Rinoa IS You Know Who!! Stop denying it!!!!!!! (Spoilers)

[Lychon]

First off, the Final Fantasy "Ultimania" guide makes no individual or explicit comment on Rinoa or Ultimecia's ipseity, therefore the FFVIII FAQ in this forum is imprecise in stating that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. The only germane notion the guide produces pertaining to the R=U thesis is the now canonical statement about sorceresses having intrinsically normal life spans.

Now, we can all know (or at least, we can all comprehend) that when suppositions such as "time compression" and "time manipulation" come into play, any order of normal life spans based on "normal time" become obsolete and extraneous. The concept of time compression also dismantles the syllogistic argument of recursive and subsequently independent "moment-to-moment" time, because the very nature of time compression seeks to coagulate all time and all moments together, therefore instituting a universal singularity with one time and one continuity that possesses unabridged cause and effect.

So what does this all mean? It indicates that Ultimecia's leverage in Squall and Rinoa's timeline most conclusively altered their future due to the temporary temporal singularity created by Ultimecia's attempt at time compression. Because of time compression, no lateral or surrogate timelines or universes are generated and no paradoxes are encountered. Instead, we have the realization of one of man's most ancient fantasies: changing the past. When the temporary time compression phenomenon ended upon Ultimecia's destruction and time was "unfolded" from its compressed state to its "normal" state, a reverberation agent created an echo effect from the point in the time dimension signifying Rinoa and Squall's time into and throughout the future, based accordingly upon the changes caused by Ultimecia's interference in the past.

This subsequently means that if Rinoa ever was on course to become the sorceress Ultimecia, she may now never consummate this possibility because of the reverberating repercussions in the future caused by Ultimecia in Rinoa and Squall's timeline. The ultimate denouement may very well be a completely different future.

And now, following a proof of plausibility and possibility, I say to you climactically that I most surely claim Rinoa to be Ultimecia and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it!!! (unless you work for Square Enix and are able to issue canonical, post-release plot resolutions).

P.S. Stay tuned for a proof of probability of the R=U theory!!

-LYCHON

[disapointedchild]

There has been huge debates on this in the past. This is just one on them.

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=65400&highlight=Rinoa+ultimecia

[Lychon]

There has been huge debates on this in the past. This is just one on them.

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=65400&highlight=Rinoa+ultimecia

Yes, I am aware that this topic has been discussed many times on these forums. I have brought it up again because I have new evidence and because the FFVIII FAQ incorrectly states that Rinoa is not Ultimecia (it implies that this conclusion is expressed or supported by the FFVIII Ultimania guide, which is not the case).

-LYCHON

[disapointedchild]

Yes, I am aware that this topic has been discussed many times on these forums. I have brought it up again because I have new evidence and because the FFVIII FAQ incorrectly states that Rinoa is not Ultimecia (it implies that this conclusion is expressed or supported by the FFVIII Ultimania guide, which is not the case).

-LYCHON
How can the faq incorrectly state this. The only way this can truly be proven is if square came out and said, "Rinoa is Ultimacia." All we can do is speculate as fans of the game. Does your new evidence prove 100% that Rinoa IS Ultimecia, because if it doesnt it is only another speculation. Still i wont make any assumptions untill you reveal your proof of probability of the R=U theory.

[rubah]

You've got the burden of proof.

You haven't proved anything.

[Lychon]

Yes, I am aware that this topic has been discussed many times on these forums. I have brought it up again because I have new evidence and because the FFVIII FAQ incorrectly states that Rinoa is not Ultimecia (it implies that this conclusion is expressed or supported by the FFVIII Ultimania guide, which is not the case).

-LYCHON
How can the faq incorrectly state this. The only way this can truly be proven is if square came out and said, "Rinoa is Ultimacia." All we can do is speculate as fans of the game. Does your new evidence prove 100% that Rinoa IS Ultimecia, because if it doesnt it is only another speculation. But, untill you actually share this information, i will not judge. So whenever you want to share it.

Since Square Enix has not stated specifically whether or not Ultimecia is Rinoa, therefore the FAQ is incorrect to state that it is "not possible" for the latter to be the former. Since the FAQ references the guide in these statements, it implies that the conclusions reached regarding R=U are derived from said guide. This is false, since the only pertaining information in the guide is the mention that sorceresses have normal life spans.

If you had actually read my initial post in this thread instead of carelessly posting inertial responses, you will have noticed that I only set out to prove that the R=U theory is both possible and plausible, not that it was true. I believe I have done this. So I think I'll "share" it with you now. Here's what you have to do: use your nice little computer input device called a "mouse" and scroll to the top of the page while viewing this thread. Now you'll have to engage in something called "reading." Let me know if you were successful.

-LYCHON



You've got the burden of proof.

You haven't proved anything.

The plausibly and possibility of the theory have been proven using known methods of logic, philosophy, metaphysics, and physics. Perhaps if you people actually read and argued the points of the proof you would understand that it is not a proof of the TRUTH of R=U, but only of its possibility………….

Also, if the burden of proof is on me, then the burden of disproof is also on the person who wishes to prove the theory false. In the FFVIII FAQ, this disproof has not been furnished and yet the statement that R=U "is not possible" still remains. Bias much?

P.S. Bow down
P.P.S. Seriously

-LYCHON

[disapointedchild]

Since Square Enix has not stated specifically whether or not Ultimecia is Rinoa, therefore the FAQ is incorrect to state that it is "not possible" for the latter to be the former. Since the FAQ references the guide in these statements, it implies that the conclusions reached regarding R=U are derived from said guide. This is false, since the only pertaining information in the guide is the mention that sorceresses have normal life spans.

If you had actually read my initial post in this thread instead of carelessly posting inertial responses, you will have noticed that I only set out to prove that the R=U theory is both possible and plausible, not that it was true. I believe I have done this. So I think I'll "share" it with you now. Here's what you have to do: use your nice little computer input device called a "mouse" and scroll to the top of the page while viewing this thread. Now you'll have to engage in something called "reading." Let me know if you were successful.

-LYCHON
Well I did read you initial post, I also read the title of the thread.
"Rinoa IS you know who!! Stop denying it"
And then you state R=U, so you are saying Rinoa IS Ultimacia, because thats what YOU said. Then you say its plausible, and possible. But many things are pluasible, why go through them all. So which is it, you want to talk about plausible, this is a video game, and none of this is plausible at all.
Which brings up another point, you are basing all of this on our earths, physics and concepts of time, and its manipulation. But the world of Final Fantasy 8 is nothing like our world at all. Lets take for instance the MAGIC, being used in the game. The fact that you can circle the world in about 10 seconds. They would most likely have to be traveling faster than light, and Einstien said it is impossible for anything to travel that fast. And if our concepts did apply to them, and they were travelling at or close to the speed of light then during regular gameplay you would already be acheiving some sort of time travel, into the future, which you arent. I am just saying, things that apply here dont there. So you can not adapt our concepts to that world, therefor making any assuption you have, not plausible.
Oh and thanks for the mouse advice. ;)

[Lychon]

Since Square Enix has not stated specifically whether or not Ultimecia is Rinoa, therefore the FAQ is incorrect to state that it is "not possible" for the latter to be the former. Since the FAQ references the guide in these statements, it implies that the conclusions reached regarding R=U are derived from said guide. This is false, since the only pertaining information in the guide is the mention that sorceresses have normal life spans.

If you had actually read my initial post in this thread instead of carelessly posting inertial responses, you will have noticed that I only set out to prove that the R=U theory is both possible and plausible, not that it was true. I believe I have done this. So I think I'll "share" it with you now. Here's what you have to do: use your nice little computer input device called a "mouse" and scroll to the top of the page while viewing this thread. Now you'll have to engage in something called "reading." Let me know if you were successful.

-LYCHON
Well I did read you initial post, I also read the title of the thread.
"Rinoa IS you know who!! Stop denying it"
And then you state R=U, so you are saying Rinoa IS Ultimacia, because thats what YOU said. Then you say its plausible, and possible. But many things are pluasible, why go through them all. So which is it, you want to talk about plausible, this is a video game, and none of this is plausible at all.
Oh and thanks for the mouse advice. ;)

The title of my thread is an attention grabber. I see that you once again didn’t even bother to read my first post in this thread but instead assumed that I was rehashing old, worthless arguments. If you understood pragmatism and read my post, you would have understood the nature of my thread’s title. (Surely the numerous exclamation marks were a hint?)

I made it a point to prove the plausibility and possibility of the R=U theory because the FFVIII FAQ stated that it was “not possible” for the theory to be true. This statement is unsubstantiated from Square Enix and therefore is just as erroneous as stating that Rinoa definitely IS Ultimecia. Therefore, I had good reason to “talk” about what is plausible and possible in the R=U theory.

In my actual post, I specifically conclude with the disclaimer that my thread is intended as a proof of the plausibility and possibility of the R=U theory, not the truth of it. Only afterwards do I make a personal statement that I myself believe and claim the R=U theory to be true. But academically speaking, I only ventured to defend the theory’s plausibility and possibility.

P.S. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

-LYCHON

[disapointedchild]

So what you are saying that you are going to prove that it is plausible, for R=U. Because truthfully i dont think there is many people here who wont belive it is possible. I believe it is plausible, enough said. But i did elaborate on my previous post as to why you theory wouldnt work.
But i am pretty sure everybody knows it is plausible.
Oh, here is what i edited in in my other post.
Well I did read you initial post, I also read the title of the thread.
"Rinoa IS you know who!! Stop denying it"
And then you state R=U, so you are saying Rinoa IS Ultimacia, because thats what YOU said. Then you say its plausible, and possible. But many things are pluasible, why go through them all. So which is it, you want to talk about plausible, this is a video game, and none of this is plausible at all.
Which brings up another point, you are basing all of this on our earths, physics and concepts of time, and its manipulation. But the world of Final Fantasy 8 is nothing like our world at all. Lets take for instance the MAGIC, being used in the game. The fact that you can circle the world in about 10 seconds. They would most likely have to be traveling faster than light, and Einstien said it is impossible for anything to travel that fast. And if our concepts did apply to them, and they were travelling at or close to the speed of light then during regular gameplay you would already be acheiving some sort of time travel, into the future, which you arent. I am just saying, things that apply here dont there. So you can not adapt our concepts to that world, therefor making any assuption you have, not plausible.
Oh and thanks for the mouse advice.

[rubah]

The plausibly and possibility of the theory have been proven using known methods of logic, philosophy, metaphysics, and physics. Perhaps if you people actually read and argued the points of the proof you would understand that it is not a proof of the TRUTH of R=U, but only of its possibility………….

Also, if the burden of proof is on me, then the burden of disproof is also on the person who wishes to prove the theory false. In the FFVIII FAQ, this disproof has not been furnished and yet the statement that R=U "is not possible" still remains. Bias much?

P.S. Bow down
P.P.S. Seriously

-LYCHON
Disproof?

There's nothing in the game that says it's true. There's your disproof right there.

And for it merely being a possibility of it being true, you're getting awfully defensive and anal about the entire thing.

[Eiko Guy]

for all we know ultemecia is the rinoa that didnt get back to her time in another dimension and got powerful and forgot cuz this new dimension has weird time laws and shed warped into the hideous ultemecia but i doubt it

[Lychon]

So what you are saying that you are going to prove that it is plausible, for R=U. Because truthfully i dont think there is many people here who wont belive it is possible. I believe it is plausible, enough said. But i did elaborate on my previous post as to why you theory wouldnt work.
But i am pretty sure everybody knows it is plausible.

Precisely. I believe I have already proved it plausible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. As I stated in the very last sentence of my first post in this thread, next I intend to prove the probability that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Since you seemingly admit to the plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, then you must surely disagree with the FFVIII FAQ statement that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. Hence, (by dialectical deduction) you must surely believe that the FFVIII FAQ in this forum to be erroneous in reference to the R=U theory.


-LYCHON

[disapointedchild]

So what you are saying that you are going to prove that it is plausible, for R=U. Because truthfully i dont think there is many people here who wont belive it is possible. I believe it is plausible, enough said. But i did elaborate on my previous post as to why you theory wouldnt work.
But i am pretty sure everybody knows it is plausible.

Precisely. I believe I have already proved it plausible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. As I stated in the very last sentence of my first post in this thread, next I intend to prove the probability that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Since you seemingly admit to the plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, then you must surely disagree with the FFVIII FAQ statement that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. Hence, (by dialectical deduction) you must surely believe that the FFVIII FAQ in this forum to be erroneous in reference to the R=U theory.


-LYCHON


Well maybe it shouldnt say "not possible." I personnally have never looked at the faq, so i thought it said...
the FFVIII FAQ incorrectly states that Rinoa is not Ultimecia
And thats why i was arguing. The FAQ i believe would be right is saying this b/c the faq should state fact. The reasong this would be fact is because like i said earlier WE, can only speculate and believe R=U, but never be able to say 100%, so as a basis the FAQ should say Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

[G SpOtZ]

... I'm still waiting for the proof of Rinoa probably being Ulti.

[Lychon]

So what you are saying that you are going to prove that it is plausible, for R=U. Because truthfully i dont think there is many people here who wont belive it is possible. I believe it is plausible, enough said. But i did elaborate on my previous post as to why you theory wouldnt work.
But i am pretty sure everybody knows it is plausible.

Precisely. I believe I have already proved it plausible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. As I stated in the very last sentence of my first post in this thread, next I intend to prove the probability that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Since you seemingly admit to the plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, then you must surely disagree with the FFVIII FAQ statement that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. Hence, (by dialectical deduction) you must surely believe that the FFVIII FAQ in this forum to be erroneous in reference to the R=U theory.


-LYCHON


Well maybe it shouldnt say "not possible." I personnally have never looked at the faq, so i thought it said...
the FFVIII FAQ incorrectly states that Rinoa is not Ultimecia
And thats why i was arguing. The FAQ i believe would be right is saying this b/c the faq should state fact. The reasong this would be fact is because like i said earlier WE, can only speculate and believe R=U, but never be able to say 100%, so as a basis the FAQ should say Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

That is logically flawed. Just because the affirmative side of an argument cannot be proven without a doubt does not mean that the negative should be automatically taken as default. The FAQ is misleading and incorrect, especially in the face of plausible and possible proof that Rinoa may in fact be Ultimecia. It should instead read something along the lines of "based on the information provided in the FFVIII game and the Ultimania guide, it is unconvincing that Rinoa is or ever will become Ultimecia."


... I'm still waiting for the proof of Rinoa probably being Ulti.

That's upcoming....for now you'll have to settle for the proof of the plausibility and possibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, which is post # 1 in this thread. :)

-LYCHON

[disapointedchild]

So what you are saying that you are going to prove that it is plausible, for R=U. Because truthfully i dont think there is many people here who wont belive it is possible. I believe it is plausible, enough said. But i did elaborate on my previous post as to why you theory wouldnt work.
But i am pretty sure everybody knows it is plausible.

Precisely. I believe I have already proved it plausible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. As I stated in the very last sentence of my first post in this thread, next I intend to prove the probability that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Since you seemingly admit to the plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, then you must surely disagree with the FFVIII FAQ statement that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. Hence, (by dialectical deduction) you must surely believe that the FFVIII FAQ in this forum to be erroneous in reference to the R=U theory.


-LYCHON


Well maybe it shouldnt say "not possible." I personnally have never looked at the faq, so i thought it said...
the FFVIII FAQ incorrectly states that Rinoa is not Ultimecia
And thats why i was arguing. The FAQ i believe would be right is saying this b/c the faq should state fact. The reasong this would be fact is because like i said earlier WE, can only speculate and believe R=U, but never be able to say 100%, so as a basis the FAQ should say Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

That is logically flawed. Just because the affirmative side of an argument cannot be proven without a doubt does not mean that the negative should be automatically taken as default. The FAQ is misleading and incorrect, especially in the face of plausible and possible proof that Rinoa may in fact be Ultimecia. It should instead read something along the lines of "based on the information provided in the FFVIII game and the Ultimania guide, it is unconvincing that Rinoa is or ever will become Ultimecia."

-LYCHON

Well here is how i see it.
I am going to make up a scenerio, lets say some ladies husband just died. Now there is a lot of speculation, and it is plausible that the lady killed her husband, but untill the police can prove this to 100% on the official record it has to say she is innocent. The Faq i believe is like the official record.

[Lychon]

So what you are saying that you are going to prove that it is plausible, for R=U. Because truthfully i dont think there is many people here who wont belive it is possible. I believe it is plausible, enough said. But i did elaborate on my previous post as to why you theory wouldnt work.
But i am pretty sure everybody knows it is plausible.

Precisely. I believe I have already proved it plausible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. As I stated in the very last sentence of my first post in this thread, next I intend to prove the probability that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Since you seemingly admit to the plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, then you must surely disagree with the FFVIII FAQ statement that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. Hence, (by dialectical deduction) you must surely believe that the FFVIII FAQ in this forum to be erroneous in reference to the R=U theory.


-LYCHON


Well maybe it shouldnt say "not possible." I personnally have never looked at the faq, so i thought it said...
the FFVIII FAQ incorrectly states that Rinoa is not Ultimecia
And thats why i was arguing. The FAQ i believe would be right is saying this b/c the faq should state fact. The reasong this would be fact is because like i said earlier WE, can only speculate and believe R=U, but never be able to say 100%, so as a basis the FAQ should say Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

That is logically flawed. Just because the affirmative side of an argument cannot be proven without a doubt does not mean that the negative should be automatically taken as default. The FAQ is misleading and incorrect, especially in the face of plausible and possible proof that Rinoa may in fact be Ultimecia. It should instead read something along the lines of "based on the information provided in the FFVIII game and the Ultimania guide, it is unconvincing that Rinoa is or ever will become Ultimecia."

-LYCHON

Well here is how i see it.
I am going to make up a scenerio, lets say some ladies husband just died. Now there is a lot of speculation, and it is plausible that the lady killed her husband, but untill the police can prove this to 100% on the official record it has to say she is innocent. The Faq i believe is like the official record.

We're not talking about some random, whimsical concoction of someone's overactive imagination. We're talking about a theory which has definite support from in-game evidence and the game's manual. Anyone can make up a theory on their own such as Irvine or Squall actually being Ultimecia. Such theories, however, are unsupported by the game and therefore warrant far less consideration and discussion than R=U does. I will not go into this evidence here because it has already been discussed in the other threads about the R=U theory. Instead, I will reserve it for the “probability” section of my proof. But as for now, R=U lives!

-LYCHON

[Christmas]

Indeed, Indeed, who dares deny it?

[disapointedchild]

We're not talking about some random, whimsical concoction of someone's overactive imagination. We're talking about a theory which has definite support from in-game evidence and the game's manual. Anyone can make up a theory on their own such as Irvine or Squall actually being Ultimecia. Such theories, however, are unsupported by the game and therefore warrant far less consideration and discussion than R=U does. I will not go into this evidence here because it has already been discussed in the other threads about the R=U theory. Instead, I will reserve it for the “probability” section of my proof. But as for now, R=U lives!

-LYCHON
Well you can believe it, but R=U has never lived, because when you use the equall sign, you are saying that both side of the equation are the same. And You cant say rinoa is ultimacia, especially since YOU are only trying to prove that it is PLAUSIBLE.

For the record, i dont deny it, i just believe the search to prove it is pointless, you never will, no matter how much theory you have, because theory is just theory.

[Lychon]

We're not talking about some random, whimsical concoction of someone's overactive imagination. We're talking about a theory which has definite support from in-game evidence and the game's manual. Anyone can make up a theory on their own such as Irvine or Squall actually being Ultimecia. Such theories, however, are unsupported by the game and therefore warrant far less consideration and discussion than R=U does. I will not go into this evidence here because it has already been discussed in the other threads about the R=U theory. Instead, I will reserve it for the “probability” section of my proof. But as for now, R=U lives!

-LYCHON
Well you can believe it, but R=U has never lived, because when you use the equall sign, you are saying that both side of the equation are the same. And You cant say rinoa is ultimacia, especially since YOU are only trying to prove that it is PLAUSIBLE.


What the hell are you talking about? "R=U" is a shortened way of representing the argument over whether Rinoa is or is not Ultimecia. You're not pulling that semantics crap, are you? Stick with the logic!

P.S. And yes, R=U has lived and is living! (Once again, by "R=U lives!", I mean that the argument R=U is alive. This very thread is testimony to that! Kindly stop pulling stupid semantics crap).

-LYCHON

[disapointedchild]

Alright,

You are basing all of this on our earths, physics and concepts of time, and its manipulation. But the world of Final Fantasy 8 is nothing like our world at all. Lets take for instance the MAGIC, being used in the game. The fact that you can circle the world in about 10 seconds. They would most likely have to be traveling faster than light, and Einstien said it is impossible for anything to travel that fast. And if our concepts did apply to them, and they were travelling at or close to the speed of light then during regular gameplay you would already be acheiving some sort of time travel, into the future, which you arent. I am just saying, things that apply here dont there. So you can not adapt our concepts to that world, therefor making any assuption you have, not plausible.

[Lychon]

Alright,

You are basing all of this on our earths, physics and concepts of time, and its manipulation. But the world of Final Fantasy 8 is nothing like our world at all. Lets take for instance the MAGIC, being used in the game. The fact that you can circle the world in about 10 seconds. They would most likely have to be traveling faster than light, and Einstien said it is impossible for anything to travel that fast. And if our concepts did apply to them, and they were travelling at or close to the speed of light then during regular gameplay you would already be acheiving some sort of time travel, into the future, which you arent. I am just saying, things that apply here dont there. So you can not adapt our concepts to that world, therefor making any assuption you have, not plausible.

Your above quote goes without saying. I've actually used the exact same argument against those who have argued on the negative side of the R=U theory so it’s quite comical to see it turned against me now, lol . Of course the physics of Final Fantasy VIII appear to work differently than the physics in our world, but we do not have enough information to decipher a set of universal laws within the Final Fantasy VIII universe and create entirely new methods of quantum mechanics and relativity operations. And since most of the anti R=U arguments are based off a system which more or less adapts our own physical laws to the Final Fantasy universe, it does not weaken my argument when I do the same since I am responding in kind.

Lastly, it cannot be stated with definitude that the physical laws in Final Fantasy VIII are really different than the laws governing our own universe. Neither you nor I have had a part in creating this game so we cannot discard the possibility that the creators envisioned the Final Fantasy VIII universe as a futuristic version of our own, with advances in the areas of aviation, weaponry, physics, chemistry, etc… In fact, the forefront of physics today in our world involves theories that contradict Einstein’s belief that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. So you see, you were in fact assuming just as much as I was when you wrote your above statement. Regardless of this, however, there is still no excuse for stating with absolute certainty that it is “not possible” for Rinoa to be Ultimecia.

P.S. You're really pulling out the big guns now, aren't ya? Bow Down!!!! lol

-LYCHON

[Sir Bahamut]

Your arguments are not very convincing I'm afraid.

You say time compression etc. renders regular lifespans and such irrelevant, which may be so, but you do not actually explain how this can be used to allow R=U in a plausible way backed up by the game. It's not enough just stating that the "time stuff in the game makes it all weird" if you don't also provide a highly specific explanation of how this can be used to allow Rinoa to become Ultimecia (based on the game, obviously).

Next, you indicate that the failed attempt at time compression changed the past, which is all well and good, except for the fact that the game indicates strongly that the past cannot be changed. Ellone states it outright, Squall disbelieves her but finds out she is right, Edea receives Ultimecia's powers at the orphanage like she says happened, Ultimecia is defeated as she seemingly struggles to avoid her fate, and fate and destiny (generally two things which would prevent changing the past) are generally important aspects of the game.

But even assuming you had provided a convincing argument demonstrating the likelyhood of time being dynamic, the way in which you use this as an R=U argument is highly suspect. You basically say that this means that even if Rinoa became Ultimecia before, the game may not depict any events foreshadowing this because the past has been changed. This is clearly a very poor argument which only has the purpose of hiding the fact that the game does not indicate R=U in any way.

I can't see anything new so far in your arguments which justify your claim of having proven the possibility and plausibility (how can you have proven plausibility when you haven't even given any ingame hints yet?).

Now, it should of course be said, that R=U is obviously possible in the sense that ANYTHING is possible (since we never see the events between the end of the game and the fight with Ultimecia in the future), but since anything is thus technically possible, a proof of possibility is completely insignificant unless it is coupled with a proof of plausibility and probability. So far, you have given neither. I'm waiting with excitement though...

[disapointedchild]

Well I am in no way going to bow down. So far you have only proved that it is possible, which is no fancy feat. You are just going the route of the theoretical physics. Which is fine, i just thought i would disprove your theory, but let me stress again that does not mean i dont believe rinoa could be ultimecia. Yes of course you theory could be right, it could also be wrong, like you said, neither of us created the game, so we dont know, nor will we EVER know.

If you are arguing that they should change the faq, i dont think its going to happen.

So, cool theory.

But lets just say the creators did intend ff8 worls to be a futuristic version of our own world, that still doesnt explain why the Ragnorok can traval around the whole globe in seconds. One thing we know is that the speed of light is a constant. No matter what, light always travels at the same speed, therefore velocity is constant. Velocity is the change in distance over the change in time. The distance becomes a constant, so the only thing that can change is time, therefore speeding it up, as in I think it is Einstiens twin theory. But this doesnt happen in ff8, therefore this proves that the laws which bind us, or completly diff from the ones that bind ff8, therefor making your statements unclausible because they are based on our world, not ff8.

[Lychon]

Your arguments are not very convincing I'm afraid.
Oh, I believe they are. I do not even have to defend them because the logic and physics discussion speaks for itself. Just for kicks, let’s begin the old argument and disprove your statements one by one, shall we?




You say time compression etc. renders regular lifespans and such irrelevant, which may be so, but you do not actually explain how this can be used to allow R=U in a plausible way backed up by the game. It's not enough just stating that the "time stuff in the game makes it all weird" if you don't also provide a highly specific explanation of how this can be used to allow Rinoa to become Ultimecia (based on the game, obviously).

You are putting words into my mouth to better formulate an antithesis. I never stated that compression creates regular life spans (“lifespans” is actually two words, by the way). The explanation as to why time compression makes “normal life spans” irrelevant is actually quite obvious. It proves that simply because sorceresses have normal life spans does not mean that they are limited to that period of time. I explained in my post the details of this and never simply stated “time stuff in the game makes it all weird.” Ah, ah, ah, I think you’re up to your old ways again here, my dear Sir Bahamut. Try next time to address my arguments directly, instead of supplying your own comments to better few your counter.

The explanation nullifies the reason cited for why Rinoa cannot be Ultimecia. That reason of course is the claim in the Ultimania guide that sorceresses have normal life spans.



Next, you indicate that the failed attempt at time compression changed the past, which is all well and good, except for the fact that the game indicates strongly that the past cannot be changed. Ellone states it outright, Squall disbelieves her but finds out she is right, Edea receives Ultimecia's powers at the orphanage like she says happened, Ultimecia is defeated as she seemingly struggles to avoid her fate, and fate and destiny (generally two things which would prevent changing the past) are generally important aspects of the game.

You misinterpret what Ellone meant. Her words alone in that part of the game can spark an entirely new debate. In the context of her words, Ellone was referring to her own abilities and the transposition of conscience over time, not to the physical phenomenon of time compression. The very principle of time compression has already proven that the past can and does change in the Final Fantasy VIII universe. Not only that, but time compression also nullifies current Earth theories about time manipulation, such as the theory you brought in your last argument by Brian Greene.




But even assuming you had provided a convincing argument demonstrating the likelyhood of time being dynamic, the way in which you use this as an R=U argument is highly suspect. You basically say that this means that even if Rinoa became Ultimecia before, the game may not depict any events foreshadowing this because the past has been changed. This is clearly a very poor argument which only has the purpose of hiding the fact that the game does not indicate R=U in any way.
Well, given that the argument I provided was in fact quite convincing and quite destructive to your own theories (sorry about that), I retain continued confidence in the R=U theory. Not only does the game indicate R=U in several ways which I have specifically argued with you before, but the idea that Rinoa will not become Ultimecia due to the past being changed is actually quite sound when you consider the repercussions of time compression.




I can't see anything new so far in your arguments which justify your claim of having proven the possibility and plausibility (how can you have proven plausibility when you haven't even given any ingame hints yet?).

Again with the in-game hints? You must really like those “in-game” hints! Those have already been discussed many times in many other threads dealing with the theory of R=U, but they do not prove the plausibility and possibility of the theory to the extant that logical and metaphysical arguments do (such as the one supplied by me at the top of this thread).




Now, it should of course be said, that R=U is obviously possible in the sense that ANYTHING is possible (since we never see the events between the end of the game and the fight with Ultimecia in the future), but since anything is thus technically possible, a proof of possibility is completely insignificant unless it is coupled with a proof of plausibility and probability. So far, you have given neither. I'm waiting with excitement though...

Not only is it possible, but it is both plausible and probable. I haven’t yet supplied a post which deals with the probability of the R=U theory in this thread, but I have already proven the possibility and probability of the theory far beyond any whimsical concoction like, oh say….Irvine getting a sex change and becoming Ultimecia. (Ring a bell here?)
I understand you need to validate yourself by crusading against R=U, but with my latest work, I believe your efforts to be all in vain. I look forward to your response so we can continue our previous argument. Perhaps this time you’ll actually continue arguing instead of saying “Oh this is my final post…” lol

-LYCHON

[Sir Bahamut]

Nevermind. It is obvious that your stance since last time we argued has not changed one bit, so I won't bother wasting my time again. I will however wait around to see your so-called "proof" of probability, just to see if you can actually find some startling new argument (though I doubt it strongly) tipping the favour on the R=U side.

Why are you waiting with giving it, by the way?

[Viator]

So what does this all mean? It indicates that Ultimecia's leverage in Squall and Rinoa's timeline most conclusively altered their future due to the temporary temporal singularity created by Ultimecia's attempt at time compression. Because of time compression, no lateral or surrogate timelines or universes are generated and no paradoxes are encountered. Instead, we have the realization of one of man's most ancient fantasies: changing the past. When the temporary time compression phenomenon ended upon Ultimecia's destruction and time was "unfolded" from its compressed state to its "normal" state, a reverberation agent created an echo effect from the point in the time dimension signifying Rinoa and Squall's time into and throughout the future, based accordingly upon the changes caused by Ultimecia's interference in the past.

Ultimecia never change the past she only completed the past(Squall's present).How can you change the future if you dont change the past.So Ultimecia never interfere the past I mean she never change the past even she go back to the past.If Ultimecia can change the past that means She wont died at Squall's hand but she did.So Ultimecia NEVER change the past.
Well You already read that "Rev of the Truth" thread that can explain many things and that thread already prove the game wrong by stated "Edea is no longer a sorceress" but I already prove Edea is STILL a sorceress.


The very "principle" of time compression has already proven that the past can and does change in the Final Fantasy VIII universe.

I dont see anything changed in the past in FF8 universe.
If there are,tell me what changed.
Maybe you just misunderstand that "principle"

Well there's only two person can prove who Ultimecia is beside Ultimecia herself.
Edea and Rinoa
If Rinoa is Ultimecia that means Edea already know right away when she sees Rinoa.But Edea doesnt know anything about Rinoa.That means Rinoa CANT be Ultimecia.
When Rinoa and Edea get possesessed by Ultimecia they only know that there's a sorceress called Ultimecia inside their body.So this prove that Ultimecia = Ultimecia.

Personally I dont really believe everything about Ultimania (about FF8) because the authors only making an assumption about the story of the game.(assumption is the thing can be right and wrong)
I think the authors make Sorcererss has the same life span like human is to destroy R=U theory.If they dont make "that" we still argue about R=U theory and maybe we will believe Rinoa is Ultimecia.So they make that to destroy R=U theory for good.

We dont need plausibility or possibility but we need Truth.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

"Ultimecia lives in the future where none of us can technically exist" words of Laguna

When you fight Adel in the Lunatic Pandora you enter Time Travel...and you batle sorceresses from across generations you fight at least three sorceresses which means that about 100 years have passed into the future.
So Rinoa would be already death by that time.

If that´s not prove enough then you will notice Ultimecia as an axent, she doesn´t speak normal english while Rinoa does.

So stating that U=R is false just like that.

[Lychon]

Nevermind. It is obvious that your stance since last time we argued has not changed one bit, so I won't bother wasting my time again. I will however wait around to see your so-called "proof" of probability, just to see if you can actually find some startling new argument (though I doubt it strongly) tipping the favour on the R=U side.

Why are you waiting with giving it, by the way?

I am waiting because I first want to converse about the current topic of the possibility and plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, which I have already proved. I just want to see people who deny the possibility of R=U attempt to disprove it. So far, no one has even ventured a worthy endeavor.

I think that you made the correct decision not to argue this time, not because I think that you cannot argue (on the contrary, I believe you argue exceptionally well, despite your sophistry), but because there truly is no point to you arguing with me. The reason for this is because my main contention is the conclusion that it IS possible and plausible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. You have already stated that you at least partly agree with this in previous threads, so therefore I am only contradicting you in minor points rather than in the big picture.

That is also the main reason behind this entire post: it seems incorrect to me for the FFVIII FAQ on these forums to state that R=U is "not possible", especially when it implies that such a notion is presented and supported by canon.


Well I am in no way going to bow down. So far you have only proved that it is possible, which is no fancy feat. You are just going the route of the theoretical physics. Which is fine, i just thought i would disprove your theory, but let me stress again that does not mean i dont believe rinoa could be ultimecia. Yes of course you theory could be right, it could also be wrong, like you said, neither of us created the game, so we dont know, nor will we EVER know.

Oh, you of course do need to bow down personally, but your argument has already done so for you since it has been qualified as inconsequential. My original intent WAS to prove that R=U was possible (which I have done), and since you have just admitted that I have proved it in your above quote, you have delved into hypocrisy by continuing to support the statement in the FFVIII FAQ that states R=U “is not possible” (a direct contradiction).



But lets just say the creators did intend ff8 worls to be a futuristic version of our own world, that still doesnt explain why the Ragnorok can traval around the whole globe in seconds. One thing we know is that the speed of light is a constant. No matter what, light always travels at the same speed, therefore velocity is constant. Velocity is the change in distance over the change in time. The distance becomes a constant, so the only thing that can change is time, therefore speeding it up, as in I think it is Einstiens twin theory. But this doesnt happen in ff8, therefore this proves that the laws which bind us, or completly diff from the ones that bind ff8, therefor making your statements unclausible because they are based on our world, not ff8.

The realm of science, especially the science of physics, has not been explored to its fullest extent in our own world. Therefore, you cannot assume that in the future there will not be objects that are capable of traveling at the speed of light or even faster than the speed of light.

Second, the speed of light is NOT constant. The speed of light varies based on what it is traveling through (i.e. if it is traveling through vacuum, atmosphere, etc…). In physics, velocity is speed and direction. The laws in our world may very well be exactly the same as the laws in the Final Fantasy VIII world. The only difference may be that we have not yet reached the stage of development that will allow us to manipulate physical forces to the extent that they are manipulated in the Final Fantasy VIII universe. Secondly, as I already mentioned but you purposely overlooked, there are theories on the forefront of physics today that are speculating and formulating concepts that will allow an object to travel faster than the speed of light. Therefore, our universe and the Final Fantasy VIII universe may indeed be governed by EXACTLY the same laws.

Also, since we do not fully understand the physical laws in the Final Fantasy VIII universe, it may be foolish to assume that the Ragnarok is definitely moving faster than the speed of light. There may be other means of transportation that would create similar presentations as seen in the Final Fantasy VIII game that have yet not even been theorized in our own world. :)

P.S. Time is not linear in Final Fantasy VIII, therefore it does “change,” if by change you mean differ from its "normal" continuity.
P.P.S Now will you bow down? Lol

-LYCHON

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

How do you explain Ultimecias accent then?

[Psychotic]

Rinoa is Lord Voldemort?!

[Odaisé Gaelach]

How do you explain Ultimecias accent then?

He's got ya there Lychon.



Rinoa is Lord Voldemort?!

Genius.

[Lychon]

How do you explain Ultimecias accent then?

First off, she does not have an "accent" because character dialogue is not voiced in the Final Fantasy VIII game.

A possible reason for Ultimecia's altered semantics is produced when you consider the scenario of Rinoa being locked away in stasis for hundreds upon hundreds of years and finally being released some time in the future. (I recall that Adel also had an awkward word pattern in the game, perhaps as a side effect from being held in stasis).

There are several other reasons which perfectly explain why Rinoa's semantics may have changed if she were to become Ultimecia, but those are really part of the "probability proof" which I have not yet started. :D



He's got ya there Lychon.


Ohhhhh....so close but no cigar! Stop denying R=U! Admit to it! Submit to it! BOW DOWN TO IT! lol

P.S. Did I mention that Mary Magdalene rocks?

-LYCHON

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Being locked down would make her have difficulty speaking not change the way her voice sounds.
It´s just like in the RE film Alice gets caught up by Umbrella and tranformed when the scientist begin to talk to her she as trouble saying words but she doesn´t change her tone nor looks like a foreign turist and that´s exacly how Ultimecia sounds( or at least her speech sounds).

[Lychon]

Being locked down would make her have difficulty speaking not change the way her voice sounds.
It´s just like in the RE film Alice gets caught up by Umbrella and tranformed when the scientist begin to talk to her she as trouble saying words but she doesn´t change her tone nor looks like a foreign turist and that´s exacly how Ultimecia sounds( or at least her speech sounds).

Dude, are you serious with that argument? YOU NEVER HEAR RINOA OR ULTIMECIA SPEAK IN THE GAME!!! How can you possibly know what her voice “sounds” like?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!??!!? Your argument is completely FALSE!!

And by admitting to my supposition that stasis would cause someone to have difficulties in speaking, you are in fact validating my conclusions about why Ultimecia’s semantics are different than Rinoa’s!

By the way, neither you nor I are experts in cryogenics so let's not get carried away with stating what does and does not happen when someone exits stasis.

P.S. "...change the way her voice sounds." LOL, that was a good one! This was by far the easiest rebuttal I have EVER written!!!
P.P.S. Anything else you want me to disprove?


-LYCHON

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Ahhh you can´t hear then but you can see their dialogue which works the same way i think.

[G SpOtZ]

Lychon: Calm down bud. It would probably look better for proving your point if you kept a cool attitude about it, just a tip. ;)
Also, I'm getting kind of bored. Can you please show your proof of the probability of R=U? I don't see what else you can possibly talk about pertaining to the "plausibility"... so let's move on, neh?

[~SapphireStar~]

Ahhh you can´t hear then but you can see their dialogue which works the same way i think.
What? You cant hear text, I dont understand why you are telling people they can hear text when you just cant.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

No i´m saying you can read the text of the dialogue and you can understand that Ultimecia doens´t have difficulty speaking she just as an accent like Odine you know.

[~SapphireStar~]

No I dont know. How can you justify how or whom she sounds like? You may imagine she sounds like Odine, but that doesnt mean everyone else does.

[G SpOtZ]

No I dont know. How can you justify how or whom she sounds like? You may imagine she sounds like Odine, but that doesnt mean everyone else does.
Actually, Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer is right. If you look at her dialogue box when she speaks, words are spelled differently, and some letters even have accent marks above them, thus showing that her accent is remarkably different. If they didn't want to make it apparent that her accent was different from anybody else's they wouldn't have added the difference in her way of speaking, which in this case, has to do with the accent marks and changes in spelling.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Yes you´re right apparently that´s not obvious to everyone.

[Lychon]

No I dont know. How can you justify how or whom she sounds like? You may imagine she sounds like Odine, but that doesnt mean everyone else does.
Actually, Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer is right. If you look at her dialogue box when she speaks, words are spelled differently, and some letters even have accent marks above them, thus showing that her accent is remarkably different. If they didn't want to make it apparent that her accent was different from anybody else's they wouldn't have added the difference in her way of speaking, which in this case, has to do with the accent marks and changes in spelling.

No, he is incorrect and you are extremely biased for making a shameful statement of support for an inane argument. "Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer" claimed that the FFVIII character voices were different and that they had different accents. He claimed that he could "hear" the way her "voice sounds". This is absurd, and you have VASTLY weakened your side of the R=U argument by making any kind of support for it.

Now you're really grasping at straws. Now R=U is complete and truly plausible. With your insane continuation of support for the argument that there is voice and sound in the Final Fantasy VIII game you have completely eroded your position. The dialogue boxes only serve to confirm that Ultimecia and Rinoa's speech patterns have different SEMANTICS and LINGUISTICS, not different-sounding accents or different sounds or anything else. The false assumption that you can “hear” the sound and “voices” of dialogue from the boxes, (when it is perfectly clear, PERFECTLY CLEAR AND COMMON KNOWLEDGE that there is no voice acting provided for any of the diaolgue in FFVIII) is such a transgression against valid and logical argument that it should result in you and "Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer" banning and/or removal from these forums for purposely providing false and provocative arguments.

-LYCHON

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Actually i think you´re insane...geez all this because of a statement...calm down man.

[Lychon]

Actually i think you´re insane...geez all this because of a statement...calm down man.

This is a personal attack. I never called you insane or anything else. I only referred to the idiocy of your arguments. I am now warning your post. Thank you. :D

-LYCHON

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer, please do not make personal attacks against other members. Calling them insane might not seem that bad by your standards, but it is still not permissible on this site.

Lychon, "I only referred to the idiocy of your arguments" is easily considered an implication that the person you are refering to is, themself, an idiot. You've been warned about personal attacks several times, do not make them.

Furthermore, you do not need to make a post saying that you've warned someone and attempting to justify that you are in the right. Simply warn a post and move on.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Ahhh whatever...i just stated my opinio but it´s cool i think you just call the guys in Square and ask them if Rinoa is Ultimecia or not. So they can answer:
"It´s just a game man...we don´t even remember who Rinoa is...were already making FFXIII so just seat back and calm down!"

[Xurts]

Lychon has too much time on his hands.

[~SapphireStar~]

Lychon has too much time on his hands.
So has everyone else who creates websites dedicated to theorys like this. Whats your problem with someone digging further into a subject?

i think you just call the guys in Square and ask them if Rinoa is Ultimecia or not. So they can answer:
"It´s just a game man...we don´t even remember who Rinoa is...were already making FFXIII so just seat back and calm down!"
I think Square would be impressed and happy that some fans have gone one step further and anaylised the game into more detail instead of playing it and throwing it aside to start another one.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Actually i think they would say you should leave the game for a while and go do something else...but that´s just my opinion.

[G SpOtZ]

:confused:
I never said I could hear the voices. The text and dialogue implies that there is a change in accent. Duhhh. =P


Still waiting to see the "probability" part though. *taps finger on table*

[~SapphireStar~]

Actually i think they would say you should leave the game for a while and go do something else...but that´s just my opinion.
Actually you dont know that and neither do I. But as you said, its your opinion.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Quiet right so i guess will leave it at that then...too much excitement for one day.

[Xurts]

Lychon has too much time on his hands.
So has everyone else who creates websites dedicated to theorys like this. Whats your problem with someone digging further into a subject?
Because obsessing over this theory is just stupid. If Square intended for Rinoa to be Ultimecia, they would have made it much more obvious. All people that support the theory can argue about is that it might be possible. Big deal. Alot of things are possible. Give it a rest already.

[daggertrepe]

How about this: Rinoa is one thing and one thing only: GAY!

That settles that! :D

[~SapphireStar~]

Give it a rest already.
Allow people to believe what they want. Just because you dont want to go into the subject doesnt mean others have to follow you. Leave this thread then, but dont tell others to give it a rest in a thread you dont want to be a part of.

[Xurts]

You guys get defensive at the drop of a hat, don't you? Say one thing that you don't like and you pounce all over people. Chill.

[daggertrepe]

I think this topic should be closed.

[Lychon]

:confused:
I never said I could hear the voices. The text and dialogue implies that there is a change in accent. Duhhh. =P


Still waiting to see the "probability" part though. *taps finger on table*

No, the text and dialogue "implies" no such thing. I was referring to "Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer" about stating that he believed that there was actual voice acting for the dialogue between the characters in FFVIII. Since you made a statement that you thought "Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer" was right, then you obviously also believe that there was voice acting for the dialogue in Final Fantasy VIII. The only thing that the dialogue boxes suggest is that there is a difference between the linguistics and semantics of Rinoa and Ultimecia. Ask any linguist about the situation and he/she will determine that it is absolutely incorrect to state that Ultimecia has a different accent than Rinoa from the information presented in the dialogue boxes. You don't even know how Rinoa sounds, much less Ultimecia! This is because there was NO VOICE ACTING FOR THE DIALOGUE IN FFVIII. How can you POSSIBLY make absolute statements about the differences between Rinoa and Ultimecia's vocal patterns when you do not even have a sample of one of their voices?

So, since you believe that there was voice acting for the dialogue in FFVIII, it is your duty to prove this. Prove that there was voice acting for the dialogue in Final Fantasy VIII (good luck with this one, lol). Prove that Rinoa and Ultimecia have different "accents." Finally, it is also your duty to prove how in the world does a difference in accent automatically mean that Ultimecia is not Rinoa? If anything, it proves even more that Ultimecia is Rinoa because I would think that hundreds of years in stasis would alter much more than your speech patterns.


P.S. By the way, I'm still waiting for you to disprove my proof about the possibility and plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia..."taps finger on table"......(still waiting for you to prove that Rinoa is not Ultimecia, even though she most ABSOLUTELY POSITVELY IS, as far as I am concerned). :)


P.P.S. Still waiting for you to prove that Rinoa isn’t Ultimecia so we can move on to the probability proof.....

P.P.P.S Still waiting on that proof…..

P.P.P.P.S R=U lives!



Allow people to believe what they want. Just because you dont want to go into the subject doesnt mean others have to follow you. Leave this thread then, but dont tell others to give it a rest in a thread you dont want to be a part of.

I second the above quote. If anyone wants to argue valid points (as opposed to invalid points such as claiming that there was voice acting for the dialogue in FFVIII), then by all means do so. I'm not trying to belittle anyone here, but I WILL TEAR AN ARGUMENT TO PIECES IF IT IS FALSE OR NONSENSICAL. I have never stated as fact that Rinoa is Ultimecia. The only time I have stated that Rinoa IS Ultimecia is when I was expressing a personal opinion. But I believe that I have proved that it IS plausible and possible for Rinoa to BE Ultimecia, and if anyone wants to disprove it, then please attempt to do so. That's what this entire post is about.

By the way, who the heck is going to change the part in the FFVIII FAQ that incorrectly states that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia?!

-LYCHON

[daggertrepe]

Once again, I think all points have been proven here. This thread is just a ramble on-everyone needs to lay off it.

[G SpOtZ]

You don't pay attention, do you? It's ridiculous how you're putting words into my mouth. I already said I never heard voices from it, and I know there isn't voice acting. However, if there isn't a change in accent like you say, then explain to me the changes of style in dialogue. Why are Ulti's words spelled differently, and why are there accent marks above some of the letters of the words she uses?

You're basing this theory on an awful lot of speculation. However, I never said I was going to disprove you. I'm just waiting for you to prove the probability. Now, stop stalling and making excuses, stop putting words into my mouth, and get on with it.

PS. You're being awfully hostel and unreasonable about everything.

[daggertrepe]

Exactly why this should be closed.

[Zeromus_X]

Have I replied in this yet? No matter.

No, she is not Ultimecia. The Ultimania *insert rest of big title* guide for FFVIII states that sorceresses have normal lifespans. Therefore Rinoa cannot live long enough to 'become' Ultimecia. There. That's all it is. :)

Little theories are great, when there's actually room for them. But there isn't, in this case.

[Hambone]

omg it's just a game. why do you have to waste years coming up with these theories?

[Lychon]

Once again, I think all points have been proven here. This thread is just a ramble on-everyone needs to lay off it.

Check out the Final Fantasy VIII FAQ in the Final Fantasy 8 section of the forums. The answer to the question of R=U states in bold letters that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. The FAQ states that this statement is derived through deduction from the Ultimania guide, which states that sorceresses have normal life spans.

The Ultimania guide never states anything about Rinoa not being someone else, nor does it elaborate significantly on Ultimecia’s identity. Secondly, it is illogical to argue that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia from the information provided in the Ultimania guide. I have already proven the possibility and plausibility of the theory and I will soon prove the probability of Rinoa being Ultimecia (notice how I never actually state that I will prove the entire theory correct.- I am just out to prove the possibility, plausibility, and probability of the theory. Even if all these three are proven, it still does not mean that the theory is correct because I am just proving that the idea is possible and perhaps probable).

This means that the FFVIII FAQ must be changed unless someone provides a source to Square Enix and proves that an individual from the company who had a hand in the game's creation personally confirmed that Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

-LYCHON

[daggertrepe]

Acutally, you contradicted yourself. You stated that you never said that Rinoa is actually Ultimecia, you just THINK she is.

Yet the title says:

Rinoa IS you know who! Stop denying it!

So there, you stated that you BELIEVE she is Ultimecia.

I think you're making excuses cuz you can't back your theory up well enough. There is a difference between thinking and knowing.

[Lychon]

But you just contradicted yourself.

The title says:

"Rinoa IS You Know Who!! Stop denying it!!!!!!!"


Have you ever heard of an "attention grabber"? The numerous exclamation marks had to have told you something....(I have actually already covered this attack in a previous post in this thread(# 8)).




You don't pay attention, do you? It's ridiculous how you're putting words into my mouth. I already said I never heard voices from it, and I know there isn't voice acting. However, if there isn't a change in accent like you say, then explain to me the changes of style in dialogue. Why are Ulti's words spelled differently, and why are there accent marks above some of the letters of the words she uses?


Now you are back-pedaling. I did not create the game and I will not delve into exactly why Ultimecia's linguistics and semantics are the way they are (I'll save that for the probability proof :D). The one thing I will say (as I already have proven) is that it is illogical and false to assume that Rinoa and Ultimecia's voices "sound" differently just because you read something off a dialogue box. It is you who has been speculating and it is you who is now attempting to cover up your error.

If you believe that Rinoa and Ultimecia have different voices, then prove it. And even if you do prove it, you then have to PROVE that they are not the same person BECAUSE they have different voices. As it has already been evidenced by Adel, people who awaken from stasis may in fact have significantly altered semantics and linguistics. This means that if Rinoa ever was put into stasis, the awkward manner of Ultimecia speaking actually SUPPORTS the R=U theory, lol . Thanks! Why were you even arguing this if it supports my side of the argument? lol


-LYCHON

[daggertrepe]

Read my previous post. I fixed it up.

[Zeromus_X]

There isn't anything else to be said. Simple answer to what some people think is a complex question. :) Granted, I don't really care anymore because you'll probably think what you want to anyway. :cat:

The Ultimania guide said that sorceresses have normal human lifespans. Rinoa becomes a sorceress. She cannot live however many generations into the future of the time of Ultimecia. :) It doesn't require that much thought.

[Blitz Ace]

when i read the title of this thread, it made me think that Rinoa was Lord Voldemort... i was like, now thats going to far... :p

[daggertrepe]

when i read the title of this thread, it made me think that Rinoa was Lord Voldemort... i was like, now thats going to far... :p

Hahaha...that's funny...:)

[Lychon]

Acutally, you contradicted yourself. You stated that you never said that Rinoa is actually Ultimecia, you just THINK she is.

Yet the title says:

Rinoa IS you know who! Stop denying it!

So there, you stated that you BELIEVE she is Ultimecia.

I think you're making excuses cuz you can't back your theory up well enough. There is a difference between thinking and knowing.

The theory is backed up enough for me to say that I have proven the plausibility and possibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia. Perhaps if you actually read the first post in this thread and argued the points in the proof you would have more credibility.

I don't understand why you people continue to be stubborn. IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT IT IS BOTH POSSIBLE AND PLAUSIBLE FOR RINOA TO BE ULTIMECIA! ADMIT IT!! SUBMIT IT!! BOW DOWN TO IT!!

:D
-LYCHON

[G SpOtZ]

It's also been proven that it's possible, plausible and probable that she's NOT Ulti.

[Lychon]

It's also been proven that it's possible, plausible and probable that she's NOT Ulti.

By saying that it is possible and plausible that Rinoa is Ultimecia, this implies that is also possible and plausible that Rinoa is not Ultimecia. As far as probability goes, I do not agree. I have yet to provide a detailed proof of the probability of Rinoa being Ultimecia.

By the way, it's interesting how you seem to have now abandoned your concept of Ultimecia's accent since you discovered that that argument was actually working against you, LOL ......But just for kicks, why don't you go ahead and show us some images and dialogue from Ultimecia that proves your theory about "accents." Show us exactly where the accent marks are and how this translates to a specific pronounciation that determines some accent.

Oh, and when you're done with that, go ahead and PROVE that Ultimecia's accent is different from Rinoa's.

I'll be waiting for that....

P.S. One last thing: Since you admit to the possibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, then you must obviously disagree with the statement in the FFVIII FAQ which states that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. Since you have to admit that the FAQ is incorrect, this contradicts your ENTIRE position in your previous posts.....LOL!

-LYCHON

P.S. Billy Idol says "Mony Mony!!!"

[G SpOtZ]

Umm, I wouldn't call it "abandoning"... it's just that, there's simply nothing more to add. We're both using the same arguements over and over again. You're being unreasonable and not even understanding my points. I've already understood your points: no, there's no voice acting, duhh.
I still want you to explain to me the reason for Ulti having differently spelled words and accents above some letters, with good evidence. Do you have any? As far as I can see, I haven't abandoned anything, I'm just waiting for you.

And will you hurry up and just state the probability? I'm gonna abandon this whole thing, just because you take forever.

[Lychon]

Umm, I wouldn't call it "abandoning"... it's just that, there's simply nothing more to add. We're both using the same arguements over and over again. You're being unreasonable and not even understanding my points. I've already understood your points: no, there's no voice acting, duhh.
I still want you to explain to me the reason for Ulti having differently spelled words and accents above some letters, with good evidence. Do you have any? As far as I can see, I haven't abandoned anything, I'm just waiting for you.

And will you hurry up and just state the probability? I'm gonna abandon this whole thing, just because you take forever.

I have already explained Ultimecia's dialogue in my posts above. Take a look and try reading them if you actually want to get my answer (post # 67). I am still waiting for you to provide proof of these "accent marks" of which you speak and then provide a pronounciation guide for them and then prove that such a pronounciation is different from Rinoa's.

Do all that, and you will have lended even more credibility to the R=U theory. :D

-LYCHON

[G SpOtZ]

You have the game, don't you? Go look for them.

And please, don't wait for me. Go on with your theory, or else you're just going to bore everybody even more.

[Qurange]

Okay, you want something to act against your theory? There are a few lines in the game that can supply that, such as when the party is told that Ultimecia exists far in the future--so far that none of them could exist there. Now, sure, it's /possible/ that through some ridiculous gymnastics of logic, Rinoa can magically become Ultimecia, just like it's /possible/ that Quistis secretly has a twin sister who works for a secret project among scientists in Centra. However, it's not really plausible. You'd have to make up a lot of things to even make it possible in the first place, and even then, there's no reason to accept it as a common theory; it's out of sync with the game, and there's more evidence against it (the above line, the fact that Sorceresses have normal life spans) than not. Saying it's 'not possible' is the same as saying that the idea that there's some huge conspiracy controlling tea is 'not possible'--it's an overstatement, but it might as well be the truth.

A good theory tends to work /with/ canon, not against it. It could be done, maybe--but personally, I tend to find that it's nothing but an angst-trip that takes away from the game. I don't find it to be a /good/ idea, so I have no intention of 'bowing down'--not when there's so much in /canon/ to work with.

[Ryushikaze]

Postulate deemed to violate all manner of parsimony. Postulate is also deemed wanting in its fulfilling of its burden, especially in light of its previous parsimony violations.

Judgement- Postulate is to be ridiculed like the conspiracy 'theory' it is.

[Viator]

P.S. By the way, I'm still waiting for you to disprove my proof about the possibility and plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia..."taps finger on table"......(still waiting for you to prove that Rinoa is not Ultimecia, even though she most ABSOLUTELY POSITVELY IS, as far as I am concerned).

I already prove Rinoa is not Ultimecia.


Well there's only two person can prove who Ultimecia is beside Ultimecia herself.
Edea and Rinoa
If Rinoa is Ultimecia that means Edea already know right away when she sees Rinoa.But Edea doesnt know anything about Rinoa.That means Rinoa CANT be Ultimecia.
When Rinoa and Edea get possesessed by Ultimecia they only know that there's a sorceress called Ultimecia inside their body.So this prove that Ultimecia = Ultimecia.

I think this (My) statement is enough to destroy R=U theory for good.


I don't understand why you people continue to be stubborn. IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT IT IS BOTH POSSIBLE AND PLAUSIBLE FOR RINOA TO BE ULTIMECIA! ADMIT IT!! SUBMIT IT!! BOW DOWN TO IT!!

Sometimes plausibility and possibility is not always true.
It only the matter of perspective.

Well Lychon just get to the point.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Now, we can all know (or at least, we can all comprehend) that when suppositions such as "time compression" and "time manipulation" come into play, any order of normal life spans based on "normal time" become obsolete and extraneous. The concept of time compression also dismantles the syllogistic argument of recursive and subsequently independent "moment-to-moment" time, because the very nature of time compression seeks to coagulate all time and all moments together, therefore instituting a universal singularity with one time and one continuity that possesses unabridged cause and effect.

So what does this all mean? It indicates that Ultimecia's leverage in Squall and Rinoa's timeline most conclusively altered their future due to the temporary temporal singularity created by Ultimecia's attempt at time compression. Because of time compression, no lateral or surrogate timelines or universes are generated and no paradoxes are encountered. Instead, we have the realization of one of man's most ancient fantasies: changing the past. When the temporary time compression phenomenon ended upon Ultimecia's destruction and time was "unfolded" from its compressed state to its "normal" state, a reverberation agent created an echo effect from the point in the time dimension signifying Rinoa and Squall's time into and throughout the future, based accordingly upon the changes caused by Ultimecia's interference in the past.

This subsequently means that if Rinoa ever was on course to become the sorceress Ultimecia, she may now never consummate this possibility because of the reverberating repercussions in the future caused by Ultimecia in Rinoa and Squall's timeline. The ultimate denouement may very well be a completely different future.I'll give you one post to explain whatever it is you're talking about here, using plain English and citing the game's text for support. If you are not able to do so, I will consider it true that your entire founding argument is a pile of crap and close this thread posthaste.

[Viator]

I think it's not really necessary talking about that accent.

[Christmas]

This whole theory here is as valid as my PuPu = FF VIII TrUe HeRo ThEoRy.

[G SpOtZ]

This whole theory here is as valid as my PuPu = FF VIII TrUe HeRo ThEoRy.
What are you talking about? PuPu is DEFINITELY the true hero of FFVIII! Hands down.

[Viator]

It proves that simply because sorceresses have normal life spans does not mean that they are limited to that period of time.

Good point.

[Slade]

Not that it means anything after 3 pages but I just like to say that I still believe the R=U theory to be true, even if there is that whole arguement about the lifespan of sorceresses. I think the theory adds a dramatic twist and even more greatness to an already great story and gives Ultimecia a little more purpose (not that she didn't have purpose already, but she would have much more). I've always wondered why so many people are deadly against it......the only reason I could come up with is that they can't bare to see Rinoa become Ultimecia and ruin a happy ending. What baloney. (For the record, I love the ending. But I would also love it if the R=U theory were true)

There.......2 cents worth :D

[daggertrepe]

Are we done discussing yet? Clearly, Lychon has proven her point, and everyone else has proven theirs. This is seriously getting to be a bunch of arguements. Can't we all just be cool, now? :cool:

But I would have to say that she's probably not Ulit cuz that would ruin everything.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Actually about the whole thing about not being able to hear Ultimecias voice...

Well just before you fighter when the batle starts and Ultimecia says

"I´ll start with you three"

When she appears in the batle screen you can hear her laughing she as a strong womans voice...i´m not making it up if you don´t believe use a safe file if you have one an check it out.

[rubah]

If ultimecia was rinoa, then wouldn't rinoa have a funny gut feeling that way video game characters do when something unusual like maybe fighting yourself would be?

Rinoa is not a must-have character for teh final battle. In fact, she isn't needed at all. Therefore the laws of videogame physics states that clearly ultimecia has no extraneous relationship to her, at all. Like it's dumb to keep arguing it.

I mean, you can't break the laws of video game physics. It's just not done.

[eragon1]

Here's a simple questionWhy argue over something like this?Rinoa won't be ultimecia anyways because in the game you kill her.If you kill ultimecia then that means Rinoa should have died also.therefore they aren't the same.Anyways you kill Utimecia so it doesn't really matter right?If Rinoa does happen to be Ultimecia it won't happen with Squall around and i think in the game they would have brought something this important to our attention.

[daggertrepe]

Exactly. This whole conversation was pointless, stupid ramblings. I hope someone closes this.

[eragon1]

I agree.Someone should close this.The idea is to enjoy the game not argue over it.

[Ryushikaze]

I say we follow Ryukishi's ultimatum and give Lychon one final attempt to show any sort of evidence or reasoning, and when that falls through, slam the lock.

[atlanteay]

it's taking Lychon a long time to prove that R=U is true. :rolleyes2 I would personally like to see his proof because i believe this theory and i would like to know even more proof to this theory to prove that i'm not nuts and that i believe in a rather good theory.

[Jojee]

Yes, Rinoa is Voldemort :love:

[~SapphireStar~]

it's taking Lychon a long time to prove that R=U is true.
Shes been offline since yesturday, so how can she go out and get you the proof. Just wait for her to come back online ok? Theres no point asking for proof when shes not here.

[atlanteay]

I didn't mean right now geez! don't have to get all mad. I meant in all four pages of posts, he didn't do anything but argue with people when he could've presented his proof and have everyone be impressed. What's with that? Now his thread is on the edge of getting closed because he just won't get to the point.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Lychon is a guy not a girl.

[Xurts]

Here's a simple questionWhy argue over something like this?Rinoa won't be ultimecia anyways because in the game you kill her.If you kill ultimecia then that means Rinoa should have died also.therefore they aren't the same.Anyways you kill Utimecia so it doesn't really matter right?If Rinoa does happen to be Ultimecia it won't happen with Squall around and i think in the game they would have brought something this important to our attention.
Actually it would be theoretically possible to kill your future self and still exist. It's also possible to kill yourself in the past and still exist in the present/future. But in this case, Rinoa and Ultimecia are not the same person, so all of that doesn't matter.

I like what rubah said. When you go to fight Ultimecia in the future, you would think that she would recognize HERSELF from the past.

[Captain Maxx Power]

I'll be honest, I've scanned past everything said so far in the hope that Future Esthar would have posted something. Sadly, he hasn't :(

[atlanteay]

didn't the original theory say that since squall died, Rinoa is filled with hatred and sorrow and that she forgets many things and goes mad trying to take over the world and etc... and became Ultimecia?

[eragon1]

if Rinoa really was Ultimecia wouldn't Doc Odine know.remember he was the one who found out about Ultimecia.if Squall went through time transformation shouldn't they have battled Rinoa along with the other Sorceresses.Then again..

Ultimecia had the GF griever.Ultimecia could have made Griever come to life from the ring squall gave Rinoa with her magical powers,Does anyone understand me because I'm starting to confuse myself?

[~SapphireStar~]

I didn't mean right now geez! don't have to get all mad.
Oh my god, in what way was I being mad. I was jsut saying to wait for them to log back on and see if they can provide any more proof to the theory.


didn't the original theory say that since squall died, Rinoa is filled with hatred and sorrow and that she forgets many things and goes mad trying to take over the world and etc... and became Ultimecia?
Yeah Ive read that before somewhere. She also hates SeeD. Where was it? Cant remember, but I agreed with it.

[Lychon]

it's taking Lychon a long time to prove that R=U is true. :rolleyes2 I would personally like to see his proof because i believe this theory and i would like to know even more proof to this theory to prove that i'm not nuts and that i believe in a rather good theory.
First, I want to reiterate what I have already stated many times: I am not out to prove that the R=U theory is true. I am out to prove that that theory is possible and more plausible than your average imaginary figment. The theory may very well be false, but I believe that I have proved its plausibility and possibility in my very first post. In this post, per the request of Kawaii Ryûkishi, I will elaborate upon and simplify the first post in this thread. But please do not confuse “possible” with “definite.”



Okay, you want something to act against your theory? There are a few lines in the game that can supply that, such as when the party is told that Ultimecia exists far in the future--so far that none of them could exist there. Now, sure, it's /possible/ that through some ridiculous gymnastics of logic, Rinoa can magically become Ultimecia, just like it's /possible/ that Quistis secretly has a twin sister who works for a secret project among scientists in Centra. However, it's not really plausible. You'd have to make up a lot of things to even make it possible in the first place, and even then, there's no reason to accept it as a common theory; it's out of sync with the game, and there's more evidence against it (the above line, the fact that Sorceresses have normal life spans) than not. Saying it's 'not possible' is the same as saying that the idea that there's some huge conspiracy controlling tea is 'not possible'--it's an overstatement, but it might as well be the truth.

A good theory tends to work /with/ canon, not against it. It could be done, maybe--but personally, I tend to find that it's nothing but an angst-trip that takes away from the game. I don't find it to be a /good/ idea, so I have no intention of 'bowing down'--not when there's so much in /canon/ to work with.

Anyone can concoct whimsical suppositions such as Quistis having a twin sister and claim that they are “possible.” I have not stretched the use of logic or reason by supplying proof of the plausibility and possibility of the R=U theory. On the contrary, the theory has been substantiated by the simple, step-by-step dialectics evident in my first post. Nothing has to be made up for the possibility and plausibility of Rinoa reaching Ultimecia’s time period alive. Since you probably did not read my first post (and even if you did, you did not understand it), I will now furnish a detailed explanation of it. The R=U theory does not take away anything from the game and it does not violate anything that has been established canonical. I find that the theory adds immensely to the plot of FFVIII, and it seems that you are attempting to fabricate false means of disproving the theory just because you cannot appreciate it. No one is stating that R=U is absolutely true. The theory has been proved plausible and possible and most definitely fits in with the game’s plot. It may very well be false, but it is definitely more plausible than some random figment such as the idea that Quistis has a twin sister.




I'll give you one post to explain whatever it is you're talking about here, using plain English and citing the game's text for support. If you are not able to do so, I will consider it true that your entire founding argument is a pile of crap and close this thread posthaste.


Simplification of POST # 1 in this thread: This is what my first post basically says: If Ultimecia had not interfered in Rinoa and Squall’s original time line, Rinoa may very well have been locked away in the Sorceress Memorial, only this time she is not rescued or freed by Squall or anyone else. Hundreds of years in the future, she is somehow released, and her original intention is to bring back the individuals she knew and loved in her original time. She realizes that she can only accomplish this through time manipulation. Her sadness turns to bitterness and eventually to a consuming hatred of the world that locked her away for centuries. Her sorceress powers and her undying hatred eventually eclipse her memories of her friends and her original time. She is consumed by her hatred and becomes only focused on her original goal of time manipulation so that she can enact vengeance upon the entire world. Time manipulation turns into the more specific time compression. At this point, Rinoa is no longer Rinoa. She becomes Ultimecia and completely loses her former identity and memory to her bitterness and hatred.

The reason I had to discuss the theoretical aspects of time compression in my first post was so I could validate it against a previous argument. In modern speculations and studies of temporal physics, it has been suggested that once an event has come to occur in a timeline, it cannot be changed even if someone travels to the past and alters the past. This is because time is supposedly qualified by infinitesimal “moment-to-moment” time; meaning that each successive moment is related to the “previous” but is thereafter forever independent. This suggests that even though Ultimecia influenced the past, it would not change the future one bit. However, when time compression is considered, all “moments” in time become one, and therefore lose there independence.

So, “in plain English,” what does this mean? It means that even though Rinoa may have eventually become Ultimecia in the future, she may now never realize this possibility because of Ultimecia’s interference in her timeline. Ultimecia died in the future, and due to time compression, she may never come about again. So if Rinoa was ever on a path to becoming Ultimecia, she may now face an entirely different future.

Done and done. R=U lives!! I believe that I have explained myself and this thread should be left open for further discussion because its purpose is just that: discussion. But you were right to say that I should have elaborated my grandiloquent first post.



Exactly. This whole conversation was pointless, stupid ramblings. I hope someone closes this.

If you do not want to be part of a thread or if you have nothing useful to contribute, then please do not waste my time and everyone else’s time by repeatedly asking for this thread to be closed. It is a legitimate topic that will be closed if the moderator’s deem it appropriate to do so.

-LYCHON

[Xurts]

didn't the original theory say that since squall died, Rinoa is filled with hatred and sorrow and that she forgets many things and goes mad trying to take over the world and etc... and became Ultimecia?
Yeah. Squall gets stuck in that timeless warp, and Rinoa gets POed and wants to compress time to bring him back. I find it unlikely that she would forget her reason for compressing time and what her past self was like.

[~SapphireStar~]

@ everyone: Right, so theres no harm in looking into this as fact, but a possiblity? So there is no need for people to state its wrong and false when its for those who are open minded and think there could be more to the ending of the game.

[Omni-Odin]

I would like to point out that if this were true, the game may have had one of the best stories of all time. I love the game in all aspects except the origin of Ultimecia, which it didn't really give. God, I wish they stated it was her in the game.

[Lychon]

@ everyone: Right, so theres no harm in looking into this as fact, but a possiblity? So there is no need for people to state its wrong and false when its for those who are open minded and think there could be more to the ending of the game.

Thanks SapphireStar...I know some people may find the R=U theory absurd, but I believe that the reasoning behind its possibility and plausibility is sound.

-LYCHON

[Qurange]

One problem:

Exactly how does Rinoa live for those hundreds of years? The Sorceress Memorial is /not/ true stasis; it's a prison.

(Idly, I /did/ read the first post, and you still haven't dealt with the statement that Ultimecia exists in a time where Rinoa couldn't exist. Saying 'but she's Ultimecia, not Rinoa' isn't good enough, nor is dismissing my post because you don't like what's in it. As I recall, you accused Sir Bahamut of doing the same thing, so it might be good if you didn't do so.)

Likewise, using Time Compression as a catchall isn't good enough, either; as far as can be shown, Time Compression /ended/ and all of its effects were reversed. The most that could have happened is that a few things would have ended up in the wrong time, but as Rinoa clearly did not, the theory doesn't hold up.

Rinoa is not Ultimecia; the idea could maybe be a decent fanfiction, but that's it. ...Excepting, of course, that it's been done badly a thousand times. I'll acknowledge that it's /possible/, and that your theory is at least better than 'because I said so'...but I still don't see it as particularly plausible.

[Xurts]

I would like to point out that if this were true, the game may have had one of the best stories of all time. I love the game in all aspects except the origin of Ultimecia, which it didn't really give. God, I wish they stated it was her in the game.
The only explanation that the game gives is that Ultimecia is a very powerful sorceress in the future who wants to compress time. That's it. The game doesn't give a reason as to why Ultimecia wants to compress time either.

[Qurange]

Personally, I don't even really /like/ the idea; sure, it's one way to explain things away, but I find it dull. It basically says 'everything ever is about Squall and Rinoa; there are no other motivating factors in the universe.'

I much prefer the idea that Ultimecia is a totally separate person, with her own motivations and goals that she simply felt no need to disclose. It opens a lot of doors, and doesn't twist Rinoa's character beyond recognition.

[Lychon]

One problem:

Exactly how does Rinoa live for those hundreds of years? The Sorceress Memorial is /not/ true stasis; it's a prison.

(Idly, I /did/ read the first post, and you still haven't dealt with the statement that Ultimecia exists in a time where Rinoa couldn't exist. Saying 'but she's Ultimecia, not Rinoa' isn't good enough, nor is dismissing my post because you don't like what's in it. As I recall, you accused Sir Bahamut of doing the same thing, so it might be good if you didn't do so.)

Likewise, using Time Compression as a catchall isn't good enough, either; as far as can be shown, Time Compression /ended/ and all of its effects were reversed. The most that could have happened is that a few things would have ended up in the wrong time, but as Rinoa clearly did not, the theory doesn't hold up.

Rinoa is not Ultimecia; the idea could maybe be a decent fanfiction, but that's it. ...Excepting, of course, that it's been done badly a thousand times. I'll acknowledge that it's /possible/, and that your theory is at least better than 'because I said so'...but I still don't see it as particularly plausible.

First off, neither you nor I know the exact technical specifics of the Sorceress Memorial. From what I understood in the game and from the appearance of Adel after her release, the Sorceress Memorial appears to be a prison in which the captive is placed in stasis. I cannot claim this with absolute definitude because I am not capable of issuing canonical statements about FFVIII. Most of the people with whom I have argued agree that the Sorceress Memorial is some kind of stasis-inducing prison.

Secondly, no one here is using time compression as a "catchall." Time compression is central to the plot of Final Fantasy VIII, and it just so happens that much of the logic behind the possibility and plausibility of R=U revolves around the physical and metaphysical consequences of the event.

Lastly, you are contradicting yourself by now blatantly stating that "Rinoa is not Ultimecia," when you recently admitted that it WAS possible for the theory to be true. (Refer to your statements in post # 78). Unlike you, I do not deal in absolutes because I do not have the authority to do so and I am not arrogant enough to claim to be of authority. I believe I have proven that R=U both plausible and possible. If you refuse to submit to basic logic and rationale, then I'm not you can understand what I am trying to prove.

-LYCHON

EDIT: I want to add a quick note. As most of us know, the Sorceress Memorial was constructed as a facility to seal the powers of a sorceress. If the sorceress is not placed in some kind STASIS, but is simply imprisoned, then the entire facility is useless because simple imprisonment does not restrict a sorceress’s powers. Therefore, it is likely that ADEL MUST have been placed in stasis for her to be effectively quarantined AND prevent her from using any of her powers. Now that's what I call a LOGIC BOMB!!!!

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Do you think Dr.Odine might be Ultimecias great grandfather?

[Lychon]

Do you think Dr.Odine might be Ultimecias great grandfather?

I just edited my last post with a small addition (the bold at the bottom). I believe my last post PROVES that the Sorceress Memorial, along with being a prison, is also a kind of stasis-inducing facility for sorceresses. This means that there is DEFINITELY a SIMPLE and LOGICAL WAY that does not violate the games canonical presentations for Rinoa to reach Ultimecia's time period. R=U Lives!!!

And no, I do not think Dr. Odine is Ultimecia's great grandfather because Ultimecia lives much farther into the future. If Odine was related to Ultimecia in any way, then you should formulate a hypothesis with a proof of the idea's plausibility (just like I have done for R=U).


-LYCHON

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Do you think Dr.Odine might be Ultimecias great grandfather?

I just edited my last post with a small addition (the bold at the bottom). I believe my last post PROVES that the Sorceress Memorial, along with being a prison, is also a kind of stasis-inducing facility for sorceresses. This means that there is DEFINITELY a SIMPLE and LOGICAL WAY that does not violate the games canonical presentations for Rinoa to reach Ultimecia's time period. R=U Lives!!!

And no, I do not think Dr. Odine is Ultimecia's great grandfather because Ultimecia lives much farther into the future. If Odine was related to Ultimecia in any way, then you should formulate a hypothesis with a proof of the idea's plausibility (just like I have done for R=U).


-LYCHON

They both change the letter s with the letter z if i´m not mistaken.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Nowhere did you cite any text from the game's script to support your theory, and from my flawless computer memory, none exists. In the future, please post threads such as these in the Writer's Corner. That's where fanfiction belongs.