Revelation of Time Compression

[Lionheart00]

What are you all arguing about...it is just a game!!!
The creators can make anything they want to happen in it.....it doesnt have to be explained......sometimes it cant be explained.............

[Zeromus_X]

Unfortunately, alot of foolish people seem to think otherwise.

[G SpOtZ]

I wonder if anyone else noticed that now that Viator is a regular here, Future suddenly stopped coming ;)
We're on the same page, bro.

[Lionheart00]

It sounds like someone always has to be right....cough Viator cough

[f f freak]

I agree with ya Lionheart00

[Ryushikaze]

Understood but still the process will go on forever.

Not if she consumes a finite amount of time, which her point in time to the start of time is.


I already give the argument why time is infinite.

A flawed argument.


And again this Life is enough to prove time is infinite.

Does not follow.


And I am sure you can prove time is infinite too.

But why should I want to?


Let we figured it out then.

How about you give your empirical support for why time is infinite, and then explain why this empirical evidence points to infinite time.


Perspective.

Perspective has nothing to do with it. Your inability to realize that they naturally follow from each other.


Yeah the meaning of compressing and absorbing can become the same meaning in TC Condition, it only the matter how you look at that.

You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?


I am sure you can prove it yourself.

NO. DO YOUR OWN WORK OR CONCEDE THE ISSUE.


There's no such thing like compressed time in the game.

So you CLAIM. PROVE IT. EVERYONE WHO WOULD KNOW DISAGREES WITH YOU.


His assumption makes sense.

And so did the earth being flat to the flat earthers. The assumption was still unfounded. All conclusions drawn from an unfounded premise are themselves unfounded.


If that so you can prove time is infinite right?

Time being infinite or finite depends on Cunch, Heat Death, or perpetual universe. And while I'd like the universe to be perpetual, it is unproven, as it the status of time. What I do know, however, is that in any given time frame- excepting the potential for perpetuity, time is finite.


If that can come to an end... you go first...

The universe is not going to heat death or crunch in our lifetimes.


Dont misunderstand Her action.

"Mister Kettle? There's a Mister Pot on Line two. Says it's about color."


Yes you can, it just beyond our understanding to imagine it.

And thus it is equally possible to compress something infinite. And easier, too, since you only have to worry about it compressing until it hits critical, then you can do with it at your leisure. If you begin with absorption, you've got a lot more effort to waste.


Still their theories about gravity is the truth about how this universe works.

No, they are not. I will say this once more before I lose my patience and start treating you like a learning deficient monkey and break out the hand puppets, so please, listen to me, okay? THEIR THEORIES ARE NOT TRUTH. REALITY IS THE ONLY 'TRUTH'. THEORIES ARE THE BEST FIT EXPLANATION OF OBSERVATIONAL DATA ABOUT SAID REALITY.


Continue your explanation.

I've explained it about five times already. You, who keeps telling everyone else to refer elsewhere, should look back for yourself.


It doesnt matter if this process will go on forever.
That why there's 2 Ultimecias.
The First Ultimecia will keep the process of TC forever.
The Second Ultimecia will reign in TC World


The 'second' ultimecia was a power generator, converting reality into spells for the primary one. There is nothing to support the notion that this ulti would rule, or even could do anything on its own, attached as it was to the primary, and bound by the belts all over its body.

[Mirage]

Look at this:
Time Absorbtion will never complete if time in infinite, thus she will keep doing it forever.
Time Compression will never complete if time is infinite, thus she will keep doing it forever.

It doesnt matter if this process will go on forever.
That why there's 2 Ultimecias.
The First Ultimecia will keep the process of TC forever.
The Second Ultimecia will reign in TC World

That is also completely irrelevant to what I said, so you didn't really comment on what I said.
It just looks like you disregarded what I said entirely and went on with your own thing. As usual.

[Christmas]

My Dear Viator, do Squall having his Lionheart gunblade had anything to do with you 9 pages long stuff?

[Viator]

I wonder if anyone else noticed that now that Viator is a regular here, Future suddenly stopped coming

I am afraid you are wrong I am not Future Esthar.


If you can absorb it then you can compress it. It is obviously just beyond your understanding to imagine it is how I think you put it.

I already said the meaning of compressing can become absorbing in Time Compression Condition.


Not if she consumes a finite amount of time, which her point in time to the start of time is.

She has to consume all time, that is TC is all about.


A flawed argument.

Even I show you perfect argument, you will just said that is flawed argument so why bother?


But why should I want to?

To show that you understand about time.


How about you give your empirical support for why time is infinite, and then explain why this empirical evidence points to infinite time.

I already give and you just dont understand.


Perspective has nothing to do with it. Your inability to realize that they naturally follow from each other.

It just your inability to understand My explanation.


You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

No, you are the one who doesnt understand what I am talking about.


So you CLAIM. PROVE IT. EVERYONE WHO WOULD KNOW DISAGREES WITH YOU.

You are the one should prove it because you are the one believes it.


And so did the earth being flat to the flat earthers. The assumption was still unfounded. All conclusions drawn from an unfounded premise are themselves unfounded.

That means bible is unfounded argument too.


Time being infinite or finite depends on Cunch, Heat Death, or perpetual universe. And while I'd like the universe to be perpetual, it is unproven, as it the status of time. What I do know, however, is that in any given time frame- excepting the potential for perpetuity, time is finite.

Prove time is finite.


I've explained it about five times already. You, who keeps telling everyone else to refer elsewhere, should look back for yourself.

So you cant add more explanation... that's too bad.



The 'second' ultimecia was a power generator, converting reality into spells for the primary one. There is nothing to support the notion that this ulti would rule, or even could do anything on its own, attached as it was to the primary, and bound by the belts all over its body.

Before you fight Her, She said "I will reign"



That is also completely irrelevant to what I said, so you didn't really comment on what I said.
It just looks like you disregarded what I said entirely and went on with your own thing. As usual.

That is relevant.


My Dear Viator, do Squall having his Lionheart gunblade had anything to do with you 9 pages long stuff?

No.
And stop calling "dear"

[Christmas]

Mr Dearest Viator, do having Zell in your party during the final battle have anything to do with your 9 pages long of stuff?

[G SpOtZ]

Mr Dearest Viator, do having Zell in your party during the final battle have anything to do with your 9 pages long of stuff?
You're my hero, but I'm still gonna reside in the LAND OF LOVE <3

[Ryushikaze]

I am afraid you are wrong I am not Future Esthar.

But you are the resident conspiracy theorist, and most boards can handle but one. It must be your shift.


I already said the meaning of compressing can become absorbing in Time Compression Condition.

Time compression's true purpose? To change the meaning of words... ::rolls eyes:: EXPLAIN HOW.


She has to consume all time, that is TC is all about.

Quote the evidence, si vou plait.


Even I show you perfect argument, you will just said that is flawed argument so why bother?

Because you are a conspiracy nut? If you can provide an argument based on a sound and supported premise, be my guest.


To show that you understand about time.

But I do. Do you? Maybe you should prove how time is finite.


I already give and you just dont understand.

Vague handwaves to life and continued existence do not empirical support make.


It just your inability to understand My explanation.

Or your inability to form a coherent explanation.


No, you are the one who doesnt understand what I am talking about.

Me and the rest of the world. Ad populum may be a fallacy, but when you are the only person who has any idea what you're blabbering about, the problem probably lies with you.


You are the one should prove it because you are the one believes it.

Back atcha. As for proving it, here goes. "The writers of the game support my position about their own game. Their word is law about the story of their own product. They could make Squall a Pupu and it would be law, and there is nothing your arguments can do to change that."


That means bible is unfounded argument too.

Good of you to notice.


Prove time is finite.

Big Bang to now= Finite time. Assuming either heat death or crunch, finite time. Only in perpetual universe does time not 'end'. Odds favor finite time. Even with cyclical time, the amount of time is finite.


So you cant add more explanation... that's too bad.

"Mister Kettle? Mister Pot is still waiting on line two. Keeps saying something about 'black'."


Before you fight Her, She said "I will reign"

Yes, the PRIMARY Ultimecia says that. She will reign. Not her little slave generator body.

[Sir Bahamut]

I am afraid you are wrong I am not Future Esthar.

Perhaps.......from your PERSPECTIVE :eek: :eek: :eek:

[G SpOtZ]

I am afraid you are wrong I am not Future Esthar.

Perhaps.......from your PERSPECTIVE :eek: :eek: :eek:
Win.

[Viator]

Mr Dearest Viator, do having Zell in your party during the final battle have anything to do with your 9 pages long of stuff?

You answer it yourself.


But you are the resident conspiracy theorist, and most boards can handle but one. It must be your shift.

Now you judged Me.
You are unbelieveable.



Time compression's true purpose? To change the meaning of words... ::rolls eyes:: EXPLAIN HOW.

I already said it almost the same like shooting star, got that?


Because you are a conspiracy nut? If you can provide an argument based on a sound and supported premise, be my guest.

Say what you want maybe I should just ignore you from the first time.


But I do. Do you? Maybe you should prove how time is finite.

I shouldnt explain time is finite because you are the one talking that time is finite.You are the one should explain it not Me.


Or your inability to form a coherent explanation.

No it just your inability to understand My explanation.



Me and the rest of the world. Ad populum may be a fallacy, but when you are the only person who has any idea what you're blabbering about, the problem probably lies with you.

The problem lies on one's perspective


Back atcha. As for proving it, here goes. "The writers of the game support my position about their own game. Their word is law about the story of their own product. They could make Squall a Pupu and it would be law, and there is nothing your arguments can do to change that."

They never stated "compressed time"


Big Bang to now= Finite time. Assuming either heat death or crunch, finite time. Only in perpetual universe does time not 'end'. Odds favor finite time. Even with cyclical time, the amount of time is finite.

Big Band to now is infinite time because space always expand and Time never stop.


Yes, the PRIMARY Ultimecia says that. She will reign. Not her little slave generator body.

How can you know?


Perhaps.......from your PERSPECTIVE

Then how can you prove that you are not Future Esthar?
Dont play smart with Me bahamut.
The way I explain something is very different from Future Esthar or you or anybody else, if you cant notice that that means you are a ...
I am Viator.

[Zeromus_X]

This thread really makes my head hurt.

Well, what are we going to do? Neither side is going to give up.*

Okay, how about this. Instead of PuPu being the true hero, it's really Cait Sith. He fell into a wormhole in the Golden Saucer. He teamed up with Belto Maxim from Final Fantasy X-2 and PuPu to make Final Fantasy VIII-2: The Truth of Time Compression. Because Time is Infinite, Cait Sith doesn't need to be controlled by Reeve-witten, and he can think independently. Because I say so, and I'm always right because time is infinite and you need to find the answer yourself.

Nah, they have different writing styles. I'm glad FE left, but this isn't much better...ah well, good for laughs.

*Meaning Viator won't give up, of course.

[Viator]

Nah, they have different writing styles

Glad someone can notice that.

[G SpOtZ]

I don't know, it's still suspicious. I used to not use correct grammar and punctuation when I was around, then I left for a few months, came back, and I'm typing correctly. Writing styles can change. FE wasn't fluent at English, and neither is Viator.

[Viator]

How can you prove that you are not FE, G Spotz?

[Zeromus_X]

Viator is 18, and FE is 25. Then again, we can make a theory regarding how that would work out.

Now where's my daily dosage of quote-post? Can't go through my day without quote-posts.

[hb2]

Ok boys, I think that this time compression thing is being read into WAY too deepley. I would wager that the men at Square never thought ANYONE would have this much time to waste on a minor part of Final Fantasy VIII's theory.
Ok, this is what I was alaways lead to believe, Ellone has the power screw with time, so Ulti used her to try to achieve time compression:

Because, as I've alaways though at least, Ulti wanted the powers of all Sorceresses, and she wanted to rule in a realm where she would never have to worry about being usurped.
Ok, so Ellone sends the gang to a time compressed wrold in progress (and yes, I mean time COMPRESSED, not absorbed or whatever)
Think about it, Ulti is trying to compress the entire dimension of time, how could this be possible? MAGIC!!! I don't know why this concept is so hard for Viator to get down, but that IS WHAT IS CAUSING IT. It's said countless times (hehe) in the game.

Anyway, the gang goes to Ulti's throne room and greases her. Because she is no longer compressing time, it falls back into whack, and everyone goes back home eventually.

No diagrams.
No equations.

But because Viator seems to think that no post is complete without confusing and misleading graphs...

3--------------------7-----------------------9-------sa----------11
|13***************************|**** **\**/
|***\2*****************************|**** ***\/
|****\*****************************|**** ** / 15
9*******>1------------1-----------------| /
|****/ 3

* = NOTHING (I just put them in to confuse everyone)
1 = Rinoa (PRESENT)
2 = squall, i think...
3 = this is where rinoa like, goes to compress the addetive inverse of time....
5 = wait, no, she first did this other stuff to find cc players?
6 = ultimecia uses the stoichyometric properties to controle time shifts
9 = and then...like, squall finds some island
9 = but at the same time, a bunch of stuff happends with the other sorceress
8 = Time Compression
9 = Time Decompression
8 = Time Wasted while the gang discusses these events in less detail than we are
11 = Sarah Conner
14= Miller Time
15 = Rinoa found Squall and after that back to the present

But really, this can be summed up with this impractical formula.

I=Am+(A)\Dork:For*%%-----Reading\\\}}}}}This```Useless///Tripe+=\That**Would-Make +The\Developers~Laugh-((((ThereButt'sOff
actually i think i still agree with this post the most atm, at first i tried to believe viator but this makes much more sence.

[G SpOtZ]

How can you prove that you are not FE, G Spotz?
If you can get his phone number, and if you get my phone number, and we talk at the same time, we're two different people. Also, maybe you can track him down where he lives, and track down where I live, and you'll know we're two different people.

Also, my English is proper, unlike FE's. And I don't make ridiculous theories, like you or FE. =]

[Viator]

If you can get his phone number, and if you get my phone number, and we talk at the same time, we're two different people. Also, maybe you can track him down where he lives, and track down where I live, and you'll know we're two different people.

That is My answer too.

[G SpOtZ]

Okay, give me your phone number and give me his phone number. =]

[Viator]

Okay, give me your phone number and give me his phone number.

If I give you My phone number I have to kill you.
How the hell can I know his phone number?
I dont even know him.
And please stop talking this FE think and stay on topic.

[Sir Bahamut]

But we are on topic, aren't we......FUTURE ESTHAR! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[G SpOtZ]

:eek:

I have proof you are FE!

You don't want to give your own phone number away, and you say you cannot give his phone number, so you must be the same person! Also, you're completely trying to avoid this talk of FE, so you MUST be FE! I'm right! I've proven it!
(If you read it over and over again you'll understand)

Also, Time Compression is possible, becuase sorcery (in this game, and not in real life) is possible, and there is a type of sorcery that allows time compression, therefore, time compression is real. As well as other impossible things, like magic, and summoning creatures, and talking GFs, and Squall getting a freaking icicle through his heart and living.

[hb2]

Ok boys, I think that this time compression thing is being read into WAY too deepley. I would wager that the men at Square never thought ANYONE would have this much time to waste on a minor part of Final Fantasy VIII's theory.
Ok, this is what I was alaways lead to believe, Ellone has the power screw with time, so Ulti used her to try to achieve time compression:

Because, as I've alaways though at least, Ulti wanted the powers of all Sorceresses, and she wanted to rule in a realm where she would never have to worry about being usurped.
Ok, so Ellone sends the gang to a time compressed wrold in progress (and yes, I mean time COMPRESSED, not absorbed or whatever)
Think about it, Ulti is trying to compress the entire dimension of time, how could this be possible? MAGIC!!! I don't know why this concept is so hard for Viator to get down, but that IS WHAT IS CAUSING IT. It's said countless times (hehe) in the game.

Anyway, the gang goes to Ulti's throne room and greases her. Because she is no longer compressing time, it falls back into whack, and everyone goes back home eventually.

No diagrams.
No equations.
actually i think i still agree with this post the most atm, at first i tried to believe viator but this makes much more sence.
ahem.. you ignored this post back on page 6. dont do again, just prove that this is wrong if you can, else just stop arguing this theory,

if this doesn't satisfie you, i'm sure i can find more posts in this topic which you have ignored for the sake of keeping your theory going on.

[Viator]

But we are on topic, aren't we......FUTURE ESTHAR!

If I am not FE you go to hell Bahamut If I am FE I go to hell, take this bet?
And this topic thread is TC not FE.



you're completely trying to avoid this talk of FE, so you MUST be FE! I'm right! I've proven it!
(If you read it over and over again you'll understand)

I ignored it to avoid this thread get closed.


time compression is real

Of course TC is real.


ahem.. you ignored this post back on page 6. dont do again, just prove that this is wrong if you can, else just stop arguing this theory,

I think I already answered it in thread no 178.


Ok, this is what I was alaways lead to believe, Ellone has the power screw with time, so Ulti used her to try to achieve time compression:

correct


Because, as I've alaways though at least, Ulti wanted the powers of all Sorceresses, and she wanted to rule in a realm where she would never have to worry about being usurped.


correct


Ok, so Ellone sends the gang to a time compressed wrold in progress

correct


Think about it, Ulti is trying to compress the entire dimension of time, how could this be possible? MAGIC!!! I don't know why this concept is so hard for Viator to get down, but that IS WHAT IS CAUSING IT. It's said countless times (hehe) in the game.

The answer is not as simple as magic.

[Christmas]

You answer it yourself.

You are suppose to answer it, dun tell me you dun know. That's mean this is a serious flaw in your 10 pages long of stuff if you doesn't even know whether my question had anything to do with your 10 pages long of stuff.

[Viator]

You are suppose to answer it, dun tell me you dun know. That's mean this is a serious flaw in your 10 pages long of stuff if you doesn't even know whether my question had anything to do with your 10 pages long of stuff.

If you really read My explanation you will know the answer.


Mr Dearest Viator, do having Zell in your party during the final battle have anything to do with your 9 pages long of stuff?

Having Zell in our party or not at the Final Battle is gameplay aspect.

[Mirage]

I can't believe I even attempt to discuss with you when you refuse to aknowledge my points. I'm just gonna say fuck you.

[Viator]

I can't believe I even attempt to discuss with you when you refuse to aknowledge my points. I'm just gonna say smurf you.

I response your points.

[Sir Bahamut]

If I am not FE you go to hell Bahamut If I am FE I go to hell, take this bet?

I'm just a KID, I'm not old enough to bet yet :(

[f f freak]

I'm sorry Viator but you keep saying people don't understand your explanation and that they should read it again. well maybe you should read it again and see if you can understand it through all those spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. If you can absorb something infinite then you can compress it. How does compressing something have anything to do with absorbing it?

[Ryushikaze]

If I am not FE you go to hell Bahamut If I am FE I go to hell, take this bet?

I'm just a KID, I'm not old enough to bet yet :(

I, on the other hand, am old enough, And I'd like to bet that there is no hell.

Pay up.

[f f freak]

Ha good one Ryushikaze.

[HowlingMonkey]

I, on the other hand, am old enough, And I'd like to bet that there is no hell.

Au contraire. Try reading all 10 pages in this thread in one go.

[Ryushikaze]

Pish posh. Tis comedic gold, not a hellish read.

Of course, WERE this thread hell, F- I mean Viator and Bahamut's bet would be redundant, as they are both already there.

[Viator]

I'm just a KID, I'm not old enough to bet yet

Says who?


well maybe you should read it again and see if you can understand it through all those spelling mistakes and grammatical errors

I understand it.


How does compressing something have anything to do with absorbing it?

The work of compressing is almost the same with absorbing if you can imagine it.


I, on the other hand, am old enough, And I'd like to bet that there is no hell.

Pay up.

You will find the answer after you dead.

If you compressing time it will destroyed.
If you absorbing time it will become something like a single point

[Ryushikaze]

Or, we can play the parsimony card and conclude that with absolutely zero empirical evidence to support your position, there is no reason to see it as true. And if you cannot prove that your pro-hell claim is true, we default to the negative, making me the winner of the bet.

Of course, if we play the parsimony card, this entire thread is meaningless, as your entire postulate is made redundant by the in game explanation.

Now then, back to your 'points', if they can be classed as such.


Now you judged Me.
You are unbelieveable.

On the contrary, the judging of others is not only believable, but utterly commonplace. At least I have the common decency to say what I think and not hide behind false civility.


I already said it almost the same like shooting star, got that?

...You've not explained how, or how shooting star is even relevant


Say what you want maybe I should just ignore you from the first time.

Perhaps, but then we wouldn't have had all this wonderful fun.


I shouldnt explain time is finite because you are the one talking that time is finite.You are the one should explain it not Me.

Thank you hypocrite. When you were telling me to prove your argument, don't try and tell me off when I turn the tables back on you.


No it just your inability to understand My explanation.

Nope, definitely your failure in the argument creation and explanations departments.


The problem lies on one's perspective

Then, by necessity, it is your perspective which has the problem.


They never stated "compressed time"

Anytime Ulti's intent is brought up, she is attempting to create a world where time is compressed.


Big Band to now is infinite time because space always expand and Time never stop.

No. No no no no no no no. Even if space and time continue infinitely, any GIVEN chunk of time is FINITE.


How can you know?

Because SGB never says or does anything, and PUB is the one to declare the intent.


If you compressing time that time will destroyed.
If you absorbing it it will become something like a single point

And in one tiny quote, you reveal your utter ignorance of the meaning of compression. A black hole is compressed matter. What is a black hole? A supermass in an ultratiny volume.

[Viator]

Or, we can play the parsimony card and conclude that with absolutely zero empirical evidence to support your position, there is no reason to see it as true. And if you cannot prove that your pro-hell claim is true, we default to the negative, making me the winner of the bet.

Of course, if we play the parsimony card, this entire thread is meaningless, as your entire postulate is made redundant by the in game explanation.

Tell that to your god, if you have one.


...You've not explained how, or how shooting star is even relevant

Time Compression is a word same as shoothing stars,we know that is not star we see fall BUT meteor.Scan Ultimecia it said Absorbing Time and Space NOT compressing.
This is the proof that TC is absorbing NOT compressing
So the meaning of Time Compression is Absorbing Time and Space NOT Compresseng Time and Space.


Perhaps, but then we wouldn't have had all this wonderful fun.

You call this wonderfull fun?
I call this a waste of time.


Thank you hypocrite. When you were telling me to prove your argument, don't try and tell me off when I turn the tables back on you.

Shut up.
You stated that time is finite but you dont even prove it.



Nope, definitely your failure in the argument creation and explanations departments.

This is your failure to understand it.
Ok let we try.


When TC happens it's not only absorb time and space but also energy because according to wave theory, time, space, and energy, are the three media that are woven together, (quant, wave formation). Wave theory shows how each has its own properties and behaviors, but one can not exist without the others, more over, each proposes explanation for the others, time alone do not exist, time shows some energetic activity in some space.

This theory shows us that time,space and energy are one entity.

The proof TC absorb energy is sorceresses' powers.
Sorceress' power is some kind of energy.
ThaT's why Ultimecia can absorb all soeceresses' powers when TC happens.But when TD happens all sorceresses's power back to the owners on their time and space.Ultimecia only has her powers when TC is over.

That/My explanation is true or false?


Then, by necessity, it is your perspective which has the problem.

No it was yours.



Anytime Ulti's intent is brought up, she is attempting to create a world where time is compressed.


She want to create something we dont even know.



No. No no no no no no no. Even if space and time continue infinitely, any GIVEN chunk of time is FINITE.

No matter what are you saying, time never stop;time is infinite.



And in one tiny quote, you reveal your utter ignorance of the meaning of compression. A black hole is compressed matter. What is a black hole? A supermass in an ultratiny volume.

You still cant imagine what I am saying?

[Ryushikaze]

Tell that to your god, if you have one.

Not that that's even a comeback, but how is having a god- which there is also no evidence for- relevant to the fact that there is no evidence for the existence of the metaphysical concept of hell as anything more than a concept? How does this rebut the fact that without said proof, the position defaults to the negative claim being correct, meaning that until any such time as you can present empirical evidence of your hell, I win the bet? Seriously, this should be rich.


Time Compression is a word same as shoothing stars,we know that is not star we see fall BUT meteor.Scan Ultimecia it said Absorbing Time and Space NOT compressing.

Step 1- Compress. Step 2- Consume. Step 3- Recast in own image. Step 4- Rule. Step 5- ????? Step 6- Profit.


This is the proof that TC is absorbing NOT compressing

No, this is evidence that Ultimecia is absorbing time as you scan her- which, as explained, would compress it anyways- not that she never compressed time, as she and everyone else said that she would.


So the meaning of Time Compression is Absorbing Time and Space NOT Compresseng Time and Space.

Six of one, half a dozen, given that she can compress and not absorb, but not absorb without compressing.


You call this wonderfull fun?
I call this a waste of time.

That, my good befuddle friend, is an actual matter of perspective. Y'know, unlike your argument's lack of correctness, which is a matter of rational thought.


Shut up.
You stated that time is finite but you dont even prove it.

"Viator said, trying to ignore the fact that he had not done such for infinite time, and had in fact failed to explain how time was infinite within an explicitly defined finite period"


This is your failure to understand it.
Ok let we try.

[QUOTE=Viator]When TC happens it's not only absorb time and space but also energy because according to wave theory, time, space, and energy, are the three media that are woven together, (quant, wave formation). Wave theory shows how each has its own properties and behaviors, but one can not exist without the others, more over, each proposes explanation for the others, time alone do not exist, time shows some energetic activity in some space.

This theory shows us that time,space and energy are one entity.

The proof TC absorb energy is sorceresses' powers.
Sorceress' power is some kind of energy.
ThaT's why Ultimecia can absorb all soeceresses' powers when TC happens.But when TD happens all sorceresses's power back to the owners on their time and space.Ultimecia only has her powers when TC is over.

That/My explanation is true or false?

Assumption- Wave theory is correct: In reality, wave theory is partially correct. Matter can exist without time. Time cannot exist sans matter.
Assumption- That Ultimecia wanted to access the sorceress's powers, and not the much more fulfilling whole of reality, which would be a much better power source, as it is being converted by SGB into power.
When time decompresses, it simply pours back out of her and back into its original positions, as it seeks its original status.


No it was yours.

My perspective is grounded in analysis of known variable. Your is based on unsupported additional variables. My perspective is by default better, as it adheres to the logical principle of parsimony.


She want to create something we dont even know.

No, her posessees, privy to her thoughts, state her intent is to compress time.


No matter what are you saying, time never stop;time is infinite.

Given finite number set Q, From Q-Alpha to Q-Omega is FINITE.
Given time length "Now", from Big Bang to now is finite.


You still cant imagine what I am saying?

No, I imagine it perfectly. It is blatantly incorrect. Compression is not destruction. Compression is reducing size while maintaining content. If I compress a file on my computer, that file is fully intact, it just takes less space on my HDD.


Let me sum up- You, Viator, think that the creators of Final Fantasy Eight decided to make the major goal of the villian for the better part of the game a giant red herring, based on your really specific interpretation of one piece of scan information which you claim absolutely overrides every other piece of evidence, DESPITE the fact that it can EASILY be explained into the EXISTING data without the need for additional variables as your postulate does. BY PARSIMONY, the working explanation with the fewest number of extraneous terms is the best. Your explanation is nothing BUT extraneous terms, and without any real empirical support, I might add.

[f f freak]

The work of compressing is almost the same with absorbing if you can imagine it.

No it isn't. Compress means to make something smaller. Absorb means to take something in. e.g. You absorb knowledge to learn something you don't compress it to learn it so that pretty much crushes what you said.

[Mirage]

So Viator, if you're so knowledgeable about the physics of FF8, could you please explain to me why FF8's south pole isn't covered in ice? and also, where exactly is it on the map?

[Viator]

Step 1- Compress. Step 2- Consume. Step 3- Recast in own image. Step 4- Rule. Step 5- ????? Step 6- Profit.

Wrong.
You will never know what is her up to.



No, this is evidence that Ultimecia is absorbing time as you scan her- which, as explained, would compress it anyways- not that she never compressed time, as she and everyone else said that she would.

I already said compressing and absorbing almost have the same meaning in TC Condition.
I see you still dont understand compressing and absorbing in this TC condition.



Six of one, half a dozen, given that she can compress and not absorb, but not absorb without compressing.

Ultimecia is the center of TC that means TC is absorbing NOT compressing.



"Viator said, trying to ignore the fact that he had not done such for infinite time, and had in fact failed to explain how time was infinite within an explicitly defined finite period"

If you cant prove time is finite like you said just shut up.



Assumption- Wave theory is correct: In reality, wave theory is partially correct. Matter can exist without time. Time cannot exist sans matter.
Assumption- That Ultimecia wanted to access the sorceress's powers, and not the much more fulfilling whole of reality, which would be a much better power source, as it is being converted by SGB into power.
When time decompresses, it simply pours back out of her and back into its original positions, as it seeks its original status.

Stop your babling and just answer that/My explanation is true or false?


No, her posessees, privy to her thoughts, state her intent is to compress time.

She only TRYING to compress time.
But then She realized that She cant compress time because time is infinite that's why She absorb it in Final Battle.



Given finite number set Q, From Q-Alpha to Q-Omega is FINITE.
Given time length "Now", from Big Bang to now is finite.

Like I said no matter what are you saying, time never stop;time is infinite.


No, I imagine it perfectly. It is blatantly incorrect. Compression is not destruction. Compression is reducing size while maintaining content. If I compress a file on my computer, that file is fully intact, it just takes less space on my HDD.

I am talking about time.


No it isn't. Compress means to make something smaller. Absorb means to take something in. e.g. You absorb knowledge to learn something you don't compress it to learn it so that pretty much crushes what you said.

If you compressing time that time will destroyed.
If you absorb time that time will become something like a single point.


So Viator, if you're so knowledgeable about the physics of FF8, could you please explain to me why FF8's south pole isn't covered in ice? and also, where exactly is it on the map?

Maybe that is the effect of Lunar Cry.



Time is something that passes uniformly without regard to whatever happens in the world.Time is a measure of the cycles of change within the world.

[Ryushikaze]

Wrong.
You will never know what is her up to.

From stage one- A sorceress trying to change the world by compressing time and taking power from all sorceresses.

What's that? She's trying to CHANGE the world.


I already said compressing and absorbing almost have the same meaning in TC Condition.
I see you still dont understand compressing and absorbing in this TC condition.

I see you still don't understand compressing and absorbing period.


Ultimecia is the center of TC that means TC is absorbing NOT compressing.

Viator, you're nothing but a broken record.


If you cant prove time is finite like you said just shut up.

You go first. You're the one claiming infinite time without proof, and claiming that time is infinite in a clearly defined finite period.


Stop your babling and just answer that/My explanation is true or false?

Oh very much false. Though since you seem to consider any explanation babbling, I'll simply pull a you and repeat that you don't understand how you are wrong when asked to provide an explanation.


She only TRYING to compress time.
But then She realized that She cant compress time because time is infinite that's why She absorb it in Final Battle.

Again, you are acting like absorbtion is a change of tactic, rather than step two of her plan to change the world.


Like I said no matter what are you saying, time never stop;time is infinite.

Congratulations, you have proven yourself, beyond a doubt, to either be irrational, or not paying any attention to what I write, possibly both.


I am talking about time.

Compression is compression regardless of what is being compressed.


If you compressing time that time will destroyed.
If you absorb time that time will become something like a single point.

Put the two together- absorbing time destroys it.


Time is something that passes uniformly without regard to whatever happens in the world.Time is a measure of the cycles of change within the world.

Slow. Stop. Haste. Time compression itself. All ways of altering the 'uniform' flow of time in FF8.

[Viator]

From stage one- A sorceress trying to change the world by compressing time and taking power from all sorceresses.

What's that? She's trying to CHANGE the world.

Exactly She only trying.


I see you still don't understand compressing and absorbing period.

I am afraid it was you.



Ultimecia is the center of TC that means TC is absorbing NOT compressing.

Viator, you're nothing but a broken record.

You knew that Ultimecia absorbing time so stop talking about compressing thing.
You better judge yourself and see if you can honest to yourself.


You go first. You're the one claiming infinite time without proof, and claiming that time is infinite in a clearly defined finite period.

I know you cant prove time is finite because time never stop that means time is infinite.Because you cant prove it, just shut up.


Oh very much false. Though since you seem to consider any explanation babbling, I'll simply pull a you and repeat that you don't understand how you are wrong when asked to provide an explanation.

You said that/my explanation is false?
That means you dont understand anything about TC.


Again, you are acting like absorbtion is a change of tactic, rather than step two of her plan to change the world.

I dont care if you stil dont understand it.


Congratulations, you have proven yourself, beyond a doubt, to either be irrational, or not paying any attention to what I write, possibly both.

What you write (about time is finite) is nonsense.


Compression is compression regardless of what is being compressed.
Put the two together- absorbing time destroys it.

Compressing time will destroyed time itself because compressing time will make time become nothingness.

Time has many infinite time dimensions
The number of time dimensions is infinite. This means that you cannot count how many time dimensions as it goes on forever.
Time has intervals. This means that the time dimensions have intervals between each other. In other words, it is the time difference between each time dimension. But really, there isn’t any because the difference is so small, a time dimension could equal that difference which again has interval difference that just goes on for infinity but gets smaller in difference each time.
Time force relies on itself to keep it going. This means that every time dimension there are, they are all needed to rely on each other to keep time itself going. If this is true, then time is infinite which is true and so this is true.
If time relies on itself to be infinite, then that must mean there is a loop of time.
Time is always everywhere. Wherever anything is, there will always be time.
If time exists anywhere, then in a black hole where they say there is no time, there has to be time, or everything is nothing. It only slows it down so much it hardly moves but still does move.
Time is something that passes uniformly without regard to whatever happens in the world.Time is a measure of the cycles of change within the world.
Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.

[Ryushikaze]

Exactly She only trying.

Concession accepted. We DO know Ulti's motives, and that motive is to change the world. A tip: When attempting to argue, it helps not to agree with your oppponent's position. It also helps to be correct.


I am afraid it was you.

Viaparrot strikes again! EXPLAIN HOW.


You knew that Ultimecia absorbing time so stop talking about compressing thing.

Why? No one is denying there is an act of absorption involved. You, on the other hand, are the only one who thinks that it is somehow a change in tactic after a critical oversight, rather than step two in the master plan.


You better judge yourself and see if you can honest to yourself.

I find myself not guilty.


I know you cant prove time is finite because time never stop that means time is infinite.Because you cant prove it, just shut up.

In massive enough singularities, time stops. In the universal singularity that the universe may become, time stops. In a heat death universe, time stops as EVERYTHING stops.


You said that/my explanation is false?
That means you dont understand anything about TC.

Or maybe it means that your explanation is bunkum.


I dont care if you stil dont understand it.

And I don't care how many f'in times you repeat that, it doesn't make your position any more true, any more parsimonious, or any less asinine.


What you write (about time is finite) is nonsense.

Given ANY explicitly finite set, no value within that finite set is infinite.


Compressing time will destroyed time itself because compressing time will make time become nothingness.

Prove it.


Time has many infinite time dimensions
The number of time dimensions is infinite. This means that you cannot count how many time dimensions as it goes on forever.
Time has intervals. This means that the time dimensions have intervals between each other. In other words, it is the time difference between each time dimension. But really, there isn’t any because the difference is so small, a time dimension could equal that difference which again has interval difference that just goes on for infinity but gets smaller in difference each time.

I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT. I just had to wait for you to hang yourself. Your argument IS based on the dichotomy paradox. It's BUNKUM.


Time force relies on itself to keep it going. This means that every time dimension there are, they are all needed to rely on each other to keep time itself going. If this is true, then time is infinite which is true and so this is true.

Not only is your premise totally unfounded, but you've got your laws of causation totally backwards.
Addendum: AND your logic is circular. Backwards AND circular. Impressive. Wrong, but impressive.


If time relies on itself to be infinite, then that must mean there is a loop of time.

Prove time A: relies upon itself B: is infinite. Then C: Reconcile time loop with infinite time. Loops are connected to themselves, connecting beginning and end to keep circling. However, this does not make an infinite amount of time. It makes recycled time.


Time is always everywhere. Wherever anything is, there will always be time.

Except in singularities.


If time exists anywhere, then in a black hole where they say there is no time, there has to be time, or everything is nothing. It only slows it down so much it hardly moves but still does move.

IF. Key word IF. You cannot base a conclusion on an unsupported premise.


Time is something that passes uniformly without regard to whatever happens in the world.Time is a measure of the cycles of change within the world.

Except time does NOT pass uniformly without regards to the world, even in our reality.


Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.

A temporal singularity. And what is a singularity? A massive locale of compressed matter, and in this case, time.

The thing about your postulate is that- despite your claim that compression of time destroys time- your end result is that very thing you said did not exist, namely, singular, compressed time.


And in the future, stop trying to use hypotheticals like they're absolutes.

[DK]

Ryushikaze just owned you, Viator. Just shut up and read it over and over until you understand.

[f f freak]

Ha Viator got owned. LOL!!!!!

[G SpOtZ]

You guys are being a bit rough on Viator, don't ya think? I mean, he's ALWAYS right. You guys should give him more credit than that... because, you know, game creators are wrong about their games they created.


\`,

[f f freak]

Yes I suppose you are right. He is right about everything. All hail Viator.

[Zeromus_X]

Is it finally over?

[Viator]

Concession accepted. We DO know Ulti's motives, and that motive is to change the world. A tip: When attempting to argue, it helps not to agree with your oppponent's position. It also helps to be correct.

She only trying to compressing time but She realised She cant that's why She absorb it in that Final Battle.


Viaparrot strikes again! EXPLAIN HOW.

I think I dont need to explain it again even I explain it to you again you still dont understand so why bother.


Why? No one is denying there is an act of absorption involved. You, on the other hand, are the only one who thinks that it is somehow a change in tactic after a critical oversight, rather than step two in the master plan.

I never think like that.


I find myself not guilty.

See you lied to yourself.
Everyone is guilty.


In massive enough singularities, time stops. In the universal singularity that the universe may become, time stops. In a heat death universe, time stops as EVERYTHING stops.

As long as there's something in the universe time will never stop.


Or maybe it means that your explanation is bunkum.

That/My explanation is true.You just dont understand it.


Given ANY explicitly finite set, no value within that finite set is infinite.

Time is not finite, time will never stop.



Prove it.

I dont need to prove it because that's the way it is whether you accept it or not.



I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT. I just had to wait for you to hang yourself. Your argument IS based on the dichotomy paradox. It's BUNKUM.

You better ask your physics teacher or something like that if you still dont understand.


Not only is your premise totally unfounded, but you've got your laws of causation totally backwards.
Addendum: AND your logic is circular. Backwards AND circular. Impressive. Wrong, but impressive.

Time force relies on itself to keep it going. This means that every time dimension there are, they are all needed to rely on each other to keep time itself going. If this is true, then time is infinite which is true and so this is true.That is the characteristic of time.



Prove time A: relies upon itself B: is infinite. Then C: Reconcile time loop with infinite time. Loops are connected to themselves, connecting beginning and end to keep circling. However, this does not make an infinite amount of time. It makes recycled time.

It would better if you ask your physics teacher if you have one because you always ignore My argument.


Except in singularities.


Not really.
Time exist everwhere.


IF. Key word IF. You cannot base a conclusion on an unsupported premise.

Well the truth is time EXIST everywhere.



Except time does NOT pass uniformly without regards to the world, even in our reality.

Time DOES pass uniformly without regards to whatever happens in the world


The thing about your postulate is that- despite your claim that compression of time destroys time- your end result is that very thing you said did not exist, namely, singular, compressed time.

Compressed time dont exist because time is infinite if that exist time will become timeless.

Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.

This New Demension of Time will keep contain All Time (past,present,future and whatnot) because time is infinite the process of absorbing time will go on forever, that's why there's 2 Ultimecias, The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time to make The New Dimension of Time and The Second Ultimecia Ultimecia will/can reign in That New Dimension of Time.

[Zeromus_X]

...I guess not. :eep: :cat:

[Ryushikaze]

She only trying to compressing time but She realised She cant that's why She absorb it in that Final Battle.

Please, good sir, point us to where she states that her prior plan is in the crapper. What's that? You cannot? You're insisting that it is a change of plan without evidence to support this claim?

I'll answer for you. You are.


I think I dont need to explain it again even I explain it to you again you still dont understand so why bother.

Then you concede the point. Thank you.


I never think like that.

So you deny ever making the claim that Ultimecia changed tactics?
That could make continued conversation either incredibly easy or difficult.


See you lied to yourself.
Everyone is guilty.

Y'know, I could try responding to this in a falsely injured tone, but humor goes totally over your head, so I'll respond thusly.
"Guilty of what, and where is your evidence?"

And while I'm rather hard to offend, in the future, try not to call people liars without evidence thereof.


As long as there's something in the universe time will never stop.

So you claim. Burdern of proof is now on you to support this position.


That/My explanation is true.You just dont understand it.

No, your explanation is bullhonky and you're too dogmatic to realize that.


Time is not finite, time will never stop.

Red herring. Here let me be more specific. If I have ONE HOUR of Time, I have a FINITE amount of time. Big Bang to NOW is ALSO a finite amount of time.


I dont need to prove it because that's the way it is whether you accept it or not.

Concession accepted.


You better ask your physics teacher or something like that if you still dont understand.

And you should look up the dichotomy paradox and understand why your argument, which is based off of it whether or not you realize it, is flawed.


Time force relies on itself to keep it going. This means that every time dimension there are, they are all needed to rely on each other to keep time itself going. If this is true, then time is infinite which is true and so this is true.That is the characteristic of time.

And what does he do when accused of committing numerous logical fallacies? Repeat those self same fallacious arguments without even ATTEMPTING to defend their logic.


It would better if you ask your physics teacher if you have one because you always ignore My argument.

You say that like you've ever actually listened to mine.
Of course, this repetition to ask a physics teacher tells me we're straying into appeal to authority territory here. Though since you brought your god into the argument for no practical purpose, that really comes as no shock.


Not really.
Time exist everwhere.

Well the truth is time EXIST everywhere.

Time DOES pass uniformly without regards to whatever happens in the world[/QUOTE]

Repeat after me- EXCEPT IN A SINGULARITY, WHERE THE TYPICAL RULES OF SPACE AND TIME DO NOT APPLY.


Compressed time dont exist because time is infinite if that exist time will become timeless.


Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.

Compressed, as it were, into a singular point. How about that.


This New Demension of Time will keep contain All Time (past,present,future and whatnot) because time is infinite the process of absorbing time will go on forever, that's why there's 2 Ultimecias, The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time to make The New Dimension of Time and The Second Ultimecia Ultimecia will/can reign in That New Dimension of Time.

You DO know that the secondary Ulti is the input side, right?
Besides, this violates SO many types of parsimony it's... actually kinda funny.

So, yeah. You basically wind up in the same place as regular Time compression, only you require a lot more terms to get there, most of which are completely and utterly unsupported. Anywhere.

[Viator]

Please, good sir, point us to where she states that her prior plan is in the crapper. What's that? You cannot? You're insisting that it is a change of plan without evidence to support this claim?So you deny ever making the claim that Ultimecia changed tactics?
That could make continued conversation either incredibly easy or difficult.

TC is Magic.Ultimecia really wants to compress time even She realized Time is infinite because She really wants to compress time that's why She called that Magic Time Compression.
The Fact is that Macig actually absorbing time, simple as that.



Then you concede the point. Thank you.

Just read My previous posts in another manner or perspective maybe you can understand it.



Y'know, I could try responding to this in a falsely injured tone, but humor goes totally over your head, so I'll respond thusly.
"Guilty of what, and where is your evidence?"

And while I'm rather hard to offend, in the future, try not to call people liars without evidence thereof.

You are unbelieveable you cant even realized that you are guilty in something.


So you claim. Burdern of proof is now on you to support this position.

I dont need to prove it because this life prove it itself.


No, your explanation is bullhonky and you're too dogmatic to realize that.

See like I said you dont understand anything about TC, you cant even realized that/My explanation is true.



Red herring. Here let me be more specific. If I have ONE HOUR of Time, I have a FINITE amount of time. Big Bang to NOW is ALSO a finite amount of time.

Unfortunately no matter what you said time will never stop.


And you should look up the dichotomy paradox and understand why your argument, which is based off of it whether or not you realize it, is flawed.

If we are talking about time we will never have true definition of Time that's why no matter how many arguments exist today the argument always flawed.Even the argument is flawed but make sense.


You say that like you've ever actually listened to mine.
Of course, this repetition to ask a physics teacher tells me we're straying into appeal to authority territory here. Though since you brought your god into the argument for no practical purpose, that really comes as no shock.

I never brought god



Repeat after me- EXCEPT IN A SINGULARITY, WHERE THE TYPICAL RULES OF SPACE AND TIME DO NOT APPLY.

Singularity you are talking about never exist.


Compressed, as it were, into a singular point. How about that.

You cant compress time into singular point because time is infinite (cant you realized that).
You can absorbing time into a singular point even time is infinite.
The process will go on forever because time is infinite.


You DO know that the secondary Ulti is the input side, right?
Besides, this violates SO many types of parsimony it's... actually kinda funny

Well just read My thread Rev of the Truth you will find more detail about this Secondary Ultimecia.

I think this conversation will go on forever like this until you realized what time it is.

[Ryushikaze]

TC is Magic.Ultimecia really wants to compress time even She realized Time is infinite because She really wants to compress time that's why She called that Magic Time Compression.
The Fact is that Macig actually absorbing time, simple as that.

Simpler, actually. The magic is called COMPRESSION, because that's what it does. The absorption happens because she's turning it into energy to begin step 3, recast reality.


Just read My previous posts in another manner or perspective maybe you can understand it.

CONCESSION ACCEPTED. THANK YOU.

To further make this clear, any smegging time you tell me to look at your previous posts in another manner, or in any way, shape or smegging form imply that your crackpot delusion is valid and the only thing that keeps everyone else in the world, including the makers of the game itself from recognizing it is THEIR fault, INSTEAD of endeavouring to- Idunno- make the explanation comprehensible, I WILL treat it as a concession, and I encourage everyone else to do it too.


You are unbelieveable you cant even realized that you are guilty in something.

So what am I guilty of, o he who presumes guilt without proof?


I dont need to prove it because this life prove it itself.

I am going to parrot myself for a moment to highlight that you have failed to actually support this claim beyond a handwave and an insistence. Here goes. Ya ready for it?
"So you claim. Burdern of proof is now on you to support this position."


See like I said you dont understand anything about TC, you cant even realized that/My explanation is true.

What's that? Another insistence that the failure is with someone other than yourself, despite massive evidence to the contrary? I could almost set my watch by this.

And for what little future reference there need be, it is redundant to do the that/my thing. We aren't idiots. We know it's your little pet theory.

We also know it's not true.


Unfortunately no matter what you said time will never stop.

Y'know, I've had it up to here with your red herrings, strawmans, and ad hominems. Stop them. NOW. For someone who was being pissy about personal attacks, you commit a damn /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gifload of them.
Back on what passes for a topic, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO. Nevermind that there's a damn good chance it will- If it turns out the total molage of the universe exceeds a certain amount, CRUNCH CRUNCH universal singularity, time stops- A FINITE STRETCH IS A FINITE STRETCH, AND NEITHER CYCLICAL LOOPING NOR POINTLESS NEVERENDING REDUCTION OF MEASUREMENT WILL CHANGE THIS.


If we are talking about time we will never have true definition of Time that's why no matter how many arguments exist today the argument always flawed.Even the argument is flawed but make sense.

Whee! Failure to address the fact that your entire argument is based on a logical paradox that is disproved simply by the movement of space and time!


I never brought god



If I am not FE you go to hell Bahamut If I am FE I go to hell, take this bet?


Tell that to your god, if you have one.

Twice within the space of a page, you bring up god- and hell, which is close enough for this point since it's damn hard to find the one seperate from some form of the other- out of nowhere. In my experience, people who do that have shown themselves to be exceedingly prone to using appeals to authority in their arguments.


Singularity you are talking about never exist.

Really now? And what, pray tell, was the pre-universe- though technically, such a concept is rather moot, since before the big bang there was no time- then? A pretzel?


You cant compress time into singular point because time is infinite (cant you realized that).
You can absorbing time into a singular point even time is infinite.
The process will go on forever because time is infinite.

::breaks out the sock puppet:: Hi, Viator! I'm gonna make this REEEEAAAALL simple! Singular point of All = Singularity= Compressed by definition! YAAYYYYYY!


Well just read My thread Rev of the Truth you will find more detail about this Secondary Ultimecia.

Concession accepted, you parsimony violating butternugget. I read it. It violated parsimony like a power drill violates a roll of toilet paper.


I think this conversation will go on forever like this until you realized what time it is.

It would help if you learned what english grammar was.
It would also help if YOU SUPPORTED YOUR SMEGGING ARGUMENTS INSTEAD OF DOGMATICALLY INSISTING THEY WERE SO, SANS LOGICAL OR EMPIRICAL SUPPORT!

Allow me to tell you, straight up, that you are sounding, and acting, like a crazed, delusional, conspiracy nut. Step back. Look into other viewpoints. Do some research on what the makers of the game have stated regarding their own material.
Think critically. Not dogmatically.


Edit: Smegging typos.

[G SpOtZ]

I didn't read Ryushi's whole post, but I don't have to, because I got a tingly feeling inside. The feeling that says, "Viator loses again."

[Viator]

Simpler, actually. The magic is called COMPRESSION, because that's what it does. The absorption happens because she's turning it into energy to begin step 3, recast reality.

The Magic actually absorbing if not how can Ultimecia absorbing time.


Really now? And what, pray tell, was the pre-universe- though technically, such a concept is rather moot, since before the big bang there was no time- then? A pretzel?

If there's no time before big bang how can big bang happens.

I think I dont need to much talk with you, you cant even realized what you guilty of.
It just waste of time talking with someone like you.

[Sir Bahamut]

I didn't read Ryushi's whole post, but I don't have to, because I got a tingly feeling inside. The feeling that says, "Viator loses again."

Man, Viator has always been losing, and would have even if Ryu hadn't been so unbelievably patient as to bother coming with serious responses to him. It's always been clear that Viator's theories are ludicrous and completely pointless to discuss.

Still, it's entertaining seeing Ryu own him so persistently anyway :D

[Christmas]

We should read the whole thread over and over again till we understand what this 11 pages of STUFFS is all about. :bigsmile:

[DK]

I think I dont need to much talk with you, you cant even realized what you guilty of.
It just waste of time talking with someone like you.

Hello Pot, meet Kettle.

[f f freak]

The Magic actually absorbing if not how can Ultimecia absorbing time

She isn't trying to absorb time she is trying to compress it. That was what the whole fight with ultimecia was about. Squall and co. found out Ultimecia was trying to compress time and decided to go play hero and kicked the absolute crap out of her. The magic was COMPRESSING. Unless of course every single piece of evidence that pointed that out was lying which for some reason I don't think that is the case here.


Man, Viator has always been losing

Possibly the most true thing I have ever seen. That should be carved in stone.

[G SpOtZ]

Unless of course every single piece of evidence that pointed that out was lying which for some reason I don't think that is the case here.
You shouldn't give him more ideas like that, because now, he's gonna back up his whole theory on that.

Viator: "Teh gaeme is liar!"
Everybody sane: "Fine, contact Square and ask them yourself."
Viator: "I dun heff to aks Square coz they are wrongg!!"

[HowlingMonkey]

See like I said you dont understand anything about TC, you cant even realized my explanation is true.

I think what we have here is a distinct lack of understanding on what truth is. Truth is not a matter of perspective. Truth is not a matter of intelligent comprehension. Truth is sheer hard fact. For example, this is a Final Fantasy website. That's truth. It's clearly evident that this is a FF website, and anyone with any logical capabilities can see that this a FF website. If people with logical capabilities cannot see what your explanation as truth, then it is impossible that it is truth.

So what is it? Is your explanation a theory? It could be. Theories are not truths. By definition, a theory can never be proved true. Theories are not evident to anyone with logical capabilities. Instead, theories stand on showing a rational explanation that backs up the theory. If that explanation makes logical sense, it is possible people will accept the theory. But theories require evidence, something you regularly fail to provide. More importantly, theories must not have any contradictory evidence, as one observation that does not fit the theory renders the whole theory void.

Now, in this particular instance, we are looking at a theory about a computer game set in a fantasy world. Hence, there are two main sources of evidence we can use. The game itself, from which we can take observations by the characters within about the FFVIII world, and the game creators, who are essentially the gods of the FFVIII world and thus the final judgment on any theories put forward. Using this guideline, there are so many pieces of contradictory evidence that your theory is found unacceptable by most logical people.

So what is this? It's an idea. It's fiction. It's quite imaginative fiction and your creativity must certainly be praised. But it's not truth and it's not theoretical. You have quite a creative mind, seems like you just need to realise what it's good at.


We should read the whole thread over and over again till we understand what this 11 pages of STUFFS is all about.

I'm fairly sure this thread is a dire warning to never take ourselves and our obsessions too seriously.

[f f freak]

Unless of course every single piece of evidence that pointed that out was lying which for some reason I don't think that is the case here.


You shouldn't give him more ideas like that, because now, he's gonna back up his whole theory on that.

Viator: "Teh gaeme is liar!"
Everybody sane: "Fine, contact Square and ask them yourself."
Viator: "I dun heff to aks Square coz they are wrongg!!"


OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE!!!!!!!

[Ryushikaze]

The Magic actually absorbing if not how can Ultimecia absorbing time.

By transforming her body to do so, and creating a slave body with which to convert time and space into power. Y'know, like her scan info actually reveals.


If there's no time before big bang how can big bang happens.

The first thing happened.


I think I dont need to much talk with you, you cant even realized what you guilty of.
It just waste of time talking with someone like you.

Kyono already dealt with this, but I'm curious, what am I guilty of, and where is your evidence?

Oh, and concession accepted on all unaddressed points

[Viator]

She isn't trying to absorb time she is trying to compress it.

That's right She only T-R-Y-I-N-G to compress time but She cant that's why She absorbing time in Final Battle.
If you still cant understand this forget it.



Truth is not a matter of perspective. Truth is not a matter of intelligent comprehension. Truth is sheer hard fact.

Truth is something true whether you believe it or not.


You have quite a creative mind, seems like you just need to realise what it's good at.

I dont have anything...



The first thing happened.

Before big bag happens there's already time if not big bang will never happen.If you still cant understand this you'd better...



what am I guilty of, and where is your evidence?

Everyday people make a mistake that mistake make people guilty.
Even priest will say they are guilty.

[G SpOtZ]

You have quite a creative mind, seems like you just need to realise what it's good at.

I dont have anything...
Wins. Oh, Viator, you lose, but this post... oh, it wins SO bad.

[Fonzie]

You couldn't argue your way out of a paper-bag dude.

[Ryushikaze]

That's right She only T-R-Y-I-N-G to compress time but She cant that's why She absorbing time in Final Battle.
If you still cant understand this forget it.

She succeeds in compression. THAT is why she absorbs it.


Truth is something true whether you believe it or not.

And in one swift blow, Viator totally invalidates any argument he defended with 'perspective'


I dont have anything...

Yeah, everyone's taken a dig at this already.


Before big bag happens there's already time if not big bang will never happen.If you still cant understand this you'd better...

Time is a measure of change. 'Before' the BB, no change occurred. In the event of a crunch, time will stop, until such a time as another bang occurs, in which case it will start again. The trick to everything here is, Time is not a 'thing', it's a concept.


Everyday people make a mistake that mistake make people guilty. Even priest will say they are guilty.

Guilt by mistake? Interesting philosophy. What are you insisting that everyone is guilty of then?
And 'priests' is how you turn that word into the plural.

[Big D]

Oh goodness, this thread is a monstrosity... I can't be bothered to read it all so I'll just jump in here.

Anyway.

Time is neither finite nor inflexible. Neither is space.

Ultimecia's goal is to compress time, absorbing the power of all sorceresses throughout history, and then absorbing and enslaving all existence. We know this from dialogue and information within the game.

Relativity proves that time is flexible. As velocity increases, time slows down. Atomic clocks placed in orbit of the Earth eventually lose synch with clocks on the planet's surface, proving the effect of velocity on the passage of time. A fellow named Einstein had a few words to say about this, too - apparently he was quite a bright chap.

Time is not an absolute, unchanging universal constant. Neither is space. Gravity distorts the structure of space (actually, gravity IS a distortion, but this is kind of extraneous here, I'm just illustrating). It's hard for a human mind to envisage the univese before the existence of time, since it's integral to our perception of the universe. Just as most people have difficulty visualising a universe of more or less than three physical dimensions. However, just because a human mind has trouble with a concept, does not mean it is an impossibility. We depend on events happening sequentially, with the passage of time and the phenomenon of causality linking an infinity of separate moments into a coherent whole. It's tough to imagine time ceasing to exist, since our own existence depends on time.

Time is one aspect of the universe we live in, but it's an aspect that is not absolute and universal. Theoretical analysis, and real-world experiments have demonstrated this. Basic human technology can alter the passage of time, by the exceedingly simple means of making an object move fast.

So it's quite reasonable for a fantasy video game to have a plot involving the compression of time via magic. Time travel has existed in fiction for centuries, and time compression is only a few steps more outlandish.

[Viator]

TC is Magic.Ultimecia really wants to compress time even She realized Time is infinite because She really wants to compress time that's why She called that Magic, Time Compression Magic.
Scan Ultimecia it said Absorbing Time and Space NOT compressing.
This is the proof that TC is absorbing NOT compressing.
The Fact is this Magic actually absorbing time, simple as that.
If you cant comprehend it forget it.

Time is one of the world's deepest mystery.No one can say exactly what it is. time has primarily been perceived as a virtual entity.Yet, the ability to measure time makes our way of life possible.Most human activities involve groups of people acting together in the same place at the same time.People could not do this if they did not measure time in the same way.

One way of thinking about time is a world without time.This timeless world would be at a standstill.But if some kind of change took place, that timeless world would be different "now" than it was "before".The period-no matter how brief-between "before" and "now" indicates that time must have passed.Thus,time and change are related because the passing of time depends on changes taking place.In real world,changes NEVER STOP HAPPENING,that means TIME IS INFINITE.Some changes seem to happen only once,like the falling of a particular leaf.Other changes happen over and over again,like the breaking of waves against the shore.

Any change that takes place again and again stands out from other changes.The rising and setting of the sun examples of such change.The first people to keep time probably counted such natural repeating events and used them to keep track of events that did not repeat.

Space always changing that means time will never stop;time is infinite.

Time has many infinite time dimensions
The number of time dimensions is infinite. This means that you cannot count how many time dimensions as it goes on forever.
Time has intervals. This means that the time dimensions have intervals between each other. In other words, it is the time difference between each time dimension. But really, there isn’t any because the difference is so small, a time dimension could equal that difference which again has interval difference that just goes on for infinity but gets smaller in difference each time.
Time force relies on itself to keep it going. This means that every time dimension there are, they are all needed to rely on each other to keep time itself going. If this is true, then time is infinite which is true and so this is true.
If time relies on itself to be infinite, then that must mean there is a loop of time.
Time is always everywhere. Wherever anything is, there will always be time.
If time exists anywhere, then in a black hole where they say there is no time, there has to be time, or everything is nothing. It only slows it down so much it hardly moves but still does move.
Time is something that passes uniformly without regard to whatever happens in the world.Time is a measure of the cycles of change within the world.
Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.
This New Demension of Time will keep contain All Time (past,present,future and whatnot) because time is infinite the process of absorbing time will go on forever, that's why there's 2 Ultimecias, The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time to make The New Dimension of Time and The Second Ultimecia Ultimecia will/can reign in That New Dimension of Time.




Relativity proves that time is flexible. As velocity increases, time slows down.

Time slows down the faster you move.
I wonder if this just a theory or for real.

[Ryushikaze]

TC is Magic.Ultimecia really wants to compress time even She realized Time is infinite because She really wants to compress time that's why She called that Magic, Time Compression Magic.
Scan Ultimecia it said Absorbing Time and Space NOT compressing.
This is the proof that TC is absorbing NOT compressing.
The Fact is this Magic actually absorbing time, simple as that.
If you cant comprehend it forget it.

Untrue. The scan information said absolutely nothing regarding the compression of time. Nor did it say anything about the magic of time compression. It said that Ultimecia HERSELF had transformed in order to absorb space and time.


Time is one of the world's deepest mystery.No one can say exactly what it is. time has primarily been perceived as a virtual entity.Yet, the ability to measure time makes our way of life possible.Most human activities involve groups of people acting together in the same place at the same time.People could not do this if they did not measure time in the same way.

And yet we got along for thousands of years without any concept of time beyond certain events.


One way of thinking about time is a world without time.This timeless world would be at a standstill.But if some kind of change took place, that timeless world would be different "now" than it was "before".The period-no matter how brief-between "before" and "now" indicates that time must have passed.Thus,time and change are related because the passing of time depends on changes taking place.In real world,changes NEVER STOP HAPPENING,that means TIME IS INFINITE.Some changes seem to happen only once,like the falling of a particular leaf.Other changes happen over and over again,like the breaking of waves against the shore.

Again, you regurgitate the dichotomy paradox. Just because you can theoretically break a length of time down into an infinite amoung of infinitely minute measurements, it does not mean that that length is itself infinite. It may sound silly to you, but we can do the same with a length of matter, such as a meter, and that meter is itself still finite.


A lot of repetitive, unsubstantiated BS went here


If time relies on itself to be infinite, then that must mean there is a loop of time.

Which means it is finite. A mobius strip may 'go on forever', but it is still a finite strip.

Time is always everywhere. Wherever anything is, there will always be time.

If time exists anywhere, then in a black hole where they say there is no time, there has to be time, or everything is nothing. It only slows it down so much it hardly moves but still does move.

If cannot be used to prove is. The 'then' concluded from an 'if' is only true if the 'if' is true. If it isn't, then the 'then' is meaningless.


Time is something that passes uniformly without regard to whatever happens in the world.Time is a measure of the cycles of change within the world.

You've been told repeatedly that this is not the case. Repeating this claim endlessly will not make it true.


Time slows down the faster you move.
I wonder if this just a theory or for real.

This aspect of relativitivty has been observed, so even if the theory fails and is replaced, this aspect will remain verified.

If it seems like I didn't really respond to much of this post, it's because there was little to respond to that hasn't been said before.

[Viator]

Ultimecia absorbing time because TC is absorbing not compressing.

TC is Magic.Ultimecia really wants to compress time even She realized Time is infinite because She really wants to compress time that's why She called that Magic, Time Compression Magic.
Scan Ultimecia it said Absorbing Time and Space NOT compressing.
This is the proof that TC is absorbing NOT compressing.
The Fact is this Magic actually absorbing time, simple as that.
If you cant comprehend it forget it.

You misunderstand the meaning of TC and Ultimecia's Motives.

[Ryushikaze]

So, yeah. Unless you come up with a better comeback than THAT, concession accepted on Ulti's motives and Time Compression's 'meaning', as if it had one more than the obvious.

[Big D]

I, for one, don't think Ultimecia was going to compress all of time, only a sizeable chunk in the area surrounding her world. Enough to give her basically absolute power, anyway, especially in the eyes of the world's inhabitants. Time has many infinite time dimensions
The number of time dimensions is infinite. This means that you cannot count how many time dimensions as it goes on forever.The number of dimensions has no relevance to the size of something. A one-dimensional form - a line - could, in theory, be infinitely long. There's some speculation that time itself IS just a single dimension, much like height and the other physical dimensions.

Ultimecia's plan, it seems, was to compress the matter and energy from across the ages into a single focal point - herself. The first stages of that process enabled Squall and others to cross into her time, as the various eras became intermingled and less separated from one another. Time slows down the faster you move.
I wonder if this just a theory or for real.Since this actually happens in the real world, and can be observed through existing technolohy, then yes - it's real. It's a fundamental factor in understanding the malleability of space and time.

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, Ultimecias final form is apparently absorbing "all existence", which may indicate that she wasn't merely settling with just a sizeable chunk, as it were. I think that Ultimecia definitely wished to compress all of time; it would fit in with her greedy, vengeful character much better. I can't really see her settling with anything but the entire space-time continuum.

[Viator]

Ryushikze you said before Big Bang there's no time.
If there's no time before Big Bang, Big Bang cannot happen because the process of Big Bang takes time.
That means there's already time before Big Bang.

I understand why you always said time is finite but you have to know one thing if time is finite time travel is impossible
Time Travel shows us that past,present and future exist at the same time.

Time travel - Parallel Universes - Infinite number of Universes.

If time travel is - even only in theory - possible, this than means that all times (past, present & future) of the Universe must exist simultaneously.

If time travel is - even only in theory - possible, this than means that all possible parallel states of the Universe must also exist, if only in order to avoid those so called 'time paradoxes'.

For example :

Past <------------- Present

Imagine you travel from the present to the past, that means present exist at the same time with the past.
You cannot travel back to the past if past does not exist..

Present ----------> Future

Imagine you travel from the present to the future, that means present and the future exist at the same time.
You cant go to the future if future does not exist.

Past,present and future exist at the same time that means time is infinite.

Time Travel is possible in FF8 that means time is infinite in FF8 World.


The number of dimensions has no relevance to the size of something. A one-dimensional form - a line - could, in theory, be infinitely long. There's some speculation that time itself IS just a single dimension, much like height and the other physical dimensions.

A Dimension does not need to be detected to exist. If we had no memory of the interval we label as "time," our existence in space/time would still occur.


I, for one, don't think Ultimecia was going to compress all of time, only a sizeable chunk in the area surrounding her world. Enough to give her basically absolute power, anyway, especially in the eyes of the world's inhabitants.

That's not true.



Ultimecia's plan, it seems, was to compress the matter and energy from across the ages into a single focal point - herself. The first stages of that process enabled Squall and others to cross into her time, as the various eras became intermingled and less separated from one another.

the reason why Squall and Co can go to Ultimecia's time was because of ellone's Powers.
Ultimecia's plan was to make all of dimension of time exist together at the same time.



Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.
This New Demension of Time will keep contain All Time (past,present,future and whatnot) because time is infinite the process of absorbing time will go on forever, that's why there's 2 Ultimecias, The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time to make The New Dimension of Time and The Second Ultimecia Ultimecia will/can reign in That New
Dimension of Time.


Relativity proves that time is flexible. As velocity increases, time slows down. Atomic clocks placed in orbit of the Earth eventually lose synch with clocks on the planet's surface, proving the effect of velocity on the passage of time. A fellow named Einstein had a few words to say about this, too - apparently he was quite a bright chap.
Since this actually happens in the real world, and can be observed through existing technolohy, then yes - it's real. It's a fundamental factor in understanding the malleability of space and time.

That only proved by atomic clock not regular clock.



It's a fundamental factor in understanding the malleability of space and time.

Energy and Mass can make Time and Space become malleable.

[Sir Bahamut]

That only proved by atomic clock not regular clock.

...

[Ryushikaze]

Ryushikze you said before Big Bang there's no time.
If there's no time before Big Bang, Big Bang cannot happen because the process of Big Bang takes time.
That means there's already time before Big Bang.

No, time is a contained aspect of this universe. It began when the Big Bang happened.


I understand why you always said time is finite but you have to know one thing if time is finite time travel is impossible
Time Travel shows us that past,present and future exist at the same time.

Time travel - Parallel Universes - Infinite number of Universes.

The alternate universes interpretation of time travel does not hold in FF8.


If time travel is - even only in theory - possible, this than means that all times (past, present & future) of the Universe must exist simultaneously.

Not necessarily. Wormholes and Reverse time are also equally valid- read not really- methods of time travel as well. And wasn't this supposed to be Ulti's goal in your postulate anyways?


If time travel is - even only in theory - possible, this than means that all possible parallel states of the Universe must also exist, if only in order to avoid those so called 'time paradoxes'.


For example :
Past <------------- Present

Imagine you travel from the present to the past, that means present exist at the same time with the past.

No..... ::hand puppet:: HI VIATOR! Repeat after me! The past exists, in the past! YAYYYYY! That's why it's not called the present! YAYYYYY!


You cannot travel back to the past if past does not exist.

It exists. In the past.


Present ----------> Future

Imagine you travel from the present to the future, that means present and the future exist at the same time.
You cant go to the future if future does not exist.

::Sock puppet:: I'M IN THE FUTURE! YAY!!!!
But yeah. Otherwise, repeat above with 'future' and more intelligence insulting from the Sock Puppet.


Past,present and future exist at the same time that means time is infinite.

Follows not at all.


Time Travel is possible in FF8 that means time is infinite in FF8 World.

Only follows IF time travel works in the way you imagine. You have no support for it working as such, and there are numerous other, more parsimonious versions of time travel.


A Dimension does not need to be detected to exist. If we had no memory of the interval we label as "time," our existence in space/time would still occur.

No, but it does need to be detected in order for us to have any reason to think it exists.


That's not true.

EXPLAIN HOW, ya smeghead. How many times have I told you you can't simply say 'wrong' and expect it to fly?



Ultimecia's plan, it seems, was to compress the matter and energy from across the ages into a single focal point - herself. The first stages of that process enabled Squall and others to cross into her time, as the various eras became intermingled and less separated from one another.


the reason why Squall and Co can go to Ultimecia's time was because of ellone's Powers.

Evidence, si vous plait. Especially since no one else, period, in game, out of game, or the creators, thinks so.


Ultimecia's plan was to make all of dimension of time exist together at the same time.

But according to you, they already do.


That only proved by atomic clock not regular clock.

Ahhhhh.... Comedy gold. You do know Atomic clocks are the most precise clocks out there, yes? Arguing that it only happens because of the clock is silly, since they are noted for how difficult it is to throw them out of synch, based as they are on radioactive decay.

[DK]

Does anyone else think Viator shuts off his computer at night and bursts out laughing at the rib he's playing on us, and then carries on life as a normal human being? It's either that, or he's mental.

Also, he's been owned by Ryu so hard so many times, and there are extra points for the use of Smeghead. Red Dwarf <3

[Moon Rabbits]

The actual answer is that Ultimecia is God and transcends all time.

It doesn't say that in the game but I decided that because I am right and the game is not.

There, that's an arguement almost as silly as yours.

[Viator]

No, time is a contained aspect of this universe. It began when the Big Bang happened.

I see you still dont understand.
In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.
Time already exist before Big Bang if not Big Bang will never occur.



Not necessarily. Wormholes and Reverse time are also equally valid- read not really- methods of time travel as well. And wasn't this supposed to be Ulti's goal in your postulate anyways?

It's not like what you think.
New Dimension that will contain all Dimension of Time is not the same with past,present and future exist at the same time.


No..... ::hand puppet:: HI VIATOR! Repeat after me! The past exists, in the past! YAYYYYY! That's why it's not called the present! YAYYYYY!

If you already arrived to the past you dont call that past,past
but you call it your present.


It exists. In the past.

Past exist in the past shows that time is infinite.
Future exist in the future shows that time is infinite.


No, but it does need to be detected in order for us to have any reason to think it exists.

If we had no memory of the interval we label as "time," our existence in space/time would still occur.


EXPLAIN HOW, ya smeghead. How many times have I told you you can't simply say 'wrong' and expect it to fly?

I think Bahamut already explain it.

[Ryushikaze]

I see you still dont understand.
In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.
Time already exist before Big Bang if not Big Bang will never occur.

No... Time begins with the first change, IE: The big bang. The dimension of time begins with the BB.


It's not like what you think.
New Dimension that will contain all Dimension of Time is not the same with past,present and future exist at the same time.

1- concession accepted on wormholes and reverse time.
2- Explain how it is different, then. And do not give me a semantic filled response. Give me the practical difference.


If you already arrived to the past you dont call that past,past
but you call it your present.

Yes, because if one travels to the past, it is the effective 'now', but it is not the same as the 'now' you travelled from. Let's use less vague terms. If one travels from time coordinate 80 to time coordinate 40, time coordinate 40 is not the same time coordinate as 80.


Past exist in the past shows that time is infinite.
Future exist in the future shows that time is infinite.

Does not follow. Both can exist and still be finite. 1.3 meter exist before 1.5 meter and 1.7 exists after, but if it's only a two meter stretch, it's still finite.


If we had no memory of the interval we label as "time," our existence in space/time would still occur.

Yes, because change occurs. Without change within the universe, there is no such thing as time. 'Before' change, there is no such thing as 'time'.


I think Bahamut already explain it.

Irrelevant. YOU have to give an explanation.

And, as is becoming a trend, concession accepted on all unadressed points.

[Viator]

No... Time begins with the first change, IE: The big bang. The dimension of time begins with the BB.

Time is infinite meaning time has never started nor will it stop.
If it did have a starting point, at what time did it start? There must be time to start time if it had been started, and if time would stop then nothing will exist as there will be no time to keep everything there, and yes there still will be time if time had stopped so you can’t say time had a starting point or an end.
In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.
Time already exist before Big Bang if not Big Bang will never occur.


2- Explain how it is different, then. And do not give me a semantic filled response. Give me the practical difference.

Past,present and future exist AT THE SAME TIME is different with past,present and future exist TOGETHER.


Yes, because if one travels to the past, it is the effective 'now', but it is not the same as the 'now' you travelled from. Let's use less vague terms. If one travels from time coordinate 80 to time coordinate 40, time coordinate 40 is not the same time coordinate as 80.

Time travel is possible.
That means past,present and future exist at the same time.


Does not follow. Both can exist and still be finite. 1.3 meter exist before 1.5 meter and 1.7 exists after, but if it's only a two meter stretch, it's still finite.

Your example doesnt prove time is finite.

[Ryushikaze]

Time is infinite meaning time has never started nor will it stop.

A priori assumption.


If it did have a starting point, at what time did it start?

BIG BANG.


There must be time to start time if it had been started, and if time would stop then nothing will exist as there will be no time to keep everything there, and yes there still will be time if time had stopped so you can’t say time had a starting point or an end.

Existence is not reliant on time. Time is reliant on existence. 'Before' the BB, the concept of 'time' as we consider it was a non issue.


In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.
Time already exist before Big Bang if not Big Bang will never occur.

You keep saying this but fail to realize how it is contradictory.



Past,present and future exist AT THE SAME TIME is different with past,present and future exist TOGETHER.

For one, that doesn't explain how. For two, alternate dimensions of time is less parsimonious than linear time.


Time travel is possible.
That means past,present and future exist at the same time.

Again, I say, not necessarily, and not parsimonious.


Your example doesnt prove time is finite.

And none of your silly little explanations prove that time is infinite.

[Sir Bahamut]

Again, I say, not necessarily, and not parsimonious.

I hate to attempt defending Viator, but if Viator means that all of time exists 'simultaneously', then that IS quite parsimonous with the possibility of time travel. That is, the past and future must necessarily exist for timetravel to even be possible, hence although events may be temporally seperated, they can be said to exist "at the same time", or less confusingly, to exist simultaneously.

[Ryushikaze]

Well, if you're talking about all the time points existing along the same axis without being
used up, sure. But the way Viator explains his is more akin to the Sliders-esque numerous
parallel universes, which is a really wild claim.

[Viator]

Existence is not reliant on time. Time is reliant on existence.

Wrong, existance and time need each other to exist.



You keep saying this but fail to realize how it is contradictory


In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.

Actually that explanation comes from modern physics and cosmology.



For one, that doesn't explain how. For two, alternate dimensions of time is less parsimonious than linear time.

Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.
This New Demension of Time will keep contain All Time (past,present,future and whatnot) because time is infinite the process of absorbing time will go on forever, that's why there's 2 Ultimecias, The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time to make The New Dimension of Time and The Second Ultimecia Ultimecia will/can reign in That New
Dimension of Time.

I only try to give you a simple picture about what is this New Dimension of Time all about.
Of course that explanation not explain everything about this New Dimension of Time.



And none of your silly little explanations prove that time is infinite.

Actually I dont need to explain why time is infinite because in reality time is infinite.



I hate to attempt defending Viator

That explain a lot of things.

[Ryushikaze]

Wrong, existance and time need each other to exist.

Not really. Existence without change is still existing. Change cannot occur without an existence to change.


Actually that explanation comes from modern physics and cosmology.

That's not the part where the contradiction comes in. It is the conclusion you draw from that explanation.




-snip-

I only try to give you a simple picture about what is this New Dimension of Time all about.
Of course that explanation not explain everything about this New Dimension of Time.

Oh, so you admit it's a crappy explanation. And it is. Especially since it is in all ways functionally identical to time compression, except that you insist it goes on forever and that Ultimecia's two forms do something different than their scan info states.

By the by, I realize you keep trying to use the term 'dimension' equivocally. I suggest you don't. For one, it makes your already fuddled argument worse, and for two, it's bad debating.



Actually I dont need to explain why time is infinite because in reality time is infinite.

So you assume a priori. I will admit that there IS a chance that time is infinite, but seeing as nothing which is infinite can be shown to exist, the parsimonious assumption is that time, which is a function of the finite universe, is also finite.

[Viator]

Not really. Existence without change is still existing. Change cannot occur without an existence to change.

Existance need time to change.
Existance cannot change without time.


Oh, so you admit it's a crappy explanation. And it is. Especially since it is in all ways functionally identical to time compression, except that you insist it goes on forever and that Ultimecia's two forms do something different than their scan info states.

That is not crappy explanation but that is simple explanation about New Dimension of Time.


By the by, I realize you keep trying to use the term 'dimension' equivocally. I suggest you don't. For one, it makes your already fuddled argument worse, and for two, it's bad debating.

Using dimension term is the best way to explain time.

If space/time came into existence with Big Bang, how could the cosmos be of infinite volume?

It appears that universe is either infinite, containing an infinite number of finite systems, or, it is finite, containing a finite number of infinite systems...which seems much more difficult to grasp than infinity itself.

The universe is only finite in its infinite capacities

[Ryushikaze]

Existance need time to change.
Existance cannot change without time.

But it can exist without changing.


That is not crappy explanation but that is simple explanation about New Dimension of Time.

Your explanation requires more terms, arrives at the same result, and fails to fully explain itself. It is a terrible explanation.
Though to give you the benefit of the doubt, don't simplify. Explain it. FULLY.


Using dimension term is the best way to explain time.

Not when you use definitions interchangeably. And I agree, 'dimension' is a good way to explain time. But only as in '4th dimension' or 'W axis', not in the sense of parallel as you have been using.


If space/time came into existence with Big Bang, how could the cosmos be of infinite volume?

Who says that it is? Of course, the trick isn't the volume. It's the mass.


It appears that universe is either infinite, containing an infinite number of finite systems, or, it is finite, containing a finite number of infinite systems...which seems much more difficult to grasp than infinity itself.

Ad obfuscatum is not a good way to debate. Elaborate. There are several ways to interpret that chunk of vagueness, and I'd rather not waste time adressing them all.

And why do you assume 'finite number of infinite systems'. NOTHING infinite has ever been observed. Infinite suffers the burden of proof.


The universe is only finite in its infinite capacities

The. Universe. Is. Finite. Until. Proven. Otherwise. PERIOD.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

First I have to let everyone know that: No, I HAVE NOT read ALL the post in this thread. I only know that I was banned from this forum many times many years ago when I made my statements about this and other subjects...

If you ask me... Time Compression is this: The Everlasting Moment...

You want more details than that? PM me.

[Zeromus_X]

We've kinda figured out that TC is all past, present, and future 'compressed' into one moment, like was said in the game. Unfortunately, arguments can actually evolve into arguing about physics and the laws of space and time regarding a fictional plot element in a video game when it's just a spell.

[Viator]

Time is finite that means there's no future, there's only past and present/Now time.
You cant go to the future but only can go to the past because future not exist in finite time.

Time is infinite means past,present and future exist at the same time.
You can go to the future and go to the past.
Squall and Co can go to the future;to Ultimecia's Time.
Squall can go to the past. This prove that Time in FF8 World is infinite.
Because Time is infinite in FF8 World, The process of absorbing time,space and energy will go on forever, but it doesnt really matter because there's 2 Ultimecias.The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time,space and energy and The Second Ultimecia will reign in New Dimension of Time She created

If there's no time before Big Bang, Big Bang will never occur because The process of Big bang takes time to occur, that means time already exist before Big Bang.


But it can exist without changing.

Time still exist even in nothingness.
And of course there's no such thing as nothingness.



Your explanation requires more terms, arrives at the same result, and fails to fully explain itself. It is a terrible explanation.
Though to give you the benefit of the doubt, don't simplify. Explain it. FULLY.

I can only give the simple picture of that New Dimensionof Time Ultimecia created.
And of course NOBODY save Ultimecia can fully know/understand what is that New Dumension is all about.


Infinite suffers the burden of proof.

Infinite suffers the burden of Imagination.


The. Universe. Is. Finite. Until. Proven. Otherwise. PERIOD.

Black Holes exist that means Universe is not finite but infinite.


I STRONGLY recommend you to PERUSE My post no 1 again.

If this is My Last Post SO BE IT!
If not I will reply in another time...

[Qurange]

...Why, exactly, does time being finite mean that there is no future? 'Future' is just a descriptor for a time period 'ahead' of us in our chronologically attuned minds, and all that. In a fated world with finite time, 'future' and 'past' only have meaning depending on one's place in time.

[Sir Bahamut]

Good question. Here's a better one though; do you really expect Viator to come with a good answer?

[Qurange]

No, no, I don't. But it was nice to poke my head back into the thread.

[Ryushikaze]

Time is finite that means there's no future, there's only past and present/Now time. You cant go to the future but only can go to the past because future not exist in finite time.

So, your definiton- emphasis on your- of finite time means that there is no future. The actual definition of 'finite' does not preclude a future. The only thing finite implies is an eventual end.


Time is infinite means past,present and future exist at the same time.
You can go to the future and go to the past.

This is not impossible in a finite timespan. The only thing a finite timespan makes impossible is going beyond the start and endpoints.


Squall and Co can go to the future;to Ultimecia's Time.
Squall can go to the past. This prove that Time in FF8 World is infinite.
Because Time is infinite in FF8 World, The process of absorbing time,space and energy will go on forever, but it doesnt really matter because there's 2 Ultimecias.The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time,space and energy and The Second Ultimecia will reign in New Dimension of Time She created

You entire argument relies on the false dichotomy of either 'finite time/ no time travel' or 'infinite time/ allowance of time travel'. And it IS a false dichotomy, since you are twisting the definition of finite to suit your purposes.


If there's no time before Big Bang, Big Bang will never occur because The process of Big bang takes time to occur, that means time already exist before Big Bang.

No. When the Big Bang starts, so does time. We are still in the process of the Big Bang, after all.


Time still exist even in nothingness.
And of course there's no such thing as nothingness.

Time can exist in something which does not exist? Paradox much?



I can only give the simple picture of that New Dimensionof Time Ultimecia created.
And of course NOBODY save Ultimecia can fully know/understand what is that New Dumension is all about.

So you can't explain your supposedly superior postulate, cannot explain its functional difference from the original theory, and in the end, you claim it is unknowable, and in doing so, fall into one of the most bizarre appeals to ignorance I've seen in awhile. You fail on so many levels.


Infinite suffers the burden of Imagination.

It still suffers the burden of proof. Prove infinity exists. Do not rely on ontological BS to shore it up.


Black Holes exist that means Universe is not finite but infinite.

Explain how Black Holes- which are nothing more than dense, supermassive bodies in space- prove an infinite universe. I look forward to your failure of an explanation.


I STRONGLY recommend you to PERUSE My post no 1 again.

I strongly recommend you to peruse a dictionary and also an encyclopedia to understand the terms you are using and the concepts you are discussing.


If this is My Last Post SO BE IT!
If not I will reply in another time...

If this is your last post, then allow me to formally state that your concession is readily and gladly accepted.
Remember kids, if you run away, you definitely didn't win.

[licence]

What are you all talking about?

There was no Big Bang. God made everything :p

[Eiko Guy]

what if time travel was possible using cryogenic freezing and a remote scripted wave that will reactivate the time vessel


for example tom gets in his time machine and the machine goes to where in the past a radio wave will pass it and reactivate it now the only way they radiowave will reactivate it is if time works in a loop so he is there when the universe in a way restarts and the radio wave hits the time machine that has been sitting in space for eternity and reactivates there instant time travel only problem is time has to repeat it self for eternity

[Ryushikaze]

What are you all talking about?

There was no Big Bang. God made everything :p

Then what made god?

I'm fairly certain the quoted isn't being serious, but always remember three things, kid. Occam's Razor, the Principle of Parsimony, and the Burden of Proof. 'God' fails all three.

Faith is fine. Faith is not evidence.

[Shoden]

I think my head undergone the big bang from all this talk, it's pretty interesting still, I'll pop in once in a while to see the debate progress.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Alright, let's just throw out the 'physics'. Well, let's just set it aside for now... Like a slice of pie.... (hmmm... pie:tongue: )

The Sorceress is the equvilent of "The Anti-Christ" or "Demi-God" and the power has only evolved and strengthened with each generation. Now what could be the ultimate goal of the Ultimate Sorceress with the Ultimate Power?


You take all the time of the peak of that power's evolution and absorb it into yourself and snatch one moment in time and make it everlasting. Forever... Eternal. Say, your greatest moment in your life, your greatest and ultimate victory and that day NEVER NEVER ends.... That is what Time compression is: The everlasting moment...

1= Past
2= Present
3= Future
1.5= Actual present
1+2=3

3/2=1.5

In effect, Ultimecia is now safe from the never ending witch hunts because she remains in an everlasting moment of time and everyone else has moved on...

Get it? Listen to "Eyes On Me" and Ultimecia's last words. Then, if you can, watch the final scenes and maybe it'll clear things up.:love:

[Rocket Edge]

Alright, let's just throw out the 'physics'. Well, let's just set it aside for now... Like a slice of pie.... (hmmm... pie:tongue: )

The Sorceress is the equvilent of "The Anti-Christ" or "Demi-God" and the power has only evolved and strengthened with each generation. Now what could be the ultimate goal of the Ultimate Sorceress with the Ultimate Power?


You take all the time of the peak of that power's evolution and absorb it into yourself and snatch one moment in time and make it everlasting. Forever... Eternal. Say, your greatest moment in your life, your greatest and ultimate victory and that day NEVER NEVER ends.... That is what Time compression is: The everlasting moment...

1= Past
2= Present
3= Future
1.5= Actual present
1+2=3

3/2=1.5

In effect, Ultimecia is now safe from the never ending witch hunts because she remains in an everlasting moment of time and everyone else has moved on...

Get it? Listen to "Eyes On Me" and Ultimecia's last words. Then, if you can, watch the final scenes and maybe it'll clear things up.:love:
*Applauds*

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Please.... Illucidate for me.

So let me try to understand...

You're trying to theorize the actual result of Time Compression if it were to actually happen within our dimension?

And NOT, I now assume, understand the why and how of Time Compression and the why and how Ultimecia attempted it?

[Rocket Edge]

The Sorceress is the equvilent of "The Anti-Christ" or "Demi-God" and the power has only evolved and strengthened with each generation. Now what could be the ultimate goal of the Ultimate Sorceress with the Ultimate Power?


You take all the time of the peak of that power's evolution and absorb it into yourself and snatch one moment in time and make it everlasting. Forever... Eternal. Say, your greatest moment in your life, your greatest and ultimate victory and that day NEVER NEVER ends.... That is what Time compression is: The everlasting moment...

I believe what you said in these passages were very true. People always want to find why villians are so evil & what is there motive. You just gave an answer to it.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Don't take what I say as 'answers'... (They don't like that...), but rather as perspectives. Points of view.

[DK]

PAK, i've missed you. :D

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

PAK, i've missed you. :D
:eek: I... I was... 'missed'? (sniff):cry: I've never been missed before...


Diar-er.... Journal Entry: Dear God, Today...

[Zeromus_X]

"Zat is too bad. Let's see... There iz only
only one way to defeat Ultimecia. You must
kill her in ze future. There iz nothing we
can do unless we go to ze future. There is no
normal way to jump to ze future under normal
circumstances. But there iz still a way! It iz
because Sorceress Ultimecia plans to compress
time. Compressing time with magic... Vat good
will it do for ze sorceress to compress time?
There may be many reasons, but it doesn't
matter. Let's just figure out vat Ultimecia is
up to. In order for Ultimecia to exist in this
time, she must take over ze body of a sorceress
from ze present. But ze machine must have a
limit. Ultimecia probably needs to go back
further in time to achieve time compression.
Only Ellone can take her back further into ze
past. Zat iz why she iz desperately seeking
her. We must take advantage of Ellone's power.
There are 2 sorceresses in our time. Sorceress
Rinoa and Sorceress Adel. Of ze two, Adel has
not awakened yet. Once regeneration is
completed, neither Laguna nor I will be safe.
Sorceress Adel is probably in ze process of
awakening inside Lunatic Pandora. Ultimecia
will want to possess Adel, if Adel wakes up.
Zat vill be a horrible event. Adel iz a
horrible sorceress. If Adel's consciousness
wins over Ultimecia, Adel will first destroy
this era. So we must use Sorceress Rinoa to
inherit Ultimecia's powers. Zat's all for ze
mission briefing. First, go to Lunatic Pandora.
Ellone's probably being held captive inside, so
rescue her first. Then kill Sorceress Adel
before ze awakening process is completed. Now,
we're left with Rinoa as ze only sorceress of
this era. Then wait for Ultimecia to possess
Rinoa. When Ultimecia arrives, it's Ellone's
turn. Ellone will send Rinoa back to ze past
with Ultimecia. Ellone will have to send Rinoa
and Ultimecia inside another sorceress she
knows in the past. Edea or Adel... Zat's up to
Ellone. Once Ultimecia iz in ze past, she'll
use ze time compressoin magic. We'll see some
influence here. I don't know vat kind of
influence, but once Ellone feels it, she'll
cut Rinoa and Ultimecia off from ze past. Rinoa
will come back to this world. Ultimecia also
goes back to her own world. Vat would be left
is ze time compressed world. Past, present, and
future will all get mixed together. You will
keep moving through ze time compression toward
ze future. Once you're out of ze time
compression, zat will be Ultimecia's world.
It's all up to you after zat."

There. Time Compression is magic. Time Compression is all past, present, and future, mixed together. There. In the game. From the game's own script. No physics or theories or bull/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif. That's what Time Compression is. And it took me about a minute to go to the Gamefaqs game script and copy/paste this and add my comment without wasting around fourteen pages with arguing and making other people's heads hurt with bull/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif.






*sigh*, sorry, I'm done now. :cat:

[Viator]

I think I am still exist in this world... I dont know why..? Perhaps...


...Why, exactly, does time being finite mean that there is no future? 'Future' is just a descriptor for a time period 'ahead' of us in our chronologically attuned minds, and all that. In a fated world with finite time, 'future' and 'past' only have meaning depending on one's place in time.

Time is infinite means there's only the NOW time.
This time only flow in one direction; to the future.
Future will never exist until time reached that point.


So, your definiton- emphasis on your- of finite time means that there is no future. The actual definition of 'finite' does not preclude a future. The only thing finite implies is an eventual end.

Future exist after time reached "that" period.


This is not impossible in a finite timespan. The only thing a finite timespan makes impossible is going beyond the start and endpoints.

Sorry but time is not finite.
And you cant prove time is finite.
Time is infinite, because scientists studying string theory agree that time existed before the big bang (creation of our universe) and time will continue.
The explanation about Big Bang doesnt prove time is finite but prove space expand.


You entire argument relies on the false dichotomy of either 'finite time/ no time travel' or 'infinite time/ allowance of time travel'. And it IS a false dichotomy, since you are twisting the definition of finite to suit your purposes.

Or maybe you cant define the meaning of time.


No. When the Big Bang starts, so does time. We are still in the process of the Big Bang, after all.

Big Bang start only to show that space expand not time.
Everything needs time, the process of Big Bang needs time to occur.


Time can exist in something which does not exist? Paradox much?

Paradox.



So you can't explain your supposedly superior postulate, cannot explain its functional difference from the original theory, and in the end, you claim it is unknowable, and in doing so, fall into one of the most bizarre appeals to ignorance I've seen in awhile. You fail on so many levels.

Even you or your god or any god cant explain it.
Only Ultimecia can explain it.


Explain how Black Holes- which are nothing more than dense, supermassive bodies in space- prove an infinite universe. I look forward to your failure of an explanation.

You still need an explanation...?
I recommend you to study more harder.
Big Bang in this universe just like "unlimited abyss".
If you/something get inside Black Hole maybe you will end up in Hyperspace.


In effect, Ultimecia is now safe from the never ending witch hunts because she remains in an everlasting moment of time and everyone else has moved on...

Not really She got defeated by Squall and Co.
So goodbye "everlasting moment".

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

[
Not really She got defeated by Squall and Co.
So goodbye "everlasting moment".[/QUOTE]

Hey, main. That was low, that statement was about her possible motive. Not the actually outcome. So it's not goodbye.

I mean, think about it... You just compressed time. It's like Folding space like the Spice Masters in "Dune".

To move without moving. And she had to do it from the future because there were no others after here. She was the final Sorceress and the Ultimate Sorceress.

If you were the last of your kind and had survived through generations of strife... What would you do for your survival, no, your very existence?

I believe, note: I BELIEVE, NOT STATING FACT, that Ultimecia was more than just "evil"... Hell, I've been accused of being "evil"... Golbez was thought to be evil... Terra was thought to be evil... Martin Luther King was thought to be evil... I think Ultimecia wanted (que music) "One Moment In Time".... but why....?

[Viator]

Space = Time : Energy

Energy = Time : Space

Time = Space X Energy

Total of Time is bigger than Space and Energy.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Space = Time : Energy

Energy = Time : Space

Time = Space X Energy

Total of Time is bigger than Space and Energy.

That's redundant... Energy is the constant which of course is true.

What's I'm trying to understand is what is everyone talking about now...

Have we gotten to the relevance of the actual existence of "Time"?

The travel Time-Space verse Space-Time?

The Big Bang or The Crunch? Heat Disperal or Cold Collapse...

Ow my head! I think it's imploding from the White Hole Black Singularity of Blah-blah-bloop! LOL

Let's breath everyone and take a break.

[Shauna]

:( Here I was thinking that Future Esthar had returned to us with some more crazay theories. *sigh* Oh well~

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I'd just like to understand if we're talking about Ultimecia or just Time Compression?

I mean, I hear all about how time is 'infinite' but no one seems to focus that Ultimecia wasn't trying to compress ALL time, just various moments of the incarnations of the Sorceress Power. You can not compress the infinite for that would just be like well... The natural order of time as the present immediately becomes the past after the 'actual moment' has passed. It would be like travelling to the future 'too fast' and hitting a 'brick wall of oblivion' because the future hadn't been created yet... except in reverse in this case.

So are we talking about Ultimecia compressing time, or what/how/why are WE compressing time?

[Christmas]

I wish someone will agree with Little Viator. :(

[Sir Bahamut]

I mean, I hear all about how time is 'infinite' but no one seems to focus that Ultimecia wasn't trying to compress ALL time, just various moments of the incarnations of the Sorceress Power.

That's unfounded. There's nothing in the game states that Ultimecia had that much control over TC. The game merely tells us that TC compresses past, present and future, and that one side-effect of this will be that Ultimecia can readily absorb all the sorceress powers throughout time. Further, in Ultimecias scan info in the end, it explicitly states that she is "absorbing all existence", implying she's compressing ALL of time.


You can not compress the infinite for that would just be like well... The natural order of time as the present immediately becomes the past after the 'actual moment' has passed. It would be like travelling to the future 'too fast' and hitting a 'brick wall of oblivion' because the future hadn't been created yet... except in reverse in this case.

Well, the game suggests (indirectly) that the entire FF8 Universal Timeline all exists in full at any given 'time'. In other words the future and the past DO exist, and the concept of a 'present' becomes redundant. However, as you say, if this timeline were infinite it would be impossible for Ultimecia to fully compress all of time, indicating either that the timeline is finite in length, or that she is only compressing the past eras (relative to her own era in time, that is).

Anyway, the "discussion" going on here is on the specifics of TC. Everyone knows what it means in general (all of time compressed to a single point etc.), but not the specific mechanisms behind it. It's those mechanisms, as well as the general nature of time in FF8 which Ryu and Viator are arguing about.

Or, rather, Viator is coming up with outlandish ideas for those mechanisms etc. and Ryu is demonstrating his flaws.

[Ryushikaze]

I think I am still exist in this world... I dont know why..? Perhaps...

It means you haven't been run over by a bus. Don't look to much into it.



Time is infinite means there's only the NOW time.
This time only flow in one direction; to the future.
Future will never exist until time reached that point.

Look closely folks, he just equivocated from an earlier post.


Future exist after time reached "that" period.

And? How is this an argument against finite time? It applies equally to finite and infinite time.


Sorry but time is not finite.

Prove it.


And you cant prove time is finite.

And you can't prove time is infinite. Parsimony is on my side.


Time is infinite, because scientists studying string theory agree that time existed before the big bang (creation of our universe) and time will continue.

**** You and your claims without evidence. PROOF. NOW.


The explanation about Big Bang doesnt prove time is finite but prove space expand.

Time is a function of the universe created by the BB. It had no meaning 'before' the BB.


Or maybe you cant define the meaning of time.

Pot. Kettle. Black.
Y'know, it gets me that you've never ACTUALLY defined finite and infinite time. And considering you asked me several times to define inanely obviously things, pony up, pilgrim.


Big Bang start only to show that space expand not time.
Everything needs time, the process of Big Bang needs time to occur.

Stop parroting yourself, Viator.


Paradox.

Glad you accept it. Concession accepted.


Even you or your god or any god cant explain it.
Only Ultimecia can explain it.

Concession accepted, and stop bringing up god. Sky pixies annoy me.


You still need an explanation...?
I recommend you to study more harder.
Big Bang in this universe just like "unlimited abyss".
If you/something get inside Black Hole maybe you will end up in Hyperspace.

Concession accepted. Either explain your points or do not make them. 'Study more harder' is not a rebuttal. It's an evasion. It's also incredibly bad grammar, and I find it a good rule to not listen to insane crackpot ramblings when the rambler can't even ramble in a grammatically correct fashion.

Y'know, it gets me that you say only Ultimecia understands TC.
Well, she's the one who calls it TC. It's COMPRESSION. End of smegging discussion.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

All you're doing now is bashing everyone's view versus your own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Time_Stream_Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Travel

There are MANY MANY MORE theories than one of how the great Universe Began and will End.... Big Bang- The Crunch! Hot Expansion- Cold Death

And time travel and other stuff... You can't claim yourself as "The Right One" and just BLATANTLY put every one else's theories.

Look back at your last post. You're just bitchin' now... Calm da fu#% down... :p Unclench! Does anyone know how to spell chill-lax?

[Ryushikaze]

All you're doing now is bashing everyone's view versus your own.

Please don't appeal to my motives. It is incredibly irritating.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Time_Stream_Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Travel

There are MANY MANY MORE theories than one of how the great Universe Began and will End.... Big Bang- The Crunch! Hot Expansion- Cold Death

You do realize that I've mentioned in passing most of the alternatives in the time travel and fate of the universe theory, yes?
The infinite time stream one sounds psuedoscientific-y, and as the little blip at the bottom points out, originates in fiction.


And time travel and other stuff... You can't claim yourself as "The Right One" and just BLATANTLY put every one else's theories.

I didn't claim myself the right one.
And yes. I can blatantly put down other people's theories, when said theories are inane, crackpot, violate parsimony at every available turn, and rely on equivocations.


Look back at your last post. You're just bitchin' now... Calm da fu#% down... :p Unclench! Does anyone know how to spell chill-lax?

Look about two pages back. That's the last time Viator brought a new argument to the table. When he brings up a new point, or addresses a rebuttal, I'll respond to it. Until then, why bother?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Hey dude not trying to be a dick or anything but......Who's going to read all that?

The one who want to find the Truth

You'd be surprised... Not me, but you'd be surprised... Wait... I know... I'll get back to this later on tonight with my good buddy Jack, last name Daniels, and we'll... mull through it.... Yeah, this oughta be fun...:rolleyes2

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Lemme take a shot...

I've had several ideas of time travel and to me it involves that parallel dimensions to our own are all within the dimension of quantum physics. The dimension where anything can happen and in constant flux and it's impossible to predict anything. I think the exact moment is when the parallels cross and quantum occurs before the parallels level off. The quantum dimension is constant.

It's kinda like the parallels (including our own reality/dimension) are a school of fish swimming in the vast ocean (which the water represents the quantum dimension/energy or time)

Now say I alone or We represent a whole but multiple parellels... One school, but individual fish.

Now say we come across an identical school... We swim at each other. We can't exist in the same line or directions so some go left, right, up, down, loop-de-loop, some eat the other in their way, ect, ect.

This is the exact moment within the quantum that occurs. That 'coincidene' that comes and goes.

I turned left, while my parallel counterpart turn right. Live die. Quantum is the balance of the actual moment in endless flow of time across dimensions.

What happened and didn't happen here happened elsewhere...

I believe it was Morpheus who said: "It happened no other way than it could have happened."

"How do you know that?"

"We are still alive."

Whereas elsewhere... They we not still alive.

Well, that's my bit on Quantum Dimensions and Time. Next: Space-Time vs. Time-Space?

[DK]

"Zat is too bad. Let's see... There iz only
only one way to defeat Ultimecia. You must
kill her in ze future. There iz nothing we
can do unless we go to ze future. There is no
normal way to jump to ze future under normal
circumstances. But there iz still a way! It iz
because Sorceress Ultimecia plans to compress
time. Compressing time with magic... Vat good
will it do for ze sorceress to compress time?
There may be many reasons, but it doesn't
matter. Let's just figure out vat Ultimecia is
up to. In order for Ultimecia to exist in this
time, she must take over ze body of a sorceress
from ze present. But ze machine must have a
limit. Ultimecia probably needs to go back
further in time to achieve time compression.
Only Ellone can take her back further into ze
past. Zat iz why she iz desperately seeking
her. We must take advantage of Ellone's power.
There are 2 sorceresses in our time. Sorceress
Rinoa and Sorceress Adel. Of ze two, Adel has
not awakened yet. Once regeneration is
completed, neither Laguna nor I will be safe.
Sorceress Adel is probably in ze process of
awakening inside Lunatic Pandora. Ultimecia
will want to possess Adel, if Adel wakes up.
Zat vill be a horrible event. Adel iz a
horrible sorceress. If Adel's consciousness
wins over Ultimecia, Adel will first destroy
this era. So we must use Sorceress Rinoa to
inherit Ultimecia's powers. Zat's all for ze
mission briefing. First, go to Lunatic Pandora.
Ellone's probably being held captive inside, so
rescue her first. Then kill Sorceress Adel
before ze awakening process is completed. Now,
we're left with Rinoa as ze only sorceress of
this era. Then wait for Ultimecia to possess
Rinoa. When Ultimecia arrives, it's Ellone's
turn. Ellone will send Rinoa back to ze past
with Ultimecia. Ellone will have to send Rinoa
and Ultimecia inside another sorceress she
knows in the past. Edea or Adel... Zat's up to
Ellone. Once Ultimecia iz in ze past, she'll
use ze time compressoin magic. We'll see some
influence here. I don't know vat kind of
influence, but once Ellone feels it, she'll
cut Rinoa and Ultimecia off from ze past. Rinoa
will come back to this world. Ultimecia also
goes back to her own world. Vat would be left
is ze time compressed world. Past, present, and
future will all get mixed together. You will
keep moving through ze time compression toward
ze future. Once you're out of ze time
compression, zat will be Ultimecia's world.
It's all up to you after zat."


Everytime Viator posts more delusional rantings and refuses to accept that his made up papp will never be accepted because it is the biggest load of made up lies ever seen on this forum, I will quote this post again and again until it's closed or until he admits he has no idea what he's talking about. :D

[Rocket Edge]

Amen.

[Nightmare X]

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4007/timeparadoxxv8.jpg

Also, someone please, pretty please, PULEEAZE lock this thread, honestly, I can't believe someone can be so bad at arguing correctly that he has to resort to "I'M RIGHT BECAUSE PERSPECTIVE AND I'M RIGHT YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND, READ IT AGAIN UNTIL YOU GET IT, LOL".

Oh, and Viator, just so you know, Final Fantasy 8 is, you know, a video game, there's no evil sorceress trying to compress time from the future, or GF's, or magic, or whatever.

[Ryushikaze]

Everytime Viator posts more delusional rantings and refuses to accept that his made up papp will never be accepted because it is the biggest load of made up lies ever seen on this forum, I will quote this post again and again until it's closed or until he admits he has no idea what he's talking about. :D


Seconded. Only Embolden more of it each time.

[Omnislash07]

Ok first off sorry if this has already been discussed but I'm not about to read 13 pages of Viator's "I'm right because I say so and your wrong because you didnt read my last 10 threads" crap.

I think the reason it says Time Absorbtion or whatever when you scan Ulti is because in the world of FF8 time is not infinite and so all time must be absorbed into a single point and then it will be compressed. Kind of like if you are cooking, you get all the ingridients together in one place (time absorbtion) and then you mix them all together (time compression).

Edit: BTW how the hell did the knights ever let this get to 13 pages anyway

[Viator]

Space = Time : Energy

The concept of Space as used in modern science are three extrinsic orthogonal linear metrics that are associated with the concept of existence.

Space cannot be transmitted from one object to another.

Energy = Time : Space

The concept of Energy as used in modern science is an intrinsic linear metric that is associated with the concept of existence.

Energy can be transformed or imparted to another object

The concept of Mass as used in modern science is an intrinsic linear metric that is associated some part of existence.

Mass can be transformed or imparted to another object, depending on the context.

Time = Space X Energy

The concept of Time as used in modern science is an extrinsic linear metric that is associated with the concept of existence.

Time can not be transmitted from one object to another.


I mean, I hear all about how time is 'infinite' but no one seems to focus that Ultimecia wasn't trying to compress ALL time, just various moments of the incarnations of the Sorceress Power. You can not compress the infinite for that would just be like well... The natural order of time as the present immediately becomes the past after the 'actual moment' has passed. It would be like travelling to the future 'too fast' and hitting a 'brick wall of oblivion' because the future hadn't been created yet... except in reverse in this case.

TC is Magic.Ultimecia really wants to compress time even She realized Time is infinite because She really wants to compress time that's why She called that Magic Time Compression.
Scan Ultimecia it said Absorbing Time and Space NOT compressing.
This is the proof that TC is absorbing NOT compressing.
The Fact is that Magic actually absorbing time, simple as that.

In infinite time past,present and future exist at the same time.
Past,present and future exist at the same time in FF8 World.
So time is infinite in FF8 World


The game merely tells us that TC compresses past, present and future

That's only a assumption from characters.


Well, the game suggests (indirectly) that the entire FF8 Universal Timeline all exists in full at any given 'time'. In other words the future and the past DO exist, and the concept of a 'present' becomes redundant.

Time in FF8 is infinite by the proof past,present and future exist at the same time


(all of time compressed to a single point etc.),

Even you can compress all time into a single point there's always time outside of that single point.
If you absorbing time into a single point all of time will always keep going inside that single point to create A New Dimension of Time.


Or, rather, Viator is coming up with outlandish ideas for those mechanisms etc. and Ryu is demonstrating his flaws.

When he did that his explanation also has flaws.


Ultimecia plans to compress time. Compressing time with magic...

You have to know that this is only Odine's Speculation about TC.


Past, present, and future will all get mixed together

This is exactly what I said
Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.

This New Demension of Time will keep contain All Time (past,present,future and whatnot) because time is infinite the process of absorbing time will go on forever, that's why there's 2 Ultimecias, The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time to make The New Dimension of Time and The Second Ultimecia Ultimecia will/can reign in That New Dimension of Time.




It means you haven't been run over by a bus. Don't look to much into it.

Mind your own bussiness.


Look closely folks, he just equivocated from an earlier post.

That explanation is true.


And? How is this an argument against finite time? It applies equally to finite and infinite time.

I see you still dont understand.
In finite time Future will exist after time reached "that" period.
But in infinite time future exist just like the past and present.
In FF World past,present and future exist at the same time that means time is infinite in FF8 World.Understood?


Prove it.

See? you always demand Me to prove something while you cant prove time is finite.


And you can't prove time is infinite. Parsimony is on my side.

I am afraid I already prove it many times and you never prove time is finite.


**** You and your claims without evidence. PROOF. NOW.

You better ask those scientists because I am tired talking to you or maybe you should buy books about that and read it until you can understand.


Time is a function of the universe created by the BB. It had no meaning 'before' the BB.

Wrong.


Concession accepted, and stop bringing up god. Sky pixies annoy me.

I only bringing up god not God.


Concession accepted. Either explain your points or do not make them.

You still need Me to explain it..?
If you cant understand that while I bother talking about that any further.


Y'know, it gets me that you say only Ultimecia understands TC.
Well, she's the one who calls it TC. It's COMPRESSION. End of smegging discussion.

TC is Magic.Ultimecia really wants to compress time even She realized Time is infinite because She really wants to compress time that's why She called that Magic Time Compression.
The Fact is that Magic actually absorbing time, simple as that.

You always give bad counterpoint to My explanations.
Your counterpoint to My explanations doesnt make any sense at all.

You said "there's no time before Big Bang" while I already give the explanation that there's already time before Big Bang but
you just keep saying "before Big Bang there's no time" and ignore My explanations which are true, this is only to show that you lack of knowledge.

You said time is finite and I said time is infinite and you demand Me to prove it while the answer is right in front of you.
The fact is Time is infinite and you just using Big Bang as your hyphothesis as to why time is finite there's already time before Big Bang.
In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.
Time is infinite, because scientists studying string theory agree that time existed before the big bang (creation of our universe) and time will continue.
The explanation about Big Bang doesnt prove time is finite but prove space expand.

I wonder what kind of books did you read.

You always demanding Me to prove My Argument while you never ever satisfy with it and you counterpoint it with bad argument(i.e time is finite) to destroy My explanation and so far you cant prove that time is finite and you just keep talking like that to ignore My explanation/The Fact Time is infinite.

The best way to face someone like you is ignore it.
And Of course I cant just ignore you.
It actualy just waste of time for Me to talking with someone like you, someone that cant even find himself guilty while everyone else can.Doesnt that mean you dont have any feelings at all.

[f f freak]

Everyone let's just make up lots of strange equations and when Viator says they are wrong just say obviously you just don't understand so go look at my other threads that have no relevance to what I am saying now. I'll start

space%energy+time=I'm right and your wrong so there don't try and argue or else I'll just keep repeating myself and saying you don't understand.

See easy to do is it not.

[DK]

"Zat is too bad. Let's see... There iz only
only one way to defeat Ultimecia. You must
kill her in ze future. There iz nothing we
can do unless we go to ze future. There is no
normal way to jump to ze future under normal
circumstances. But there iz still a way! It iz
because Sorceress Ultimecia plans to compress
time. Compressing time with magic... Vat good
will it do for ze sorceress to compress time?
There may be many reasons, but it doesn't
matter. Let's just figure out vat Ultimecia is
up to. In order for Ultimecia to exist in this
time, she must take over ze body of a sorceress
from ze present. But ze machine must have a
limit. Ultimecia probably needs to go back
further in time to achieve time compression.
Only Ellone can take her back further into ze
past. Zat iz why she iz desperately seeking
her. We must take advantage of Ellone's power.
There are 2 sorceresses in our time. Sorceress
Rinoa and Sorceress Adel. Of ze two, Adel has
not awakened yet. Once regeneration is
completed, neither Laguna nor I will be safe.
Sorceress Adel is probably in ze process of
awakening inside Lunatic Pandora. Ultimecia
will want to possess Adel, if Adel wakes up.
Zat vill be a horrible event. Adel iz a
horrible sorceress. If Adel's consciousness
wins over Ultimecia, Adel will first destroy
this era. So we must use Sorceress Rinoa to
inherit Ultimecia's powers. Zat's all for ze
mission briefing. First, go to Lunatic Pandora.
Ellone's probably being held captive inside, so
rescue her first. Then kill Sorceress Adel
before ze awakening process is completed. Now,
we're left with Rinoa as ze only sorceress of
this era. Then wait for Ultimecia to possess
Rinoa. When Ultimecia arrives, it's Ellone's
turn. Ellone will send Rinoa back to ze past
with Ultimecia. Ellone will have to send Rinoa
and Ultimecia inside another sorceress she
knows in the past. Edea or Adel... Zat's up to
Ellone. Once Ultimecia iz in ze past, she'll
use ze time compressoin magic. We'll see some
influence here. I don't know vat kind of
influence, but once Ellone feels it, she'll
cut Rinoa and Ultimecia off from ze past. Rinoa
will come back to this world. Ultimecia also
goes back to her own world. Vat would be left
is ze time compressed world. Past, present, and
future will all get mixed together. You will
keep moving through ze time compression toward
ze future. Once you're out of ze time
compression, zat will be Ultimecia's world.
It's all up to you after zat."


Everytime Viator posts more delusional rantings and refuses to accept that his made up papp will never be accepted because it is the biggest load of made up lies ever seen on this forum, I will quote this post again and again until it's closed or until he admits he has no idea what he's talking about. :D

[Ryushikaze]

Time in FF8 is infinite by the proof past,present and future exist at the same time

Okay, repeat after me. If all time exists alongside itself, it does not necessarily follow that it is infinite.


Even you can compress all time into a single point there's always time outside of that single point.

Note the direct contradiction in his own statement.


If you absorbing time into a single point all of time will always keep going inside that single point to create A New Dimension of Time.

And as always, this is in no way functionally different than compressed time.


When he did that his explanation also has flaws.

That may be so, but I have loads less than you.


You have to know that this is only Odine's Speculation about TC.

Odine is a writer's convenience, a damn genius, and nothing ever actually contradicts his speculation, execpt your equivocation and misreading of Ulti's scan info.


This is exactly what I said
Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.

This New Demension of Time will keep contain All Time (past,present,future and whatnot) because time is infinite the process of absorbing time will go on forever, that's why there's 2 Ultimecias, The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time to make The New Dimension of Time and The Second Ultimecia Ultimecia will/can reign in That New Dimension of Time.

You admit your result is functionally identical, but you add extra terms for which there is no evidence for, and some evidence against.


Mind your own bussiness.

This is my business.


Look closely folks, he just equivocated from an earlier post.


That explanation is true.

Folks, please look, he just admitted to equivocating- attempting to use two different definitions interchangably for his own ends.


I see I still dont understand.

I edited this quote to make it more true.


In finite time Future will exist after time reached "that" period.
But in infinite time future exist just like the past and present.
In FF World past,present and future exist at the same time that means time is infinite in FF8 World.Understood?

And like I told you before, finite time does NOT preclude the future existing alongside the past and present.
Put another way- YOUR DEFINITION OF FINITE IS WRONG, OR YOU ARE DELIBERATELY EQUIVOCATING.


See? you always demand Me to prove something while you cant prove time is finite.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. 'Infinite' anything is incredibly extraordinary.


I am afraid I already prove it many times and you never prove time is finite.

You've never proved infinite time. You've tried to handwavium, technobabble your way into saying that completely irrelevant details prove infinite time.


You better ask those scientists because I am tired talking to you or maybe you should buy books about that and read it until you can understand.

Concession accepted. If you cannot support a claim on your own, DO NOT BRING IT UP. Appeals to authority will not be welcomed.


Wrong.

Concession accepted. Time is a function of the known universe, and did not exist before BB.
You must actually address points, child.


I only bringing up god not God.

Still a sky pixie. There is as much evidence for any god you care to mention as infinite time.


You still need Me to explain it..?
If you cant understand that while I bother talking about that any further.

CONCESSION ACCEPTED. IF YOU CANNOT EXPLAIN OR SUPPORT YOUR POINTS, DO NOT BOTHER TO MAKE THEM.


TC is Magic.Ultimecia really wants to compress time even She realized Time is infinite because She really wants to compress time that's why She called that Magic Time Compression.
The Fact is that Magic actually absorbing time, simple as that.

Fact is, in your last post, you said only Ulti can truely be knowledgeable of TC. In this post, you now claim to know more than Ulti.


You always give bad counterpoint to My explanations.
Your counterpoint to My explanations doesnt make any sense at all.

Garbage in, garbage out. Your explanations, quite simply, aren't.


You said "there's no time before Big Bang" while I already give the explanation that there's already time before Big Bang but
you just keep saying "before Big Bang there's no time" and ignore My explanations which are true, this is only to show that you lack of knowledge.

Time has no meaning in a singularity. It only 'works' in a universe of change. In the massive singularity, there is no such thing as our universe's time.


-snip-

'Scientists agree' won't cut it. Sources!
And BTB 'The big band did not happen in a pre-existing space and time' supports MY positions.
And even if time existed before the big bang- sure, let's entertain the notion, what's to say it extends endlessly?
Of course, let's look at Ulti. Why would she want to compress beyond the beginning of the universe, when her goal is THE UNIVERSE.


I wonder what kind of books did you read.

I wonder back twice, since you're the one spouting psuedoscience at me.


You always demanding Me to prove My Argument while you never ever satisfy with it and you counterpoint it with bad argument(i.e time is finite) to destroy My explanation and so far you cant prove that time is finite and you just keep talking like that to ignore My explanation/The Fact Time is infinite.

Did you ever stop to think that it's because you suffer the burden of proof and have never, not once, actually satisfied that burden?


The best way to face someone like you is ignore it.
And Of course I cant just ignore you.
It actualy just waste of time for Me to talking with someone like you, someone that cant even find himself guilty while everyone else can.Doesnt that mean you dont have any feelings at all.

No. It means I don't fear or follow the rules of a magical sky pixie who tells me I've been bad. This does not mean I'm an unfeeling monster.

[licence]

Can I ask why is Viator continuing to argue whle continually getting owned and having his argument dissected?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

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I think that Time Compression is an attempt of making a certain finite length of time last indefinitely as long as time itself exists. However, as we can see here, Ultimecia was unsuccessful and slowly lost the compressed time.

[finalfantasyguy4ever]

were doing what viator wants us to do argue this is a game as said before we will not get tc its jsut a game on a disc we play we enjoy it im tired of u guys argue just stop posting for a while and let this get closed time conpression was on the game the game was not to be cokmpared with real life if u can make all this jusnk from a game then i wanna see what u can do with a textbook viator i congrat u for your persistance but this is a game lets keep lievin life not a game we argue about let thewre be some peace up ion hear and lets stop arguing viator tc was made on a game not in life and why did every one keep him going we are all add wood to the fire each time we post so lets get this thread close anybody with me i want some peace

[Christmas]

were doing what viator wants us to do argue this is a game as said before we will not get tc its jsut a game on a disc we play we enjoy it im tired of u guys argue just stop posting for a while and let this get closed time conpression was on the game the game was not to be cokmpared with real life if u can make all this jusnk from a game then i wanna see what u can do with a textbook viator i congrat u for your persistance but this is a game lets keep lievin life not a game we argue about let thewre be some peace up ion hear and lets stop arguing viator tc was made on a game not in life and why did every one keep him going we are all add wood to the fire each time we post so lets get this thread close anybody with me i want some peace

ME AGREE, LET ME U ALL PEACE TOGETHER AND HAPPY.

[eragon1]

were doing what viator wants us to do argue this is a game as said before we will not get tc its jsut a game on a disc we play we enjoy it im tired of u guys argue just stop posting for a while and let this get closed time conpression was on the game the game was not to be cokmpared with real life if u can make all this jusnk from a game then i wanna see what u can do with a textbook viator i congrat u for your persistance but this is a game lets keep lievin life not a game we argue about let thewre be some peace up ion hear and lets stop arguing viator tc was made on a game not in life and why did every one keep him going we are all add wood to the fire each time we post so lets get this thread close anybody with me i want some peace

That is one pretty long sentence

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

:eek: Must... Obey... The... Wishes... Of... Viator...

[DfKimera]

Uuuhm, i don't get why so many theories and argument over unsolid /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif like a game script... Maybe if you guys used all your knowlodge and time to create a game, who knows if we woudn't have a fan-made FFVIII sequel?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Uuuhm, i don't get why so many theories and argument over unsolid /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif like a game script... Maybe if you guys used all your knowlodge and time to create a game, who knows if we woudn't have a fan-made FFVIII sequel?

Y'know what? That's not a bad idea... Expect the part about making a sequel to FFVIII...

[DK]

Whee, it's finally over.

[kikimm]

This is going absolutely nowhere and I'm sure we've all had enough.