One Question That Needs Clearing Up...

[Kamrusepas]

Alright, I'll try to properly articulate what I'm trying to say here.

Me and a friend of mine have seriously been thinking about the plot of FFX lately. Here's our conclusion:

Since the Zanarkand that Tidus was born and raised in is a dream, wouldn't that make Jecht a dream too?
If Jecht is a dream, his being Sin is a dream.
Sin is a dream.
They spend the whole game fighting an imaginary product, a dream.

So eh.... wtf? Why base a game on defeating something that doesn't even exist?

[Tearz]

Though I am not entirely sure because it's been a while since I last played FFX.

I think the game was not simply for the defeat of Sin but also the elimination of Yu Yevon and the cycle of life, death and rebirth of Sin. They would get rid of Sin forever and summoners would no longer have to sacrifice themselves, only to have Sin reborn. I would think that they are not fighting an imaginary product, because it is real as anything else could be; killing people and causing destruction. That's about how real it could be.

As for all those technical things about the 'dream' and all... so sorry, can't really recall much at the moment.

[Kamrusepas]

Yes, Sin is real, but Jecht is not.

Also, since Jecht is just a dream, why didn't the Fayth stop dreaming about him when he started to wreak havoc? Or is it so that the dream sorta started living its own life?

[Tai-Ti]

i asked myself the same question, but if Jecht truwly was sin, then all they had to do was stop the fayths dreaming, and then Yu-Yevon would have been left all vaunrable, but games are never that simple.

[Christmas]

Also, since Jecht is just a dream, why didn't the Fayth stop dreaming about him when he started to wreak havoc? Or is it so that the dream sorta started living its own life?

They cannot stop dreaming as long as Yu Yevon is around.




Fayth: Yes... If you defeat Yun Yevon, it will end. Tell me, what do you
know about Yu Yevon?


Fayth: But, you know... When it is all over...we will wake, and our
dream will end. Our dream will vanish.
Tidus: Yeah. You've been dreaming a long time, haven't you?


The statement show that the fayth is being used for summoning.



Fayth: The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the war... They all became fayth-fayth for the summoning.


To end the dream means defeating Yu Yevon and not something that the fayth can do on their free will, since Yu Yevon is doing the summoning.



Inside Sin:

Yuna
"The fayth said it's pointless to keep dreaming."
"The dream will disappear, he said."
"What did he mean?"
"And what is it that Yu Yevon is summoning from within Sin?"
Tidus
"The dream of the fayth."


So basically, Yu Yevon is something like the summoner while the fayth are used for the summoning.

For references:

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=72747

[Masamune·1600]

Alright, I'll try to properly articulate what I'm trying to say here.

Me and a friend of mine have seriously been thinking about the plot of FFX lately. Here's our conclusion:

Since the Zanarkand that Tidus was born and raised in is a dream, wouldn't that make Jecht a dream too?
If Jecht is a dream, his being Sin is a dream.
Sin is a dream.
They spend the whole game fighting an imaginary product, a dream.

So eh.... wtf? Why base a game on defeating something that doesn't even exist?

You are correct in assuming that Jecht is also a Dream, but, in FFX, the term "Dream" is deceptive. Tidus, Jecht, and the other residents of Dream Zanarkand are Dreams of the Fayth in that they are given substance by that Dreaming. In other words, Tidus and Jecht, and Dream Zanarkand itself, are only dreams in the sense that their reality is necessarily manifested by Yu Yevon's Summoning, invoking the Dreaming of the Fayth. If that Dreaming ends (as it did at the end of the game), the link that Dream Zanrakand's populace has to Spira is removed, and their souls travel to the Farplane (in other words, they die).

In this way, it can be understood that Tidus and Jecht are not "dreams" in the conventional sense. In being Summoned, they're actually more akin to Aeons. In any case, Jecht had real physical presence (a physical reality substantiated by the process of Dreaming), and thus could interact with Spira in a physical way. Ultimately, he was used for Braska's Final Aeon. At the point that the Aeon pierced Sin, Yu Yevon possessed it, as it would provide the next "anchoring point" for the pyreflies that ultimately comprise Sin. From within, Yu Yevon would continue his fateful Summoning of the Dreams of the Fayth.

However, Tidus and the others did not defeat Sin in the conventional manner (using the Final Aeon, which necessarily perpetuates Sin). Rather, they actually defeated Yu Yevon. In destroying the progenitor of the Summoning/Dreaming, the Dreaming stopped, and Tidus lost his physical link to Spira.

In conclusion, the party did not spend the entirety of the game fighting a figment of the imagination. Rather, they fought an entity whose "core" was physically manifested by the very concept it helped to perpetuate.

[d£v!l'$ ph0£n!x]

i also think that sin has something to do with making the "dreams" have substance, as tidus and jecht travelled through sin to get to spira. though i am confused on how sin managed to get into the fayths dreams? and how auron was able to get a "lift" to the dream world on sin? (maybe it was a help from jecht's last shred of humanity). I still don't understand how jecht could get into the dreams though?

[Christmas]

i also think that sin has something to do with making the "dreams" have substance,

The substance is given to them through the fayth that dreamed Zanarkand with Yu Yevon summoning it from within Sin.


Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.


as tidus and jecht travelled through sin to get to spira. though i am confused on how sin managed to get into the fayths dreams?

It is said that Sin swim near the sea of Zanarkand until Jecht encountered it and was transported to the real world.

As Dream Zanarkand is being summoned into reality by Yu Yevon which is something like an Aeon, so It is physical and should be located somewhere in Spira. As for the exact location, it is not make very clear.


and how auron was able to get a "lift" to the dream world on sin? (maybe it was a help from jecht's last shred of humanity). I still don't understand how jecht could get into the dreams though?

As we see in the opening of how Tidus go to the real world, Auron threw him towards Sin and he got brought to the real world.


Auron: Don't make that face. Being dead has its advantages. I was able to ride Sin and go to your Zanarkand.

Just like how Jecht come to the real world, Auron just use the same way to get to the dream world.
As for Jecht getting to Dream Zanarkand, it is the same like how the previous Sin appeared near the sea of Dream Zanarkand.

[Masamune·1600]

i also think that sin has something to do with making the "dreams" have substance, as tidus and jecht travelled through sin to get to spira. though i am confused on how sin managed to get into the fayths dreams? and how auron was able to get a "lift" to the dream world on sin? (maybe it was a help from jecht's last shred of humanity). I still don't understand how jecht could get into the dreams though?

Actually, no. The Dreams of the Fayth naturally have substance; as with Aeons, the process of the Summoning gives them physical form. Sin is necessary, however, for residents of Dream Zanarkand to reach Spira, as Yu Yevon exerts a kind of overcontrol over Dream Zanarkand, whose residents are unaware of anything beyond the boundaries of their city anyway.

As the Dreaming is a physical event, like any Summoning, it takes place on Spira. Dream Zanarkand, then, is not another plane of existence/alternate dimension, but a physical location on Spira merely far removed from Bevelle, Luca, and the other places visited during the events of FFX. As such, all Sin needed to do to reach Dream Zanarkand was cross some undisclosed distance to reach the city; it was essentially the same thing as Sin moving toward any other population center on the planet.

Again, as Sin's journey to Dream Zanarkand was a physical event, bound up in physical travel, Auron had merely to ride along to also reach the place.


Auron: Don't make that face. Being dead has its advantages. I was able
to ride Sin and go to your Zanarkand.

Auron, an Unsent, was not bound to Spira in what might call the normal fashion, and thus was able to use Sin as a vehicle to the city. Jecht would have had no idea that Auron was even "along for the ride." Still exerting some small amount of control over Sin (also noted by Sin's preference for the Hymn of the Fayth), "Jecht" went to Dream Zanarkand, to see his son. There, Sin attacked the city because Sin is inherently destructive.

Like any resident of Dream Zanarkand, Jecht had real physical form. His "status" as a "Dream" merely meant taht his existence necessarily required the continued Dreaming of the Fayth. If it stopped, his link to Spira would be removed, and he would die. As this was the case, there was nothing that precluded him from giving himself to the creation of the Final Aeon, nor was there anything that prevented Braska's Final Aeon from being possessed by Yu Yevon and used as the "anchor" for a new Sin. Finally, as already noted, travelling to Dream Zanarkand was, really, an unextraordinary event.

[DocFrance]

I think it's just that the writers didn't bother to think this one through. I wouldn't put too much thought into it.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

As I recall, Auron says "when Jecht touched Sin, he became real."

I imagine that's because of Yu-Yevon, just as how the Fayth can make Tidus real at the end of X-2

[xX.Silver.Wings.Xx]

So many people have posted something along these lines... It ruins the game if you think to much about the storyline... Anyway.. I think that Sin was real but sort of embodying the, um...... hostility between Zanarkand and Bevelle during the Machina War....Maybe...

[vampirepiggyhunter7]

Tidus... You mean Meg Ryan?

[Captain Maxx Power]

I always thought that the Dream Zanarkand was just that: a dream. I had no idea that it was an actual physical place just some distance away from Spira. I thought it was just a metaphorical creation within the minds/conciousness of the Fayth as one giant collective. Since Sin is an Aeon technically he could simply be "unsummoned" and sent back into the conciousness of the Fayth to Dream Zanarkand. Remember that Sin is pretty huge, so you'd think that people would be able to keep tabs on it to some extent, but it seems to just appear from nowhere then it attacks. I mean, how on Spira did it get under that frozen lake without breaking the surface?

[Christmas]

. Since Sin is an Aeon technically he could simply be "unsummoned" and sent back into the conciousness of the Fayth to Dream Zanarkand.

No. Sin is not an aeon. It is just a bunch of pyrefiles hold together by gravity spells.


Rikku
"Wait, gramps! Who's Yu Yevon?"
Mika
"He who _crafts_ the souls of the dead into unholy armor."
"An armor called Sin."
"Clad in it, Yu Yevon is invincible."

And also, we all know that even Sin is defeated by the final summoning, Yu Yevon will merge with the Final Aeon and created another Sin.





As I recall, Auron says "when Jecht touched Sin, he became real."

I imagine that's because of Yu-Yevon, just as how the Fayth can make Tidus real at the end of X-2

I believed that the term "real" is enabling Jecht to get to the real world and enable Jecht to live like a real person just like how Tidus make contact with Sin in the begining.

[Masamune·1600]

As I recall, Auron says "when Jecht touched Sin, he became real."

I imagine that's because of Yu-Yevon, just as how the Fayth can make Tidus real at the end of X-2

I believe the line you're referring to is...


Fayth: Would you and your father... Would you let us rest? Both you and
your father have been touched by Sin. Sin, the one around whom all
Spira-the spiral-revolves.

Tidus: What are you saying?

Fayth: You two are more than just dreams now.

However, this does not relegate Tidus and Jecht to having been mere apparitions prior to contact with Sin. Being "more than just dreams" refers to moving beyond the inherently limited sphere of influence occupied by the Dreams--being able to have an actual impact on Spira. Residents of Dream Zanarkand cannot by themselves leave Dream Zanarkand--they do not even know (or can know) than anything exists beyond the city's boundaries. However, by coming into contact with Sin, one can be brought to Spira, and move outside of Dream Zanarkand's limitations.

[tailz]

first of srry i dindnt have time to read everything im in a hurry but this struck me a few minutes ago when playing

the dream zanarkand is inside sin you fight against jecht above it, this is also why people can go from the dream zanarkand to the real world through sin. and reverse.

also yu yevon made the dream.(in a way he did)

if your dream would be real where would you keep it .

right, as close as possible right?

teh reason why sin came to dream zanarkand i havent figured out yet but once i got a theory about that ill post it.

[Christmas]

first of srry i dindnt have time to read everything im in a hurry but this struck me a few minutes ago when playing

the dream zanarkand is inside sin you fight against jecht above it, this is also why people can go from the dream zanarkand to the real world through sin. and reverse.

No. The dream zanarkand is physical and is somewhere in Spira. THe city you saw in Sin is Jecht's memories of his Dream Zanarkand thanks to pyrefiles.


also yu yevon made the dream.(in a way he did)

if your dream would be real where would you keep it .

right, as close as possible right?

Well ya, something like this.


Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

Yu Yevon used the fayth to summon the dream from inside Sin.


teh reason why sin came to dream zanarkand i havent figured out yet but once i got a theory about that ill post it.

The Sin that appear at the start of the game wanted to see his son Tidus so he went to dream zanarkand.

[Captain Maxx Power]

So...Is Dream Zanarkand the Matrix? That seems to be the most logical way I can think of it, a group of people caught in their own reality that can be drawn out when brought into contact with something from the 'real world', in this case Sin.

One thing I'd like to know is any evidence that suggests that Dream Zanarkand is a tangiable place at any point? And also if the Final Aeon is used to create the new Sin, how can Sin be anything more than an extension of this Aeon? Pyreflies binded together by Gravity spells (dunno where THAT one came from exactly) could still be dissapated in theory, much like the Aeons dissapear in a puff of pyreflies. Or maybe I'm just not getting this whole thing about how pyreflies work.

[Masamune·1600]

So...Is Dream Zanarkand the Matrix? That seems to be the most logical way I can think of it, a group of people caught in their own reality that can be drawn out when brought into contact with something from the 'real world', in this case Sin.

That's actually not a terrible way to put it. Residents of Dream Zanarkand aren't aware of anything beyond the city's boundaries, and are to a degree controlled by Yu Yevon, so the "system" could be likened to the Matrix, at least in how people are controlled.


One thing I'd like to know is any evidence that suggests that Dream Zanarkand is a tangiable place at any point?

Dream Zanarkand is always a fully palpable, physical location. This has been confirmed by the Ultimania Omega Guide for FFX, and can be inferred by examining the situation logically.


And also if the Final Aeon is used to create the new Sin, how can Sin be anything more than an extension of this Aeon? Pyreflies binded together by Gravity spells (dunno where THAT one came from exactly) could still be dissapated in theory, much like the Aeons dissapear in a puff of pyreflies. Or maybe I'm just not getting this whole thing about how pyreflies work.

Pyreflies are difficult to grasp, particularly since neither FFX nor FFX-2 provides much information on them. Defined in FFX-2 as...


Glossary of Spira: -Pyreflies-
A type of matter that drifts throughout Spira via its waterways. Despite the name, pyreflies are not insects and have no physical form. Pyreflies are known to react with our thoughts and preserve them as illusions. They are related to fiends, aeons, and even Sin, but exactly how remains unclear.

...they are left (perhaps deliberately) ambiguous. Despite the esoteric presentation of the concept, however, much can be inferred using what we do know.

A more accurate way to describe pyreflies (as opposed to the definition), based on what we see in-game, in both X and X-2, would be that they "react with our thoughts and" give them physical form. Basically, pyreflies seem to be able to coalesce into a physical entity based on the thoughts or spirit from which the congealed form is derived. The "Dreams" living in Dream Zanarkand (and the city itself), for example, are likely wholly comprised of pyreflies.

An Aeon, then, would receive its physical form from pyreflies (explaining why an Aeon's physical form dissolves to pyreflies when defeated), though effectively be "defined" by the "dream" of the fayth be utilized by the Summoner. As a result, Jecht (or, rather, Braska's Final Aeon) would have a definite physical form, created from pyreflies.

In the tradition originally established by Yunalesca, the (current) Final Aeon is used to "defeat" Sin. This actually perpetuates Sin, however, because Yu Yevon can possess the Final Aeon, which takes on one of Yu Yevon's original roles. Yu Yevon would have been the physical "anchor" for the first Sin; in other words, he was the point around which all the pyreflies would have coalesced to form Sin.


Mika: He who crafts the souls of the dead into unholy armor. An armor
called Sin. Clad in it, Yu Yevon is invincible. And the only thing that
could have pierced that armor, you have destroyed! Nothing can stop it
now.


Auron: It depends on what you mean by "alive." He is no longer human.
But then... I saw something of Jecht there in that shell, couldn't you?
You must have felt him when you came in contact with Sin.

As suggested by these statements, Sin really is an "armor," or a "shell." Having been "pierced" by the Final Aeon, Sin is defeated, but Yu Yevon merely possesses the Final Aeon, and uses it to perform his initial role, acting as the anchor for the pyreflies that comprise Sin--its heart, so to speak. Meanwhile, Yu Yevon's soul (the "bug" that acts as the final boss of FFX) is free to continue its desperate, immutable mission--the Summoning of Dream Zanarkand and its populace.

With the possessed Final Aeon acting as an anchor, the pyreflies can be held together by Gravity Magic (this information, the use of Gravity to hold Sin together, also comes from the Ultimania. It's not exactly intuitive, either).

The Final Aeon and Sin, then, can be considered akin so far as one is at the heart of the other, and both are composed of pyreflies. However, "pyrefly matter" seems to be differentiable, at least so far as the Final Aeon (or, originally, Yu Yevon) and Sin the shell are somewhat unique. They are not, of course, completely separate--the Final Aeon is at the heart of Sin, and, in many ways, is Sin.

[I Took the Red Pill]

The part that confuses me is when the actual Zanarkand was destroyed. Was it during the machina war, or when Sin came to Tidus's Zanarkand. If it was during the machina war, Tidus was never real exluding the dream? Someone please help me out here.

[Christmas]

The part that confuses me is when the actual Zanarkand was destroyed. Was it during the machina war, or when Sin came to Tidus's Zanarkand.

It was during the machina wars that the real Zanarkand is destroyed.
In the begining of the game, when Sin attacked Tidus' Zanarkand, that is the dream Zanarkand.


If it was during the machina war, Tidus was never real exluding the dream? Someone please help me out here.

Ad for the never real, it is partially correct but that is something to take note of.That is depend on how you define "real".

Dream Zanarkand is something like an aeon and is created through the pyrefiles which make it look "real" along with all its resident.

Dream Zanarkand IS a physical location just like Tidus is a "physical person" which you can touch him and feel him like a "real" person

[I Took the Red Pill]

ok thanks

[Renmiri]

Why do the fayth dream of Tydus Zanarkand ?
- Do they do it because they want to ?
- Does Yu Yeveon forces the to do it ?
- Why would Yu Yevon want a dream Zanarkand ?

I just don't get that part...

[Renmiri]

ok thanks
Hey see if you like my tale about "you"

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=74764

They call me Sin… Sir Jecht's memories

The battles are getting harder and harder! I finally managed to get where I want but I am exhausted, unable to think straight any longer… But I can't afford to loose my control. Not now. I battled too much to get here. Somehow I thought it would be easier this time.

I have to fight my murdering urges. Just a bit longer. My son Tidus is down there. I gave up too much to loose him now, but I can barely keep myself from killing him and all around him, oblivious to what I destroy. I need Auron to get my son out of there before I can't hold myself any longer. I fear the worst. Auron, where are you ?!?

Patience. If I loose my temper all is lost. I will be engulfed in a murderous rage and all the last 10 years would have been in vain. Patience, ha! I never had it, now it is even more impossible… Damn it, Auron where are you ?!? I can't hold out much longer.

Finally! What took you so long ? Of course I'm sure about it! Give me my son! Now!

...

[Christmas]

Why do the fayth dream of Tydus Zanarkand ?
- Do they do it because they want to ?


Cause Zanarkand is going to get destroy by the Bevelle soldiers and they can't bear to let it happens.


- Does Yu Yeveon forces the to do it ?

Something like they might have a mutual agreement in the begining but later the fayth regretted it.


Why would Yu Yevon want a dream Zanarkand ?

To see the place he rule forever live and flourish.

[Little Blue]

i understyand the majority of the stuff going on here, but i have a question about when the real Zanarkand was destroyed.

From what i understand from Maechen and others in the game, Zanarkand was destroyed by Sin, bevelles troops got to the top of Gagazet, saw all the Fayth nd got chased down the mountan by Sin, then some time later, some scouts crossed gagazet and found the ruins of Zanarkand.

Ok, so did the fayth gather before Sins arrival, were the people ordered up gagazet and told to become fayth by Yu Yevon before he became sin, or were the populace manipulated into it after sin destroyed Zanarkand, and so leaving only the survivors to become the Fayth?

[Christmas]

Ok, so did the fayth gather before Sins arrival, were the people ordered up gagazet and told to become fayth by Yu Yevon before he became sin, or were the populace manipulated into it after sin destroyed Zanarkand, and so leaving only the survivors to become the Fayth?

You can't have Dream Zanarkand or Sin if there is no fayth to begin with.

Cause the fayth is needed to summon Dream Zanarkand and after that, Yu Yevon gather pyrefiles with gravity spells and created Sin to protect him and Dream Zanarkand.

So all of them become fayth before Sin came about.

[Little Blue]

You can't have Dream Zanarkand or Sin if there is no fayth to begin with.
That wasnt what i asked, but yeah.


Cause the fayth is needed to summon Dream Zanarkand and after that, Yu Yevon gather pyrefiles with gravity spells and created Sin to protect him and Dream Zanarkand.

So all of them become fayth before Sin came about.
But if Sin is just an Armour, it doesnt need Fayth to exist. So why couldnt Yu Yevon become Sin, obliterate Zanarkand and once the survivers become the fayth couldnt Yevon begin summoning the Dream Zanarkand from within Sin

[BG-57]

Now can the Fayth freely travel between Dream Zanarkand and Spira, without Sin's help? Bahamut's Fayth seems to be able to appear there at will, albeit in a noncoporeal form.

The self-contained nature of Zanarkand made me wonder how the Abes could be playing another team, but when I replayed the opening I found out the Abes were playing the Duggles from block C-south. I guess Zanarkand like is New York City, with multiple teams for the same sport.

[Christmas]

But if Sin is just an Armour, it doesnt need Fayth to exist. So why couldnt Yu Yevon become Sin, obliterate Zanarkand and once the survivers become the fayth couldnt Yevon begin summoning the Dream Zanarkand from within Sin

Why dun we look at it this way. If this can be done, then there isn't any point of creating Dream Zanarkand cause Yu Yevon can just create Sin and destroy the Bevelle guys so the Real Zanarkand will be safe...

We should remember that Real Zanarkand is under threat from Bevelle that is why Yu Yevon resort to this.

Also something to take note of:


Fayth: Yes. Even if you defeat Sin with the Final Summoning, Yu Yevon will live. Yu Yevon will join with the Final Aeon. He will transform it into a new Sin.


Now can the Fayth freely travel between Dream Zanarkand and Spira, without Sin's help? Bahamut's Fayth seems to be able to appear there at will, albeit in a noncoporeal form.

It appear so seeing how the Fayth appeared at the begining of the game.

[Little Blue]

Why dun we look at it this way. If this can be done, then there isn't any point of creating Dream Zanarkand cause Yu Yevon can just create Sin and destroy the Bevelle guys so the Real Zanarkand will be safe...
Well yeah, there is that argument. But whose to say that he will be able to control Sin once Bevelle was destroyed and prevent it from destorying Zanarkand as well. This way, he can preserve Zanarkand with even more control than before and can still destroy bevelle should Sin happen to be passing. By destroying Zanarkand as Sin, his given the survivors a reason to become the Fayth, to preserve in a dream what was lost in reality

[Christmas]

Well yeah, there is that argument. But whose to say that he will be able to control Sin once Bevelle was destroyed and prevent it from destorying Zanarkand as well.

And as far as I know it, he had control of Sin since Sin never attacked Dream Zanarkand until Jecht become the final Aeon and wasn't quite under his full control at that moment.

But please note that it happens only because Jecht is the Final Aeon.

Also, if I am not wrong as I stated in the previous post quoted from the script, the Final Aeon act as a "core" while Sin as the "shell" to enable the whole thing to happen. So, in order to have Sin, you must have the core.

[Little Blue]

And as far as I know it, he had control of Sin since Sin never attacked Dream Zanarkand until Jecht become the final Aeon and wasn't quite under his full control at that moment.
I was refering to the real zanarkand, but your statement this does imply a certain level of control that Yevon has over Sin, even with the influence of the final aeon, only in this case, Jechts influence was greater.

Also, if I am not wrong as I stated in the previous post quoted from the script, the Final Aeon act as a "core" while Sin as the "shell" to enable the whole thing to happen. So, in order to have Sin, you must have the core.
But wasnt Yu Yevon the Original Core, before Zaon (Yunalesca's Final Aeon) defeated Sin and whatever was left of Yevon possessed him? there was no final aeon at Sins birth, and because of this, Yevon may have had a considerable degree of control over Sin, for short periods at least, eg, allowing the time for the survivors to becme fayth for the dream.

[Christmas]

I was refering to the real zanarkand, and this does imply a certain level of control that Yevon has over Sin, even with the influence of the final aeon, only in this case, Jechts influence was greater

If he doesn't bear to attack Dream Zanarkand, why will he go attack the Real Zanarkand?

And even given though that Sin is destructive by nature, the Sin before Jecht never attacked Dream Zanarkand.


But wasnt Yu Yevon the Original Core, before Zaon (Yunalesca's Final Aeon) defeated Sin and whatever was left of Yevon possessed him? there was no final aeon at Sins birth

That's right.With Yu Yevon himself as the original Core, there isn't anyone to influence him or anything like Jecht for example, so he will have full control of it.

[Little Blue]

If he doesn't bear to attack Dream Zanarkand, why will he go attack the Real Zanarkand?
this i have no explanation for. If he can destroy real Zanarkand before Bevelle, he may believe he has saved it from a terrible fate. Perhaps attacking real Zanarkand, and creating dream Zanarkand is his way of preserving a way of life that knows no war, utter peace and that is why he allowed Real to be destroyed and yet fights against Sins nature to preserve Dream.


That's right.With Yu Yevon himself as the original Core, there isn't anyone to influence him or anything like Jecht for example, so he will have full control of it.
To an extent yes, but he may lose control one day, Sin's will may be too strong to permentantly resist, and Yevon can only allow himself brief periods of control to prevent sin from destroying something, like the Dream, or the Fayth.

This brings me to a question about what is Sins true nature. To bring death and destruction as Yevon and the Fayth claim, or did Yu Yevon have some other purpose in mind for Sin, eg only attack places where the people might become developed enough to destroy the Fayth or even find the physical manifestation of the Dream?

[Christmas]

To an extent yes, but he may lose control one day, Sin's will may be too strong to permentantly resist, and Yevon can only allow himself brief periods of control to prevent sin from destroying something, like the Dream, or the Fayth.

I dun think Sin has any will...since it is a shell, and the core make it destructive.


This brings me to a question about what is Sins true nature. To bring death and destruction as Yevon and the Fayth claim, or did Yu Yevon have some other purpose in mind for Sin,

I believed that Sin will just keep on destroying stuff and continue the Spiral of Death because it had lasted for 1000 years already, so if it had something purpose in mind, maybe it should have done so it earlier.


eg only attack places where the people might become developed enough to destroy the Fayth or even find the physical manifestation of the Dream?

The people wouldn't become developed if the Yevon Church control them which is why Yunalesca strike a deal with them.

[Little Blue]

I dun think Sin has any will...since it is a shell, and the core make it destructive.
Bad choice of words, nature may have been a better word, since we both agree that sin is destructive by nature, but it is the core may direct sin, that may fights or reinforces itss nature


I believed that Sin will just keep on destroying stuff and continue the Spiral of Death because it had lasted for 1000 years already, so if it had something purpose in mind, maybe it should have done so it earlier.

The people wouldn't become developed if the Yevon Church control them which is why Yunalesca strike a deal with them.
Yeah, i was just curious about this as it was a theory i had about Sin, but never mnd

[look_out_below]

I think people are looking into the story to hard, coming up with anwsers that arent really there. Just sit back and enjoy playing the game while trying to ignore inconsistencies and plot holes found throughout the game. But i guess if people enjoy posting and arguing go right ahead. But since im here has anyone taken into account what the impact that Tidus's mother appearing in Spira's farplane might have for the previous theories.

[Masamune·1600]

You can't have Dream Zanarkand or Sin if there is no fayth to begin with.

Actually, no. Sin's existence is completely independent of the Fayth.


But if Sin is just an Armour, it doesnt need Fayth to exist. So why couldnt Yu Yevon become Sin, obliterate Zanarkand and once the survivers become the fayth couldnt Yevon begin summoning the Dream Zanarkand from within Sin

With the exception of the question of chronology, this is what happened. Dream Zanarkand is manifested by the Dreaming of the Fayth; Sin, however, exists as an autonomous entity.

Having said that, however, this turn of events forces one to assume that, among other things, Yu Yevon could begin the Summoning once Sin had already been formed.


Now can the Fayth freely travel between Dream Zanarkand and Spira, without Sin's help? Bahamut's Fayth seems to be able to appear there at will, albeit in a noncoporeal form.

The Fayth appear in Dream Zanarkand only in a disembodied spiritual form; this, however, would be the same as projecting an appearance anywhere else on Spira. As Dream Zanarkand is an actual physical location, such an appearance is, in and of itself, nothing profound. However, one would suspect that there are certain limitations involved in interposing in one's own realized memory, as the Fayth might have otherwise found a mechanism to end the Dreaming independent of the original accident (Jecht's contact with Sin).


The self-contained nature of Zanarkand made me wonder how the Abes could be playing another team, but when I replayed the opening I found out the Abes were playing the Duggles from block C-south. I guess Zanarkand like is New York City, with multiple teams for the same sport.

Yes. In fact, this is inevitable, as Dream Zanarkand is self-contained, and is unaware of anything beyond th boundaries of itself. As a result, it is completely self-depenedent--any form of entertainment would have to come from within.


Why dun we look at it this way. If this can be done, then there isn't any point of creating Dream Zanarkand cause Yu Yevon can just create Sin and destroy the Bevelle guys so the Real Zanarkand will be safe...

This is incorrect, as Sin is innately destructive. There is no check upon Sin as regards the preservation of the original Zanarkand (indeed, Sin is the destroyer of the city); therefore, this avenue of thought is impossible. Understandably, you're arguing from another point, but the opposing view does not require this either.


Well yeah, there is that argument. But whose to say that he will be able to control Sin once Bevelle was destroyed and prevent it from destorying Zanarkand as well. This way, he can preserve Zanarkand with even more control than before and can still destroy bevelle should Sin happen to be passing. By destroying Zanarkand as Sin, his given the survivors a reason to become the Fayth, to preserve in a dream what was lost in reality

In order for this continuity to work, one would have to assume the following.

1. That Yu Yevon could begin and continue to Summon Dream Zanarkand after giving himself to the destructive reality of Sin

2. That the residents of Zanarkand, without the urging or input of Yu Yevon, would have independently decided to end their lives as humans and become Fayth

3. That the Fayth would have wanted to dedicate themselves, without the input of influence of Yu Yevon, to the perpetuation of a substantiated memory of Zanarkand

4. That the Fayth would have believed that Yu Yevon both could begin Summoning having become Sin, and would have locked himself into the Summoning of Dream Zanarkand

5. That this sequence of events would somehow take place more effectively than the established chronology

Again, your idea is not terribly off, but the sequence of events you propose does not fully work.


And as far as I know it, he had control of Sin since Sin never attacked Dream Zanarkand until Jecht become the final Aeon and wasn't quite under his full control at that moment.

Incorrect. Yu Yevon's control over Sin has never been more than marginal; if it were more profound, Yu Yevon could have simply used Sin to defeat Bevelle, and allow the original Zanarkand to persist as a living city. Moreover, the original event which threatened the "spiral of death" was actually Jecht coming into contact with Sin. As the "system" embodied by Sin could only be threatened by interrupting the isolation of Dream Zanarkand, Yu Yevon would not have desired this contact on any rational level.

Further still, Jecht had nothing to do with the attack on a personal level; Sin is inherently destructive, the center of the "spiral of death," and so brings destruction wherever it goes. Jecht was responsible for Sin going to Dream Zanarkand (and in this way, he influenced it uniquely, although one must remember that his initial contact with Sin was accidental), but Sin attacked Dream Zanarkand because it is Sin, not because the system of control was any different than it had been throughout the past ~1000 years.


Also, if I am not wrong as I stated in the previous post quoted from the script, the Final Aeon act as a "core" while Sin as the "shell" to enable the whole thing to happen. So, in order to have Sin, you must have the core.

In a sense. Yu Yevon himself was the original physical foundation for Sin; the possession of the Final Aeon for such a purpose only came about after the original Final Summoning pierced Sin.


I was refering to the real zanarkand, and this does imply a certain level of control that Yevon has over Sin, even with the influence of the final aeon, only in this case, Jechts influence was greater

Not really. Refer to my comments above. In the case of Braska's Final Aeon, it would seem that Yu Yevon had not fully taken control. This process was gradual.


Jecht: I can't hear the Hymn so well anymore. Pretty soon, I'm gonna be
Sin. Completely. I'm glad you're here now. One thing, though... When it
starts, I won't be myself anymore. I won't be able to hold myself back.
I'm sorry.

At no time can one truly overcome the destructive nature of Sin (with Jecht/Braska's Final Aeon as the core, it could temporarily be pacified by the Hymn of the Fayth, but this is temporary). However, Jecht obviously had limited directive, which in time would have likely disappeared completely.


But wasnt Yu Yevon the Original Core, before Zaon (Yunalesca's Final Aeon) defeated Sin and whatever was left of Yevon possessed him? there was no final aeon at Sins birth

Yu Yevon was the original foundation, the anchoring point for the formation of Sin. Yu Yevon's physical body would have been destroyed during the first Final Summoning; however, his "soul" could from there possess the Final Aeon, and perpetuate the spiral of death.

[Christmas]

As a matter of fact that Jecht went to pay his son a visit because he wanted to and he turned out attacking the city.

But in a sense which I meant that Sin never took the initative to attack Dream Zanarkand and Jecht went on his free will to see his son.

[Masamune·1600]

If he doesn't bear to attack Dream Zanarkand, why will he go attack the Real Zanarkand?

Simply put, Sin never came into contact with it. Jecht disappeared at sea; given the danger to the spiral of death implicit in Sin reaching Dream Zanarkand, it seems likely that Yu Yevon would have done whatever he could to prevent such contact.


That's right.With Yu Yevon himself as the original Core, there isn't anyone to influence him or anything like Jecht for example, so he will have full control of it.

Obviously not. If Yu Yevon had full control, there would have been no need to establish Dream Zanarkand. Sin could have defeated Bevelle, and left the original Zanarkand to prosper. As repeatedly stated, Sin is intrinsically destructive, regardless of who or what forms the foundation.


This brings me to a question about what is Sins true nature. To bring death and destruction as Yevon and the Fayth claim, or did Yu Yevon have some other purpose in mind for Sin, eg only attack places where the people might become developed enough to destroy the Fayth or even find the physical manifestation of the Dream?

Sin's purpose was exactly as stated; it was armor that prevented any interruption to the Summoning of Dream Zanarkand. Whether or not Yu Yevon knew that Sin would and/or intended for Sin to be a force of destruction and bringer of death is a matter of speculation, until such time as official word on the subject is disseminated from SE. We do know that, so long as the tradition of the Final Summoning was perpetuated, the spiral of death could not end.


The people wouldn't become developed if the Yevon Church control them which is why Yunalesca strike a deal with them.

A culture's level of development has nothing to do with whether or not Sin attacks. The Yevonite Church controlled the people for its own purposes. As to Yunalesca, it is anachronistic to suggest that Yevon struck a deal with Yunalesca, as Yevon (the political entity, not the Summoner) did not exist yet.


Maechen:
"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."


I think people are looking into the story to hard, coming up with anwsers that arent really there. Just sit back and enjoy playing the game while trying to ignore inconsistencies and plot holes found throughout the game. But i guess if people enjoy posting and arguing go right ahead.

The answers are there, which I why I've been able to provide a coherent argument.


But since im here has anyone taken into account what the impact that Tidus's mother appearing in Spira's farplane might have for the previous theories.

No impact at all, really. Although the residents of Dream Zanarkand are manifested by the Dreaming of the Fayth, that doesn't reduce them to mere figments of the imagination. Rather, their "souls" are completely real, merely given substance by the Dreaming. However, as their physical link to life is through this Dreaming, its end means the physical death of Dream Zanarkand and its populace.

However, the residents of Dream Zanarkand are not immortal, and the population of the city remains in flux, like any human population. People (Dreams) die in the normal course of time, and go to the Farplane at death. The end of the Dreaming merely necessitates the entire city "dying" at once, as all lose their physical connection to Spira.

[d£v!l'$ ph0£n!x]

i do know one thing, dream zanarkand is art of spira . . . or ratherwas. 1,000 years ago :D

[ElVaCaNo02YTSCV]

Personally...I don't think Tidus was a dream...I just think he was dead.... like Auron, Seymour, and other people as well.... at least thats what I think.... but another thing is the he entered the farplane... so that doesn't work huh.... another thing that I can think of is.... The Toxin... from sin made everyone believe Tidus was a person there... there's several ways of the plot...

[Masamune·1600]

i do know one thing, dream zanarkand is art of spira . . . or ratherwas. 1,000 years ago :D

Dream Zanarkand has been a physical location in Spira since its initial realization ~1000 years before FFX. Even at the time of FFX, it was a fully real, physical location. The original Zanarkand was destroyed ~1000 years before FFX.


Personally...I don't think Tidus was a dream...

Even if one discounts the information divulged by the Bahamut Fayth...


Fayth: The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the
war... They all became fayth-fayth for the summoning.

Tidus: The summoning... You mean Sin?

Fayth: No. I mean this place. A Zanarkand that never sleeps.

Tidus: What?

Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They
summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

Tidus: The people... What, they're all dreams? Me, too?

Fayth: Yes, you're a dream of the fayth. You, your father, your mother,
everyone. All dreams. And if the fayth stop dreaming...

The screen flashes, revealing the destruction of Zanarkand.

Tidus: No! So what if I'm a dream! I..I like being here.

Fayth: We've been dreaming so long...we're tired.

...it remains that Tidus "disappears" at the end of the game, when Yu Yevon is defeated and the Summoning is ended. Tidus himself is aware of this...


Tidus: Everyone! This is the last time we fight together, okay?

Wakka: Huh?

Tidus: What I'm trying to say is...after we beat Yu Yevon, I'll
disappear!

...but it is not his will to disappear. Rather, it is an inevitable reality, as he is a Dream of the Fayth, manifested in that Dreaming by the Summoning of Yu Yevon. Really, there can be no question that Tidus was a Dream.

[Savannah]

I think it's just that the writers didn't bother to think this one through. I wouldn't put too much thought into it.


Just sit back and enjoy playing the game while trying to ignore inconsistencies and plot holes found throughout the game.

As far as I can tell, there are no plot holes or evidence of writers not thinking things through in FFX. Masamune has explained everything pretty much accurately and thoroughly, if you read his posts. He's stated several times that "dreams" in Spira terms doesn't exactly mean that they are imaginary. Obviously, Tidus can think, talk, walk and appears to be just like everyone else in Spira-- he was just manifested by the dreaming of the Fayth. Tidus isn't imaginary, Jecht isn't imaginary, and Sin isn't imaginary. "Dream," in Spira, if you're referring to the dreams of the Fayth, does not mean "imaginary."

[ElVaCaNo02YTSCV]

Dream Zanarkand has been a physical location in Spira since its initial realization ~1000 years before FFX. Even at the time of FFX, it was a fully real, physical location. The original Zanarkand was destroyed ~1000 years before FFX.



Even if one discounts the information divulged by the Bahamut Fayth...



...it remains that Tidus "disappears" at the end of the game, when Yu Yevon is defeated and the Summoning is ended. Tidus himself is aware of this...



...but it is not his will to disappear. Rather, it is an inevitable reality, as he is a Dream of the Fayth, manifested in that Dreaming by the Summoning of Yu Yevon. Really, there can be no question that Tidus was a Dream.


Well to tell you the truth... I think he wasn't a dream because as he was disapearing.. he jumped into the water.. and he remained there. also if you finish FFX-2 correctly you can see Tidus at the end of the game... funny... and alittle confusing... to me they were just part of sin... as when sin traveled through time and pick people up from the past...

[Masamune·1600]

Well to tell you the truth... I think he wasn't a dream because as he was disapearing.. he jumped into the water.. and he remained there.

Tidus never jumped into the water. He can be seen reuniting with his father; long after that, he is seen emerging from the sea. This is meant to anticipate the Good and Perfect Endings to FFX-2; in other words, Tidus' emerging from the sea takes place two years after the end of FFX, and is not related to his jumping off of the airship. His "rebirth" is a completely different event from his death; it's possible that his rising from the water was a symbolic allusion to baptism, during which one "rises from the water to receive new life." Nevertheless, there is no question that Tidus spent two years on the Farplane.


to me they were just part of sin... as when sin traveled through time and pick people up from the past...

Neither Sin nor any other entity in FFX travels through time, or moves through time in any way other than the normal fashion. This is a common mistake, which I have attempted to address in my essay Tidus and Shuyin: An Analysis. The relevant excerpt related to the nature of time in Spira has been posted below.


Tidus, as is commonly known, was 17 year old during the events of FFX. However, some people have assumed that he is really ~1000 years old, having existed since Zanarkand was destroyed by Sin at the end of the Machina War. This stems from a misunderstanding of dialogue that takes place early in FFX.

Early on, Rikku tells Tidus that Sin destroyed Zanarkand a millennium before the events of FFX.

Rikku: Don't worry, you'll be better in no time. They say your head gets
funny when Sin is near. Maybe you just had some kind of dream?

Tidus: You mean I'm sick?

Rikku: Because of Sin's toxin, yeah.

Tidus: You sure?

Rikku: Yeah, there is no Zanarkand anymore. Sin destroyed it a thousand
years ago. So...no one plays blitzball there.

Tidus: Huh? What you do mean a thousand years ago? But I saw Sin attack
Zanarkand! You're saying that happened a thousand years ago? No way!




Later, after Tidus washes up near Besaid, Wakka confirms Zanarkand’s death long ago.

Tidus: It's true Zanarkand was destroyed, right? A thousand years ago?
So it's just a big pile of rubble now, isn't it?

Wakka: Long time ago, there were a whole lot of cities in Spira. Big
cities with machina-machines-to run 'em. People played all day and let
the machina do the work. And then, well, take a look. Sin came, and
destroyed the machina cities. And Zanarkand along with 'em. Yeah, that
was about a thousand years ago, just like you said.



As a result of this and similar information, many people have assumed that Tidus was thrown ~1000 years forward by his encounter with Sin. However, such is not the case. Dream Zanarkand, summoned by Yu Yevon from within Sin, has basically existed since the “real” Zanarkand was destroyed. While the city itself is relatively static, architecturally unchanging, and with its Aeon citizenry unaware of what lies beyond the waters, its population is static, in flux like any human population found elsewhere in Spira. Time passes in identical fashion in Dream Zanarkand as it does anywhere else; hence, the residents of Dream Zanarkand are born, live out their lives, and eventually die.

In-game dialogue supports this idea that time passes in Dream Zanarkand in the same way it should in the rest of Spira.

Man's Voice: I was in the coffee shop, running away from home when I
heard the news. Our hero, Jecht, gone. Vanished into thin air! My dad
must have been his biggest fan. I knew how sad he'd be. Heck, we all
were that day. "Zanar", I say to myself, "What are you thinking?" I went
running straight back home. We sat up talking 'bout Jecht all night. My
dad and I never talked so much. Whoa... Didn't mean to reminisce, folks.
Anyway... Ten years later, the Jecht Memorial Cup tournament is today!
The two teams that have won through to the finals are...of course, the
Abes from A-East, and the Duggles from C-South. I know there's a lot of
people out there today to see the star of the Abes! In just one year,
he's become the team's number one player! He's Jecht's blood, and the
new hope of blitzball! What kind of super play will he show us today?
Will we see father's legendary shot? I don't think I'm the only one
excited here, folks!



Priest: Ten years have passed since Lord Braska became high summoner.
And finally we receive a statue for our temple.



Realize that Jecht accompanied Braska on his pilgrimage for the Final Aeon. According to the dialogue, ten years have passes in Spira since this event. According to the man from Dream Zanarkand, who calls himself Zanar, ten years have also passed in that place. For every year that passes in Spira, a year passes in Dream Zanarkand. This also suggests the dynamic reality of events there; it does not reset to Jecht again excelling in Blitzball. Rather, the torch has passed to the next generation.

Driving the point home even further, we later observe a discussion between Tidus and Yuna where we are left with no doubt that the times correspond.

Yuna: You're a blitzball player, aren't you? From Zanarkand, right?

Tidus: You hear that from Wakka? Wakka doesn't believe me at all.

Yuna: But I believe you! I've heard, in Zanarkand...there is a great
stadium, all lit up even at night!

Tidus: Huh?

Yuna: Great blitzball tournaments are held there, and the stands are
always full!

Tidus: How do you know that?

Yuna: A man named Jecht told me. He was my father's guardian.

Tidus mumbles "Jecht" to himself in an unhappy way.

Tidus: My father...his name is Jecht!

Yuna: Amazing! You know, our meeting like this must be the blessing of
Yevon!

Tidus: Sounds like him, but it can't be him.

Yuna: Why not?

Tidus: My old man, he died. Ten years ago, off the coast of Zanarkand.

Yuna: I'm sorry.

Tidus: He went out to sea for training one day...and never came back.
And no one's seen him since then.

Yuna: Why, that's the day that Jecht came to Spira. It's true! I first
met Jecht ten years and three months ago! I remember, that was the day
my father left. The date fits, doesn't it?




Furthermore, we repeatedly see that Tidus himself has changed as time has passed. In several instances, we see flashbacks of a young Tidus, a child in Dream Zanarkand.

Jecht: You with a woman? You can't even catch a ball! Oh, what's the
matter? Gonna cry again? Cry, cry. That's the only thing you're good
for!

Young Tidus: I hate you.

Jecht: Huh? What'd you say?



Man: But, it's been nearly... It's been nearly a day already.

Woman: Perhaps you could go look for us.

Man: People are searching for him now.

Woman: Thank you.

Young Tidus: Who cares whether he comes back or not?

Woman: But he might die!

Young Tidus: Fine, let him!

Woman: Do you... Do you hate him so?

Young Tidus nods "yes".

Woman: If he dies, you'll never be able to tell him how much you hate
him.




Jecht: See? I told him what I thought of him, right there!

Tidus' Mom: Really?

Jecht: 'Course!

Tidus' Mom: I suppose, but...

Young Tidus: Mommy...

Tidus' Mom: Just a sec, dear.



Again, we see the change wrought by time. Ten years ago, Tidus was a child. Presently, he is a young adult.

Thus, while they are dependent upon the fayth and the Summoning within Sin for substantiation, the citizenry is entirely different from the residents that the fayth Dreamt to originally populate Dream Zanarkand. However, this citizenry is unaware of the Spira that exists outside the borders of Dream Zanarkand. Tidus had never heard of Bevelle, or Luca, or the actual Zanarkand, or any other location in Spira. As a result, he interpreted the Zanarkand long destroyed to be the same as Dream Zanarkand, his Zanarkand. This led many to the mistaken assumption that Tidus had been Dreamt 1000 years ago, the memory of Shuyin. However, realizing that Tidus really is only 17, we can see that the temporal distance between Shuyin and Tidus is massive. Tidus is certainly many generations removed from the original memories of Dream Zanarkand, and thus has no link of this manner to Shuyin.

This excerpt should be sufficient to explain your primary misconception, which seems to be the relationship between Zanarkand and Dream Zanarkand. They are not the same location; Tidus is not a resident of the city destroyed ~1000 years before the events of Final Fantasy X. Instead, he is from Dream Zanarkand, the city being Summoned by Yu Yevon, and manifested by the Dreaming of the Fayth. Sin does not go back in time to reach Dream Zanarkand; it merely travels across the ocean, and finds the city, which exists and moves in the same real-time as the rest of Spira.

[Renmiri]

But if Sin is just an Armour, it doesnt need Fayth to exist. So why couldnt Yu Yevon become Sin, obliterate Zanarkand and once the survivers become the fayth couldnt Yevon begin summoning the Dream Zanarkand from within Sin
Precisely!

But they say Yu Yevon is kind of mad (ya think ?) and just lives for the summoning so maybe he didn't care about what the other fayth were doing as long as he had his Sin


But wasnt Yu Yevon the Original Core, before Zaon (Yunalesca's Final Aeon) defeated Sin and whatever was left of Yevon possessed him? there was no final aeon at Sins birth, and because of this, Yevon may have had a considerable degree of control over Sin, for short periods at least, eg, allowing the time for the survivors to becme fayth for the dream.
I think Zaon, Jecht and all previous final Aeons are not "core". We see in the game that they are a lot less powerful than Yu Yevon (even though Jecht gives the mad summoner a run for his money sometimes). He must use them as a way to control or create Sin but from the Sin as an armor concept I get the impression that Sin and it's Aeons are ALL around Yu Yevon, like a protective shell around it's core. They can't be core and armor at the same time IMHO

Incidentally, I incorporated some of the info from here in my short story about Yunalesca
Look for it on the Writers Corner of this Forum

Or FanFiction.net

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2687313/1/


This brings me to a question about what is Sins true nature. To bring death and destruction as Yevon and the Fayth claim, or did Yu Yevon have some other purpose in mind for Sin, eg only attack places where the people might become developed enough to destroy the Fayth or even find the physical manifestation of the Dream?

Yu Yevon is a villain IMHO. He got a taste of Sin's power and wouldn't, couldn't let go of it. As the fayth says in the game: "He lives for the Summoning"

Incidentally, I have some ideas about how the whole Calm / Sin violence can be explained.

It seems Sin needs "fresh" fayths to be able to show up again, as it is always killing people. Why else it would do it ? Yu Yevon is not a murderer - remember Bahamut's fayth: "Yu Yevon is not good or bad" ? So we can assume Yu Yevon / Sin need the killing to keep their power

But if Sin just kill all in Spira it will not have any more "fresh" fayths to form anew. If Yu Yevon wants to be immortal AND invincible in his Sin Armor he can not kill his golden goose, i.e., the people of Spira that "feed" his invincible armor. Like a lion praying on zebras Yu Yevon / Sin would instinctively know it has to refrain from killing any on that herd for a period, after it feeds. The lion goes hunt somewhere else, Sin goes to sleep and Spira has it's Calm...
Hence Sin needs the 10 year Calm as much as Spirans do.

Makes a twisted kind of sense, heh ?

Do not post more than once in a row. Use the edit/delete button if you wish to add to your post. ~ Leeza

[Little Blue]

Yu Yevon is a villain IMHO. He got a taste of Sin's power and wouldn't, couldn't let go of it. As the fayth says in the game: "He lives for the Summoning"

Incidentally, I have some ideas about how the whole Calm / Sin violence can be explained.

It seems Sin needs "fresh" fayths to be able to show up again, as it is always killing people. Why else it would do it ? Yu Yevon is not a murderer - remember Bahamut's fayth: "Yu Yevon is not good or bad" ? So we can assume Yu Yevon / Sin need the killing to keep their power

But if Sin just kill all in Spira it will not have any more "fresh" fayths to form anew. If Yu Yevon wants to be immortal AND invincible in his Sin Armor he can not kill his golden goose, i.e., the people of Spira that "feed" his invincible armor. Like a lion praying on zebras Yu Yevon / Sin would instinctively know it has to refrain from killing any on that herd for a period, after it feeds. The lion goes hunt somewhere else, Sin goes to sleep and Spira has it's Calm...
Hence Sin needs the 10 year Calm as much as Spirans do.

Makes a twisted kind of sense, heh ?

In a way it does, i ent to sure about the feeding habits of sin, but all sin needs the fayth for is for Yu Yevon to possess once they have destroyed sin, and so all Sin needs the calm for is to become strong again and to become big after possessing the fayth.


But they say Yu Yevon is kind of mad (ya think ?) and just lives for the summoning so maybe he didn't care about what the other fayth were doing as long as he had his Sin
True, he lives for the summoning, and Sin lives to protect him. As for the fayth, as long as they keep dreaming, he can keep summoning, so no, it appears as though he cares little about the action of the fayth.


He can be seen reuniting with his father; long after that, he is seen emerging from the sea. This is meant to anticipate the Good and Perfect Endings to X-2
Just out of curiosity, what is Tidus in X-2, i find it hard to believe he's still a dream since the fayth have stopped dreaming, but by that same token, since they're all just pyreflies on the farplane, if tidus was made to be a real person, how could the souls of the fayth do that? (if this is answered in the perfect ending, just say its in the perfect end, cos i havent seen that end yet)

[Christmas]

Precisely!

But they say Yu Yevon is kind of mad (ya think ?) and just lives for the summoning so maybe he didn't care about what the other fayth were doing as long as he had dream Zanarkand and Sin protecting him


I think Zaon, Jecht and all previous final Aeons are not "core". We see in the game that they are a lot less powerful than Yu Yevon (even though Jecht gives the mad summoner a run for his money sometimes). He must use them as a way to control or create Sin but from the Sin as an armor concept I get the impression that Sin and it's Aeons are ALL around Yu Yevon, like a protective shell around it's core. They can't be core and armor at the same time IMHO

Did you see Yu Yevon flying out of Jecht's body after Jecht is defeated? It depends on how you look at it or look at "possession".


Incidentally, I have some ideas about how the whole Calm / Sin violence can be explained.

It seems Sin needs "fresh" fayths to be able to show up again, as it is always killing people. Why else it would do it ? Yu Yevon is not a murderer - remember Bahamut's fayth: "Yu Yevon is not good or bad" ? So we can assume Yu Yevon / Sin need the killing to keep their power

He just want to summon Dream Zanarkand and the "fresh" fayth thing doesn't really come in place.


But if Sin just kill all in Spira it will not have any more "fresh" fayths to form anew. If Yu Yevon wants to be immortal AND invincible in his Sin Armor he can not kill his golden goose, i.e., the people of Spira that "feed" his invincible armor.

He dun really need any fresh fayth to substain Sin. People send new fayth aka Final Aeon to him because they want to destroy Sin. He just possess the new fayth and continue on with his summoning cause his old one along with Sin is gone thanks to the Final Aeon.



Like a lion praying on zebras Yu Yevon / Sin would instinctively know it has to refrain from killing any on that herd for a period, after it feeds. The lion goes hunt somewhere else, Sin goes to sleep and Spira has it's Calm...
Hence Sin needs the 10 year Calm as much as Spirans do.

Yu Yevon need time to reform another Sin.

[tidus_rox]

When the party is about to face yunalesca. she says that they must choose a member of the party to become the next final aeon. so when jetch choose to 20 years before he was a dream but then was converted into the final aeon.;) thx,
Cody!:cool:

[Masamune·1600]

But they say Yu Yevon is kind of mad (ya think ?) and just lives for the summoning so maybe he didn't care about what the other fayth were doing as long as he had his Sin


Yu Yevon is not at all insane, as that implies some sort of a warped will. His situation is much more profound; he cannot move beyond the Summoning. His entire existence has now been defined by the Summoning; he embodies it--he is the Summoning. "Car[ing]" what the Fayth think is a completely irrelevant statement; Yu Yevon cannot care, as that involves a concept outside of the definition that he has become.

Also, Yu Yevon is not a Fayth.


I think Zaon, Jecht and all previous final Aeons are not "core". We see in the game that they are a lot less powerful than Yu Yevon (even though Jecht gives the mad summoner a run for his money sometimes). He must use them as a way to control or create Sin but from the Sin as an armor concept I get the impression that Sin and it's Aeons are ALL around Yu Yevon, like a protective shell around it's core. They can't be core and armor at the same time IMHO

This is incorrect. The Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega guide, an official document from SE, unambiguously states that Sin is comprised of pyreflies, and held together by Gravity Magic.

As to the matter of the Final Aeon, it forms the foundation around which pyreflies coalesce to form Sin. Initially, Yu Yevon's physical body was this anchor; however, aftering being pierced by Yunalesca's Final Aeon, he merely possessed said Aeon and used it as the basis for the next Sin. Each time Sin is pierced by a Final Aeon, the previous Final Aeon is physically defeated and dispersed--and the "conquering" Final Aeon is possessed and made into the next foundation.

It's obvious that a Final Aeon is not necessary for the control of Sin; after all, Sin predated the tradition of the Final Summoning. However, once Yu Yevon's physical body was destroyed, Yu Yevon was left vulnerable. Had their not been an Aeon to possess, a powerful enough attack could have destroyed him completely.

In summation, it is correct to view the current Final Aeon as a foundation about which Sin is formed. Moreover, from within this "heart," Yu Yevon possesses a physical presence, protecting him in the case of the defeat of Sin. As only the Final Summoning had been used to defeat Sin prior to the actions of Tidus and the others...


Fayth: Yes. Even if you defeat Sin with the Final Summoning, Yu Yevon
will live. Yu Yevon will join with the Final Aeon. He will transform it
into a new Sin.

Yuna: Yu Yevon merges with the aeon...

Fayth: Then, protected by this new Sin he has created, Yu Yevon
continues the summoning

...it's obvious that Sin (and the spiral of death) would have been perpetuated.


Yu Yevon is a villain IMHO. He got a taste of Sin's power and wouldn't, couldn't let go of it. As the fayth says in the game: "He lives for the Summoning"

No. The quote is taken completely out of context; the Bahamut Fayth explicitly states that Yu Yevon cannot be defined as "good" or "evil."


Fayth: Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago. He was peerless. Yet now
he lives for one purpose: only to summon. He is neither good, nor evil.
He is awake, yet he dreams. But...maybe not forever.

Within this context, it is clear that Yu Yevon, simply put, cannot stop Summoning. It has nothing to do with power; Yu Yevon has no desire for power, as all he desires--can desire--is the continued Summoning and the related manifestation of Dream Zanarkand. Moreover, Yu Yevon never really had a lust for power; the substantiation of Dream Zanarkand was not made out of a bid for power, but out of a desire that Zanarkand not die.


Incidentally, I have some ideas about how the whole Calm / Sin violence can be explained.

It seems Sin needs "fresh" fayths to be able to show up again, as it is always killing people. Why else it would do it ? Yu Yevon is not a murderer - remember Bahamut's fayth: "Yu Yevon is not good or bad" ? So we can assume Yu Yevon / Sin need the killing to keep their power

This statement doesn't make sense. If Yu Yevon is not explicitly evil, then he could not willingly murder for the reason of his own power and ascendancy. Killing has nothing to do with Yu Yevon, really; Sin is destructive, and that is a reality that cannot be altered. Yu Yevon is neither good nor evil; he no longer even understands that he is killing. He is completely bound up in the overarching reality of the Summoning.

Also, Sin does not need "fresh fayths." Sin persists indefinately; the Final Summoning as a tradition is merely an aspect of this. Since the Final Aeon is possessed to create a new Sin; Sin continues. However, if no Final Summoning takes place (and, in the history of Spira, Final Summonings have not been all that frequent), nothing exists that can defeat Sin, so Sin continues.


But if Sin just kill all in Spira it will not have any more "fresh" fayths to form anew. If Yu Yevon wants to be immortal AND invincible in his Sin Armor he can not kill his golden goose, i.e., the people of Spira that "feed" his invincible armor. Like a lion praying on zebras Yu Yevon / Sin would instinctively know it has to refrain from killing any on that herd for a period, after it feeds. The lion goes hunt somewhere else, Sin goes to sleep and Spira has it's Calm...
Hence Sin needs the 10 year Calm as much as Spirans do.

Makes a twisted kind of sense, heh ?

Actually, it doesn't. Yu Yevon has no desire to be immortal, or invincible. His sole desire--the desire which defines and limits his entire existence--is the desire (really, the need) to Summon Dream Zanarkand. Sin is destructive, but this has nothing to do with Yu Yevon's reality.

Also, Sin has no "need" to kill--it will not vanish or die if it goes for a protracted period without causing death. However, Sin is inherently destructive, so it will nonetheless cause death when it encounters a human population center. That is the reality of Sin.

It would not matter, by the way, if Sin wiped out humanity on Spira, as far as Yu Yevon is concerned. Yu Yevon in no way needs humanity, or a new Fayth (a new Final Aeon is only needed in case the previous one is destroyed, and the previous Final Aeon had until FFX only been destroyed by another Final Aeon). All Yu Yevon needs is for the continued existence of the original Zanarkand Fayth, as they Dream the city of Dream Zanarkand, making it real.


In a way it does, i ent to sure about the feeding habits of sin, but all sin needs the fayth for is for Yu Yevon to possess once they have destroyed sin, and so all Sin needs the calm for is to become strong again and to become big after possessing the fayth.

The Calm is merely the period of time needed for Sin to once again fully form. It's obviously no accident that Calms follow the successful completion of a Final Summoning; such periods are merely temporary respite for Spira while Sin once again forms. Yu Yevon doesn't "need" the Calm; such a time is merely a consequence of how Sin works.


Just out of curiosity, what is Tidus in X-2, i find it hard to believe he's still a dream since the fayth have stopped dreaming, but by that same token, since they're all just pyreflies on the farplane, if tidus was made to be a real person, how could the souls of the fayth do that? (if this is answered in the perfect ending, just say its in the perfect end, cos i havent seen that end yet)

Unfortunately, FFX-2 does not explain how Tidus was brought back. We're only informed that he has, somehow, returned. The game doesn't even make it completely clear as to whether Tidus is now full human, or merely once again given form through Dreaming.

The Perfect Ending reveals nothing of significance; it is merely an additional scene that follows the Good Ending. In the Perfect Ending, Tidus does contemplate the possibility that he may still be a Dream.


Tidus: Or maybe...I'm still a dream.

Yuna: Wait! So you'll disappear?

There was a short pause.

Tidus: Cherish me, Yuna. And I'll cherish you. All right? We gotta stay together.
That's what we have to do.

He says "maybe," of course, because he himself does not know. And neither does the gamer; we're left to draw our own conclusions. As the end of Dreaming only entails death, and not non-existence, it doesn't really matter; if he is a Dream, I would like to think that the Fayth would wait until he dies naturally before ending their Dream, giving him a full life before a return to the Farplane (which is the same thing that would happen if he is really human). However, based on the themes of FFX and X-2, I'd like to believe that he was given full human life. That having been said, there is no way to know. We can merely speculate as to what path the Fayth took, and to what means they resorted to achieve this end.

[Renmiri]

Yu Yevon is not at all insane, as that implies some sort of a warped will. His situation is much more profound; he cannot move beyond the Summoning. His entire existence has now been defined by the Summoning; he embodies it--he is the Summoning. "Car[ing]" what the Fayth think is a completely irrelevant statement; Yu Yevon cannot care, as that involves a concept outside of the definition that he has become.

I get that part. I just think lust for power makes a better fan fiction story.. :D

I wonder what happened when Yu Yevon was still human, before he cast Sin for the first time. Why did he cast such a cruel monster ? Why was Sin so much above the other summoner's powers ? (Lenne's, the other fayth). Borrowing from classic sci-fi plots I can imagine here he used "the dark side of the force" to create Sin, an extremely powerful but evil Aeon (violence incarnate as Lulu says). and then got trapped into it, loosing all his free will and being just a summoning "robot".

why are you guys so sure Yu Yevon has anything to do with Dream Zanarkand ? Was in Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega guide ?
I got the impression that Bahamut's and the other Aeons fayth, plus the Dream Zanarkand fayth are AGAINST Yu Yevon and Bevelle. They do not agree with the Yevon cult scheme and they provide Aeons for the Spira people to fight Sin. "We are not a tool of Yevon" says the unsent summoner to Yuna, remember ?

Hence my conclusion that Yu Yevon somehow betrayed the Dream Zanarkand fayth, created Sin and got together with Bevelle against their wishes. He leaves Dream Zanarkand alone because, as you say, he has no free will anymore. But when Braska takes him/ Sin there he attacks Dream Zanarkand just as he/Sin attack everything else..

On Sin needing to "feed": Mindless killing is repugnant to me so maybe I'm trying to stretch the game plot a little, but think about it : A person's death creates the most powerful Aeon after Sin, the Final Aeon. Is it too much of a leap to think that the thousands of deaths give strength to Sin ? Perhaps Sin needs that many deaths because those are not offered willingly like the Final Aeon's is.

[Christmas]

I got the impression that Bahamut's and the other Aeons fayth, plus the Dream Zanarkand fayth are AGAINST Yu Yevon and Bevelle. They do not agree with the Yevon cult scheme and they provide Aeons for the Spira people to fight Sin. "We are not a tool of Yevon" says the unsent summoner to Yuna, remember ?

Until later they regretted.


Hence my conclusion that Yu Yevon somehow betrayed the Dream Zanarkand fayth, created Sin and got together with Bevelle against their wishes. He leaves Dream Zanarkand alone because, as you say, he has no free will anymore. But when Braska takes him/ Sin there he attacks Dream Zanarkand just as he/Sin attack everything else..

He leave Dream Zanarkand alone because it is his precious....and yes, he isn't that sane.

Yu Yevon can restrain Sin from attacking his precious Dream Zanarkand until Jecht came along to see his son and Sin Destructive Nature came along too and wreck the city.


On Sin needing to "feed": Mindless killing is repugnant to me so maybe I'm trying to stretch the game plot a little, but think about it : A person's death creates the most powerful Aeon after Sin, the Final Aeon. Is it too much of a leap to think that the thousands of deaths give strength to Sin ? Perhaps Sin needs that many deaths because those are not offered willingly like the Final Aeon's is.

Go talk to Maechen in Mt Gagazet...

[Renmiri]

Until later they regretted.
Fair enough...


He leave Dream Zanarkand alone because it is his precious....and yes, he isn't that sane.

Yu Yevon can restrain Sin from attacking his precious Dream Zanarkand until Jecht came along to see his son and Sin Destructive Nature came along too and wreck the city.
Maybe it is just me but it sounds a bit forced... Yu Yevon is supposed to be almost purely a summomning tool now. But he can control himself every 10 years to leave Zanarkand alone ? Can he or can he not control himself ?


Go talk to Maechen in Mt Gagazet...
Huh ? Are you talking about the part he tells Tidus about Sin's first appearance ? I didn't read anything that would contradict my theory in his speech.

[Masamune·1600]

I get that part. I just think lust for power makes a better fan fiction story.. :D

I wonder what happened when Yu Yevon was still human, before he cast Sin for the first time. Why did he cast such a cruel monster ? Why was Sin so much above the other summoner's powers ? (Lenne's, the other fayth). Borrowing from classic sci-fi plots I can imagine here he used "the dark side of the force" to create Sin, an extremely powerful but evil Aeon (violence incarnate as Lulu says). and then got trapped into it, loosing all his free will and being just a summoning "robot".

why are you guys so sure Yu Yevon has anything to do with Dream Zanarkand ? Was in Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega guide ?
I got the impression that Bahamut's and the other Aeons fayth, plus the Dream Zanarkand fayth are AGAINST Yu Yevon and Bevelle. They do not agree with the Yevon cult scheme and they provide Aeons for the Spira people to fight Sin. "We are not a tool of Yevon" says the unsent summoner to Yuna, remember ?

Hence my conclusion that Yu Yevon somehow betrayed the Dream Zanarkand fayth, created Sin and got together with Bevelle against their wishes. He leaves Dream Zanarkand alone because, as you say, he has no free will anymore. But when Braska takes him/ Sin there he attacks Dream Zanarkand just as he/Sin attack everything else..

On Sin needing to "feed": Mindless killing is repugnant to me so maybe I'm trying to stretch the game plot a little, but think about it : A person's death creates the most powerful Aeon after Sin, the Final Aeon. Is it too much of a leap to think that the thousands of deaths give strength to Sin ? Perhaps Sin needs that many deaths because those are not offered willingly like the Final Aeon's is.

I'm going to be fairly blunt: your theory has no basis in fact. All of your ideas are based upon fundamental misconceptions regarding the FFX mythos; in short, they are contradicted by the very source material you seek to use.

Yu Yevon, as I've tried to make clear, is not a "cruel monster." Cruelty implies intent, which goes beyond what Yu Yevon can posess. He is the embodiment of Summoning, and that is all. There is nothing else, good or bad, there.

Sin should not really be compared to the power of "other Aeons" because Sin is not an Aeon. Sin, as repeatedly demonstrated, is a shell. It is armor that, for whatever reason, is given to a kind of absolute destruction. Sin has nothing to do with the Fayth; it exists to shelter Yu Yevon during the process of Summoning the Dreams of the Fayth. Again, let me reiterate: Sin is not a "powerful, evil Aeon." It is an armor that, as constituted, realizes itself in destruction.

Yu Yevon, without question, Summons Dream Zanarkand. This is directly stated in the game by the Bahamut Fayth.


Fayth: Yes. A war between Zanarkand and Bevelle. Bevelle's machina
assured their victory from the start. Spira had never seen such power.
The summoners of Zanarkand didn't stand a chance. Zanarkand was doomed
to oblivion. That's why we tried to save it-if only in a memory.

Tidus: What did you do?

Fayth: The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the
war... They all became fayth-fayth for the summoning.

Tidus: The summoning... You mean Sin?

Fayth: No. I mean this place. A Zanarkand that never sleeps.

Tidus: What?

Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They
summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

Tidus: The people... What, they're all dreams? Me, too?

Fayth: Yes, you're a dream of the fayth. You, your father, your mother,
everyone. All dreams. And if the fayth stop dreaming...

Yu Yevon's purpose in Summoning Dream Zanarkand, as stated, is to preserve the memory of Zanarkand. It could not win the Machina War with Bevelle, and thus was doomed. However, in Summoning the dream city, a real Zanarkand could continue to exist.

The Fayth, including the Bahamut Fayth, do wish to be free of Yu Yevon's Summoning. They're tired of Dreaming.


Tidus: No! So what if I'm a dream! I..I like being here.

Fayth: We've been dreaming so long...we're tired.

Fayth appeared on the other side.

Fayth: Would you and your father... Would you let us rest?

However, as seen in the above passage, the residents of the orignial Zanarkand who became Fayth for the Summoning were at least initially complicit in the idea.


Zanarkand was doomed
to oblivion. That's why we tried to save it-if only in a memory.

To associate Yu Yevon with Bevelle demonstrates a misunderstanding of the FFX continuity. Yu Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle; he was the leader of Zanarkand, which Bevelle fought. The Yevonite religion is effectively a corrupt power structure, similar to the Glabados Church of Final Fantasy Tactics. With Yevon, the original premise is derivative of an idea revolving around Yu Yevon, but never actually involved the Summoner. This is explained by Maechen.


Maechen:
"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."

Dream Zanarkand itself does not have a given religion, at least so far as we are told. It is merely a continuation of the original Zanarkand. Even Yevon, after all, is a false religion. Yu Yevon most certainly never conspired with Bevelle; he is incapable of human communication. Yu Yevon embodies Sin, and embodies the Summoning. There was no betrayal; Yu Yevon merely Summons perpetually, again as directly and unambiguously stated by the Bahamut Fayth.

Death does not give strength to Sin. The entity retains strength regardless of any encounters with people; it does not grow more powerful after an attack. Moreover, realize that one does not have to "die" to become a Final Aeon; one allows Yunalesca to turn them into a Fayth, which is not exactly the same thing. Also realize that such a comparison is nonsensical to begin with since Sin is not an Aeon, and does not need a Fayth for realization.

Fan fiction often deviates from the established canon and mythology of its source, whether a video game, book, movie, or whatever. If you wish to write according to the parameters you've created, then so be it. However, because a notion appeals to you does not mean that it fits the established mythology of the game--in this case, it clearly doesn't.


Maybe it is just me but it sounds a bit forced... Yu Yevon is supposed to be almost purely a summomning tool now. But he can control himself every 10 years to leave Zanarkand alone ? Can he or can he not control himself ?

Please refer to my earlier explanation of a Calm. It has nothing to do with control; Sin does not cause death during such a period because Sin is being "rebuilt," so to speak. Following a successful Final Summoning, Sin is pierced. However, Yu Yevon simply possesses the new Final Aeon, and over a period of several years again gathers the pyreflies about that Aeon to form a new Sin.


Fayth: Yes. Even if you defeat Sin with the Final Summoning, Yu Yevon
will live. Yu Yevon will join with the Final Aeon. He will transform it
into a new Sin.

Yuna: Yu Yevon merges with the aeon...

Fayth: Then, protected by this new Sin he has created, Yu Yevon
continues the summoning.

If Sin reformed instantaneously, there would be no true period of Calm.

[Captain Maxx Power]

OK, let me try and timeline this so I can understand it better.

1000 years ago: Bevelle and Zanarkand are at War. Zanarkand is losing, badly. The city is blitzed by Bevelle and only a few survivors and their leader, Yu Yevon are left. The citizens of Zanarkand, in order to continue on in some form, agree to become Fayth to summon Dream Zanarkand, a location which is exactly as Zanarkand was before, away from the world. They do so, and Yu Yevon devotes himself to this task. However, to protect himself he creates Sin, an armour that, intentionally or not, has an intrinsic desire to destroy. Yunalesca, the daughter of Yu Yevon and her husband Zaon attempt to stop Sin by creating the "Final Aeon", using her husband as a Fayth so powerful that it causes Yunalesca to die during the summoning process. However, this doesn't work according to plan. While the Fina Aeon defeats Sin by piercing it's armour, Yu Yevon simply possesses this Aeon. I'd assume that Yu Yevon died in this initial onslaught. Using this host body he could continue to summon Zanarkand and maintain Sin. As such the Yevon temple is created to "appease" Yu Yevon, believing that the use of Machina in the war is what caused Sin to appear, using this as a scapegoat. As such the tradition of pilgramidges starts, since no one can figure out how to defeat Sin any other way. If the strongest Aeon ever can't pull it off, what can?

Ten years before FFX: Dream Zanarkand has been around for nearly a thousand years, unaware of Spira and it's true nature. Jecht, whilst out far into sea Bliztball training comes into contact with Sin who happens to be in the neighbourhood. He is "snagged" by it and brought to the mainland, where he meets Braska and Auron and agrees to go on Braska's pilgramidge, initially hoping that finding Sin may enable him to go back home. However, over time his resolve changes, eventually realising that he cannot go back home (presumably the Fayth that create Dream Zanarkand spoke to him like they did Tidus). He becomes the Fayth for Braska, and thusly pierces Sin, becomes possessed and eventually becomes Sin once more.

During FFX: Tidus is taken from Dream Zanarkand after Jecht returns there, having some minor control over Sin. Since Sin is destructive it attacks Dream Zanarkand. Whether or not it is destroyed is up to interpretation. Presumably a new Dream Zanarkand could be created. Events happen in FFX, up until the party learn the truth. So they devise another way to defeat Sin: Destroy the Final Aeon within, allow Yu Yevon to possess the remaining Aeons and destroy them, leaving Yu Yevon without anything to possess, thusly destroying it. No Yu Yevon, no Sin, no Dream Zanarkand or it's peoples. Thusly Tidus loses his link to Spira and is sent to the Farplane like all other souls are.

Is that about right?

[Masamune·1600]

OK, let me try and timeline this so I can understand it better.

From reading over your timeline, I can say that you have it correct for the most part, Maxx.


1000 years ago: Bevelle and Zanarkand are at War. Zanarkand is losing, badly. The city is blitzed by Bevelle and only a few survivors and their leader, Yu Yevon are left.

Bevelle never actually reaches the city prior to the creation of Sin, but, yes, the war is going badly for Zanarkand.


The citizens of Zanarkand, in order to continue on in some form, agree to become Fayth to summon Dream Zanarkand, a location which is exactly as Zanarkand was before, away from the world.

Dream Zanarkand, interestingly, is not identical to the original Zanarkand; Tidus, for example, has never heard of Summoning or Aeons. Presumably, however, it very closely reflects the original, only within limits that wouldn't threaten the system that had been created.

Dream Zanarkand is a physical location in Spira; if one could visit any location on the world map, it might actually be found far out at sea.


They do so, and Yu Yevon devotes himself to this task. However, to protect himself he creates Sin, an armour that, intentionally or not, has an intrinsic desire to destroy.

Exactly.


Yunalesca, the daughter of Yu Yevon and her husband Zaon attempt to stop Sin by creating the "Final Aeon", using her husband as a Fayth so powerful that it causes Yunalesca to die during the summoning process. However, this doesn't work according to plan. While the Fina Aeon defeats Sin by piercing it's armour, Yu Yevon simply possesses this Aeon.

It's difficult to say; that is a valid reading, as Yunalesca arguably could have been interested in truly defeating Sin. Given Yunalesca's vehement defense of the Final Summoning as a tradition, however (she wouldn't even allow the party to attempt to fight Sin without it), as well as the fact that she should have been aware that creating Sin served a "greater purpose," it could also be argued that she was complicit in the perpetuation of Sin (her father, after all). At the same time, though, Sin would also be perpetuated if nothing threatened it. Either way, it seems Yunalesca's primary aim was, as suggested by Maechen, preserving her father's honor.

Also, it seems that the Final Summoning itself doesn't cause death, but rather that the Summoner is killed (ironically) by the Final Aeon, after it is possessed.


Rikku: The pilgrimages have to stop! If they don't, and they get to
Zanarkand... They might defeat Sin. Yunie could...but then she... Yunie
will die, you know? You know, don't you? Summoners journey to get the
Final Aeon. Yuna told you, didn't she? With the Final Aeon, she can beat
Sin. But then...but then... If she calls it, the Final Aeon's going to
kill her! Even if she defeats Sin, it will kill Yunie too, you know!

The implication is that the Aeon, not the process of summoning causes death. This is made clear as Yuna's Aeons attack the party after being possessed by Yu Yevon.


I'd assume that Yu Yevon died in this initial onslaught. Using this host body he could continue to summon Zanarkand and maintain Sin. As such the Yevon temple is created to "appease" Yu Yevon, believing that the use of Machina in the war is what caused Sin to appear, using this as a scapegoat. As such the tradition of pilgramidges starts, since no one can figure out how to defeat Sin any other way. If the strongest Aeon ever can't pull it off, what can?

Pretty much. It's worth noting that the Yevonite Church itself does not hesitate to use machina, suggesting that vilifying it served as a means of controlling the people of Spira.


Ten years before FFX: Dream Zanarkand has been around for nearly a thousand years, unaware of Spira and it's true nature. Jecht, whilst out far into sea Bliztball training comes into contact with Sin who happens to be in the neighbourhood. He is "snagged" by it and brought to the mainland, where he meets Braska and Auron and agrees to go on Braska's pilgramidge, initially hoping that finding Sin may enable him to go back home. However, over time his resolve changes, eventually realising that he cannot go back home (presumably the Fayth that create Dream Zanarkand spoke to him like they did Tidus). He becomes the Fayth for Braska, and thusly pierces Sin, becomes possessed and eventually becomes Sin once more.

Yes.


During FFX: Tidus is taken from Dream Zanarkand after Jecht returns there, having some minor control over Sin. Since Sin is destructive it attacks Dream Zanarkand. Whether or not it is destroyed is up to interpretation. Presumably a new Dream Zanarkand could be created. Events happen in FFX, up until the party learn the truth. So they devise another way to defeat Sin: Destroy the Final Aeon within, allow Yu Yevon to possess the remaining Aeons and destroy them, leaving Yu Yevon without anything to possess, thusly destroying it. No Yu Yevon, no Sin, no Dream Zanarkand or it's peoples. Thusly Tidus loses his link to Spira and is sent to the Farplane like all other souls are.

Is that about right?

Yes. All in all, that's a pretty good overview of the backstory and actual events of FFX.

[Renmiri]

I'm going to be fairly blunt: your theory has no basis in fact. All of your ideas are based upon fundamental misconceptions regarding the FFX mythos
Could be, I'm not trying to refute or reinvent anything. I'm just trying to understand it better. I'm sorry if I am annoying you. Believe it or not, your posts are helping me tremendously, even if we don't agree in every point. I have a much better understanding of the mythology now and I believe my writing can only benefit from this new understanding.

Yu Yevon, without question, Summons Dream Zanarkand. This is directly stated in the game by the Bahamut Fayth.
There is NO mention of Yu Yevon in the quote you posted. It states, like I said myself, that someone summoned Dream Zanarkand and the people from Zanarkand were used as fayth willingly, but it is by no means clear that the summoner was Yu Yevon. Lenne from FFX2 was also a High Summoner from Zanarkand at that exact period in time. IMHO Yu Yevon betrayed his Zanarkand brethrem and did something they didn't want to be a part off: create a violent thing like Sin, hence their long standing efforts to battle Sin, with the Aeons they could create: Bahamut, Ixion, Ifrit...

. Yu Yevon most certainly never conspired with Bevelle; he is incapable of human communication...
Yes, now and for the past 1,000 years. But we know Yu Yevon was human once, we know he had a child, he had free will and all that. At that time - before his transformation - he could have betrayed Zanarkand

Please refer to my earlier explanation of a Calm... Yu Yevon simply possesses the new Final Aeon, and over a period of several years again gathers the pyreflies about that Aeon to form a new Sin.If Sin reformed instantaneously, there would be no true period of Calm.
Sounds good. But where do pireflies come from ? Don't they came from the dead of Spira ?
So if I wrote that Sin "feeds" on the pireflies of the people it kills I would not be far from the truth, would I ?.


PS: If you want to beat me up some more on my misconceptions of the mythos, check out more of my crazy ideas being slapped about by other posters in this thread. I'm moving most of my questions for you there, to avoid boring everyone here. Join me there if you still want to chat about it, OK ?
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=1426028

[Masamune·1600]

Could be, I'm not trying to refute or reinvent anything. I'm just trying to understand it better. I'm sorry if I am annoying you.

Believe it or not, your posts are helping me tremendously, even if we don't agree in every point. I have a much better understanding of the mythology now and I believe my writing can only benefit from this new understanding.

I apologize if my previous response came off a little harsh. I'm glad you feel that my advice can help.



I granted this point already. What I question is what was Yu Yevon before he became the "thing" that he is now. Why did he submit himself to being it ? Why did he cast Sin ? Didn't he - the Yu Yevon that was still human - know that like Vegnagun, his Sin would do a lot more harm than good ?

Unfortunately, it's impossible to know what Yu Yevon was before he "became" Sin. All we're really told is that he was "peerless" as a Summoner...


Fayth: Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago. He was peerless. Yet now
he lives for one purpose: only to summon. He is neither good, nor evil.
He is awake, yet he dreams. But...maybe not forever.

...and that he was the leader of Zanarkand (the original city). Here, you can elaborate without fear of contradicting the game (although there's no evidence to support ideas, either--we're just not told enough), although the implication is that Yu Yevon was genuinely interested in the "survival" of Zanarkand.



OK, now I understand. I just question the need for destruction, not because it doesn't make sense but because it bothers me, the senseless , mindless killing, with no point, not even an evil poit to it like greed, lust for power, revenge, etc..

It's meant to be more tragic, I think, as Yu Yevon isn't so much a villain as an almost accidental perpetrator of a process that, for the good of humanity, must end.



There is NO mention of Yu Yevon in the quote below, the one you posted. Like I said, the people from Zanarkand did it, willingly, but it is by no means clear that they were working with Yu Yevon. IMHO he betrayed them and did something they didn't want to be a part off, hence their long standing efforts to kill Sin

Yu Yevon would have necessarily been involved in the notion, not simply because he was the leader of Zanarkand, but because he was the one who actually carried out the Summoning of Dream Zanarkand. In a sense, the only way he could have betrayed the Fayth was by failing to summon--which, rather quickly, became an impossibility.


Fayth: Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago. He was peerless. Yet now
he lives for one purpose: only to summon. He is neither good, nor evil.
He is awake, yet he dreams. But...maybe not forever.

The lines regarding wakefulness and dreaming also implies complicity within the manifestation of Dream Zanarkand. Again, given that Yu Yevon is bound up completely within the Summoning, he cannot "betray" the original plan, although he also becomes incapable of letting it go. Basically, the mere fact that Yu Yevon is and always has been the summoner...


Yuna: The fayth said it's pointless to keep dreaming. The dream will
disappear, he said. What did he mean? And what is it that Yu Yevon is
summoning from within Sin?

Tidus: The dream of the fayth.

...tells one that he was directly involved with the original notion of perpetuating Zanarkand.



Not sure it was Yu Yevon. Someone summoned Dream Zanarkand and all the fayth plus this someone did it because they wished "to preserve the memory.."

Refer to the above, especially the final dialogue segment involving Tidus and Yuna. It is flatly stated that Yu Yevon is summoning the Dream of the Fayth--in other words, Dream Zanarkand and all who live there. Also of note is that the Dream unravels specifically when Yu Yevon is destroyed.



OK now I believe you missed something of waht Maechen and Yunalesca said. Bevelle had NO REASON to glorify Yu Yevon, their enemy and the killer of their people. Bevelle could have just as well made a religion where Yu Yevon was the "Demon" who brought Sin to Spira (which is closer to the truth, actually) and put one of their Maesters as God or Sacred Teacher.

Except this is not what Maechen says.



Maechen:
"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."

It's completely possible that the Yevon (the political entity) could have demonized Yu Yevon, rather than revering him. This is not, however, what happened. Moreover, there are explicit reasons for Yevon's course of action: the initial reverence may have (as suggested by Maechen) involved fear of Yu Yevon, while creating an object of worship with a convenient code for atonement allowed it to effectively manipulate and control the people of Spira. While Yu Yevon the summoner has nothing to do with a lust for power, such is not the case for his namesake organization (that, just to be clear, has nothing to really do with him).



What I understood from Maechen, Mikka and Yunalesca is that Bevelle was forced into gloryfying Yu Yevon by Yu Yevon himself (before he turned into a thingy ?) or, as Maechen insinuates, by Yunalesca bent on preserving her father's honorable name in spite of him joining the mass murder business..

This has to do with a misunderstanding of the backstory continuity. Yu Yevon himself would have never had any contact with Bevelle. Sin destroyed the original Zanarkand before Bevelle arrived at the city. Since Sin predates contact with Bevelle, we know that Yu Yevon had "become" Sin before he could have spoken with Bevelle. And, once he became Sin, Yu Yevon lost the ability to communicate with anything, really.

What Yu Yevon "turned into" was what one might call the physical manifestation of his soul. After the original Sin was pierced by Yunalesca's Final Aeon, Yu Yevon's physical body would have been lost, and said "soul" would have possessed that which was once Zaon.

As far as Yunalesca is concerned, her primary aim seems to have been the preservation of her father's honor. It's entirely possible that she intended for events to follow the course that they did, but this does not implicate Yu Yevon.


Not true. Dream Zanarkand has no Aeons, no fayth and no monsters, as all is new to Tidus and he doesn't even have a sword when he starts the game, being a citizen of Dream Zanarkand. We know the Zanarkand of the fayth had 2 summoners at least: Lenne and Yu Yevon and it had fayth or at least people in it knew that fayth existed.
Dream Zanarkand is quite different from Spira's Zanarkand if you pay attention.

There are two ideas, which are not mutually exclusive, which account for such change. This change is obvious; one might also note that Yevon Dome seems to have been replaced by the Blitzball stadium, and so on.

First, realize that Dream Zanarkand exists in dynamic time; in other words, that the city exists within time, meaning the population is not locked in stasis. People (Dreams) are born, and people die. There is a certain overarching reality that must be maintained; otherwise, Dream Zanarkand does not serve its original purpose. However, as Dream Zanarkand moves through time, it likely evolves--within very rigidly defined limits.

Also, one must consider that "Summoning" would be a threat to the preservation of the system--after all, the city and the people themselves are being summoned. Likely, the city as originally remembered was intentionally Dreamt without Summoning--this prevents the city from moving "beyond control," while also eliminating a reminder of the sorrowful events that forced the realization of Dream Zanarkand in the first place.

Dream Zanarkand is a continuation of Zanarkand, even if not in an exactly literal sense, because such is what we are told.



Yes, now and for the past 1,000 years. But we know Yu Yevon was human once, we know he had a child, he had free will and all that. At that time - before his transformation - he could have betrayed Zanarkand

Yu Yevon once had free will, and had a child, but he did not betray Zanarkand. It was a collective decision to preserve the city in its Dream form, and Yu Yevon carried this out. He carries it out even in the present.



Agreed. I'm still confused as to why Yu Yevon needs a final Aeon's fayth if Sin is not an Aeon

Initially, he did not need a Final Aeon. He himself was the physical anchor for Sin. However, after being pierced by Yunalesca's Final Aeon, his physical body would have been destroyed. He thus needs a new Aeon to act as the foundation for Sin (which, in turn, exists to armor Yu Yevon), while "protecting" Yu Yevon's "soul" in case Sin is again pierced. Once a Final Aeon pierces Sin, he can possess that new Final Aeon, reform Sin, and begin the pattern again. In this way, Sin is perpetuated.


My motivation to be puzzling so much about this issue is my Fan Fiction piece. But I don't want to make FFX fit into my fiction. Just the opposite: I want to understand FFX better to better write my fan fiction. If I'm wrong, and what I think is happening in FFX is not what is in the game I want to know and I want to fix it in my writtings.

In that case, it might be best to focus on something that allows for creativity, yet doesn't conflict with the game. You might consider writing about Zanarkand during the Machina War, and give Yu Yevon a personality, force him to make military and political decisions, and finally lead him to the fateful decision of attempting to preserve Zanarkand in Dream form. This is just one example; anything can work in theory, so long as it adheres to the overriding plot points of FFX. If you wish to write about Sin for your fan fiction piece, you might detail where it goes and what it attacks, and follow the pilgrimage of a past High Summoner. It's up to you.


I said it very clearly in my last post that I know Yu Yevon is, and has been for the past 1,000 years, a "thing" incapable of motivation. I just write some motivation for him in my FF because I think it is more "dramatic". In my view it is an acceptable deviation of the mythology, just to add more dramatic tension. But I certainly don't want to reinvent the entire FFX mythology. I just want to understand it better so I can write better about it

I suppose you might consider creating asides revealing the disembodied feelings of Yu Yevon--he cannot do or change anything, but somewhere, he has an opinion on what is happening. From there, you could assign emotions (sorrow, excitement, whatever), so long as it remains that such feelings are irrelevant. This would be, I think, a very minor deviation.


Sounds good. But where do pireflies come from ? Don't they came from the dead of Spira ?
So if I wrote that Sin "feeds" on the pireflies of the people it kills I would not be far from the truth, would I ?.

Pyreflies are, for the most part, unexplained. In FFX we are told...


Maechen:
"Ahem!"
"They may be called "pyreflies" but they aren't really "flies", you see."
"They're those lights you see whenever a fiend dies."
"The little fellows are responsible for a few fantastic phenomena."
"Visions of the past, spheres, fiends--these are all the pyreflies' doing."
"In fact..."
"pyreflies have something to do with aeons, too."
"The dreams of the fayth reach through the spirit of the summoner..."
"And that which is unreal becomes real for all to see!"
"Or maybe not. Who knows?
"And that, as they say, is that."

...while FFX-2 states


Glossary of Spira: -Pyreflies-
A type of matter that drifts throughout Spira via its waterways. Despite the name, pyreflies are not insects and have no physical form. Pyreflies are known to react with our thoughts and preserve them as illusions. They are related to fiends, aeons, and even Sin, but exactly how remains unclear.

The unfortunate reality of pyreflies is that they are not very well explained. These were some of my conclusions on pyreflies from earlier in the thread.


...they are left (perhaps deliberately) ambiguous. Despite the esoteric presentation of the concept, however, much can be inferred using what we do know.

A more accurate way to describe pyreflies (as opposed to the definition), based on what we see in-game, in both X and X-2, would be that they "react with our thoughts and" give them physical form. Basically, pyreflies seem to be able to coalesce into a physical entity based on the thoughts or spirit from which the congealed form is derived. The "Dreams" living in Dream Zanarkand (and the city itself), for example, are likely wholly comprised of pyreflies.

An Aeon, then, would receive its physical form from pyreflies (explaining why an Aeon's physical form dissolves to pyreflies when defeated), though effectively be "defined" by the "dream" of the fayth be utilized by the Summoner. As a result, Jecht (or, rather, Braska's Final Aeon) would have a definite physical form, created from pyreflies.

In the tradition originally established by Yunalesca, the (current) Final Aeon is used to "defeat" Sin. This actually perpetuates Sin, however, because Yu Yevon can possess the Final Aeon, which takes on one of Yu Yevon's original roles. Yu Yevon would have been the physical "anchor" for the first Sin; in other words, he was the point around which all the pyreflies would have coalesced to form Sin.

Pyreflies, it seems, are a kind of intangible matter that react with memories and emotions, and give them a physical reality. They therefore can be understood to comprise and reveal almost all that is supernatural.

Unfortunately, there is no way to know the origin of pyreflies; they seem to exist mainly as a very complicated plot element. Given the existence of the Farplane (the afterlife of the world of FFX), I suspect (and this is a personal opinion--it is in no way canonical) that they're somehow derivative. Beyond that, however, much is left to speculation.

Sin still, however, does not feed on the pyreflies of the people it kills; the period when it gathers pyreflies to reform is the Calm--the period when there are no Sin attacks.

[Renmiri]

I apologize if my previous response came off a little harsh. I'm glad you feel that my advice can help.
Not harsh, don't worry about it. Your advice helps a lot.

It's meant to be more tragic, I think, as Yu Yevon isn't so much a villain as an almost accidental perpetrator of a process that, for the good of humanity, must end.
You could be right but an accidental mass murderer makes for bad fan fiction… At least is not what I like to write about.

Refer to the .. the final dialogue segment involving Tidus and Yuna. It is flatly stated that Yu Yevon is summoning the Dream of the Fayth--in other words, Dream Zanarkand and all who live there. Also of note is that the Dream unravels specifically when Yu Yevon is destroyed.
Interesting quote from them. I had missed that one. Does this mean Sin is an integral part of Dream Zanarkand's summoning ? Was Dream Zanarkand the reason for Sin ?
:kaocheer:
Good Fan fiction vibes in here: the fayth could be feeling the conflict between wishing to preserve their memories and dreams and being responsible for so much carnage… I can write pages on that!

there are explicit reasons for Yevon's Church course of action: the initial reverence may have (as suggested by Maechen) involved fear of Yu Yevon, while creating an object of worship with a convenient code for atonement allowed it to effectively manipulate and control the people of Spira...
We agree 100% on this except for the origin of the idea. You say

Except this is not what Maechen says.
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
So you are saying that Bevelle came with the idea of glorifying Yu Yevon all on it's own ? That is not what I read in the quote.

When I read It was to quell his wrath that they revered him I read that he was wrathful at one time and that he himself (or at least someone claiming to speak for him - Yunalesca) demanded that people from Bevelle revered him

Sin destroyed the original Zanarkand before Bevelle arrived at the city. Since Sin predates contact with Bevelle, we know that Yu Yevon had "become" Sin before he could have spoken with Bevelle. And, once he became Sin, Yu Yevon lost the ability to communicate with anything, really.
Interesting. Yes, that would prevent Bevelle and Yu Yevon from talking after Sin appeared.
But wasn't Yuna's Zanarkand destroyed by Bevelle's bombing ? Where did you get it that it was Sin who destroyed all ?

one must consider that "Summoning" would be a threat to the preservation of the system--after all, the city and the people themselves are being summoned
Great point!

In that case, it might be best to focus on.. Zanarkand during the Machina War, and give Yu Yevon a personality...

Pyreflies are, for the most part, unexplained...Sin still, however, does not feed on the pyreflies of the people it kills; the period when it gathers pyreflies to reform is the Calm--the period when there are no Sin attacks
Great minds think alike! I have 3 stories out already with the plot you describe. I made the mysterious pireflies a big part of my background story arch. The thing you say about Sin not colecting them immediately matches perfectly with some of my imagined uses for them. I still have to review the tales below after all the new info you presented me, but it seems I can use most of it.:D

http://www.fanfiction.net/~renmiri
Here are the first paragraphs for my 1,000 years ago chapter (story #2). It shows how pireflies get into the story

Spira's Modern History: 1,000 years ago
Digging through long lost Galaxy League ruins Tar-Sec discovers Spira's h-pirefly records. Astonished he reads about a planet where it's people release small spheres of pure magic energy when they die, energy that can be harnessed and used to create powerful magic weapons or to concoct powerful magic potions. Unconvinced that such a thing would exist and remain hidden for 3,000 years he almost throws the records away but he stumbles on a locked box. When he opens it several tiny spheres of light float away leaving a strange gun and a vial of amber fluid on the bottom of the box....

"Holy /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif! This thing looks like a supernova on a bullet!" he thinks to himself... This will be worth tons of gil!" he thinks amazed. He gathers all the records, the gun and the vial of liquid and reloads the gun. Aiming at the place the records were found he shoots another "supernova" bullet and obliterates all remaining clues to his treasure. Now he is the only one who will ever know about it, Tar-Sec thinks smugly.

Six months later... Tar-Sec's spaceship arrives at the outskirts of Spira's solar system. It was the first time in 3,000 years that a spaceship crossed that remote region of space.

Tar-Sec and his team discuss their approach at the ship's briefing room. Despite the ship's captains wishes they couldn't just kill all in Spira.

"The records are quite clear: only Spira's humanoid species can create the pireflies we need. If we kill all now there will be no more pireflies after the ones we harvest today" said the ship's science officer
".. We need to find some local who is willing to work for us. Someone who can tend the pirefly producing operation" said Tar-Sec

"Well, the only intelligent species there are humanoid themselves. Would a humanoid agree to betray his fellow humanoids ?" asks the ship's science officer...

"Oh, we can find a way to persuade them" said the captain smiling cruelly

"Precisely! I will tell the strongest clans we will kill them if they don't agree to supply us with their weakest and I'm sure we will get a great farm hand down there" said Tar-Sec smiling...(Guess who Tar-Sec contacted ? Zanarkand and Bevelle, BEvelle accepted, Zanarkand refused, hence the war... )

[Masamune·1600]

Interesting quote from them. I had missed that one. Does this mean Sin is an integral part of Dream Zanarkand's summoning ? Was Dream Zanarkand the reason for Sin ?

In a sense. Sin really is an armor; it ostensibly would prevent anything from interrupting Yu Yevon while Summoning the Dreams of the Fayth.


We agree 100% on this except for the origin of the idea. You say


Except this is not what Maechen says.
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."

So you are saying that Bevelle came with the idea of glorifying Yu Yevon all on it's own ? That is not what I read in the quote.

When I read It was to quell his wrath that they revered him I read that he was wrathful at one time and that he himself (or at least someone claiming to speak for him - Yunalesca) demanded that people from Bevelle revered him


Sin destroyed the original Zanarkand before Bevelle arrived at the city. Since Sin predates contact with Bevelle, we know that Yu Yevon had "become" Sin before he could have spoken with Bevelle. And, once he became Sin, Yu Yevon lost the ability to communicate with anything, really.

Interesting. Yes, that would prevent Bevelle and Yu Yevon from talking after Sin appeared.
But wasn't Yuna's Zanarkand destroyed by Bevelle's bombing ? Where did you get it that it was Sin who destroyed all ?

Another explanation by Maechen involves the destruction of Zanarkand; in the passage, Maechen shows that Bevelle arrived at Zanarkand after Sin appeared, and later discovered the city already destroyed.


Maechen:
"There is a legend, you know."
"Just before the horrible Sin appeared..."
"a terrible war raged between Bevelle and Zanarkand."
"When the armies of Bevelle attacked Mount Gagazet, they heard a song echoing across the snowy slopes."
""'Tis a song from an otherworld," they said. The soldiers panicked and ran."
"And then, as if to pursue the retreating armies, Sin appeared!"
"Some time later, scouts from Bevelle braved the mountain."
"On the other side, they witnessed the ruins that had been Zanarkand."
"The city destroyed. Not a single soul left standing. Gone!"
"In its place, a multitude of the fayth had gathered on Gagazet."
"They were singing a song."
"It's the song we now call the "Hymn of the Fayth.""
"And that, as they say, is that."
"Well...maybe not all of it."

This extends naturally into Maechen's remarks on the original Final Summoning. Following the above chain of events, "rumors flew in Bevelle [concerning the appearance of Sin]." As it became known that Sin was Yu Yevon, they (Bevelle) understandably reacted with fear.

Also of note, regarding Maechen's remarks, is that the Hymn of the Fayth was first heard as Bevelle advanced on Gagazet. As the Fayth are later discovered singing this hymn, we know that the Fayth (and therefore the Dreaming) also began prior to Bevelle reaching the ruins of Zanarkand (once again consistent with the established continuity of FFX).

[Renmiri]

In a sense. Sin really is an armor; it ostensibly would prevent anything from interrupting Yu Yevon while Summoning the Dreams of the Fayth.

Another explanation by Maechen involves the destruction of Zanarkand; in the passage, Maechen shows that Bevelle arrived at Zanarkand after Sin appeared, and later discovered the city already destroyed.

This extends naturally into Maechen's remarks on the original Final Summoning. Following the above chain of events, "rumors flew in Bevelle [concerning the appearance of Sin]." As it became known that Sin was Yu Yevon, they (Bevelle) understandably reacted with fear.

Also of note, regarding Maechen's remarks, is that the Hymn of the Fayth was first heard as Bevelle advanced on Gagazet. As the Fayth are later discovered singing this hymn, we know that the Fayth (and therefore the Dreaming) also began prior to Bevelle reaching the ruins of Zanarkand (once again consistent with the established continuity of FFX).

Great stuff, thanks!

Yes, you are correct, Bevelle would not have talked to Yu Yevon. That still leaves Yunalesca though. She may have been the one to come up with the demand to worship her father's name.
Darn it, lots of rewrites needed in my FF, as I had Yu Yevon conscious and human after Zanarkand died.. My Yunalesca story is shot!!! :mad2:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2687313/1/

BTW, since you seem to know so much, do you know who is Pennance and how does he fit in all this ? He is the guy who shows up after the battle with Jecht in FFX international version

[Masamune·1600]

BTW, since you seem to know so much, do you know who is Pennance and how does he fit in all this ? He is the guy who shows up after the battle with Jecht in FFX international version

Penance, as far as I can tell, doesn't really have any bearing on the plot. It was only added in for the PAL/International versions of the game, and its existence goes unrecognized once it is defeated--the game cuts back to the airship, and there is no discussion of the epic battle. In short, Penance seems to exist merely as a challenge: it is far more difficult than Nemesis (the hardest boss in the NTSC-U/C version of the game), and its appearance neither clarifies nor expands any real plot point.

[Renmiri]

Penance, as far as I can tell, doesn't really have any bearing on the plot

Great, thanks!

BTW, I have added all the imput from this thread to my "prequel" to FFX on Fan Fiction.net
If you want to check it out, it's at
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2693791/1/

In it I make Bevelle harvest Spira's pirefly energy because an alien ship is threatening them. The story would work pretty well without the alien ship bit but I thought that having Bevelle starting a war just to better mine their world's best energy source - pireflies - and then using religion to keep it's citizens content hit too close to home, if you get my drift..
(If you don't get it just switch "Pirefly energy" with "Oil" and voila!)
:D