All could've been prevented

[Moon Rabbits]

Near the end of disc 3 when Odine talks of the "Junction Ellone Machine" he builds that Ultimecia uses to come back and possess Edea.

Squall and Co. could just destroy it in the past and undo all of Ultimecia's plans in the future...instead of travelling into the future to kill her. Odine couldn't put up much of a fight if he wanted to protect it...

[Slade]

I don't think he had started building it yet. I can't really remember though. Besides, the story would be cut short :D

[Moon Rabbits]

I know. I like the rest. But FF8 really needs some things fixed. and its my favourite. so SQUARE PLEASE. AGAINST THE WISHES OF SO MANY REMAKE IT.

[Christmas]

Running away won't solve the problem.

[Moon Rabbits]

Running away won't solve the problem.

What? Who's running away. Im just saying Odine doesnt need to finish the project and it'll prevent everything. Fuck up time but prevent all.

[Christmas]

You need to face the problem itself as SeeD.


Squall: Both Garden and SeeD were your ideas. Garden trains SeeDs.
SeeDs are trained to defeat the sorceress.


Zell: Yeah, and that Ultimecia! We can't let that sorceress from the
future mess up our world! Let's go kick her ass! We're SeeDs! We're
here to destroy the sorceress, right!!!?


Odine: There is only one way to defeat
Ultimecia. You must kill her in ze future.

Reflect on all those stuffs about destiny and fate throughout the game. This came along on how the idea of SeeD manage to come about and the reunion of the childhood friends. Not forgetting continuing a love story left unfinished by the earlier generations.

[Sir Bahamut]

In FF8, fate rules, and everything points toward the fact that in FF8, time is set in stone. That means that if Ultimecia exists in the future and is using the Junction Machine Ellone, simply destroying it won't change anything. If they destroyed it, that would simply have been a natural part of the history leading up to Ultimecias rise to power. It would eventually have been rebuilt later anyway!

So that wouldn't help at all...

[boys from the dwarf]

me and FE have already started threads about why they dont just destroy the machine to end it all. the simple fact is the game would be toally boring and end without any kind of last boss or interesting time compression and cool ending.
edit: ive just realized something else. if they destroyed it now it would mean what happened with ultimecia possesing everyone will never have happened and the seems as there was already a time loop destroying the time loop by destroying the machine could probly just end up with a big confusion in time and everything being destroyed.the only way it would work is travelling to the future. in simple form, mormally destroying the machine would work but due to a time loop in the game destroying the machine would probbably destroy everything else.

[Sir Bahamut]

me and FE have already started threads about why they dont just destroy the machine to end it all. the simple fact is the game would be toally boring and end without any kind of last boss or interesting time compression and cool ending.

Perhaps. But the simple AND LOGICAL fact is that time is set in stone in FF8, hence destorying it won't help a shred, and since Odine already knows a great deal about time and time compression, he clearly would know as much as to know that destroying it won't help!

For a more indepth account on the role of time, timeloops and fate in FF8, please read the "Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ" found here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

It explains why and in what way time is set in stone, thus explaining why destroying the machine wouldn't do anything (it wouldn't destroy time or anything like that, it just wouldm't do anything helpful for Squall and Co, save leaving them with a mess to tidy up!).

[yunafan11]

oh well. square has its ways.

[Skyblade]

My thoughts on fate aside (it's a damned stupid concept), I don't believe they should have destroyed the machine. It would have been pointless. The machine is just a tool. Good, evil, it can be used for both. Destroying it would not stop the evil. It might set it back, but it wouldn't stop it. You've all seen Return of the King, haven't you? Remember when Gimli said "Let him stay there, let him rot! Why should we care?" It is a similar attitude. You may have quieted things down, but the enemy is by no means defeated. If you hope to stop evil, you must strike at the heart of the evil itself. Treat the disease, not the symptoms. Until she is defeated, Ulti will still be out there. And destroying one machine won't be enough to stop her.

[Future Esthar]

Alright,I already know it is impossible to refute the fact that Ulti uses a machine created by Odine to possess Edea(1).
But it is impossible to prove either

So my theory on Odine still be true.
The fact that we can´t refute 1 just shows the doctor is simple genious.
He commits a perfect crime.

[Jessweeee♪]

Or just kill Odine before he gets to researching this stuff...and maybe killing off Ellone for good measure.

[Future Esthar]

Or they could get to the past during time compression and prevent the machine to be created(never thought of that.Curious).

[Noj_R]

My thoughts on fate aside (it's a damned stupid concept), I don't believe they should have destroyed the machine. It would have been pointless. The machine is just a tool. Good, evil, it can be used for both. Destroying it would not stop the evil. It might set it back, but it wouldn't stop it. You've all seen Return of the King, haven't you? Remember when Gimli said "Let him stay there, let him rot! Why should we care?" It is a similar attitude. You may have quieted things down, but the enemy is by no means defeated. If you hope to stop evil, you must strike at the heart of the evil itself. Treat the disease, not the symptoms. Until she is defeated, Ulti will still be out there. And destroying one machine won't be enough to stop her.

I agree completely. Ultimecia was clearly obsessed with achieving time compression. Destroying the machine would only stall Ulti, not stop her. Things would stay as they were only Ulti would have to find an alternative solution...Maybe one worst than JME...

Great theory Skyblade! :D

Another thing, Odine said " You must kill Ultimecia in ze future ", Squall and co. HAD to kill her in the future, there was no alternative.

[blackmage_nuke]

Because if they destroyed the machine, then they would not have gone into the past to destroy it, but if they didnt go back in time it woulnt be destroyed, but if it was made they would have gone to destroy it, but if it was destroyed then they wouldnt have gone to destroy it, but if it wasnt destroyed they wouldnt have gone to destroy it...

and i think a time and space continuum/time paradox (i get the 2 confused) is alot wose than time compression
I think causing the universe to collapse was the last thing they wanted to do

[Future Esthar]

I know it would be refuted.Just post it as alternative.

[Skyblade]

I agree completely. Ultimecia was clearly obsessed with achieving time compression. Destroying the machine would only stall Ulti, not stop her. Things would stay as they were only Ulti would have to find an alternative solution...Maybe one worst than JME...

Great theory Skyblade! :D

Thanks for the support.

Another thing that I would like to point out is this: Why do you all think that Odine or Odine's work is the cause of all this? Think for a moment, people. Odine was already a chief scientist during the flashbacks. How old must the guy be now? Sure, he may have done the groundwork, and he was probably the first to investigate Ellone, but so what? Ulti's time was far in the future, remember? As Odine said, the machine was nothing now, but in Ulti's time it was impressive. How much must have been done, and by how many different scientists? It's a lot easier to reproduce science than it is to develop it in the first place. Destroying the basic machine and even killing Ellone wouldn't prevent it from being reconstructed or developed further in the next hundred years or more. If one person can have this power, so can others.

Seriously, taking the quick and easy way out doesn't usually work.

[Noj_R]

Thanks for the support.

Another thing that I would like to point out is this: Why do you all think that Odine or Odine's work is the cause of all this? Think for a moment, people. Odine was already a chief scientist during the flashbacks. How old must the guy be now? Sure, he may have done the groundwork, and he was probably the first to investigate Ellone, but so what? Ulti's time was far in the future, remember? As Odine said, the machine was nothing now, but in Ulti's time it was impressive. How much must have been done, and by how many different scientists? It's a lot easier to reproduce science than it is to develop it in the first place. Destroying the basic machine and even killing Ellone wouldn't prevent it from being reconstructed or developed further in the next hundred years or more. If one person can have this power, so can others.

Seriously, taking the quick and easy way out doesn't usually work.

Once again, you nail it. :)

[boys from the dwarf]

either its set in stone or its my crazy doctor who theory. i like mine because its more interesting.

[Future Esthar]

what´s your crazy doctor theory?

[Sir Bahamut]

Because if they destroyed the machine, then they would not have gone into the past to destroy it, but if they didnt go back in time it woulnt be destroyed, but if it was made they would have gone to destroy it, but if it was destroyed then they wouldnt have gone to destroy it, but if it wasnt destroyed they wouldnt have gone to destroy it...

and i think a time and space continuum/time paradox (i get the 2 confused) is alot wose than time compression
I think causing the universe to collapse was the last thing they wanted to do

This is likely that last thing that would happen if they destroyed the machine, as I already explained above, and as has been further embellished upon afterwards.

To sum up things a bit here, there are two answers as to why destroying the machine wouldn't work:

1) If time is set in stone and fate exists in FF8, then destroying it wouldn't help, as that would have been one of the set in stone events leading to Ultimecias acquisition of the Junction Machine Ellone. Something (unspecified exactly what, but it doesn't matter, the point is that something DOES happen) will happen which causes the machine to be built again and expanded upon until Ultimecia gets it.

2) If time is NOT set in stone and fate does not exist in FF8, like Skyblade believes, then Skyblades explanations are probably the best ones to give. To add here, as mentioned many times now, destroying it would probably not cause a paradox, but it doesn't really matter, because they never do destroy it...

Personally, option 1 is the most plausible and logical one, simply because FF8 is saturated with the concept of fate (heck, "Liberi Fatali" itself means "Children of Fate"!). However, I respect people like Skyblade who hold the other position.

[boys from the dwarf]

what´s your crazy doctor theory?
my crazy doctor who style theory is in my post near the start of the thread where i edited it.

[SeeDRankLou]

Or, you might think of it this way. Ellone tried to change the past with her powers, and finally realized that what she was attempting to do was impossible, you can't change the past. What I find truly interesting about this story is that the beginning and the end happen at the same moment. Edea absorbing Ultimecia's power is both the beginning and the end of the important events of this story. The events of this story merely happen out of chronological order. In the present of this story, Ultimecia being defeated happens in the past (or last bit of the fight at least). You cannot change the past, and therefore, no matter what you might do, Ultimecia will perform time compression, and she will be defeated. It has already happened.

[Skyblade]

Actually, the paradox idea has quite a bit going for it. For a moment, compare it to the Terminator movies. Anyone who has seen through to Terminator 3 knows that no matter what the good guys do, Judgement Day still happens, and the machines still rise to power. It is said that Judgement Day is "inevitible". Why is that? Is it because of fate? Not at all. Remember, the time machine was created by the machines, not by humans. If you defeated the machines, where would the time machine come from? Though not as obvious of a parrallel, if you defeated Junction Machine Ellone, and Ultimecia didn't come through to the past, how would Squall and company have known they needed to destroy JME? They only know to destroy it because of Ulti's interference with the past. If the stop Ulti's interference, they also eliminate the reason they stopped here interference, which means they wouldn't have stopped her, but then... It's a paradox. Of course, if you believe in a set timeline and fate, it doesn't work. But, if you hold different beliefs, then a paradox could indeed be the cause.

I prefer my previous explanation (the one paradox already in the game is enough for me, no need to add another one), but this argument is definitely valid.

[Sir Bahamut]

In other words, they couldn't destroy it because it would create a paradox? Ie. time forces people to avoid paradoxes? Sounds suspiciously like a weaker version of fate if you ask me, but anyway...

[SeeDRankLou]

That's not fate, it's balance. Cause and effect, just that you are seeing the effect before the cause. One thing that exists because of another. The time machine was created by the machines. And thus the terminators are in the past. What makes judgement day happen isn't clear, but whatever happens happens, because judement day happened, the machines rose, time machines were invented by the machines, and here are the terminators. So, as long as the terminator is there in the past, judgement day happens. The former does not exist without the later. Same with time compression. Edea absorbed Ultimecia's power, and that couldn't not have been possible without Time Compression and Ultimecia's defeat. And so, time compression will happen because Edea absorbing Ultimecia has already happened. The later does not exist without the former, and since the later has already happened the former must happen or the later does not exist. And since the later does exist, so does the former.

[Shin Gouken]

Actually, the paradox idea has quite a bit going for it. For a moment, compare it to the Terminator movies. Anyone who has seen through to Terminator 3 knows that no matter what the good guys do, Judgement Day still happens, and the machines still rise to power. It is said that Judgement Day is "inevitible". Why is that? Is it because of fate? Not at all. Remember, the time machine was created by the machines, not by humans. If you defeated the machines, where would the time machine come from? Though not as obvious of a parrallel, if you defeated Junction Machine Ellone, and Ultimecia didn't come through to the past, how would Squall and company have known they needed to destroy JME? They only know to destroy it because of Ulti's interference with the past. If the stop Ulti's interference, they also eliminate the reason they stopped here interference, which means they wouldn't have stopped her, but then... It's a paradox. Of course, if you believe in a set timeline and fate, it doesn't work. But, if you hold different beliefs, then a paradox could indeed be the cause.

I prefer my previous explanation (the one paradox already in the game is enough for me, no need to add another one), but this argument is definitely valid.


I didn't even think about that when i watched T3. I wonder why they didn't explain it. Shouldn't this of caused a time paradox?

[Sir Bahamut]

Same with time compression. Edea absorbed Ultimecia's power, and that couldn't not have been possible without Time Compression and Ultimecia's defeat. And so, time compression will happen because Edea absorbing Ultimecia has already happened. The later does not exist without the former, and since the later has already happened the former must happen or the later does not exist. And since the later does exist, so does the former.

...in other words: they can't destroy the Junction Machine Ellone because those events are set in stone, which is exactly what I said =P

Granted, you don't have to have fate, or postulate that ALL of time is set in stone (you could just say that those events that have already happened are set in stone forever, but that of course leads to questions about what happens you travel back in time....alternate universe?), but what you're saying is exactly the same explanation I give, just limited in scope...

[Noj_R]

Actually, the paradox idea has quite a bit going for it. For a moment, compare it to the Terminator movies. Anyone who has seen through to Terminator 3 knows that no matter what the good guys do, Judgement Day still happens, and the machines still rise to power. It is said that Judgement Day is "inevitible". Why is that? Is it because of fate? Not at all. Remember, the time machine was created by the machines, not by humans. If you defeated the machines, where would the time machine come from? Though not as obvious of a parrallel, if you defeated Junction Machine Ellone, and Ultimecia didn't come through to the past, how would Squall and company have known they needed to destroy JME? They only know to destroy it because of Ulti's interference with the past. If the stop Ulti's interference, they also eliminate the reason they stopped here interference, which means they wouldn't have stopped her, but then... It's a paradox. Of course, if you believe in a set timeline and fate, it doesn't work. But, if you hold different beliefs, then a paradox could indeed be the cause.

I prefer my previous explanation (the one paradox already in the game is enough for me, no need to add another one), but this argument is definitely valid.

The Terminator 3 example is great. Just like in the movie, they destroyed SkyNet but that didnt stop the robots from taking over, they found another way. Even if the JME was destroyed ( it probably wasnt even built yet ), that wouldnt stop Ultimecai from achieving her goal.

Dr Odine would probably know better than anyone on how to beat an evil sorceress. But his ONLY choice was to send Squall and co. to the past. No alternatives...

[boys from the dwarf]

if noj-R is correct in thinking the machine isnt built yet. that would mean that they have to go to the future to prevent more things happening.

[Noj_R]

if noj-R is correct in thinking the machine isnt built yet that would mean that they have to go to the future to prevent more things happening.

Or they could just kill Ulti and end the problem at the root.

[boys from the dwarf]

thats what i meant. kill ulti off before she causes more trouble. pay some more attention.

[Christmas]

if noj-R is correct in thinking the machine isnt built yet. that would mean that they have to go to the future to prevent more things happening.


Dr. Odine: Eghhhhhh! I kept this a secret to surprise you... It iz
because of me, Odine! I researched Ellone's power long ago. I made out
a pattern from ze current running through Ellone's brain. Once ze
pattern was determined, it was easy to mechanize. It may only be a toy
right now, but in ze time of Ultimecia, it iz an impressive working
machine! Which means there iz a machine which imitates Ellone's power.
It iz I who made ze first model of zat machine. I named ze machine
'Junction Machine Ellone'! It iz a vonderful thing to know that my
invention is used in ze future!

[Jessweeee♪]

GAH!!! I gotta quit reading these...everything goes in circles!!

[Skyblade]

In other words, they couldn't destroy it because it would create a paradox? Ie. time forces people to avoid paradoxes? Sounds suspiciously like a weaker version of fate if you ask me, but anyway...

I suppose you could argue that it is fate. By it's not. It is essentially the opposite. The future is malleable: Your decisions and actions can change it. But the past is not so forgiving. If you change the past, you change the present. But how far can you stretch it? If you change the past so much that you don't exist, will you have been alive in order to change the past? And if you erase yourself from time, then would you not have been there to erase yourself, and thus you will still exist? The paradox is an infinite loop. Of course, since the future time period is the present to the people existing in it, then the same rules apply to it. The people from the future cannot change the past (our present) to the point where they prevent themselves from making that change. It is one of the real headaches that comes from dealing with time travel to the past. As I said, it is not the theory that I suscribe to, but it is a viable explanation for why destroying JME was not an option.


GAH!!! I gotta quit reading these...everything goes in circles!!

I know. Fun, isn't it?

[Noj_R]

Should we really reopen 16 day old threads?