Black Metal

[Devourment]

Who here likes black metal & what are your favourite black metal bands?

Mine are

Mayhem
Burzum
Venom
Bathory
Darkthrone
Emperor
Early Cradle of Filth [First three albums]
Celtic Frost
Hellhammer
Immortal
Enslaved

They are my main ones. Though Mayhem is probably my favourite black metal band - De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas being my most liked & played album by them.

Don't forget that we [As in us Brits] created black metal, thanks to Venom. It was only later on that Norwegian acts started to make it more extreme.

So this thread is to discuss about black metal & your favourite black metal bands,

[I]Discuss

[jrgen]

I'm not sure if I'd call Celtic Frost black metal.

I really enjoy this genre though. My favourite black metal band is without a doubt Dornenreich and it will be really hard for any other band to top them. I am generally not that into "true" black metal, but I really like bands like:

Concept
Eisregen (Not really black metal, but this is the genre they have the most similarities to)
Finntroll
Grabnebelfürsten
Hollenthon
The Kovenant (the older stuff)
Nocte Obducta
Nocturnal Mortum
Sigh (the old stuff)

But overall, I like death metal better. And to make this clear. Venom did NOT create black metal. He named an album "Black Metal", but the music on this album has no connection to actual black metal. This kind of music originated in Norway. (or Sweden if you count Bathory, which I don't)

[Devourment]

Hmm. I do enjoy death metal a lot, because it is very complex & technical. Bands like Decapitated & Nile I enjoy.

Fair enough, but which band in Norway was the first to start it? In fact it probably wouldn't be just one band but several, as there was a black metal circle.

[jrgen]

Fair enough, but which band in Norway was the first to start it? In fact it probably wouldn't be just one band but several, as there was a black metal circle.
Just like most genres, it was developed simultaneously on different locations by different bands, but Mayhem are usually looked upon as the founders of the genre.

[eestlinc]

Is black metal different from death metal?

Why are metal bands so popular all of a sudden?

[Captain Maxx Power]

Black metal is too silly for me to take seriously. I mean, triple kick pedals, G-tuned guitars and guys going "boahboahboahboahboah" etc. etc. and talking about Satan's evil barbed wire fallous? I fall over laughing most of the time.

[Venom]

The only Black metal i like is Slayer...............do they count as black metal?

[Rini]

to eestlinc: I don't think it's that sudden, maybe it just seems that way because these sorts of topics emerge and people discuss it more, maybe because the negative "satanism" banner in the forehead of the whole genre is kinda "wearing off", so people maybe more open about it or something. I'm not sure, I don't know... But I am interested, too, in finding out why is it just now that metal is becoming more and more popular. However it still is a margin genre when you look at the Top lists or that sort of things, thank goodness :P

And the differences between black and death metal are various. I don't know everything, but one thing are the general topics and lyrical themes. In black metal, at least were before, lyrics are mainly about religious stuff about satan, hell and satanism as a concept. Death metal concentrates issues surrounding death and pain and those kinds of things.
There are also many people who ONLY regard black metal as all-guitars, very rough, no keyboards and only fierce grunting or something like that. I'm not entirely sure...

to jrgen, Finntroll aren't Black Metal at all, not from lyrics or from music. They'd consider themselves more to be Folk metal with a bit of death and black metal sounds. You should know since you speak swedish and you understand the lyrics, don't you? :P I don't much, but from what I'm told, it's more about trolls and old folklore and that sort of stuff :)

As for me, I don't really listen to black metal that much, not that I don't like it, it's just not the one I prefer :) There are some Burzum tracks that really hit it for me, like the legendary Dunkelheit. Satyricon's (I know, "mainstream" black :D) Black Lava is an incredible track aswell.

v.e.n.o.m. Slayer aren't black metal, nowhere near that! They're clearly thrash metal.

Gosh, people, you're so mixed up with these genres :/ Oh well, not that it matters so much, I'm just a busybody or something xD

[Traitorfish]

Finntroll:
http://rocktoons.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=77&pos=0
I'd just put the picture into the thread, but for some reason Rocktoons won't let you get the adress of individual images.
I don't mind Black Metal, even if it's not very good, but the whole arrogant superiority thing that inevitably comes with it annoys me. Like this topic. Although it seems harmless, I supsect it's an excuse for people to gather and congratulate themselves on being better people than others because they listen to a certain kind of music.
That's the MTV virus- everyone at my school seems to have it, and I'm bloody sick of it. I don't have a problem with kind of music people like, but I don't wnat to know about it either, so they can shut the hell up (obviosuly I'm talking about school, if I meant this thread I wouldn't have clicked on it).
Well, that's my miserable, cynical veiw.

[jrgen]

And the differences between black and death metal are various. I don't know everything, but one thing are the general topics and lyrical themes. In black metal, at least were before, lyrics are mainly about religious stuff about satan, hell and satanism as a concept. Death metal concentrates issues surrounding death and pain and those kinds of things.
There are also many people who ONLY regard black metal as all-guitars, very rough, no keyboards and only fierce grunting or something like that. I'm not entirely sure...

to jrgen, Finntroll aren't Black Metal at all, not from lyrics or from music. They'd consider themselves more to be Folk metal with a bit of death and black metal sounds. You should know since you speak swedish and you understand the lyrics, don't you? :P I don't much, but from what I'm told, it's more about trolls and old folklore and that sort of stuff :)
I, even though many disagree with me, claim that the lyrical theme is irrelevant when labelling music. There are really clear musical differences between black and death metal. Death metal is very raw, straight-forward, aggressive and heavy with growling vocals, while black metal is atmospheric, minimalistic, not as intensive and generally uses high pitched screaming vocals. You don't really have to take the lyrics into account. Finntroll is mainly a black metal band with folk influences. I'd probably call them folk/black metal or something like that. Nowadays, far from all black metal bands sing about Satan, evil and retarded things like that, just like not all death metal bands sing about death. I am not talking about "true black metal", which some elitists like to call it though. A true black metal band sings in Norwegian, uses no keyboards, worships Satan and/or norse Gods, is extremely nationalistic and is not afraid to show their hatred towards negros, jews and arabs alternatively christians. Luckily, the genre has evolved into something else than Mayhem & co. intended it to be.

EDIT: This is a good place for listening to mainly black, but also death metal: http://www.blackmetalradio.com/

[Captain Maxx Power]

The only Black metal i like is Slayer...............do they count as black metal?

Slayer is more Speed/Thrash Metal than Black Metal. Black Metal are a cross between Gothic and Speed. As I described, it usually involves double kick pedals, very low tuned guitars, and somebody grunting into a microphone. Band's I'd consider to be Black Metal are people like Ackercock, Cannibal Corpse and Emperor.

Here's the Wiki entry. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Metal)

[Venom]

Are motley crue black metal?

[Crushed Hope]

Can I fucking kill you Venom ... that was incredibly fucking stupid.

STUPID.

I enjoy quite alot of black metal, my favorite 3 bands are:

Diabolical Masquerade
Dornenreich
Emperor

It is such an amazing and beautiful genre, even if it does have this large veil of hate surrounding it. I honestly do not prefer any other genre of music to it (aside from the possibility of Post-black, the future of black metal, TODAY!.)

The music can create such a moving atmosphere, and I wish that every musician was as good a composer as people like Blakkheim and Ihshan, who are easily the two best composers of modern music.

EDIT: Bathory created Black metal

[tootncartman]

Mine are Marduk,Destoyer 666, Cannibal Corpse, old Dimmu Borgir and Vaticide(Aussie metal a-yeah.).

[Chzn8r]

Haven't gotten into black metal, doubt I ever will. The only two bands in this thread that caught my eye were Celtic Frost (old death metal, fairly good) and Therion (I prefer the new "Viking Metal" sound with all the orchestrated stuff, multiple singers, and Nordic story stuff).

But Death Metal for the win.

Oh and Slayer is one of the gods of thrash metal, just to make note.

[jrgen]

Cannibal Corpse is death metal, not black metal.


Dornenreich:cool: Yay for you.

[Devourment]

Black metal is too silly for me to take seriously. I mean, triple kick pedals, G-tuned guitars and guys going "boahboahboahboahboah" etc. etc. and talking about Satan's evil barbed wire fallous? I fall over laughing most of the time.Oh, Jesus. Do you realise how technical death metal is?

The drumming is very complex, & not all death metal bands tune their guitars down that low. In fact not many bands tune down to G. The only band I've heard of tuning down that low is Sunn 0)) & they are doom metal. Decapitated are one of the best death metal bands about [In my opinion] & they only tune down one whole step to D & they sound more brutal than some other death metal bands [Their complexity in their songs is unmatched by a lot of bands of any style.] like Nile for example. & Nile tune down to A. Fair enough for the vocals, but that's how it's meant to sound. You're not going to have some opera vocals in it are you? Or Britrock style singing. & a lot of death metal bands sing about politics, not things to do with the Occult. You cleary don't have a clue. Research into something before you try & ridicule it.
Is black metal different from death metal?
Why are metal bands so popular all of a sudden?Yes. Although thay are both extreme genres, they are similar in ways i.e. they both contain blast beats [Drums], though their complexitites are very different. Black metal music styles can be traced to have classical elements in it. Type in death metal & black metal on seperate pages on Wikipedia & you'll get a nice glance at the differences.

& metal bands aren't popular all of a sudden, I've just been making threads to keep metal discussion continuous [Along with other people.]


The only Black metal i like is Slayer...............do they count as black metal?Thrash Metal.
Slayer is more Speed/Thrash Metal than Black Metal. Black Metal are a cross between Gothic and Speed. As I described, it usually involves double kick pedals, very low tuned guitars, and somebody grunting into a microphone. Band's I'd consider to be Black Metal are people like Ackercock, Cannibal Corpse and Emperor.

Here's the Wiki entry. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Metal)Not all black metal is fast though.

Akercocke & Cannibal Corpse are more death metal. Although Akercocke have elements of black metal in their music, they are more suited to death. Cannibal Corpse are like a fake death metal. They make good music but ridicule death metal. & as for Emperor, yes they are a black metal band.
Gosh, people, you're so mixed up with these genres :/ Oh well, not that it matters so much, I'm just a busybody or something xDYou've gave a better overview of the differences though, thanks.

[Moose Knight]

The best black metal band is Venom and they aren't even black metal. Celtic Frost rules but they aren't black metal at all. Bathory's albums (after under the sign) are pretty cool, but the old ones are awful.

Seriously, I don't care about the "Grim and frostbitten wolf's inverted stare necrolord." Its so laughably stupid. It also all rips off of darkthrone, who sucked anyway. Or it rips off from Emperor who were actually somewhat good.

EDIT:
I suggest everyone participating in this thread to watch this music video by immortal.
http://www.immortal.battlegrim.net/downloads/eng_call_of_the_wintermoon.shtml

[Traitorfish]

This thread really shows the ludicracy of all these mronic sub-genres and sub-sub-genres. WHen you can't even decide what's death metal, what's black metal and what's thrash metal, don't you realise the whole thing's a bit screwy? Why can't it just be metal?

[jrgen]

Let's not turn this into another thread where people who dislike metal complain about not understanding the differences between the different genres. Thrash metal, black metal and death metal shouldn't be labelled as just metal because they do not sound the same. If you don't understand the differences between the genres that's your problem. You should either educate yourself on the topic or just not comment on it.

[Venom]

Do Hammerfall count as black metal? no this isnt me being stupid im serious.

[jrgen]

Hammerfall is power metal.

[Venom]

whatever happened to just calling it heavy metal?

[Chzn8r]

That died when Metal bands diverged into trying new and different things, and the sounds grew apart but are only really held together by heavy guitars and generally faster or just more technical drumming than simple 4/4 rock beats.
There are clear differences between all the sub genres of metal, but that doesn't mean there aren't crossovers, or bands that take metal and make something altogether different by including other genres (classical, jazz, rap, whatever) with it. You just have to have a broad view of rock/metal music and be able to discern what sounds like what. It's easier to find music you like when you can look for bands in genres you already enjoy.

[Devourment]

whatever happened to just calling it heavy metal?That never happened. There are different genres for a reason, because they sound different. You have to listen to each genre so you know. Power metal is power metal because of the lyrics, the way the guitars are played & the bands image. You don't get people dressed in black leather with studs on singing drum 'n' bass do you? That's why there are reasons for their being different genres. Although to some people it may sound the same, you can't comment until you've heard the different genres. Although a lot of genres borrow techniques from other genres, there is still a lot of difference.

[Rini]

jrgen, I looked it up - wikipedia on black metal:

Black metal is a musical genre which emerged in the early 1980s predating the great expansion of heavy metal 'extreme' genres. It evolved out of thrash metal, like death metal.

There are two views on the genre. One views black metal as a very specific form of music that must adhere to a particular 'style' in order for it to be a part of the genre; while the second considers the lyrical and philosophical/political ideology of the music (likely to be heavily inspired from Friedrich Nietzsche) to take more precedence in defining the genre itself, rather than 'style'.

The main originators of (the first wave of) black metal are bands like Venom, Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Hellhammer, Celtic Frost and Mayhem. The name of the movement comes from Venom's album Black Metal (a pun on the term "Black Magic") and it can first be seen in its mature form with the recordings of Bathory in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Black metal congealed in its current form (known as the second wave of black metal, which is rooted much more heavily in classical musical theory) through the influence of Norwegian bands such as Darkthrone, Enslaved, Burzum, Mayhem, Immortal and Emperor, who began with the earlier style and introduced elements from mainstream heavy metal, classical music and popularised the style to a growing underground audience. Their influence is most apparent in the Satanic (or Pagan) imagery, anti-Christian lyrics and occult themes.

Black metal characteristics can include:

* Frequently including fast guitars that use Tremolo picking.
* Popular black metal bands often have lyrics that take the form of Satanic themes which blaspheme Christianity, and other occult themes, like Paganism. Bands such as Slayer, Deicide, and Immolation overlap lyrically with black metal somewhat, but are musically defined as death metal (Immolation, Deicide) or thrash metal (Slayer).
* Relatively thin guitar sound or relatively thick guitar sound, usually not in the middle.
* Limited production used intentionally as a statement against mainstream music and/or to reflect the mood of the music.
* Fast, aggressive drums, often including blast beats. At other times, the drums can take a slower role usually accompanied by a very dry and empty tone--esp. for the effect of the atmosphere of the music.
* High-pitched/distorted screeching vocals
* Swift percussion
* Cold, dark, sad, melancholy, or gloomy atmosphere.

Otherwise I would agree with you on the 'labelling music by lyrical themes' but in black metal it's almost essential.

And I totally forgot that Emperor = <3
Has anyone heard of Ihsahn's newer project, Peccatum? Somewhat different from what Emperor was :P

[jrgen]

Wikipedia is not exactly the source of univeral truth. The lyrical theme in black metal is NOT an essential part of defining the music as it can be done by listening solely to the music. And what about instrumental black metal bands?(Yes, there are such bands) There are thousands of black metal bands that sing about anything from the joy of loving Jesus to "Jihad, kill all the infidels!". If a band matches all the musical criteria for being considered a black metal band, but sings about slaying dragons with magic swords, are you saying it should be considered a power metal band?

By your definition, I like no black metal bands at all. Yet I consider it to be one of my favourite genres.

[Crushed Hope]

... *cough* Yeah. Please people, get educated in your basic metal genres.

I have been listening to metal for 2 years and know more about it than most who have been listening to it their whole life, that alone should show you how easy it is to learn about.

Anyways >_> lol @ that Hammerfall question.

Yeah, lyrics do not determine a genre at all ... it is all sound. Sure alot of bands fit the lyrical criteria but it doesn't matter. Enslaved never once praised Satan, and yet their early works were black metal. *shrugs* Ah well.

One more thing ... about Celtic Frost, they are thrash metal. That, due to their "rougher" vocals influenced death and black metal.

Also, Therion, they were a AMAZING death metal band, and evolved into a symphonic heavy metal band, great stuff btw. NOT VIKING METAL IN ANY SENSE OF THE WORDS. >_>

So yeah, go listen to the totally non-black metal release from a bm band ... Dornenreich - Hexenwind. It is pure beauty.

[jrgen]

Dornenreich - Hexenwind
You've heard it already? :eek:
Lucky bastard. I can't wait for it to get released so I can buy it. Still a week and a half to go though.

[Crushed Hope]

Yeah >_> I am a downloader ... heh. I really was surprised with this album actually, seeing as it is not BM at all, I was worried as to wether or not they could pull it off and I honestly will put it in my top 5 releases this year no matter what else is released.

[Dreddz]

I dont get all these different rock type, black metal, isnt that the same as Death metal or goth metal, or heavy metal. Me gone into a severe state of Con fu fu ......

[Crushed Hope]

First off: Metal is NOT a type of rock. Metal is a whole style of music in and of itself.

Also, black metal is VERY different from death and gothic metal. I'd post how they are but I know I have done it so much as of late I have grown tired of it.

So to teach you how you will listen to:

Death - Human (death metal)

and

Emperor - In The Nightside Eclipse (black metal)

and

Beseech - Souls Highway (Gothic metal)

to tell the differences.

[Dreddz]

Im not great in this subject, but metal is a form of rock imo .....

[Crushed Hope]

I could honestly say that if someone listened only to bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and Black Sabbath, than based on their knowledge they would be decently correct as those bands are heavily influenced by rock music.

However, when you progress into genres like death metal, thrash metal, black metal, even power metal, I hear no rock influences.

So basically Doom/Stoner/Sludge and Heavy metal are about the only ones related to rock at all, and even then it is all too separate from rock music.

[Venom]

thrash metal has a rock influence.

[eestlinc]

if by rock you mean they use guitars and drums, then all metal is influenced by rock.

[Venom]

exactly my point.

[Crushed Hope]

By that definition than rock is a subgenre of jazz, which is a subgenre of blues. >_>

It isn't true. Musical instruments may be similar but they are played very differently, and I'd be damned if anyone can point me to a song that has guitars being played like Heathen, and still are rock.

[Venom]

.........Heathen?


well anyway, someone could play like slayer or anthrax and still call themselves rock. Its all how you percieve it.

[Crushed Hope]

o_O You don't know who Heathen are ... *suicides*

Anyways, they are a thrash metal band, the best of the Bay Area. Fuck Metallica and Slayer, Heathen > them.

Anyways, no it is not based on perception, rather it is based on FACT. Metallica's first 4 albums were thrash metal, in no way rock, after that sure they did start playing rock but ...

[Venom]

Metallica use some influences from AC/DC if you listen to a song called "ronnie" by them. I just have a question. Why does metallica's "the four horseman" sound alot like Megadeths "mechanix"?

[Crushed Hope]

... one song does not make a band "rock."

The reason the songs are so similar is because Mustaine wrote both versions, originally for Metallica but since they kicked him out he just sped it up and called it Mechanix, it is the one song that proves that everything Dave does it so much better than what the Metallica guys can do.

[Venom]

very much agreed:D

[Chzn8r]

NOT VIKING METAL IN ANY SENSE OF THE WORDS. >_>

Roffle. I wasn't being that serious. I don't think there's really any conotation to the term "viking metal", but it seemed to fit with this Scandanavian band makings songs that honest-to-God sound like they're scores for Viking movies (best fit to ship-sailing and such).

Anyways, don't worry about me, I'm well-versed in my metal definitions, and where the crossovers lie. Like, I know that I listen to little, if any, true Death Metal. I listen to a lot of melo-death and progressive death metal. I also know that I hate Black Metal. But I've had experience with it and understand what it sounds like.
My favorite metal genres in order are probably (including my favorites in each)...

1. Progressive Metal (key band: Dream Theater)
2. Power Metal (key band: Blind Guardian, though they began as thrash and slowly shifted their style)
3. Progressive-death (key band: Opeth)
4. Classic (NWOBHM) metal (key band: Iron Maiden)
5. Thrash metal (key band: Megadeth)
6. Melo-death (key band: In Flames)
7. NWOAHM (key band: Killswitch Engage)

[Venom]

you forgot sleaze metal.

[Crushed Hope]

1. Progressive Metal (key band: Dream Theater)
2. Power Metal (key band: Blind Guardian, though they began as thrash and slowly shifted their style)
3. Progressive-death (key band: Opeth)
4. Classic (NWOBHM) metal (key band: Iron Maiden)
5. Thrash metal (key band: Megadeth)
6. Melo-death (key band: In Flames)
7. NWOAHM (key band: Killswitch Engage)

Actually there is a genre of metal that goes by Viking metal, it is led by bands like Ensiferum, Tyr, Equilibrium, Einherjer, Falkenbach, Moonsorrow etc. Very good stuff, and seeing as only bands who can play it do, I have never heard a single bad viking metal band.

Anyways, I shall correct your genre list, not saying you don't like the bands but just helping you classify.

1. Fine.

2. Good except Blind Guardian never played thrash, they played speed.

3. Alright, however Opeth are more Progressive metal than prog death, ... actually in some albums even closer to Prog. Rock. Symbolic-era Death would be a better example.

4. Traditional metal aka Heavy metal is not synonomyous with NWOBHM, as NWOBHM is a MOVEMENT, and Trad. Metal is the genre, with bands like Maiden and Priest.

5. Okay, though Megadeth have had some speed moments.

6. Alright, one of the few to properly use Melo-death to describe the Gothenfuck bands.

7. As with NWOBHM, NWOAHM is a "movement" though not so much as its British counterpart, infact most bands in this "movement" play uninspired metalcore (i.e. Lamb of God, KsE, Chimira etc.)

Anyways yay. >_>

[Venom]

is viking metal like, Heavy folk?

[Rini]

(to jrgen and CH earlier)

Why are you attacking me all of a sudden, anyways? Is it 'cause I used a reference to wikipedia or something?

And so maybe it is that black metal nowadays is what you say, all about music and none about the lyrics, but somehow I don't get it that some bands would sing about jesus and all that and be black metal. You know, it just doesn't sound right in my ear. Neither does that dragon stuff. Of course there are exceptions everywhere but bleh. Since you seem to be all set with your opinions, I won't bother trying to explain anything anymore (and you probably will be more than glad about it since you probably consider me a noob of some kind or something like that at least). So you just sit tight and listen to you Jesus-loving black metal bands and be as happy as ever. Thank you for the slap in the face also :)

[Traitorfish]

By that definition than rock is a subgenre of jazz, which is a subgenre of blues. >_>

It isn't true. Musical instruments may be similar but they are played very differently, and I'd be damned if anyone can point me to a song that has guitars being played like Heathen, and still are rock.
Metal is a sub-genre of rock. So's punk, but punk is very different from other forms of rock. Don't make stuff up to help your 'I listen to metal and am therefore cool' superioirty complex.
Metal's a kind of rock. What's the big deal? It's just music, y'know?

Oh, and by your standars, fauvisism is not a form of post-impressionism because it differs from pointilism. (I can be smart-assed and elitist too).

[Venom]

Is it just me or is this thread getting a little intense?

Well anyway I think we should all just call Heavy Metal, Heavy metal, it seems rather confusing to have 50000 diffrent categorys of metal.

[Crushed Hope]

Was that for Jrgen or me? Heh, I just supported him not attacking anyone >_>

Anyways, Black metal never was based on lyrics unless you count Mercyful Fate and Venom as 1st wave BM, which I really find stupid as they obviously play heavy and thrash (coresponding to the order mentioned.)

I do understand that you find the bands to have a certain lyrical theme as a whole, but there are alot of exceptions, I mean Emperor never was a "gay for Satan" band. Immortal never were, they glorified winter. Woods of Ypres sing about how summer is a season of agony >_>. Nokturnal Mortum have National Socialist lyrics. Enslaved sang about Vikings. Diabolical Masquerade wrote lyrics revolving around horror movie ideas. etc.

It is much more a musical thing than a lyrical thing, and using Wikipedia on things such as metal is quite stupid, as the articles are written by people who usually will not know all of what they are talking about (i.e. saying that Slam Death metal is a sub-genre of DM >_>)


EDIT: Metal is not a sub-genre of rock ... get used to it. Honestly sit down with Enslaved - Forst, and tell me that is in anyway aside from instrumental usage related to rock. I never got, aside from bands like Sabbath and Priest, how people ever found metal to be a rock sub-genre. >_>

Also, metal must be categorized into so many different ways because there are so many different syles, image someone asking for metal, and they like Sonata Arctica, and I go and recommend them ... Devourment, it just won't slide with them. Sub-genres are there because it makes it easier, if you learn them.

Blah, I can't explain the sound of Viking metal too well, but to understand what it is go listen to Einherjer - Odin Owns Ye All, and Equilibrium - Turis Fratyr

[Traitorfish]

Lyrics have nothing to do with genre. If you wrote a blues song, but with really cheerful lyrics, it would still be blues. Certain genres may tend towards certain lyrics, but they're not really connected.

[Crushed Hope]

Lyrics have nothing to do with genre. If you wrote a blues song, but with really cheerful lyrics, it would still be blues. Certain genres may tend towards certain lyrics, but they're not really connected.
Quoted for truth.

[Venom]

Whats the diffrence between black metal and Death metal?

[Traitorfish]

Whats the diffrence between black metal and Death metal?
I think black metal is meant to be slightly more tunefull, but they blur in about a million different places.

[Crushed Hope]

Black Metal: An extreme evolution of thrash about pushing metal to its audible and (optional :P ) lyrical extremes. Guitars are fast and abrasive, often quite minimilistic, and often tremolo picked. Drums are usually fast double bass sections or fast blast beats, usually accompanied by a ride or hi-hat. Vocals are usually shrieked in a shrill high-pitched tone, and production is often very rough to enhance the atmosphere and abrasiveness of the music. Mayhem, Darkthrone, Gorgorth, Burzum and Kreig are all excellent examples of Pure Black Metal. Some BM bands try to incorporate synths and more electronic atmospherics into their music, these bands are often called "Goth Metal" by BM fans although this is inaccurate, the term "Symphonic Black Metal" is a lot closer to the truth.

Death Metal: The other evolution of Thrash, this branch of bands went in a very different direction with the Thrash prototype, they thickened the guitar tone, inserted a lot of musicianship, groove and speed (yes even more). Double bass sections are usually faster, more blasts are used and riffs are usually a lot more technical. However the main thing that sets DM apart is the vocals. Vibrato soaked growls that are projected from the abdomen and shaped with the throat, this is as important part of the music as any of the instruments, however the sounds of the vocals can differ as vocals will NEVER define the genre. Morbid Angel, Cryptopsy, Origin, and Death are all good examples of Death Metal.

[Traitorfish]

Blah blah blah. What's the difference in the actual sound? Unless you've heard nothing but heavy metal for 20 years, then very little.

[Crushed Hope]

... you know, that was fucking ignorant.

I have been listening to metal for the pasty 2-3 years and I can easily tell the differences. It isn't too hard, as I have said MANY times in MANY threads,listen to the albums I recommend for DM and BM, and you can learn the differences.

[Venom]

People consider Ozzy Osbourne "black metal" just goes to show you what people will do when there afraid of cool people:D

[Crushed Hope]

If I ever saw someone call Ozzy black metal I would honestly fall on my ass laughing. His "band" played heavy metal.

[Venom]

people just think that because he bit the head off the bat. And ozzy sounds more like a really hard version of classic rock

[jrgen]

Blah blah blah. What's the difference in the actual sound? Unless you've heard nothing but heavy metal for 20 years, then very little.
Crushed Hope just provided really accurate and thorough descriptions of the genres. Why don't you just read the post you replied to?

[Moose Knight]

The reason the songs are so similar is because Mustaine wrote both versions, originally for Metallica but since they kicked him out he just sped it up and called it Mechanix, it is the one song that proves that everything Dave does it so much better than what the Metallica guys can do.

Wrong. Mechanix was the version on the first Metallica demo, No life till Leather. Metallica slowed it doen and added the interlude for Kill 'em all, Megadeth kept it the same for Killing is my business. But you had the right idea.

[Crushed Hope]

Thanks Moose >_> I didn't want to go around making a fool out of myself, but I knew something was changed hahah.

[Venom]

I like how megadeth did it better.

[Rini]

I know I really shouldn't touch this topic anymore, not even with a long stick, but I still want to make a stand here...

There has been, and still is, "heated" (to say the least) discussion about what is considered black metal and what not. Anyhow, I asked an expert about this (just so you know, I'm not making this up! and he really is an expert on metal, after all, he's a journalist and has studied these things), and he told me something along the lines of the following (and it was close to what I thought)..

In its purest form, black metal refers only to anti-christ, occultism and satanism -based lyrics. BUT. There's also a style of music that is called black metal, which represents exactly what old black metal riffs, rhythms, moods etc. sound like. It could even be instrumental and still sound like black metal, like Burzum.
Again, this is one of those fights of the "puritanists" and those who see things from a different point of view, and there is no conclusion.
There are those who say that black metal is nothing but black lyrics connected to a certain style of music, that is as hellish as it can be, with no melodies or such.
But for example bands that have orchestra material, like Dimmu Borgir's new album, have some of the same kinds of black metal riffs etc. And anyways, all the labels have been invented later, after everything had been born.
There's so much to metal, that there are no 100% viable rules or regulations to it.
So if the first black metal-type set-ups were Venom and Mercyful Fate in the beginning of the 80's and nowadays black metal is represented by bands like Dimmu Borgir or Cradle of Filth, then there's no clear rule at all.
But black metal as music and black metal as an ideology are two different things. Basically black metal is the specific sort of material in lyrics, and nothing can be black metal without it, but as said, the "black metal-ish mood" or "black metal riffs" exist in the same way.

He also told me that it's pointless to debate about this, because there is no ultimate truth, only opinions... And now I'm starting to find my own post a bit unnecessary. Ah well...

[Traitorfish]

Crushed Hope just provided really accurate and thorough descriptions of the genres. Why don't you just read the post you replied to?
Yes, I read them, but what's the real difference? If you play black metal and death metal next to each other, they sound very similar. You can ponce about saying 'Oh, it's all in the yakkity blahitty blabbooni', but that doesn't change the fact that you're unnsessearilly pigeon-holing everything.
It's just metal. Genres are Ok if you want to be specific, but you can't always pigeon-hole everything. Among other things, some of the best bands move between genres. Motorhead, for example- "is it heavy? Is it speed? is it thrash? Oh, I can't shove it into a dumb category! Aah, I'm scared!"
I'm usually not to bothered about all these genres, but when people come out and say "I like a ceratin genre of music! I'm so coooool!" it really annoys me.
People get wa[aaaaaa]y too excited about it.

[jrgen]

...

[Crushed Hope]

Saying that black and death metal sound homogenous when played next to each other is rediculous and shows that you have no grasp on the genres.

Saying that would be like saying Michael Jackson and Hilary Duff sound just the same because they are pop music.

... also black metal, has nothing to do with lyrics, it is the sound. I am a purist in that respect. Anyone who thinks differently has no grasp on factual things.

Also, metal is sure not 100% classifyable, but 99% of it is.

Cradle of Filth and Dimmu Borgir do not represent black metal, simply because they don't play it. They play Gothic metal.

Honestly, today BM is led by such bands as Blut Aus Nord,Darkthrone (still heh),Deathspell Omega, GBK, Graveland, Xasthur, Judas Iscariot, Nokturnal Mortum, and a few others.

Your friend is not an EXPERT on black metal, because if he were he would know that it is a SOUND. Not a lyrical thing. As I said, LYRICS MY BE TYPICAL BUT THEY DO NOT DEFINE THE GENRE!

... and Traitorfish, where do you get that I think I am cool because I can name off all these bands no one has ever heard of? I mean sure, I take pride in knowing of them, it shows I am not fucking lazy when it comes to finding music I enjoy, however I never once stated, or even implied that I was cool because of it.

[Venom]

The only reason i dont know Black metal is cause i dont listen to it. I only have thrash albums.

[Chzn8r]

Actually there is a genre of metal that goes by Viking metal, it is led by bands like Ensiferum, Tyr, Equilibrium, Einherjer, Falkenbach, Moonsorrow etc. Very good stuff, and seeing as only bands who can play it do, I have never heard a single bad viking metal band.

Anyways, I shall correct your genre list, not saying you don't like the bands but just helping you classify.

1. Fine.

2. Good except Blind Guardian never played thrash, they played speed.

3. Alright, however Opeth are more Progressive metal than prog death, ... actually in some albums even closer to Prog. Rock. Symbolic-era Death would be a better example.

4. Traditional metal aka Heavy metal is not synonomyous with NWOBHM, as NWOBHM is a MOVEMENT, and Trad. Metal is the genre, with bands like Maiden and Priest.

5. Okay, though Megadeth have had some speed moments.

6. Alright, one of the few to properly use Melo-death to describe the Gothensmurf bands.

7. As with NWOBHM, NWOAHM is a "movement" though not so much as its British counterpart, infact most bands in this "movement" play uninspired metalcore (i.e. Lamb of God, KsE, Chimira etc.)

Anyways yay. >_>

-I did not know about true Viking Metal. Excuse me.

-I've been into all this metal business about as long as you have (3 years or so), and while I don't claim to know more than you, I will say that "thrash" and "speed" are interchangable. I regularly mingle with the elite/stuck-up metal crowd, and none of them have a problem calling slayer, megadeth, old metallica, anthrax, old blind guardian, pantera, testament, or sepultura "thrash" OR "speed" (the accepted term is "thrash", but speed is still used by some).

-I don't feel right just calling stuff "metal", so if saying "classic metal" isn't descriptive enough, I will refer to NWOBHM bands and the sound-alikes they spawned. As for NWOAHM, sure it's a "movement", but it is an easy way to put together a lot of bands going in a similar direction that popular metal hasn't gone in in a long time.

-Don't be hatin' Killswitch, man ;) Or the whole melo-death scene which I believe you just dissed entirely :(

-You're splitting hairs on Opeth. They have, more often than not, the guitar and bass and death vox requirements of death metal. But the descriptor "progressive" comes with a lot attached. Just look at Dream Theater- they semi-popularized "progressive metal" and are looked at as the defining band, yet only about 2/3 of their material (if that) is really metal. They are all over the map, which comes from the progressive rock influence. Opeth has a lot of that same influence, yet have an even greater majority of "metal" to their name than DT. How they aren't progressive death metal baffles me. Yes, I understand that you would also put stuff like Death in there (but that's where you have to draw the line between death metal that's just "technical" in composition, vs. really diverse stuff that earns the moniker "progressive").

[Crushed Hope]

Actually, speed metal is a genre that is serparate from thrash. While thrash draws alot of hardcore punk influences, speed metal tends to be more or less focus on melody.

Basically, thrash is hardcore punk + heavy metal, while speed is a blur of the line between power metal and thrash.

A good example of speed metal would be Helloween's Walls of Jericho.

Oh I do not hate all melo-death, just the uninspired bands like Arch Enemy and most otherbands, I enjoy bands like Epoch of Unlight,Shadow, (early) In Flames, Omnium Gatherum, Holymarsh, Intestine Baalism, and Into Eternity.

However, with Opeth, they most certainly are not death metal, they are prog. metal with harsh vocals.

The closest band to Opeth that IS death metal, that I can even name is Demigod, and they are so much different from Opeth it is kind of crazy. I'm not saying Opeth are bad, just that they are not Death metal. Prog. metal CAN be heavy.

[Traitorfish]

When it becomes so hideously impossible to tell which genres are which, you know you have too many.

[Crushed Hope]

No not really, it is just very nitpicky at times, because alot of thrash bands have played speed metal in their careers, and many speed bands have played thrash in their careers so >_>

[Moose Knight]

Actually, speed metal is a genre that is serparate from thrash. While thrash draws alot of hardcore punk influences, speed metal tends to be more or less focus on melody.

Basically, thrash is hardcore punk + heavy metal, while speed is a blur of the line between power metal and thrash.

A good example of speed metal would be Helloween's Walls of Jericho.


This is more or less correct, but speed metal also draws important characteristics from 70's prog Rock. Basically, the four main speed metal bands are Metallica (Lightning, Puppets, Justice), Megadeth (Peace Sells, So far so good, Rust) Testament (First three albums) and Voivod. Helloween's Walls of Jericho sounds more like sped up Iron Maiden rather than containing any of the melodic/harmonic innovations as the aforementioned. A good example of a speed metal song is 'Master of Puppets' with its interesting riff changes and, especially, the melodic interlude.

Anyway, speed metal>pretty much all other metal

TRAOTORFISH: If you think these genres are ridiculous, listen to some Morbid Angel or Obituary and compare it to Metallica. Or even compare Slayer to Metallica. The difference is obvious.

[Crushed Hope]

Err >_> No. Speed metal is not better than all ... that title goes to black, and possibly post-black.

However some of my favorites are speed metal, in particular Grave Digger,Sex Machineguns and Animetal.

[Venom]

Isnt Animetal the band with Randy Piper from W.A.S.P. as lead vocals?

[Crushed Hope]

No ... Eizo Sakamoto is their vocalist. You are thinking of Animal.

[Venom]

ooops.........

[Moose Knight]

Err >_> No. Speed metal is not better than all ... that title goes to black, and possibly post-black.

I still don't think post-black is a real genre. I mean, the only thing that "post-black" bands have in common is that they used to play black metal. There is no common, unifying "post-black" sound. Ex., the only reason Arcturus and ...And Oceans are grouped in the same genre is that they both used to play Black Metal; however, their current sounds have nothing in common. (Even though I agree that bands categorized as post-black are usually very good. Ulver kills).

And I said Speed metal is better than MOST metal, because there are always bands like Tiamat or Celtic Frost that are really creative and make great albums.

And Black metal is just awful. If someone owns Ulver's Madriggal, Emperor's Nightshade Eclipse and the Early Bathory albums, there's no reason to get any other albums since they all sound like one of those.

[Crushed Hope]

I still don't think post-black is a real genre. I mean, the only thing that "post-black" bands have in common is that they used to play black metal. There is no common, unifying "post-black" sound. Ex., the only reason Arcturus and ...And Oceans are grouped in the same genre is that they both used to play Black Metal; however, their current sounds have nothing in common. (Even though I agree that bands categorized as post-black are usually very good. Ulver kills).

And I said Speed metal is better than MOST metal, because there are always bands like Tiamat or Celtic Frost that are really creative and make great albums.

And Black metal is just awful. If someone owns Ulver's Madriggal, Emperor's Nightshade Eclipse and the Early Bathory albums, there's no reason to get any other albums since they all sound like one of those.

...and Oceans are post black? News to me.

Bands that are post-black include: Arcturus, Dodheimsgard, Solefald, Transcending Bizarre.

Ulver are not post-black, they started out as Black metal, made a folk metal album, and are now doing electronic soundscape albums.

... Tiamat? Speed? No. Early Tiamat was death metal, then they made an atmospheric ... err metal album, then had a Gothic metal period, and are now back to atmospheric ... err metal.

Celtic Frost, were thrash metal, and ... >_> are now kinda avant-gardy. Heh.

You obviously do not listen to alot of black metal, because if you did you would not be making such stupid comments.

Many bands are unoriginal sure, Marduk, Dark Funeral, and a bunch of others, but you have bands like:

Aes Dana
Ancient Rites
Ancient Wisdom
...and Oceans
Axis of Advance
Axis of Perdition
Blut Aus Nord
Burzum
Deathspell Omega
Diabolical Masquerade
Dornenreich
Folklord
Grand Alchemist
In The Woods ...
Limbonic Art
Negura Bunget
Nokturnal Mortum
Sad Legend
Sigh
Sirius
The Meads of Asphodel
Vesperian Sorrow
Windir
Woods of Ypres:

Who are definatly not the same as the aforementioned bands, and each have very unique qualities to their music that sets them apart from every other band on that list.

...and Oceans started using really obvious electronica influences, Aes Dana has a big thing with the pan flute, Woods of Ypres are almost black metal LITE LITE LITE, due to their heavy rock influences and reliance on acoustic guitars, Axis of Perdition ... weird industrial BM project that ... can scare any sane person to death >_>, Dornenreich ... are just Dornenreich and are all yayish.

You are prejuding a genre that you do not know very much about, and that shows. It really does show.

[jrgen]

I forgot all about Sad Legend earlier when listing favourites. My second favourite South Korean band. (I like Oathean better but they're folky melo-death)

[Venom]

I have a question, does Danzig count as Black metal? they sound pretty dark.

[Crushed Hope]

I have a question, does Danzig count as Black metal? they sound pretty dark.
No. Either heavy metal .. or doomy rock.

[Rini]

Crushed Hope, you didn't seem to read my whole post since you made all those conclusions about it. I guess you didn't notice with all that fire in your eyes ;)
Fine by me, if you want to listen to silly boys singing about flower fields, playin rough guitars, rhythms and call it black metal, then go ahead.

[Crushed Hope]

Blah. I did read it.

In it's purest form blah blah about lyrics.

Yeah. No. In it's purest form it is all about the music.

An ideology can not be called "black metal" it can be Anti-Christian or Satanic, but calling it a name that is reserved to a genre is stupid. I don't really care, I know I am right so I have no reason to argue but whatever.

Everyone go listen to Ash and Elm, great melo-death.