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redluger
11-28-2005, 05:51 AM
to much action not enough plot it dint feel llike a movie just a action event:mad2:

Hawkeye
11-28-2005, 05:56 AM
I strongly agree with this, due to the movies lack of development of its characters mainly. This is mostly on purpose as the producers of the movie said they wouldnt spend time on the character devolpment. They just believe everyone has played FFVII and they wouldnt waste time on the characters. If they had, the movie I believe would have been 1.5 hours longer.

Christmas
11-28-2005, 05:57 AM
So, what did you think of the little plot that is there then?

ljkkjlcm9
11-28-2005, 12:38 PM
No offense but Final Fantasy games use fighting to accomplish everything. It's exactly what I expected the movie to be, a bunch of fights. If you expected much of a plot, honestly what the hell were you thinking?

THE JACKEL

Mirage
11-28-2005, 01:13 PM
ljkkjlcm9 got it right :p. I can't say I really waited for it for too long either, I mostly ignored it until I could download it, so I just waited a few hours when downloading it, I'd say it was worth that wait :p.

Destai
11-28-2005, 05:58 PM
Good movies dont have deep plots and thats never what the movie set out to do. Awesome action was the aim and awesome action was achieved.

SummonerSteph
11-28-2005, 06:50 PM
I think it'll be great but why do you say its a waste? honestly, i can't wait for it to come out! But i can't tell you to change your opinion so you say what you want

Alex7
11-28-2005, 07:16 PM
sorry,but its the best movie ever :)

Vyk
11-28-2005, 07:41 PM
I wouldn't say THAT, but I agree with Destai, Mirage, and lj. The characters were already developed. The point of the movie was to see your old characters in action again. And in action they were.

Tifa's Real Lover(really
11-28-2005, 08:44 PM
yep, still worth the wait:D

ff7+ff10 gurl 100
11-29-2005, 01:17 AM
Im sorry but i thought it was awesome.
All the fights were awesome.
It wasnt what i expected.....cuz it was better than what i expected.

Tifa's Real Lover(really
11-29-2005, 01:28 AM
Im sorry but i thought it was awesome.
All the fights were awesome.
It wasnt what i expected.....cuz it was better than what i expected.
agreed

raskerino
11-29-2005, 01:38 AM
It was fine, it was beautiful, the fights were nicely done but there was nothing else there. The response I've seen is there doesn't need to be anything else... in fact for me and a few others it does. That's opinion, but for the things I consider important like storyline, I expect that a good movie should make you care, this didn't really because the good guys were too invincible, they were developed a little but I didn't like it much and the storyline wasn't in depth enough, because a huge amount of the movie was fighting which didn't allow as interesting a storyline as I think they could've had, given how much time they didn't use. This is just an opinion, but the movie missed a lot of things I believe it could've had. It also succeeded in areas I expected it to succeed in so my expectations were pretty accurate... but my expectations weren't high as I didn't find it better then TSW, in anything but looking good.

As I didn't wait for it thoug, just downloaded a beautiful movie it was worth the night I waited asleep in bed.

lordblazer
11-29-2005, 01:54 AM
No it isn't worth the wait I downloaded this movie with subtitles and everything is goo dbut its just fight no storyline the only thing i noticed is that sephiroth makes his intensions more clearly.


sephiroth wants to use the planet as a space ship blah blah blah he turns back into that sissy guy witht he skinny sword after cloud does some crappy limit breaker attack. And it wasn't even until the end when you saw all the FF7 characters. It aint worth the wait SE like most japaneese gaming companies love to create a hype towards their non-japaneese customers so there non japaneese customers can pay a higher price than their japaneese customers do.

ljkkjlcm9
11-29-2005, 02:25 AM
I still don't see why anyone expected story with this movie. I didn't even expect it to be a real movie. Apparently a bunch of people did. I mean people, it started as what, a 30 minute thing, probably a big fight, then it got hyped because they were doing something with FF7, so they expanded cause people wanted that. The story was just tossed in there, it was added after to sort of connect all the fighting, or so I feel.

Anyone who expected an actual movie, I honestly don't understand what you were thinking.

THE JACKEL

ff7+ff10 gurl 100
11-29-2005, 02:41 AM
I still don't see why anyone expected story with this movie. I didn't even expect it to be a real movie. Apparently a bunch of people did. I mean people, it started as what, a 30 minute thing, probably a big fight, then it got hyped because they were doing something with FF7, so they expanded cause people wanted that. The story was just tossed in there, it was added after to sort of connect all the fighting, or so I feel.

Anyone who expected an actual movie, I honestly don't understand what you were thinking.

THE JACKAL
I agree with you.IMO i was happy with the way the movie turned out.
As i said before i think it was awesome.I understood that there didnt have to be a long explanation of a story but alot of fights which made me a very satisfied :D :)

raskerino
11-29-2005, 03:10 AM
I didn't expect it to be a real movie, but I would've enjoyed it much more if it had been.

Russielloyd
11-29-2005, 07:35 AM
You can sort of blame SE for what people like to believe as a no plot movie, due to the massive flop of Spirits Within, which gave a limited budget to work on Advent Children. If Spirits With hadn't done poorly, then there wouldnt of been budget restrictions and SE could of done more of what they wanted.

IMO, this is a great movie. Also there was only 3 fight scenes before 50 mins, and they wasn't exactly long, so there was plenty of story there before the Buhamut scene came into play.

Dreddz
11-29-2005, 07:15 PM
Yes, finally people agree with me on this.
I disliekd how the movie seemed to of been stretched to of made it longer.
The beginning started off nice, but the next half ( thats like 40 minutes ) was mindless action. The story could of been devolped more in those last scenes. I only approve of the Cloud, sephiroth battle.Which just had to happen. But that was ruined by just way OTT action.

Tifa's Real Lover(really
11-29-2005, 08:45 PM
but wut do u get in the trailers? mostly action.....wut did u get in the movie? mostly action:D it was expected

Mirage
11-29-2005, 09:25 PM
Yes, finally people agree with me on this.
I disliekd how the movie seemed to of been stretched to of made it longer.
The beginning started off nice, but the next half ( thats like 40 minutes ) was mindless action. The story could of been devolped more in those last scenes. I only approve of the Cloud, sephiroth battle.Which just had to happen. But that was ruined by just way OTT action.

It was an action flick. You get lots of action in those.
;]

dark Strife
11-30-2005, 05:57 PM
The action was awesome in the movie but it could of used a bit more story.I still thought it was best movie ever

I think it was worth the wait

Don't double post please ---RSL

sephiroth the dark angel
11-30-2005, 06:08 PM
can i say something.but i saw a trailer of it and in the end it sayd summer 2004 that means the have been taking care remaking all that stuff for 1 year and you tell me it's JUST A MOVIE WITH A LOT OF ACTION!!!!! hahahahaahahaha ur joking if i get that movie and you guis are right im gonna go beserk!!!!

dark Strife
11-30-2005, 06:32 PM
i have the movie

it had some story

Don't double post. Use the edit/delete button instead.

~Void

sephiroth the dark angel
11-30-2005, 06:55 PM
1. it best
2.you didn't double post
3.are the graphics good?
4.how's tyfa

Russielloyd
11-30-2005, 07:01 PM
Theres no girl called "Tyfa" in the movie.

sephiroth the dark angel
11-30-2005, 07:08 PM
.............. ur pushing ur luck little girl

Russielloyd
11-30-2005, 07:18 PM
No, im not, im just telling the truth. There is no girl called "Tyfa" in this movie. Other people will agree too.

If you wasnt totally blind to see the grammer i was using, you would get the joke, but obviously i shouldnt expect it from you.

sephiroth the dark angel
11-30-2005, 07:25 PM
i did get the joke and i only misspeled tifa's name wow scary!!!!! and just because im evil dosen't mean i can't take a jk ok

Russielloyd
11-30-2005, 07:37 PM
Took you like 20 minutes to catch on, nice one.

Anyways, shhhh, let this topic die now.

sephiroth the dark angel
11-30-2005, 07:44 PM
who do u think i am a slug? welll your wrong im sephiroth the dark angel i shall kill any1 that makes fun of me (somehow...)

Russielloyd
11-30-2005, 07:51 PM
Right.....ok.... 0_o

sephiroth the dark angel
11-30-2005, 08:01 PM
[!]that's it *kicks Russielloyd in the balls but sephiroth notices he kicked a hole that means Russielloyd either was a girl or had a sex change so sephiroth starts walking away*[/!]edit: do not do this again. -eestlinc

Russielloyd
11-30-2005, 08:04 PM
For someone who been who this forum for like 10minute, certainly pushing your luck. insults dont go down well.

sephiroth the dark angel
11-30-2005, 08:08 PM
hmmmmmm that's true let's let the tread die before big boss mods come up

eestlinc
11-30-2005, 08:34 PM
*big boss mod*

Please don't kick other members in the balls.

dark Strife
12-01-2005, 02:12 AM
anyways the graphics awesome and tifa gets in a crazy fight.

DarkLord
12-02-2005, 03:28 PM
It's awesome graphics, unfortunately, it's true it got a bit mindless. But all the same, It was worth waiting!

dark Strife
12-03-2005, 11:47 AM
thank you

Dreddz
12-03-2005, 11:18 PM
It was an action flick. You get lots of action in those.
;]
Not 40 straight minutes worth ........

xtreme112
12-03-2005, 11:24 PM
sorry,but its the best movie ever :)

Agreed, best movie ever, you should all be ashamed to badmouth it

Advent Children didn't really need much plot because Final Fantasy VII took care of that, the greatest parts about the movie was the fact that we got to see all our old friends in action again, and we got too see the ultimate power of CG at work and it totally rocked!!!! The great deal of fight scenes were good for the movie. If there were'nt as many fight scenes I'd be majorly dissapointed

Once again, best movie ever

Yuffie514
12-04-2005, 05:59 AM
i'm still going to buy it, just like i did for Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. clearly, it was underrated...

Destai
12-04-2005, 03:02 PM
Not 40 straight minutes worth ........Good thing there wasnt 40 straight minutes worth then.

dark Strife
12-04-2005, 08:27 PM
Agreed

EX-Soilder
12-06-2005, 03:16 AM
Agreed, best movie ever, you should all be ashamed to badmouth it

Advent Children didn't really need much plot because Final Fantasy VII took care of that, the greatest parts about the movie was the fact that we got to see all our old friends in action again, and we got too see the ultimate power of CG at work and it totally rocked!!!! The great deal of fight scenes were good for the movie. If there were'nt as many fight scenes I'd be majorly dissapointed

Once again, best movie ever
I agree! It had enough of a storyline to make a bad ass movie with a lot of action. Best Movie Ever!!!

Winter Nights
12-06-2005, 03:24 AM
I think a little part of me just died. This thread is the murderer.

ff7+ff10 gurl 100
12-06-2005, 03:58 AM
Well i think apart of every one died right after reading this xD

Ishin Ookami
12-09-2005, 02:58 PM
Square is still pushing to get a limited theatrical release for AC outside of japan, and personally I hope they succeed. Not so much I want to see this story telling black hole (note: thats a bad thing) on the big screen, but I would enjoy watching the movie critics tear this pitiful attempt of a film apart.

Yes, its true there is very little real plot in this film. Plot development and resolutions are contrived at best, and flat out hackneyed most of the time. Michael Bay gets alot of flack for the lack of solid plotting in his films, but I can honestly say Armageddon or Con Air beats AC's storytelling direction all hollow. I know there are alot of fans out there that fell in love with FFVII, but put aside the fanboy love for a second (hey, us star wars fans have to do it when it comes to the prequel trilogy) and just fess up. The plot was lame and half assed would be a compliment, considering Nomura didnt even try that hard to build a solid story.

As for the action scenes, I swear It feels as though they fed some six year old kid with ADD 12 bowls of cocoa puffs interveniously and put him in charge of the direction. There really is no point, flow, or an ounce solid storytelling or drama in the action, just hack, chop, jump, lather, rinse, repeat. And if you've been watching Hong Kong kung fu flicks or martial arts anime for any sustained period of time in your life, you've already seen all there is in this film a dozen times over. So yah, there really isnt a whole lot of originality, creativity, heart, inspiration, solid direction, decent writing, or anything worth getting all hot and bothered about. Just alot of very derivative action scenes

Masamune·1600
12-09-2005, 03:53 PM
The plot was lame and half assed would be a compliment, considering Nomura didnt even try that hard to build a solid story.

Kazushige Nojima, not Tetsuya Nomura, was responsible for the Advent Children scenario(s).


As for the action scenes, I swear It feels as though they fed some six year old kid with ADD 12 bowls of cocoa puffs interveniously and put him in charge of the direction. There really is no point, flow, or an ounce solid storytelling or drama in the action, just hack, chop, jump, lather, rinse, repeat. And if you've been watching Hong Kong kung fu flicks or martial arts anime for any sustained period of time in your life, you've already seen all there is in this film a dozen times over. So yah, there really isnt a whole lot of originality, creativity, heart, inspiration, solid direction, decent writing, or anything worth getting all hot and bothered about. Just alot of very derivative action scenes

In your view.

Russielloyd
12-09-2005, 04:32 PM
We've all watched this in subtitles right...and those Bein subs are crap, i got totally confused by them, Hir-subs are better.

Anyways, though people have watched this movies in subtitles, you read it though you cant still wonder what the hell is going on, because your trying to read and watch at the same time. Now if you hear it to understand it, you'll be suprized on how much you missed out, this has happened to me while watching Sonic X. This could be a cause in some people missing out on parts of the story. If you get what i mean in all that.

Vyk
12-09-2005, 06:36 PM
I won't say it's the best movie ever, because its not. But I will say I enjoyed it more than any asians flying on strings action flick. At least the weapons didn't bend when they were swung >_>; (Note, I hated Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and Hero, and suffered through watching both, neither of which had much plot, and the action was horrendous. Though Hero was very beautiful.) At least its not repetitive and contrived like DBZ and has a lot more plot and character. At least actions vary from fight to fight ^_^' So no, I've seen those things, and haven't seen all this before.

Ishin Ookami
12-09-2005, 09:22 PM
so swords bending you have a problem with, but a mechannic and a street thug (barrett and cid) being able to leap several stories up to give cloud a boost your totally fine with? And the whole "lets kidnap midgars children so we can watch them drink diarrhea polluted water, leap like zombie ninja's and then stand around waiting to get blitzed by bahamut" is your idea of pain free story arcs? Can you at least be honest enough to admit your bias or do you prefer to let others see it for themselves?

Ive seen CONSIDERABLY much more hong kong action flicks then those two films, the whole sword bending, people flying, thing is just part of the whole wuxia (fantasy) vibe, and if its not your thing, then it aint. though I have to wonder how you can swallow Final Fantasy's wooden CGI of cloud and co doing the same thing.

Also those who have been familiar with the genre for years agree on the uneven-ness of the you mentioned, in the sense that crouching tiger had a great story (taken from a later chapter in a series of old novels,) yet most of the kung fu wasnt all that great, save for the intense girl on girl fight scene near the end, which almost made up for the lameness of the earlier fight scenes.

Hero on the other hand, was a bit too "out there", story wise. even for even wuxia. The whole "we fought in our minds thing" was weak and the whole spiel about seeing Broken Swords ideals in his calligraphy, was also pretty far fetched. All myself and most others who can read chinese saw was the word "Sword". Though the kung fu itself was alot more intense and well choreographed.

Point is, though these films are definitely better funded, they are not the pinnacle, far from it. Its only because of the huge financial backing that they got any cred outside of HK at all, most of the really good stuff you need to hit up a HK film review site or go on reliable word of mouth. The whole bit with cloud being tossed, Last fight scene in Iron monkey did the same thing (just horizontally). The fight in the forest reminded me of a clumsy re-enactment of the ethereal forest fight between Li Mu Bai and Jen in crouching tiger. the fight through the tunnel could have been pulled from ANY John Woo HK flick, and you wouldnt be able to tell the difference. Tifa's fight against Loz? Yeesh, now we are REALLY getting redundant. I could name twenty films that have some harder hitting and more brutal "girl kicks guys ass" scenario. Wing Chun (michelle yeoh) takes the cake though with one fight ending with the poor bastard getting his genitals burnt to a crisp, AFTER he got his ass kicked good, just cuz he was harassing michelle's in flick gal pal. Hows that for girl power?

Only fight scene that didnt remind me of something else I'd seen was the girl on girl fight at the end, with cloud and sepherioth (oh come on, like you havnt heard THAT one before!:p ). And I found that was the weakest fight of the whole film. Seph parries clouds every attack all through the fight, then just stands there and cries out (NANI?) just before cloud pulls another limit break out of his G-string panties. Why didnt they just have Han solo blinded from hibernation sickness hit him over the head with a stick? What, not quite contrived enough?

bias free I can honestly say this was not a good film in any sense. Im part of the old school crowd that found FFVII to be in every qualititative way, inferior to FFVI. and if AC is what we can expect in terms of quality, from the whole FFVII revival thats approaching in Before Crisis, Dirge of Cerberus, and all the other FFVII stuff, I'll just skip it all or wait for to find it in the bargin bins.

ultimate-dragon
12-09-2005, 09:24 PM
lets start a new topic then

ultimate-dragon
12-09-2005, 09:44 PM
new topic then

ljkkjlcm9
12-09-2005, 09:44 PM
wow Ishin, I too am part of the old school, the group that loves the old games more than the new, I LOVE FFVI, more than any other game.

But you have a problem here. Stop analyzing it like it's some super huge hollywood picture. I'm sorry, I saw exactly what I EXPECTED from the film. If you expected anymore than a lose story and a bunch of action scenes, that's your own fault. It started as what, 15-20minutes? then it got a lot of hype and people got interested, so they expanded and expanded. Plus, when you see a CGI film, or animated film, it's easier to believe the impossible like kids falling down and random guys jumping 7 stories, as opposed to when you see live action.

Your problem is, you were expecting a real movie, and there's nothing we can do about that. I wasn't like on edge to see this film, but it was worth waiting that long for them to lengthen it, because I enjoyed watching it... it WAS entertaining. Anything special.... no, completely horrible, also no. It entertained me, which is more than I can say for some things.

THE JACKEL

Russielloyd
12-09-2005, 10:06 PM
Yeah, Ishin Ookami, shut up, your starting to get on my tits now. Stop going on like a grumpy old man! It's boring now.

Ishin Ookami
12-09-2005, 11:01 PM
hey, I didnt say it wasnt without its good parts, I so totally loved every scene with reno and rude. and I swear I dont know how the same writer could come up with that horrid "kids get brainwashed" subplot, then do something clever like Reno and Rude making "yo momma" jokes then pummeling the seph clones while their busy sulking. I also want to see more of Rufus, as I thought he was cool the way he ended up punking Kadaj. Ive actually reccommended Viewing AC to some friends who were harder on FFVII (all shots aside, it was an alright RPG) then myself on the basis that if they are going to criticize the film, they should at least view it just to see what worked for them, and what didnt. As well as viewing the great stuff with the turks.

But um, yea. everything else just made my head hurt, or bored me. And russelloyed, the same rules of logic and respect that allows you to like the film and speak of those reasons, allows me to dislike the film and speak of it as well. Your gonna have to come up with something other then "stone cold said so" if you want to hear the last of it. Creepy terminology such as "yer gettin on me tits" will only make me shudder in disgust when I read your posts.

But yah, the thing that REALLY gets me knickers in a twist (that one was for you russell :p ) is you just KNOW this film is gonna destroy Spirits Within (a much better film in EVERY regard) Financially. I almost wept when that film went bust at the box office back in the day. It wasnt without its flaws, but it was a damn fine film all the same. Sorta like what would happen if Hayo Miyazaki Ever hooked up with James Cameron and George Lucas.

Vyk
12-09-2005, 11:43 PM
The problem is you're not voicing your opinion. You're trying to debate people's opinion. You're going to be barking at a wall in the persuasion department. People make up their own minds about things. As to your question, yes, it's a lot easier to make cg seem to "fly" naturally than it is to make real live humans seem to fly naturally without matrix style effects. And honestly, I have no idea why they don't use special effects. Strings are not special effects, and they totally destroy the effect they're trying to create. Along with the whole bendy sword thing. I just can't get into wuxia films because they seem so fake based on the reality they're trying to create. It has humans. They gotta work a lot harder to make it look real. In a cg movie it's ALL simulated. It's all fake but they can create their own reality, and therefor things can seem a lot more real based on that reality because the rules of human gravity and stuff don't apply because it's not humans on a string. Its no different than a cartoon. Which can do things and look a lot better than huamans on strings as well.

Destai
12-10-2005, 12:34 AM
But yah, the thing that REALLY gets me knickers in a twist (that one was for you russell :p ) is you just KNOW this film is gonna destroy Spirits Within (a much better film in EVERY regard) Financially. I almost wept when that film went bust at the box office back in the day. It wasnt without its flaws, but it was a damn fine film all the same. Sorta like what would happen if Hayo Miyazaki Ever hooked up with James Cameron and George Lucas.With all of its deep plot and beauty its a shame Spirits Withins makers never actually figured out how entertainment works. The one thing the movie really lacked and it could never be much of a movie without it.

Ishin Ookami
12-10-2005, 02:12 AM
Actually, the CGI in Advent Children had its moments where it was great, and others where it just looked very poor. In some moments of the fight in the forest I swore I was looking at puppets. I can watch Old school CGI such as Reboot or Toy story and still be entertained, so I'd like to think my standards arent absuredly high.

As for making humans look like their flying, Its not flying, just long and high leaps using chi (spiritual energy channelled into physical acts, its alot like the whole Star Wars "Force Thing".). I agree it looks fake, but Ive seen enough of it and have gotten into it enough that I really dont mind. wuxia has its own mythology and rules of physical and spiritual princibles and the genre sticks to them for the most part (Hero and house of Flying Daggers being exceptions where the writers stretched things a bit too far). I dont so much mind the flying in AC, its that if they are going to "Borrow" the wuxia rules, I wish they would have stuck with all of them to keep some semblence of logic, in Crouching Tiger, You never saw Lo do any great leaps (which is all it really is, not flying) because he has NO special spiritual training. In the same way I can buy Tifa, Yuffie, and cloud being able to defy gravity due to their training. vincent I can buy because he has supernatural powers. RedXIII I can believe because he is a creature that has implied innate magical properties (I just have issues with him being able to TOSS cloud) but CID and BARRETT? uh uh. NOPE! Sorry! No WAY! They should not have been able to get that high themselves without a bit of support seeing as how they have NO special training whatsoever. Its stuff like that that bothers me a little because crafting a universe and world that is believeable, with actual laws that cannot be defied, is all part of good fantasy writing. i dont mind different rules because its fantasy after all, but just make those rules make a little bit of sense and stick with them. AC failed to do that, and its just one of the weaknesses that bother me.

One of the things Im VERY picky about is the quality of writing. Im not asking that this be up to the works of dickens mind you, but I am expecting a certain sense that the writer had something in mind when he penned the tale besides $$$ signs and the phrase, there's a sucker born every minute. Advent Children really strikes me as a soulless product that was made by money hungry corp execs and talentless hacks rather then by people who had something resembling a story in mind and wanted to tell it. therefore I agree heartily that it is not at all worth waiting for. My apologies if I offend anyone, Im not angry at anyone on the board (not even you russell) but rather Im ticked at square for letting go of sakaguchi and making nomura their new top director. Ive just never seen nomura as having any real talent as a director or character designer, and I just wish square would find someone who actually has a creative bone in their body rather then someone like Nomura who "Borrows" concepts and reworks them a bit and calls it his own work.


With all of its deep plot and beauty its a shame Spirits Withins makers never actually figured out how entertainment works. The one thing the movie really lacked and it could never be much of a movie without it.

Depends on what your entertained by. I loved sakaguchi's use of symbolism and tightly written dialouge. The scene where aki was mentioning the fourth spirit being a dying little girl who was ready to accept death just gave you such a sense at how hopeless and sad the world had become, and how empathetic she was to the world around her. The writing did so much in so little time, which I thought was great and very absorbing on a intellectual level. And the Scene where the general is shot by a dying soldier, lifts his hands from the wound as its covered in blood and looks up and see's Hein beyond his bloody hand just sent chills down my spine. It wasnt at all a commercial film, but I thought it was something that was made with alot more heart, soul, and intellect then Mummy Returns, which I passed up to go see it a second time while it was in theatres.

Christmas
12-10-2005, 02:33 AM
As long as there is a negative topic about advent children/FF VII, someone here never fail to appear to share his views....

Vyk
12-10-2005, 03:17 AM
I see your point with Cid and Berret. You're not the first person to compare it to Wuxia films. And myself not being a fan of Wuxia I can't honestly see why people keep digging into that. I gues it has similarities. But maybe they're just coincidense? I've read a hand full of interviews and never heard anyone mention borrowing inspiration from movies like that. My personal take is that by the end of FF7 your characters are level 60+ and for the most part, pretty bad-ass. They can do a lot of amazing things a "normal" person of that world couldn't dream of (taking out a dragon in a few swipes? Calling up mystical beasts to tear some hell? Stuff like that). A giant leap being part of their super-human repotoire didn't seem too far-fetched to me for some reason.

Discord
12-10-2005, 03:18 AM
I though it was quite a shame that the film went this way. It was a pretty poor performance.

Action, well yes, you had a lot of action. But really, it wouldn't only fit inside the game itself. As a separate film, well, it doesn't seem to be right.

Story, well no, there is no story. The poor combination of ideas and their realisation is catastrophic. For a final fantasy, where you really want a good cracking plot, this is like soap.

And characters? They inserted them, but really, if you add their lines together they will barely beat the average NPC in FF1.

To summarise, it was quite a poor performance. Nice ideas about the stigma, good-looking animations, but as a film it is a completely nutshell.

Russielloyd
12-10-2005, 03:39 AM
In the prologue book, it says all charcters are level 100 except for Cloud, who's level is far great than anyone elses, obviously breaking the 100 level max.

Vyk
12-10-2005, 03:49 AM
Prologue book? The Once Upon A Smile thing? I need to read that at some point..

Dinnova
12-10-2005, 03:56 AM
In the prologue book, it says all charcters are level 100 except for Cloud, who's level is far great than anyone elses, obviously breaking the 100 level max.
Cloud haxs!
I really enjoy the movie. The only thing that I really didn’t like was that Nanaki/Red XIII only had one line, and that his voice was so unexpected. But other then that, he kick @ss in the fight!
Does anyone else think he wasn't in more just because he was too hard to make?

Russielloyd
12-10-2005, 03:58 AM
That in it yeah, the the prologue book is in the form of like a guide book but with lesser pages. Its goes on about the characters etc..the two novella's and prologue stats and such to the characters prior to Advent Children, ive not read the actual book, though i have read the two novella's. "On A Way To A Smile" & "Case Of Tifa"

EDIT: I think the voice they wanted to do Nanaki's voice is some big star in Japan and cameos as Nanaki, but normally big stars as cameos dont normally get loads of dialog. Maybe he could of had a few more lines, but i'd rather the perfect voice and a 1 liner than a crap voice and loads of dialog.

sephiroth the dark angel
12-10-2005, 09:08 AM
where can i get that prologue book

Russielloyd
12-10-2005, 12:24 PM
You buy it.

sephiroth the dark angel
12-10-2005, 02:39 PM
duh' but where do u buy it?

Russielloyd
12-10-2005, 02:41 PM
Youd buy it from Japan, Duh! Its not hard to find.

sephiroth the dark angel
12-10-2005, 02:54 PM
Japan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Christmas
12-10-2005, 03:35 PM
HERE (http://cgi.ebay.com/Final-Fantasy-7-VII-Advent-Children-prologue-Book-RARE_W0QQitemZ6019859073QQcategoryZ106888QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).

Primus Inter Pares
12-10-2005, 03:56 PM
Japan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...what?

cloud20747
12-11-2005, 03:36 AM
EDIT: I think the voice they wanted to do Nanaki's voice is some big star in Japan and cameos as Nanaki, but normally big stars as cameos dont normally get loads of dialog. Maybe he could of had a few more lines, but i'd rather the perfect voice and a 1 liner than a crap voice and loads of dialog.

Nanaki had 3 lines in the movie. The 1 at the end and 2 on Sierra which the camera wasn't focus on him but you can distinct his voice from the others.

and Barret nor Cid Jumped up and grab Cloud to throw him. Barret pulled him up while standing on a beam from the building and Cid pushed him off his spear as Cloud fell while also standing on beam from building.

BTW loved the movie.

Ishin Ookami
12-11-2005, 06:35 AM
and Barret nor Cid Jumped up and grab Cloud to throw him. Barret pulled him up while standing on a beam from the building and Cid pushed him off his spear as Cloud fell while also standing on beam from building.

BTW loved the movie.

Okay, so riddle me this: since square seemed to be emulating the wuxia formula all throughout the show (huge leaps that seem like flying, chi blasts and exaggerated feats fo skill and strength) how would a mechanic and street thug turned cyborg have the training to leap higher then cloud, who couldnt himself leap that high, who supposedly is the most well trained of the group?

SoulTaker
12-11-2005, 06:55 AM
If any aint seen this movie yet and wants to, just go to youtube.com, just type in advent children, look around and you'll find it, it has english subtitles, if you have flash it should play automatically, as for the wait, I've seen it and it does complete 7 although it wont be nominated for any oscars, but best action sequences I've seen in a long time in any movie, sword fighting on motorcycles what else could you want?

cloud20747
12-11-2005, 10:18 AM
Okay, so riddle me this: since square seemed to be emulating the wuxia formula all throughout the show (huge leaps that seem like flying, chi blasts and exaggerated feats fo skill and strength) how would a mechanic and street thug turned cyborg have the training to leap higher then cloud, who couldnt himself leap that high, who supposedly is the most well trained of the group?

no no no what I saying is that Barret and Cid didn't leap, jump, or skip for that matter to help Cloud get to Bahamut

Christmas
12-11-2005, 10:20 AM
Okay, so riddle me this: since square seemed to be emulating the wuxia formula all throughout the show (huge leaps that seem like flying, chi blasts and exaggerated feats fo skill and strength) how would a mechanic and street thug turned cyborg have the training to leap higher then cloud, who couldnt himself leap that high, who supposedly is the most well trained of the group?

There is a thing called "Climbing"....

Vyk
12-11-2005, 12:34 PM
I really don't see how a huge jump has anything to do with copying wuxia anyway :/

Russielloyd
12-11-2005, 01:59 PM
Nanaki had 3 lines in the movie. The 1 at the end and 2 on Sierra which the camera wasn't focus on him but you can distinct his voice from the others.



What you talking about? Nanaki only has one line.

Odaisé Gaelach
12-11-2005, 03:59 PM
I enjoyed it. Just forgot about the plot and devoted my attention to the action scenes. It was fun.

Ishin Ookami
12-11-2005, 09:21 PM
There is a thing called "Climbing"....

Ummm, they were standing on ruined pillars and metal objects. I doubt they took the stairs, and there wernt any real handholds for them to climb. also it wouldnt be possible for them to climb that high in a few minutes. Id prefer to call it just one more plot contrivance in a movie who's story is built upon them.



I really don't see how a huge jump has anything to do with copying wuxia anyway :/

Huge jumps, absoloutly nothing to do with wuxia. supernatural leaps that give the effect of flying along with being able to combat in midair with problems at all? Everything to do with wuxia.

Vyk
12-11-2005, 09:51 PM
Wuxia just paved the way. What would you say if Wuxia wasn't the inspiration at all? You've seen my lack of Wuxia exposure. And I didn't have to see those movies to get what was going on in AC. Powerful people that can leap and hang in midair. Its a fantasy movie, you suspend belief to soak it in. I could come up with something just like it without any wuxia inspiration at all. And really, even if they were inspired by wuxia, it doesn't mean they were trying to make it wuxia, so they don't have an obligation to live by the rules of wuxia. Its a movie about game characters. Game characters have their own reality which would allow for a lot of different things.

Christmas
12-12-2005, 01:33 AM
Ummm, they were standing on ruined pillars and metal objects. I doubt they took the stairs, and there wernt any real handholds for them to climb. also it wouldnt be possible for them to climb that high in a few minutes. Id prefer to call it just one more plot contrivance in a movie who's story is built upon them.

Why dun you go look at how Yuffie "Climb" stuff in the movie....

cloud20747
12-12-2005, 04:35 AM
What you talking about? Nanaki only has one line.
He has two other lines (when they argue on the Sierra about Kadaj being a larve stage of Sephiroth ) But the camera isn't focused on him so it does seem he's talking but I could be wrong

Zeromus_X
12-12-2005, 04:40 AM
i liked how jenova's intentions were more clearly explained.

now i hope they can translate the novels too...especially the one where aerith is in the lifestream.

i also liked the ending theme song, it sounded like it was from the 80s.

Ishin Ookami
12-12-2005, 06:33 AM
Why dun you go look at how Yuffie "Climb" stuff in the movie....

Yuffie is a trained ninja, which implies that she is versed in combat techniques, highly physically conditioned, and likely versed in the use of chi to enhance her abilities. Cid is a mechanic and pilot, Barrett is a street gang leader and cyborg. Neither is likely to have any knowledge of chi, and its doubtful either could leap the distance of their own head, much less several stories. As for climbing, well Ive already covered that angle. Not only would they have time, but what the hell would they climb to get that high? somehow amidst the wreckage I doubt they found a working escalator. Though we're talking about a film where kids swim in and drink from diarrhea polluted water to gain superhuman leaping abilities while one of their best friends is held hostage in front of them. So I guess compared to that the thought of a working escalator going several stories isnt such a stretch is it? :tongue:


Wuxia just paved the way. What would you say if Wuxia wasn't the inspiration at all? You've seen my lack of Wuxia exposure. And I didn't have to see those movies to get what was going on in AC. Powerful people that can leap and hang in midair. Its a fantasy movie, you suspend belief to soak it in. I could come up with something just like it without any wuxia inspiration at all. And really, even if they were inspired by wuxia, it doesn't mean they were trying to make it wuxia, so they don't have an obligation to live by the rules of wuxia. Its a movie about game characters. Game characters have their own reality which would allow for a lot of different things.

Im not saying that AC was total wuxia, obviously they blended alot of anime references as well (though wuxia and anime tend to share similarities as well, such as the use of chi in martial arts and the superhuman abilities it can give to seasoned warriors). One thing I liked about AC was that the production values blended both and made it something different, Wuxia and anime served as influences and inspiration. There are just far too many similarities to discount as coincidence.

By the way, this is just a bit of trivia. I found Cids combat technique to be very interesting. When he fought off those beasts he used staff fighting techniques, yet he wields a spear. While its unlikely that cid would be that powerful (spears take an incredible amount of strength to wield, four times the amount needed for a sword, and about eight times the strength needed for staffs) there seemed to be a bit of imitation in the sense that there is a character in the early portion of the crouching tiger novel (the film focused on the later chapters) in which trained himself to fight with a spear, but was powerful enough to master it using staff techniques, and was one of the few characters to even come close to defeating li mu bai (chow yun fats character). I just find it interesting and am wondering if the imitation was intentional, or were they trying to make cid look cool? Is there any interviews out there where the animators talk about their inspiration in making the action scenes?

As for game logic... ummm, last movie that tried that was Super Mario Bros. and we all know what a masterpiece that was :rolleyes2. though if what Russel says bout the novella's is true, then they really did apply game logic along with the anime and wuxia influences (Or do you really believe that the similarities are just coincidence?) , which I just have to say is the most wank movie making concept since the brady bunch film sequel.

Christmas
12-12-2005, 08:36 AM
Yuffie is a trained ninja, which implies that she is versed in combat techniques, highly physically conditioned, and likely versed in the use of chi to enhance her abilities. Cid is a mechanic and pilot, Barrett is a street gang leader and cyborg. Neither is likely to have any knowledge of chi, and its doubtful either could leap the distance of their own head, much less several stories. As for climbing, well Ive already covered that angle. Not only would they have time, but what the hell would they climb to get that high? somehow amidst the wreckage I doubt they found a working escalator. Though we're talking about a film where kids swim in and drink from diarrhea polluted water to gain superhuman leaping abilities while one of their best friends is held hostage in front of them. So I guess compared to that the thought of a working escalator going several stories isnt such a stretch is it? :tongue:

They USED to be until the events of FF VII.


Q. Are they superhumans?
A. Everyone seemed to have reached level 99. Only Cloud kind of managed to surpass that level. However, the Turks were much lower level.

How in the world do they battle countless monsters, fight the Shinra to contribute in saving the world during the events of FF VII if they are just regular mechanic and a street gangster.

Besides, Barret is already a terrorist in the game to start with.

Ishin Ookami
12-12-2005, 04:06 PM
They USED to be until the events of FF VII.

How in the world do they battle countless monsters, fight the Shinra to contribute in saving the world during the events of FF VII if they are just regular mechanic and a street gangster.

Besides, Barret is already a terrorist in the game to start with.


As for game logic... ummm, last movie that tried that was Super Mario Bros. and we all know what a masterpiece that was :rolleyes2. though if what Russel says bout the novella's is true, then they really did apply game logic along with the anime and wuxia influences (Or do you really believe that the similarities are just coincidence?) , which I just have to say is the most wank movie making concept since the brady bunch film sequel.

Video games work on their own logic, movies work on theirs. Sometimes you can adapt a few rules to fit the other, but making a movie based entirely on the logic of video games is totally stupid and just ends up tearing down any credibility the story had. As awful as past video game movies have been, at least they aimed to make the story make SOME sense rather then just trying to carry over the video game logic.

Russielloyd
12-12-2005, 04:16 PM
Video games work on their own logic, movies work on theirs. Sometimes you can adapt a few rules to fit the other, but making a movie based entirely on the logic of video games is totally stupid and just ends up tearing down any credibility the story had. As awful as past video game movies have been, at least they aimed to make the story make SOME sense rather then just trying to carry over the video game logic.


Well is it a fantasy movie, its not like Cloud had beaten Buhamut and then leveled up in the movie. its just if you compared his power and strength to what level he might be, it would past the 99 max level point.

Dinnova
12-12-2005, 10:59 PM
He has two other lines (when they argue on the Sierra about Kadaj being a larve stage of Sephiroth ) But the camera isn't focused on him so it does seem he's talking but I could be wrong
I'm prety sure that was Vincent.

Christmas
12-12-2005, 11:09 PM
Video games work on their own logic, movies work on theirs. Sometimes you can adapt a few rules to fit the other, but making a movie based entirely on the logic of video games is totally stupid and just ends up tearing down any credibility the story had. As awful as past video game movies have been, at least they aimed to make the story make SOME sense rather then just trying to carry over the video game logic.

The movie is based on the game, not a stand alone movie. If they don't bring any logic or whatsoever from the original source to the movie, then it wouldn't be a sequel based on the game.

If you look at it other way, my party in FF VII killed countless monsters/invincibe...etc, but suddenly in the movie, they are complete wimps. It isn't logic this way.

Vyk
12-12-2005, 11:46 PM
Agreed, it's basically just a huge FMV for the game. Just because Mario failed, doesn't mean it's a bad concept. As for Berret and Cid, if either of them were 30 or 40 levels higher than Yuffie, they're gonna be able to kick her ass, whether she's a highly trained ninja or not. That's game logic. That's how they can do the things she can do. Its the video game's world. And it works for this. All RPGs are based on random average joes that become way more than average by the end of the game. Its obviously something any NPC regular human can do, they just dont. Again, game logic. NOT Wuxia. And just because it's not wuxia doesn't mean its stupid :P Wuxia isn't the only thing that deals with high leaps and insane strenght and/or powers.

cloud20747
12-13-2005, 12:17 AM
I'm prety sure that was Vincent.
I meant during the arguement. His line is the line after Cait Sith tell Yuffie to shut her mouth for the first time the camera points down at Red showing his mouth moving then it cuts back to Vincent and then Tifa says If Cloud knows what they know. But you could listen to the voices and hear the difference from Vincent and Red. Listen to Red's Line at the end then listen in the scene I'm talking about.

Ishin Ookami
12-13-2005, 05:42 AM
Agreed, it's basically just a huge FMV for the game. Just because Mario failed, doesn't mean it's a bad concept. As for Berret and Cid, if either of them were 30 or 40 levels higher than Yuffie, they're gonna be able to kick her ass, whether she's a highly trained ninja or not. That's game logic. That's how they can do the things she can do. Its the video game's world. And it works for this. All RPGs are based on random average joes that become way more than average by the end of the game. Its obviously something any NPC regular human can do, they just dont. Again, game logic. NOT Wuxia. And just because it's not wuxia doesn't mean its stupid :P Wuxia isn't the only thing that deals with high leaps and insane strenght and/or powers.

Maybe you just need to see or read more wuxia to see the resemblence. I can scan some images from the crouching tiger graphic novels and show you images that look like development sketches for key scenes in AC if you'd like? yes superhuman leaps and feats of aerial agility are not exclusive to the wuxia genre, but in the case of AC's style, yes it is very much imitating and taking its inspiration from wuxia and anime.


The movie is based on the game, not a stand alone movie. If they don't bring any logic or whatsoever from the original source to the movie, then it wouldn't be a sequel based on the game.

If you look at it other way, my party in FF VII killed countless monsters/invincibe...etc, but suddenly in the movie, they are complete wimps. It isn't logic this way.

You do understand though that movies and video games are two very different mediums, and whatever storytelling method you use for either medium has be adapted to suit that medium. Video games need writing and stories that can fit with the gameplay. The structure and flow has to be different from that of a novel, and certain points of the story can be told via gameplay, others by dialogue. Movies on the otherhand need something called, plot coherence. The story needs to be a priority, and making it flow, operate by cinematic rules of storytelling, and be able to make sense. film makers making a movie out of a video game can carry over PLOT points from the game, but its the height of idiocy to try and carry over gameplay concepts and make them fit into cinematic form. Metal Gear Solid DOES merge cinematic elements with gameplay elements, but does so in a satirical fashion. In game plus modes there is always in jokes and satirical humor over special items obtained by completing the game once. Weapons with unlimited ammo are explained using stupid logic, and we the gamer laugh WITH the characters, not at them. Advent Children is attempting this and trying to be serious, but if you look at it from a storytelling perspective, its a really bad idea. I mean hideously bad. It just doesnt work. The mediums are just far too different to blend without some sacrificing or creativity. To just say "they are all at so and so level 100" without any sort of background story that explains their superhuman abilities just further shows how little attention was really given to the story. It further makes these animated icons into products and computerized pixels shaped into a particular form instead of characters that the writer tried to make feel real and tell a story with a heart. Considering how obvious AC ripped off anime and wuxia, Im being generous for key scenes and allow the storytelling the liberties that ripping off these mediums allows. Without that generosity, the story makes no sense at all. If cloud is the strongest of the bunch, how do all the other characters get higher then he is to help him get higher? even with the "level 100" cop out it still doesnt explain how they can get higher then a character who is supposedly at a higher level then they are. However granting them he wuxia and anime storytelling influences, we can all assume that RedXIII, Yuffie, and tifa all used their innate chi manipulating abilities to consistently leap higher and higher from various points in the structure.

FutureEmperor
12-13-2005, 06:22 AM
if you wanted to see this movie for the drama and story, you will get a taste but you wont be satisfied, but if you came to see a movie with awesome CGI and great fight sequences its deffinately worth it, i can think of tons of movies that are more popular than AC that are worse. i mean seriously.

this movie is great just watch it a be impressed, i doubt youll see better CGI and action like this for a while.



p.s. im commiting a sin by not reading the above posts so sorry about that.

Christmas
12-13-2005, 07:41 AM
They climbed.....and I dun really know why only Tifa, Red XIII and Yuffie are limited to these CHI thingy you talking about and personally, I dun really know these CHI thingy did apply to the movie.

Just for References, you do know some of Cid's limit break specialize on jumping.

I told you all of them are equally strong through the game events and jumping from various structures to structures is pretty possible for everyone of them.

Before Cloud appear and fight Shin Bahamut, the others were already fighting on the beams and structures. So it do explain they have ways to get that high and most probably they climbed.

Also. I dun really know why you said they jump higher than Cloud. They just merely appear at higher structures(They might have gotten into action first or start at a higher platform or jumped/climbed to that position to await Cloud.) than Cloud is and give him a hand while other jumped as to where Cloud's position is and gave him a push that's all.

It didn't really show anywhere that when two of them jumped together, Cloud jumped lower since Cloud make one straight jump while others could have jumped from platforms to platforms.


LET'S ANAYSIS.

After Cloud uses his Braver move or your so called Wuxia or CHI move whatever you think it is on Shin Bahamut, It crashes onto the ground preparing for an attack.


http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/231/1014ca.jpg

Look at his screenshot here, the group's head are looking up, so they must be in a platform pretty similar to where Shin Bahamut is.Take note that Barret isn't in the screenshot.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8446/1006lj.jpg

So Cloud make a leap and saw Barret awaiting him in a higher platform.Barret could have already on the higher platform before Cloud in the start.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/102.jpg

From this one, Cloud engaged Shin Bahamut but loses balance and started falling.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/103.jpg

Cid who appeared in the first screenshot, shows up in a lower platform than where Cloud is and give him a push. Take note that this is crucial since Cloud already wasted a lot of time this way and Shin Bahamut had already soar into the sky by now. This can apply to everyone else who will have jumped or climbed from platforms to platforms or such to a higher level than Cloud.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/104.jpg

And Red XIII leapted out and give Cloud a push.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/105.jpg

Followed by Yuffie.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/106.jpg

Take note that Vincent is already in a higher platform than Cloud is since he had enough time to get this high from Cloud's fall.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/107.jpg

And Tifa.

Aeris is irrelevant.


To just say "they are all at so and so level 100" without any sort of background story that explains their superhuman abilities just further shows how little attention was really given to the story

Didn't the game show how superhuman they are....like Cid can uses his limit break to jump high up into the air and Yuffie uses a big ball of energy against the enemies. Must they repeat all this in the movie to tell you? If you want to question it, you shouldn't question the movie but question the game instead.

Besides, all my characters are level 99 too.:D

Vyk
12-13-2005, 07:41 AM
Like I said, it's about a game where people have high levels. That doesn't exactly equate to chi. Its just... they're "powerful" and can do things. Cloud could have gotten up there himself. But he would have only went so far. I guess he was being lazy and relying on his team mates. But I mean he did get up there to save Berret. So its not like he couldn't. They had to have an excuse to involve everyone. And "Berret and Cid aren't trained in martial arts so they have to sit this scene out" doesn't really cut it when it has nothing to do with martial arts. I'd say they got in key positions to throw him to keep the momentum going, but momentum was kinda lost with each throw, especially Cids where he stopped and stood on his spear for a time. I suppose Cloud probably could have jumped from beam to beam himself to at least get to the top. But I think it's more a sentimentality thing than anything else. The team helps Cloud get to his goal. But leaping or throwing, neither would have gotten him there either way. It was a leap of faith and if Aeris hadn't helped out, he would have only went so far and fell back in a very anti-climactic manner. But the fact that Aeris took on physical form and helped throw him isn't in itself all that logical. Its just not meant to represent our physical reality. Or the reality given in martial arts lore. It has its own reality.

Edit: :<3: Unknowns

Edit2: Oh, I guess your name is Christmas now o_O

cloud20747
12-13-2005, 01:32 PM
Great Job explaning it Christmas!!! ^_^

Ishin Ookami
12-14-2005, 05:32 AM
They climbed.....and I dun really know why only Tifa, Red XIII and Yuffie are limited to these CHI thingy you talking about and personally, I dun really know these CHI thingy ...

considering Ive been talking about wuxia all through this thread, and what chi is, how it empowers warrior in wuxia films and how AC emulated that style, and based on the rather blatant imitation how illogical it is that cid and barrett got up there, its rather pointless for me to state it yet AGAIN since its unlikely you would read my post this time around, and just try to continue debating pointlessly.

speaking of not bothering to repeat myself...



Like I said, it's about a game where people have high levels. That doesn't exactly equate to chi. Its just... they're "powerful" and can do things. Cloud could have gotten up there himself. But he would have only went so far. I guess he was being lazy and relying on his team mates. But I mean he did get up there to save Berret. So its not like he couldn't. They had to have an excuse to involve everyone. And "Berret and Cid aren't trained in martial arts so they have to sit this scene out" doesn't really cut it when it has nothing to do with martial arts. I'd say they got in key positions to throw him to keep the momentum going, but momentum was kinda lost with each throw, especially Cids where he stopped and stood on his spear for a time. I suppose Cloud probably could have jumped from beam to beam himself to at least get to the top. But I think it's more a sentimentality thing than anything else. The team helps Cloud get to his goal. But leaping or throwing, neither would have gotten him there either way. It was a leap of faith and if Aeris hadn't helped out, he would have only went so far and fell back in a very anti-climactic manner. But the fact that Aeris took on physical form and helped throw him isn't in itself all that logical. Its just not meant to represent our physical reality. Or the reality given in martial arts lore. It has its own reality.

Edit: :<3: Unknowns

Edit2: Oh, I guess your name is Christmas now o_O

FOR THE LAST TIME! FFVII ADVENT CHILDREN EMULATES THE STYLE OF WUXIA AND ANIME ALMOST TOO A TEE, IT DOESNT MEAN IT TRIES TO BE WUXIA ITS JUST IMITATING. NEXT TIME YOU POST A REPLY THAT TRIES TO CONVICNE ME OF SOMETHING IVE ALREADY STATED, IM GOING TO REPLY WITH QUOTES OF ALL THE TIMES IVE STATED AC EMULATES AND IMITATES ANIME AND WUXIA, NOT JUST ON THIS THREAD BUT IN EVERY OTHER THREAD ON HERE, AND BELIEVE ME THATS A HELLUVA LOT. IF YOU CANT SEE THE RESEMBLENCE IN THE ACTION SCENES AND ABILITIES THEN YOU EITHER ARENT AT ALL FAMILIAR WITH THE CONCEPT, OR ARE IN DENIAL. I DO NOT INTEND TO FLAME YOU, BUT IM TIRED OF REPEATING MYSELF. IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING ELSE TO SAY ON THIS TOPIC BESIDES "ITS FOLLOWING VIDEO GAME LOGIC" OR "ITS NOT WUXIA OR ANIME" THEN SAY IT. LIKE HOW IS IT NOT A ACT OF STUPIDITY TO TRY AND PUT VIDEO GAME RULES INTO A MOTION PICTURE? OTHERWISE I DONT INTEND TO CONTINUE REPEATING MYSELF.

and thank you for making my point for me, on the sense that you even admit that the story makes not one lick of sense from a storytelling perspective. People like to make fun of the initial translation Akira recieved in the eighties, and how it didnt make a lick of sense. Ive seen the early translation of akira and believe me, dippy translation and poor acting aside, it made alot more sense that all the crap in AC. But the films biggest sin, the absolute worst thing they did with the film is have Aerieth come back. Her in game death helped make the story feel a bit more serious and personal (and believe me, FFVII needed all the help it could get in that regard). Bringing her back in a physical sense, where she helps impact the living world was a huge mistake. She's DEAD people, get over it. But it appears that Square is applying the single absolute rule of marvel comics to the FFVII universe as well, "only Bucky stays dead". Having her coucil cloud on his self destructive mood swings, cure the geostigma, resurrect cloud, and tend to sick children at the end was all the most contrived and fanboyish piece of writing Ive seen in a long time.

Christmas
12-14-2005, 07:27 AM
considering Ive been talking about wuxia all through this thread, and what chi is, how it empowers warrior in wuxia films and how AC emulated that style, and based on the rather blatant imitation

You called this debating....??? All you said is they aren't the Wuxia and CHI gang so they can't jump. Case Closed...... Do you have any proofs or anything official and such to said this rather than you find it similar from those Wuxia flims you watch and made a conclusion about it.

I listed out the analysization clearly in my previous post and tell you about their origin of superhuman abilities.

Your statement sounds just like a personal rant from you yourself,

And also, they do not use whatsoever CHI to empower themselves. They uses spiritual energies when they unleash a limit break.


how illogical it is that cid and barrett got up there, its

Right. So, what should Barret and Cid be doing in the movie if they aren't suppose to fight or whatsoever since they are not part of the Wuxia or CHI gang?


FOR THE LAST TIME! FFVII ADVENT CHILDREN EMULATES THE STYLE OF WUXIA AND ANIME ALMOST TOO A TEE, IT DOESNT MEAN IT TRIES TO BE WUXIA ITS JUST IMITATING. NEXT TIME YOU POST A REPLY THAT TRIES TO CONVICNE ME OF SOMETHING IVE ALREADY STATED, IM GOING TO REPLY WITH QUOTES OF ALL THE TIMES IVE STATED AC EMULATES AND IMITATES ANIME AND WUXIA, NOT JUST ON THIS THREAD BUT IN EVERY OTHER THREAD ON HERE, AND BELIEVE ME THATS A HELLUVA LOT.IF YOU CANT SEE THE RESEMBLENCE IN THE ACTION SCENES AND ABILITIES THEN YOU EITHER ARENT AT ALL FAMILIAR WITH THE CONCEPT, OR ARE IN DENIAL. I DO NOT INTEND TO FLAME YOU, BUT IM TIRED OF REPEATING MYSELF. IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING ELSE TO SAY ON THIS TOPIC BESIDES "ITS FOLLOWING VIDEO GAME LOGIC" OR "ITS NOT WUXIA OR ANIME" THEN SAY IT.
LIKE HOW IS IT NOT A ACT OF STUPIDITY TO TRY AND PUT VIDEO GAME RULES INTO A MOTION PICTURE? OTHERWISE I DONT INTEND TO CONTINUE REPEATING MYSELF.

You should just go make one thread about your Wuxia and CHI opinions and turn it into a sticky thread then you will never need to post it again. Anyway, the point I want to show is that they can get that high.

cloud20747
12-14-2005, 07:42 AM
Bringing her back in a physical sense, where she helps impact the living world was a huge mistake. She's DEAD people, get over it. But it appears that Square is applying the single absolute rule of marvel comics to the FFVII universe as well, "only Bucky stays dead". Having her coucil cloud on his self destructive mood swings, cure the geostigma, resurrect cloud, and tend to sick children at the end was all the most contrived and fanboyish piece of writing Ive seen in a long time.

We all know that she is dead. And she's not coming back. The part at the end was an nod to a Glitch in the game. When you come back to the church in the slums after Aerith dies some people say that they see a GHOST of her tending to the flowers or just standing there with the two kids that are wondering were she is. So the whole part about her at the end was just a nod to that glitch.
We understand that these are your OPINIONS and we can't change them and the same goes to u. if you do like the movies rules FINE go make your own movie with YOUR rules and then you can be right all the hell you want to!

ITS JUST A smurfING MOVIE GET OVER IT!!!!

EDIT: I like how they added the Smurfing instead my f-bomb :D

ThroneofDravaris
12-14-2005, 07:52 AM
Ishin Ookami, if you can find a quote from one of the producers of AC that states that they took inspirations from ‘WUXIA’ then we may be more incline to believe you. Otherwise, most of the people here have probably never seen this genre, or even heard of it.

Failing that, perhaps it may be useful to post some screen shots from AC that you consider are imitative of ‘WUXIA’ style, alongside shots from other films that use the same effect.

Ultimately though, I think you talk far too much about a movie you don’t even like. You’ve already made a thread about how much you hated the movie, is it really necessary to bring up the same points again in a fresh thread?

Vyk
12-14-2005, 07:55 AM
Its not that I"m not reading your posts. We're both doing the same thing. You keep saying "it borrowed from wuxia, so it should live by wuxian rules" where I keep saying it's a movie based on a video game, that has its own rules for empowerment that don't abide by wuxia lore. The only similarity is that they can use their power to do super-human feats. But the key difference is, that because the game involved a diverse crew, not just masters of martial arts are granted these powers. That's it. As long as you keep saying "But they can't do this because..." I'll keep following up with "But they can do this, and they did do this, because..." But really, if you hate the movie so much, why bother with it so much?

Kheldar
12-14-2005, 03:16 PM
Why are we arguing??? Final Fantasy VII:AC no matter who/what/when/how it resembles something else is still the best movie I have seen since Matrix graced the local cinema screen... I am life-long avid FF fan and I ~still~ vibrate at high speeds just thinking about going home and watching it...

Stop knocking it and doing the whole petty squabble thing and just sit back, whack the tv up to full blast, grab some popcorn and bask in the computer-rendered godliness that is Advent Children...

You know ya wanna :P

Masamune·1600
12-14-2005, 04:50 PM
Okay, so riddle me this: since square seemed to be emulating the wuxia formula all throughout the show (huge leaps that seem like flying, chi blasts and exaggerated feats fo skill and strength) how would a mechanic and street thug turned cyborg have the training to leap higher then cloud, who couldnt himself leap that high, who supposedly is the most well trained of the group?

Ignoring the fact that "chi blasts" are nonexistent in the world of FFVII, as it follows its own mythology, rather than something imposed by "our world," there's no evidence that Barret or Cid outjumps Cloud. In all likelihood, they reached their heights through a series of smaller jumps. This shouldn't be surprising, given the substantial amount of leaping going on during that scene. Moreover, "training" has nothing to do with the leaps; anything "superhuman" like that would be the result of the physical expression of one's inherent Spirit Energy.

Ultimately, by hurling Cloud upward, they allowed him to get higher than any of them (cloud obviously included) could have reached without assistance.


Yuffie is a trained ninja, which implies that she is versed in combat techniques, highly physically conditioned, and likely versed in the use of chi to enhance her abilities. Cid is a mechanic and pilot, Barrett is a street gang leader and cyborg. Neither is likely to have any knowledge of chi, and its doubtful either could leap the distance of their own head, much less several stories. As for climbing, well Ive already covered that angle. Not only would they have time, but what the hell would they climb to get that high? somehow amidst the wreckage I doubt they found a working escalator. Though we're talking about a film where kids swim in and drink from diarrhea polluted water to gain superhuman leaping abilities while one of their best friends is held hostage in front of them. So I guess compared to that the thought of a working escalator going several stories isnt such a stretch is it?

Yuffie is a trained ninja, which implies...nothing of what you suggested. Again, you are attempting to interpose the fantastical standards of a different mythology on FFVII. Just because you claim the fighting is derivative of wuxia does not mean that FFVII is bound by "chi" and the like. Extraordinary ability (that ability far beyond normal human limitations) is a result of Spirit Energy--the supernatural--rather than any normal training, anyway.

I've explained the matter of the children before, both as regards the plot and certain symbolic elements. You can choose to disagree with the construction and/or presentation of the plot, but you don't help your case by simply disregarding it. You might say, "the plot as presented is weak," or perhaps, "the way the story is unveiled is needlessly esoteric, especially for those unversed in the FFVII mythos," but you prove nothing by misrepresenting and/or misunderstanding it.

As to the matter of Cloud exceeding level 99, the other characters being at that point, and the Turks being below it, try to conceptualize the notion without viewing it in absolute quantitative terms. Obviously, a numerical component derivative of defeated monsters wouldn't make sense in light of a non-RPG structured battle. Think of it simply as "Cloud is more powerful than the other party members, who are in turn more powerful than the Turks." If one associates a high level, however, with powerful Spirit Energy and/or significant combat experience, it helps to explain why they are so capable.


. But the films biggest sin, the absolute worst thing they did with the film is have Aerieth come back. Her in game death helped make the story feel a bit more serious and personal (and believe me, FFVII needed all the help it could get in that regard). Bringing her back in a physical sense, where she helps impact the living world was a huge mistake. She's DEAD people, get over it. But it appears that Square is applying the single absolute rule of marvel comics to the FFVII universe as well, "only Bucky stays dead". Having her coucil cloud on his self destructive mood swings, cure the geostigma, resurrect cloud, and tend to sick children at the end was all the most contrived and fanboyish piece of writing Ive seen in a long time.

You seem to neglect the rather salient fact that, in spite of everything, Aeris is still dead. Her ability to intercede in the material affairs of Gaia was implied in the ending of FFVII--she can help the Planet even in death, as she seems to embody the will of the Lifestream. It would have been ridiculous, I completely agree, to even consider resurrecting Aeris. However, allowing her to spiritually intercede is at least appropriate both with regards to the FFVII mythology, and the symbolism intrinsic to both the original game and the movie itself.

Ishin Ookami
12-15-2005, 05:22 AM
You seem to neglect the rather salient fact that, in spite of everything, Aeris is still dead. Her ability to intercede in the material affairs of Gaia was implied in the ending of FFVII--she can help the Planet even in death, as she seems to embody the will of the Lifestream. It would have been ridiculous, I completely agree, to even consider resurrecting Aeris. However, allowing her to spiritually intercede is at least appropriate both with regards to the FFVII mythology, and the symbolism intrinsic to both the original game and the movie itself.

Spiritually intercede my butt. She physically intercedes most of the damn time. She is at least partially responsible for curing the geostigma, she throws cloud through the giga flare (a scene that literally made me stop the film to wait for my throbbing temples to cease aching), she resurrects him, tends to sick and ailing children. That goes way beyond spiritual involvement.

As for the rest, and why Im not copying and pasting now



Just because you claim the fighting is derivative of wuxia does not mean that FFVII is bound by "chi" and the like. Extraordinary ability (that ability far beyond normal human limitations) is a result of Spirit Energy--the supernatural--

I officially declare this discussion between you and myself over until you at lest go do a google search on "Chi". You dont realize it, but in that sentence you actually ended up contradicting yourself quite substantially. I refuse to engage in any sort of discussion with someone who unknowingly contradicts himself this excessively in a sentence. Its rather unfair of myself to do so I believe. Though I am going to email that quote to those in my tai chi chuan class, I think they will find it rather amusing.


Its not that I"m not reading your posts. We're both doing the same thing. You keep saying "it borrowed from wuxia, so it should live by wuxian rules" where I keep saying it's a movie based on a video game, that has its own rules for empowerment that don't abide by wuxia lore. The only similarity is that they can use their power to do super-human feats. But the key difference is, that because the game involved a diverse crew, not just masters of martial arts are granted these powers. That's it. As long as you keep saying "But they can't do this because..." I'll keep following up with "But they can do this, and they did do this, because..." But really, if you hate the movie so much, why bother with it so much?

Personally, its not the emulation I mind, its the fact that its so half assed. you cant just take bits and pieces, blatantly emulate a genre, and then decide at certain plot points your not going to pay attention anymore. Its contradictory to the story your writing. Every story, regardless of genre, should have a good flow. If they wanted to emulate wuxia and anime, then fine. Hunky dory, I like em both so go knock yourselves out. But both genre's have rules, and if they wanted to throw it a bit of a different mythology in there, fine go ahead. I like shows like gargoyles and babylon 5 because they successfully involve different mythologies respectfully and dont cancel out other plot or the seperate mythologies that are included, established, or refferrenced in doing so. The writers and creators gave a crap and actually thought out everything so that wouldnt happen.

The problem with barrett and cid, or at least the problem I have with them getting higher then cloud did is that in no storytelling context dealt with in game, in the movie, or applicable by the genre's square was emulating or including (such as the refferrences to norse mythologies) are these characters capable of getting that high on their own physical or spiritual exertions. I can understand everyone else doing so due to storytelling concepts that have been mentioned in the past, but these two the storyline just doesnt allow you to understand that they have the ability to do so. And no, the whole level 99 thing doesnt count as a storytelling concept. A gameplay concept yes, and if this was still a game story I wouldnt have a problem with this.

Winter Nights
12-15-2005, 05:41 AM
Spiritually intercede my butt. She physically intercedes most of the damn time. She is at least partially responsible for curing the geostigma, she throws cloud through the giga flare (a scene that literally made me stop the film to wait for my throbbing temples to cease aching), she resurrects him, tends to sick and ailing children. That goes way beyond spiritual involvement.

As for the rest, and why Im not copying and pasting now




I officially declare this discussion between you and myself over until you at lest go do a google search on "Chi". You dont realize it, but in that sentence you actually ended up contradicting yourself quite substantially. I refuse to engage in any sort of discussion with someone who unknowingly contradicts himself this excessively in a sentence. Its rather unfair of myself to do so I believe. Though I am going to email that quote to those in my tai chi class, I think they will find it rather humorous.
The first part I have no problem with, aside from the fact that you got worked up enough over a movie that you had to stop it. (WTF?)

As for the second part, his point is that you are inferring that "chi", something of our own mythos, has to be taken into account when talking about the fictional fighting styles of fictional characters in a fictional world. If you don't like the characters or the story or the fact that Aerith plays a direct role.. That's fine, cause I agree with you on alot of those points. But, you aren't arguing that. You're arguing technicalities of a fantasy story. One that, while mimicing wuxia to a degree, makes it's own rules when it comes to spirituality and power. That's a losing battle, as all your arguments are focused existing mythology and techniques that aren't necessarily going to apply to a fictional world.


Personally, its not the emulation I mind, its the fact that its so half assed. you cant just take bits and pieces, blatantly emulate a genre, and then decide at certain plot points your not going to pay attention anymore. Its contradictory to the story your writing. Every story, regardless of genre, should have a good flow. If they wanted to emulate wuxia and anime, then fine. Hunky dory, I like em both so go knock yourselves out. But both genre's have rules, and if they wanted to throw it a bit of a different mythology in there, fine go ahead. I like shows like gargoyles and babylon 5 because they successfully involve different mythologies respectfully and dont cancel out other plot or the seperate mythologies that are included, established, or refferrenced in doing so. The writers and creators gave a crap and actually thought out everything so that wouldnt happen.

The problem with barrett and cid, or at least the problem I have with them getting higher then cloud did is that in no storytelling context dealt with in game, in the movie, or applicable by the genre's square was emulating or including (such as the refferrences to norse mythologies) are these characters capable of getting that high on their own physical or spiritual exertions. I can understand everyone else doing so due to storytelling concepts that have been mentioned in the past, but these two the storyline just doesnt allow you to understand that they have the ability to do so. And no, the whole level 99 thing doesnt count as a storytelling concept. A gameplay concept yes, and if this was still a game story I wouldnt have a problem with this.
Firstly, again, this is a fantasy story, so they can take bits and pieces and ignore the rest, if they so choose to. Sure, it may be lazy, but it's there decision.

Secondly, while I agree with Barret.. Cid had a "Jump" type limit break, as he was FF7's lancer. So, his ability is actually in the game. Barret.. I make no excuses there.

Personally, I agree with you that it was lazy filmwork. But at the same time, it was there decision. You can choose to enjoy the movie for what it is, just a 'For the fans" flick.. Or ignore it. All this arguing over technicalities is pointless. On both sides.

You people take this crap to seriously.

ThroneofDravaris
12-15-2005, 06:01 AM
if this was still a game story I wouldnt have a problem with this.
...

...

...

...What?

Winter Nights
12-15-2005, 06:04 AM
...

...

...

...What?
Yeah.. You do realize that this, while being a movie, is a continuation of the game.. Thus technically making it a 90 minute FMV.. Hell, it starts off with the last FMV of the game.

Christmas
12-15-2005, 06:55 AM
but these two the storyline just doesnt allow you to understand that they have the ability to do so

I am really interested to know what the storyline tell you about them or what you expect them to do in the movie.


The vital force believed in Taoism and other Chinese thought to be inherent in all things. The unimpeded circulation of chi and a balance of its negative and positive forms in the body are held to be essential to good health in traditional Chinese medicine.

n 1: the circulating life energy that in Chinese philosophy is thought to be inherent in all things; in traditional Chinese medicine the balance of negative and positive forms in the body is believed to be essential for good health


什 么 ?

Ishin Ookami
12-15-2005, 04:48 PM
Easy, how bout having those two perform some sort of distracting pattern, use their abilities in different ways to combat bahamut or perhaps giving reno and rude a hand in fighting the seph twins. When I originally read about the design of the three new villains, I assumed the battle would be Vincent, barrett, and Red XIII vs gunblade wielding dude, since these three have abilities more well suited to combat a quick, distance attack oriented combatant, and Tifa, Yuffie, and Cid would fight Loz since these three are the more physical oriented combatants. while cloud fought against Kadaj. This sticks with the whole, cloud is most powerful formula the game at least wants you to believe. of course all our hero's would win, but be wounded in some way leading to a ultimate showdown with sephiroth in which there would a be a dramatic, against all odds battle where teamwork, sacrifice, and blood would be the order of the day. But would still fail against sephs awesome might resulting in some sort of miricle (aerieth rejuvenating the party somehow perhaps) that would result in their triumph, but not before seph got his licks in and made his pressence felt.

the model Ive described isnt anything ive thought up really, its a model that cinema and comics has been using for years (X-men in particular has used this model repeatedly throughout the years). The film wanted us to believe that the seph clones were ultra powerful, this model would have lead us to see it. The film wants us to believe that sephiroth is nigh a god, the miracle (which could take any form the writers choose) would prove that seph could and did wipe the floor with our hero's, and it required a miracle for them to come out on top. But just going the route of cloud doing all the work, everyone else doing their Iron monkey impression to help out, even if it doesnt make a damn lick of sense to do so, Its just as derivative, and make's no sense.

Yes, it was the writers choice to be so half assed about the plot, and thus they deserve to take their licks about it. Action scenes that look good on a presentation format isnt enough. Ive seen enough of this stuff that to capture my attention, the storytelling has to make sense. even if not espescially in the fight scenes. maybe to those to whole jean claude and steven segal are the pinnacle of martial arts film making think this film is just fine, but Ive seen better almost all my life, and know that square as a company is capable of doing better then this on a storytelling basis. Just because Nomura was heading up the project, and good moviemaking failed them once before doesnt exscuse this piece of storytelling rubbish.

ljkkjlcm9
12-15-2005, 05:16 PM
Firstly, I enjoy Steven Seagal movies solely for Steven Seagal, second I enjoyed this movie solely for the fight scenes. I honestly didn't give a crap about the story when watching it. People had been saying stuff about the geostigma or whatever before the movie and I didn't care, I just wanted to see all the fighting. I enjoyed watching it, and that's all that matters

THE JACKEL

Jess
12-15-2005, 05:56 PM
I didn't ready every reply in this thread - it would of taken forever.

I loved the movie, it was definatley worth waiting for it. Why complain about the amount of action though, seriously - what else do you expect? I do wish it was longer and had more story added in, though. :(

Russielloyd
12-15-2005, 06:12 PM
Yes, Jess knows it! Don't mess with Jess. Though it is a waist reading all because your reading all these valid points and Ishin questions it again making you annoyed. So no-ones blames you!

Masamune·1600
12-15-2005, 07:03 PM
Spiritually intercede my butt. She physically intercedes most of the damn time. She is at least partially responsible for curing the geostigma, she throws cloud through the giga flare (a scene that literally made me stop the film to wait for my throbbing temples to cease aching), she resurrects him, tends to sick and ailing children. That goes way beyond spiritual involvement.

Spiritual intercession can involve the material here. The point is that Aeris was not revived. As she can, to a degree, direct the enormous power of the Lifestream allows for her to do certain things that even in her life would have been impossible.

Also note that she does not "throw [C]loud through" Bahamut TREMOR's energy flare. Aeris' apparition only appears once Cloud had begun travelling through the energy; there, the cut over his eye (which would seem to suggest withstanding the energy was difficult) was healed and Cloud moved to Bahamut relatively unimpeded. Given that Aeris acts with the very life and energy of the Planet, it doesn't seem all that ridiculous that Aeris' (read: the Lifestream's) abilities were able to accomplish this.

Also of note, as previously stated, is that Cloud was never resurrected or resuscitated in any way. If such was the case, Aeris herself could have returned. Cloud might have been near death, but his recovery was mere physical recovery--in the sense that he was injured, and was made to be healthy.




Just because you claim the fighting is derivative of wuxia does not mean that FFVII is bound by "chi" and the like. Extraordinary ability (that ability far beyond normal human limitations) is a result of Spirit Energy--the supernatural--
I officially declare this discussion between you and myself over until you at lest go do a google search on "Chi". You dont realize it, but in that sentence you actually ended up contradicting yourself quite substantially. I refuse to engage in any sort of discussion with someone who unknowingly contradicts himself this excessively in a sentence. Its rather unfair of myself to do so I believe. Though I am going to email that quote to those in my tai chi chuan class, I think they will find it rather amusing.

Dictionary.com has the following definition of "chi" (as pertains to this discussion):


The vital force believed in Taoism and other Chinese thought to be inherent in all things. The unimpeded circulation of chi and a balance of its negative and positive forms in the body are held to be essential to good health in traditional Chinese medicine.

You'll note that chi is held to be a force inherent to "Taoism and other Chinese thought." As noted, this is irrelevant to Advent Children, a world where all spirituality rests on the inherent characteristics of Spirit Energy and the Lifestream. While there are certain conceptual similarities in the notions, you fail to recognize that what's important is how this notion (the Lifestream) is manifested. As I stated, it's ridiculous for you to suggest that Yuffie can perform "chi blasts," because a.) the power of the Lifestream does not manifest in such a way, and b.) any ninja on Gaia would not have to submit to any fantastical ninja abilities as based on the cultural views of our world.

In short, one cannot impose views of our world that pertain to the supernatural on the supernatural aspects of a seperate mythology. Please read more carefully.





Personally, its not the emulation I mind, its the fact that its so half assed. you cant just take bits and pieces, blatantly emulate a genre, and then decide at certain plot points your not going to pay attention anymore.

Because their are some superficial artistic similarities to wuxia does not mean that Advent Children is bound by the exact same formula. In short, you can emulate a genre and diverge from it, so long as the movie isn't dependent upon the parameters of the genre. Advent Children isn't subject to wuxia stereotypes. As long as their is a reason for preternatural strength and speed, AC can resemble anything it likes without being held subject to genre formulas.


The problem with barrett and cid, or at least the problem I have with them getting higher then cloud did is that in no storytelling context dealt with in game, in the movie, or applicable by the genre's square was emulating or including (such as the refferrences to norse mythologies) are these characters capable of getting that high on their own physical or spiritual exertions. I can understand everyone else doing so due to storytelling concepts that have been mentioned in the past, but these two the storyline just doesnt allow you to understand that they have the ability to do so. And no, the whole level 99 thing doesnt count as a storytelling concept. A gameplay concept yes, and if this was still a game story I wouldnt have a problem with this.

Please read what I wrote in my previous post. Also, you're again trying to impose standards on a completely independent mythology.


Easy, how bout having those two perform some sort of distracting pattern, use their abilities in different ways to combat bahamut or perhaps giving reno and rude a hand in fighting the seph twins. When I originally read about the design of the three new villains, I assumed the battle would be Vincent, barrett, and Red XIII vs gunblade wielding dude, since these three have abilities more well suited to combat a quick, distance attack oriented combatant, and Tifa, Yuffie, and Cid would fight Loz since these three are the more physical oriented combatants. while cloud fought against Kadaj. This sticks with the whole, cloud is most powerful formula the game at least wants you to believe. of course all our hero's would win, but be wounded in some way leading to a ultimate showdown with sephiroth in which there would a be a dramatic, against all odds battle where teamwork, sacrifice, and blood would be the order of the day. But would still fail against sephs awesome might resulting in some sort of miricle (aerieth rejuvenating the party somehow perhaps) that would result in their triumph, but not before seph got his licks in and made his pressence felt.

the model Ive described isnt anything ive thought up really, its a model that cinema and comics has been using for years

FFVII was intended specifically to defy these overused conventions. Here's something that Tetsuya Nomura and Yoshinori Kitase did say (since everyone seems interested in hearing from the creators of FFVII universe) concerning FFVII...

Nomura begins by examining the decision regarding Aeris' death.


Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?

Kitase follows by questioning the epic sacrifice formula.


In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had knowni this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood.

Kitase then speaks regarding the decision to defy convention, as well as confirms the fact that Aeris was not meant to be revived (meaning such a reading of AC is incorrect).


The world was expecting us to bring her back to life, as this is the classic convention. But we did not. We had decided this from the beginning. There was a lot of reaction from Japanese users. Some of them were very sad about it, while others were angry. We even received a lengthy petition addressed to our scenario writer asking for Aerith's revival. But there are many meanings in Aerith's death and that could never happen.

While these statements pertain directly to Aeris' death, the reality here was that the two figures most instrumental to the Compilation of FFVII both express dismay with the trite notions repeatedly perpetuated in popular media. You assumed that such a set-up (Vincent, Barret, and Red--or rather Yuffie; I'm assuming that was a typo, and Tifa, Cid, and Yuffie (Red)) would take place, because you place stock in that classic formula. I do not mean to denigrate said formula, but it's absurd to fault a movie for not following an established pattern. The fights were all logical within their own context, and, moreover, more accurately submitted to the themes embodied in the original FFVII.


The film wanted us to believe that the seph clones were ultra powerful, this model would have lead us to see it.

The SHM were ultra-powerful; Loz was able to easily defeat Tifa, Loz and Yazoo didn't even need to take the Turks seriously, and both were implied to be nowhere near as powerful as Kadaj.


The film wants us to believe that sephiroth is nigh a god, the miracle (which could take any form the writers choose) would prove that seph could and did wipe the floor with our hero's, and it required a miracle for them to come out on top.

Here, the usual formula breaks down. Sloppy storytelling is just as easily embodied in random Deus ex Machina. This, then, would seem to apply to the idea of the "perennial clich&#233;." There are certainly reasonable objections to the formula that was used--making Cloud extraordinarily powerful--but also note that your formula at least received the "mouth service" of having Cloud seemingly defeated before Sephiroth's final, fateful remark. That theme was the focus of the ending of the original trailer, and Cloud's reply, "everything is important to me," effectively sums up many of the themes of the movie and the FFVII universe. Finishing Seph off with Omnislash Version 5 also recalls the ending to FFVII. Really, especially given that fanservice was the primary intent of AC, this wasn't a horrible idea.

I initially replied to the other thread in an attempt to help clarify what happened in AC. You've chosen to ignore what's been explained, and while that's up to you, please realize why people are arguing with you. Your opinions are merely that: opinions.

SoulTaker*
12-15-2005, 07:35 PM
The problem you seem to have with the movie is that you say that it copies off many Genre's, well OF COURSE, everyone copies off everyone else, bullettime has been copied repeatedly, Wuxia has been used in Crouching Tiger,Hero,Flying Daggers and many others, they even got a term for it in Hollywood, its called "wirefu", Chi has been used in most every anime I can think of, Its a FANTASY world, and whatever they can do is based on what the writers think up, and since it is a fantasy world I can see why they can jump so high, they jump high and do impossible things in the game, why not the movie, training in martial arts doesnt make you jump higher in real life, most martial arts in real life is just for show and wouldnt work in a real fight. Referring to the X-men they dont explain their powers the best either, uhhh, Ice man freezes the moisture in the air so he can freeze things, Spider man got bit by a "radioactive" spider, what!? in real life this cant happen, Peter Parker would just get a real nasty rash,its fantasy, I feel bad for you if you expected something more from this movie, I expected the movie to be exactly what it was, action,action and more action, a little story here and their, what do you expect from an Arnold movie? Do you expect and oscar winning performance? I showed this movie to my friends and they loved it, they dont like final fantasy, and they still think of anime as cartoons and it won them over, this is exactly what Final Fantasy need to keep doing, and if the ending wasnt to your liking Im sorry, but we arent the creators or writers and we dont get the say in how the story progresses, did you really think Sephiroth would beat Cloud? He couldnt even beat normal Cloud, not to mention a Bio-Engineered Cloud with emotional problems, it wasnt the greatest, but it wasnt spirits within either.

Ishin Ookami
12-16-2005, 06:31 AM
[!]
Dictionary.com has the following definition of "chi" (as pertains to this discussion):



You'll note that chi is held to be a force inherent to "Taoism and other Chinese thought." As noted, this is irrelevant to Advent Children, a world where all spirituality rests on the inherent characteristics of Spirit Energy and the Lifestream. While there are certain conceptual similarities in the notions, you fail to recognize that what's important is how this notion (the Lifestream) is manifested. As I stated, it's ridiculous for you to suggest that Yuffie can perform "chi blasts," because a.) the power of the Lifestream does not manifest in such a way, and b.) any ninja on Gaia would not have to submit to any fantastical ninja abilities as based on the cultural views of our world.

In short, one cannot impose views of our world that pertain to the supernatural on the supernatural aspects of a seperate mythology. Please read more carefully.


Amazing, I send this guy to a search on chi, and he ends up thinking he's chen zhang dong after one google search. What a magnificently tender ego you have, to become so inflated in one night. If you bothered to read past that initial paragraph, you would have gathered that "chi" is something used in anime, japanese films, manga, as well as in chinese cinema and literature. Its roots began in Chinese history, religion, and mythology, but are not limited to that. Note, JAPANESE is included there, and refresh my memory oh illustrious tai chi master, where was Advent Children made?




Because their are some superficial artistic similarities to wuxia does not mean that Advent Children is bound by the exact same formula. In short, you can emulate a genre and diverge from it, so long as the movie isn't dependent upon the parameters of the genre. Advent Children isn't subject to wuxia stereotypes. As long as their is a reason for preternatural strength and speed, AC can resemble anything it likes without being held subject to genre formulas.

Oh yes, and the reasoning behind the superhuman feats is that they are all level 99, sure. makes perfect storytelling sense. :rolleyes2


Originally Posted by Tetsuya Nomura:
Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?

I consider it amazing that Nomura has the Gall to speak of cliche's in a disparaging manner. I consider his direction, story lines, and character designs to be the definition of hackneyed and derivative. This is a man that has made his living upon the hunger for convention and previously established cliche's.


Originally Posted by Yoshinori Kitase:
In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had knowni this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood.

Aerith's death was the best thing about FFVII, but I felt that there were better video game deaths that just had a better overall impact. The murder of terra's mother, a woman who was dying anyway, who had her throat slit just to ensure she would die and that her baby would never know love sends shivers down my spine every time I think of it. It's just such a Effed up act, committed by a man who obviously lacks even a basic amount of moral backbone. In Phantasy Star VI, the death of Alys was played in a similar way, but I felt it had more significance. Chaz is disillusioned and pondering his direction now that his mentor is gone. Rika has for the first time learned about friendship, and just days later learned what it was like to lose a friend. Han lost his former lover, and now must take on a leadership role without eclipsing chaz as he must mature and grow further. They all dealt with it differently towards the very end. In FFVII, she's dead. Boss fight, and its sad speech, cutscene, change the disk, and game on. None of your characters were really any different. The ones I mentioned were deaths that made you feel something, think of something. Aerieths death was definitely the best produced video game death ever, but It just lacked alot of the intended soul. Thats what happens when you focus on production values over writing and story.


Originally Posted by Yoshinori Kitase:
The world was expecting us to bring her back to life, as this is the classic convention. But we did not. We had decided this from the beginning. There was a lot of reaction from Japanese users. Some of them were very sad about it, while others were angry. We even received a lengthy petition addressed to our scenario writer asking for Aerith's revival. But there are many meanings in Aerith's death and that could never happen.

Hey genius, we were also expecting you to develop more characters besides Tifa and cloud. These two idiots have already had their moments in the sun. Why is it Aerith has more lines of dialogue and affects the plot (such as it is) in AC more then yuffie, Barrett, Cid, RedXIII, vincent, or even the turks or shinra? If you didnt mean to bring her back, she would just get talked about and thats it. Instead she's curing global epidemics, counseling idiots who overcompensate inadequacies with bikes, swords, and leather; She stamps return to sender on dead bodies and ships em off through the lifestream to be resurrected, lends a helping hand (literally) during battles with mythical beasts, and tends to sick children. For crying out loud and now your trying to tell us that you didnt want to revive her? Yah right, Pull the other one Kitase-san, its Xmas so its got bells on it right now. Go on do it.



I do not mean to denigrate said formula, but it's absurd to fault a movie for not following an established pattern. The fights were all logical within their own context, and, moreover, more accurately submitted to the themes embodied in the original FFVII.

Logical and FFVII the game and film, are words that should never get used in the same sentence. It would have been better for AC from a storytelling perspective if it HAD relied on that tried and true storytelling model. The reason it gets used so often even today, is that it allows for character development, intense and dramatic action scenes, its versatile in the sense that you can develop characters or direct the action into several directions, and still end up with a happy ending and a quality storyline. You just need to make sure that the writing and research along the way all passes muster. instead FFVII decided that the fight scenes would make absolutely no sense from a directional standpoint, that story progression would rely and fanboy logic rather then plot coherency. Its not hard to see that I admire vision and creativity, just make sure there is a bit of logic to the proceedings please and thank you. Nomura and Kitase failed to provide that.


The SHM were ultra-powerful; Loz was able to easily defeat Tifa,

Yay, you beat up on a girl who obviously had incredible inferior abilities to your own. you da man. C'mon! in the model that X-men has been using since Clairemont was a new name, loz would have fought three characters, using teamwork, smarts, and power simultaneously and still would have shown himself to be even more powerful. in that sort of model its cunning and teamwork that wins the day. He'd still look powerful, just not smart. Which, lets be honest, HE WASNT! Instead the film just has him fighting cloud the rest of the film. And despite what you may think, the turks didnt do too badly as THEY did fight with cunning and teamwork, and did get the upperhand for a moment. Too bad they just decided to pat themselves on the back instead of pressing the advantage. I dont care that they didnt use the model that I had imagined, I care that they didnt use ANY storytelling.


Here, the usual formula breaks down. Sloppy storytelling is just as easily embodied in random Deus ex Machina. This, then, would seem to apply to the idea of the "perennial clich&#233;." There are certainly reasonable objections to the formula that was used--making Cloud extraordinarily powerful--but also note that your formula at least received the "mouth service" of having Cloud seemingly defeated before Sephiroth's final, fateful remark. That theme was the focus of the ending of the original trailer, and Cloud's reply, "everything is important to me," effectively sums up many of the themes of the movie and the FFVII universe. Finishing Seph off with Omnislash Version 5 also recalls the ending to FFVII. Really, especially given that fanservice was the primary intent of AC, this wasn't a horrible idea.

So, lemme get this straight. You think "Nani" and omnislash Version 10.084 works better then teamwork, development of ALL the characters, and and epic battle with blood, sacrifice, and intensity? :mad: Whatever.


Do you expect and oscar winning performance? I showed this movie to my friends and they loved it, they dont like final fantasy, and they still think of anime as cartoons and it won them over, this is exactly what Final Fantasy need to keep doing, and if the ending wasnt to your liking Im sorry, but we arent the creators or writers and we dont get the say in how the story progresses, did you really think Sephiroth would beat Cloud? He couldn't even beat normal Cloud, not to mention a Bio-Engineered Cloud with emotional problems, it wasnt the greatest, but it wasnt spirits within either.

I dont expect an oscar winning performance, but I do expect the creators to give a crap about the film they are making. Army of darkness (sam Rami, starring bruce campbell) aint exactly masterpiece theatre, but its got some of the best one liners in history, a plot that can actually carry itself, and some good direction and elements of Satire (clateau, Barata, Nicteau anyone?). Sam and Bruce actually cared about the film they were making, and gave it their all, and its one of my favorites. AC didnt give a crap about the story, OR the action scenes seeing as how both are just flat out derivative, half assed, and bland. If you'd like I can recommend some kung fu films that make AC look like a thumb war waged by quadraplegics.

Oh, and by the by, I LIKED Spirits Within :cool:[/!]

You will cease making personal attacks immediately, or you will be banned.

~Void

Neco Arc
12-16-2005, 09:56 AM
ITS JUST A smurfING MOVIE GET OVER IT!!!!



What he said...

ThroneofDravaris
12-16-2005, 03:51 PM
I found this article rather interesting in relation to the inspiration for the battle scenes in Advent Children. Actually, it’s a pretty good interview all round really…

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdegm/is_200510/ai_n14906619

For those that can’t be bothered reading all of it, this is the key section:


EGM: The film’s fight scenes seem to defy established medium traditions; they are both more realistic and visceral than anime, yet with a supernatural flair beyond Hong Kong–cinema wirework. What do you cite as inspirations?
TN: It’s funny, I didn’t originally approach Advent Children from an action standpoint: It was all about the dramatic aspects of the story. The script came first and offered no real direction for the fight scenes. And I couldn’t very well assault the viewers with nonstop scenes of gripping drama; it would simply be too tiring for the viewers. So I broke up the scenario, inserting action sequences throughout the film in a vaguely abstract way.
Back to your question about my inspirations for the fight scenes. Well, I think the unique look might just be a result of a bunch of game creators coming together to make a film...games are violent, and we’re used to creating violence. I can’t really point out any single works that influenced the creation of AC. Everything in my life inspires me.
So Ishin Ookami, it’s entirely possible that the action sequences in the movie were partially inspired by ‘WUXIA’. However, it has been implied that the movie takes inspiration from many different genres, not just ‘Hong Kong flicks’ and anime. Thus it is nigh on ridiculous to claim that the battles in Advent Children should be constrained by physical concepts in any particular genre. The same goes for the formula used within the battles. You may not like the whole ‘Sephiroth vs Cloud’ battle in the end, but then there are a whole load of people who do. IMO, the idea you put forward for the ‘perfect Sephiroth battle’ is absolute s@#$. Ultimately, no matter what they did with the final battle there would be people who hated it. So basically they went with a fight which was reminiscent to the game, ie the one on one battle at the very end of Final Fantasy VII. Not everyone may like it, but at least it allows the movie to stay true to its origins. The Giga Flare scene which’ made you gag’ pays homage to another scene in the final FMV in FFVII. These scene that seem rather lame are all in there for a reason: Fan Service.

In the end, if you don’t like FFVII, you probably won’t like Advent Children. As everyone has said, this movie is based on pleasing the fans. It’s little wonder that someone who hates Cloud is pissed when he takes down almost all of the antagonists, but someone who likes him is probably indifferent to this or may even enjoy it. FFVII was always about three characters: Cloud, Aerith and Sephiroth/Jenova. Most of the other characters could be removed from the story and it wouldn’t have made a difference. Even Tifa was only added to the story because Tetsuya Nomura wanted another female character in the cast. Just like FFVII, Advent children is a story about Cloud, Aerith and Sephiroth/Jenova. The only difference is that this time, Sephiroth appears in the form of Kadaj for the majority of the feature, and Jenova appears in the form of Geostigma (yeah, I know that’s technically incorrect, but whatever…). Advent Children, of course is only a fraction of the length of FFVII, thus in order to develop Cloud, Aerith and Sephiroth/Jenova/Kadaj, all of the other characters had to be left out of the picture. The more popular characters such as Tifa, The Turks (including Rufus) and Vincent still get half decent look ins, but ultimately it would distract from the story to give them any more time then was already allowed.

FFVII is a movie about Cloud’s final confrontation with his memories of Aerith and the ‘excellent Soldier Sephiroth’. While telling its story, it also manages to continue the mythology of the game as well as display a gracious amount of fan service and fast-passed-action. If you think Cloud is an Emo git, consider Sephiroth to be an overhyped pretty boy and think Aerith is the biggest whore since Courtney Love, you’re not going to like this movie. This movie is for fans of the series only. With a title that starts with “Final Fantasy VII’ in block letters, why the hell should it make an effort appeal to people who haven’t played the game? F@#$ them.

Christmas
12-16-2005, 04:22 PM
That remind me, there is this begger sect thing in Wuxia films. And all of them know Kung Fu.....So why not a street gangster and a mechanic know kung fu too since even beggers are capable of doing so...:D

Ishin Ookami
12-16-2005, 07:13 PM
EGM: The film’s fight scenes seem to defy established medium traditions; they are both more realistic and visceral than anime, yet with a supernatural flair beyond Hong Kong–cinema wirework. What do you cite as inspirations?
TN: It’s funny, I didn’t originally approach Advent Children from an action standpoint: It was all about the dramatic aspects of the story. The script came first and offered no real direction for the fight scenes. And I couldn’t very well assault the viewers with nonstop scenes of gripping drama; it would simply be too tiring for the viewers. So I broke up the scenario, inserting action sequences throughout the film in a vaguely abstract way.
Back to your question about my inspirations for the fight scenes. Well, I think the unique look might just be a result of a bunch of game creators coming together to make a film...games are violent, and we’re used to creating violence. I can’t really point out any single works that influenced the creation of AC. Everything in my life inspires me.

I read that article back when the magazine was released, and to be blunt it was the final confirmation I needed that Nomura is off his rocker. I mean can you honestly watch the film and say that the creators DIDNT focus on action?

In the same article, Nomura states that FFVII and Cloud were different from anything that was ever done before at the time of their release, and he was very proud. Which anyone with a brain, who's seen a bit of anime in their time can honestly say thats BS. The look of FFVII and the archetype of cloud have all been done multiple times prior to FFVII. Nomura is far too full of himself and that particular article was more of a FFVII love letter then a real interview. There was no inquiring about the consequences of Sakaguchi, amano, and uematsu leaving. No inquiring about the rumors of scores of employee's defecting to other game companies. No inquiring about what happened to Chrono Break or what is square planning for its other franchises in the future. The entire vibe of the interview was pretty much "We love FFVII". Which initself isnt a bad thing, but when it gets in the way of journalistic integrety or presenting the gaming public with info, then yes its pretty nauseating. That article felt less like a journalistic interview and more like unpaid advertising for AC and FFVII.

Oh, and Ive said it before, I'll say it one last time. Its not that I dont like FFVII, its just that the game itself is overhyped by far. Add to that Nomura's and kitasae's out of control ego, and the lack of anything original in AC, and yes I have ALOT of criticism's directed towards them.


That remind me, there is this begger sect thing in Wuxia films. And all of them know Kung Fu.....So why not a street gangster and a mechanic know kung fu too since even beggers are capable of doing so...:D

Ive actually dealt with that before on this thread. Remember when I stated in crouching tiger that that guard who hung around Mu Bai and Shu Lien didnt do any flying? Doing great leaps like those you see Mu bai happens under the logic that these cobatants are trained to exercise their chi in superior fashions. Temple guards, beggers, anyone can learn fighting arts, but to do great leaps requires a incredible amount of conditioning in wuxia films. Not just anyone can it.

MaiveBT
12-18-2005, 01:56 PM
Okie.. so, some of you are saying that you want to have about an hour and a half of the movie going over a plot which we already know about?

Hey! Maybe the remaining half and hour, they can explain Cloud's backstory again!

I would say AC is a prologue to DOC, about what happened during the time between FFVII and DOC.

Christmas
12-18-2005, 02:17 PM
Is Crouching tigers hidden dragon the only Wuxia stuff you know? How about those eunuch in the palace that know formidable Kung Fu and fly around. Not to mention the Shaolin Monks in Wuxia Flims.Especially the 18 bronzemen. Those characters in the Wuxia Novel "The Return Of the Condor Heros"...etc.

And also, Barret and Cid aren't that minor of a character like those random guards that appear beside the main characters.

Lastly, can you prove that Barret and Cid aren't trained in the CHI thingy while Tifa and the others are or this CHI thingy do apply in the movie or even the game itself.

Russielloyd
12-18-2005, 04:15 PM
I would say AC is a prologue to DOC, about what happened during the time between FFVII and DOC.


What the hell you talking about? No its not, its like the final chapter in Cloud story.

Vyk
12-18-2005, 06:12 PM
I love this thread

Russielloyd
12-18-2005, 06:43 PM
cool aint it! Lets see if we can keep going till new years.....






















2007

Ishin Ookami
12-18-2005, 10:38 PM
Is Crouching tigers hidden dragon the only Wuxia stuff you know? How about those eunuch in the palace that know formidable Kung Fu and fly around. Not to mention the Shaolin Monks in Wuxia Flims.Especially the 18 bronzemen. Those characters in the Wuxia Novel "The Return Of the Condor Heros"...etc.

No, but its one of the few wuxia films besides Hero and the awful House of flying daggers that people on these boards know, thus I use it as a prime example because I doubt many people here have a intimate knowledge of Dragon Inn or the Swordsman Saga. Dragon Sword Heaven Sabre would be a good entry into true wuxia, as its a much repeated saga which deals with chi attacks, chi poisoning and curing, as well as chi blasts ect. It makes CTHD look tame in comparison. Storm Riders and The Duel are a bit more special effects heavy, with some better then average HK fare CGI representing Chi effects as well as super human blade wielding. If you've ever played Kessen II, with its rather fast and loose recreation of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms storyline, then you have a rather good idea of Wuxia when it really gets wild.

By the way, your description of other wuxia films seemed rather... rushed. have you actually seen these films/read the novels? or were you just looking for some examples and ran a google search?


And also, Barret and Cid aren't that minor of a character like those random guards that appear beside the main characters.

Lastly, can you prove that Barret and Cid aren't trained in the CHI thingy while Tifa and the others are or this CHI thingy do apply in the movie or even the game itself.

Most wuxia films/novels dont get into the characters past training as well, they are just more experienced in martial arts then others and their skills proove their advanced training. Chi manipulation in wuxia films comes from Tai Chi Chuan, The chi (spiritual energy that exists in everything ) isnt such a stretch of a concept when one considers modern science tells us the human body has its own electric field. Tai Chi Chuan teaches that true strength, form, technique, speed, and grace, comes from a relaxed yet disciplined form, when little to no effort is used. A Physical trainer can tell you that tension in the musciles restricts blood flow and increases blood pressure, slowing down speed, agility and flexability. The events that occur in Wuxia is merely a superhuman expression of the practice of the martial art known as Tai Chi Chuan (Note, the reason for this brief semi-tutorial is that I know full well that the tennants of tai chi chuan sound like rhetorical nonsense to the ignorant ear). So I have little problem imagining a martial artist, trained in combat techniques has had some training in chi, as well as a rigorously trained ninja. RedXIII is a creature of innate magical abilities, Vincent is a hanyo (half demon), cloud has been through the life stream so many times he has to fart in a bomb shelter, lest he release any radiation in public, so its not such a threat all these characters can do some superhuman abilities that resemble Wuxia's rules of chi manipulation (which is based on a real martial art mind you). But Cid and Barrett, despite their importance to the games plot, have no such abilities or training. which is why yes, I have such a problem with their being up that high because from a storytelling angle it makes no sense whatsoever. Its a example of nonsensical plot contrivance in a film that is built upon that princible while imitating Wong kar leung, yuen Wu Ping, John Woo, Wong Jing, Cory Yuen, ect.

Oh yah, and that guard that hung around with mu bai and shu lien was a bit more important to the plot then barrett and cid were. Barrett shows up, says some stuff, shoots a few times, game over. Cid pilots sierra and fights with a spear, but uses staff techniques. I cant remember the guards name in the film, but he ended up dating the daughter of that martial artist who jade fox killed, he buried jade fox, and helped Shu Lien and Mu Bai do their business. Not a big role, but he's freaking Aaragon in LOTR compared to the bit parts Cid and Barrett got fed. So we can learn from this example that The importance of the role doesnt make you A martial arts master in one night young grasshopper.

Vyk
12-19-2005, 02:56 AM
The fact still remains. The rules of Wuxia do not apply.

Ishin Ookami
12-19-2005, 12:31 PM
And the fact also still remains, that the story doesnt explain how barrett and cid could get up there. Using wuxia rules (and hey why not, they certainly used the style) explains hot the rest of the cast able to fly about and do all the crazy midair combat, which helps make the story make a little bit of sense.

ThroneofDravaris
12-19-2005, 12:47 PM
A wizard did it.

cloud20747
12-19-2005, 02:09 PM
They climbed.....and I dun really know why only Tifa, Red XIII and Yuffie are limited to these CHI thingy you talking about and personally, I dun really know these CHI thingy did apply to the movie.

Just for References, you do know some of Cid's limit break specialize on jumping.

I told you all of them are equally strong through the game events and jumping from various structures to structures is pretty possible for everyone of them.

Before Cloud appear and fight Shin Bahamut, the others were already fighting on the beams and structures. So it do explain they have ways to get that high and most probably they climbed.

Also. I dun really know why you said they jump higher than Cloud. They just merely appear at higher structures(They might have gotten into action first or start at a higher platform or jumped/climbed to that position to await Cloud.) than Cloud is and give him a hand while other jumped as to where Cloud's position is and gave him a push that's all.

It didn't really show anywhere that when two of them jumped together, Cloud jumped lower since Cloud make one straight jump while others could have jumped from platforms to platforms.


LET'S ANAYSIS.

After Cloud uses his Braver move or your so called Wuxia or CHI move whatever you think it is on Shin Bahamut, It crashes onto the ground preparing for an attack.


http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/231/1014ca.jpg

Look at his screenshot here, the group's head are looking up, so they must be in a platform pretty similar to where Shin Bahamut is.Take note that Barret isn't in the screenshot.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8446/1006lj.jpg

So Cloud make a leap and saw Barret awaiting him in a higher platform.Barret could have already on the higher platform before Cloud in the start.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/102.jpg

From this one, Cloud engaged Shin Bahamut but loses balance and started falling.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/103.jpg

Cid who appeared in the first screenshot, shows up in a lower platform than where Cloud is and give him a push. Take note that this is crucial since Cloud already wasted a lot of time this way and Shin Bahamut had already soar into the sky by now. This can apply to everyone else who will have jumped or climbed from platforms to platforms or such to a higher level than Cloud.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/104.jpg

And Red XIII leapted out and give Cloud a push.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/105.jpg

Followed by Yuffie.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/106.jpg

Take note that Vincent is already in a higher platform than Cloud is since he had enough time to get this high from Cloud's fall.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/107.jpg

And Tifa.

Aeris is irrelevant.



Didn't the game show how superhuman they are....like Cid can uses his limit break to jump high up into the air and Yuffie uses a big ball of energy against the enemies. Must they repeat all this in the movie to tell you? If you want to question it, you shouldn't question the movie but question the game instead.

Besides, all my characters are level 99 too.:D
and yet again I say Barret and Cid NEVER jumped up there

ThroneofDravaris
12-19-2005, 02:13 PM
Was it really necessary to quote ALL of that?

Ishin Ookami
12-19-2005, 02:26 PM
and yet again I say Barret and Cid NEVER jumped up there

So basically magic Video game pixies teleported them up there I take it? Hey, why not? Makes about as much sense as the rest of the film does.

Russielloyd
12-19-2005, 03:12 PM
Just because they’re in there 30’s, means they cant jump? We've seen Cid jump hights alread while fighting Buhamut and just because Barrer has a massive machine/hand on his arm, doesn make him an invalid to jumping. Its fantasy and they're strong charaters, that alone would be enough reason for them to have big leaps.

ThroneofDravaris
12-19-2005, 03:38 PM
Obviously, he fired his gun at the ground and used it to propel himself upwards.

Ishin Ookami
12-19-2005, 04:29 PM
Just because they’re in there 30’s, means they cant jump? We've seen Cid jump hights alread while fighting Buhamut and just because Barrer has a massive machine/hand on his arm, doesn make him an invalid to jumping. Its fantasy and they're strong charaters, that alone would be enough reason for them to have big leaps.

I have a sudden urge to make a "White men cant jump" joke, but I doubt the younger posters here would get it.

but in all seriousness, jumping I dont have a problem with, but jumping several stories I do have a problem with, with prior reasons.


Obviously, he fired his gun at the ground and used it to propel himself upwards.

hey, good one. how bout this one?

Lets just say they had mexican food just before the fight and used the explosive flatulance to propel themselves up there?

ThroneofDravaris
12-19-2005, 05:11 PM
Now that’s just plain ridiculous...

...

...

...

Mexico doesn’t exist on Gaia.

Vyk
12-19-2005, 07:14 PM
In the world of wuxia lore, martial artists train to be able to attain that feat. In the world of Final Fantasy (or just plain video game) lore, it's all about fighting battles. You don't have to necissarily think of it in terms of levels. But either way, the more battles you fight, the more powerful you get and more abilities you attain. I'm going to cite DBZ as an example of this, for anime reference. Rarely do the characters actually train to highten their martial arts abilities. What they do is put a lot of physical stress on their body. Doing bogus kicks and punches in 10x Gravity isn't going to make your reflexes any better in a fight. But that's how they get "more powerful". Its the way reality works in DBZ. In FF, the same thing is done, but the physical stress is attained through countless battles that we aren't privy to in the movie (it's all in the game). In either case, there is no mental discipline, yet they attain super human abilities. So they can do moves that wuxia does, but they don't get there the way wuxia does

Rengori
12-19-2005, 11:30 PM
I strongly agree with this, due to the movies lack of development of its characters mainly. This is mostly on purpose as the producers of the movie said they wouldnt spend time on the character devolpment. They just believe everyone has played FFVII and they wouldnt waste time on the characters. If they had, the movie I believe would have been 1.5 hours longer.
After talking to all the people in 8th grader who want to see AC, 15 of the 17 answered this way:
Ren: So, you want to see Advent Children?
Idiot: Yup.
R: have you beaten it?
I: No...
R: How far are you then?
I: Oh, I haven't played it, I just want to see the movie.
:mad2:
IDIOTS, GOD!

Vyk
12-20-2005, 12:55 AM
How in the world do they even know of it then? I thought all gamers played FF7 ^_^ (Kidding)

Rengori
12-20-2005, 01:38 AM
They saw a commercial or fanart or KH or something. But they're idiots none the less.

fantasyjunkie
12-20-2005, 04:56 AM
The darn movie is $25 to $30. no movie is worth that much, so I'll just have to wait for a used copy at EB and use my used card discount plus another 20% for working at Barnes and Noble :)

cloud20747
12-20-2005, 05:13 AM
So basically magic Video game pixies teleported them up there I take it? Hey, why not? Makes about as much sense as the rest of the film does.
My bad I meant say he didn't jump to help Cloud get to bahamut. Barret does jump once to get away from a blast from bahamut but only goes a few feet. You are right Barret Shouldn't jump as high as everyone else and in this movie he doesn't

SoulTaker*
12-20-2005, 05:29 AM
Ishin I dont care what you say about wuxai, wutai or wu tang or whatever it is you watch pull off the things they did in this movie, their usually set in some ancient period, this movie was set in the modern time frame, and wuxia movies are more artistic, this movie was just straight in your face kickass action, I didnt see Le bie or whatever in crouching tiger chuck a motorcycle at somebody using his legs while smashing his fist into the ground, if your a fan of non-stop ORIGINAL action you'll like this movie, If you like sappy chinese martial art movies you'll probably STILL like this movie, I dont know what ishins problem is, tell the Chinese to look out for the Mongols, all that wuxia training and its still know help against a horse and a bow.

ThroneofDravaris
12-20-2005, 06:02 AM
The darn movie is $25 to $30. no movie is worth that much, so I'll just have to wait for a used copy at EB and use my used card discount plus another 20% for working at Barnes and Noble :)
:eek: You rebel you.

Ishin Ookami
12-20-2005, 02:35 PM
In the world of wuxia lore, martial artists train to be able to attain that feat. In the world of Final Fantasy (or just plain video game) lore, it's all about fighting battles. You don't have to necissarily think of it in terms of levels. But either way, the more battles you fight, the more powerful you get and more abilities you attain. I'm going to cite DBZ as an example of this, for anime reference. Rarely do the characters actually train to highten their martial arts abilities. What they do is put a lot of physical stress on their body. Doing bogus kicks and punches in 10x Gravity isn't going to make your reflexes any better in a fight. But that's how they get "more powerful". Its the way reality works in DBZ. In FF, the same thing is done, but the physical stress is attained through countless battles that we aren't privy to in the movie (it's all in the game). In either case, there is no mental discipline, yet they attain super human abilities. So they can do moves that wuxia does, but they don't get there the way wuxia does

I had issues with just about everything you wrote, but for the sake of brevity, I'll just sum it up with this quote.



Doing bogus kicks and punches in 10x Gravity isn't going to make your reflexes any better in a fight. But that's how they get "more powerful". Its the way reality works in DBZ.

Do me a favor, go to any store that sells exercise gear, and check out equipment like heavy hands, leg weights, arm weights, weighted clothing, ect. What the heck do you think this stuff is for? by strapping extra weights to your body your causing regular acts such as common movements to suddenly put strain on your muscles, and a propor workout with weighted clothing/equipment will actually result in yes, quicker reflexes, because your body will now be doing even mundaine acts such as keeping balance with greater difficulty, and your muscles will have to focus beyond that which they are used too. When practice my roundhouse kicks I do so with leg weights, I started with five extra pounds and have worked my way up to strapping 30 lbs to my legs now, and let me tell you in ten minutes Im dripping sweat from the exertions.

as for your comparing martial arts training to video games, ummm, you do realize I do practice martial arts. and there is a reason its considered an "ART". There are some practices that focus solely on combat, which is why they are referred to as combat arts. Martial arts refer to training the spirit, as well as the body. And if one is not trained in a particular area then one is typicaly unfit for using the techniques of that art. I wouldnt expect a Muay Thai fighter to be using grappling techniques, nor would I expect a Jiu jitsu practitioner to perform aerial roundhouse kicks. In the same way I wouldnt expect a mechannic and cyborg street thug to know anything about chi use.


Ishin I dont care what you say about wuxai, wutai or wu tang or whatever it is you watch pull off the things they did in this movie, their usually set in some ancient period, this movie was set in the modern time frame, and wuxia movies are more artistic, this movie was just straight in your face kickass action, I didnt see Le bie or whatever in crouching tiger chuck a motorcycle at somebody using his legs while smashing his fist into the ground, if your a fan of non-stop ORIGINAL action you'll like this movie, If you like sappy chinese martial art movies you'll probably STILL like this movie, I dont know what ishins problem is, tell the Chinese to look out for the Mongols, all that wuxia training and its still know help against a horse and a bow.

actually, wuxia films have been known to take place in the modern era, like The Myth for example. and in anime, throwing motorcycles is somewhat cliche. Tetsuo in Akira rarely threw anything smaller then an automobile, In X whole building shatter during one on one combat, Macross Plus and Zero all have giant transforming mecha tearing /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif up left, right, and centre in particularly badass fashion. And John Woo has been doing those sort of chase/combat scenes since time immemorial. Hard Boiled anyone?

ThroneofDravaris
12-20-2005, 03:01 PM
You know, considering that two of Cid’s limit breaks are ‘Boost Jump’ and ‘Hyper Jump’, something tells me jumping in general isn’t that much of a problem to him…

In addition, after watching the footage several times, I think it is entirely possible that Barret hasn’t actually moved from where he was before Bahamut started to ascend above the ruins. It would seem that Cloud fell to a lower platform after he knocked Bahamut down for the first time, thus Barret was already higher than him when Cloud jumps up for round two.

Yep.

*Goes back to watching Kill Bill*

Russielloyd
12-21-2005, 08:59 PM
People gotta agree tough, the music for the movie is great. The music fits perfectly with the scenerio, example being being Cloud going up to stop Buhamut is perfect heroic music that weve come to expect from Final Fantasy.

Tifa's Real Lover(really
12-21-2005, 10:05 PM
yea made me go to a tear

SummonerYuna
12-22-2005, 12:54 AM
It was good, but could have been better...

Ishin Ookami
12-22-2005, 05:16 AM
People gotta agree tough, the music for the movie is great. The music fits perfectly with the scenerio, example being being Cloud going up to stop Buhamut is perfect heroic music that weve come to expect from Final Fantasy.

Actually, Id like to see an interview with uematsu. alot of the music was just remixes, I kinda got the impression that uematsu was under strict request to do so, or just didnt care as the original pieces wern't really up to his usual standards. I mean its been a while, four years I think since his last totally original soundtrack, but the music in FFX sounded alot more emotionally touching and appropriate then alot of the muzak in this film.

Winter Nights
12-22-2005, 05:52 AM
All the piano tracks were just pulled off the FF7 Piano Collections. They didn't even bother to remix or remake them.

ThroneofDravaris
12-22-2005, 06:15 AM
The only track I was annoyed about on the AC soundtrack was One Winged Angel. I’m SO pissed that they changed the lyrics. Other than that, it was pretty good.

Russielloyd
12-22-2005, 01:42 PM
Well yeah, some stuff was bound to be from the game still doesnt stop the fact it was good. There was some new stuff aswell though.

Uematsu is a great pianist, the new stuff he did do on the movie was great aswell but i think the best music hes done i think was FFIX.

[:..x.ffd.lil.one.x..:]
12-22-2005, 03:52 PM
I thought it was sick!! Although there was not much lovey-dovey romantic stuff in it. The flashbacks confused me at first though!! The only time when the music was crappy was when the tonk bad guy's phone went off and played the music when you win in the game. I thought that was abit idiotic.

ThroneofDravaris
12-22-2005, 03:55 PM
You’re signature appears to be f@#$ing with the forum…

And that ring tone was obviously the best part of the movie.

[:..x.ffd.lil.one.x..:]
12-22-2005, 04:06 PM
What.. ?? :confused: That ringtone was so annoying!!:eep:

Tifa's Real Lover(really
12-22-2005, 04:13 PM
:eek:

ThroneofDravaris
12-22-2005, 05:03 PM
']What.. ?? :confused: That ringtone was so annoying!!:eep:
It’s funny because it’s ironic.

Odaisé Gaelach
12-22-2005, 11:49 PM
Just be grateful that it wasn't the Crazy Frog...

ThroneofDravaris
12-23-2005, 01:00 AM
You know I swear I heard a Crazy Frog Christmas Mix a few days ago.

F@#$ing bastards…

Vyk
12-23-2005, 05:20 AM
You misunderstood me. I realize its going to make you stronger, but it's not going to make you react faster. Strength has nothing to do with reflex.

ThroneofDravaris
12-23-2005, 05:51 AM
That was on the previous page. No one knows what the hell you're talking about...

Russielloyd
12-23-2005, 05:55 AM
Get with the times Vyk XD, were talking about the music now! :D

Neco Arc
12-23-2005, 10:51 AM
']That ringtone was so annoying!!:eep:

My Eyes!!!!!

Ishin Ookami
12-23-2005, 04:15 PM
You misunderstood me. I realize its going to make you stronger, but it's not going to make you react faster. Strength has nothing to do with reflex.

Actually what you said is somewhat a contradiction as strength comes from speed. A large fighter that is around 250+, no matter how much of his body is muscle, will not be able to hit as hard as a person of toned and lean muscle mass despite the lesser size and amount of muscle. a well toned fighter can move much faster, and through that speed use momentum, and agility to transfer strength. Strength itself comes from size, but for it to travel it requires speed, without enough momentum and speed to transfer that strength, it doesnt matter how much muscle mass you have, that mass is useless if you cant apply it.

Using barbells and other wieghts to do bench presses, curls, shoulder presses, ect has the impact of applying muscle mass from the outside to the body. wearing weighted clothing or strapping weights to the body and doing common movments applies a much more centered resistance. The musicle if facing tension from within at having to move in all directions rather then just having the weight focused in one point.

So now, imagine having your body weigh more then it usually does, and yet being able to master moving at your regular speed despite the increased weight. Remove the weights, and you will find you can move with greater quickness because your muscles have become more toned and accustomed to moving with more resistance. That is the value of training with weighted equipment and clothing, it increases muscle tone, instead of muscle mass and thus increases your speed and allows you to become much more powerful.

Vyk
12-23-2005, 10:21 PM
I see... off topic: I'm gonna try that :D

Christmas
12-24-2005, 09:11 AM
The AC Version of J-E-N-O-V-A is nice.

DJZen
12-26-2005, 04:22 AM
I loved Advent Children. The plot was stupid of course, but who cares? The fight scenes were so damn well done that it doesn't matter. In fact, the plot was offensively stupid, but seriously, it's a movie based on FFVII. If you were expecting a great story you need to re-play FFVII and PAY ATTENTION this time.

Setzer Gabianni
12-28-2005, 03:59 PM
So you have to like a movie who's plot is incredibly /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif and just enjoy the fight scenes?

This should never have been created, but because of certain posts on here and on other forums, my liking for this movie has gone down the pan because of some half assed people who cannot say anything other then: the fights were cool.

All great movies need a plot. /rant

SoulTaker*
12-28-2005, 05:22 PM
Sometimes to much plot can be a bad thing, take the last 2 matrix movies, and take VII for instance, you could say the plot for that was too much for people, if the plot gets to thick then people stop paying attention, most people still dont understand VII, in which they thought Advent would explain it.

Advent plot wise is nestled somewhere between Gone with the Wind and Kickboxer, but I liked this movie better than both of those for some reason, I guess im an action nut, and Im fine with that.

Ishin Ookami
12-29-2005, 05:12 AM
Sometimes to much plot can be a bad thing, take the last 2 matrix movies, and take VII for instance, you could say the plot for that was too much for people, if the plot gets to thick then people stop paying attention, most people still dont understand VII, in which they thought Advent would explain it.

Advent plot wise is nestled somewhere between Gone with the Wind and Kickboxer, but I liked this movie better than both of those for some reason, I guess im an action nut, and Im fine with that.

Problem with the last matrix films wasnt too much plot, it was just that the story was so half assed. Neo being held prisoner in Revolutions was a interesting concept that showed that he wasnt as all powerful as we all thought, but the resolution was half assed as hell. In the original script there was a sequence where the Trainman tries to kill neo, morpheus, and trinity as they are trying to make their escape. But it was cut for unknown reasons. Also take into consideration there was so little closure to the whole story, and at three movies you'd expect a bit more other than "the war is over, for now".


And if your an action nut, go check out lovehkfilm.com for some film reccommendations that make AC look like a drivers ed film. Hard Boiled espescially makes AC look incredibly lame and redundant for both plot, and action.

sephiroth the dark angel
01-24-2006, 04:44 PM
i liked the moves they used on matrix tough and as you said soultaker too much plot can be bad nut a movie like ff7 is suppose to have both fight scenes and plotnot just a whole load of fight scenes and bit of plot do u get what i mean?

~SapphireStar~
01-24-2006, 09:13 PM
I thought it was worth the wait. I first seen a trailer 2 summers ago and I fell in love. It was only a 30 second trailer, then I started collecting any info and trailers I could grab, just to satisfy my lust for it. And I love it. Its sitting beside me right now on my desk and I worship it so much. The animation, the OST, the voice acting, the character design was beyond stunning. Far enough the storyline is meh, but you do follow it, but people mainly focus on the action more then the actual story itself. IMO, better then Spirits Within which was a waste of my time and money.

Lost Number
01-24-2006, 09:21 PM
I hope it will be, I just to finish the repairs on the player.

lone_berserker
01-31-2006, 02:36 AM
AC is a CG masterpiece end of story. (in my opinion XD)

Ishin Ookami
01-31-2006, 03:38 AM
AC is a CG masterpiece end of story. (in my opinion XD)

Your entitled to your opinion, but can you actually explain WHY you felt it was a masterpiece? To me a masterpiece is a film ANYONE can enjoy. Ive never seen ANYONE watch say, Seven Samurai, or Spirited Away and not be entertained. A masterpiece is a film which really has no discernable flaw. A film which is perfectly written, scripted, filmed, directed, and acted from first reel to finish. Ive gone on at great length in this thread (and others) as too why Advent is hardly a decent film, much less a masterpiece.

Shadow The Red XIII Thing
01-31-2006, 03:44 AM
Um Ishin is your lifes goal to piss everyone off. If so good job. And Vyk you are contradicting yourself because reflex and strength are the same.
FF7 Advent Children was a good ACTION
movie.
And stop calling Barret a street thug. You are making me think your rascist. I hope your'e not.
NUFF SAID:eep:

Christmas
01-31-2006, 03:48 AM
Is this still about jumping that far exceed one limit or endless amount of hatred on a specific movie? :confused:

PS: I think my custom title is inspired by this thread.

The Devourer Of Worlds
01-31-2006, 07:06 AM
Um Ishin is your lifes goal to piss everyone off. If so good job.
*cough* (http://forums.eyesonff.com/showpost.php?p=1513114&postcount=58)

But yeah, some of that jump crap was bordering on obsessive. Everyone knows how stupid that sequence was, but it doesn’t stop it from looking cool.

Anyway, I didn’t mind Advent Children. Doesn’t really add much to the Mythology of FFVII, but it’s sure fun seeing all the FFVII characters fight without the constraints of the tedious ATB system. You just knew that Tifa’s fight with Loz was going to be pure style when you saw the way she slowly slipped those leather gloves on…

Ishin Ookami
01-31-2006, 10:10 AM
Um Ishin is your lifes goal to piss everyone off. If so good job.

Not so much a life goal, as a pastime I dabble in from time to time. :D


And Vyk you are contradicting yourself because reflex and strength are the same.

Ummmm, no. Reflexes are how quickly the body can move and react when called upon, strength... is based on several factors. they are related in some ways, but are seperate things.


FF7 Advent Children was a good ACTION
movie.

Good action movie? redundant and barely adequette would be my call. A "good" action movie would be Face off. "Great" would be hard boiled. Advent children barely ranks alongside mission impossible 2 as far as im concerned.


And stop calling Barret a street thug. You are making me think your rascist. I hope your'e not.
NUFF SAID:eep:

In the game he ran a street gang aiming to be a terrorist organization outside of a bar and spoke like he was aiming to be drafted into the G-unit any day now. What would you disignate his profession as if not thug wannabe with a heart of gold?

~SapphireStar~
01-31-2006, 12:02 PM
Whatever happened to IMO here. Love that about Shadow The Red XIII Thing, he has to force his opinion down others throats. Simply ignore.

Shadow The Red XIII Thing
02-01-2006, 03:48 PM
Whatever happened to IMO here. Love that about Shadow The Red XIII Thing, he has to force his opinion down others throats. Simply ignore.
Yup thats me shove it down your throat. Wait. Come on pay attention. Where is my attention. I live off negative attention. Noo! *withers away from lack of attention*:cry:

The Devourer Of Worlds
02-01-2006, 09:10 PM
...

Humour isn't your forte, is it?

JackNapier
02-02-2006, 03:42 AM
Well it sure was a hella of alot better than the spirits within......god damn thing doesn't even deserve capital letters.

Shadow The Red XIII Thing
02-02-2006, 03:53 AM
...

Humour isn't your forte, is it?
Actually it is. I just have a problem with typing jokes.

Ishin Ookami
02-02-2006, 06:44 AM
Well it sure was a hella of alot better than the spirits within......god damn thing doesn't even deserve capital letters.

Better than spirits within, Now THATS funny. I have a hard time thinking of ANY films Advent Children is better than.

Noj_R
02-02-2006, 07:44 AM
Well it sure was a hella of alot better than the spirits within......god damn thing doesn't even deserve capital letters.

Amen

JackNapier
02-02-2006, 03:31 PM
Better than spirits within, Now THATS funny. I have a hard time thinking of ANY films Advent Children is better than.


Well think about it, spirits within didn't even have any relevence to anything Final Fantasy at all. Although if someone wasn't a fan of FF7 then well obviously they didn't like the movie or won't (not saying you didn't like FF7 just giving an example). Now what I'd like to see is a sequel to FF6, I'm drooling at the thought of it.

Death Penalty
02-02-2006, 06:40 PM
Well think about it, spirits within didn't even have any relevence to anything Final Fantasy at all. Although if someone wasn't a fan of FF7 then well obviously they didn't like the movie or won't (not saying you didn't like FF7 just giving an example). Now what I'd like to see is a sequel to FF6, I'm drooling at the thought of it.
A prequel would be cool with the war of the magi.

Ishin Ookami
02-02-2006, 07:25 PM
Well think about it, spirits within didn't even have any relevence to anything Final Fantasy at all. Although if someone wasn't a fan of FF7 then well obviously they didn't like the movie or won't (not saying you didn't like FF7 just giving an example). Now what I'd like to see is a sequel to FF6, I'm drooling at the thought of it.

None of the Final Fantasy titles have anything to do with each other either, save the title and a few names and terms, and thats just a technicality. Spirits Within just focused on telling a good story, like all of Sakaguchi's titles.

And honestly, I thought FFVII was a decent enough title. Advent Children, I was entertained initially, than I watched it again and the flaws just kept beating any fondness I might have had from the initial viewing out of me. Poor direction, no plot coherence whatsoever, Deus Ex Machina resolution for all major crisis points (IE Aeries will fix it, she fixes EVERYTHING), characters who rely on gimicks (clouds bike, multi-part sword, tifa's large rack) rather than on actual clever writing to be likeable, I could go on and on.

SoulTaker*
02-02-2006, 08:58 PM
None of the Final Fantasy titles have anything to do with each other either, save the title and a few names and terms, and thats just a technicality. Spirits Within just focused on telling a good story, like all of Sakaguchi's titles.

And honestly, I thought FFVII was a decent enough title. Advent Children, I was entertained initially, than I watched it again and the flaws just kept beating any fondness I might have had from the initial viewing out of me. Poor direction, no plot coherence whatsoever, Deus Ex Machina resolution for all major crisis points (IE Aeries will fix it, she fixes EVERYTHING), characters who rely on gimicks (clouds bike, multi-part sword, tifa's large rack) rather than on actual clever writing to be likeable, I could go on and on.
Green eggs and ham is a more interesting story then The Crap Within.

Shadow The Red XIII Thing
02-02-2006, 09:06 PM
Green eggs and ham is a more interesting story then The Crap Within.
Nuff Said:eep:

The Devourer Of Worlds
02-02-2006, 11:45 PM
Green eggs and ham is a more interesting story then The Crap Within.
Quoted for truth. At least Green Eggs and Ham entertains its target audience; you have to search far and wide for a Final Fantasy fan who enjoyed The Spirits Within. I really have no idea how a movie that seems to do many things right could end up so very, very wrong.

kikimm
02-03-2006, 12:36 AM
Please keep the discussion about AC, not TSW.

sephiroth the dark angel
02-03-2006, 04:30 PM
Green eggs and ham is a more interesting story then The Crap Within.

eggs aren't green though(exept rotten ones)

JackNapier
02-03-2006, 10:11 PM
None of the Final Fantasy titles have anything to do with each other either, save the title and a few names and terms, and thats just a technicality. Spirits Within just focused on telling a good story, like all of Sakaguchi's titles.

And honestly, I thought FFVII was a decent enough title. Advent Children, I was entertained initially, than I watched it again and the flaws just kept beating any fondness I might have had from the initial viewing out of me. Poor direction, no plot coherence whatsoever, Deus Ex Machina resolution for all major crisis points (IE Aeries will fix it, she fixes EVERYTHING), characters who rely on gimicks (clouds bike, multi-part sword, tifa's large rack) rather than on actual clever writing to be likeable, I could go on and on.


I didn't say the FF games had anything to do with eachother (minus the cid's, terra's, chocbos, moogles, cactuars, crystals, wedges, biggs, ifrits, shivas, ramuhs, bombs and countless other enemies, names etc.) I was just sayin that FF6 would be awesome as a movie/show/anime.

uzi_the_klown
02-04-2006, 03:57 AM
yea i enjoyed both advent children final order and spirts with in make fun of me if u want and oh ARE WE EVER GONNA GET A DAMN RELEASE date for that movie

sephiroth the dark angel
02-05-2006, 07:53 PM
i think they just wanted to make a movie of an ff they haven't made so they invented spirits within

Oddball19
02-05-2006, 10:34 PM
I liked the movie in the sense that I found it "cool" but I have to be negative and say it was just something to please the fanboys. Only about 100+ unanswered questions as well from the story.

uzi_the_klown
02-06-2006, 04:37 PM
i know im redy to see what we change bout the story in english

liquidultima
02-07-2006, 10:47 AM
Who is washington? Is he a young kid in the FFVII game? I can't remember, but he's in the mooovie.

Russielloyd
02-07-2006, 08:25 PM
Washington!?, what the hell you talking about, there's no one in the movie or the game by that name.

Lord Magician
02-08-2006, 12:26 AM
We are not trying to look for a Masterpiece, or are we?

The movie was great. I say there is a decent amount of plot. The action was awesome. If they made it longer for more plot and action, that would have been a lot better. But overall, they did a great job putting it together. Maybe not the best movie (I think it is the best, since no matter how many times I see it, it is still VERY GOOD). But this movie still deserves a lot of respect.

Setzer Gabianni
02-08-2006, 03:06 PM
Probably, graphically wise anyway.

Action wise as well, seeing as over the top stuff is what FF is made of xD

liquidultima
02-14-2006, 11:45 AM
oh yeah, not washington, lol, i mean Denzel ... sorry (see how i got mixed up?) Mmmm...

Who was Denzel in the game?

tifastrife
02-14-2006, 12:21 PM
i loved the movie the fights were the best part of the film :love: :) :D

Russielloyd
02-14-2006, 11:37 PM
Denzel wasn't in the game. Well technically he is but you never see him.

Loony BoB
02-18-2006, 03:05 PM
I've renamed this thread so that hopefully we won't have as many "I just say FFVII:AC and think it is really cool" threads. Might be optimistic, but it can only help make the thread a bit more obvious. Anyway, I thought FFVII:AC was okay, but I never took it as the be-all and end-all of things to look forward to. I guess if you don't get your hopes up then it's pretty cool to look at and it has an average storyline. But as I said, I didn't make a huge deal about it so that way I wasn't as disappointed like some people have been. I'd give it a 3.5/5 or a 4/5 if you take into account that it's 100% computer generated as a stronger point than the film itself.

a nirvana fan
02-18-2006, 10:30 PM
I think this is one of my greatest films I've EVER seen, I really enjoyed watching it.

Crysis
02-19-2006, 08:19 PM
i think the storyline realy sucked... the salvation of this film is the special effects, the music and the fights...

lone_berserker
02-20-2006, 03:56 AM
Yea. I strongley agree with you. The special effects are the catylist and salvator of the general populus XD.

Ishin Ookami
02-20-2006, 06:50 AM
Not really, I thought the CGI was pretty inconsistent. Tifa's fight with Loz being one of the low moments where it felt like they were low on actual frames they could animate with and had to use camera angles/pans, slow mo/speed frame shots and motion blur effects to hide the incredibly poor animation. shots with the crew moving or walking look okay, but actual fight scenes I found often look stiff and incredibly unrealistic. Im talking below first season of reboot quality of cgi at times.

I understand square's target audience with this film, but I wish they had actually written a halfway decent script. This films plot was so lowbrow and fanboyish that it makes the script for Deuce Bigalow: European Gigalow look like Einsteins theory of relativity, written the LONG way, by comparison.

The Devourer Of Worlds
02-20-2006, 07:33 AM
I'm not sure what kind of insane CGI movies you've seen, but I don't think I've seen anything as lifelike as AC in the past. The only movie that comes to mind is TSW, and that goes from 'incredible' to 'FFVIII FMV's' every so often. It seems silly to nitpick when no one has done any better.

cloud_doll
02-20-2006, 04:36 PM
Advent Children was a pretty cool movie, but it was mostly just fighting scenes. I think they should've added more to the story then it would of been more interesting. But it was pretty good other than that and was a comeback from Spirits Within :p

sephiroth the dark angel
02-20-2006, 05:12 PM
i think the storyline realy sucked...

yes true but chopping of buildings with swords didn't suck did it?:D
though you're right the story line sucked...a bit. :(

Ishin Ookami
02-21-2006, 04:17 AM
I'm not sure what kind of insane CGI movies you've seen, but I don't think I've seen anything as lifelike as AC in the past. The only movie that comes to mind is TSW, and that goes from 'incredible' to 'FFVIII FMV's' every so often. It seems silly to nitpick when no one has done any better.

I'm sorry but no effing way. Take a look at the scene I mentioned, where Tifa fights with Loz. Using slow motion and fast forward frames to enhance action scenes is a common trick used in asian cinema, but THAT particular scene overused both effects to create something that looked akin to an epileptic seizure. Than take a look at the actual animation, it is incredibly choppy looking, with major moves taking place either off screen, in the fast frame effect, or covered up with the blur effect of Loz moving quickly. In the deciding series of moves, Loz throws the bench, and tifa punches the bench, with loz SUDDENLY appearing in front of her crouched and ready to unload with his weapon. You hear the weapon unload and then see tifa on the ground, but dont see the actual action taking place. THAT is awful animation values. Sure resolution, skin tone, and lighting effects looked nice, some of the best ever. But the actual quality of the ANIMATION itself, the way the characters moved just looked incredibly unnatural. In most of the hand to hand combat scenes, the animators again make use of the speed frame effect/slow mo effect to gratuitous levels, but often the characters just move with a very jerky and stiff rate. Like marionettes rather than characters that have to feel inertia, or physical consequences.

I can see why people will like AC, it features the cast of the first final fantasy the majority of the western world ever played. But looking past gratuitous fan service the dialogue and story is ludicrous:


I want to be forgiven. I want to be forgiven. I want to be forgiven. Can sins be forgiven?

I never tested it.

Test?

The animation is often sub-par.

The direction is incompetent.

and WTF is up with them looking for Jenova's Neck? Thats one part of the body that wouldnt even house any DNA. DNA is contained in the genetic structure, not the skeleton. Her stomach, her heart, her head, hell I'd even settle for an eye. But her NECK?

It's not like its a total piece of crap, The turks were fun as hell, rufus had a shining moment with kadaj, vincent and yuffie have a good line here and there, but it really is too little and too late.

The Devourer Of Worlds
02-21-2006, 09:26 AM
I just watch the scene again, and I really don’t see it. Apart from the fact that most of there motions seem to defy the laws of gravity, there really isn’t anything ‘unnatural’ about the way they move. I’m pretty sure the scene you are talking about was purposely made like that for stylistic effect, rather than to cover graphical limitations.

I agree with you about the dialogue though; I really hope that it was due to a terrible translation attempt.

seow
02-21-2006, 11:22 AM
Found it to be quite entertaining, for someone who never had the chance to play the FF series of games and has never owned a ps before.:cry:

A little search on the net filled me in on the characters etc.:)

Dignified Pauper
02-21-2006, 05:36 PM
Not enough plot.

I'd like to know where Kadaj and the gang came from, but this may be in the book that bridges the gap between VII and AC. Squall of Seed would probably know a lot more about this.

Where is he when we need him most!

Russielloyd
02-21-2006, 08:48 PM
There 3 people created from Sephiroth from when Cloud beat him at the northern crater. Dont get the opinion that their 3 personalities that Sephiroth possesed because there not. They are 3 different personalities with the will of Sephiroth.

Masamune·1600
02-21-2006, 09:59 PM
and WTF is up with them looking for Jenova's Neck? Thats one part of the body that wouldnt even house any DNA. DNA is contained in the genetic structure, not the skeleton. Her stomach, her heart, her head, hell I'd even settle for an eye. But her NECK?

They aren't looking for JENOVA's neck. That's just a particularly bad fan translation.


I'd like to know where Kadaj and the gang came from, but this may be in the book that bridges the gap between VII and AC.

On the Way to a Smile makes no mention of the SHM.

Regarding the origins of Kadj, Loz, and Yazoo, here's a brief explanation as to the primary plot device of AC.


Kadaj is a Remnant of Sephiroth. This means that, as was also the case with Loz and Yazoo, he was formed when Sephiroth's body was blown apart following the final chain of events in the original game. Having been formed from Sephiroth, the three SHM are Sephiroth, in a sense, and instinctually desire to merge with JENOVA cells, which Kadaj does.

Sephiroth is, effectively, almost indistinguishable from JENOVA, as he was given JENOVA cells while still in the womb, and has thus become the conscious embodiment of JENOVA's immutable aims. The aims become more complicated in Sephiroth, but stay true to the quintessential "needs" of JENOVA.

This matters because Sephiroth's will is more important to his identity than his body. His identity is bound up in his personal perception--the silver haired man with the long sword--but the shape-altering qualities of JENOVA can replicate this completely (as seen with the Sephiroth forms encountered throughout the original game). His will, however, even though identical in fundamental goal to JENOVA, is unique, and therefore is necessary for JENOVA to fully manifest the form of Sephiroth. In being Remnants, Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo also manifested the thoughts/will of Sephiroth. Hence, Kadaj and the others are unknowingly subject (to a degree) to Sephiroth, embodied in their desire to bring about "Reunion." When, then, Kadaj merges his physical body (the biological material of Sephiroth, and, more importantly, the manifestation of Seph's thoughts and will), it is possible for a fully real Sephiroth to again realize himself on Gaia.

What this means, in the long run, is that Sephiroth can only truly die when all JENOVA cells are eliminated, and/or when it becomes impossible for him to manifest his will on Gaia. Some JENOVA cells likely still exist following AC, but it seems unlikely that there is any obvious way for Sephiroth to use them to again manifest himself.

Ishin Ookami
02-22-2006, 03:23 AM
Very detailed Masamune, but if it is not mentioned in the novella, than just WHERE are you getting this info? it certainly isnt mentioned ANYWHERE in the film.


They aren't looking for JENOVA's neck. That's just a particularly bad fan translation.

So far Ive seen two subtitled versions, the fansub, and one released by square in japan. Considering it was done by someone who's first language isnt english, I'd expect a incongruity here or there, but in both versions it is her neck. What body part did you find they we're hunting for?


I agree with you about the dialogue though; I really hope that it was due to a terrible translation attempt.

Dont get your hopes up. Even with a more flowing english translation on the localized release coming up in march, AC is still going to have A dead church girl resolving every major crisis in the film, which I still hate. One of my favorite american cartoons from the 90's, Exosquad, is a good example of HOW to let the proverbial $#!^ hit the fan. Allow me to get a bit off topic in order to make an example.

In this show its the future, humanity has terraformed mars and venus, the homeworlds are now at peace, but a new race they created as workers, The Neo Sapiens is less than happy. They were initially created to mine Mars, which had a less than hospitable climate even after terraforming. The Neo's rebelled and were defeated by the Exo-Fleets use of E-Frames (think the robotic suit Ripley piloted in Aliens, except loaded for war). Now 50 years later the Neo Sapiens have been secretly building a massive war fleet, using their more advanced intellects to make their E-frames more advanced as well as their space fleet. When the Exo-fleet is called away to deal with escalating pirate attacks, the Neo's attack the home worlds, and totally and effectively subjugate humanity. The Exo-fleet tries to respond, but instead they are outnumbered and outclassed, they manage to barely escape. But a year later they once again engage the Neo's warfleet, and are almost wiped out. 50 ships go in, 3 come out. escape pods are massacred and shot out of space, thousands die. GET IT!

This is how you build drama in a story, let people die, let people get hurt. Before the second battle between the space fleets, a Exo-fleet officer disobeys orders and attempts to find out what happened to her family on Venus when the Neo's took over. Venus was once a lush farm world, but since the Neo's took over the crops were burned and the left over human populace are now starving to death as they hide in caves. Drama, tragedy, death, It's called dramatic buildup. My issue is that AC has none of this. The bad guys join the lifestream (thanks Aeries), Sephiroth is taken out Wily Cyotee style, but you know he'll be back. Geostigma is cured (thanks Aeries) Shin Bahamut is defeated (thanks Aeries) Cloud is resurrected (thanks Aeries) Children are tended too (thanks Aeries) everyone lives happily ever after.

I'm all for mega happy endings, but howsabout we see a little drama, make the audience, as well as the players in the drama, sweat a bit before kicking it with the saccharine denouncement? Im sorry but a flowing english translation isnt going to change the fact that AC doesnt just make use of plot contrivance, IT IS PLOT CONTRIVANCE! Every dramatic resolution hinges on a person who's been dead for two years, rather than letting some drama be established. Sorry, but it's bloody impossible to paint over something like this.


I just watch the scene again, and I really don’t see it. Apart from the fact that most of there motions seem to defy the laws of gravity, there really isn’t anything ‘unnatural’ about the way they move. I’m pretty sure the scene you are talking about was purposely made like that for stylistic effect, rather than to cover graphical limitations.

What bothers me is the lack of weight or actual impact behind the animation. In Dragonball Z (to use a popular example) battles have impact due to limbs being torn off, bones being broken and/or dislocated, punches/kicks leaving bruises, and the actual effect of faces being distorted brutally when a particularly solid blow is landed. Ditto for all the best hong kong films. During extended fight scenes you can see actors becoming flushed, breathing hard, bruises, coughing up blood (blood pellets, but still, it creates a good effect). In advent however, there really is little impact. I mean even in Reboot, which was the first show done entirely in CGI, there was still a certain amount of impact, physics, and intensity used in all the action scenes. Advent children makes use of none of these principles, the action is just sorta... there. Bikes flip as is if they were origami boats. Cloud runs up the sides of tree's and hover's in the air deflecting kadaj's blows as with no discernible effort. Sephiroth pummels cloud and unleashes dizzying displays of agility and power, yet for all the impact it shows, I could be watching two sock puppets beat each other over the head.

The fight with Tifa really is a prime example. First of all, the use of bullet time and and fast forward frame effects was way overdone. Yes I know the matrix made these effects popular in the west, but the thing is Yuen Woo Ping has been in the business for almost 30 years. He knows how to use these effects for maximum impact. Nomura on the other hand, is a utter hack without the experience and talent needed to use these techniques effectively, and the result is a poorly directed fight scene, with animation that really does convey little impact (yet for those paying attention, tifa busted out every one of her limit breaks during that fight scene, So once again, there is something for the Fans to drool over besides her enhanced rack). I really think the animators could have done better, but I credit this flaw in the animation once again to Nomura's direction. He was aiming too much to imitating the style of other mediums that he neglected to try to instill a sense of depth into the animation. And IMO, a lack of depth is AC's chief offence.

liquidultima
02-22-2006, 12:38 PM
Denzel wasn't in the game. Well technically he is but you never see him.

When is he mentioned during the game?? anyone?

cloud_doll
02-23-2006, 02:22 AM
When is he mentioned during the game?? anyone?
He isn't.

Assassin_
03-02-2006, 11:35 AM
I saw it on Monday. There were a few things I thought could have been done better - the way they introduced yuffie/cid/nanki seemed kinda random, and I thought kadajs "transformation" should have been more gradual - but apart from that, it was an incredible film.

The CG was amazing ^_^;;