Ideas on Jenova's Role

[Aralith]

The game FFVII is one of the most intricately designed FF's and it has one of the best (and consequentially most controversial) plot of any game I know. Though many aspects of the game have been debated quite a bit, by far the one that gets the most heat is:

Was it Jenova or Sephiroth in control?

I assert that it was Sephiroth. I say this not because I'm just some fanboy who listens to everything the UOG says. I do have evidence to back this up. First, in Shinra HQ, Jenova does not have a head and is therefore rendered immobile. At least, she isn't able to move on her own. It is Sephiroth's will that causes her to move around. Now, one arguement I've heard against this is that the Masamune blade Sephiroth carries with him can only be wielded by him, not only that but where could it possibly have come from.

Well, the hole with that arguement, is that Jenova probably took a small part of herself and altered her appearance. Or should I say Sephiroth made her to do this to make it look like it was him. We know from the game that Jenova has the ability to shapeshift, so this is a pretty valid assertion. The other hole is that if that is the real Masamune blade, then who was wielding it? Sephiroth's real body is being held in the Northern Crater in a Lifestream crystal.

Another arguement commonly used against my theory is that Sephiroth did not recognize Cloud at all on the boat to Junon. Let's not forget though, that this is Sephiroth we're talking about. The first time that you enter Northern Crater, Sephiroth tells Cloud the "truth" about his creation. Of course, we all find out that this is a lie later on in the game. Well, a half-lie. Truth and lies mixed. Generally, yes, someone will recognize the person that tried to kill them, but not if they're purposely trying to decieve that person. Cloud still thinks Sephiroth is dead and Sephiroth wants him to be unsure of what happened that day in Nibelheim to make it easier for him to control Cloud.

Which brings me to my next point. Jenova's only true instinct is destroy. This pretty much ix-nays her from being a sentient life-form. Though cunning in the way she can cause destruction, still all just based on instinct. She would have no reason to take the form of a person who everyone, especially Cloud, believes to be dead. While it's true that Cloud does carry Jenova cells within him, he has no other personal connection to Jenova. Sephiroth, on the other hand, floated around in the Lifestream for a few years with her head. It is stated in the game (can't remember where, sorry) that Sephiroth floated around in the Lifestream gathering the knowledge and power of the Ancients. Wouldn't it also make sense that he gathered the knowledge and power of Jenova? Had Jenova been in control, she would have tried to appear to the party as someone that they could trust, not a figure that would plant seeds of doubt in Cloud's head.

The connection between Aeris and Sephiroth brings up some interesting information. Sephiroth believes himself to be an Ancient because Professor Gast wrongly identified Jenova as an Ancient. Also, Sephiroth thinks that he is the son of Jenova (to an extent he is, but he has no direct relation to her). The death of Aeris was not just to try and stop Holy from being summoned, but I think it was kind of a pride thing for Sephiroth. I belive (and this is my own personal theory; it is supported by almost no in-game facts, just a lot of experience with the human psyche) that Sephiroth saw Aeris as a someone trying to take away his glory of leading "Mother" to the Promised Land. He couldn't let Aeris take that away from him.

Like I mentioned before, Cloud has no personal relation to Jenova, and so it is unlikely that she would be able to use him as a puppet. We're pretty sure that Sephiroth was the human being with the highest concentration of Jenova cells present in him to ever exist. Since Sephiroth was a sentient being and Jenova wasn't, his will to live and not just survive would be much stronger than hers. He desperately wants to break out of the mako crystal he is in, and until Jenova is reawakened, this cannot happen.

I think that when Cloud came within close proximity to Jenova in Shinra HQ, that it somehow reactivated her cells for Sephiroth to control again. This is also when Cloud starts to fall under the control of Sephiroth some. I theorize that it was like a small-scale Jenova Reunion, that reactivated the cells in both of them. Because Sephiroth has such a high concentration of Jenova cells within him, he can manipulate others that carry Jenova cells to do what he wants. Well, obviously the largest concentration of these cells would be in Jenova herself, so that's who he chose to control.

These are the arguements I have for why it was Sephiroth in control and not Jenova. And I do want to take this time to point out that the UOG also says this. Please, post your own theories, and if you have any substantial evidence that would refute mine, I'd like to hear it.

[NeoCracker]

for your first Argument Its really hard to say how much power Jenova has without her head, so that seems up to speculation to me.

For the Masamune blade, if Jenova has sephiroth its seems a safe assumption that she is able to read his mind to some extent, thus using information gathered from Sephiroth she could give power to the one that killed Shinra, allowing it knowledge to use the masamune.

As for the cloud thing, Sephiroth might not recognize cloud anyway. The only time I remember Sephiroth getting a clear view of clouds face is after cloud stabbed him, and I don't think a guys vision is going to be very clear at that point in time. So either way its not surprising that Sephiroth didn't recognize cloud. If Sephiroth is in control he probably realized who Cloud was shortly after their encounter. If its JEnova she proabably figured it out after probing Sephiroths mind. So that one could go either way.

And where did you get the Idea Jenova isn't Sentient? She used her power to manipulate an entire race, the Antients, in order to destroy them. This goes beyond pure destructive instint. In addition she plans to use the planet to travel to other planets and destroy them. She seems sentient to me, just she hates life for some reason.


And why would Jenova appear as someone they could trust when she could accomplish the same thing and plant seeds of dought? If someone begins to dought themselves like cloud did, they break down like cloud did. Causing your enemies to dought can be a very powerful weapon.

And the hole Aeris Sephiroth thing, just no. If I remember Sephiroth figures out that Jenova is no anctient. That would eliminate your theory of why he killed Aeris. To stop holy is the only real explanation as to why he would kill her.

If Jenova is in control she could control cloud, just as all of the she would have controlled all the clones that came to her. If its sephiroth the same could be said, so that argument doesn't help either side.

If your arguing Sephiroth controls Jenova cells due to his High concentration that argument greatly fails, as Jenova herself would easilly have a far higher concentration of them, giving her greater power than Sephiroth.

Personally Sephiroths goals and attitude seem a little inconsistant to me, so I'm led to the idea that there may be a bit of a power struggle going on. I had another Idea posted in another thread somewhere, but I don't feel like reposting that one.

[Griff]

Jenova could have easilly taken Sephiroth's form after getting knowledge of the past from Cloud in the short time they were close to each other in Shinra HQ, just like she did with the ancients. We are even told she usually takes the image of dead people the people she's using know ("She came to us in the form of our dead friends and relatives"). While Sephiroth was not a friend or relative of Cloud, Jenova would have probably seen him as the easiest form to manipulate Cloud in (ie. getting the black materia). This brings me to my next point, Jenova's plan was to destroy all life on the planet and use it's remnants as a vessel, Sephiroth's plan was to absorb the lifestream and become a "god". The problem with Sephiroth's plan as far as meteor is involved is that it doesn't simply "wound" the planet, it DESTROYS the planet. No planet equals no lifestream equals no godlike powers for Sephy. It does however equal no life on planet, nothing left but remnants, and vessel for Jenova. this also helps explain why Sephiroth/Jenova would be as far away from the actual point of impact (Midgar) as possible. If it was Sephiroth's will holding back holy he would at least leave his physical body (Jenova) somewhere close to Midgar for easy transfer to, whereas having Jenova in the crater with him means having to walk out of the crater, get to the hole in the planet, and absorb (assuming the planet did somehow survive the impact).

[TRANS_AM409]

I think that sephiroth is in control but he has such a large concentration of the jenova cells that he wants the same thing as her to destroy all life and use earth as a ship to do the same thing in another solor system but he seems to think and act on his one because he also wants infinite power he told cloud that when meteor struck and all the life stream came to fix the wound he would be at the center and absorb it all and become a god, jenova on the other hand just wants to bring death, destruction, and caos

[Amaru]

Bah. Another thread?

Check out the 'Jenova and Sephiroth' and the 'Jenova Thesis' threads for my own opinions on the matter. It was Sephiroth all the way...

[TRANS_AM409]

yes i agree

[sub zero]

i agree that sephys will could be controlling jenova (see my theory in the complate jenova theses) but thats the only thing i agree on in your theory.

[Aralith]

Don't get me wrong. I believe Jenova had a pretty good influence on Sephiroth, but even so he consciously made the decisions to do what he did. This is evidenced by the line in Advent Children, when he talks about using the planet as a vessel and find his "shining future". This time, he does want to destroy the Planet and use it as Jenova would for a vessel (I believe that this is still Seph talking, just with some influence from "Mother), however, he is not bent on destroying the new found planet, but instead making it a place to revive the Ancients. I don't think Sephiroth ever really realized what he truly was. Remember, Hojo never told him the he and Lucrecia were his parents. The only thing he knows is that Jenova was involved with his birth, and he assumed that this meant that she was his mother, especially since his entire life he'd been told that his mother's name was Jenova. He also assumed that Dr. Gast's theories about Jenova being an Ancient were all correct as well. Where would he have learned that Jenova wasn't an Ancient unless by one of the original researchers. Hojo never told Seph anything, and Gast was already dead by the time Sephiroth learned about his creation. Anyways, all I'm trying to say in this post is that Jenova did have a great influence in the choices Sephiroth made, there's no doubt about that, but they were his conscious choices in the end, and ulitmately if he wanted to he could have done the complete opposite of what Jenova told him.

[blue phoenix]

it was sephiroth, but the "sephiroth" you see throughout the game until the handing over of the black materia is jenova.

[Aralith]

Exactly. Until the point when the Black Materia is handed over to Sephiroth in North Cave, it is Jenova running around with Sephiroth enforcing his will on her, which is why she takes his appearance.