1572,the year of FF8.

[Skyblade]

No, FE, Chocoboy is not a shumi at all. HE IS HYNE HIMSELF! HE'S CONTROLLING ODINE! BYW, speaking of using forensic evidence, your 'shumi' postulate violates that idea. You take one piece of dialogue construe it into a no limits fallacy for which we have absolutely zilcho evidence.

And no, Edea's headdress is in no way, shape, or form, a Propagator head. It is also not part of her body.

Don't change the subject. We're not moving on to his next insane theory until he's admitted that he's wrong about this one. I'm sick of him getting off the hook this way.

[Ryushikaze]

Which was why I brought it back to Edea's headdress. I want the boy to cop to his error too.

[Leeza]

*sigh* I'm getting sick of this, but it's funny, so I'll be here to see what else FE gets in his dreams and take a good laugh :)

Have your laugh without making any more posts of this nature. As I said just as few posts up from here:

As has been stated previously in this thread by more than one Mod, if you are going to post only to complain about FE and his theories, then don't bother posting. No one is twisting your arm to come into this thread.
...do not come in here for the sole purpose of posting what you just did. It's not on topic, it's spam, it's borderline flaming and just plain not nice. I don't want to see any more of that sort of posting from anyone in here.

[Ramza Beoulve]

Upss, sorry, my fault

In any case, I still want to know how Future Esthar will prove us how 1572 it's FFVIII year, how Zell can be in Squall in a robot scan and how the theory of the Propagator can be true, also I'm with Skyblade, first finish your first theory before take us to another one, FE, and for the plot of Edea being a Propagator, is'nt a Propagator head, it does'nt have eyes, and that visor-like thing is empty, like a "Gatchaman" helmet or something like that

[Future Esthar]

I think I already showed the eyes to you.

1-No,sir,the Propagator´s head´s are clearly transparent.
2-It is clearly a Propagator´s head.It didn´t matter the curveness(look to my final comment on this post).
3-There is no evidence for it being a cloth.
4-Edea is grey here like in the Ragnarok(I am not even talking about her clothes but about her body part of which can be seen).
5-Edea´s hands resembles that of a Propagator.

Did it even occurred to you that Edea is undergoing a Propagator-human transformation?

I never said Edea was in her full Propagator form.


In any case, I still want to know how Future Esthar will prove us how 1572 it's FFVIII year

I pretty much did this at the beggining.

I already gave three proofs for three different theories.

It just happens they were all subjective so if you don´t wanna to accept them it is up to you.
I already made my job.

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

1-No,sir,the Propagator´s head´s are clearly transparent.
2-It is clearly a Propagator´s head.It didn´t matter the curveness(look to my final comment on this post).
3-There is no evidence for it being a cloth.
4-Edea is grey here like in the Ragnarok(I am not even talking about her clothes but about her body part of which can be seen).
5-Edea´s hands resembles that of a Propagator.

Did it even occurred to you that Edea is undergoing a Propagator-human transformation?

1- No sir, the propogator head's are clearly not transparent. do you see their brain or the core of them that they use to function? i think not.
2- propogator heads do not curve to make a sharp point. their point at the end is rounded.
3- it is a visor. she used her magic to make it come out of the headress and then used her magic to put it back in.
4- it's called make-up buddy.
5- ever heard of long nails? and i don't recall propogator hands being so small and and the nails being so sharply pointed.

Did it ever occur to you that she has been married to Cid for quite sometime before this and that he would've found out by then and would've said something about that in the game? and the "humans were once propogators" thing is another one of your theories that has yet to be proven.

[Ramza Beoulve]

Did it ever occur to you that she has been married to Cid for quite sometime before this and that he would've found out by then and would've said something about that in the game? and the "humans were once propogators" thing is another one of your theories that has yet to be proven.

I agree

[Ryushikaze]

I think I already showed the eyes to you.

No. You showed us a screenshot in which you claimed there were eyes. The screenshot shows differently


1-No,sir,the Propagator´s head´s are clearly transparent.

Incorrect. they're decidedly opaque.


2-It is clearly a Propagator´s head.It didn´t matter the curveness(look to my final comment on this post).

It is clearly not. Not only that, but that you have to dismiss factors weakens your position further.


3-There is no evidence for it being a cloth.

There is EVERY evidence for it being clothing. At NO point does it actually touch her skin. It only touches the other parts of her headdress.


4-Edea is grey here like in the Ragnarok(I am not even talking about her clothes but about her body part of which can be seen).

PSSSSST! Most of her visible skin is IN SHADOW. When devoid of light, most things appear grey. However, some of her skin IS in direct light. This skin is normal fleshtone.


5-Edea´s hands resembles that of a Propagator.

No. Edea's hands were sharp and tapering. Propagator hands are blunt and do not taper. Besides, they're shorter, and joint in the wrong places.


Did it even occurred to you that Edea is undergoing a Propagator-human transformation?

I never said Edea was in her full Propagator form.

Nevermind that she neither begins nor ends the FMV in any form resembling a propagator. Or the fact that she for some inexplicable reason has more hair as a 'propagator', hair being something they don't have.


I pretty much did this at the beggining.

I already gave three proofs for three different theories.

No... You say you did, but you've actually failed to do so.


It just happens they were all subjective so if you don´t wanna to accept them it is up to you.
I already made my job.

Oh, so you admit that these little flights of fancy are subjective, IE- not objective. I believe we have a tacit concession, folks.

[Future Esthar]

1-Propagator´s heads were transparent.Theyr eyes are INSIDE their head.
2-
(look to my final comment on this post).




Did it even occurred to you that Edea is undergoing a Propagator-human transformation?

I never said Edea was in her full Propagator form.


I know this was not the final comment but this is what I was referring to.

:rolleyes2

3-I saw the video again.We can´t see it touching her skin nor we can´t see it touching her clothes.It is impossible to tell.

4-A makeup?That is an a-priori unfounded postulation.

5-
Did it even occurred to you that Edea is undergoing a Propagator-human transformation?

I never said Edea was in her full Propagator form.
.
:rolleyes2

By the way,what is the meaning of the words "tamper" and Blunt?


id it ever occur to you that she has been married to Cid for quite sometime before this and that he would've found out by then and would've said something about that in the game? and the "humans were once propogators" thing is another one of your theories that has yet to be proven

Do you even thought were the word Seed came from?
That´s simple.
Propagator´s heads resemble some kind of seed(wheat seeds,I think).
Anyway you can´t prove that Cid is not a shumi possessed by Doc Odine(while I have lots of evidence for it).
There is no problem in backing theories with theories as long as fhe final ones are backed up by evidence.


Nevermind that she neither begins nor ends the FMV in any form resembling a propagator. Or the fact that she for some inexplicable reason has more hair as a 'propagator', hair being something they don't have.


Ever heard of transitional forms?

1-Edea transforms mouth and foot first(what we don´t see).
2-Edea transforms hair(don´t see also).
3-Transforms hands a little(don´t see).
3-Transforms head making hair short(what we see).

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

FE, you cannot use theories as proof if they have not been declared true or infalsifiable. You have no evidence of Cid being possessed, Edea does use make-up to make her skin less bright(the make-up they use on actors and actresses so their skin doesn't glare up on the screen), the propogator heads are not transparent(if one part of their body is transparent than the rest of it is, which it's not and our eyes are inside of our head as well FE), no that is not subjective since you can prove this through the game by looking at the tip of their head in the front(most ppl would call it rounded in the real world), we do see the red visor protruding from her headdress and then see it go shrink back in(it does not touch her skin becuase it is not a part of her, but we can see it go back into her head piece),already answered your #4, don't you roll your eyes at me when I have already made a counter point to that.

the word blunt means not sharp; dull.
their head do resemble seeds but that is irrelevant. why would propogators even say that their heads look like seeds? and why would they use that for a reason of the making of the name for the SeeD. also, they are not called seed, they are called See-D(the name of the letter D for the last part of the pronunciation).

You also have no proof of her transforming. In the game we see Edea(or matron) in a full human form before this even happens(the orphanage flashbacks), and don't start telling me that was a disguise. Besides, you say we only see one of the transitions for the transformation. We have counter-argued that and you can't say ashe transforms if you only see one phase. that would be ridiculous.

[Ryushikaze]

1-Propagator´s heads were transparent.Theyr eyes are INSIDE their head.

Heero already addressed this one.


2-I know this was not the final comment but this is what I was referring to.

:rolleyes2

Which you have yet to prove.


3-I saw the video again.We can´t see it touching her skin nor we can´t see it touching her clothes.It is impossible to tell.

No. It's rather easy to tell, we do see it touching her clothing, and the curvature and hollow interior means that it does not touch her skin, nor does it contain anything.


4-A makeup?That is an a-priori unfounded postulation.

The fact that YOU are saying this just makes me want to hurt something. Firstly because THAT'S WHAT MOST OF YOUR STUFF IS, and secondly, because it's not. Do you even look up the meaning of the words you use?
In any case, her skin appears grey because of the reduced light values. It is fleshtone where light strikes it.


5-.
:rolleyes2

Did it ever occur to you that Squall is a Moomba?


By the way,what is the meaning of the words "tamper" and Blunt?

TAPER. And it means to grow thinner along a length. Blunt means not sharp.


Do you even thought were the word Seed came from?
That´s simple.
Propagator´s heads resemble some kind of seed(wheat seeds,I think).

NOOOOO... The word comes from a temporal paradox when Squall told Edea what SeeDs were, and then she and Cid started SeeD, raising Squall as one, etc.


Anyway you can´t prove that Cid is not a shumi possessed by Doc Odine(while I have lots of evidence for it).

Firstly, we NEVER need to prove a negative assertion. It wins by default unless the positive assertion can front the enough evidence. Secondly, no you don't have lots of evidence for it. You have EXACTLY ONE LINE of evidence, which you ignore the meaning of and rewrite into a no limits transformation ability for the shumi.


There is no problem in backing theories with theories as long as fhe final ones are backed up by evidence.

Incorrect. While you can base a theory on an ACCEPTED theory, this new theory must ALSO have evidence to support its position. You're attempting to support a theory with completely inevidenced, horrifically tenuous postulates.




Ever heard of transitional forms?

1-Edea transforms mouth and foot first(what we don´t see).
2-Edea transforms hair(don´t see also).
3-Transforms hands a little(don´t see).
3-Transforms head making hair short(what we see).

Basically, your theory rests on the idea that Edea was transforming, when the FMV does not show anything of the sort (the visor, as mentioned, is NOT part of her body), when she was human before and after the scene, and that she decided to grow and then retract several feet of hair for no good reason. Oh, and that she was a Propagator before this transformation when we actually see her as a human before the scene, making any transformation totally redundant.

[Omnislash07]

Ever heard of transitional forms?

1-Edea transforms mouth and foot first(what we don´t see).
2-Edea transforms hair(don´t see also).
3-Transforms hands a little(don´t see).
3-Transforms head making hair short(what we see).


You have no proof of these other forms, throught the game Edea is shown as a human and all of your proof is being drawn off of one short FMV which only shows her headdress being retracted so that the people can see her face. There is nowhere you could possibly get the idea for the other transformation forms other than just making them up.

[Future Esthar]

-Propagator´s heads were transparent.Theyr eyes are INSIDE their head.
]

By inside,I mean deep inside,not at the surface.Since we can see them we conclude it is transparent.


No. It's rather easy to tell, we do see it touching her clothing, and the curvature and hollow interior means that it does not touch her skin, nor does it contain anything.

You call that spiral thing a cloth?
Can´t it be part of Edea´s body as well as the horns?



Firstly, we NEVER need to prove a negative assertion. It wins by default unless the positive assertion can front the enough evidence. Secondly, no you don't have lots of evidence for it. You have EXACTLY ONE LINE of evidence, which you ignore the meaning of and rewrite into a no limits transformation ability for the shumi.


That was not the evidence I was referring about.
But don´t worry,I will not change subject without give my best evidence to this one.


Incorrect. While you can base a theory on an ACCEPTED theory, this new theory must ALSO have evidence to support its position.

That´s what I said.


You have no proof of these other forms, throught the game Edea is shown as a human and all of your proof is being drawn off of one short FMV which only shows her headdress being retracted so that the people can see her face. There is nowhere you could possibly get the idea for the other transformation forms other than just making them up.

I don´t wanna to proof anything with this.
I am just posting possible alternatives which explain why the heads and hands are SIMILAR although not equal.
It thus refute the concept that if they are not tottaly equal they are not the same thing.


the game we see Edea(or matron) in a full human form before this even happens(the orphanage flashbacks)

It´s not like if she is transforming for the first time.She can perform transformations many times.

Guys,the fact that Edea´s head and hand were SIMILAR to that of a Propagator don´t tell you much already?

That´s the best evidence I can give for the characters being Propagators.

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

FE, how about you argue against more than one thing is my response. The fingers are long due to Ulti possessing her, that is all and that is the reason. Also, if she was a prop then she could only transform once since you say that humans were from propogators. Who said their eyes were deep inside of them, where is your proof? In every screenshot there is no good image that is close enough to show how deep the eyes are embedded. Also, I have more on thye transparency thing on my post before. READ IT!

[Ryushikaze]

By inside,I mean deep inside,not at the surface.Since we can see them we conclude it is transparent.
Burden of proof to show that they are deep inside. They do not appear so.

You call that spiral thing a cloth?
Can´t it be part of Edea´s body as well as the horns?
No, I call it clothing. And yes, there is a bizarre off chance that Edea has had it grafted onto her body or grown via magical corruption, but such an assumption flies in the face of the far more parsimonious view that it is attached to her skullcap, not her skull.

That was not the evidence I was referring about.
But don´t worry,I will not change subject without give my best evidence to this one.
I look forward to this evidence when we make it that far, then.

That´s what I said.
Not quite, but I'll let the slipup slide since you've mentioned previously that this is not your first language.

I don´t wanna to proof anything with this.
I am just posting possible alternatives which explain why the heads and hands are SIMILAR although not equal.
They're not all that similar, though. To be honest, Edea in a headdress looks more like a Red Chocobo than a propagator.

It thus refute the concept that if they are not tottaly equal they are not the same thing.
Hasty generalization fallacy, and even then that would only be if you could prove all this to be true.

It´s not like if she is transforming for the first time.She can perform transformations many times.
But why? No, seriousy, what does it benefit her to waste energy in transformation?

Guys,the fact that Edea´s head and hand were SIMILAR to that of a Propagator don´t tell you much already?
The only similarity is length. All other aspects, including proportion (the joints are far, far too soon along the total finger) are entirely incorrect, and the length can easily be explained by having needlessly long nails.

That´s the best evidence I can give for the characters being Propagators.
And it's not enough to prove it, however.
Meanwhile, I do have something to say- If the characters are the Propagators, then why do the propagators attack 'themselves' and why don't the other characters die via paradox by killing themselves?

[Ramza Beoulve]

If the characters are the Propagators, then why do the propagators attack 'themselves' and why don't the other characters die via paradox by killing themselves?

Agree, even so,if the Propagators kill Rinoa and Squall, then they would be destroying themselves, and in other way Rinoa and Squall destroy them, they would destroy the team, including Rinoa and Squall, so they could'nt destroy themselves, then creating a complex paradox ending where anyone could destroy their other "selves".

So my questions are:

If Propagator are the characters past form, then why the characters can kill the Propagators?

If the characters are the Propagators past form, then why the Propagators can kill the characters?

these are my own answers

You have played Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, or maybe watched "Time's Machine" movie or read the novel? there explains all this crap over and over again, but I'll make my own theory (sorry theories's haters)

A person cannot kill himself in the past, because he would end existing, then in the future wouldn't be a himself to destroy his past himself, so the first thing then would never happen really, then there would be a complex paradox.

There could be the parallel universe, but here, if you kill yourself in past, your universe would end, the history taking another path, where there is not another you to kill your past, destroying that path too, also with all other paths, creating the end of all the times.

(I had to take a little time to understand myself, if you cannot understand too, just take your time)

Theres also the history of the original FF, where the legend the young ones hear where really themselves, but here they DIDN'T mess with his own lifes.

You cannot really change your past, but if you do, then you would already remember it :choc:

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

Just so you know, we are not theory haters. We just disprove theories that we know through knowledge of the said topic of the theory are wrong. And as for your theory, it makes a lot of sense.

[Sir Bahamut]

You cannot really change your past, but if you do, then you would already remember it

This doesn't make sense. Either you can change your past or you can't. There's no such thing as "not really" changing the past. And the statement about remembering changing the past makes no sense either, unless you mean that they remember AFTER they've actually changed it.

Further, what exactly is Future saying. Is he saying that the Propagators are Squall, Rinoa etc. in the past, or is he saying that the Propagators are Squall, Rinoa etc. in the future. Because those two questions you asked said both, so it's a bit confusing to understand what question you're actually answering (although you didn't actually answer either, no offense meant). This is the breakdown on both situations though:

1) If the Propagator's are the party in the past, then killing them is not possible. The only way it could work is if you assumed that alternate universes are at play in FF8. Then whoever did the time travelling (ie. the Propagator's arriving from the past, or Squall and Co from future), they came from an alternate universe, so no paradox arises.

However, alternate universes are highly implausible in FF8, as there is absolutely nothing indicating they exist, making it far more plausible that you simply cannot change the past, like Ellone says.

So basically, if Future is saying that the Propagaotrs are younger versions of Squall and Co, he'll have to be assuming alternate dimensions, thus weakening the strength of his 'theories'.

2) If the Propagators are Squall and Co in the future, then nothing happens if the Propagators are killed. As for the Propagators killing Squall and Rinoa, that doesn't ever happen, so it doesn't matter if a paradox would arise.

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

No, the past future thing was just a theory that shadowcrono thought up. It has nothing to do with the propogators or even the discussion at hand. Just drop it and read some of the posts before.

[Ramza Beoulve]

This doesn't make sense. Either you can change your past or you can't. There's no such thing as "not really" changing the past. And the statement about remembering changing the past makes no sense either, unless you mean that they remember AFTER they've actually changed it.

What I tried to tell there was "If you change your own past, making a relation with yourself, then you would remember it" also "you cannot change an already made past", and for that of the Propagator could be from other dimensions, then we would be messing to much with a thing we already know "FF VIII is about past, present, and future, not from relationships through parallel universes"


Just so you know, we are not theory haters. We just disprove theories that we know through knowledge of the said topic of the theory are wrong. And as for your theory, it makes a lot of sense.

:), I was talking of other people, not you, sorry if I confused you

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

Oh...i thought you were making a general statement.

[Death Penalty]

This thread makes me feel all tingly inside. Tee hee. Oh is there any real proof to make me believe this FE or is this another addition to the downfall of society

[Ramza Beoulve]

Well, read the Topic's title, now imagine around 4 plot holes still not proveen, plus one guy trying to build his own FFVIII world, plus a great group trying to break that confusing plotholes and save player's mind, and what do you got?...

Addition to downfall of society

[Death Penalty]

Now it makes so much sense

[Future Esthar]

[!]You are just a bunch of arrogant and Nazi people.End point.You didn´t prove me wrong any little at least that I know of.[/!]

The Propagators are from a time before the events on the orphanage.
People think they are killed when they kill two of the same color consecutively but that is not the case.A good observer can see their eyes blinking.
And it seems they supposedly breed on the ship again after being exterminated.
Counter argument debunked

Personal attacks will absolutely NOT be tolerated. If I see much more of this, you will be banned.

~Void.

[Death Penalty]

What are you talkin about there never was an argument

[Skyblade]

The Propagators are from a time before the events on the orphanage.

PROVE IT!!!

[Ramza Beoulve]

The Propagators are from a time before the events on the orphanage.

And if they are, then if the team kills them, and they really are the past form of the characters, then there would be a Paradox, like I already say in my "Time Change Theory"

[Omnislash07]

The Propagators are from a time before the events on the orphanage.
People think they are killed when they kill two of the same color consecutively but that is not the case.A good observer can see their eyes blinking.
And it seems they supposedly breed on the ship again after being exterminated.
Counter argument debunked

First of all if the propagator's eyes are inside their heads the way you say then they can't blink. unless you mean blink as in flash. if this is true then post a screen shot because no one else has ever seen what you are talking about. Plus you have no ingame reference of them ever breeding in the ship after killiing all of them so that is comepletly false.

[Ryushikaze]

[!]You are just a bunch of arrogant and Nazi people.End point.You didn´t prove me wrong any little at least that I know of.[/!]

Uhh... Moderator, I keep this here for one reason. I did not copy past this. It was autoselected by the quote tag. Basically, this exists as a note that you may wish to correct this problem, since I don't know who to contact about it.
Addendum: Ah, now I see how it works. But you can still see it via quoting the post, so it might be better just to delete it.
Though one point to Future. I again repeat that we do not have to prove you wrong. YOU have to prove yourself right.


The Propagators are from a time before the events on the orphanage.

Burden of proof. Show that this is so.


People think they are killed when they kill two of the same color consecutively but that is not the case.A good observer can see their eyes blinking.

They'd have to be good. Propagators don't sit around once you kill them.


And it seems they supposedly breed on the ship again after being exterminated.

REALLY? I don't recall ever having to smack them for infesting the head. Burden of proof that they reproduce.


Counter argument debunked

No, sir, it wasn't.
You have NOTHING to suggest that Propagators aren't random aliens. I know you point to the Edea FMV, but she doesn't look anything like a propagator in it.

[Skyblade]

REALLY? I don't recall ever having to smack them for infesting the head. Burden of proof that they reproduce.

I think he is referring to the note left by the Ragnarok's former inhabitants. They say that they thought they had wiped them out previously, and left the instructions on how to kill them in case the infestation started again. However, there is no proof that they did actually succeed in wiping them all out, nor any proof that they reproduced. Think about it. Sure, the crew was able to leave the note, but they weren't able to get back to Earth. They probably killed most of them, but were finally overpowered by the last ones, who you later have to fight when you board the ship.

[Future Esthar]

They say"In case they breed again",not "the ones left".
These guys know they can breed again.To this argument you can add the fact that the Propagators eyes flash and voila.

[Polaris]

:s I'm so confused I always thought that the date of ff would be more like probably 10 000 year... but the O should be smth like that, although we can't forget that being a different world maybe it has also different time, so when it's the 16th century there they are more advanced than us!

[Ryushikaze]

Future, you still have the problem that they never come back after you kill them, meaning that you now need to show that Squall and Rinoa didn't wipe out the infestation.

And you need to prove the eye flashing.

[Future Esthar]

Go play the game to see the eye flashing.I am not saying they appear when they are all defeated.I am saying the eyes flash when you kill two couples by the same color(without killing them all).


Future, you still have the problem that they never come back after you kill them, meaning that you now need to show that Squall and Rinoa didn't wipe out the infestation.


See post 781,782.

The very fact that bodies disappear don´t prove they are dead.
That is for game beauty purposes.

EDIT

FROM ANOTHER THREAD


I'm just really curious when Balamb Garden actually time traveled.

Definition: the hypothetical process of moving between past and future; also written time-travel

Elleone can send your mind/spirit back through time, and in the future Dr Odines Junction Elleone machince can send Ultimecia (and its said shes the only one that could handle it). But just humor me with when the gigantic garden which Cid and Norg created jumped through the fabric of time??? and I can fly the garden for 13 hours in the game if I wanted so apparently the beast has plenty of gas(or steam units, whatever you wanna call it) to go around


The Garden is a remodelation of DSRC after the flood dried and it get attached to the clock tower and master room of Ulti´s Castle (as known as excavation site).
Of course at this time Ulti had already made some changes on her castle.

We know that it is possible to refill the gas tank somehow from what we learn on DSRC.
But then the door unlocking sequence has to be done again.
This by itself is strange and indicates DSRC can time travel.
By the way,it is RSP (reserve steam pressure).Not reserve steam points.Sorry for that mistake.
Let me explain more.The Garden has some kind of GPS system.It was programmed to time-travel when it pass through certain regions.Of
course no one besides Odine (and probably Laguna) knows how to manually time-travel Garden.


Actually, the flying system the Garden has was made before the creation of the Garden, maybe relationed to Centra people

Aside of this, the Garden didn't go through time, it stayed in the team's time, and the part where Seifer, Fujin and Raijin see the Garden, is after time restoration, it really happens in present.


Of course,it goes back to Ulti´s castle.The CLOCK TOWER was a primitive version of a time-machine.
The GPS system is also there.The big clock is a giant map.

The clocks central gauge represents FH.One of the pointers points toward Esthar(this one I don´t understand) and the other point´s towards Edea´s house.

[Skyblade]

Go play the game to see the eye flashing.I am not saying they appear when they are all defeated.I am saying the eyes flash when you kill two couples by the same color(without killing them all).

I've played it lots of times, and I've never seen the eye flashing. Could you give a specific point that we should look at to note this imaginary activity?


The very fact that bodies disappear don´t prove they are dead.
That is for game beauty purposes.

Tell me, if there were Propagator survivors, where on that little ship are they hiding so well from both the team and the CC members?


The Garden is a remodelation of DSRC after the flood dried and it get attached to the clock tower and master room of Ulti´s Castle (as known as excavation site).
Of course at this time Ulti had already made some changes on her castle.

We know that it is possible to refill the gas tank somehow from what we learn on DSRC.
But then the door unlocking sequence has to be done again.
This by itself is strange and indicates DSRC can time travel.
By the way,it is RSP (reserve steam pressure).Not reserve steam points.Sorry for that mistake.
Let me explain more.The Garden has some kind of GPS system.It was programmed to time-travel when it pass through certain regions.Of
course no one besides Odine (and probably Laguna) knows how to manually time-travel Garden.

Of course,it goes back to Ulti´s castle.The CLOCK TOWER was a primitive version of a time-machine.
The GPS system is also there.The big clock is a giant map.

The clocks central gauge represents FH.One of the pointers points toward Esthar(this one I don´t understand) and the other point´s towards Edea´s house.

Um, prove this, please. In fact, give any evidence at all supporting this idea.

[The Last Oath]

Future Esthar, these theories you explain are indeed empressive, but is there more proof or explantions?

[Ramza Beoulve]

FE, you are trying to tell us that the place where Garden was build, is a part of Ultimecias castle?

I remember a post where someone talks about the orphanage, In past is a complete, cute place, in present is a damaged place, and you then talk about the place where Ultimecia's castle is attached... If I'm right, there was a huge chain attached to ground and to the castle, if the castle is from the past, then wouldn't one part of the chain still in the ground, or in the surroundings of the orphanage?

[Skyblade]

FE, you are trying to tell us that the place where Garden was build, is a part of Ultimecias castle?

I remember a post where someone talks about the orphanage, In past is a complete, cute place, in present is a damaged place, and you then talk about the place where Ultimecia's castle is attached... If I'm right, there was a huge chain attached to ground and to the castle, if the castle is from the past, then wouldn't one part of the chain still in the ground, or in the surroundings of the orphanage?

The chain was metaphorical. It was binding the castle to that time period.

[Ramza Beoulve]

The chain was metaphorical. It was binding the castle to that time period.

Good one :D

[The Last Oath]

ok, so balamb garden has a time machine as FE says, but what about Galbadia and Trabia, perhpas Galbadia does but that is the most modern yet it was still able to fly. Trabia on the other hand did not fly away from the missles and got blown up. But Trabia was built in the mountains thus should be ancient, further moer have the flying controls, but maybe it was TOO OLD, and i think we would all agree that Balamb Garden is in the middle of Trabia and Galbadia having ancinet and modern technoolgy.

[Future Esthar]

I remember a post where someone talks about the orphanage, In past is a complete, cute place, in present is a damaged place, and you then talk about the place where Ultimecia's castle is attached... If I'm right, there was a huge chain attached to ground and to the castle, if the castle is from the past, then wouldn't one part of the chain still in the ground, or in the surroundings of the orphanage?


Most nonsensical argument ever.

I thought Ulti would made the chain disappear for the purpose of not letting traces back for the sake of the Estharians.

Did you ever saw the James Bond film in which there is an evil journalist?

Compare this guy to Doctor Odine and many doors will be opened for you to understand FF8´s secrets.


Tell me, if there were Propagator survivors, where on that little ship are they hiding so well from both the team and the CC members?



On the same place lying on the ground pretending to be dead.

[Ramza Beoulve]

Most nonsensical argument ever.

I thought Ulti would made the chain disappear for the purpose of not letting traces back for the sake of the Estharians.

Did you ever saw the James Bond film in which there is an evil journalist?

Compare this guy to Doctor Odine and many doors will be opened for you to understand FF8´s secrets.

Come on, Estharians sake? Ultimecia only cared for herself!

I leave, I'm sick of this, I don't care I you want your own FF VIII world, but I will say something first:

We the players play the videogames for a joyfull moment (I do, I really don't care for others), we play the games to enjoy the characters, the history, the music, the gaming experience over all.

Every one builds his own videogame world, and have our own ideas of what really means a game, but I don't try to take others to my world, I just enjoy it.

Live your world, let me die in mine

Skyblade, Ryushikaze, Heero, see you in others threads.

[Stayin Dizzy]

In fact, give any evidence at all supporting this idea.

I'm still waiting for this

Maybe its all more compicated though, maybe odine "time traveled" with Laguana to the future and Odine got Ultimecia pregnant and she gave birth to Edea, Kiros, and Ward but the Space men tried to take them away so they went back to the past and dropped them all off in hopes that Ulti could reembody hereself in her daughter in hopes that they could get Ellone to take them all back to the past to have pancakes. This is the true story of FF8. I will follow the trend here of providing ZERO evidence from the game and tell you all that this is right

[Future Esthar]

I have no Zero evidence.I have lots of it.
If I had none I would not post it.

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

Your evidence has been only theories you have made yourself and pieces of information that is overly examined(you have a different meaning for it than the game actually has) and out of context. Many ppl here are getting tired of you not giving the evidence that you are obliged to give. You are sending bits of evidence that is not fully reasonable and are falsifiable through in-game evidence that we supply. FE, i would think over your strategy about this if I were you, but I'm not and it is your decision to do whatever.

[Skyblade]

I have no Zero evidence.I have lots of it.
If I had none I would not post it.

Wrong. What you have is a big, lengthy explanation that tells us how your theory could be possible (a lot of it makes no sense, but that doesn't matter right now). Show us one thing in the game that actually indicates at all that your theory is true. Not possible, but actually true.

[Future Esthar]

The picture of Edea,which looks like a Propagator,Zell´s picture inside Squall,the year gravings on Raine´s tomb,etc...

What have been happening is a little like this-

"Future Esthar,Show us that Fujin was on Galbadia Garden.There is no basis for that"

Future Esthar-Here it is.The screenshot were she asks about Seifer and Squall says he was dead.

"That is Ulti,not Fujin"
F.E-No,it is Fujin"

The only difference to this story is that I posted screenshots with "hard to note" details.


a lot of it makes no sense


It is impossible to make sence of my theories when one considers them independently.
To make sence of them a knowledge of the overall theory picture is needed.
And you seemed unable to do that.

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

No FE, now you are downgrading us. I will not tolerate that. You say that we have to look at your evidence independently, but you can't do that. If you look at it independently then you are seeing something that does not go with the game entirely. You are telling us to forget what the game says and to see what the evidence is without the knowledge of the game which is used to actually set the whole idea in the game. You can't look at it seperately. If you do then it is not looking at something that is included in the game. You need the knowledge in the game, all the information it tells you, to know what is fact and what is fiction and sir we have proven countless times that this evidence and these theories that you have been using and have stated true are in fact, fiction.

Also, your example of what is happening here is also a crock. Everyone knows that Fujin was on Galbadia Garden because you see her there many times. That is in-game proof. You, however, state things that, through in-game proof, are invalid, but you make it so hard on yourself that you give evidence that is very falsifiable. We do not have to do anything different, but it is you that needs to think things over and have a new approach on this.

[Ryushikaze]

The examining of evidence in isolation from context is not an examination of evidence at all.

[Ramza Beoulve]

Ok, now this is personal

You're telling us that


It is impossible to make sence of my theories when one considers them independently.
To make sence of them a knowledge of the overall theory picture is needed.
And you seemed unable to do that.

We have been considering them in the overall

Edea don't looks like a Propagator, it is a magical-infused transformation, made for get a complete analisis of where the characters are in the city, because of that, she already knowed of the presence of the team, and of Irvine trying to shoot her

The supposed scan where Zell is in Squall, is just the starting of the laser-based scan of the robot to get Squall actual position and his destination, and when the laser started, it gets like a white point over Squall's head, and we already tell you that there miss the prominent Zell's hair style

The year is just a messed up number used in any game to make it see like its real, you have seen the posters or the comics used in some games? from far it looks like real text, but when you aproach them, the text are only points put in different order, or real text with messed up letters, just like if I write "siioaorqwer", and from far it looks like real text.



"Future Esthar,Show us that Fujin was on Galbadia Garden.There is no basis for that"

Future Esthar-Here it is.The screenshot were she asks about Seifer and Squall says he was dead.

"That is Ulti,not Fujin"
F.E-No,it is Fujin"

The only difference to this story is that I posted screenshots with "hard to note" details.

Now you want to look like the martyr, when you really are the executioner?, don't make me laugh.

[Future Esthar]

It is impossible to make sence of my theories when one considers them independently.
To make sence of them a knowledge of the overall theory picture is needed.
And you seemed unable to do that.


No one understood what I mean here.

I said the overall picture NOT of the game but of MY THEORIES.


No FE, now you are downgrading us. I will not tolerate that. You say that we have to look at your evidence independently, but you can't do that. If you look at it independently then you are seeing something that does not go with the game entirely. You are telling us to forget what the game says and to see what the evidence is without the knowledge of the game which is used to actually set the whole idea in the game. You can't look at it seperately. If you do then it is not looking at something that is included in the game. You need the knowledge in the game, all the information it tells you, to know what is fact and what is fiction and sir we have proven countless times that this evidence and these theories that you have been using and have stated true are in fact, fiction.


Look at the text again.I said the exactly opposite of what you think I said.


Also, your example of what is happening here is also a crock. Everyone knows that Fujin was on Galbadia Garden because you see her there many times. That is in-game proof. You, however, state things that, through in-game proof, are invalid, but you make it so hard on yourself that you give evidence that is very falsifiable. We do not have to do anything different, but it is you that needs to think things over and have a new approach on this.

It is nonsensical because the picture is too clear.
But in my screenshots they aren´t so the example goes well.Got the idea?

[Ramza Beoulve]

No one understood what I mean here.

I said the overall picture NOT of the game but of MY THEORIES.

We cannot see only your theories, if we dod that, we where going to get out of a game.

We are talking of a complex game, not a complex theory, you cannot see only a theory if you don't see the context

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

FE, you are telling us to disregard the game when the theories are on the game itself. I know what you said so don't say i have the wrong idea. I wouldn't make a whole freaking paragraph on it. Yes, the picture is too obvious there, but that is the opposite of your theories.

[Skyblade]

No one understood what I mean here.

I said the overall picture NOT of the game but of MY THEORIES.

Unfortunately, Future Esthar, if the overall picture of your theories does not match the overall picture of the game, then your theories are incorrect. Sorry.

[Stayin Dizzy]

Unfortunately, Future Esthar, if the overall picture of your theories does not match the overall picture of the game, then your theories are incorrect. Sorry.

agreed. Seriously though FE it would make for a good story if it had absolutely anything to do with what games story was about. And I'm sure you'll sit here and say it does but well....your wrong

[Future Esthar]

But one can only see how my theories fit the game when one considers them all as a whole and the interactions between them.
It requires some intuition,analitical abilities and the ability to recognize patterns.And good memory.And the ability to handle great quantities of data at the same time.And some imagination of course.
I am not saying I mastered everything on the game.There are many things yet to discover.And I am open to the possibility that SOME of my theories could be wrong.But I think I am right in general.
It is not a question of prooving anything as per se.
It is not a surprise that only me and some other members can see these things.

[Ramza Beoulve]

But one can only see how my theories fit the game when one considers them all as a whole and the interactions between them.
It requires some intuition,analitical abilities and the ability to recognize patterns.And good memory.And the ability to handle great quantities of data at the same time.And some imagination of course.
It is not a surprise that only me and some other members can see these things.

Now you're downgrading us, we see the theories in a whole, and also we try to fit it in the game, and there is not relation, also, you're not open, that's the reason you are arguin'us

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

FE, i will have to warn you if you do not stop with these direct attacks on us making us seem inferior. We have seen these as a whole, all of your theories are practically connected as one theory is an answer or proof to another and so on and so forth, but you need the game and the knowledge in it to see them as true or false.

[Leeza]

I think that I have said this more than once already in this thread. No one is twisting your arms to come in here. Why is all this proof so important to you all? You're obviously not going to get what you seek for so instead of repeatedly asking for it, why not just forget about it and go on to something else...in another thread.

[Ryushikaze]

Well, personally, I find his claims interesting. Completely unfounded, but interesting nontheless.

Future, if you wish to get us to view the big picture of your theory, I again suggest you take a sabbatical, gather your thoughts together into the best organized way you can put them (not to be insulting, but it is occasionally hard to understand what you are saying), and collect all the evidence you are able to support your claims. No holding things back, no guessing games, no nothing. Just a comprehensive essay detailing what your claim is, what evidence there is to support your claim, and how this signifigantly affects the flow of the game. Take as long as you need, write as long an essay as you like (but please, avoid being long winded for its own sake. I've seen people do that before and it's not fun to read through), and then come back and present the essay to us all for peer review, similar to the way it happens in the modern scientific community.

[Future Esthar]

but you need the game and the knowledge in it to see them as true or false.


But I also used the game.The screenshots I posted recently are from the game.
Sorry for the downgrade.It was more of a defense against the majority.


Well, personally, I find his claims interesting. Completely unfounded, but interesting nontheless.



Many thanks.


Future, if you wish to get us to view the big picture of your theory, I again suggest you take a sabbatical, gather your thoughts together into the best organized way you can put them (not to be insulting, but it is occasionally hard to understand what you are saying), and collect all the evidence you are able to support your claims. No holding things back, no guessing games, no nothing. Just a comprehensive essay detailing what your claim is, what evidence there is to support your claim, and how this signifigantly affects the flow of the game. Take as long as you need, write as long an essay as you like (but please, avoid being long winded for its own sake. I've seen people do that before and it's not fun to read through), and then come back and present the essay to us all for peer review, similar to the way it happens in the modern scientific community.

Too big.It would require a website for that.
I prefer to post each theory from time to time.
And then link them all as I post.

Next subject:

Is Cid possessed by doc Odine?
Waiting for your reply.

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

wait...were we even done with the first subject? if you have given up on proving it then we can move on, but if you are still willing to prove its viability then we should continue with it.

[Future Esthar]

Will give up.

[Ryushikaze]

Future, You are fronting these claims. As such, you are the one required to provide evidence and explanations. You must throw out the first salvo.

[Ramza Beoulve]

Future, You are fronting these claims. As such, you are the one required to provide evidence and explanations. You must throw out the first salvo.

Well, he give up, now to the next topic and to live a little more out there

[Ryushikaze]

That's what I'm talking about. He's asking US to make the first salvo for the next topic. However, as the one making this new claim, HE is the one who must start it by presenting his evidence for the idea. If he cannot, then his claim fails by default.

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

Well, i think he wants us to explain our answer for the question of the topic at hand.

I don't think that Cid was possessed by Dr. Odine. This is because if he was the stroyline would be off. There would have been some hint that he did, a misquote like his accent came into Cid's voice at some point, Cid walking the way Odine does for a second, some mistake to give the hint that he did in fact possess Cid at some point. I haven't seen one so that is one reason down the drain.

Another, why would he do it? Doctor Odine is a manufacturerer and inventor of magical products, even ones that can suppress a sorceress' powers. He can't be working for Ulti or Adel or even Edea thanks to this fact. He wouldn't want to be ruler of the world or any powerful being. He would have mentioned something. Remember, every game doesn't leave anything unanswered really. The only explanation that he would do it is to lead the players on, but the question is why? He has no plan, no intention what so ever of killing them.

Now on to the big question here, how would Dr. Odine even have the capability of possessing anybody? We have already proved that he can not in several of these pages of this thread. FE you should be able to recall them. Also, ppl in other threads of FE's have proven that he can't use the Ellone machine thing to possess anyone. I would post more, but I need to go.

[Future Esthar]

I always thought the machine possess people automatically.
It was implied on the game.
But do you think it only enables to see the past,not possessing therefore requiring magic to do it?
I can prove you wrong with a single event on Winhill.This event is optional,that´s why you probably never triggered it.And it is an EVENT,not a picture(it even involves dialogue).
And you are wrong.Many traces of Odine´s personality can be seen on Cid.Even gestures and movements are copied.The physical similarity is also the same.In fact I use these characteristics to find Odine´s appearances through the world.

[Ramza Beoulve]

Well, lets hear that event, and see if we played it

[Zanius]

Yeah, I'm also look forward to see this, because I never heard of such event. And wow! I've been away for so long of this thread, and I never thought that this went too far... :whoa:

[Future Esthar]

I don´t remember how to trigger the event but it hapens when Laguna try to take another path back to the town square.
Laguna says:"I usually don´t take this path.It is the fairies again" or something along those lines.
I don´t know how you forgot this scene.

[Mirage]

That small dialogue is indeed spoken, but I'd say it's too short to be called an event. The "faeries" can't influence them enough to make them do something they didn't.

[Sir Bahamut]

The "faeries" are Squall and whoever else is at that point being sent inside Laguna and Co via Ellone. Nothing to do with Odine.

And pray tell, what stunning physical similarities are there between Odine and Cid which lets you deduce that Cid is being possessed by Odine?

[Ramza Beoulve]

The "faeries" are Squall and whoever else is at that point being sent inside Laguna and Co via Ellone. Nothing to do with Odine.

Agree, also, later on Laguna tells Squall they sensed something like fairies, giving them powers (Ellone sending conciusness of the team to the past trying to change the past, something that cannot happen).

Next, thats not really so optional, it really happens al the times you play through that scene, and its not a event, is just a plothole (resolved later thanks to Ellone and Laguna)

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

Cid is old. the hunching over whle walking is just a part of him aging. Don't use it. That is the only similarity i have found. Also, as many ppl have have said to you, the machine is only used ot view the past, not to control someone. The only power ellone had was to let ppl view the past. The only reason you are actually controlling Laguna and co. in the past is because if you were to just watch a scene from the past for like more than 10 minutes that would be pretty boring.

And yes, the 'faeries' are squall and co. Laguna refers to them because he feels their presence when they view the past of him. Some of his oddities that he does sometimes(going a different way) he uses them as the reason to why he is doing something different or if some luck happens to him.

[Sir Bahamut]

I should say though:

Ellones ability CAN be used to possess people. Or rather, Ellone can send you back to someone, who you can then possess; Ultimecia possessing Edea is the absolute evidence of that. However, it is likely that you need a lot of mental strength, and probably sorceress powers.

[Mirage]

I think it it's also reasonable to believe that the Junction Machine Ultimecia is in possession of can amplify the effect, making it stronger than what Ellone could do on her own.

[Ramza Beoulve]

I should say though:

Ellones ability CAN be used to possess people. Or rather, Ellone can send you back to someone, who you can then possess; Ultimecia possessing Edea is the absolute evidence of that. However, it is likely that you need a lot of mental strength, and probably sorceress powers.

Ellone can't do that, she only sends the consciousness of the person to the past.

Ultimecia possessing Edea was because Edea has Ultimecia's powers, Ultimecia has a stronger consciousness than Edea, and Ultimecia is a sorceress, she uses his magic to control Edea and to amplify the machine's power, other reason that gives her enough power to control Seifer, because Seifer was not really loyal to Edea, but to Ultimecia.


I think it it's also reasonable to believe that the Junction Machine Ultimecia is in possession of can amplify the effect, making it stronger than what Ellone could do on her own.

Same here, but the power is also amplified because of Ultimecia's powers

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

I see, and yes, ellone did not have the ability to posess anyone. If she did, she could've possessed squall and co. and actually lead them instead of having them travel everywhere. Ultimecia is a much mor epowerful sorceress than the ones that are in current time of VIII, she can have this ability. Ellon can only send conscious to the viewing of a past event. This is why squall is thinking(or talking, whatever you want to call it) when he is viewing the event at hand. If he was possessing Laguna, laguna would have looked confused since squall would have no idea where he was or who he even was in.

[Sir Bahamut]

You both seem to have misread me.

I didn't say that Ellone is capable of possessing anyone. I said that Ellones ability can be used as a tool in the process of possessing someone! I mean, Ultimecia doesn't just possess someone just like that, by snapping her fingers or whatever. No, she has to use Ellones power (in the shape of the JME) to place her consciousness inside a sorceress of the past, and THEN use her own powers to subdue that mind to her will. And it is not just the JME which can do this, which the game proves, when Ellone herself sends Ultimecia (in Rinoa) inside Adel of the past, where Ultimecia possesses Adel and casts time compression.

So Squall and Co could theoretically speaking have subdued Laguna and Co when they were inside them, but didn't do so because 1) they had no reason for trying, so they never did try, and 2) because even if they had tried, they probably needed much greater powers (eg. sorceress powers) to do so!

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

I see what you mean, and this is what we know. We knew this already, but thank you for clarifying what you said.

[Future Esthar]

I think I understand the confusion.
Ellone enables a person to get inside another and control it´s actions TO A EXTENT.
We have to understand that there are two wills taking place.Squall´s will and Laguna´s will.
Tv antenas can interfere on the movement of planes for example.
But it doesn´t mean planes didn´t have internal controls.
The same happens on FF8.
If a will wins over another you get POSSESSION.
If it don´t win you can at least influence a little(like plane interference).
But magical powers aren´t required to achieve that.


Things like death,memory loss or loosing a knight (or the love of one) can help to down the will of a person.


Cid is old. the hunching over whle walking is just a part of him aging. Don't use it. That is the only similarity i have found.

Poor excuse but better than "Characters were made similar because the programmers were lazy to retexture them" or something along these lines.
And there were much more similarities than that(physical and psychological).

I can show you screenshots to prove this and that Doctor Odine IS the Unknown King(we,the pc players had a special advantage).

[Ramza Beoulve]

I think I understand the confusion.
Ellone enables a person to get inside another and control it´s actions TO A EXTENT.
We have to understand that there are two wills taking place.Squall´s will and Laguna´s will.
Tv antenas can interfere on the movement of planes for example.
But it doesn´t mean planes didn´t have internal controls.
The same happens on FF8.
If a will wins over another you get POSSESSION.
If it don´t win you can at least influence a little(like plane interference).
But magical powers aren´t required to achieve that.


Things like death,memory loss or loosing a knight (or the love of one) can help to down the will of a person.

I already say that
Ultimecia possessing Edea was because Edea has Ultimecia's powers, Ultimecia has a stronger consciousness than Edea, and Ultimecia is a sorceress, she uses his magic to control Edea and to amplify the machine's power, other reason that gives her enough power to control Seifer, because Seifer was not really loyal to Edea, but to Ultimecia.


(we,the pc players had a special advantage). Again downgrading us? Just show the screenshot and continue.

[Future Esthar]

Ultimecia possessing Edea was because Edea has Ultimecia's powers, Ultimecia has a stronger consciousness than Edea, and Ultimecia is a sorceress, she uses his magic to control Edea and to amplify the machine's power, other reason that gives her enough power to control Seifer, because Seifer was not really loyal to Edea, but to Ultimecia.


Says,who?

Even Pinnoquio can possess Alexander the Great with a proper machine if he manage to clear his memories.
That is the main reason people can´t accept Odine as the main villain.
Their warmonger logic don´t let them accept.
People allways prefer to consider Ulti as the villain.
I am trying in vain to revert this mentality.


we,the pc players had a special advantage

On the pc version one can see the inner lines of the king ghost.Unlike on the Playstation version.
That was what I was talking about.

[Lynx]

i have no idea whats goiung on in this thread since there are 28 pages. i read a few posts and all i can say is some of you have lost your grip on reality. final fantasys werent all on the same planet. just because they might mention things that seem like it ties the games together they're really just jokes put in there to see if the gamer can catch them.

[Ramza Beoulve]

I am trying in vain to revert this mentality.

You said it, in vain


On the pc version one can see the inner lines of the king ghost.Unlike on the Playstation version.
That was what I was talking about. Sorry then, but you could clearified at first.


Even Pinnoquio can possess Alexander the Great with a proper machine if he manage to clear his memories.
That is the main reason people can´t accept Odine as the main villain.
Their warmonger logic don´t let them accept.
People allways prefer to consider Ulti as the villain.
I am trying in vain to revert this mentality.

Actually, you are the warmonger trying to change people's mind and rebel their own knowledge, trying to change their memories, their believes, their opinions, I say, live and let die. (without offense)

I prefer think Ultimecia is the one behind it all, because she created the paradox in the time proccess, trying to do a thing, create a world were only her could exist, if so, then why Odine helped the team?, the same goes for Cid.

[Emery]

wow get a LIFE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Future Esthar]

I prefer think Ultimecia is the one behind it all, because she created the paradox in the time proccess, trying to do a thing, create a world were only her could exist, if so, then why Odine helped the team?, the same goes for Cid.


Why did she wanna to compress time then?


if so, then why Odine helped the team?, the same goes for Cid.

Interesting question with interesting answer.

If Odine is from the future wouldn´t it be a risk to compress time letting people from other eras in?

Another interesting question that seem to contradict my theories.

I myself had not a complete understanding of why.Which is good.
It means there are wonderful secrets for me to discover.
So many things which contradict the "Odine is the villain" theory,isn´t it?

That is exactly were you are wrong.

I had an incomplete answer which I think it is satisfatory enough.
I think this due to Odine´s coward personality.

Imagine the picture we see at the Doctor´s lab when the resistance members planned to conceal Adel.
Odine is goes around in circles in a CLOCKWISE sense.After him is Ellone.
But in a circle we can also say Odine is after Elle.

This beautiful picture basically explains everything.

[Ramza Beoulve]

Imagine the picture we see at the Doctor´s lab when the resistance members planned to conceal Adel.
Odine is goes around in circles in a CLOCKWISE sense.After him is Ellone.
But in a circle we can also say Odine is after Elle.

Good one, but still I need to argue.

From what I remember of my childhood, when someone went after another and the another one followed the first, it was a little circle, a little close because the both wanted to get the other.

In this memory picture (I really like this scene) the circle actually is quite big, and we see Ellone following from near Dr. Odine, and if this would be in otherwise, the circle would be more closed and small.


Why did she wanna to compress time then?


create a world were only her could exist

[Future Esthar]

It was a symbol.
She is near Odine because He wasn´t originally after her(on the real thing).
He goes after her after she pursue him(on the real thing).
If you consider that Odine don´t wanna to participate the plan to defeat Adel because his research would be kaput we get a more complete synbolism:

Laguna gets angry and sent Ward after him along with Elle.Of course it was in a kiddy way.But there is a strong symbolism here.


create a world were only her could exist

And why would she wanna that?

My reasons for Odine creating WOTC are far better.

[The Last Oath]

so all of this evidence FE has put together, you mind summarising it all maybe people could undertsand it better than since there's been almost 850 post.haha

[Ramza Beoulve]

And why would she wanna that?

An obvious idea of getting all powered and create then her own world? maybe be the new Hyne in the new world? the answer is out there... in SE minds

[Future Esthar]

My idea also makes sense,so?

[Ramza Beoulve]

Default
My idea also makes sense,so?

Then is a draw :D

[Future Esthar]

It was always.You get angred because you thought I was forcing my views into you.That is not the case.

[Zanius]

The problem with all this is not looking for proofs about this or that theory. All that we can do is to play the game and see things that could make sense and things that don’t make sense. Which bring us to one and simple question: did the Square Enix left some details to be explained or not?

I believe that we can see the story line with some other perspectives and that’s the coolest thing about all that. :)

[Ryushikaze]

The reason why Ultimecia wished for a time compressed world was so she could devour it, rearrange it, and regurgitate it, but with her as an all powerful deific figure.

Perfectly sensible reason, if highly insane.

[Ramza Beoulve]

It was always.You get angred because you thought I was forcing my views into you.That is not the case.

I didn't get angred, if that could happened, then we would still arguing about that :D


The problem with all this is not looking for proofs about this or that theory. All that we can do is to play the game and see things that could make sense and things that don’t make sense. Which bring us to one and simple question: did the Square Enix left some details to be explained or not?

I believe that we can see the story line with some other perspectives and that’s the coolest thing about all that.

Agree:)

[Future Esthar]

Soul_Hunter pretty much said everything.

By the way if what you are saying is true,why didn´t Hyne appear to stop Ulti?

It would be like if the Devil tries to compress time to take God´s place.God would stop it.

[Ramza Beoulve]

Well... Hyne's powers are in sorceress, and sorceress gets their powers from other dying sorceress, and this magic is supposed to be originally from Hyne, then actually Hyne is dead. Hyne was a living being, not a god.

[Zanius]

Hyne is a sorcerer and not sorceress.

Besides, the game refers Hyne as a powerful being, like a God. This event is showed on the disk 3 when you visit the White SeeD ship on the second time, where explains that Hyne was the creator of all the human beings. And also there are no proof that Hyne's dead.

[Ramza Beoulve]

Hyne is a sorcerer and not sorceress.
Actually, I never say Hyne was a sorceress, I just say Hyne's power are in sorceress


Besides, the game refers Hyne as a powerful being, like a God. This event is showed on the disk 3 when you visit the White SeeD ship on the second time, where explains that Hyne was the creator of all the human beings. And also there are no proof that Hyne's dead.
She is a powerful being, she created the human beings.I agree.

You already said it, like a God, not a God.

And there is also no proof that Hyne is alive, what is your point?

[Zanius]

Actually, I never say Hyne was a sorceress, I just say Hyne's power are in sorceress

Yeah, I miss understood that... my bad... :D


You already said it, like a God, not a God.

I made a quote from the game. Hyne is referred as a powerful being similar to a God. But Hyne can be seen as a God, although there are a lot of superstitions in the middle of his story. If Hyne have the power to create humans, or having the ability to create life itself, it means that he can be a God, because we don’t know how far his powers are.


And there is also no proof that Hyne is alive, what is your point?

In this I don't have much of a point like you don’t have any as well. To explain this better, Hyne could be alive or Hyne could be dead, and all this are only speculations. :)

Like I said in the other post, this could be one of so many events in the game that could not have the proper explanation.

In conclusion we don’t have enough details to tell this is true or this is real. :D

[Ramza Beoulve]

In conclusion we don’t have enough details to tell this is true or this is real. :D

Agree :D

[Zanius]

And with all this, I'm sure that Future Esthar has also something to say about that. :D

And your signature is awesome! :cool:

[Ramza Beoulve]

And with all this, I'm sure that Future Esthar has also something to say about that.

Yup, lets wait until he says something


And your signature is awesome!

Gee, thanks, I made it :)

[Future Esthar]

It is implied in the game that Hyne´s most powerful body half scaped.The old man at Balamb says to the girl "He must be watching you now" implying that it is not impossible for Hyne to be alive.

[Zanius]

So it's most likely that Hyne could be alive, and I believe that his influence in the story is more important than looking for proofs of his survival... I mean if he’s alive or not.

[Future Esthar]

I already told you who Hyne is,don´t I?

[Zanius]

Yeah, but I'll keep mouth shut and we still need to work with that ideas. :D

[Future Esthar]

They already know.

[Zanius]

Oh really? Ok... er... let's just move on then... :D

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

Man, i wanted to put something in earlier in this page but i was too busy. oh well, can't change the past. Let us move on to whatever FE has in store for us. :D

[Zanius]

Man, i wanted to put something in earlier in this page but i was too busy. oh well, can't change the past. Let us move on to whatever FE has in store for us. :D

You still can put it! :D

Or we can call Ellone and she can help you. :bgl:

[Future Esthar]

lol
You don´t believe our characters are Propagators but Gf´s don´t believe they are human either.
We know many Garden students battled Ifrit before Quistis and Squall.Which means that at least these two aren´t humans.

[Zanius]

Yeah, but there's something that is not right... I mean how come our characters changed their form from Propagators into normal human beings?

[Ryushikaze]

FE, I think you're taking Ifrit's praise a mite too literally.

[Future Esthar]

Why?
And what is the meaning of "praise a mite".

[Ramza Beoulve]

Yeah, but there's something that is not right... I mean how come our characters changed their form from Propagators into normal human beings?

Agree


Why?
And what is the meaning of "praise a mite". Means that you are giving a high reputation to Ifrit like an invicible foe, a foe that anyone can beat... I you remember something, everyone that went to Dollet to the war had already beaten Ifrit, because was one part of the Seed exam for Balamb, and Squall was late because he fighted Seifer

[Ryushikaze]

Actually, had I ended the sentence there, it would be 'praising a mite', but I meant he was taking Ifrit's comments too literally. The same goes true of a lot of the words of the defeated in these games.

[Future Esthar]

Not only Ifrit but many other very strong GF say things like that.
By the way,the other students participated on the prerequisite but didn´t beat him.
Otherwise they would get him as a GF lefting Squall unable to get him.

What´s the rush with the transformation thing?
If you wanna to know PARTIALLY how they transform go see the FMV where Edea transforms.

[Ramza Beoulve]

Not only Ifrit but many other very strong GF say things like that.


"From legends to reality is a long way"


What´s the rush with the transformation thing?
If you wanna to know PARTIALLY how they transform go see the FMV where Edea transforms.

If you say so, but still there is no transformation from a Propagator and thas a Magic related transformation, like all other from other games.

and still, there's no transformation from the characters to a Propagator

[Ryushikaze]

Not only Ifrit but many other very strong GF say things like that.

And I'm saying that you may be taking their incredulous words without the necessary grain of salt.


What´s the rush with the transformation thing?
If you wanna to know PARTIALLY how they transform go see the FMV where Edea transforms.

Which does not show a transformation from anything resembling a Propagator. As said before, she looks more like a red chocobo than a propagator.

[Zanius]

Still, it confuses me, because if you say that Edea suffered a transformation from a Propagator to a normal human being, then when that transformation happened with the other characters?

Plus: how could the Propagators co-exist when they were at the Ragnarok? I’m talking about Squall and Rinoa. Because the Ragnarok was at the space and not on Earth, between the holographic walls…

At that time the Propagators were defeated by Squall and Rinoa. Can you please explain this?

[Future Esthar]

You had been out for a long time,Soul_Hunter.
The answer to your questions were written on this thread.


If you say so, but still there is no transformation from a Propagator and thas a Magic related transformation, like all other from other games.

and still, there's no transformation from the characters to a Propagator

The characters weren´t possessed and losed their memory,that´s why they don´t transform.
And who said the transformation didn´t involve magic?


And I'm saying that you may be taking their incredulous words without the necessary grain of salt.


"Too good for a human"

I am sure Gf´s had a long experience in fighting people.
Garden dispatches Seed all over the world.
And some Gf remains there until our characters arrive.
12 years is much for battling humans isn´t it?
And they say "too good for a human" exactly to the ones who are supposed to defeat them(and they say it at low HP rightly a little before the battle finishes)?

[Bart's Friend Milhouse]

FE you seem to have a theory for just about everything maybe you can answer this:
Who says "You are indeed an interesting one brimming with passion" after the Bahamut fight?

[Ramza Beoulve]

The characters weren´t possessed and losed their memory,that´s why they don´t transform.
And who said the transformation didn´t involve magic?

I say involve magic, actually

[Zanius]

You had been out for a long time,Soul_Hunter.
The answer to your questions were written on this thread.

Ok, I'll go have a look... but if I don't like it... I'll bring this up again! :mad2: :D

[Future Esthar]

Bahamut himself.He find them too interesting(for a human).

[Ramza Beoulve]

Yeah, but Bahamut is the king of dragons, it has his reasons, but not all of them, actually you don't get all the GF of a battle.

For example Phoenix, you never battle him, neither Eden, Carbuncle or Siren, and they are a great help to the team (in my case, Eden Carbuncle and Siren make a great team with my Diablos and my Cerberus)

[Future Esthar]

But I am sure they are weaker than the ones you get.
And Bahamut is the king of GF,not of the dragons.
He,being the king is wise.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

You were asked to only have one active theory thread at a time. Which one do you want closed, this or the new one?

Edit: OK, start a new one and old one gets closed. That's how it'll be.

[Ryushikaze]

Might I just state that "The king is wise" is an incredibly unsupported position?

Or that Bahamut might simply have a poor opinion of humanity?

I note that you take Dialogue uber alles when it suits you FE.

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

Let me go back to some of the things:

1. transformation fo characters:one thing to say: their ancestors were the centra right? not the propogators. propogators are basically aliens. they are from a different world. transforming in any show or game that has ever been seen(at least permanent transformations) have never caused memory loss, and i don't think square is much for changing trends. if the propogators were from earth, ppl would have known about them. no one does in the game. in conclusion, the characters of VIII do not transform or ever did.

2. GF quotes: there is nothing really to say besides the fact that they are just stating how talented, strong, and different the characters are from other humans they have met/seen. no, i don't mean different as in they are from another race FE.