Rinoa and Ultamicea

[Risico]

So was Rinoa the final boss of the game. If not then how else did the sorceress get Griever?

[Shiny]

Well I think there is a thread about how Rinoa and Ultimecia are the same person, but that's just a theory. The game never comes out and says that. I think Ultimecia is Rinoa in the future so that's how she got the Griever (from Squall). The time compression is the gang going into the future to save Rinoa from becoming the evil sorceress, Ultimecia. They succeed because Squall becomes her knight.

[Qurange]

Rinoa is not Ultimecia. There is the theory, but the FAQ thread on here shows part of why it really just doesn't work. Ultimecia is Ultimecia.

She draws Griever from Squall's mind, from what his conception is of the most powerful GF. Before the final fight, she didn't have Griever.

[Shiny]

Your theory sounds better Qurange.

[Masamune·1600]

That's because the idea (that Griever was Drawn from Squall's mind) has evidence to support it.

Ultimecia obtained Griever by Drawing the parameters for the being directly from Squall's thoughts. The direct Japanese dialogue drives this home with heightened clarity.


Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.

In the context of the precise Japanese dialogue, Griever's scan data...


In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues fighting without vanishing.

...can be interpreted to support the supposition that Griever was "created on the spot." Griever, in Squall's mind, was the ultimate GF, and, using those thoughts as a template, Ultimecia brought forth a GF to battle the party. This view makes even more sense in light of the fact that Ultimecia can blow away stocked spells, suggestive of her ability to affect and otherwise utilize memory.

In any case, as suggested by the FAQ, the Ultimania Guide for FFVIII states that Sorceresses do not have extended lifespans. Since Ultimecia lives many generations in the future, there's no logical way that Rinoa could be an active presence at that time (generations in the future). Therefore, one should conclude that Rinoa and Ultimecia are entirely different individuals.

[Shiny]

That's because the idea (that Griever was Drawn from Squall's mind) has evidence to support it.

Ultimecia obtained Griever by Drawing the parameters for the being directly from Squall's thoughts. The direct Japanese dialogue drives this home with heightened clarity.



In the context of the precise Japanese dialogue, Griever's scan data...



...can be interpreted to support the supposition that Griever was "created on the spot." Griever, in Squall's mind, was the ultimate GF, and, using those thoughts as a template, Ultimecia brought forth a GF to battle the party. This view makes even more sense in light of the fact that Ultimecia can blow away stocked spells, suggestive of her ability to affect and otherwise utilize memory.

In any case, as suggested by the FAQ, the Ultimania Guide for FFVIII states that Sorceresses do not have extended lifespans. Since Ultimecia lives many generations in the future, there's no logical way that Rinoa could be an active presence at that time (generations in the future). Therefore, one should conclude that Rinoa and Ultimecia are entirely different individuals.
Both theories have info to support it, that's why we don't know which one is true 100%. FF8 leaves alot of things questionable.

[rubah]

Before someone mentions it, I want to mention that girls in general like to wear their boy's jewelry, so *that* was probably teh reason Square had Rinoa get a mock up of squall's ring :P Not because they wanted to have her grow up to try and kill them all.

[Masamune·1600]

Both theories have info to support it, that's why we don't know which one is true 100%. FF8 leaves alot of things questionable.

One theory is strongly supported by information that is presented at the exact time of the incident in question, while the other suffers from an irreconcilable contradiction. Official SE information states that Sorceresses have normal lifespans. Ultimecia's time is one far into the future; therefore, individuals from Squall's time would have died. While Sorceresses cannot pass on without giving up the Witch Embodiment, they are utterly incapacitated at such time as they should have died. As a result, there is no reasonable way that Rinoa and Ultimecia can be the same person. You may believe what you like, but I assure you that the R=U theory is completely and unequivocally wrong.

[boys from the dwarf]

yes!!!! finally some good hard proof that ultimecia isnt rinoa. (there was never much proof anyway for ultimecia and rinoa.)R=U is a theory not explained in the game at all but what we are saying in this thread has proof from the game to back it up so R=U is completely false.

[Sir Bahamut]

Finally? This proof has been around for some months now, but anyway. All credit goes to SquallOfSeeD for ordering the FF8 Ultimania, and to DarkAngel for translating it.

Oh, and if that proof isn't enough to demonstrate the holes and flaws of the theory(it should be more than enough really, though), read through the Ultimecia section in the "Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ" found in the following link:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

[muzzer]

Well I think there is a thread about how Rinoa and Ultimecia are the same person, but that's just a theory. The game never comes out and says that. I think Ultimecia is Rinoa in the future so that's how she got the Griever (from Squall). The time compression is the gang going into the future to save Rinoa from becoming the evil sorceress, Ultimecia. They succeed because Squall becomes her knight.

its sort of been confirmed though, ill try and find the article(but it all fits though personally i think rinoa and ulty are one and the same) :choc: :moomba:

[MJN SEIFER]

That's probably flase. I realise the R = U and S = G Theorys are pretty popular but they are false. (IMHV)

Ultimecia returns to Gaia threw Time Movement, as she has done many times but in different forums. Her most recent decent was destroying the world over 10000 years ago. The attemt failed.

[Shiny]

its sort of been confirmed though, ill try and find the article(but it all fits though personally i think rinoa and ulty are one and the same) :choc: :moomba:
Yeah, it's never said officially in the game so that's why I'm not really sure about it. But it would be cooler if Rinoa was Ultimecia in the future.
Masamune: Both are theories. No need to get upset over something petty. Also both have information to back it. But because alot of things seemed vague that's why some people believe the R=U theory. It doesn't really matter either way.

[Sir Bahamut]

Man, I know I sound pushy and stupid here, but there isn't anything vague about the official Squaresoft document telling us it is not possible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. The arguments used to support R=U are vague, true, but that's just because they're not good arguments. Seriously, just read the FAQ I mentioned earlier.

However, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to get around the fact that for Rinoa to be Ultimecia, Rinoa had to have been able to outlive a normal human being, which Squaresoft disproves.

If Ultimecia lives too far into the future for Rinoa to naturally become Ultimecia, then Rinoa is not Ultimecia, QED. End of discussion.

[Shiny]

Man, I know I sound pushy and stupid here, but there isn't anything vague about the official Squaresoft document telling us it is not possible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. The arguments used to support R=U are vague, true, but that's just because they're not good arguments. Seriously, just read the FAQ I mentioned earlier.

However, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to get around the fact that for Rinoa to be Ultimecia, Rinoa had to have been able to outlive a normal human being, which Squaresoft disproves.

If Ultimecia lives too far into the future for Rinoa to naturally become Ultimecia, then Rinoa is not Ultimecia, QED. End of discussion.
Thus, why I obviously don't own a copy of the official squaresoft document. But I do own a copy of FF8. And in the game FF8 it's vague.

[Sir Bahamut]

I'm missing the point. Are you saying that the game should be treated seperately from what outside information Square gives us?

[Shiny]

I'm missing the point. Are you saying that the game should be treated seperately from what outside information Square gives us?
Eh...not really. I don't really pay attention to info outside of the actual game, because it's not all that important to focus on a video game you know? That's just me.

[Sir Bahamut]

Haha, you're right about that at least. :p

[Shiny]

Haha, you're right about that at least. :p
Psh. I will be seeing you outside. :D :p

[Shin Gouken]

It all boils down to one thing really. In the final battle against ultimecia, if ultimecia was to kill Rinoa (as in my first attempt) she would have killed the past version of herself and destroyed her own existence in the process. Rinoa does have Squalls ring but it could have gotten to Ultimecia by a number of different ways. The most obvious being maybe Ultimecia is Rinoas great great great grandaughter or some /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif.

[Winter Nights]

Wait.. It's been awhile since I played FF8, but I don't recall Ultimecia having Squall's ring.

[Masamune·1600]

It all boils down to one thing really. In the final battle against ultimecia, if ultimecia was to kill Rinoa (as in my first attempt) she would have killed the past version of herself and destroyed her own existence in the process.

While R=U as a theory doesn't work, this actually isn't a strike against it. Time Compression (even though never fully completed) isn't subject to a concept like the grandfather paradox (or, here, something similar), because Time Compression doesn't necessarily follow the same rules as "normal time travel." Time Compression, as suggested in-game, involves compressing various states of present, and while the Magic is in effect, these states of present can "coexist" without creating causality and continuity paradoxes. Essentially, each "present" now exists without being dependent upon its own past; in overlapping, they are independent of one another for their own continuity.

Basically, as I see it, the states of present exist independent of each other for the purposes of Time Compression. Changing the past wouldn't alter the future, because these are meaningless categorizations within the framework of Time Compression. All time is one.

In any case, as already shown, Ultimecia created Griever by Drawing the parameters for the GF from Squall's mind ("Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]!").


Wait.. It's been awhile since I played FF8, but I don't recall Ultimecia having Squall's ring.

There's no evidence that she does. It's simply an assumption one is forced to make if one chooses to ignore Griever's having been created during the battle.

[Winter Nights]

There's no evidence that she does. It's simply an assumption one is forced to make if one chooses to ignore Griever's having been created during the battle.
That's what I thought. I've seen the R=U dribble on forums over and over again, but that was the first time anyone used Ultimecia having Squall's ring as proof.

[Slade]

Unlike everyone else, I like the idea of Rinoa being Ultimecia. It's such a cool twist. Wish it was true...but thats just my opinion.

[Christmas]

I like this idea more...



That's debatable

The truth is... Jenova is Ultimecia.
Yep, FFVII's 'background villain' is actually Ultimecia.
There is IRREFUTABLE PROOF in both games.

Jenova can survive travel through space. Thus, Jenova could get from one world to another. If the worlds of FFVII and FFVIII are in fact the same world, then this is fine too - Jenova can survive for millennia, buried in solid rock.

"But Jenova was destroyed!" you all cry. Actually, Jenova's body has the ability to re-form when it's dismembered - even when it's apparently dead.

Both Jenova and Ultimecia are female, and both want to attain God-like power and rule over an entire world.

Jenova has the power to change her form. Ultimecia transforms, as well. Jenova can alter her appearance, gaining the appearance and voice of other people. Jenova and Ultimecia look nothing alike, which proves that they are one and the same, just using different forms.

This is utterly, completely, irrefutably, incontrovertibly, undoubtedly, undeniably, undisputably, indubitablly, unquestionably true.
Coz I sez so.

[Shin Gouken]

I like this idea more...


no arguements here :)

[MJN SEIFER]

I like this idea more...
aLL THOUGH THIS IS PROBABLY JUST A JOKE THE THERORY IS TRUE

It;s the same wolrd and i;s Time movement relaed (Not compression)

[Destai]

R=U is a nice theory and it wouldve been nice if Square went somewhere with it and actually gave Ultimecia a storyline. Squares confirmed its not true though.

[muzzer]

Yeah, it's never said officially in the game so that's why I'm not really sure about it. But it would be cooler if Rinoa was Ultimecia in the future.
Masamune: Both are theories. No need to get upset over something petty. Also both have information to back it. But because alot of things seemed vague that's why some people believe the R=U theory. It doesn't really matter either way.

but when u think about it, it does fit!!
:choc: :moomba:

[boys from the dwarf]

hopefully this thread should end all of those stupid theories about rinoa and ultimecia.

[Shin Gouken]

hopefully this thread should end all of those stupid theories about rinoa and ultimecia.


Amen

[Shiny]

hopefully this thread should end all of those stupid theories about rinoa and ultimecia.
Or not. :D

[Winter Nights]

hopefully this thread should end all of those stupid theories about rinoa and ultimecia.
Not likely as the last one just recently became inactive.

[sub zero]

we know that but griver is osma in ff9 well part of osma as the resides in an eidolon grave and as energy can only chage forms its also ok to assume it also has some elemnts from other summons that die like odin.

[Aurora_sword]

we know that but griver is osma in ff9 well part of osma as the resides in an eidolon grave and as energy can only chage forms its also ok to assume it also has some elemnts from other summons that die like odin.
HOE?
But every Final Fantasy are not related to each other, they are set in different worlds, with the exception of X and X-2

[Luthien]

R is NOT U, although many people out there like to go on thinking this... Man, I hope they finally understand.

Congrats to those who posted the evidence, and thanks.

And about the Osma part... where did you get that?!!! :mad: :mad:

[Christmas]

R is NOT U, although many people out there like to go on thinking this... Man, I hope they finally understand.

Congrats to those who posted the evidence, and thanks.

And about the Osma part... where did you get that?!!! :mad: :mad:

OSMA IS GREVER (http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=70608)