Goth Music / Culture

[Vincent Valentine]

(Whee! My first post in... nearly four years! :D)

PLEASE NOTE: This thread is intended for discussion on things that actually exist within the real Goth genre/subculture. Simply put; If you've never heard of at least half the bands listed below (just examples, obviously not a full list), please don't even bother posting.

The Cure
Dead Can Dance
The Sisters of Mercy
Fields of the Nephilim
Siouxsie & The Banshees
The Crüxshadows
Christian Death
Joy Division
Bauhaus

What is not goth:

NIN
Slipknot
Nightwish
Evanescense
Cradle of Filth
Marilyn Manson
My Chemical Romance
And all the other obvious examples...

If you believe any of the above to be gothic bands, then please don't post. Go out and educate yourself about the culture, and then we can talk. :tongue:

I won't allow this thread to degenerate into a bitch-fest about the attitudes of angst ridden teenagers who label themselves "Goth", without any true understanding of the label. If you wish to critizise the label (as some undoubtadly will), do some research before doing so. If this threads starts getting spamed in such a fashion, I would ask the moderators to please close it for me.

Opinions on the culture and music genre are fine, as long as they're well informed (and remotely civil) ones.

-------------------------------------------------

If there are real followers of the goth subculture in here, or even just fans of the music genre, make your faces known. :D

Below are a few questions, just to get the discussion ball rolling, but free free to add your own two cents on anything else you feel may be relevant to the subject matter.

Who are your favourite bands?

What are your favourite songs?

What is your local scene like, if you have one?

What are your views on the modern media's butchering and mis-informed views of the sub-culture, and what represents it?

[GhandiOwnsYou]

damn, throwbacks. how long has it been since you showed up around here? WB

have to love Joy Division and Bauhaus, the cure is quite a bit too poppy at times for me, but stuff like "Burn" brings it all back to lovely. the whole Industrial-Goth genre has been a main interest for a while now, lately theres been a lot of Skinny Puppy and Wumpscutt. But right now, and i'll probably get negative respect points for it, It's all NIN. They're playing richmond tuesday, and my happy arse will be right in the middle of the pit. love em or hate em for being to popular or not goth enough, the music is incredible.

and as a last note, good luck keeping the hate and spite from descending upon this thread in an awesome wave...

[Madame Adequate]

My parents were really into goth music, so I grew up with a lot of it. I didn't know Siouxsie would be classed as Goth, though. Just me. :p Anyway, I love her, and I like Joy Division and Bauhaus as well. But that's about all.

Except those guys from Hawaii, but I have no idea what they're called. Totally great though.

[jrgen]

Yes, I like bands like Janus, Lacrimosa, Adversus, Samsas Traum, Umbra Et Imago, Eisheilig, Dorn, ASP and Letzte Instanz. Some of these are gothic rock, some are gothic metal. I'm not particulary fond of any of the bands you listed, so I suppose I'm not a true goth. Although I do live in the geographical area Gothland/Gothia.

[dante the demon prince]

cradle of filth the best thing about being goth

[Jsb01]

I like otep

[dante the demon prince]

i.c.p. insane clown posse

[Jsb01]

they are okay, I just don't like the Juggalos...

[dante the demon prince]

i love adema to and marilyn manson and alice cooper

[Jsb01]

Marliyn Manson used to be one of my favorites

[dante the demon prince]

he got married and it is my dream wedding i may be male but ive always dreemed of a black wedding

[Vincent Valentine]

i love adema to and marilyn manson and alice cooper
I'm sorry to be so blunt about this dante, but none of the bands you've mentioned are goth bands.

I would suggest you do some research.

Goth is music based sub-culture, born out of the ashes of the punk movement in the late 1980's. It's a very specific style of music, based heavily (but not excluvisly) on elements from industrial, EBM and darkwave music.

Have you ever listened to any of the bands I listed in my first post? I would suggest you please do, and look up on the true definition of the culture (and not the modern media obsessed one), before you true the label around so frankly.


Yes, I like bands like Janus, Lacrimosa, Adversus, Samsas Traum, Umbra Et Imago, Eisheilig, Dorn, ASP and Letzte Instanz. Some of these are gothic rock, some are gothic metal. I'm not particulary fond of any of the bands you listed, so I suppose I'm not a true goth. Although I do live in the geographical area Gothland/Gothia.
Oh, the bands I listed were just the most obvious, generic examples, to help make the point of the thread clear. It wasn't my intention to make it a comprehensive list. :)

I'll admit that I haven't heard of most of the bands you've listened, but I would certainly be interested in doing so. Could you describe one or two of them for me, so I'll know what I'm listening to? :)


I didn't know Siouxsie would be classed as Goth, though.
Possibly not, but there are accepted as a "goth" band mainly because they were of the true forefathers (mothers?) of the culture. They helped start it all.

[dante the demon prince]

ok i hate punk so me no more post here

[VorpalCyberWolf]

I'm actually not that familiar with Goth music, never knew what to hunt down (Granted I was always educated enough to know that there is a Real Goth Culture, etc and that the bands in the above "Not Goth" Category were indeed Not Goth, so theres a start at the least.)

Since I am always into broadening my Musical Horizon I would like to check it out. Are there any bands in particular that I should start listening to first?

[Crushed Hope]

Lacrimosa and Dead Can Dance are essentially all that Goth music has that is worth listening to.

[Captain Maxx Power]

At least Goth's easier to tolerate than Emo.

[Jsb01]

At least Goth's easier to tolerate than Emo.
Dude you are right about so many things.

[Vincent Valentine]

Since I am always into broadening my Musical Horizon I would like to check it out. Are there any bands in particular that I should start listening to first?
The ones I listed in my first post are some of the most well known examples, and tend to be the ones people going for first when trying to get into the scene. Though I personally find Bauhaus to be mindnumbingly, tumour inducingly dull 90% of the time, I do have a fondness for The Sisters of Mercy and The Crüxshadows.

If your internet connection can handle it, check out these MySpace communities for the two bands. It'll give you some idea of what they sound like.

The Sisters of Mercy (http://www.myspace.com/sistersofmercy1980)

The Crüxshadows (http://www.myspace.com/cruxshadows1)
(Stay away from Marilyn My Bitterness though. It's angstiness will make your eyes bleed.)


At least Goth's easier to tolerate than Emo.
What isn't?

[Wizdumb]

Erm, The Cure is no where near the gothic sub-culture. In fact, I believe it to be more emo then anything.

It's funny what classifies as gothic music really. For example, anything with a piano and some form of actual melody would make the music gothic. Examples are Evanescence and Nightwish even though they lean towards melodic metal they still hold gothic undertones.

I refuse to listen to Nightwish's recent new albums after fireing their beautiful voice.

[Crushed Hope]

Erm, The Cure is no where near the gothic sub-culture. In fact, I believe it to be more emo then anything.

It's funny what classifies as gothic music really. For example, anything with a piano and some form of actual melody would make the music gothic. Examples are Evanescence and Nightwish even though they lean towards melodic metal they still hold gothic undertones.

I refuse to listen to Nightwish's recent new albums after fireing their beautiful voice.

Even though she was not doing it for the love of music? She was doing it for money, not for passion.

[Crushed Hope]

Well, though Goth definitely was born out of Punk, with bands like The Cure, it would be naive to say that bands like Cradle of Filth aren't Goth. It's true that music changes, and Goth became associated more and more with Heavy Metal music as the years went by, until Goth and Death Metal were practically the same thing. Thus bands like Cradle of Filth.
But I definitely aggree with the Slipknot part, in fact it doesn't even need to be said. Anyone who thinks Slipknot are at all Goth is seriously depraved. (I could go into a Slipknot rant, but I won't.)

So, being a "modern" Goth, I would have to say that my favourite band of that genre is Cradle of Filth, even though they are more Death Metal than Goth.

I just love it when people don't know what they are talking about.

Cradle of Filth have NOT and NEVER have had anything to do with Death metal. Nor black metal. They are and always have been Gothic metal, which despite similarities in names HAS nothing to do with Goth Rock.

[Leeza]

CH: Do not take this any further. You too, Darth Ultimortal.

[Avarice-ness]

First off.. Not here to make my face known. =] Although I love Opeth to death, I still don't merge into the Black and Death metal genres. <3.
Now.. For all you people who think NIN and Marilyn Manson is 'Goth' music. I hope you all learn to gets some brains going on here. Marilyn Manson just wants to sell cd's and make propaganda out of his Idea's and ability to be a culture Icon. Alright I do <3 Mr. Manson. I have to defend the people on this one, that Manson -is- industrial, and he's nothing 'goth', sure the people with the stereotypical 'goth' outlook listen to such music, doesn't actually make the music in general 'goth.'
So how about we don't stereotype the actions of music to the actions of people who listen to the music? Kay? ^^
NIN pure industrial metal.. been around since the late 80's/early 90's.
I for one can't even believe MCR is thought of as a 'goth' band and it makes my eyes crawl out of their socket to even read that. ; ;
Not bashing 'goth' music at all, I can easily listen to alot of music, My methods of getting to it are slim to none though. I'm just here to clear some thing's up on people who listen to music to either gain a stereotype, try to be 'cool', or not look into something before they say Mr. Manson and NIN are 'Goth'
*Mumbles some about how Vincent needs to keep these people straight on their music smarts, then hops off with her Trent Reznor plushie in hand*
<3.

[Edit: *drags self back in* Okay.. just saw something... Technical definition for 'Goth' as fashion goes is someone who wears clothing of the gothic times, renesance, the dark ages, all that fun stuff... now.. if we put that into the musical sense.. The music then was always very choral and operaic (not opera, operatic) which is incorporated into alot of 'goth' music, besides the growling sounds, the composition of most 'goth' bands can rival none other, for the fact they actually take some time and right -music- into their music... Do you know what I mean? O o;;; Oh.. and Black and Death metal have the same basic structure in them just as 'gothic' metal does. CoF is Black, look at the specs and what not, It may have icons of operatic and choral outlooks, but there is alot more likenesses to black then there are to 'gothic'
If you took out lyrics and singing, all the elements of music in the song, can easily be left alone, for it is true well written and worked out music, as it was in the gothic times. NOW! Stop!!! STEREOTYPING!!! *melts and swishes off with Little Trent*

[Wizdumb]

QUOTE]

Even though she was not doing it for the love of music? She was doing it for money, not for passion.


I'll have to research on that bit of information. It was her husbands doing. My apologizes.

Dumb bastard.

[jrgen]

No band could really be considered merely gothic metal. It is a way too vague term to use without a description of what the actual metal part of the music is like.

And I've never understood why the word goth has become associated with art and architecture of the dark ages and sometimes later. Who decided to call that gothic, and why?

[Vincent Valentine]

Thank you Avarice-ness! Marry me? :tongue:

Crushed Hope and Ultimortal: Please guys, keep my thread civil if you're going to argue your point.

Lets clarify a few points that have been raised so far.

1) Cradle of Filth are not goth. And they most definately aren't goth metal. Their music bares no similarites to the goth style of music, which as already stated, is an idustrial derived sound that blends some elements from EBM and darkwave music. In general. There are always exceptions, of course.

2)The Cure are a goth band. They are also a huge part of the goth subculture. This is a basic fact. Anyone would has spent ten minutes in the culutre knows this.

3) Trent Reznor is a known goth, but this does not make his music goth. It is industrial.


No band could really be considered merely gothic metal. It is a way too vague term to use without a description of what the actual metal part of the music is like.
I have to disagree with that. Ever heard of Tristania (http://www.tristania.com)? They are, and always have been defined as a goth (not gothic) metal band. They music derived elements from the goth genre, but it is very clearly a metal sound. There are other goth metal bands out there, though I've haven't had to the chance to get into them.

(I'm one of the few goths who accept goth metal as a legitimate genre. Many don't)


And I've never understood why the word goth has become associated with art and architecture of the dark ages and sometimes later. Who decided to call that gothic, and why?
I think you may have your terms mixed up slightly. Gothic architecture from architecture from the dark ages, as you are correct in stated. Definiton of something GOTHIC tends to refer to something that is dark, evil looking or grotesque to most people's eyes. Since goth music tends to focus almost exclusively on dark imagery and sounds, it gained that name to describe the genre.

[VorpalCyberWolf]

First off.. Not here to make my face known. =] Although I love Opeth to death, I still don't merge into the Black and Death metal genres. <3.
Now.. For all you people who think NIN and Marilyn Manson is 'Goth' music. I hope you all learn to gets some brains going on here. Marilyn Manson just wants to sell cd's and make propaganda out of his Idea's and ability to be a culture Icon. Alright I do <3 Mr. Manson. I have to defend the people on this one, that Manson -is- industrial, and he's nothing 'goth', sure the people with the stereotypical 'goth' outlook listen to such music, doesn't actually make the music in general 'goth.'
So how about we don't stereotype the actions of music to the actions of people who listen to the music? Kay? ^^
NIN pure industrial metal.. been around since the late 80's/early 90's.
I for one can't even believe MCR is thought of as a 'goth' band and it makes my eyes crawl out of their socket to even read that. ; ;
Not bashing 'goth' music at all, I can easily listen to alot of music, My methods of getting to it are slim to none though. I'm just here to clear some thing's up on people who listen to music to either gain a stereotype, try to be 'cool', or not look into something before they say Mr. Manson and NIN are 'Goth'
*Mumbles some about how Vincent needs to keep these people straight on their music smarts, then hops off with her Trent Reznor plushie in hand*
<3.

[Edit: *drags self back in* Okay.. just saw something... Technical definition for 'Goth' as fashion goes is someone who wears clothing of the gothic times, renesance, the dark ages, all that fun stuff... now.. if we put that into the musical sense.. The music then was always very choral and operaic (not opera, operatic) which is incorporated into alot of 'goth' music, besides the growling sounds, the composition of most 'goth' bands can rival none other, for the fact they actually take some time and right -music- into their music... Do you know what I mean? O o;;; Oh.. and Black and Death metal have the same basic structure in them just as 'gothic' metal does. CoF is Black, look at the specs and what not, It may have icons of operatic and choral outlooks, but there is alot more likenesses to black then there are to 'gothic'
If you took out lyrics and singing, all the elements of music in the song, can easily be left alone, for it is true well written and worked out music, as it was in the gothic times. NOW! Stop!!! STEREOTYPING!!! *melts and swishes off with Little Trent*

Well Spoken. I love it when someone can be into different kinds of music, but know all of those different roots and influences each take.

I have always felt every band is it's own Genre in a way, but sometimes culture and genre take some into categories. Music History is sort of like a big tree that just splits out with endless amounts of branches with each new sound and each new experimentation. Ever changing and ever growing.

I just personally havent had a chance to get exposed to Goth Music, I have noticed it is almost like Jazz in the sense that you have to know what you are looking for before you start looking, you know?

Granted everyone has things they like and things they don't like, but when someone can acknowledge this simple concept of music with an open mind, they definately earn my respect as a lover of music.



Oh, and Vincent, Thanks. I checked out the links and dig the sound, I'll dig up some more soon for sure.

[GhandiOwnsYou]

Ah... the NIN rants, how i had waited...

Yah, NIN is definitely not what I would reference as a quintessential Goth band, as was stated before, there is infinitely more industrial and angst-rock than anything in the music. however, at the least, I've always considered the more melodic tracks to be at least reminscent of the gothic style.

I hate to compare apples to... well, something that is definitely not an apple, but anyway. Take a NIN track like, say, The Frail, and compare the classical influences within to something like, say Bauhaus's Hollow hills.

*in inherent rebuttles, please take note I'm making a reference, not to NIN as GOTH, but as Industrial with gothic influences and moments.

[Alive-Cat]

Personally I don't like this "Goth" music very much. I prefer the kind of music that most of the world classes as Goth, but indeed an ignorant world this is, so I've got no reason to believe it. :D

[Crushed Hope]

Cradle of Filth are not goth. And they most definately aren't goth metal. Their music bares no similarites to the goth style of music, which as already stated, is an idustrial derived sound that blends some elements from EBM and darkwave music. In general. There are always exceptions, of course.

Of course they are not Goth. They are Gothic metal, the thing is, as I believe I had said Goth rock and Gothic metal are only similar in name. Cradle of Filth may take some very small influences from black metal, but at the core they are what is refered to in the metal community as Gothic metal.

(I'm one of the few goths who accept goth metal as a legitimate genre. Many don't)

Which is good, because those that don't accept it as a legit genre are ignorant of metal.

[Vincent Valentine]

Cradle of Filth are not goth. And they most definately aren't goth metal. Their music bares no similarites to the goth style of music, which as already stated, is an idustrial derived sound that blends some elements from EBM and darkwave music. In general. There are always exceptions, of course.

Of course they are not Goth. They are Gothic metal, the thing is, as I believe I had said Goth rock and Gothic metal are only similar in name. Cradle of Filth may take some very small influences from black metal, but at the core they are what is refered to in the metal community as Gothic metal.

(I'm one of the few goths who accept goth metal as a legitimate genre. Many don't)

Which is good, because those that don't accept it as a legit genre are ignorant of metal.

Darling... none of that was directed at you. I wasn't arguing the validity of what you were saying in the slighest.

[Crushed Hope]

Cradle of Filth are not goth. And they most definately aren't goth metal. Their music bares no similarites to the goth style of music, which as already stated, is an idustrial derived sound that blends some elements from EBM and darkwave music. In general. There are always exceptions, of course.

Of course they are not Goth. They are Gothic metal, the thing is, as I believe I had said Goth rock and Gothic metal are only similar in name. Cradle of Filth may take some very small influences from black metal, but at the core they are what is refered to in the metal community as Gothic metal.

(I'm one of the few goths who accept goth metal as a legitimate genre. Many don't)

Which is good, because those that don't accept it as a legit genre are ignorant of metal.

Darling... none of that was directed at you. I wasn't arguing the validity of what you were saying in the slighest.

Haha >_>;; *runs*

Alright so ... uh. I like Dead Can Dance and Lacrimosa, are there any similar artists I should check out that I may like?