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Ancient Seductress
02-16-2006, 02:02 AM
Carthage Vs Rome

A discussion about about which of the two city's of Carthage and Rome was better.Its a discussion about Hannibal Barca and Scipio Africanus
Also I like to say that I am from Tunis modern day Carthage and all heros and legends you see before you are my ancestors :D

As is Sufyan Jaffar who posts here as well.

The movie "Hannibal The Conquer" which will be played by Vin Diesel which maybe coming out this year will soon finally put the greatest war in ancient history for everyone to see.To tell the story of the Young 24 year old general Hannibal Barca.Because of this I want to make a discussion where we can dispute as to who is better, Carthage was greater then Rome or was it Rome which was greater then Carthage. Carthage Of course was the greatest Empire unmatched in everything and certainly unmatched against Rome,It won far more deserving victories it held the greater part of the empire it was the dominate city of the sea against the romans and the Greeks in all way Carthage was better then Rome here's why.

In the epic Punic Wars which shaped the very history of the world and pitted the very best of the East against the very best the West. Semitic Arab Carthaginians against the Latin western romans is one which history remembers above all other wars as being the most Epic and Most Terrible in sheer grand loss of two empires clashing with everything they had.But iam not going to talk about the first Punic war, iam going to give the account of the second Punic war in which Hannibal the Legendary Hero faces off against Scipio the Brilliant general,the greatest Rome had to offer.The Trojans had a hero with many wanderings also. Aeneas and his men sailed to North Africa where they met a woman. This would be the beginning of the greatest city in history.Aeneas and his men set off from ruined troy with suspense. First they reached a island with a mountain. They found plenty of animals to feast upon. But as they called upon the gods to enjoy the feast with them, large winged creatures with terrible claws stole the food they wanted and fouled up the meat they left. Aeneas and his men could not stand this any longer and they left. They then reached the city of a prophet named Helenus. Helenus told them that their route to North Africa on the west Mediterranean Sea, not to go through the current where the dreadful Scylla, monster in the cave, could eat men with any desire and Charybdis, the whirl pool who could suck anyone in with nothing left, lived.When Aeneas got to channel of Scylla and Charbydis he went around and then the mighty winds hit the ships. The waves crashed all might as the ships got battered.Aeneas and the men left were blown near the shore of Lybia.Aeneas now only had seven ships. Once they arrived they set out to explore the land. On one of their findings they came upon Tanit(In the Greek version of affairs is was there god venus) disguised as a huntress.The Goddess told them they were in Carthage and guided them into the main city.

”You see a Punic country, men of Tyre ...
Our ruler here is Dido, she who left
her city when she had to flee her brother ...
Her husband was Sychaeus: the wealthiest
landowner in Phoenicia(Lebanon). For her father
had given her, a virgin, to Sychaeus
and joined them with the omens of first marriage.
Unhappy Dido loved him with much passion.
Pygmalion, her brother, held the kingdom
of Tyre; beyond all men he was a monster
in crime. Between Sychaeus and her brother
dividing fury came. Pygmalion—
unholy, blind with lust for gold—in secret
now catches Dido’s husband off his guard
and cuts him down by sword before the altars,
heedless of his own sister’s love ...
And Dido, moved by this, prepared her flight
and her companions. Now there come together
both those who felt fierce hatred for the tyrant
and those who felt harsh fear. They seize the ships
that happen to be ready, loading them
with gold. The wealth of covetous Pygmalion
is carried overseas. A woman leads.
They landed at the place where now you see
the citadel and high walls of new Carthage
rising; and then they bought the land called Byrsa,
‘The Hide,’ after the name of that transaction
(they got what they were able to enclose
inside a bull’s skin).”

Aeneas first catches sight of Dido as she arrives at a temple. Dido is described not only as beautiful, but she is also described as an active and fair queen, giving "orders and laws to men" and giving labor in "equal parts, or determined by lot." Under Dido's rule, my city Carthage flourished.When Aeneas saw the city, he gazed upon how the workers were so thrifty and how the city moved so quickly. Aeneas arrived at the palace and met Dido the Queen who fled from her brother when he killed her father, to this land where she developed a great city. Aeneas immediately said they were not there to fight and asked if they have help to get where they were going, and stay there in the meantime. Dido, the Tyrrian, said she would not judge anyone no matter where they came from. Queen Dido welcomes the exhausted refugees to Carthage, for she has heard of the “acts and heroes” of the Trojan War.He told the tragic story of Troy. Even with all the sadness in the story Dido wanted to hear the story over and over again because she was in love with Aeneas when the god Juno saw this, she coud not do anything to hurt poor Dido.Time whent on and many adventures our Queen Dido and Aeneas had in the North African homeland.Aeneas, however, is instructed by the gods to leave Carthage so that he can fulfill his destiny. Rumor of Aeneas' departure flies about Carthage, and Dido confronts Aeneas.When Aeneas finally departs, Dido is devastated and enraged. For Aeneas she had sacrificed her reputation and her kingdom, and for Aeneas she had given her love. Dido, seeing no where else to turn, and decides to kill herself.

But Dido, desperate, beside herself,
with awful undertakings, eyes bloodshot ...
mounts in madness that high pyre, unsheathes
the Dardan sword, a gift not sought for such
an end. And when she saw the Trojan’s clothes
and her familiar bed, she checked her thought
and tears a little, lay upon the couch
and spoke her final words: “O relics, dear
while fate and god allowed, receive my spirit
and free me from these cares; for I have lived
and journeyed through the course assigned by fortune ...
I shall die unavenged, but I shall die,”
she says. “Thus, thus, I gladly go below
to shadows. May the savage Dardan drink
with his own eyes this fire from the deep
and take with him the omen of my death.”
Then Dido’s words were done, and her companions
can see her fallen on the sword; the blade
is foaming with her blood, her hands are bloodstained.

Aeneas and his men were out ot sea when they noticed this great funeral fire which his the lust with which both Dido and Aeneas had for each other. Passion which Dido was cursed by and the love which was an unbroken contract of memory which would last like the eternal flame above the world. Aeneas feared with sadness that the fire was that of Dido. Aeneas, having sailed for Italy, is unaware that Dido has killed herself, though he later hears rumors.But the two meet up again, when Aeneas journeys to the Underworld to speak to his father, Anchises, one last time. There he encounters a “forest of shadows”:

Among them, wandering in that great forest,
and with her wound still fresh: Phoenician Dido.
And when the Trojan hero recognized her
dim shape among the shadows (just as one
who either sees or thinks he sees among
the cloud banks, when the month is young, the moon
rising), he wept and said with tender love:
“Unhappy Dido, then the word I had
was true? That you were dead? That you pursued
your final moment with the sword? Did I
bring only death to you? Queen, I swear by
the stars, the gods above, and any trust
that may be in this underearth, I was
unwilling when I had to leave your shores.
But those same orders of the gods that now
urge on my journey through the shadows, through
abandoned, thorny lands and deepest night,
drove me by their decrees. And I could not
believe that with my going I should bring
so great a grief as this. But stay your steps.
Do not retreat from me. Whom do you flee?
This is the last time fate will let us speak.”
These were the words Aeneas, weeping, used,
trying to soothe the burning, fierce-eyed Shade.
She turned away, eyes to the ground, her face
no more moved by his speech than if she stood
as stubborn flint or some Marpessan crag.
At last she tore herself away; she fled—
and still his enemy—into the forest.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Years later Descendents of Dido a great leader of Carthage, Hanno takes the city to its first glory and The curses Dido puts on the Trojans come true via the Punic Wars, which took place between Carthage and Rome.

Ill tell you now about the second Punic war and the cities most famous solder 'Hannibal Barca'.Hannibal at age 9 accompanies his father, Hamilcar Barca, and his brothers on the Carthaginian expedition from Arab north Africa to the new lands in Iberia.Where he begs his father to let him accompany him and his older brother to a battle against hordes of Iberian warrior's his father takes him along.One month he promises his father that he would destroy Rome and save Carthage,A promise he keeps.Later through the years things Erupt even more in Carthage held Spain and the Romans attempt to convince the Cilberians to assassinate Hamlicar.Weeks after this a large band of horse men attack Hamlicar and his 3 sons as they are out hunting, Hamlicar rushed and got his young sons on a horse and had it ride of in one direction while he got on anther horse and rode in anther to lure the savage horsemen to him and save his beloved Sons.He rode and rode until he came to end of a cliff with a torrent river at its base,rather then allowing the romans his blood he threw himself and his horse into the river thus ending the great Hamlicars life,something Hannibal or his brother will never forget.....

Carthage was a maritime city state.And like all city states the people where more then just patriotic, or have a feeling of home toward there city, but more a deep Love For there city as if its the only thing in the world to them,The city has more value then the gods more value then the earth that it is on,every blade of grass every stone and drop of water is loved utterly by its people.Even the moon that reveals itself at night and the sun that rises at day is loved as part of the city alone.The Carthaginians where completely behind Hannibal, they praised his name in the city and threw festivals in his honor.When news came to Carthage that Hannibal has crossed the alps the people Held a massive parade within the city.The Temples struggled against the senate to send any kind of help to Hannibal, The sacred band where bared from the port of Carthage by the High Priest of Bhaal to keep them from going to Hannibal's aid and the fleets where withdrawn by the demands of the senate to protect Serdinia an island of no importance.The Carthaginian Senate was completely Jealous of Hannibal and saw him as a threat to there power so they basically Abandon him in Italy to face of against Rome himeself.When Hannibal having Destroyed seven roman armies was when he began to wain a bit while the romans just kept rasing more and bigger armies against him.When his brother got news of his dear brother surrounded(even tho Hannibal cut off the roman Alliance in Italy still the romans had enough to send at him) He quickly took a fleet of Tiriems to Spain where he raised an army of 50,000 Iberian mercenaries and Rushed head long into Rome to save his brother.It was a disaster the romans knew he was coming and sent two armies to ambush him and they did, his brother rushed in like a bull but the romans where waiting.They destroyed his army and captured him in which case In a barbaric roman fashion they then Beheaded him and threw his head into Hannibal Barca's encampment as if to taunt him.The ancient historians can only describe him as a "Tear full Hannibal".Having Lost his brothers and father to the romans he set out into what would be the greatest battle in history in vengeance for his family He would destroy the romans at the battle of Cannae

At Cannae

"Hannibal's officers all surrounded him and congratulated him on his victory, and urged that after such a magnificent success he should allow himself and his exhausted men to rest for the remainder of the day and the following night. Maharbal, however, the commander of the cavalry, thought that they ought not to lose a moment. 'That you may know,' he said to Hannibal, 'what has been gained by this battle I prophesy that in five days you would have saved carthage and the victor over the Capitol. Follow me; I will go in advance with the cavalry; they will know that you are come before they know that you are coming.' To Hannibal the victory seemed too great and too joyous for him to realise all at once. He told Maharbal that he commended his zeal, but he needed time to think out his plans. Maharbal replied: 'The gods have not given all their gifts to one man. You know how to win victory, Hannibal, you do not how to use it.' That day's delay is believed to have saved the City and the empire..."

Later on...

"...made their way to Canusium. Their situation was still perilous, for this place lay only some 4 miles distant, and why Hannibal did not follow up his success by the destruction of this remnant, isolated from succor, remains one of the enigmas of history, to all appearance a blemish on his generalship..."

If the 10,000 Romans who made it to Canusium had been taken care of, they wouldn't have been available for Marcus Marcellus to reinforce his own legions later on. They would prove very valuable. But despite the magnitude of Hannibal's astonishing tactical masterpiece, his effective fighting strength, including a garrison for his firm base and wounded, was now around 40,000-45,000 men. But his effective fighting strength would have been no more than about 35,000. He had rounded up very swiftly 19,300 prisoners, and from different directions. Any further military action, unless soundly based, would reduce these modest (given the numbers still available to his enemy) totals even more so, unless he could find the means to increase his numbers. Moreover, immediately following the Battle of Cannae, Hannibal learned many of the Sacred Band Ofiicers he had where know lost. A period of consolidation was now required, and, of no minor importance, the battlefield was was covered with vast amounts of weapons and military equipment - the very essentials behind the financing of his war. This bore very real implications; the soilders of carthage are mainly mercenaries, and they had served him with the utmost vigor and loyalty unlike ayone other soilder in history has done or felt toward there general.There weapons are now dull and there armor damp, carthage still refuses to send reinforcements to hannibal and the sacred band still are bared from the port of carthage to keep them from going to hannibals aid.

Maharbal was correct: Hannibal knew how to win a battle. Even Montgomery says in his History of Warfare, Pg. 96, "...indeed Hannibal's tactical genius at Cannae can compare with the conduct of any battle in the history of warfare...", and the great historian Will Durant states in his The Story of Civilization, Vol. 3, Book 1, Ch 3, Pg. 51, "...It was a supreme example of generalship, never bettered in history. It ended the days of Roman reliance solely on infantry, and set the lines of military tactics for 2,000 years.... The Prussian General Staff of the late 19th century seemingly became obsessed with Cannae, and the 1914 Schlieffen Plan was inspired by the battle, though the scale was much different. Lack of manpower for a 'colossal Cannae' forced the substitution of a 'right hook' for Hannibal's 'double-envelopment'. Alfred von Schlieffen's scheme brought Germany close to victory early in WW1, but turned out not to be feasible with the arrival in France of the British Expeditionary Force.Cannae would become an ideal of all commanders, and the Wehrmacht's vast envelopments of the Soviet forces at the start of 'Barbarossa' were called 'super-Cannaes'. Gregori Shtern, the Far East Army commander under Georgiy Zhukov, said of the great Soviet envelopment of the Japanese in 1939 at the Battle of Khalkin-Gol (Nomonhan), "...I think we have won the second perfect battle of encirclement in all history...". Norman Schwarzkopf, among many others, including Napoleon and Wellington, was an avid admirer of the hero Hannibal.But even through all this none could ever mimic or copy hannibal's victory's or techniques nor could they bring about the same loyalty and vigor of there man as hannibal had with his and never could they be in the hieght of a hero as was and the sheer life he took on as a "Champion Of Carthage"

Hannibal has admired since Polybius' time:

Polybius, Book 11.19,

"...No one can withhold admiration for Hannibal's generalship, courage, and power in the field, who considers the length of this period, and carefully reflects on the major and minor battles, on the sieges he undertook, on his movements from city to city, on the difficulties that at times faced him,the sheer epic oppession against him, in a word on the whole scope of his design and its execution, a design in the pursuit of which, having constantly fought the Romans for sixteen years, he never broke up his forces and dismissed them from the field, but holding them together under his personal command,kept such a large army free from sedition towards him or among themselves, and this although his regiments were not only of different nationalities but of different races..."

Book 15.15,

"...But nevertheless to meet each of these advantages Hannibal had shown incomparable skill in adopting at the critical moment all such measures as were in his power and could reasonably be expected to succeed..."

The 'advantages' Polybius means are those of Scipio's struggle against the invisible Hannibal, yet the battle was touch-and-go until the cavalry returned 'providentially' for Rome.

If there was a single (double, actually) astounding key to Hannibal's military genius, it was perhaps those 'variations of a trap' - subtle uses of bluff and even double-bluff. An example of simple bluff was his classic breakout of the Ager Falernus, where Fabius Maximus thought he had Hannibal trapped. Hannibal sent 2,000 men to the base of the hill with lit torches to attract the larger roman garrison to there presence and direction of onther incoming roman large patrol, In wich case the Romans Rushed the fleeing Meddateranian troops and instead ended up engaging there own legion. The Romans rushed up the hills ready to engage what they thought were enemy soldiers trying to escape. Instead they I sure hope the movie includes that scene. Double-bluff was exemplified by the Battle of Lake Trasimene. Roman historiography has labeled Gaius Flaminius as a fool for marching into a trap in an area which Livy described as, "...a position eminently adapted for surprise tactics, where the lake comes up close under the hills...", but Flaminius, in reality a seasoned commander who had recently defeated the barbarian Cisalpine Celts (ie, he wasn't a stranger to ambushes), could very well thought this was too obvious - in any case, how could anyone in command of an army of 30,000 men or so expect to be ambushed?
Hannibal's approach march to Tarentum in 212 B.C. was masterful - and another display of superb stratagem. Instead of completely trying to conceal his movements, which would have been practically impossible, he dispatched 2 parties of the famed Numidian horsemen, one on either side of his approach to scour the countryside, thus anyone who spotted them would either be taken prisoner or simply report a Numidian raid.

The Battle of the Trebbia was an example of simple bluff. As Polybius tells us, Book 3.70-71,

"...Such, then, was the purpose of Hannibal, who knew that Tiberius was sure to be aggressively inclined. He had long ago noticed a place between the two camps, flat and treeless, but well adapted for an ambuscade, as it was traversed by a water-course with steep banks densely overgrown with brambles and other thorny plants, and here he proposed to lay a stratagem to surprise the enemy. It was probable that he would easily elude their vigilance; for the Romans, while very suspicious of thickly-wooded ground, which the Celts usually chose for their ambuscades, were not at all afraid of flat and treeless places,the Romans not masters of warfare where not being aware that they are better adapted than woods for the concealment and security of an ambush, because the men can see all round them for a long distance and have at the same time sufficient cover in most cases. Any water-course with a slight bank and reeds or bracken or some kind of thorny plants can be made use of to conceal not only infantry, but even the dismounted horsemen at times, if a little care be taken to lay shields with conspicuous devices inside uppermost on the ground and hide the helmets under them..."

Even the amazing 'reverse-refusal' of of Hannibal's infantry maneuver at Cannae constituted a giant trap. His center was deployed to entice the advancing Romans to attack them, and the placing of 2 strong blocks of Meddatiranian infantry on either wing and further back meant not only would the enemy tend to suck into the center, but if things went amiss Celtic and Iberian units would also be funnelled into the center where they could bunch and slow the Roman advance. His unusual placing of the more numerous shock cavalry on the confined flank near the Aufidus River, with the Numidians on the other side, outnumbered by the Roman allied cavalry, meant that the Roman contingent would most likely be checkmated by the maneuverable Numidians, while the heavy cavalry would dispose of the Romans easily on their side, and be available for other tasks. Varro should be at least credited for realizing the right bank of the river was less suitable for cavalry, but Hannibal came up with an answer.

In final defeat at Zama, Hannibal even with carthage abbandoning him he would not abbandon his beloved city.In the battle of Zama again he showed what it meant to be hero.He knew he was finally outclassed in cavalry, and up against a great general in Scipio. Though our sources don't imply this, he probably deliberately sacrificed his horsemen to lure the Romans and Massinissa off the battlefield, where he had greater chance with his infantry. By using his cavalry units as decoys, however, he was taking a great risk by doing so, because it still involved their defeat, exposed his flanks, and the Roman/Numidian cavalry could return before he had finished off Scipio's smaller but better body of infantry. But he had to do something, and I don't think if they had held their ground they would have lasted long. The fact it was pretty close later shows Hannibal made a viable decision. Furthermore,just as Hannibal used the guals against the romans Scipio would know use the numedians against carthage.Because of this Scipio had superior cavalry and proved his adeptness with 'boomerang' style tactics before. Hannibal was a student of war, and, as I said earlier, a master of simple and double bluff. He also knew his history, particularly that of the Hellenistic kingdoms. He knew what happened to Antigonus when his son, Demetrius Poliorcetes, went off in pursuit of Seleucus' cavalry at the great battle of Ipsus in 301 B.C. It has been suggested that Seleucus did indeed have his horses feign retreat. But, unlike Hannibal, he had 400 elephants that day, so he could deploy some in reserve in case Demetrius returned. He never did. Did Scipio order his cavalry to merely ride out and ride back in the manner they did? Why didn't Scipio try a flank maneuver, as Hannibal had done at Cannae? He was certainly capable and it would have sealed the fate of carthage, and with superior material at his disposal. Scipio has been justly praised how well he handled the elphants at Zama, but it shouldn't be forgotten that Hannibal certainly knew all about the tendencies and contingencies of elephants in battle. He surely hoped they would do their stuff, but he easily could have known they would do exactly what they did do - swerve out to the flanks and disrupt things, which would aid his cavalry deception.For the first time in history Hannibal Finally had the might and famed Elephants of Carthage,the very thing that made carthaginian military dominance.But it is impossible that Hannibal thought things would go smoothly with recently levied war elephants.

His infantry dispositions were also unusual, probably becuase he knew he was at a disadvantage here too. He surely wasn't going to try to repeat his tactics at Cannae against a brillaint general who had been there as a 17 or 18 year old, thus wouldn't be taken in. Moreover, Scipio favored flank attacks with his best troops. Hannibal adopted a Roman triple-line, but with his best unit, his veterans, the one unit who could match Scipio's troops, at a further distance than the one between the 1st and 2nd line - a true reserve. Scipio could not do to him what he had so easily done to the other Carthaginian generals the past 7 years. Hannibal absorbed Scipio's legions, tiring them in the process, hoping to beat him head-on. It wasn't to be, as Scipio was too good not to lose his advantage, as Polybius said, and his army was too well-organized and well-drilled. But who knows what might have been if the 1st 2 lines hadn't turned on each other and Massinissa and Gaius Laelius hadn't returned 'providentially', as Polybius also said.

Anyway, an attack on Rome never formed part of his plans. For Hannibal, the swiftest method of taking a city was by taking it immediatly, something inconceivable in the case of Rome. Despite Roman scaremongering, there were plenty of troops for the immediate defence of the Capitol. 2 city legions had been raised at the beginning of the year, and Marcellus had a legion of marines at Teanum, as well as 1,500 men at Ostia. A considerable force was raised from the slave and criminal population, and 2 legions were to the north under one Postumius (who would shortly be ambushed and destroyed by the Boii in Cisalpine Gaul). The Romans achievied something thought impossible they gained dominans Over Carthage at sea, thus they would easily have returned many, many troops from Sardinia and Sicily to hemm in a besieging army - one which had no immediate siege machinery.

Hannibal pursued the only strategy that would break Rome, that of severing her ties with her allies, who furnished her with the arms, troops, and resources that made her fomidable, even in the face of a crises like Cannae. By marching on Rome after Cannae, it would have involved a compete reversal to that very strategy. How could he gain the appeasement of the peoples of southern Italy, the ones whose loyalty was more in question, and amongst whom much defection from Rome would occur, if he suddenly marched awy into the heartland of the Roman federation, largely populated by peoples who had already closed their doors to him on his march down from a year earlier?
However, the loyalty of the Latins was not unquestionable. Remember, it was a Latin from southern Italy who handed Clastidium, a Latin colony, to Hannibal upon his arrival in the Po Valley in 218 B.C., and Livy says, after Cannae, Book 22.61,
"...How far that disaster surpassed previous ones is shown by one simple fact. Up to that day the loyalty of our allies had remained unshaken, now it began to waver, for no other reason, we may be certain, than that they hated and despaired of the maintenance of our empire..." But more than Cannae, it was 7 years later in which Hannibal's grand strategy may have been succeeding:

Livy, Book 27.9,

"...Hannibal was legend all followed him willingly...There were at the time thirty colonies belonging to Rome. Twelve of these announced to the consuls through their representatives in Rome that they had no means from which to furnish either men or money. The colonies in question were Ardea, Nepete, Sutrium, Alba, Carseoli, Sora, Suessa, Cercei, Setia, Cales, Narnia and Interamna. The consuls, startled by this unprecedented step, wanted to frighten them out of such a detestable course, and thought that they would succeed better by uncompromising sternness than by adopting gentle methods. 'You colonists,' they said, 'have dared to address us, the consuls, in language which we cannot bring ourselves to repeat openly in the senate, for it is not simply a refusal of military obligations, but an open revolt against Rome'..."

It took 2 decades for Rome to overcome him, and although he had, at least in the first few years, an excellent war staff, he never had allies that succeeded. Alexander the Great had Antipitar, who successfully, unlike the Carthaginians in Iberia, secured the home base against the Spartans and sent the great one reinforcements when he needed them (after Gaugamela). In all, Alexander received about 40,000 reinforcements for his campaigns in the East. Hannibal received just 4,000 of the many that Carthage dispatched throughtout the war. Scipio had a secure base and indeginous allies to begin with in Iberia, never had to venture far into the Iberian and African lands, and certainly never faced the enormous reserves of manpower that opposed Hannibal. Julius Caesar, though brillaint, faced unorganized tribal levies in Gaul, and his veterans were more than a match for the bulwark of Pompey's raw recruits. Genghis Khan had Chepe and Subotai to conquer elsewhere, and Napoleon had his brilliant marshals, particularly the great Davout.None are at Hannibal's level of heroism and accomplishment.after 7 years, his strategy resulted in the defection of the 2 largest cities in Italy after Rome itself, along with 40% of the Rome's allies rendered unavailable for her, and when he beat them many times in the field, including smaller battles after Cannae?I think the arguments concerning Hannibal as a 'failure' with a few historiens, are mostly discredible points of view (Roman Historiens) amounts to saying that he shouldn't have gone to war in the first place. What if he had backed down with Saguntum? What next? Catago? Gades? Utica?

"...No one can withhold admiration for Hannibal's generalship, courage, and power in the field, who considers the length of this period, and carefully reflects on the major and minor battles, on the sieges he undertook, on his movements from city to city, on the difficulties that at times faced him, and in a word on the whole scope of his design and its execution, design in the pursuit of which, having constantly fought the Romans for sixteen years, he never broke up his forces and dismissed them from the field, but holding them together under his personal command, like a good ship's captain, kept such a large army free from sedition towards him or among themselves, and this although his regiments were not only of different nationalities but of different races. For he had with him Africans, Spaniards, Ligurians, Celts, Phoenicians, Italians, and Greeks, peoples who neither in their laws, customs, or language, nor in any other respect had anything naturally in common. But, nevertheless, the ability of their commander forced men so radically different to give ear to a single word of command and yield obedience to a single will. And this he did not under simple conditions but under very complicated ones, the gale of fortune blowing often strongly in their favour and at other times against them.
Therefore we cannot but justly admire Hannibal in these respects and pronounce with confidence that had he begun with the other parts of the world and finished with the Romans none of his plans would have failed to succeed. But as it was, commencing with those whom he should have left to the last, his career began and finished in this field..."

Hannibal would go on history as the greatest general ever,throughout all his campaigns he does things unthinkable he takes city's without razing them plunders only weapons and armor buries and gives proper funeral rites to thousands of enemy dead solders and wins the respect and admiration of all his enemy's.He will always be remembered as the savior of Carthage and will remain as the greatest Hero.Hannibal Barca was the greatest man on earth just as Dido was the greatest woman on earth and they are from Carthage The City Of Bhaal.

Jebus
02-16-2006, 02:03 AM
I have nothing but respect for the ability of Hannibal, and the strength of Carthage, however my loyalty lies and always will lie with the SPQR.

Gloria perpetuus Senatus populique Romae.

In response to your pm: I can't find anything to argue with in that. I agree with you on basically every point. I may be a Roman loyalist, but I can recognize amazing skill when I see it.

Truly he was the greatest, and though Scipio Africanus was great in himself, he was incredibly lucky. Of course the Roman's policy of Amicitia didn't hurt either.

Ancient Seductress
02-16-2006, 02:34 AM
Rome was a great empire indeed,True.But only after carthage's time which means simply Carthage was better.Only after Carthage's distruction did rome gain the Medd world.Rome's economy alone(if not every other thing) was taken back 200 years after the war and a Epic struggle Erupted in the third and final war which was a siege against Carthage that lasted 12 years(reminds you of troy).So Carthage in all respects was the greatest.

I agree scipio was different from the roman commanders in terms of, from a distance he saw all of Hannibal Barca's battles he was there even in the time of hamlicar,he was in trasimene,he was watching Hannibal from a hill in cannae,he was in Gaul and studied Hannibal Barca tactics and techniques and used it against him 17 years later at Zama.Hannibal was still to strong and way to powerful for him to take on and finally after so long Hannibal has the weapons that make a Carthaginian army a Carthaginian army "Elephants".

http://photobucket.com/albums/e226/AncientSeductress/th_Hannibal.png
http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Art/turner-dido-building-carthage.jpg

Map Of Carthage (http://www.hannibaltheconqueror.net/#)

Jebus
02-16-2006, 02:46 AM
Yes, but at the time, Rome was merely the major cities of Italy, not counting allies. The great Empire of Rome didn't even emerge until Julius Caesar, or even Augustus's time.

However, even then, I doubt they'd be able to take Hannibal down that easily.

So as far as the Second Punic War is concerned, I'll have to go with Carthage.

Ancient Seductress
02-16-2006, 03:18 AM
Yes, but at the time, Rome was merely the major cities of Italy, not counting allies. The great Empire of Rome didn't even emerge until Julius Caesar, or even Augustus's time.

However, even then, I doubt they'd be able to take Hannibal down that easily.

So as far as the Second Punic War is concerned, I'll have to go with Carthage.

True Rome in the first punic war against Carthage and against Hannibal's father who never lost a single battle neither in his homeland of Arab North Africa,Sicily, Or Spain.Like father like son :D.But so was Carthage only a fledgling state who just began to bring itself into dominate power.'The Awesome Temple Of Bhaal' wasn't even built yet,and it was just only a few years before that Hanno became the first person to sail the Atlantic ocean and discover Britannia.


So as far as the Second Punic War is concerned, I'll have to go with Carthage.

Indeed, Rome in the second Punic War was already a super power and was at its height of military power.And had finally dominated all of Latin and the whole of italy.Already the Gaul where subdued,and many other barbarians pushed away.Rome was at its best in terms of strength and wouldn't be matched again like that until the reforms that would turn its army's into more professional solders

Jebus
02-16-2006, 04:35 AM
Yeah, it really wasn't until Marius that Rome became the great military power that it's known as today. Before that, Rome relied more on diplomacy, and alliances with weaker states.

SoulTaker*
02-16-2006, 05:49 AM
Though Hannibal is a great story, Im gonna have to go with Rome. The Roman Republic, Roman legions make the phalanx formation used by the the Macedonians, Corinthians, and Spartans obsolete and subjecates all of Greece, Julius Caesars conquest of Gaul(modern day France), Caesars murder by the senate and Brutus, the reformation into an empire under Octavius, 200 year peace, reign of Constantine the great and legalization of Christianity, Rome' is sacked by Alaric and the Visigoths, Catholic church in Rome holds western civilization intacted during the dark ages. Carthage had its time, but your comparing that to 3,000 years of Roman history, the cornerstone of western civilization.

http://www.asmilan.org/teachers/kwheatley/maps/roman_empire_height.JPG
Hannibal was a better general, but IMO he is the sole reason Rome got to be so powerful as it became, he taught the Romans how to be mobile, without that I dont think Rome beats Carthage at Zama.

Ancient Seductress
02-16-2006, 07:09 AM
True soultaker,Rome was very important to the western civilization.

The Carthaginians had the 1st and 2nd Punic war won from start to finish, only at the very end did the Romans amazingly came around and forced Carthage to surrender". However this should not be looked upon as a defeat for Carthage, if you study the ancient texts you will start getting a clear picture of Carthage being the victor.

Carthage having created sea and ocean exploration by inventing the Bireme replacing the ancient worlds obsolete Galley.Creating also Glass,Being the supreme masters of trade and the sea.Every Mediterranean people and country owe there prosperity to Carthage supreme excellence in trade and sea faring. There people the Phoenicians having invented the alphabet that we use today and inventing trade as a result the city of Carthage had the largest treasury and because of that it was able to do something that no other country of that time could do, and that was Rase armies soly made up of mercenaries something beyond just costly,and Carthage rased them by the hundred thousand and because of Carthage great training,payment,Equipment and the Awesome admiration and love the mercenaries had for Carthage's generals they where the best solders of that time unmatched by Hestati,Princapies,Spartans etc...It was the first and only empire that was a international empire it allowed all people to share with everything it had.It allowed others everything it had,It considered all other people as there own but in a take over kind of way in other words the Romans represented Evil imperialism where you ruthlessly conquered "Every" people,Suck every natural resource they had to offer,Take everything of there's and enslave them then leave out to drie.Carthage Represented the Good Angelic :D imperialism where you gently conquered "Every" people,share with the resources you take from them,treat them as complete equals never has Carthage upset Sicily or Spain,recruit thousands of mercenaries from the country and put complete faith of the empires fate in there hand with total confidence and trust. The conquered countries of Carthage loved carthage.Carthage's armies where A band of champions who didn't fight for there own country(they where mercenary they had no country), they didn't fight for gold or plunder(They where stuck so many times in Italy without anything),They didn't shed there blood because they have been promised an afterlife.They fought for there General,but most of all they fought for there friend Hannibal barca.Hannibal knew each and every one of them since he was a child, He grew up with them, knew there ways and unlike Alexander who pretended to be like the people he conquered to gain there support or dressed like them which was crap.Hannibal was sent with his father from Carthage to watch over spain.Hannibal spent most of his life in Spain but he dressed Carthaginian,spoke Carthaginian,acted in Carthaginian ways and never pretending to be anything he simply treated Spain as an equal to him.He knew his solders since he was nine years old, and them just young men fighting hordes of barbarians, legions of Imperial solders,Fleets of ships in every landscape Imaginable.The solders before being with Hannibal where with his father in Sicily fighting a war that costed the lives of millions of men(A number Unheard of in ancient times) hundreds of warships and between the two greatest empires the world has ever known.They fought so many battles and never lost one, Hannibal father never lost a single battle. He grew up with them fought two long wars with them and his father and they knew him. They knew him when they could easily pick him up into the air when he was a child and now grown, and 17 years old after the death of his father the army immediately elects and places him as the general already they could see in his eyes the eyes of his father,they where like brothers and sisters to him and he would lead all 100,000 straight into Rome.Every mercenaries where from Gaul,Spain,Sicily,Numedia,and most where of course Carthaginian Poeni Infantry. They all spoke different languages,acted in different traditions,and behaved completely different from each other not the least Hannibal barca,But among them was never a single feud,or a dispute,never a misunderstanding or disagreement which is Completely awesome if not unheard of, but then this is Carthage afterall.

Hannibal's Facts

I agree that Hannibal was the greatest leader in Ancient times. Do I even need to explain myself?

1. Hannibal was leading mostly mercenaries from foreign lands that did not speak his language. Therefore he was forced to give commands through many interpreters taking much valuable time.

2. Being mercenaries, they did not fight for the glory of their homeland. They did not fight to save their mothers, wives, and children from foreign threats like the Roman legions They fought for the love of their general and leader who they were willing to die for, in order to aid a cause that was erroneous to them.

3.If you all think he inherited command of the Carthaginian armies, you are gravely wrong. The title is voted for by the political parties, the people, and most importantly the army itself. Once Hamlicar died, Hannibal was immediately chosen as Commander of the Armies by the people, the Barcine party, and the entire army. The only people who opposed him were the small group of the Hanno party, which explains itself why they did not support him. He had proved himself to his troops through their Conquest of Spain. When he was still just young still protecting spain for carthage in Arab north africa he had conquered numerous Celtic tribes and in one battle he faced the dreaded Carpetani and defeated 100,000 troops. Says something, wouldn't ya say!

4.He was able to lead his troops on a trek across the Pyranees, the Rhone, and the Alps, in which they were many times ambushed by Gaulish tribes. Through this journey, the troops became exhausted and lost the will to go on, but through Hannibal's words, physiological genius, and sheer status encouraged the disgruntled troops to take fresh heart at the rest of the journey. His leadership obviously was astounding as they reached Italy. Tell me of another General who could have accomplished that feat. Napolon is obviously not an option seeing that he and his army crumbled under the "harsh" Russian winter, which was nothing compared to the alps. Hannibal and his army were able to survive through the Alps, much, much colder than the Russian winter, which was not open field like Russia, but narrow pathways and gourges, in which some he encountered stiff resistance by Gaul's.

5. Hannibal was able to defeat the Roman armies at the Ticinus and then at the Trebbia immediately after setting foot on Italian soil. (May I remind you all that he exited the Alps with a number of 24,000 troops.)

6. Although Hannibal never received proper reinforcements from Carthage he was able to lead his troops to victory in every pitched battle he engaged in.

7. Hannibal never failed. Others failed Hannibal. Due to political jealousies, Carthage did not supply Hannibal with sufficient reinforcements.He was admired so much that even Phillip the V of Macedon informed Hannibal that he would be declaring war on Rome and would ally himself with Hannibal. He did nothing except roam up and down the Italian coast with some warships to try and pressure the Romans; he never came on the Italian land to aid Hannibal like he said he would. Hasdrubal,a brave general who rushed to save his dear brother,but because of his ruthless bravery in a way was defeated at the Metaurus by the Roman consul Nero, thus not be able to join with Hannibal's force that would have decided the war in Hannibal's favor. That was a battle that Hannibal could have won while sleeping.

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Graphics/map-carthage-empire.gif

I want to share this with you all, its my home.The Ruins of Carthage know A part of the Tunisian Capital where I once lived.And may soon go back home.
http://www.tunisiaonline.com/pressbook/washtimes/18-1.gif

Neco Arc
02-16-2006, 10:13 AM
Hmm... decision...

Aeneas or Dido?
Trojans or Phoenicians?

I'd go with Carthage... after all Rome stole the way the Carthaginians built their warships...

SoulTaker*
02-16-2006, 07:04 PM
I'd give Hannibal 3rd greatest leader in ancient times.
1. Alexander the Great(needs no introduction)
2. Emperor Caesar Augustus (greatest emperor of the greatest empire ever)
3. Hannibal (brilliant tactician)

Remember it was Hannibals Numidians who were tired of Carthaginian rule that ended up being his downfall at Zama. The Numidians defected to Scipio's army. During the battle they drove the Carthaginian calvary off the the field then returned and attacked Hannibals flank ending the battle in Scipios and Romes favor, ending the second Punic war, Carthage lost all held territories, Carthages Navy was only allowed to have 10 ships, 10,000 pieces of Gold were paid to Rome, and Carthage was forbidden from raising an army without Rome's permission. 50 years later Carthage is wiped off the ancient map, because Rome feared it would return to its former power. Yes Rome was brutal but these were brutal times, thats why Rome lasted so long and became as great as it was, they could have surrendered to Carthage when Hannibal won at Cannae, but Roman thought was that of all or nothing, balls to the wall, total war, last one standing. And many civilizations couldnt cope with this, you go to war with Rome and you better be prepared to lose everything. Many wanted to get conquered by Rome, it provided you with a stable economy, protection, and shelter from barbarians, this is why Hannibal couldnt break Roman ties to its allies in Italy. During Carthages destruction Scipio Aemilianus grandson of Scipio Africanus commented on how he feared one day Rome might recieve the same fate, and expresed his reluctance to destroy the city even against orders. After he gave the Greek state Sicily back the art that Carthage had stole from them.

Scipio meets Hannibal in Syria one last time, he asks him who was the greatest general of all time. Hannibal said, "Alexander the Great". Scipio then asked him who was the second. "Pyrrhus of Epirus", said Hannibal. Scipio annoyed that Hannibal had not mentioned Scipio's name yet, Scipio pressed on and asked Hannibal who was the third. Hannibal said, "Myself". Scipio finally asked what would have happened if Hannibal had beaten him at the battle of Zama, and Hannibal said, "Then I would be the greatest general of all time".

Ancient Seductress
02-16-2006, 10:25 PM
The numedians where the downfall of Carthage,it was through them that Carthage won and it was through them that it lost.
Except the Numedians where not at war with Carthage,the numedians where a collection of Sahara tribes it was only Rome that came and paid many Numedians alot more gold then Carthage and this turned them against there city.It should also be noted that after the battle most of all the numedians where still allied to Carthage as I said it was only a few tribes but those Horsemen where the best in the world unmatched not even against Mongols.


When Scipio landed in North Africa(Arab Phoenician Region!) immediately began the fight against the City.First by sacking every town on his was to the river leading up to finally Carthage.The Carthaginians fled to Hannibal telling him the Romans have Invaded and know they are sacking there towns.When Hannibal heard this........

Polybius Writes

"The Carthaginians, when they saw their towns being sacked, sent to Hannibal begging him not to delay, but to approach the enemy and decide matters by a battle.After listening to the messengers he bade them in reply pay attention to other matters and be at their ease about this I will not let them hurt you or bring harm to Carthage I will go immidiatly.After a few days he shifted his camp from the neighborhood of Adrumetum and advancing to a town under attack by Rome, quickly Hannibal dispatched the engaging army. The town and the people which was then very well appreciated for Hannibal.He then feeling a cool breeze breaching his body decided to make his encampment there,the town was called Zama............

"From here he sent out three spies, wishing to find out where the Romans were encamped, and what disposition their general had made in his camp.When these men were caught and brought before him Scipio was so far from punishing them, as is the usual practice, that on the contrary he ordered a tribune to attend them and point out clearly the exact arrangement of the camp.After this had been done he asked them if the officer had explained everything to them with due diligence.When they answered that he had done so, he furnished them with provisions and an escort, and told them to report carefully to Hannibal what had happened to them.On their return Hannibal was so much struck with admiration of Scipio's magnanimity and daring, that he conceived, a strong desire to meet him and converse with him.Hannibal the Awesome general and the daring scipio"
The next day

The Romans encamped on the base of a hill which appeared to be convenient for his present design, but was rather too far away from water, while the scorching Mediterranean sun rose into miday Hannibal approached with his horse looking down from the hill into the Roman encampment as to spot Scipio.Scipio having also spotted him got on his horse and rode to Hannibal.
The meeting of the Generals

"Hannibal and Scipio approached each other and paused looking onto each in complete admiration and respect"
Leimis Writes

"Scipio having stood right before the great hero paused along with Hannibal trembling and in awe for the great Hannibal"
Hannibal First spoke and said to scipio,what remains but to consider by what means we can avert the anger of the gods and compose our present contention?I myself am ready to do so as I learnt by actual experience how fickle Fortune is, and how by a slight turn of the scale either way she brings about changes of the greatest moment, as if she were sporting with little children.I who many times defeated Rome having defeated her in cannae who not long afterwards advanced to Rome, and encamping at forty stades from the walls deliberated with myself how I should treat you and your native soil.Consider that I will vay for peace should you leave our shores know and may even then forgive you for what you have done to our towns and city's.
Hannibal having spoken so, Scipio replied. He said that neither for the war about Sicily, nor for that about Spain, were the Romans responsible but the Carthaginians were evidently the authors of both, in which where in the war with your father my father was killed as was your father,know here we stand the sons of both.He then said,he was more awake than himself to the fickleness of Fortune and as far as it was in his power he took into consideration the uncertainty of human affairs.I know that we all simply draw to a hundered chances for fortune or doom but like you I will not Abandon the Capital.
Hannibal immediately walks away before Scipio calls out to him "Hannibal"!Hannibal turns to him,Scipio then sais "Who is the greatest general".A silence falls on Hannibal,he then reply's "My father who I loved dearly".Scipio then Reply's "as I also love my father"

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Graphics/hannibal-scipio-zama.gif

The battle was of Zama was the worst yet,for the first time a complete defeat for Hannibal.

After the second Punic war ended Hannibal know confronts the Hanno senate that costed him everything and abandoning him in Italy.When the senate heard of the peace Hannibal gained and the war to finally be over they where not pleased.On this occasion it is said that when one of the senators was about to oppose the acceptance of the terms and was beginning to speak Hannibal having just about enough and completely fed up, came forward and pulled him down from the tribune :hahaha: The other members were indignant with him for such a violation of the usage of the house, and Hannibal then rose again and said that he confessed he had been in error, but they must pardon him if he acted contrary to their usage, p507as they knew that he had left Carthage at the age of nine, and was, now that he had returned, over five and forty. 4He, therefore, begged them not to consider whether he had transgressed parliamentary custom, but rather to ask this whether or not he really felt for his country; for this was the sentiment which had now made him guilty of this offence. 5"It seems to me," he said, "astounding and quite incomprehensible, that any man who is a citizen of Carthage and is conscious of the designs that we all individually and as a body have entertained against Rome does not bless his stars that now that he is at the mercy of the Romans he has obtained such lenient terms.Was there only way of ruining me was by ruining Carthage.


Hannibal Meets Scipio one last time in syria and that when Hannibal, as they were walking together, took the upper hand, Africanus let it pass, and walked on without the least notice of it; and that then they began to talk of generals, and Hannibal affirmed that Alexander was the greatest commander the world had seen, next to him Pyrrhus, and the third was himself;When Hannibal responds Alexander, Pyrrhus, and himself, Scipio bursts out in laughter at the hint of mockery at Hannibal’s answer, Africanus, with a smile, asked, "What would you have said, if I had not defeated you?" "I would not then, Scipio," he replied, "have made myself the third, but the first commander."

The Two Greatest Heroes,Hannibal And Scipio