accept the one's given.
<!--
Perhaps I am black and white. Here is why: CAUTION- pictures of a disturbing nature follow, if you do not want to see what abortion is all about then do not look!

http://www.abortiontruth.com/images/abortion/35.jpghttp://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/new-actual-abortion.jpghttp://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/TX-baby%20parts.jpg
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/10week/03_10.jpghttp://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/more8.jpghttp://www.preciouslives.org/images/500.jpg

-->
There it is in living color folks. It's not pretty, and it's not nice. The very last one is what the others were suppost to be - a born baby.

those images are absolutely inappropriate to post at these forums, whether they support your point or not. -eestlinc

RPJesus
10-31-2005, 07:34 PM
That's not abortion at all. It's a picture of a baby. Babies are not allowed to be killed. Just embryo, which are barely human, as I've said. I didn't at any point make out that I liked the death of babies, just that you have to consider the whole situation, not what you want to see. And other people's opinions. Besides, what you said didn't even make sense. A baby doesn't justify the over-simplification of your arguments.

Little Miss Awesome
10-31-2005, 07:36 PM
Like I said, you do make a strong point, but these pictures, horrific as they are aren't going to make people change their minds, some people would see these foetuses only as parasites. I could easily post pictures of starving children with kwashiorkor, but I am not going to.
I really don't think those pictures should be posted on EoFF...

Shlup
10-31-2005, 07:37 PM
I don't particularly have a problem with killing people that no one'll miss. I wouldn't do it, but it doesn't bother me as long as it's done very early in the pregnancy.

Sasquatch
10-31-2005, 07:40 PM
I'm very strongly pro-life. Because I think babies, whether they're born or not, are real people. If you're Christian, the Bible says that God knew you while you were still in the womb, and had plans for your life. That verse alone leaves no room for a Christian pro-choice stance. Even without a religious doctrine, unborn babies still have heartbeats, fingerprints, facial structure, internal organs, all within the first few weeks of conception.

Most abortions aren't cases of incest, rape, or risk of injury to the mother or child. The vast majority (93%) are cases of mere convenience. As in, "I'm going to kill my baby because I don't feel like being pregnant." Though I don't support the option of abortion in cases of rape or incest, I fully support the option in any case where there is significant risk to the mother and/or child if the child is carried to full term. That, and only that, situation is one in which the option of abortion should be acceptable.

The primary alternative, of course, is adoption. There are four times as many parents on the waiting list to adopt children than there are abortions every year. So there goes the "what if they can't raise it right" chance.

Not to mention, the father of the baby, in nearly all cases, has no say in the decision to end the life of his child. The child is not the mother's alone, and if you want to consider it some sort of "property" that the mother can do what they wish with, realize that the father should also have a say in the life of his own child.

It's just a clump of cells, you say? What's the difference between a clump of cells inside the womb and a clump of cells outside the womb? You try to call one a human being, and the other absolutely nothing? It doesn't work like that. Not one of us is any more than a clump of cells. Sure, some of us have more cells than others, but there's no difference besides that -- we're big clumps of cells.

There are thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands, of cases in which mothers who had abortions later realized that they could not have children when they wanted to. Who knows how many cases of abortions leading to further problems there have been.

I had other things to say, but can't remember them. I'm sure there'll be more later.

Crop
10-31-2005, 07:44 PM
Im for it, hwat if the mother didnt want a child and had been raped? Or couldnt support the child, they have the right to abort the child bfore it has matured enough.

*__*)
10-31-2005, 08:07 PM
That's not abortion at all. It's a picture of a baby. Babies are not allowed to be killed. Just embryo, which are barely human, as I've said.

An embreyo is: In humans, the prefetal product of conception from implantation through the eighth week of development.

In the United States you can have an abortion into the second trimester, well after the embryonic stage, and that is depicted in some of those pictures.

DMKA
10-31-2005, 08:22 PM
I wish I was aborted, and therefore think abortions should be issued by the government after the first child. Abortion is good and I envy the ones who had the priviledge to be aborted.

Shoden
10-31-2005, 08:39 PM
Nothing wrong with it, I don't know why a bunch of human rights psychos protest about freedom of choice.


It's up to the Woman not doctors, nurses, surgeons or psychos.

Traitorfish
10-31-2005, 08:55 PM
OK, Cait Sith, you're one sick monkey. Showing mutilated corpses doesn't prove you're point or make you more right (although maybe more right-wing), it makes you an exploitative sicko!!!
Exploitative, yes. You're exploiting these dead babies to force you're chauvanistic, fascist veiws onto everyone else.
[Fascist- Believes that they are better than everyone else and can force their self-righteous veiws down everyone else's throat]

The only real pro-life argument is that it kills a potential life. It is no more alive than a fungus, let alone that pig you had for lunch. But, using contraceptives ends potential lives. In fact, not having sex at all ends potential lives. So, any situation in which women are not constantly pregnant is 'murder'. Admittedly, that is precisely the opinion of the Catholic Church, but that doesn't justify such sick chauvanism (has any else notced how so many pro-life campaigners are male?).
What I never understand is why it's the pro-life right-wingers who approve the murder of criminals, communists, muslims, foreigners, and anyone else at all 'un-american'. Can you explain this? I don't see how an 8-year old, fullt an unqestionably alive Iraqi child has less right to life than a six-week old, unformed blob of cells.

As for my stance on abortion, I put it in the 'Erm...' pile. I don't think peope should do it (put that down to my catholic up-bringing), but I don't think it's my place to tell them. Other things in this pile are marijuana, alcohol and over-eating. I can point out waht they're doing wrong, or voice my opinion, but I can't always force my views down everyone else's throats.
Although, abortions after the first trimester are sick, naughty, evil and wrong. By the time it's a feoutus, it's too late to kill it. That's just plain wrong. (In the UK abortion is only legal in the first trimester.)

*__*)
10-31-2005, 09:15 PM
My abortion pics were taken down, ah well, just google it if you want to see it for yourself, I'll admit that it is too gruesome to be seen here or anywhere. But never ever be afraid to see the truth, now matter how disturbing it is


OK, Cait Sith, you're one sick monkey. Showing mutilated corpses doesn't prove you're point or make you more right (although maybe more right-wing), it makes you an exploitative sicko!!!

Traitorfish, how dare you! :mad2:

Exploitative, yes. You're exploiting these dead babies to force you're chauvanistic, fascist veiws onto everyone else.
[Fascist- Believes that they are better than everyone else and can force their self-righteous veiws down everyone else's throat]

Hmm........................................

The only real pro-life argument is that it kills a potential life. It is no more alive than a fungus, let alone that pig you had for lunch. But, using contraceptives ends potential lives.

Life: The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
........Fetus' can do those things, except for reproduse, but even children as old as 10 can't do that.

In fact, not having sex at all ends potential lives. So, any situation in which women are not constantly pregnant is 'murder'. Admittedly, that is precisely the opinion of the Catholic Church, but that doesn't justify such sick chauvanism (has any else notced how so many pro-life campaigners are male?).
What I never understand is why it's the pro-life right-wingers who approve the murder of criminals, communists, muslims, foreigners, and anyone else at all 'un-american'. Can you explain this? I don't see how an 8-year old, fullt an unqestionably alive Iraqi child has less right to life than a six-week old, unformed blob of cells.

Although I am strongly pro-life and consider myself right-wing, I never ever aprove the murder of anyone, I actually have a thread here about the death penalty in which I am against it as a means of punishment.

As for my stance on abortion, I put it in the 'Erm...' pile. I don't think peope should do it (put that down to my catholic up-bringing), but I don't think it's my place to tell them. Other things in this pile are marijuana, alcohol and over-eating. I can point out waht they're doing wrong, or voice my opinion, but I can't always force my views down everyone else's throats.
Although, abortions after the first trimester are sick, naughty, evil and wrong. By the time it's a feoutus, it's too late to kill it. That's just plain wrong. (In the UK abortion is only legal in the first trimester.)

I didn't know that. I agree with you, it is just plain wrong.

eestlinc
10-31-2005, 09:18 PM
We can't have those pictures on this forum, as it is both at -least-somewhat family oriented, and also many of us view the site at school or work where such content could be problematic.

Traitorfish
10-31-2005, 10:07 PM
My abortion pics were taken down, ah well, just google it if you want to see it for yourself, I'll admit that it is too gruesome to be seen here or anywhere. But never ever be afraid to see the truth, now matter how disturbing it is
You're talking rubbish. You can't just show shocking pictures. That's cowardly- "Oh look! Icky! I'm right! Hurrah!"
Besides, those pictures were disturbing. If you'd used links with fair warning, fair enough, but you can't soil our beloved forum with your grossness.
OK, in answer to you're stuff (you can't work quotes):
You're being over precise. Besides, kids can re-produce. Their cells re-produce. That counts.
But, I value the rights of living people more than the theoretical rights of potential people. For example, the people that were never even conceived. I don't value them. Does that mean I approve of murder?



We can't have those pictures on this forum, as it is both at -least-somewhat family oriented, and also many of us view the site at school or work where such content could be problematic.
Thanks.

Yooniece
10-31-2005, 10:13 PM
Hah. Pandora's Box.

Regardless of what I personally feel about terminating a potential life, I, and everyone else in this thread, has no jurisdiction over what a woman can or cannot do with her body. Ultimately, it is her choice, and even if she is legally prevented in obtaining an abortion in a clinic, she still can find a way to scrape that fetus out of her. I'd rather offer that freedom, along with the morality issues that go along with it (which is that person's burden/responsibility to deal with) than try to repress and imprison a woman's choice within her own body.

*__*)
10-31-2005, 10:22 PM
We can't have those pictures on this forum, as it is both at -least-somewhat family oriented, and also many of us view the site at school or work where such content could be problematic.

My next topic for discussion: The problem with censorship;)

Faris
10-31-2005, 10:25 PM
I don't really care. People can do whatever they want.

nik0tine
10-31-2005, 10:30 PM
At this moment in time I do not feel that it is right to illegalize abortion. However, abortions should NOT be carried out by the state.

And am I the only one who thinks that a 14 year old girl should NOT be required to inform her folks about her abortion? If she's getting one, I don't see a problem with her parents not knowing.

Spiffing Cheese
10-31-2005, 10:32 PM
I think it's quite hard to have a true opinion on abortion - the fact is, you don't know whether you'd have the same opinion you do now if you found yourself in a situation where abortion was an option.

I don't really have a problem with abortion.

Lenna
10-31-2005, 10:38 PM
I believe that abotion is there for certain purpose. When abused it is wrong.

I know that some people make mistakes, but others dont. If they are in an education which they have chosen to do by free will, then they should be given the opportunity to continue that education. Punishing them by making them have a baby, miss college/uni/school for the purpose of a baby, when they don't want it, is hardly fair. Regardless of the circumstances.

Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but when a baby comes along, it's there for life. Even in adoption. If you keep the baby you have to experience the struggle of 9 months with your education (education is my main view atm) Where as with an abortion at an early stage you have the chance to choose when you want to have a family in your life. Forcing someone to have a baby is unfair. Even with adoption it's still there for that amount of time.

Rye
10-31-2005, 10:41 PM
Eh, I'm pro-choice (you know, in case of rape and if the person is really young), but I wouldn't do it myself, I wouldn't be able to live with it. :(

*__*)
10-31-2005, 10:42 PM
I know there are people who don't have opinions and don't really care. But did any of you know that there have been more than a few people who have actually survived their abortions? I found this one online, in it she says "I am happy to be alive. I almost died. Every day I thank God for life."

I think you may have an oppinion after you read about some people who have survived abortion.

http://members.aol.com/doublemynt/survivor.html

It's unfair not to let someone like this live.

Raistlin
10-31-2005, 10:45 PM
Partial-birth abortion is wrong, yes - when the baby is capable of living on its own. That doesn't mean abortion in the first trimester is.

Sasquatch
10-31-2005, 11:36 PM
Remembered what else I wanted to say.


Before abortions were legalized women still got abortions from backstreet abortionists, this could kill not only the baby, but it could sterilize or even kill the mother too, as women often got infections.
My opinion is, if they try to kill somebody else, they take the chance of having something bad happen to them, like such infections, sterilization, etc. If I try to enter your house and attack you, and you hurt me, I have no right to complain because I got what was coming to me. It's that simple.


OK, Cait Sith, you're one sick monkey. Showing mutilated corpses doesn't prove you're point or make you more right (although maybe more right-wing), it makes you an exploitative sicko!!!

Shock value.


Exploitative, yes. You're exploiting these dead babies to force you're chauvanistic, fascist veiws onto everyone else.

Just as you're exploiting these "poor" or "victimized" or "unfortunate" women who are "burdened" withan unwanted pregnancy to "force" your views of the acceptance of child murder onto everyone else. A pot and a kettle come to mind.


[Fascist- Believes that they are better than everyone else and can force their self-righteous veiws down everyone else's throat]
"Fascist" has become a liberal keyword to use against anybody they disagree with, so you're not winning anything there. (Typically, if you back them into a corner enough with facts and they're really losing, they'll bring out "nazi".) And just as anybody does (or does not) "force their self-righteous views down everyone else's throat", you do the same, by trying to force everybody to accept YOUR view of such topics like abortion, capital punishment, etc.


The only real pro-life argument is that it kills a potential life.
Actually, no, you're wrong -- there are plenty of pro-life arguments, including father's rights, molestation and incest hiding, and the obvious danger of abortions. And, no, most pro-lifers agree that it's not killing potential life, it's taking life. And even if you don't think an unborn child is alive, it WILL BE. It doesn't have the "potential", it will become a living person, given time. Even if you don't believe unborn children are alive -- first of all, you have a demented meaning of "alive", but second of all -- you can't compare it to, say, a vehicle in the middle of an assembly line, because in nine months that vehicle will still be there, half-finished, waiting for something to be done. That's still only if you would degrade human life enough to compare it with an automobile.


It is no more alive than a fungus
Actually, fungi are alive. Try again.


but that doesn't justify such sick chauvanism (has any else notced how so many pro-life campaigners are male?).
Bringing out the "male chouvanism" line? That didn't take long. And by the way, there are countless pro-life campaigners that are female, including women who've had abortions. It strikes closer to home for females, obviously.


What I never understand is why it's the pro-life right-wingers who approve the murder of criminals, communists, muslims, foreigners, and anyone else at all 'un-american'. Can you explain this?
First of all, we "eeeevil right-wingers" don't "approve of the murder of criminals, communists, muslims, foreigners, and anyone else at all 'un-american'[sic]". Second of all, there's a difference between killing and murdering.


I don't see how an 8-year old, fullt an unqestionably alive Iraqi child has less right to life than a six-week old, unformed blob of cells.
A.) By six weeks, the "blob of cells" has form, basic body function, and a heartbeat.
B.) 8-year-old Iraqi children aren't targetted, and measures are taken, sometimes by endangering more American lives, to prevent innocent casualties in every situation.
C.) Even if Iraqi children were targetted, there have been exponentially more abortions than Iraqi children killed during OIF.

GooeyToast
10-31-2005, 11:47 PM
If she don't want no baby, then she should'nt have no baby

Sasquatch
10-31-2005, 11:55 PM
If she don't want no baby, then she shouldn't be stupid enough to have unprotected sex when she knows she don't want no baby, or she should be responsible enough to let the poor child live with another set of parents instead of making it pay for her "inconvenience" of pregnancy with its life.

edczxcvbnm
11-01-2005, 12:21 AM
Abortion is just another preventative measure as far as I am concerned. Now I have 2 funny things to post.

1) remember that episode of south park where Ms Cartman was trying to get 40th term abortions legalized? Yeah. That was funny.

2) http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2005/20051017l.jpg

Kirobaito
11-01-2005, 12:28 AM
Abortion is something I will never agree with. I consider it murder. And like Sasquatch said, it's much more than simply not wanting a child - it's the fact that people are having unprotected sex even though they don't want a child that ticks me off, and then taking the easy way out by murdering the creature they created.

(on a side note, if one were to assume the likelihood that more liberals than conservatives have abortions done, which I don't think should be much of a stretch to assume, think about the number of eligible voters for the Democratic party who have been murdered...enough to elect Gore in 2000? More than likely.)

About the (il)legalization of abortion...abortion is something I find morally distressing and wrong, however, I'm not sure if it's the government's position to decide what is or isn't morally wrong in this manner.

*__*)
11-01-2005, 12:32 AM
(on a side note, if one were to assume the likelihood that more liberals than conservatives have abortions done, which I don't think should be much of a stretch to assume, think about the number of eligible voters for the Democratic party who have been murdered...enough to elect Gore in 2000? More than likely.)

OG! That hit me like a brick. Whoa. Good point.

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 12:32 AM
About the (il)legalization of abortion...abortion is something I find morally distressing and wrong, however, I'm not sure if it's the government's position to decide what is or isn't morally wrong in this manner.

As related, how is it the government's position to say murdering an adult is wrong? We all have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Except children of pro-choice mothers, anyway.

Hawkeye
11-01-2005, 12:37 AM
Could someone please give me the definition of sex?

I rest my case. If you dont want babies, dont have sex. Simple as that. Abortion is wrong.

nik0tine
11-01-2005, 12:39 AM
Could someone please give me the definition of sex?The act of fornicatin'??

The Summoner of Leviathan
11-01-2005, 12:55 AM
Now are we talking about sex the verb, noun, etc..?

Also anal, oral and penal-vaginal are the most accepted acts of sex, yet some people would consider masturbation sex too.

Anyways my point is people assume too much that sex means penal-vaginal penetration.

Neco Arc
11-01-2005, 01:00 AM
yes i can:

sex noun (plural sexes)
1 each of the 2 groups(male and female) into which living things are placed according to their functions in the process of reproduction.
2 the instinct that causes members of the two sexes to be attracted to one another.
3 sexual intercourse. [from Latin secus = division]

Samuraid
11-01-2005, 01:04 AM
My thoughts on the subject are the same as yours, cait sith.

ThroneofDravaris
11-01-2005, 01:18 AM
Wow, another topic that really should have gone in EoTW/EoEO, yet didn’t for some mysterious reason….

Anyway, abortion is one of those topics that…doesn’t really effect me, thus I don’t have much of an opinion on it. A young girl has the right to live her own life, but perhaps she gives up that right when she acts like an animal and starts f@#$ing people without protection (that does not include rape, obviously). Then again, what kind of upbringing is a child going to get from a whorish 14 year old? Perhaps it would have been better if it was never born. But then, perhaps it is better to have lived in misery than not having lived at all. But this miserable existence is going to make others miserable blar blar blar, debate goes on.

Personally, I’m leaning towards the ‘pro-abortion’ side of the debate, yet I’m also for the ‘anti-stupidity’ side of it as well.

My honest opinion? Apart from not caring a whole deal?

…Kill stupid people? I don’t know, do what ever the hell you want….

Raistlin
11-01-2005, 01:28 AM
As related, how is it the government's position to say murdering an adult is wrong? We all have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Except children of pro-choice mothers, anyway.
We all have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, but an embryo without a developed brain and with less reaction capability of a blade of grass is not capable of either.

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 01:48 AM
A young girl has the right to live her own life, but perhaps she gives up that right when she acts like an animal and starts f@#$ing people without protection (that does not include rape, obviously). Then again, what kind of upbringing is a child going to get from a whorish 14 year old? Perhaps it would have been better if it was never born. But then, perhaps it is better to have lived in misery than not having lived at all.

Then why not give it up for adoption, so parents who actually want a child could raise it to a normal life?


We all have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, but an embryo without a developed brain and with less reaction capability of a blade of grass is not capable of either.

By the same "logic", mentally handicapped people have no rights, either.

DMKA
11-01-2005, 01:52 AM
(on a side note, if one were to assume the likelihood that more liberals than conservatives have abortions done, which I don't think should be much of a stretch to assume, think about the number of eligible voters for the Democratic party who have been murdered...enough to elect Gore in 2000? More than likely.)
Yes, because we all KNOW that children grow up to the voting age and agree with anything and everything their parents think politically. :greenie:

ThroneofDravaris
11-01-2005, 02:02 AM
Then why not give it up for adoption, so parents who actually want a child could raise it to a normal life?


Because childbirth is painful? I don’t know, I don’t have a uterus…

fire_of_avalon
11-01-2005, 02:15 AM
Nix the targetted sarcasm in this thread if you want to continue discussing the issue.

My personal stance on abortion is that it's wrong. But there are a lot of wrong things in the world, and I can't fix them. No one can fix irresponsible people, violent people, or selfish people.

However, I do feel the father's rights should be included when discussing the possibility of abortion. Contrary to popular belief, it's NOT just part of a woman's body. It takes a partnership to create the lump of cells, so I think the other half of that partnership desrves to have their ideas and opinions heard.

Secondly, I think Planned Parenthood needs to be monitored very carefully. Procedure states that a woman is to be told of all possible alternatives to abortion, including financial aid, free parenting courses, adoption etc. However, there are many Planned Parenthood nurses who have bypassed all of that and go straight into what an abortion is. I don't know this from personal experience, but I do know this from the experience of someone very, very close to me.

Finally, what I believe most powerfully of all, is that abortion isn't a topic you can just see in black and white. To be honest, regardless of what side the people in this thread have taken, they have NOT been completely black and white. Everyone has included the shades of grey, and I think that should be a big hint to all of us that this issue is far more complicated than morality and necessity.

edczxcvbnm
11-01-2005, 02:23 AM
By the same "logic", mentally handicapped people have no rights, either.

If those handicapped people have the capacity of a blade of grass then they are not going to live long either. The whole Terri Schiavo thing would never have been an issue if they didn't have the money to pay for her to be alive as long as she was because with out money the hospitals and government really could have given a damn and she would have been cut off and died.

The only reason I brought her into the situation is because she is the most well known handicapped blade of grass we all know.

Jebus
11-01-2005, 02:23 AM
I'm all for post-natal abortions for certain people. :D?

Seriously though. In the first term, the brain is not fully developed and is not able to survive outside the mother. It is a parasite, basically. I see nothing wrong with abortions in this stage, plus the stem cells are extremely valuable. (Yes, I know they can be created in a lab, but the more the merrier.)

fire_of_avalon
11-01-2005, 02:30 AM
Stem cells can also be taken from blood in the umbilical cord after birth. :)

Jebus
11-01-2005, 02:33 AM
Stem cells can also be taken from blood in the umbilical cord after birth. :)

Yeah, but no use letting the dead embryo go to waste, right?

Rye
11-01-2005, 02:44 AM
How I see it, to go into more detail, is that once the baby is developed, even slightly, it's developed. More likely than not, it will be born and it will become an adult. I would worry, what if, just what if, that baby would have been the person to cure cancer/AIDs/diabetes, or would have been an amazing musician, or even would have been someone's soul mate. You'd be depriving the world of someone who could be potentially amazing. They could be the person who says one nice thing to someone who is just about to blow their head off because they think no one cares, or they could be someone's parent. It's really a big "what if" and alternate demension thing that makes me really wonder.

Plus, personally, I don't think it's that hard to put up the kid for adoption. MAYBE if you're a 14 year old girl that was raped, I could see why you would opt for abortion (still though, I wonder...), but if it was your own dumb mistake, put the kid up for adoption. But, I dunno, like foa said, I'm very grey with this topic.

Why is this even in GC anyway? xD Is this part of a secret thought provoking thread scheme in GC that the mods coined due to Big D and his threads?

Shiny
11-01-2005, 03:38 AM
I can understand why a women would want an abortion if she was raped. For all other reasons, no I can't understand.

FFX_fanatiq
11-01-2005, 03:53 AM
If you were raped or something
IM 100% sure that child will NOT have a loving family
being who the father is
so in that case 100% for it

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 05:57 AM
If you were raped or something
IM 100% sure that child will NOT have a loving family
being who the father is
so in that case 100% for it

Not everybody who got pregnant from a rape grows to hate their own child. Some are above that. So that doesn't mean the child wouldn't have a loving family, as the mother could move past the rape and raise the child herself, or with an adoptive father.

Not to mention, that's why they have a process called ADOPTION. If you don't want your baby, for whatever reason, you can give it up, and let a mother (and father) who DO want the child to have it.

DMKA
11-01-2005, 06:02 AM
Why, may I ask, would you want to bring another kid into the world just to throw it up for adoption? Until the child is adopted it'll be in that horrendous system (which, mind you, I was in for eight years of my life), and frankly, I think killing the kid would be a favor over that.

Abortion saves children from having to go through the misery and suffering that is life. Abortion is a gift.

ThroneofDravaris
11-01-2005, 06:23 AM
Wow...ok...thanks for that. Talk about unusual use of the word 'gift'.

Jowy
11-01-2005, 06:37 AM
Honestly, I have kind of a mixed opinion on the subject:

Say, I impregnated my girlfriend. I would want the child to be put up for adoption. But since she is the one bearing the burden of pregnancy, I would agree and support her in the decision of an abortion.

However, in extenuating circumstances, such as rape, and drug abuse during pregnancy, I see no problem with it. While a child is a human being, it's usually born out of some type of love. If someone were to be raped, the child could cause psychological trauma to the mother, probably for the rest of her life. If the mother of the child was heavily into drugs, causing serious health problems for the child, I think it would be better for it to not be brought into the world with the burden of a terrible sickness or dysfunction in the body.

nik0tine
11-01-2005, 06:40 AM
(on a side note, if one were to assume the likelihood that more liberals than conservatives have abortions done, which I don't think should be much of a stretch to assume, think about the number of eligible voters for the Democratic party who have been murdered...enough to elect Gore in 2000? More than likely.)
Oh, but we didn't need them. Gore won that election anyway.:p

Rusty
11-01-2005, 07:24 AM
I think the only situation a woman should be given the choice to have an abortion is if she has been raped and become pregnant. It's not fair at all to expect a woman who has just been raped to bring up her rapist's child. I think first she should be encouraged to look at the other options -which are few- like adoption before she chooses abortion, but I would not condemn her for aborting the child if thats what she wanted.

Other than that, I don't agree with abortion. You get pregnant, you and the male involved have to deal with it. I say 'you and the male involved' because like they say, it takes two to tango.

ThroneofDravaris
11-01-2005, 08:40 AM
Lol, just noticed something; we can see who voted for what in this poll…

Yooniece
11-01-2005, 09:21 AM
I think the only situation a woman should be given the choice to have an abortion is if she has been raped and become pregnant.

Heh. The choice is hers, whether someone would grant it to her or not.

Out of curiosity for those who said that the father should have just as much say over the pregnancy... what if he said "no" even though she wanted an abortion?

If they went ahead and did it anyway, do you honestly believe that there should be laws punishing women for invoking a right that involves their body?

I honestly hope that one day the human race will mutate and men will become pregnant instead. The abortion rate would probably be fifty times higher and perhaps then most men will have a different perspective on the issue since it will be their bodies dealing with unwanted pregnancies. And stretch marks.

Rusty
11-01-2005, 12:36 PM
Heh. The choice is hers, whether someone would grant it to her or not.

Out of curiosity for those who said that the father should have just as much say over the pregnancy... what if he said "no" even though she wanted an abortion?

If they went ahead and did it anyway, do you honestly believe that there should be laws punishing women for invoking a right that involves their body?

I honestly hope that one day the human race will mutate and men will become pregnant instead. The abortion rate would probably be fifty times higher and perhaps then most men will have a different perspective on the issue since it will be their bodies dealing with unwanted pregnancies. And stretch marks.

I agree completely.

Little Miss Awesome
11-01-2005, 01:28 PM
Remembered what else I wanted to say.


My opinion is, if they try to kill somebody else, they take the chance of having something bad happen to them, like such infections, sterilization, etc. If I try to enter your house and attack you, and you hurt me, I have no right to complain because I got what was coming to me. It's that simple.
So your saying that if a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want to keep the baby, she deserves to die or get hurt? If thats the case, that's really ironic

ThroneofDravaris
11-01-2005, 01:32 PM
How is that ironic?

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 01:37 PM
So your saying that if a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want to keep the baby, she deserves to die or get hurt? If thats the case, that's really ironic

I'm saying if a woman wants to murder her baby, she takes with that decision the risk of something bad happening to her. Most women don't know all of the risks involved in abortion (because, conveniently, the risks usually aren't told to them), but even so, when you set out to murder a child, don't complain that something bad happened to you in the process. The way I figure, the more women sterilized during abortions, the better -- if you can't respect the life of that child, you shouldn't have the ability to bring another child into the world.


Heh. The choice is hers, whether someone would grant it to her or not.

According to current laws, and the views of society, the choice is hers. Both might change. And I don't see how it's anybody's choice to murder another person that's done absolutely nothing to deserve it.


Out of curiosity for those who said that the father should have just as much say over the pregnancy... what if he said "no" even though she wanted an abortion?

If they went ahead and did it anyway, do you honestly believe that there should be laws punishing women for invoking a right that involves their body?

I think women who get abortions should be punished, regardless. But in the case you're trying to convey, it would just be a civil suit, and yes, they deserve them. It's not just their body, it's the body of another person.


I honestly hope that one day the human race will mutate and men will become pregnant instead. The abortion rate would probably be fifty times higher and perhaps then most men will have a different perspective on the issue since it will be their bodies dealing with unwanted pregnancies. And stretch marks.

And I hope you people stop using tactics like sexism to convey your message. But I doubt that will ever happen.

Destai
11-01-2005, 01:41 PM
You use the word murder like its a real person. Its not. Its becoming one and its a different situation. The embryo/fetus cant feel the way you and I can and by the time its developed enough to be considered much more than a vegetable its illegal to have an abortion.

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 01:45 PM
You use the word murder like its a real person. Its not. Its becoming one and its a different situation. The embryo/fetus cant feel the way you and I can and by the time its developed enough to be considered much more than a vegetable its illegal to have an abortion.

Actually, yes, it can feel, react to changes in the environment, respond to stimuli, etc. Just like (wouldn't you know it) a little person. Which is why people consider it to be, well, a little person. It has a heartbeat, structure, nervous system, internal organs, you name it. Remember, you're also supporting the idea that anybody caring for somebody with a mental handicap should have the choice whether or not to have that person murdered.

Neco Arc
11-01-2005, 01:47 PM
You use the word murder like its a real person. Its not. Its becoming one and its a different situation. The embryo/fetus cant feel the way you and I can and by the time its developed enough to be considered much more than a vegetable its illegal to have an abortion.

yes technically thats right...

an embryo/foetus of a human is very similar to that of a chicken, lizard, frog and fish before definite human features appear...

*__*)
11-01-2005, 01:55 PM
Actually, yes, it can feel, react to changes in the environment, respond to stimuli, etc. Just like (wouldn't you know it) a little person. Which is why people consider it to be, well, a little person. It has a heartbeat, structure, nervous system, internal organs, you name it. Remember, you're also supporting the idea that anybody caring for somebody with a mental handicap should have the choice whether or not to have that person murdered.

That's right, there is scientific evidenct to prove this.
This is a little section from the internet:
Modern technology, including sonograms, E.E.G’s (measure brainwaves), and fiber-optic imaging has allowed us to learn that:

- activity in the thalamus area, where the brain’s pain center is located, can be measured between the eighth and tenth week of life,3

- the fetus reacts to sounds inside and outside the womb, even moving the hands to cover the ears in response to loud music, and hands or arms to cover the eyes in response to bright light stimuli often used in embryoscopy (in womb fiber-optic ‘video cameras’ for viewing the embryo and early fetus)

- At eight weeks, fetuses have been documented to respond to various stimuli against the skin including tickling

Destai
11-01-2005, 01:58 PM
Actually, yes, it can feel, react to changes in the environment, respond to stimuli, etc. Just like (wouldn't you know it) a little person. Which is why people consider it to be, well, a little person. It has a heartbeat, structure, nervous system, internal organs, you name it. Remember, you're also supporting the idea that anybody caring for somebody with a mental handicap should have the choice whether or not to have that person murdered.Of course its gonna react. Imagine how fast its growing. The ammount it can feel early on at the time when the abortion is carried out isnt anything like what you or I can feel so it cant be compared to that sortve murder. Most abortions are done extremely early in the pregnancy. Its preventing life from beginning. Not ending life in the middle of it.
The mental handicap part is an interesting argument that I havent thought about. Im not sure either that its fair to compare a handicapped person to a fetus/embryo. Personally I didnt think it made much difference wether Schiavo was alive or not.

ThroneofDravaris
11-01-2005, 02:12 PM
If it’s just a matter of unplugging someone…but then that isn’t on topic, is it?

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 02:48 PM
Of course its gonna react. Imagine how fast its growing. The ammount it can feel early on at the time when the abortion is carried out isnt anything like what you or I can feel so it cant be compared to that sortve murder. Most abortions are done extremely early in the pregnancy. Its preventing life from beginning. Not ending life in the middle of it.
The mental handicap part is an interesting argument that I havent thought about. Im not sure either that its fair to compare a handicapped person to a fetus/embryo. Personally I didnt think it made much difference wether Schiavo was alive or not.

It doesn't matter how much they can feel, only that they can feel. As Cait Sith pointed out, response to sounds, light, and also motion, pressure, and touch. Does it matter that they aren't as sensitive as you or I?

As for mentally handicapped. I don't think, in either case, anybody should be allowed to murder another innocent human being. Whether that person relies on a machine or a womb to survive.

edczxcvbnm
11-01-2005, 02:56 PM
As for mentally handicapped. I don't think, in either case, anybody should be allowed to murder another innocent human being. Whether that person relies on a machine or a womb to survive.

As I said before, if the person who relies on the machine doesn't have the funds to pay for it the state government, federal government or hostpital will just let them die. Unless you are advocating that the government pay fully for anyone on life support...which would be an insane waste of tax payer dollars.

*__*)
11-01-2005, 03:38 PM
Wow, another topic that really should have gone in EoTW/EoEO, yet didn’t for some mysterious reason….


You are right. But I knew many people would pay attention to it if it were here, but it should be moved to EoEO really.

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 04:00 PM
As I said before, if the person who relies on the machine doesn't have the funds to pay for it the state government, federal government or hostpital will just let them die. Unless you are advocating that the government pay fully for anyone on life support...which would be an insane waste of tax payer dollars.

The person doesn't have to be rich. Insurance will cover most of the bills, and there are multiple charitable organizations that will chip in for the rest of it. And I'm not just talking about people on 24-hour life support, I mean people like my grandmother who have to go in for dialisis every couple of days because their kidneys don't filter their blood anymore, or people who have to carry around an oxygen tank to breathe, or people who can't move without a wheelchair. Is it fair to say "they can't survive on their own, so they don't deserve to live", like you do concerning unborn children? What, "I don't want to carry you around, so f--- you, get out of my body"?



Wow, another topic that really should have gone in EoTW/EoEO, yet for some mysterious reason...You are right. But I knew many people would pay attention to it if it were here, but it should be moved to EoEO really.
Putting it in General means more responses, and after all, it's supposed to be policy not to move threads to EoEO or EOTW, I guess. Doesn't mean much, but still.

edczxcvbnm
11-01-2005, 04:50 PM
I was talking about people on 24 hour life support because that is what a 'baby' is on in the womb. The person that needs on O2 tank to live can still go around and support theirselves and do things for themselves. That is a bad comparision if that is what you are using. The only one that is a reasonable comparision is those on 24 hour life support.

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 04:52 PM
The person on an Oxygen tank cannot live without the tank. The person in a wheelchair cannot function without the wheelchair. They all rely on something (or somebody) else to keep them alive. Just like a child, whether it be born or unborn. It's a perfectly reasonable comparison.

edczxcvbnm
11-01-2005, 05:00 PM
No it isn't. They can not live without the tank but they can still go about their lives on their own at a slight disadvantage. The guy in the wheel chair can still go to the store and shop on his own. The baby can't move or do ANYTHING for itself. It is 100% reliant on where it is to stay alive. It can't hop out and go to the store. It can't hop out and talk to people.

That is why I say they are different. The baby is on life support...literally. Those you mentioned are not. It is debatable with the oxygen tank person but that is just getting enough O2. They can still breath on their own.

boris no no
11-01-2005, 05:07 PM
i'm being lazy and i'm not reading all this thread, plus i've heard it all before
ok think this. a university student, in the middle of their degree with everything ahead of them. one stupid drunk night out. she gets pregnant. should she ruin 20 odd years of her life caring for the child she dosnt want, knows ruined her future. thinking about what job she could of had, whether she could have a husband, no man will touch her with a child in the picture (its a common thing)
so some of you are saying that she should end her life there because of the joining of an egg and sperm, because of a mistake?
abortion should not be used as an excuse though, far too many young girls use it as an advantage. but still. its the womans body, not the mans that the baby grows in, her responsiblity.
this argument is old and noone will win it

Winter Nights
11-01-2005, 05:11 PM
i'm being lazy and i'm not reading all this thread, plus i've heard it all before
ok think this. a university student, in the middle of their degree with everything ahead of them. one stupid drunk night out. she gets pregnant. should she ruin 20 odd years of her life caring for the child she dosnt want, knows ruined her future. thinking about what job she could of had, whether she could have a husband, no man will touch her with a child in the picture (its a common thing)
so some of you are saying that she should end her life there because of the joining of an egg and sperm, because of a mistake?
abortion should not be used as an excuse though, far too many young girls use it as an advantage. but still. its the womans body, not the mans that the baby grows in, her responsiblity.
this argument is old and noone will win it
I'm gonna be even lazier and just quote this thread, giving it a quick "I agree".

Leeza
11-01-2005, 05:11 PM
It was also her <i>responsiblity</i> to use protection on that night, which she didn't. So it's not the baby that would be ruining her life, it's her own stupidity so the baby should not be blamed and made to pay. The least the baby deserves is to put up for adoption.

*__*)
11-01-2005, 05:12 PM
Some people will argue that they can't take care of it for some reason or another. Then give it up for adoption, it's that simple really.

boris no no
11-01-2005, 05:14 PM
It was also her <i>responsiblity</i> to use protection on that night, which she didn't. So it's not the baby that would be ruining her life, it's her own stupidity so the baby should not be blamed and made to pay. The least the baby deserves is to put up for adoption.
so from one night her life is gone? nah
and sometimes condoms split
sometimes the pill is not effective
sometimes the cap can slip
what if she was careful?
if i was in that situation i would not risk my future


Some people will argue that they can't take care of it for some reason or another. Then give it up for adoption, it's that simple really.
thats so hard to do. and how many children are actually adopted? theres only so much money governments can put into childrens homes and such

Old Manus
11-01-2005, 05:25 PM
Ethan Hunt didn't abort and his team got killed

*__*)
11-01-2005, 05:31 PM
How I see it, to go into more detail, is that once the baby is developed, even slightly, it's developed. More likely than not, it will be born and it will become an adult. I would worry, what if, just what if, that baby would have been the person to cure cancer/AIDs/diabetes, or would have been an amazing musician, or even would have been someone's soul mate. You'd be depriving the world of someone who could be potentially amazing. They could be the person who says one nice thing to someone who is just about to blow their head off because they think no one cares, or they could be someone's parent. It's really a big "what if" and alternate demension thing that makes me really wonder.


I too have thought of that. Just think of this, if Hironobu Sakaguchi had been aborted, we wouldn't even be here discussing this right now.

Winter Nights
11-01-2005, 05:32 PM
Ethan Hunt didn't abort and his team got killed
QFT.

Leeza
11-01-2005, 05:40 PM
<i>so from one night her life is gone? nah
and sometimes condoms split
sometimes the pill is not effective
sometimes the cap can slip
what if she was careful?
if i was in that situation i would not risk my future</i> ~ boris no no

Whatever. All I know is that if this is information that I know about a person, it really affects my feelings towards them and they do go down quite a few notches in my book. And there is a big difference between condoms breaking and <i>one stupid drunk night out. she gets pregnant.</i> If you make your bed, lie in it. Blaming a baby for what happens after <i>one stupid drunk night out</i> instead of taking responsibily for your own actions doesn't say much for one's character.

Winter Nights
11-01-2005, 05:44 PM
Cause we should all base our life decisions on what others might think of us. :rolleyes2

boris no no
11-01-2005, 05:45 PM
<i>so from one night her life is gone? nah
and sometimes condoms split
sometimes the pill is not effective
sometimes the cap can slip
what if she was careful?
if i was in that situation i would not risk my future</i> ~ boris no no

Whatever. All I know is that if this is information that I know about a person, it really affects my feelings towards them and they do go down quite a few notches in my book. And there is a big difference between condoms breaking and <i>one stupid drunk night out. she gets pregnant.</i> If you make your bed, lie in it. Blaming a baby for what happens after <i>one stupid drunk night out</i> instead of taking responsibily for your own actions doesn't say much for one's character.
i would so love to comment on that but i might get banned for being rude to a CK
its not stupid. maybe she could blame the baby after is born, hating it, never showing it love
what a wonderful future for them both

*__*)
11-01-2005, 05:45 PM
Whatever. All I know is that if this is information that I know about a person, it really affects my feelings towards them and they do go down quite a few notches in my book. And there is a big difference between condoms breaking and one stupid drunk night out. she gets pregnant. If you make your bed, lie in it. Blaming a baby for what happens after one stupid drunk night out instead of taking responsibily for your own actions doesn't say much for one's character. -Leeza

Exactly. Couldn't agree with you more.

Leeza
11-01-2005, 05:46 PM
<i>Cause we should all base our life decisions on what others might think of us. </i> - Autumn Rain

Of course not, but it sure does say a lot about a person.

<i>i would so love to comment on that but i might get banned for being rude to a CK
its not stupid. maybe she could blame the baby after is born, hating it, never showing it love
what a wonderful future for them both</i> - boris no no

If she gave it up for adoption she would have no reason to think of the baby again. It would be out of her life. But the baby <i>would</i> have a life.

Yamaneko
11-01-2005, 05:51 PM
I haven't read any of this thread except for the first post. My thoughts on abortion are that it's entirely up to the woman during the first trimester. During the second trimester she needs consent from either her parents or if she is married, her husband. During the last trimester, abortion should only be an option if the woman's health is in danger because of the baby.

Lindy
11-01-2005, 05:55 PM
Looking for a safe stance on abortion? Me neither.

Winter Nights
11-01-2005, 06:01 PM
While I myself would prefer the adoption course of action and would never consider abortion, I can see why that route would be taken. So if someone else wants to take that path, I say it's their business to do so.

So, I guess I'm ProChoice, but personally against abortion. If that makes any sense at all. o__O

RPJesus
11-01-2005, 06:06 PM
If I can just ask, all of you who are against abortion for the reason that it is 'murder', do you eat meat? Is that not murder? And, in many cases, did that animal not suffer before it was killed, just for a bit of cash?

Leeza
11-01-2005, 06:07 PM
I'm a vegetarian, RPJesus.

RPJesus
11-01-2005, 06:15 PM
Good good. So you're not in favour of killing at all. At least at you're not being hypocritcal, then. I mean, that's fine, really, 'cause there's nothing wrong with respecting life. If anything, it's good ;)

Yamaneko
11-01-2005, 06:46 PM
I know where Leeza is coming from. It's different for men, and even women who have never been pregnant.

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 06:59 PM
If I can just ask, all of you who are against abortion for the reason that it is 'murder', do you eat meat? Is that not murder? And, in many cases, did that animal not suffer before it was killed, just for a bit of cash?

Comparing human life to animals shows your disrespect for human life. And don't compare murder to killing anything, as there's a difference between kill and murder.


They can not live without the tank but they can still go about their lives on their own at a slight disadvantage. The guy in the wheel chair can still go to the store and shop on his own. The baby can't move or do ANYTHING for itself. It is 100% reliant on where it is to stay alive.

Just as people in wheelchairs are 100% reliant on their wheelchair for mobility, or most people with O2 tanks are 100% reliant on their tank, or people who need dialisis are 100% reliant on that dialisis to filter their blood. Without the Oxygen, without the wheelchair, without the dialisis, they would not survive. It's a life support system. Mentally handicapped, say people with Downs Syndrome, usually can't function without the assistance of a caretaker. With your "logic", the caretakers should be able to decide whether they want to continue caring for their patient or murder them to be rid of the inconvenience.


ok think this. a university student, in the middle of their degree with everything ahead of them. one stupid drunk night out. she gets pregnant. should she ruin 20 odd years of her life caring for the child she dosnt want, knows ruined her future. thinking about what job she could of had, whether she could have a husband, no man will touch her with a child in the picture (its a common thing)

One stupid drunk night out. One irresponsible drunk night out. She screwed up. She faces the consequences. Pretty simple. She knows she has a degree ahead of her, she knows she has thousands of dollars invested in her education, she should be smart enough (and responsible enough) to NOT compromise that with "one stupid drunk night out". Even if she has the child and keeps it, she can still continue her education, find a job, and get a husband (yes, single mothers DO marry again). If she doesn't want to "ruin her future"* by keeping the child, she can give it up for adoption. By your "logic", parents should be able to murder their children when they graduate high school, because paying for their college might screw up their retirement funds.

*How many parents will ever say that having children "ruined their future"?


and how many children are actually adopted?
Yes, the adoption program needs to be revamped. But usually, it's not nearly as bad as it's made out to be. And as I pointed out before, there are many more parents waiting to adopt children than there are abortions. Maybe more would be adopted if hundreds of thousands of children weren't slaughtered every month in abortion "clinics".

As little respect as I have for my biological mother, when she got pregnant in high school (not by my father), at least she had the decency to let the child live with parents who are happy to have it, instead of murdering it so she wouldn't have to bear the "inconvenience".

War Angel
11-01-2005, 07:02 PM
all of you who are against abortion for the reason that it is 'murder', do you eat meat? Is that not murder?
Animals cannot be murdered, only killed. 'Murder' is a term saved solely for humans.

Anyway, it makes me very mad to see self-righteous people who say they 'look down' upon someone, if they had the misfortune of having to commit abortion. Who the fook are you to judge, and make calls on other people's lives? Is it RIGHT to bring a baby to this world, when the parent is incapable of raising him\her? Is it RIGHT to give a child and his parents a life-time of misery, just because of some pseudo-religious pro-life crappy theories say a microscopic mass of cells is equivelant to a living, thinking and breathing human-being?

When a feutus is aborted and killed, in its most advanced stages, it is no more advanced or 'human' than a cockroach. It has a very simple blood-pump, very primitive lungs (if you could call those non-functioning breathing organs 'lungs'), no functioning brain, stumps where its limbs out to be... that's not human. Not yet. And so, it can be rid of, especially if letting it evolve would mean tremendous suffering for all those involved. No-body's killing babies - saying something like that is so very, very wrong and offensive, it borders in my eyes on slander, and its motives are stemmed in prejudice and ignorance.

Winter Nights
11-01-2005, 07:09 PM
Comparing human life to animals shows your disrespect for human life. And don't compare murder to killing anything, as there's a difference between kill and murder.


Animals cannot be murdered, only killed. 'Murder' is a term saved solely for humans.


Just to note, that's a matter of speculation, not fact. Most Animal Rights supporters would tend to disagree with you.

Not that I care. I love me some bacon. xD

Leeza
11-01-2005, 07:09 PM
<i>Anyway, it makes me very mad to see self-righteous people who say they 'look down' upon someone, if they had the misfortune of having to commit abortion.</i> ~ War Angel

After a <i>stupid drunk night out?</i>. Can't help myself.
A legitimate abortion that would put the mother's life in danger if she didn't have one? These are the cases that abortions are for and I sure wouldn't look down on anyone for doing that.

<i>Who the fook are you to judge, and make calls on other people's lives?</i> ~ War Angel

Everybody judges everyone else and they'd be lying if they say that they don't. You've also just judged me.

Winter Nights
11-01-2005, 07:17 PM
Everybody judges everyone else and they'd be lying if they say that they don't.
Who are you to be the judge of that??? :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:






Just couldn't resist. :p

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 07:22 PM
Just to note, that's a matter of speculation, not fact. Most Animal Rights supporters would tend to disagree with you.
Yes, most "Animal Rights" supporters also disrespect human life by putting more emphasis on animal life. It is shameful, very. People would protest against somebody eating meat or wearing fur, but support the "choice" of a mother to murder her own child.


Anyway, it makes me very mad to see self-righteous people who say they 'look down' upon someone, if they had the misfortune of having to commit abortion.
"...the misfortune of having to commit abortion"? What the hell is that? Nobody has the misfortune of having to commit murder. And nobody has to have an abortion, unless the mother's life is in danger. Which is the only way many of us support the option.


Who the fook are you to judge, and make calls on other people's lives?
Who the "fook" are you, or anybody else, to make the call to murder a baby?


No-body's killing babies - saying something like that is so very, very wrong and offensive, it borders in my eyes on slander, and its motives are stemmed in prejudice and ignorance.

Who the fook are you to judge
Well? How's that for ignorance?

bipper
11-01-2005, 07:23 PM
If I can just ask, all of you who are against abortion for the reason that it is 'murder', do you eat meat?

I even hunt. I have killed deer before! I obviosly kill only the larger, full grown deer. Would I kill a Do if I knew it was pregnant? no. Sides, as it was pointed out before, murder is for humans. Animals are for eating. (Btw plants feel pain too ;) )

I think people whom condone abortions should just wonder what it would be like to be killed before they could even experience any wonderful thing in the world. Before one could take that first breath of fresh air, and before they could even see thier mother's face. Wonder what you would do if you could of helped a kid, whom got hit by a car. Would you sit back and not care? Or does not seeing the victum make it ok?

I could not imagine loosing my children. I am so glad they are here. I have lost a child, and it is not easy by any rights. Intentional or not, the baby suffers.


We all have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, but an embryo without a developed brain and with less reaction capability of a blade of grass is not capable of either.

If I was indeed dumber than you, and I was not what you would see as an equal - would I be killed Before I could even have a chance to grow?

What if you went into a coma, and had a chance to come out? Then it must be ok to terminate you - as you have about as much reaction as an embryo would.

Look up the thread it EOTW stem cell reasearch.. embryos can feel pain, I provided several links to this topic. I beleive after three weeks a nervous system was present and so forth.

Bipper

Winter Nights
11-01-2005, 07:26 PM
Yes, most "Animal Rights" supporters also disrespect human life by putting more emphasis on animal life. It is shameful, very. People would protest against somebody eating meat or wearing fur, but support the "choice" of a mother to murder her own child.
:rolleyes2

Twas not looking to debate. Just pointing out to keep your arguments based on facts, not based on your opinion. Debates go much easier when it is fact vs fact.

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 07:30 PM
:rolleyes2

Twas not looking to debate. Just pointing out to keep your arguments based on facts, not based on your opinion. Debates go much easier when it is fact vs fact.

:p Realise this. Just voicing my disrespect for most "animal rights" groups.

And actually. "Murder" at www.dictionary.com: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Which means the "animal rights" activists have a skewed interpretation.

Winter Nights
11-01-2005, 07:36 PM
As I stated.. I love me some bacon. Just pointing out that there are other rules of thought.

In all honesty, I couldn't give a rat's ass. Let people do what people do. As long as they stay the fuck away from me, their business is their business.

Traitorfish
11-01-2005, 08:15 PM
I even hunt. I have killed deer before! I obviosly kill only the larger, full grown deer. Would I kill a Do if I knew it was pregnant? no. Sides, as it was pointed out before, murder is for humans. Animals are for eating. (Btw plants feel pain too ;) )

Err... what? you're already brutally and needlessly murdering a living creature for you're sadistic blood-sports, why would a pregnant deer have any more right to live? Wouldn't it count for double points or something? (I don't know how hunting works, I'm going to heaven).
And animals are not 'for eating'. I'm not a vegetarian, and have no problem with eating meat, but you don't have some sort of god-given right to kill animals. Unless you seubscribe to one of these Ann Coulter "God says 'Here's the earth. Take it, rape it, it's yours'" theories.


:p Realise this. Just voicing my disrespect for most "animal rights" groups.
Oh yeah, you're really adding to you're argument- "All life matters, except animals!" Yeah, go humans! No wait, why stop with animals? Why not gays or jews or blacks? Why not kill everyone? You're better than them! You're the glorious Aryan superman!
Hypocrit.



And actually. "Murder" at www.dictionary.com: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Abortions aren't nessecarilly "with malice". Besides, going into a country and purposefully bombing civilian areas despite it being a breach of International law (unlawful) seems to fit your definiton, but you're all for that kind of thing, right?



Which means the "animal rights" activists have a skewed interpretation.
The dictionary is not exactly a guide to morality. Besides, that's simply one definition. That's the activist's point- animals don't get the respect they deserve.

There's a lot of needless right-wing insanity going on here. The debate seems to have sunk to the usual "I'm right!" "But..." "I said I'm right, dammit!" "You have to..." "Shut up! I'm a conservative, that mean God likes me more than you!" "You have to consider..." "You can't tell me what to do!" "Just stop and think for a moment!" "NO! The President thinks for me!"
Admittedly, some pro-lifers are being reasonable (i.e. the vegetarian anti-death penalty ones) but some are just being hypocritical and ridiculous (the "let's eat meat then execute a mentally handicapped black man" ones).

Old Manus
11-01-2005, 08:19 PM
It's EotW all over again!

War Angel
11-01-2005, 08:38 PM
After a stupid drunk night out?
Why is it always so anti-Christy with you peple? Always so slutty, so extreme... how about a loving, young couple having sex (OMG BEFORE MARRIAGE THEY SHOULD BURN IN HELL), miscalculating the days, or having a condom ripped open, and getting the girl pregnant? It wasn't planned, and certainly wasn't a 'drunk night out'.

And you know what, even if the woman's a complete tramp, getting pregnant all the time, I most certainly wouldn't want her to have any children. She has a right to keep on ruining her body and her soul by being such a whore, and she has a right to get abortions, to eliminate the rotten fruit of her mis-demeanor.


Nobody has the misfortune of having to commit murder.
It's not murder, since it's not human. Murder is a malicious, premeditated killing of another human-being. This is neither malicious, nor is it performed on a human-being. As I've said, it's less human than a cockroach.


to make the call to murder a baby?
Again, not murder, and not a baby. Stop slinging buzz-words into the air, it does little but create antagonism.


A legitimate abortion that would put the mother's life in danger if she didn't have one? These are the cases that abortions are for and I sure wouldn't look down on anyone for doing that.
Life on its own aren't worth much. A good life lead, is worth the world. What about the well-being of the mother and father? What about the well-being of their potential child?

I don't think planning one's family is wrong. Abortion is a trauma done to the female body in order to stop a process that could result in disaster, for all involved.

Children should be brought to life out of choice, love and carefulness - not because some obscure religious law states that all semen should not be interrupted from entering a womb.

Are you also against oral sex, anal sex, masturbation, and everything esle that wastes semen? Do you also think every single egg that gets out of a woman's system should be preserved? Following the logic of 'don't do abortion because that's killing babies', the answers should all be 'yes'. Eggs and semen are not babies, and neither is the result of those two combined, after a month or two, or even three.

I don't take abortion lightly, especially because it's a harmful procedure. All in all, I am concerned for those that are living, and not those that haven't been born.


Besides, going into a country and purposefully bombing civilian areas despite it being a breach of International law (unlawful) seems to fit your definiton, but you're all for that kind of thing, right?
OMG I LIKE HOW YOU SPEW CRAP THAT ISN'T EVEN IN THE LEAST BIT RELEVANT LOLOL.


There's a lot of needless right-wing insanity going on here. The debate seems to have sunk to the usual "I'm right!" "But..." "I said I'm right, dammit!" "You have to..." "Shut up! I'm a conservative, that mean God likes me more than you!" "You have to consider..." "You can't tell me what to do!" "Just stop and think for a moment!" "NO! The President thinks for me!"
Admittedly, some pro-lifers are being reasonable (i.e. the vegetarian anti-death penalty ones) but some are just being hypocritical and ridiculous (the "let's eat meat then execute a mentally handicapped black man" ones).
Stop PMSing and get things into proportion, man. You either debate, or you don't. But you can't go on like this. It's annoying.

Sasquatch
11-01-2005, 08:41 PM
Err... what? you're already brutally and needlessly murdering a living creature for you're sadistic blood-sports, why would a pregnant deer have any more right to live?

Actually, most people hunt for food. Not for sport. It's not like, say, watching lions eat Christians, which I'm sure you would take pleasure in.


Wouldn't it count for double points or something? (I don't know how hunting works, I'm going to heaven).

For somebody who doesn't believe in it, you're sure stuck on this Heaven thing, aren't you?


And animals are not 'for eating'. I'm not a vegetarian, and have no problem with eating meat, but you don't have some sort of god-given right to kill animals.

Most religions with a god include that god telling us that we have dominion over the animals. So yes, I do have a God-given right to kill and eat animals. Funny how that works, isn't it?


Oh yeah, you're really adding to you're argument- "All life matters, except animals!" Yeah, go humans!

Why do you try to equate animal life with human life? If you eat meat, what's wrong with somebody killing and eating you? Your human life means no more than their life, does it?


No wait, why stop with animals? Why not gays or jews or blacks? Why not kill everyone? You're better than them!

Well since the prejudiced remarks usually come from your side of the political spectrum, this isn't surprising -- especially since abortion was supported in its early stages because it would help "control" the black population in America.


Hypocrit.

Coming from the guy who values animals as much as humans (moreso if the humans are unborn), as he eats a hamburger.


Abortions aren't nessecarilly "with malice".

Let me give you a hint. "Especially" doesn't mean "not without". Try reading over the definition a few times, I'm sure you'll understand it eventually.


Besides, going into a country and purposefully bombing civilian areas despite it being a breach of International law (unlawful) seems to fit your definiton, but you're all for that kind of thing, right?

Um, no, I'm not actually "all for that kind of thing". Which is why I took part in Operation Iraqi Freedom, to rid the world of Saddam Hussein, who routinely arranged and supported such bombings of civilian areas. Whereas you cannot name one instance in the recent conflict where the United States and Coalition Forces have intentionally targetted civilians, can you? Didn't think so.


The dictionary is not exactly a guide to morality.

No, but it's the guide to definitions of words. They teach you "reference tools" in elementary school. That's the numbered grades.


Besides, that's simply one definition. That's the activist's point- animals don't get the respect they deserve.

And my point is that animals don't deserve the respect that humans deserve.

Why is it that, for some reason, you try to turn every debate, on every subject, into some "those eeeevil Republicans are racist, sexist, homophobic, antisemetic, bigoted, chouvanistic, xenophobic, narrow-minded religious fanatic zealots!" Can't you just debate?

Destai
11-01-2005, 08:49 PM
x-pages of the same old

And my point is that animals don't deserve the respect that humans deserve.and several other points have been that neither does a growing sperm in an egg. Thats why you've read hypocrite so many times and wormed your way out of it.

Winter Nights
11-01-2005, 08:52 PM
Great.. Another thread filled with people playing the ever-popular "My Opinion Is Better Than Yours!!" game. How quaint.

Rye
11-01-2005, 08:55 PM
Seriously. :( I wish the EoTW threads would stay in EoTW. Can't there be a rule against overly debatable threads in GC? We can't even discuss internet browsers in GC without bad arguements. xD

Yamaneko
11-01-2005, 08:59 PM
My mod powers are better than your non-existent member powers.

Anyway, feel free to start up another thread in EoEO/EotW. This one has the same people posting over and over, which ultimately leads no where.