Final Fantasy VIII Mysteries

[The Last Oath]

It seems that for quite a while now the ff8 forums have been the 'same ol', the riddles, the captioning and your every now and then odd type forum, we need to start putting in some interesting forums, maybe FE? You all say that he is full of crap but at least his threads get +100 replies, at least he gets people to reply and at least his threads are interesting. There are many theories in all Final Fantasy, especially ff8, concerning the time compression is one of the hardest things we have ever come acorss to understand and you know it. There are many things that have not been explained in ff8, you read occult fan is that ever really explained? There are so many loop holes in final fantasy and we have answered them in theory but what happened now? You all got boring, WHAT HAPPENED? Maybe you can get all your knowledge together and realise that there are more things to be revealed otherwise this forum will become boring just like a lot of other ones out there.

[Viator]

Just read "Revelation of Time Compression" thread.
You will find many explanation about TC in there.

[G SpOtZ]

Occult Fan is no mystery... It's to give you hints and stuff about sidequests. You've never connected them with PuPu and Doomtrain, for example?

[Sir Bahamut]

Haven't you also considered the fact that over the course of the 7 years FF8 has been out, every single topic of discussion has been done to death, and doing any more would just be beating a dead horse? There are in reality only two things which warrant debate such as you describe.

Firstly, there's time compression, but it's pretty obvious by now that Square never made the concept to be understandable (hence why the game merely tells us that it's a "complete mystery" and has no characters really understand it), hence although we can deduce a lot of interesting properties of it, we cannot ever truly solve it, simply because Square haven't given us the necessary information.

Secondly, there's the question of Ultimecia's motives. Here however, I would say the most reasonable explanation has already been deduced; Ultimecia just happened to become a sorceress as young, and since the people of the future knew that Ultimecia was supposed to be born and wreck havoc, they persecuted her, turning her to evil, and driving her to attempt to circumvent the fate recorded in history (ie. her being killed by Squall). This is, after all, the only motive suggested by the Ultimania itself. It should of course be unnecessary to say that R=U has been done to death too, and I'd rather jam sharp needles in myself than endure another debate on that matter.

So what's left to discuss? Well, nothing really. Perhaps there's something which has been overlooked for all these 7 years, but I doubt it. The fact is that FF8 is not a game with unlimited space for discussion. It has to end some time...

EDIT: And if your idea of a good FF8 discussion is an FE thread, then why not just stick to that? He doesn't look like he's stepping down any time soon...

[Christmas]

One of these days I will reveal how PuPu is the real hero of the whole bloody game and overrule all the other theories.

[IceAngel]

I have never ever come across PuPu yet :(.

I am trying to think of a question that hasn't been asked before so that there is another debate going but... nothing comes to mind.

The whole 'why is squall's surname Leonhart instead of Loire?' is always up for discussion so I can't really ask that.

[BG-57]

IceAngel, you might want to put spoiler tags on the second surname.

The last good new idea I had was that Eden was an organic version of a garden, but that was a long time ago.

We can speculate to death on R=U and time compression, but it would be hard to reach consensus that way.

At worst, we can still help Noobs who are lost in the game someplace. I like being helpful.

[Qurange]

I don't know about the game being done to death; I like to discuss the little minor elements, like Junctioning outside Garden, and other things that basically add and extrapolate detail in the game's world. Then again, mine tend to be focused; I tend to focus more on turning the game's world into a coherent, fleshed setting than on anything else, which colors a lot of my conclusions. I write fanfic, though, too, so I have a reason for that.

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, there are obviously always going to be more obscure things like that left, but the big debates (eg. Time Compression, Ultimecia etc.) have all been done to death by now.

[IceAngel]

IceAngel, you might want to put spoiler tags on the second surname.


:eek: Oh god! Of course. Sorry if peeps already read it. I've changed it now.

I like the idea of Eden being the Garden of the Future. Which could be why it was called Eden and looks the way it does.

[BG-57]

Sure thing. I doubt anyone who's posted so far would not know that already, but we get new people joining all the time.

Garden of the Future, hmm? It has a nice ring to it. :)

[41-Inches-Wide]

The only mystery I could point out is how Selphie would've known Moogle Cakes (she reveals that in Balamb Harbor while taking to a fisherman/chef), when in fact there are no Moogles in FF8! Omg Mystery!!!eleven.!

Anyway.
Yeah, how did Squall become Leonhart anyway. :/

[G SpOtZ]

Perhaps he was just given the last name of his mother, Raine Leonhart, instead of his father. When she died, maybe Laguna gave his son his mother's last name as a way to pay respect to her.
Or, Square just figured Leonhart was a cooler last name that would be in sync with his limit break name.
Of course... that's clearly based on speculation.

[Viator]

Firstly, there's time compression, but it's pretty obvious by now that Square never made the concept to be understandable (hence why the game merely tells us that it's a "complete mystery" and has no characters really understand it), hence although we can deduce a lot of interesting properties of it, we cannot ever truly solve it, simply because Square haven't given us the necessary information.

The explanation about TC is not really that complicated.
You cant accept any theory(about TC) presented to you because first thing in your mind about TC is Complete Mystery.That's why no matter how many explanation you read you wont accept it.

Even Gods cant tell what's going on when TC happens.
Anyway just read My thread if you want to know more about TC.


Secondly, there's the question of Ultimecia's motives. Here however, I would say the most reasonable explanation has already been deduced; Ultimecia just happened to become a sorceress as young, and since the people of the future knew that Ultimecia was supposed to be born and wreck havoc, they persecuted her, turning her to evil, and driving her to attempt to circumvent the fate recorded in history (ie. her being killed by Squall). This is, after all, the only motive suggested by the Ultimania itself. It should of course be unnecessary to say that R=U has been done to death too, and I'd rather jam sharp needles in myself than endure another debate on that matter.

I already give the explanation that people from future wont know anything about Ultimecia or TC.
What I mean is The Secret about Ultimecia will Reveal in future AFTER Ultimecia rise to power.
And again in Galbadia Garden Ultimecia said Squall was destiny to FACE Her NOT to KILL Her,that means Ultimecia doesnt really want to believe that Revelation (Death at Squall's Hand).

I ask you question now I hope you can answer it.
When Lunatic Pandora cross over Esthar I know Esthar solders trying to stop it from entering Tears Point.The question is why they dont at least destroy Tears Point to reduce Lunar Cry effect?

[Lilliputian Hitcher]

Answer to any question regarding FFVIII's plot:

Because it's contrived/poorly written

Seriously, try it.

[Qurange]

Gee, that's productive. I can't really agree with that one.

[Sir Bahamut]

It does seem to be the answer to some questions though. Like why Edea didn't realise she wasn't a sorceress anymore. But not EVERY question, I guess..

[Zeromus_X]

I don't really see why it would be poorly written.

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, there's obviously no reason for Square to do so, but if they did, then what's not to see? FF8, and FF's in general DON'T have Nobel price winning plots and scripts, and aren't really meant to either, so it's only to be expected that there are going to be some holes which have no other explanation than sloppiness on Square's side.

[Qurange]

Sure; but that's why to come up with coherent theories, a little bit of suspension of disbelief is required.

[Sir Bahamut]

True, but in some cases, the sloppiness clutters any and all attempt at forming fully coherent theories, TC being the prime example.

[Qurange]

Hmmm, I'd probably at least use gentler terms; with TC, you /can/ make coherent theories about it, but it might just be better to go 'it's magic; let's think of it in very general terms and fill in the rest with reality-altering powers making it all confusing'.

But pretty much, yeah. There is a point at which we go 'it doesn't seem to make sense, let's get the most sensible thing we can get and accept it.'

[Sir Bahamut]

But pretty much, yeah. There is a point at which we go 'it doesn't seem to make sense, let's get the most sensible thing we can get and accept it.'

Exactly.

And perhaps "sloppiness" is a bit harsh. Then again, considering that what Square basically put in as an explanation was more or less "All of time compressed together; a complete mystery which no one understands, not even Odine", and then go ahead and abuse it as much as possible for plot purposes without considering the fact that they might not be making any sense at all, it might not be THAT harsh.

[Zeromus_X]

I don't even understand why anyone would even want to make sense out of these things anyway, it's a fictional game. It doesn't need to conform to reality perfectly. Maybe it's just me though...but if these things have any explanations from inside the game, that's good enough for me. Part of why I loved the story of VIII was because of it's surreality. I suppose you could call it 'contrived' or 'sloppy'...but that's probably why it appealed to me.

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, it's obviously purely a personal pleasure kind of thing to try and make coherent theories of such things as TC. It's just an interesting way of passing time.

[Viator]

The explanation by Square about TC is very simple and make sense.

[Christmas]

And people make it complicated.

[Viator]

Not really...
It depents on how you look that explanation

[Lionheart00]

Going back to the Eden thing.....yes it does look like a garden but, do u ever wonder about the Garden of Eden in the Bible?????
Any relevance there????
Hmm???:D

[Qurange]

Possibly in naming, but I doubt there's any in-game relevance, considering that FF8 lacks organized religion, as far as I can tell.

[IceAngel]

Yeah the garden of Eden from the Bible was probably a naming term but I just think it looks like a futuristic garden :tongue:

[Captain Maxx Power]

Future Esthar is a God. I don't think any of us are worthy to step into his slightly-tapped genius shoes.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Eden is a "Time Machine"...

[Future Esthar]

I am no God guys.
What about the Winhill picture appearing on the presidencial pallace on Esthar?
No one provided explanation for that.
And no,it wasn´t Laguna because as far as I know he don´t wanna publicity on the village.

Even if someone went to Winhill on vacances and painted the town that person would put the picture on his house,not on the palace.

The palace is a place were important things to the city were kept or discussed.
I don´t think it would be relevant to post a picture of Winhill on the Palace just because Estharians intended for Ellone to rule there in Adel´s place.
What do you think?

[Lilliputian Hitcher]

This again? I already solved every mystery within FFVIII.

What the hell.

[Future Esthar]

I had not been on the forums for a long time and I didn´t read your answer.Could you post it again please?

[Lilliputian Hitcher]

I could do that.

Or you could just read the first page of this thread.

[Ryushikaze]

Or Laguna is nostalgic and put the painting up.

Esthar already knows where Winhill is, so 'hiding' it is redundant.

[Future Esthar]

I am sure Laguna don´t wanna them to go there even though.So he would not put there something.
To show that your argument is invalid one notes that Galbadian CIVILIANS know about Winhill´s existence.He just don´t wanna much publicity.

[Ryushikaze]

Thank you for invalidating your own position.

EVERYONE knows about Winhill. There is no reason to hide it. Nostalgia explains the painting easily.

[Future Esthar]

The same was equally true at the dream´s time,yet Laguna don´t want much publicity.Note here that Estharians had already been to Winhill.
But it didn´t matter.Laguna basically don´t wanna to amplify the already existent knowledge.Not even for nostalgia.

[Ryushikaze]

Evidence of Laguna's intent.

Evidence of ANYTHING you claim. NOW.

[G SpOtZ]

Evidence of Laguna's intent.

Evidence of ANYTHING you claim. NOW.
Evidence? Pshhh, FE doesn't need evidence! You can't just MAKE UP these kind of ideas that FE has, they're so outrageous they MUST be true. Come on Ryushi, he's obviously right about this all.

[Ryushikaze]

Evidence of Laguna's intent.

Evidence of ANYTHING you claim. NOW.
Evidence? Pshhh, FE doesn't need evidence! You can't just MAKE UP these kind of ideas that FE has, they're so outrageous they MUST be true. Come on Ryushi, he's obviously right about this all.

Y'know, I think you've managed to create a whole new version of the argument ad absurdum. Good show.

[Future Esthar]

Evidence of Laguna's intent.

Evidence of ANYTHING you claim. NOW.


I already give the evidence at post 41.

Laguna states it on Winhill.He states that he don´t wanna to make publicity around the town.

[Ryushikaze]

Post 41 contains a claim. Not evidence. QUOTES, from the game, are evidence.

Of course, I fail to see how A picture, in HIS residence, counts as Publicity.

[licence]

You said that why wouldn't have it in his home inseatd of the palace. I always thought Presidents and Kings etc lived in palaces/presedential residences. For example Buckingham Palace.

Also just because a painting is on the wall doesn't mean that when someone sees that painting they would automatically know what town it is.

[Future Esthar]

It´s publicity because persons going there will pass through the painting.

The evidence you ask lies on what Laguna said on Winhill.He said he don´t wanna publicity on Winhill.


Also just because a painting is on the wall doesn't mean that when someone sees that painting they would automatically know what town it is.


If I show you a picture of Tokyo and you never heard of Tokyo did this mean I am not doing publicity?

[The Crystal]

Someone know how Ellone gained her powers?

[Ryushikaze]

It´s publicity because persons going there will pass through the painting.

That's not publicity at all. Special Pleading.


The evidence you ask lies on what Laguna said on Winhill.He said he don´t wanna publicity on Winhill.

And Kiros understands that the reason Laguna said that was because he was worried someone else might steal Raine from him.
He was ALSO talking about publicity in relation to a magazine with a worldwide circulation. Even allowing that a single painting COUNTS as publicity- which it doesn't- that's a scale entirely different than worldwide circulation.


If I show you a picture of Tokyo and you never heard of Tokyo did this mean I am not doing publicity?

Yes. It means you are not promoting Tokyo. You have a single, unidentified painting, which in no way advocates a trip to the area depicted.

[Future Esthar]

Why didn´t Laguna puts it on his office then?
Do he wanna just to remember Winhill when going down?

[Ryushikaze]

Why didn´t Laguna puts it on his office then?
Do he wanna just to remember Winhill when going down?

If he's as worried about publicity as you seem to think he is, why leave it up, period?
Or maybe, he ISN'T as worried about publicity as you think he is, because Kiros hit the nail on the head, and he doesn't have to worry about Raine being stolen by someone else because they're already married.

[G SpOtZ]

Raine is dead.

[Ryushikaze]

Raine is dead.

That too, but I was saying even if he didn't know she was Galuf/Leo/Aerith, they be hitched, and he need not worry as much.

[Future Esthar]

You are right.
But even so you didn´t answer my question

Why didn´t Laguna puts it on his office then?
Do he wanna just to remember Winhill when going down?

[Ryushikaze]

You are right.
But even so you didn´t answer my question

Why didn´t Laguna puts it on his office then?
Do he wanna just to remember Winhill when going down?

I fail to see the relevance of him placing the picture elsewhere. Perhaps he placed it there for the calming effect it would have on visitors. Unless you have a point to make about its placement, its placement is completely irrelevant.

[Future Esthar]

Answer this question,please:
When you go to an important place on a city what did you see?(In the context of this topic).

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Well, there are obviously always going to be more obscure things like that left, but the big debates (eg. Time Compression, Ultimecia etc.) have all been done to death by now.

Ah, that's a bunch of hooey. There's always gonna be new players and so the questions will always come up. Just cuz you're tired of seeing it and wrote a book about it is no reason why it can't be discussed....

Personally, I like these little mysteries. Fills in some blanks, and sparks some tinders of inspiration for the old writer's table.

Two of my favorite are of course R=U and Time Compression: The Everlasting Moment. :D

And here's something you should know by now kids, and I've been 'booed' for this but accept it...

Eden? ... EDEN IS A TIME MACHINE....

[Ryushikaze]

Answer this question,please:
When you go to an important place on a city what did you see?(In the context of this topic).

I know where you're going with this, and it is incorrect. Or rather, too narrow in scope. What one displays in a room depends on what the room is for. If said room is intended to display the history of a place, it will be filled with relevant items. If a room is instead a hospitality lounge/suite/what have you, then it will most likely be filled with objet d'art, to soothe and/or occupy its residents.


Ah, that's a bunch of hooey. There's always gonna be new players and so the questions will always come up. Just cuz you're tired of seeing it and wrote a book about it is no reason why it can't be discussed....

Wow... he never said that. He said it's been done to death, which it has, regardless of newbs.


Personally, I like these little mysteries. Fills in some blanks, and sparks some tinders of inspiration for the old writer's table.

Two of my favorite are of course R=U and Time Compression: The Everlasting Moment. :D

The first of which is Bullhonkey and the second of which has never been satisfactorily explained, or backed up to date.


And here's something you should know by now kids, and I've been 'booed' for this but accept it...

Eden? ... EDEN IS A TIME MACHINE....

If you're so sure, prove it.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Answer this question,please:
When you go to an important place on a city what did you see?(In the context of this topic).

I know where you're going with this, and it is incorrect. Or rather, too narrow in scope. What one displays in a room depends on what the room is for. If said room is intended to display the history of a place, it will be filled with relevant items. If a room is instead a hospitality lounge/suite/what have you, then it will most likely be filled with objet d'art, to soothe and/or occupy its residents.


Ah, that's a bunch of hooey. There's always gonna be new players and so the questions will always come up. Just cuz you're tired of seeing it and wrote a book about it is no reason why it can't be discussed....

Wow... he never said that. He said it's been done to death, which it has, regardless of newbs.


Personally, I like these little mysteries. Fills in some blanks, and sparks some tinders of inspiration for the old writer's table.

Two of my favorite are of course R=U and Time Compression: The Everlasting Moment. :D

The first of which is Bullhonkey and the second of which has never been satisfactorily explained, or backed up to date.


And here's something you should know by now kids, and I've been 'booed' for this but accept it...

Eden? ... EDEN IS A TIME MACHINE....

If you're so sure, prove it.

I 'proved' that Eden was a time machine a long time ago... There's no sense in me doing it again when the answer is right in front of you... If there is such a thing as a JME, then Eden is the closest thing to it. Besides, no matter what I say, you'll just come up with something to dismiss it out of petty and spite... :laugh:

If it was 'done to death' it wouldn't be a discussion to date, now would it? Face it... it's like the mystery of religion... Believe it or not, it's not going away... So if you're tired to death of the endless discussion... :laugh:

[Ryushikaze]

I 'proved' that Eden was a time machine a long time ago... There's no sense in me doing it again when the answer is right in front of you...

Bad PAK. Saying you did it, then proceeding to NOT give evidence, and then following it up with an implication that I am deficient? Bad Monkey. No Banana.


If there is such a thing as a JME, then Eden is the closest thing to it. Besides, no matter what I say, you'll just come up with something to dismiss it out of petty and spite... :laugh:

Appeal to smegging motive, PAK. And your logic does not follow. How is Eden the closest thing to JME, when no one has actually said what the machine looks like. Heck, it could even be Ulti's throne, or something as simple as a watch. There's no reason for it to be a giant spacebound GF.


If it was 'done to death' it wouldn't be a discussion to date, now would it?

Zombie movies are more than done to death and they still keep coming out. Just because something has been utterly exhausted does not mean it won't be trotted out occasionally for a flogging.


Face it... it's like the mystery of religion... Believe it or not, it's not going away... So if you're tired to death of the endless discussion... :laugh:

Yeah, religion IS a mystery. Why do so many people believe despite an overwhelming lack of evidence, results, or reason? And who ever said I was tired? Come on, bring on the sadistic treatment of a necrotic equine. I got my bat good and ready.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I 'proved' that Eden was a time machine a long time ago... There's no sense in me doing it again when the answer is right in front of you...

Bad PAK. Saying you did it, then proceeding to NOT give evidence, and then following it up with an implication that I am deficient? Bad Monkey. No Banana.


If there is such a thing as a JME, then Eden is the closest thing to it. Besides, no matter what I say, you'll just come up with something to dismiss it out of petty and spite... :laugh:

Appeal to smegging motive, PAK. And your logic does not follow. How is Eden the closest thing to JME, when no one has actually said what the machine looks like. Heck, it could even be Ulti's throne, or something as simple as a watch. There's no reason for it to be a giant spacebound GF.


If it was 'done to death' it wouldn't be a discussion to date, now would it?

Zombie movies are more than done to death and they still keep coming out. Just because something has been utterly exhausted does not mean it won't be trotted out occasionally for a flogging.


Face it... it's like the mystery of religion... Believe it or not, it's not going away... So if you're tired to death of the endless discussion... :laugh:

Yeah, religion IS a mystery. Why do so many people believe despite an overwhelming lack of evidence, results, or reason? And who ever said I was tired? Come on, bring on the sadistic treatment of a necrotic equine. I got my bat good and ready.


First off, don't you EVER call me a fuggin' "Monkey" again. That's an uncalled for unprovoked derogatory statement. What is your fuggin' problem man? I haven't insulted you and done anything to deserve this. I don't care how 'annoying' I am to you, but I don't deserve that. And it seems that no matter what I say, it annoys you.


It makes it pointless for me post anything because all you're going to do is spin whatever I say into making me look like a 'monkey'. Why do you think I've been writing in in-direct statements like this? I've just been engaging reaction after reaction after reaction. And all of them have been what; negative. You can't even answer a simple question when I post it. And I know why...

Because you can't... Or... Look, just stop it with the insults and start making your own original posts instead of just spinning on what people say simply because you don't agree with it.

Now, as I said years ago, when people were getting into flame wars about what "Eden" was. I said that Eden was a "Time Machine". It made perfect sense to me. Everyone else thinks it's a "Garden". I thought otherwise so that made me a 'idiot'. So let's see what I see... Take a walk in my shoes.

Eden takes it's target back to the beginning of time, the beginning of creation: The BIG BANG for only a split second, a split second of feeling the raw energy that created the universe, and then returns them back to the present severely damaged. Watch the summons again, look at the clock. The name Eden. This is how I see it. Hell, I watch while eating popcorn, this summons is so long.

Now just the other day, it dawned on me that because of Eden's nature to take targets back through time and it was an experimental man-made GF, that it was the closest thing to this fabeled JME. I'm definitely not saying that Eden is "The" JME, but simply that it seems to function on a similar mechanics as the JME was described. Frankly, I don't think the JME even exists.

But here, let me help you get all your insults out in one fell-swoop...

I also believe that Para-Magic is an inherent ability and anyone can use, but it requires a GF (quasi-sentient entities of energy) to use higher power levels of energy. Also that most para-magics are telepathic illusions while some are physical manifestations of energy. I believe that Rinoa could possibly become Ultimecia,

Now there... I've pretty much put ideas of 'mysteries' of FFVIII out there.

Hate me if you want, but don't ridicule me for my ideals. Just because I have an imagination is no reason to insult me. Especially when we're talking about Fantasy. Imagination and curiosity are the two reasons why this thread was started in the first place and why I came here. We're here to discuss the 'mysteries' not 'debate' about them.

[Skyblade]

Face it... it's like the mystery of religion... Believe it or not, it's not going away... So if you're tired to death of the endless discussion... :laugh:

Yeah, religion IS a mystery. Why do so many people believe despite an overwhelming lack of evidence, results, or reason? And who ever said I was tired? Come on, bring on the sadistic treatment of a necrotic equine. I got my bat good and ready.

Drop the relegion talk. It's off topic, and I don't want to wind up blasting you, Ryu, when blasting PAK is so much more fun.


Eden takes it's target back to the beginning of time, the beginning of creation: The BIG BANG for only a split second, a split second of feeling the raw energy that created the universe, and then returns them back to the present severely damaged. Watch the summons again, look at the clock. The name Eden. This is how I see it. Hell, I watch while eating popcorn, this summons is so long.

Logical fallacy. It is not, and in fact cannot be taking its target back to the Big Bang. Simply because the target rams a galaxy, which is what causes that massive explosion, and a galaxy could not possibly have existed before the Big Bang. Also, the explosion is quite clearly caused by Eden, so arguing that the explosion is the Big Bang enters into paradox territory.

[Christmas]

What a mess.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

[QUOTE=Pharoh Amon Khan III;1912250]Face it... it's like the mystery of religion... Believe it or not, it's not going away... So if you're tired to death of the endless discussion... :laugh:

Yeah, religion IS a mystery. Why do so many people believe despite an overwhelming lack of evidence, results, or reason? And who ever said I was tired? Come on, bring on the sadistic treatment of a necrotic equine. I got my bat good and ready.


Drop the relegion talk. It's off topic, and I don't want to wind up blasting you, Ryu, when blasting PAK is so much more fun.

Then you may as well tell the other posts to stop referring to the Bible and Eden. So why are you telling just me to stop? I'll tell ya why: Spite. And don't deny or lie, or your nose will grow.


Eden takes it's target back to the beginning of time, the beginning of creation: The BIG BANG for only a split second, a split second of feeling the raw energy that created the universe, and then returns them back to the present severely damaged. Watch the summons again, look at the clock. The name Eden. This is how I see it. Hell, I watch while eating popcorn, this summons is so long.


Logical fallacy. It is not, and in fact cannot be taking its target back to the Big Bang. Simply because the target rams a galaxy, which is what causes that massive explosion, and a galaxy could not possibly have existed before the Big Bang. Also, the explosion is quite clearly caused by Eden, so arguing that the explosion is the Big Bang enters into paradox territory.

Logical Fallacy? That's oxymoron in a Fantasy Discussion isn't it? And everyone looks at the name Eden and thinks "Garden" and "The Bible"... Eden can also refer to the "Beginning". Hmm... Didn't think of that one ya Pinnochio? I mean, honestly, how can you claim it as 'fallacy'... Are we looking at the same summons or what?


For the love of the widow. Are you still mad Pinnochio? Even more spiteful-spit. And you admitted that yourself by saying "Making for fun of PAK is more fun". That's nothing but spite. You get a STFU.

AND that IS the BIG BANG! It's how the universe, (galaxies and what not) started. What do think the clock animation represented? The target doesn't 'ram' the galaxy as so much as it shoots the target through time and hits the energy of the Big Bang just as the Big Bang occurs releasing the now expanding universe. and then is placed back in the present. Hence, Eden... The Beginning...

Now, you can't claim to judge my version of Eden without expressing your own original ideas... I mean, at least what I said makes the animation make sense.

So go ahead, state you original idea of what Eden is and the animation. I would honestly love to hear them...

ANd anyone else's...

[Skyblade]

Face it... it's like the mystery of religion... Believe it or not, it's not going away... So if you're tired to death of the endless discussion... :laugh:

Yeah, religion IS a mystery. Why do so many people believe despite an overwhelming lack of evidence, results, or reason? And who ever said I was tired? Come on, bring on the sadistic treatment of a necrotic equine. I got my bat good and ready.

Drop the relegion talk. It's off topic, and I don't want to wind up blasting you, Ryu, when blasting PAK is so much more fun.

Then you may as well tell the other posts to stop referring to the Bible and Eden. So why are you telling just me to stop? I'll tell ya why: Spite. And don't deny or lie, or your nose will grow.

Actually, if you bother to read what I was saying (which you never seem to do), I was asking both you and Ryu to stop it. If you want to relate religion to the thread topic, that's fine, but if you notice, you were referring to "the mystery of relegion", and Ryu was switching the discussion to a "does God exist" thread. Neither of you were giving anything even remotely related to what the thread was about, as everyone else was doing when they pointed out that the Biblical garden of Eden was the source of Eden's name.




Eden takes it's target back to the beginning of time, the beginning of creation: The BIG BANG for only a split second, a split second of feeling the raw energy that created the universe, and then returns them back to the present severely damaged. Watch the summons again, look at the clock. The name Eden. This is how I see it. Hell, I watch while eating popcorn, this summons is so long.

Logical fallacy. It is not, and in fact cannot be taking its target back to the Big Bang. Simply because the target rams a galaxy, which is what causes that massive explosion, and a galaxy could not possibly have existed before the Big Bang. Also, the explosion is quite clearly caused by Eden, so arguing that the explosion is the Big Bang enters into paradox territory.

Logical Fallacy? That's oxymoron in a Fantasy Discussion isn't it? And everyone looks at the name Eden and thinks "Garden" and "The Bible"... Eden can also refer to the "Beginning". Hmm... Didn't think of that one ya Pinnochio?


For the love of the widow. Are you still mad Pinnochio? Even more spiteful-spit. And you admitted that yourself by saying "Making for fun of PAK is more fun". That's nothing but spite. You get a STFU.

Ha ha ha. Is that still the only defense you can offer against logic? You call me a puppet and you claim to pull the strings? Why not try to actually use your brain for once? This isn't in PMs this time, PAK. Go on. You'll prove to the entire forum just how deficient your debate abilities really are. Or would you prefer me to just paste all those PMs in here and ask everyone else to judge us by what was said in them?


AND that IS the BIG BANG! It's how the universe, (galaxies and what not) started.

Then how was there already a galaxy there before that explosion, oh wonder of modern thought?


What do think the clock animation represented? The target doesn't 'ram' the galaxy as so much as it reaches it just as the Big Bang occurs and then is placed back in the present.

I never related that animation to a clock. I've always thought it was simply a magic glyph. We've seen hundreds of them in FF games. Every summon in X even had their own. But, that is open to speculation, and I will allow you that claim. However, even if it was a clock and was indeed time travel, it cannot be going back to the Big Bang.


Now, you can't claim to judge my version of Eden without expressing what you see... I mean, at least what I said makes the animation make sense.

Well, actually, I can. But I won't.


So go ahead, state you original idea of what Eden is and the animation.

Personally, I've always viewed it like this: Eden is using the universe as a massive particle accelerator, imparting upon its target a velocity near that of light before striking it into the heart of a galaxy, the birthplace of stars. That sort of kinetic energy striking that much unstable material causes a massive explosion.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Okay...

1. That doesn't look like a 'galaxy' to me. More like a massive black hole.

2. The 'runes' that you're referring to, have Roman Numerals on them like a clock. and it's 'gears' are going backwards to align with the Cosmic Alignment. Hence, why I mentioned the clock animation.

3. I don't know about 'using the entire universe' as a particle accelerator. Coudn't the kinetic energy of the rotation of the earth do that alone? Good idea though... But, also, how does the target get put back where it was taken? And if it struck a galaxy with that much kinetic potential, would it start a massive energy wake or create a huge galactic collapse, ergo a super massive black hole?

I prefer the Time Machine, it makes more sense to me, but you have a good idea. For Love of the Widow, I wish I knew how to post pics on this thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mht4jHNT34g


You see how it warps gravity to bring the target to it's... uh... time-portal shooter-thingie? Warp gravity, you're screwing with time. Also, the clock animation and then when it forms that tunnel through space...


4. Also, I wouldn't suggest posting PM messages because that's what they are Private Messages. I could do the same with all the hate-mail I get, but what's the point? It's just pathetic and petty.


Explain further about Eden, because after this I wanna ask about Alexander next, The Holy Armageddon Machine.

[Skyblade]

Okay...

1. That doesn't look like a 'galaxy' to me. More like a massive black hole.

See the pic I attached. It looks far more like a galaxy than any picture of a Black Hole I've ever seen. Of course, even if it was a black hole, where did the Black Hole come from, if this is before the Big Bang?


2. The 'runes' that you're referring to, have Roman Numerals on them like a clock. and it's 'gears' are going backwards to align with the Cosmic Alignment. Hence, why I mentioned the clock animation.

You're right, the numerals look like a clock. As to the backshifting you've mentioned, it's meaning is up for debate, but I'll grant that you have a reasonable interpretation of it, except that even if it is a time machine, it can't be going back to the Big Bang. Anyway, with any near relativistic speeds, temporal equations would certainly be necessary, so I could adapt that to my idea too.


3. I don't know about 'using the entire universe' as a particle accelerator. Coudn't the kinetic energy of the rotation of the earth do that alone? Good idea though... But, also, how does the target get put back where it was taken? And if it struck a galaxy with that much kinetic potential, would it start a massive energy wake or create a huge galactic collapse, ergo a super massive black hole?

Actually, the results of such an impact would be difficult to calculate. The result that occurs, a nearly galaxy sized explosion, might be possible, but the result could be simply a supernova.

As to how they get back, how does Sephiroth's Supernova destroy the entire solar system, several times? How would they get back from the Big Bang?


I prefer the Time Machine, it makes more sense to me, but you have a good idea. For Love of the Widow, I wish I knew how to post pics on this thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mht4jHNT34g


You see how it warps gravity to bring the target to it's... uh... time-portal shooter-thingie? Warp gravity, you're screwing with time. Also, the clock animation and then when it forms that tunnel through space...

You prefer your theory, I prefer mine. Whether that is actual gravitational distortion or not is certainly up for debate.



4. Also, I wouldn't suggest posting PM messages because that's what they are Private Messages. I could do the same with all the hate-mail I get, but what's the point? It's just pathetic and petty.

Then don't refer to them, period. If you do so, by calling me "Pinnochio" again, I will present those for full viewing in the Eyes on Each Other forum, explaining that you agreed to it (because such name calling will be an indication to me that you want that discussion to be a matter of public record).


Explain further about Eden, because after this I wanna ask about Alexander next, The Holy Armageddon Machine.

There isn't that much to explain about this, I don't think.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Okay...

1. That doesn't look like a 'galaxy' to me. More like a massive black hole.


See the pic I attached. It looks far more like a galaxy than any picture of a Black Hole I've ever seen. Of course, even if it was a black hole, where did the Black Hole come from, if this is before the Big Bang?.

I don't see the pic you're referring to. I've seen and LOVE the show NOVA, and black holes are depicted in various shapes and sizes. And What I'm saying is that this 'galaxy' or 'blackhole' isn't before, the Big Bang, it IS the ENERGY that triggers the Big Bang. Originally the universe was a collapsed state of matter, as theorized, this I surmise to be that pre-bang energy. IThere had to be some form of matter there before it exploded and to it's current expanding state. I mean, if you claim that the Big Bang come from nothing then we're going to have to refer to God 'snapping his fingers' and saying "Let there be light". Also pluasiable but just hard to work into this analysis as we've detailed so far. Now, it also could be that we're witnessing the "Crunch" because the clock spins forward, but the 'gears' spin backwards till there is a "Cosmic Alignment". Forwards or backwards, I'm not sure, but I'm sure time travel to the Alpha and/or Omega is involved.


2. The 'runes' that you're referring to, have Roman Numerals on them like a clock. and it's 'gears' are going backwards to align with the Cosmic Alignment. Hence, why I mentioned the clock animation.


You're right, the numerals look like a clock. As to the backshifting you've mentioned, it's meaning is up for debate, but I'll grant that you have a reasonable interpretation of it, except that even if it is a time machine, it can't be going back to the Big Bang. Anyway, with any near relativistic speeds, temporal equations would certainly be necessary, so I could adapt that to my idea too..

See, NOW we're discussing, not debating. I see Eden as warping time and space. In fact, this could be a perfect visual aid for "Time Compression"... Nah, maybe not, but it does give a good representation of a timeline and 'stages' (the circle around the tunnel) through time itself. The beginning of the summons show's Eden in some sort of temporal distortion and it seems to be 'viewing' various occurences or events (be this current, throughout time when it's 'supposed' to appear, or whatever it's up for discussion) As I suspect that Eden is a quasi-techo-organic GF (which is strange for an entity of energy, but Eden is supposedly 'man-made') it maybe be already calculating pre-designated coordinates of 'when' it's suppose to appear next.

Also to reiterate, this makes me believe that this is the closest thing to a JME and it maybe the 'toy' that Odine was referring to. I personally don't believe the JME exist, but this is a strong notion I just got.



3. I don't know about 'using the entire universe' as a particle accelerator. Coudn't the kinetic energy of the rotation of the earth do that alone? Good idea though... But, also, how does the target get put back where it was taken? And if it struck a galaxy with that much kinetic potential, would it start a massive energy wake or create a huge galactic collapse, ergo a super massive black hole?


Actually, the results of such an impact would be difficult to calculate. The result that occurs, a nearly galaxy sized explosion, might be possible, but the result could be simply a supernova..

Hmm... You could be right, but it has been theorized that making a 'hyper-jump' in an atmosphere or near a planetary gravity well, could cause incredible havoc. Possibly a galactic chain reaction if your example is correct. Hmm....


As to how they get back, how does Sephiroth's Supernova destroy the entire solar system, several times? How would they get back from the Big Bang?

C'mon... You know if I used an example like that, especially from that Summon from FFVII, you would grill me... Maybe flame-broil. But my grumbling stomach digresses. Sephiroth's Meteor Summon is clearly for dramatic purposes or an illusion like I assume Meteor is an illusion in Para-Magic.

I came across this problem too because "How does the target get back after flying into a ... Then I just starting watching noticed the clock and connected everything. By warping the target back with just a 'taste' of 'creation' it places it back whence it came without disrupting the timestream, and keep doing this with multiple targets. Time is funny that way.



I prefer the Time Machine, it makes more sense to me, but you have a good idea. For Love of the Widow, I wish I knew how to post pics on this thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mht4jHNT34g


You see how it warps gravity to bring the target to it's... uh... time-portal shooter-thingie? Warp gravity, you're screwing with time. Also, the clock animation and then when it forms that tunnel through space...


You prefer your theory, I prefer mine. Whether that is actual gravitational distortion or not is certainly up for debate.

We have come to terms.



4. Also, I wouldn't suggest posting PM messages because that's what they are Private Messages. I could do the same with all the hate-mail I get, but what's the point? It's just pathetic and petty.


Then don't refer to them, period. If you do so, by calling me "Pinnochio" again, I will present those for full viewing in the Eyes on Each Other forum, explaining that you agreed to it (because such name calling will be an indication to me that you want that discussion to be a matter of public record).

First, off, don't threaten me, okay. I only call you 'puppet' when I see you spit at me. And also you don't want to post PMs, because I did that once and got a serious repremand for that one. I could do that same with all the hate-mail I get but I'll just get warned or out-right banned. They're private messages, and that's where their suppose to stay. Now let's shake hands, hugs, kisses, get drunk, and have angry make-up sex, ect, ect, and peace unto each other until the next conflict: The Sequel (coming this Fall on Fox).



Explain further about Eden, because after this I wanna ask about Alexander next, The Holy Armageddon Machine.

There isn't that much to explain about this, I don't think.

I don't know you may be right, but I feel there's more and plus I like talking about this sort of thing.

[Skyblade]

Okay...

1. That doesn't look like a 'galaxy' to me. More like a massive black hole.


See the pic I attached. It looks far more like a galaxy than any picture of a Black Hole I've ever seen. Of course, even if it was a black hole, where did the Black Hole come from, if this is before the Big Bang?.

I don't see the pic you're referring to. I've seen and LOVE the show NOVA, and black holes are depicted in various shapes and sizes. And What I'm saying is that this 'galaxy' or 'blackhole' isn't before, the Big Bang, it IS the ENERGY that triggers the Big Bang. Originally the universe was a collapsed state of matter, as theorized, this I surmise to be that pre-bang energy. IThere had to be some form of matter there before it exploded and to it's current expanding state. I mean, if you claim that the Big Bang come from nothing then we're going to have to refer to God 'snapping his fingers' and saying "Let there be light". Also pluasiable but just hard to work into this analysis as we've detailed so far. Now, it also could be that we're witnessing the "Crunch" because the clock spins forward, but the 'gears' spin backwards till there is a "Cosmic Alignment". Forwards or backwards, I'm not sure, but I'm sure time travel to the Alpha and/or Omega is involved.


2. The 'runes' that you're referring to, have Roman Numerals on them like a clock. and it's 'gears' are going backwards to align with the Cosmic Alignment. Hence, why I mentioned the clock animation.


You're right, the numerals look like a clock. As to the backshifting you've mentioned, it's meaning is up for debate, but I'll grant that you have a reasonable interpretation of it, except that even if it is a time machine, it can't be going back to the Big Bang. Anyway, with any near relativistic speeds, temporal equations would certainly be necessary, so I could adapt that to my idea too..

See, NOW we're discussing, not debating. I see Eden as warping time and space. In fact, this could be a perfect visual aid for "Time Compression"... Nah, maybe not, but it does give a good representation of a timeline and 'stages' (the circle around the tunnel) through time itself. The beginning of the summons show's Eden in some sort of temporal distortion and it seems to be 'viewing' various occurences or events (be this current, throughout time when it's 'supposed' to appear, or whatever it's up for discussion) As I suspect that Eden is a quasi-techo-organic GF (which is strange for an entity of energy, but Eden is supposedly 'man-made') it maybe be already calculating pre-designated coordinates of 'when' it's suppose to appear next.

Also to reiterate, this makes me believe that this is the closest thing to a JME and it maybe the 'toy' that Odine was referring to. I personally don't believe the JME exist, but this is a strong notion I just got.



3. I don't know about 'using the entire universe' as a particle accelerator. Coudn't the kinetic energy of the rotation of the earth do that alone? Good idea though... But, also, how does the target get put back where it was taken? And if it struck a galaxy with that much kinetic potential, would it start a massive energy wake or create a huge galactic collapse, ergo a super massive black hole?


Actually, the results of such an impact would be difficult to calculate. The result that occurs, a nearly galaxy sized explosion, might be possible, but the result could be simply a supernova..

Hmm... You could be right, but it has been theorized that making a 'hyper-jump' in an atmosphere or near a planetary gravity well, could cause incredible havoc. Possibly a galactic chain reaction if your example is correct. Hmm....


As to how they get back, how does Sephiroth's Supernova destroy the entire solar system, several times? How would they get back from the Big Bang?

C'mon... You know if I used an example like that, especially from that Summon from FFVII, you would grill me... Maybe flame-broil. But my grumbling stomach digresses. Sephiroth's Meteor Summon is clearly for dramatic purposes or an illusion like I assume Meteor is an illusion in Para-Magic.

I came across this problem too because "How does the target get back after flying into a ... Then I just starting watching noticed the clock and connected everything. By warping the target back with just a 'taste' of 'creation' it places it back whence it came without disrupting the timestream, and keep doing this with multiple targets. Time is funny that way.



I prefer the Time Machine, it makes more sense to me, but you have a good idea. For Love of the Widow, I wish I knew how to post pics on this thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mht4jHNT34g


You see how it warps gravity to bring the target to it's... uh... time-portal shooter-thingie? Warp gravity, you're screwing with time. Also, the clock animation and then when it forms that tunnel through space...


You prefer your theory, I prefer mine. Whether that is actual gravitational distortion or not is certainly up for debate.

We have come to terms.



4. Also, I wouldn't suggest posting PM messages because that's what they are Private Messages. I could do the same with all the hate-mail I get, but what's the point? It's just pathetic and petty.


Then don't refer to them, period. If you do so, by calling me "Pinnochio" again, I will present those for full viewing in the Eyes on Each Other forum, explaining that you agreed to it (because such name calling will be an indication to me that you want that discussion to be a matter of public record).

First, off, don't threaten me, okay. I only call you 'puppet' when I see you spit at me. And also you don't want to post PMs, because I did that once and got a serious repremand for that one. I could do that same with all the hate-mail I get but I'll just get warned or out-right banned. They're private messages, and that's where their suppose to stay. Now let's shake hands, hugs, kisses, get drunk, and have angry make-up sex, ect, ect, and peace unto each other until the next conflict: The Sequel (coming this Fall on Fox).



Explain further about Eden, because after this I wanna ask about Alexander next, The Holy Armageddon Machine.

There isn't that much to explain about this, I don't think.

I don't know you may be right, but I feel there's more and plus I like talking about this sort of thing.

It's only a "discussion" if people don't disagree with you?

So you're saying you've been manipulating people to insult you, and then any time they do, you complain about it? It sounds to me as though you have no one but yourself to blame, so you STFU.

And I'll threaten you any time I damn well please. If you are ashamed of what you said, or afraid of how stupid it will make you look, you shouldn't have said it. Even if I'm not allowed to make a thread about it, I'll PM the full discussion to everyone who has been active in these threads, and then we can all make veiled references about you. So cut the insults and the arrogance, or suffer the consequences.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Okay...

1. That doesn't look like a 'galaxy' to me. More like a massive black hole.


See the pic I attached. It looks far more like a galaxy than any picture of a Black Hole I've ever seen. Of course, even if it was a black hole, where did the Black Hole come from, if this is before the Big Bang?.

I don't see the pic you're referring to. I've seen and LOVE the show NOVA, and black holes are depicted in various shapes and sizes. And What I'm saying is that this 'galaxy' or 'blackhole' isn't before, the Big Bang, it IS the ENERGY that triggers the Big Bang. Originally the universe was a collapsed state of matter, as theorized, this I surmise to be that pre-bang energy. IThere had to be some form of matter there before it exploded and to it's current expanding state. I mean, if you claim that the Big Bang come from nothing then we're going to have to refer to God 'snapping his fingers' and saying "Let there be light". Also pluasiable but just hard to work into this analysis as we've detailed so far. Now, it also could be that we're witnessing the "Crunch" because the clock spins forward, but the 'gears' spin backwards till there is a "Cosmic Alignment". Forwards or backwards, I'm not sure, but I'm sure time travel to the Alpha and/or Omega is involved.


2. The 'runes' that you're referring to, have Roman Numerals on them like a clock. and it's 'gears' are going backwards to align with the Cosmic Alignment. Hence, why I mentioned the clock animation.


You're right, the numerals look like a clock. As to the backshifting you've mentioned, it's meaning is up for debate, but I'll grant that you have a reasonable interpretation of it, except that even if it is a time machine, it can't be going back to the Big Bang. Anyway, with any near relativistic speeds, temporal equations would certainly be necessary, so I could adapt that to my idea too..

See, NOW we're discussing, not debating. I see Eden as warping time and space. In fact, this could be a perfect visual aid for "Time Compression"... Nah, maybe not, but it does give a good representation of a timeline and 'stages' (the circle around the tunnel) through time itself. The beginning of the summons show's Eden in some sort of temporal distortion and it seems to be 'viewing' various occurences or events (be this current, throughout time when it's 'supposed' to appear, or whatever it's up for discussion) As I suspect that Eden is a quasi-techo-organic GF (which is strange for an entity of energy, but Eden is supposedly 'man-made') it maybe be already calculating pre-designated coordinates of 'when' it's suppose to appear next.

Also to reiterate, this makes me believe that this is the closest thing to a JME and it maybe the 'toy' that Odine was referring to. I personally don't believe the JME exist, but this is a strong notion I just got.



3. I don't know about 'using the entire universe' as a particle accelerator. Coudn't the kinetic energy of the rotation of the earth do that alone? Good idea though... But, also, how does the target get put back where it was taken? And if it struck a galaxy with that much kinetic potential, would it start a massive energy wake or create a huge galactic collapse, ergo a super massive black hole?


Actually, the results of such an impact would be difficult to calculate. The result that occurs, a nearly galaxy sized explosion, might be possible, but the result could be simply a supernova..

Hmm... You could be right, but it has been theorized that making a 'hyper-jump' in an atmosphere or near a planetary gravity well, could cause incredible havoc. Possibly a galactic chain reaction if your example is correct. Hmm....


As to how they get back, how does Sephiroth's Supernova destroy the entire solar system, several times? How would they get back from the Big Bang?

C'mon... You know if I used an example like that, especially from that Summon from FFVII, you would grill me... Maybe flame-broil. But my grumbling stomach digresses. Sephiroth's Meteor Summon is clearly for dramatic purposes or an illusion like I assume Meteor is an illusion in Para-Magic.

I came across this problem too because "How does the target get back after flying into a ... Then I just starting watching noticed the clock and connected everything. By warping the target back with just a 'taste' of 'creation' it places it back whence it came without disrupting the timestream, and keep doing this with multiple targets. Time is funny that way.



I prefer the Time Machine, it makes more sense to me, but you have a good idea. For Love of the Widow, I wish I knew how to post pics on this thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mht4jHNT34g


You see how it warps gravity to bring the target to it's... uh... time-portal shooter-thingie? Warp gravity, you're screwing with time. Also, the clock animation and then when it forms that tunnel through space...


You prefer your theory, I prefer mine. Whether that is actual gravitational distortion or not is certainly up for debate.

We have come to terms.



4. Also, I wouldn't suggest posting PM messages because that's what they are Private Messages. I could do the same with all the hate-mail I get, but what's the point? It's just pathetic and petty.


Then don't refer to them, period. If you do so, by calling me "Pinnochio" again, I will present those for full viewing in the Eyes on Each Other forum, explaining that you agreed to it (because such name calling will be an indication to me that you want that discussion to be a matter of public record).

First, off, don't threaten me, okay. I only call you 'puppet' when I see you spit at me. And also you don't want to post PMs, because I did that once and got a serious repremand for that one. I could do that same with all the hate-mail I get but I'll just get warned or out-right banned. They're private messages, and that's where their suppose to stay. Now let's shake hands, hugs, kisses, get drunk, and have angry make-up sex, ect, ect, and peace unto each other until the next conflict: The Sequel (coming this Fall on Fox).



Explain further about Eden, because after this I wanna ask about Alexander next, The Holy Armageddon Machine.

There isn't that much to explain about this, I don't think.

I don't know you may be right, but I feel there's more and plus I like talking about this sort of thing.

It's only a "discussion" if people don't disagree with you?

So you're saying you've been manipulating people to insult you, and then any time they do, you complain about it? It sounds to me as though you have no one but yourself to blame, so you STFU.

And I'll threaten you any time I damn well please. If you are ashamed of what you said, or afraid of how stupid it will make you look, you shouldn't have said it. Even if I'm not allowed to make a thread about it, I'll PM the full discussion to everyone who has been active in these threads, and then we can all make veiled references about you. So cut the insults and the arrogance, or suffer the consequences.

Dude, you're making this a public rant and that's not what this thread is about... You and can disagree, but if you'll notice I did not 'totally dismiss your ideas' and I did it in a nice way. Definitely not in a humiliating and belittling fashion as the case often goes. I issued not initital no name calling, and no insults. I gave your ideas a benefit of the doubt despite your lack of evidence. I'm discussing not debating.

Now, if you post those emails, just remember I warned ya. You can't post them here because it's irrelevent and just showcases you as being petty to try and blatantly publicly 'embarass' me? Dude, please. And I'd read the FAQ one more time before you do.
Or as I like to say... "I told ya, stop hittin' the table."


Now we were getting along just fine a while ago... Shall we continue with that peaceful discussion?

Which one?

"Eden Is A Time Machine"

"Alexander: The Holy Armaggedon Machine"

"Para-Magic: Ilusionary or Physical Energy?

Or whatever other mysteries we have...

[Ryushikaze]

Actually, Skyblade holds copyright on all of the PMs he takes part in, so unless you two made some form of agreement to nondisclosure, he is fully within his rights to expose any or all of them he so desires, as do you.

Of course, attempting to find the meaning behind a battle mechanic is rather silly. Canonically, most battles do not happen. Heck, we don't even know if Squall can do the Lionheart out of battle mechanics land.

And PAK, that can't be the big bang. There is space outside of that galaxy, and the BB resulted in the formation of space and time as we know them.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Actually, Skyblade holds copyright on all of the PMs he takes part in, so unless you two made some form of agreement to nondisclosure, he is fully within his rights to expose any or all of them he so desires, as do you.

Of course, attempting to find the meaning behind a battle mechanic is rather silly. Canonically, most battles do not happen. Heck, we don't even know if Squall can do the Lionheart out of battle mechanics land.

And PAK, that can't be the big bang. There is space outside of that galaxy, and the BB resulted in the formation of space and time as we know them.

I'm not following you... Please explain. As I understood it, there are many therories... One of them, which I assumed was displayed in the animation, that there was a previous universe, or a condensed form space that exploded into the current universe. Kinda like another reversal of "The Crunch" But also, what do you think Eden is and the animation depicts Ryushikazie?

[Skyblade]

Ok, to summarize Ryu's post.

First paragraph: I am fully within my rights to reveal the contents of any and all PMs that are in my messenger.

Second paragraph: Battle mechanics rarely if ever hold consistency with the rest of the universe. Take Sephiroth's Supernova. In a single battle, he can destroy the solar system, and every planet in it, multiple times. You'd think that a planet can only be blasted to smithereens once, but it can happen many, many times. Take any spell or ability in the game. After using it, no matter how big or destructive the blast may be, the ground the enemy is standing on is never affected, and the battle area is totally unscathed by the end. So trying to explain what Eden "really" does is nearly impossible.

Third paragraph: The Big Bang formed space and matter, so matter (Eden's target) moving through space before the Big Bang is impossible.

Anyway, there's a lot of Big Bang theories, and discussing them will take us well outside the range of this topic.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Ok, to summarize Ryu's post.

First paragraph: I am fully within my rights to reveal the contents of any and all PMs that are in my messenger.

Second paragraph: Battle mechanics rarely if ever hold consistency with the rest of the universe. Take Sephiroth's Supernova. In a single battle, he can destroy the solar system, and every planet in it, multiple times. You'd think that a planet can only be blasted to smithereens once, but it can happen many, many times. Take any spell or ability in the game. After using it, no matter how big or destructive the blast may be, the ground the enemy is standing on is never affected, and the battle area is totally unscathed by the end. So trying to explain what Eden "really" does is nearly impossible.

Third paragraph: The Big Bang formed space and matter, so matter (Eden's target) moving through space before the Big Bang is impossible.

Anyway, there's a lot of Big Bang theories, and discussing them will take us well outside the range of this topic.

But that brings the questions was the target being pushed through space-time or time-space? I'm thinking it was space-time (or is that the other way around) like a warp/hyper-jump.

Hmm... one can transverse any amount of space given enough time is... time-space... Or...:frust:

[Ryushikaze]

Actually, Skyblade holds copyright on all of the PMs he takes part in, so unless you two made some form of agreement to nondisclosure, he is fully within his rights to expose any or all of them he so desires, as do you.

Of course, attempting to find the meaning behind a battle mechanic is rather silly. Canonically, most battles do not happen. Heck, we don't even know if Squall can do the Lionheart out of battle mechanics land.

And PAK, that can't be the big bang. There is space outside of that galaxy, and the BB resulted in the formation of space and time as we know them.

I'm not following you... Please explain. As I understood it, there are many therories... One of them, which I assumed was displayed in the animation, that there was a previous universe, or a condensed form space that exploded into the current universe. Kinda like another reversal of "The Crunch" But also, what do you think Eden is and the animation depicts Ryushikazie?

Neither of those would exactly work. Even assuming the cyclical model, during the period of crunch, there would not be an 'outside' as commonly understood. Of course, the crunch would technically only last an instant, as time would not really exist in such a state.

Eden is a Guardian force, and I'd assume that the runes (functionally identical to the ones that appear when Diablos uses his attack) are being used for targeting, given that the two sides align before the shot is fired.
If I had to guess anything other than 'guardian force' for what eden is, I'd say a space based death machine, and I do not simply say that facetiously.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Actually, Skyblade holds copyright on all of the PMs he takes part in, so unless you two made some form of agreement to nondisclosure, he is fully within his rights to expose any or all of them he so desires, as do you.

Of course, attempting to find the meaning behind a battle mechanic is rather silly. Canonically, most battles do not happen. Heck, we don't even know if Squall can do the Lionheart out of battle mechanics land.

And PAK, that can't be the big bang. There is space outside of that galaxy, and the BB resulted in the formation of space and time as we know them.

I'm not following you... Please explain. As I understood it, there are many therories... One of them, which I assumed was displayed in the animation, that there was a previous universe, or a condensed form space that exploded into the current universe. Kinda like another reversal of "The Crunch" But also, what do you think Eden is and the animation depicts Ryushikazie?

Neither of those would exactly work. Even assuming the cyclical model, during the period of crunch, there would not be an 'outside' as commonly understood. Of course, the crunch would technically only last an instant, as time would not really exist in such a state.

Eden is a Guardian force, and I'd assume that the runes (functionally identical to the ones that appear when Diablos uses his attack) are being used for targeting, given that the two sides align before the shot is fired.
If I had to guess anything other than 'guardian force' for what eden is, I'd say a space based death machine, and I do not simply say that facetiously.


Those runes are mystical and extradimensional in nature compared to the Roman numerics on Eden's 'runes'.

Diablos: Mystic Extradimensional Entity

Eden: Man-Made- (Technological ?)-GF

Isn't Time Magicks catergorized under "Forbidden Magicks"? Maybe that's why it was so secretive. But that's just an appeal to my position. If it's not a time machine what the hell is it?

It's so friggin' alien, it just makes you wonder what were they thinking? The "scientists" and game developers that is, in both senses.

I'll get to Diablos later he's another one of my favorites to pick apart. But I'm gonna have to stick with the time manipulation for me. It's the best explaination for me.


Is there anything more on Eden?

[Future Esthar]

What do think the clock animation represented?
Let me explain something interesting about this clock to you,PAK.
FH is on the center of the world,isn´t it?
And it looks like a clock gauge,doesn´t it?
The horizon bridge can be seen as two clock pointers on opposite directions.
During the Eden animation you see a clock over a planet.
At the center there is some triangle.
Why?
This is the same triangle you see on the middle of the transparent panel inside Esthar holographic walls when you select the "color check" option.
If you look at the world map you see that around FH there is an approximate triangle ocean shape.
If you try to insert the "color check" map over the world map aligning the triangles you will see that the six poligons divide the world on six different regions.You will see that no one can pass from one region to another on foot.That is because they are different eras.The vehicles used to pass from region to region are in fact TIME MACHINES.
Balamb Garden is a good example.
Since people think that Eden is some kind of Garden maybe you have a point on the Eden=Time machine theory.
However the Esthar region is an exception and will not fit inside the polygons.I will explain it later if you are interested.

[Ryushikaze]

Actually, Skyblade holds copyright on all of the PMs he takes part in, so unless you two made some form of agreement to nondisclosure, he is fully within his rights to expose any or all of them he so desires, as do you.

Of course, attempting to find the meaning behind a battle mechanic is rather silly. Canonically, most battles do not happen. Heck, we don't even know if Squall can do the Lionheart out of battle mechanics land.

And PAK, that can't be the big bang. There is space outside of that galaxy, and the BB resulted in the formation of space and time as we know them.

I'm not following you... Please explain. As I understood it, there are many therories... One of them, which I assumed was displayed in the animation, that there was a previous universe, or a condensed form space that exploded into the current universe. Kinda like another reversal of "The Crunch" But also, what do you think Eden is and the animation depicts Ryushikazie?

Neither of those would exactly work. Even assuming the cyclical model, during the period of crunch, there would not be an 'outside' as commonly understood. Of course, the crunch would technically only last an instant, as time would not really exist in such a state.

Eden is a Guardian force, and I'd assume that the runes (functionally identical to the ones that appear when Diablos uses his attack) are being used for targeting, given that the two sides align before the shot is fired.
If I had to guess anything other than 'guardian force' for what eden is, I'd say a space based death machine, and I do not simply say that facetiously.


Those runes are mystical and extradimensional in nature compared to the Roman numerics on Eden's 'runes'.

Diablos: Mystic Extradimensional Entity

Eden: Man-Made- (Technological ?)-GF

Isn't Time Magicks catergorized under "Forbidden Magicks"? Maybe that's why it was so secretive. But that's just an appeal to my position. If it's not a time machine what the hell is it?

It's so friggin' alien, it just makes you wonder what were they thinking?

I'll get to Diablos later he's another one of my favorites to pick apart. But I'm gonna have to stick with the time manipulation for me. It's the best explaination for me.


Is there anything more on Eden?

Yeah. It being the Big Bang is actually impossible, since you can see stars pass by, at non relativistic speeds (or rather, under c) come to think of it, as the foes fly into the other galaxy/accretion disc.

And Eden's runes are first identical to Diablos's, then we pan out to the triangle, then there's the planet shot, in which we have triangles and degrees, the latter which is matched on the other hemisphere by an identical and opposite moving degrees level, which align just before Eden fires. The numerals are actually rather irrelevant, it would seem, since they are only focused on for a second, and are not as vital to the process of firing as the locking in of the degrees layer.

Still, it's a giant leap between having numerals and proving it's a time machine.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Actually, Skyblade holds copyright on all of the PMs he takes part in, so unless you two made some form of agreement to nondisclosure, he is fully within his rights to expose any or all of them he so desires, as do you.

Of course, attempting to find the meaning behind a battle mechanic is rather silly. Canonically, most battles do not happen. Heck, we don't even know if Squall can do the Lionheart out of battle mechanics land.

And PAK, that can't be the big bang. There is space outside of that galaxy, and the BB resulted in the formation of space and time as we know them.

I'm not following you... Please explain. As I understood it, there are many therories... One of them, which I assumed was displayed in the animation, that there was a previous universe, or a condensed form space that exploded into the current universe. Kinda like another reversal of "The Crunch" But also, what do you think Eden is and the animation depicts Ryushikazie?

Neither of those would exactly work. Even assuming the cyclical model, during the period of crunch, there would not be an 'outside' as commonly understood. Of course, the crunch would technically only last an instant, as time would not really exist in such a state.

Eden is a Guardian force, and I'd assume that the runes (functionally identical to the ones that appear when Diablos uses his attack) are being used for targeting, given that the two sides align before the shot is fired.
If I had to guess anything other than 'guardian force' for what eden is, I'd say a space based death machine, and I do not simply say that facetiously.


Those runes are mystical and extradimensional in nature compared to the Roman numerics on Eden's 'runes'.

Diablos: Mystic Extradimensional Entity

Eden: Man-Made- (Technological ?)-GF

Isn't Time Magicks catergorized under "Forbidden Magicks"? Maybe that's why it was so secretive. But that's just an appeal to my position. If it's not a time machine what the hell is it?

It's so friggin' alien, it just makes you wonder what were they thinking?

I'll get to Diablos later he's another one of my favorites to pick apart. But I'm gonna have to stick with the time manipulation for me. It's the best explaination for me.


Is there anything more on Eden?

Yeah. It being the Big Bang is actually impossible, since you can see stars pass by, at non relativistic speeds (or rather, under c) come to think of it, as the foes fly into the other galaxy/accretion disc.

And Eden's runes are first identical to Diablos's, then we pan out to the triangle, then there's the planet shot, in which we have triangles and degrees, the latter which is matched on the other hemisphere by an identical and opposite moving degrees level, which align just before Eden fires. The numerals are actually rather irrelevant, it would seem, since they are only focused on for a second, and are not as vital to the process of firing as the locking in of the degrees layer.

Still, it's a giant leap between having numerals and proving it's a time machine.

No, the numerals are there other side from their conception to the point that they 'fire' and afterward.

I'll give a play by play of what I'm seeing inaminute. Waitaminute, I already did that earlier...

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I guess I'll just move on to Diablos...

The way, I see it, Diablos is an extra-dimensional entity that resides within a dimension that is so saturated with extremely heavy gravity or 'dark matter', that the very air (if any) is a dense black mass. It could be that Diablos resides either in the Dark Latern itself or in a dimension that is connect vicariously to the FFVIII world via the Dark Latern.

As Diablos is summoned from this dimension he sees the target, and hurls a "small" amount of the dark matter from his dimension unto the target crushing it with incredibly dense gravity.

I find this interesting because I ponder what else could survive in a dimension like that and is this connected to the Forbidden Time Para-Magicks like "Demi"...

[BG-57]

I had a thought that Diablos might be the messenger referred to in the painting in Ultimecia's castle (in the garden sleeps a messenger). After all, his attack is called Dark Messenger.

My original idea was that he actually represented the serpent in the Garden of Eden (which would link him to the GF Eden), but that's only a tenuous allegorical connection.

Someone else suggested that it would be simpler if the garden referred to was Balamb Garden. And I agree that it's far more likely.

BTW, you can edit your first post to include the stuff in the second post and just delete the second one.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Hmm... That's interesting what you mentioned about the "Messenger In The Garden"... hmm...

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

What do think the clock animation represented?
Let me explain something interesting about this clock to you,PAK.
FH is on the center of the world,isn´t it?
And it looks like a clock gauge,doesn´t it?
The horizon bridge can be seen as two clock pointers on opposite directions.
During the Eden animation you see a clock over a planet.
At the center there is some triangle.
Why?
This is the same triangle you see on the middle of the transparent panel inside Esthar holographic walls when you select the "color check" option.
If you look at the world map you see that around FH there is an approximate triangle ocean shape.
If you try to insert the "color check" map over the world map aligning the triangles you will see that the six poligons divide the world on six different regions.You will see that no one can pass from one region to another on foot.That is because they are different eras.The vehicles used to pass from region to region are in fact TIME MACHINES.
Balamb Garden is a good example.
Since people think that Eden is some kind of Garden maybe you have a point on the Eden=Time machine theory.
However the Esthar region is an exception and will not fit inside the polygons.I will explain it later if you are interested.


:eyebrow: :sweat: Hmm... I don't quite follow you on this "Color Check" you're referring to Future Esthar... I think you're referring to the symbols as gravitional points in the planet's magnetisphere that could warp temporal fields, right? Uh... I... guess... so?

[Future Esthar]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/Futuresthar/Colorchecknumb.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/Futuresthar/Worldmapandhexagonredblue.jpg

The firts picture is the image on the panel when you select the "color check" option.
The second picture is the fitting.
There is something I have yet to explain:
There weren´t gravitational warps.

The lines on the second picture are holographic walls similar to the ones on Esthar.These lines pass on places unaccessible by foot(usually the sea or rivers).
Cameras on these walls film the surrounding environment and transmit them to another era.The images therefore appears on the panels of the destination era.
Therefore,a person in one era will get a glimpse of the other era without realizing they are different eras.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/Futuresthar/Colorchecknumb.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/Futuresthar/Worldmapandhexagonredblue.jpg

The firts picture is the image on the panel when you select the "color check" option.
The second picture is the fitting.
There is something I have yet to explain:
There weren´t gravitational warps.

The lines on the second picture are holographic walls similar to the ones on Esthar.These lines pass on places unaccessible by foot(usually the sea or rivers).
Cameras on these walls film the surrounding environment and transmit them to another era.The images therefore appears on the panels of the destination era.
Therefore,a person in one era will get a glimpse of the other era without realizing they are different eras.


Okay, first, it would help if you explained what this "Color Check Option" is... Second, I don't understand how this would have to do with Eden's time-manipulation?

[Future Esthar]

If you played the game you would know what I mean by "color check option".
I pretty much explained the relationship on post 78.

Note that there is no relation between the polygons and the twelve symbols.

The relation is stablished by the triangle.

1-The pattern fit the map with the triangle in the middle.
2-FH rests inside the triangle.The FH-Horiz.Bridge set along with the circular distribution of the continents around FH resembles a clock thus relating to the planet-clock of Eden.

I conclude then that Eden is senting us a message about WOTC.
WOTC is the theory I derived from the pictures on my previous post.

[Ryushikaze]

Nevermind that this evidence is completely insufficient to support said hypothesis, could have a much more parsimonious conclusion, etc.

Plus there's the fact that your 'invisible time walls' can be traversed on foot. And yes, they can. Both by Laguna, and by the party.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Nevermind that this evidence is completely insufficient to support said hypothesis, could have a much more parsimonious conclusion, etc.

Plus there's the fact that your 'invisible time walls' can be traversed on foot. And yes, they can. Both by Laguna, and by the party.

Future Esthar, I gonna have to say that I, reluctantly, (just kiddin'), agree with Ryushikazie. But only on the aspect that your evidence and statements are 'insuffcient. You keep talking like everyone can read your mind. I don't remember what the "Color Check Option" was, I haven't played the game in a very long time; and I hate it.

1.You need to restate the subject of your hypothesis. You lost me on what you're trying to prove.

2. Please refer to any "evidence" or references as they were in the game. If you're talking about the "CCO" please refresh us on what it is and where/when in the game/story it was of importance.

3. Paint a picture for us when you're stating your hypothesis. If you're going to talk like we're reading your mind, you may as well play 'tour guide'. :D

So... From the top... Take TWO... (CLACK!)... ACTION!!!!

[Ryushikaze]

And for freak's sake, make your own topic, FE. Stop polluting everyone else's threads with your nonsense.

[Future Esthar]

Laguna and company used vehicles.Don´t forget the elevator is also a vehicle.

tHE cOLOR CHECK IS THE FIRST PICTURE YOU SEE ON MY POST.
Now using this information try to understand the previous posts(I will re-explain it if you don´t understand.

[McLovin']

The color Check was shown just before you entered the elevator that led you up to Esthar.

[Future Esthar]

ThanksMagus of Zeal

[Ryushikaze]

I'm not talking about vehicles, smeg for brains. I'm talking about the Esthar/ Trabia passage, the Timber/Esthar bridge, and the ability to ride chocobos between numerous 'divisions', or land on the small centra island you've divided and walk from north to south across your imaginary line.

[Future Esthar]

You have no evidence that Laguna get to Esthar passing the crater.
How do you know Laguna didn´t use a boat to get to FH?
The way Laguna goes from place to place remains a mystery because the dreams are allways local.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

And for freak's sake, make your own topic, FE. Stop polluting everyone else's threads with your nonsense.

Stop it. You know he as much right to be here as you. By antagonizing him you're not helping. His hypothesises maybe... uh... Well, maybe not the most unobscure, but, give him a chance to get it off his chest.

Besides, he's not polluting, he just wants to participate. If anything, with comments like the ones you just made, THAT'S "Polluting".

Now let's all play nice.

Future Esthar, what are you trying prove, and of what relevance does the CCO have to do with it?

The only clarity that I've gotten so far is that it's in Esthar. I'm trying to understand, but not explaining your else very well.

Talk to me/us as if we were NOT FFVIII fans/recent players... Neither of which I am.

[Ryushikaze]

You have no evidence that Laguna get to Esthar passing the crater.

Then how would YOU propose he made it to the passage which we have deliberately seen him in?


How do you know Laguna didn´t use a boat to get to FH?

How do you know he didn't? And it's irrelevant. I was talking about Squall's walking across the bridge.


The way Laguna goes from place to place remains a mystery because the dreams are allways local.

He'd get around like anyone else. With mundane vehicles. Since there aren't invisible walls of time across the world.

Concession accepted on the Centra Island.



And for freak's sake, make your own topic, FE. Stop polluting everyone else's threads with your nonsense.

Stop it. You know he as much right to be here as you. By antagonizing him you're not helping. His hypothesises maybe... uh... Well, maybe not the most unobscure, but, give him a chance to get it off his chest.

Besides, he's not polluting, he just wants to participate. If anything, with comments like the ones you just made, THAT'S "Polluting".

Now let's all play nice.

I'm not just referring to this thread. I'm referring to his history of coming into totally unrelated threads and spouting his conspiracy junk as fact. That, and his bad habit of saying "I addressed that in another topic".

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

You have no evidence that Laguna get to Esthar passing the crater.

Then how would YOU propose he made it to the passage which we have deliberately seen him in?


How do you know Laguna didn´t use a boat to get to FH?

How do you know he didn't? And it's irrelevant. I was talking about Squall's walking across the bridge.


The way Laguna goes from place to place remains a mystery because the dreams are allways local.

He'd get around like anyone else. With mundane vehicles. Since there aren't invisible walls of time across the world.

Concession accepted on the Centra Island.



And for freak's sake, make your own topic, FE. Stop polluting everyone else's threads with your nonsense.

Stop it. You know he as much right to be here as you. By antagonizing him you're not helping. His hypothesises maybe... uh... Well, maybe not the most unobscure, but, give him a chance to get it off his chest.

Besides, he's not polluting, he just wants to participate. If anything, with comments like the ones you just made, THAT'S "Polluting".

Now let's all play nice.

I'm not just referring to this thread. I'm referring to his history of coming into totally unrelated threads and spouting his conspiracy junk as fact. That, and his bad habit of saying "I addressed that in another topic".

So lemme get this straight... FUTURE ESTHAR is claiming that the lines displayed on the CCO are somehow geographical lines of temporal anamolies that transported Laguna throughout the world, hence explaining all of his exotic travels and explaining how he was able to penetrate Esthar's security from the world?

Am I reading the same book and pages now? Or did I miss a chapter?

[Future Esthar]

I already told you that the chocobos were genetically engineered and selled by a shumi named Chocoboy.
Also,that piece of land is rough and can´t be landed or walked.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I already told you that the chocobos were genetically engineered and selled by a shumi named Chocoboy.
Also,that piece of land is rough and can´t be landed or walked.

What the hell? Am I just rhetorically thinking out loud to myself here? What the hell are you talking about?

"Genetically Engineered Chocobos"... ...:eep:... Dude... WHAT?!!!! Seriously... dude... Where are you getting this from?

[jammi567]

Yeah, common, explain it to us.

[Future Esthar]

It is not that stupid.This chocobo is not an animal you found on random places and ride.
You find it on artificial circular shaped forests and are selled by a boy.
This boy was a possessed shumi which evolved.This is the boy who performed the engineering(he is an extension of Odine on the past).
There are also chocobos on Winhill.
Maybe the sacred forest was the true lab.

[Ryushikaze]

Evidence for this baseless assertion in three, two, never.

[Future Esthar]

lol

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

lol

Okay, here's what's gonna happen.

Future Esthar, YOU are gonna start over, because I've been up and down this board and nothing you're saying makes sense. AT. ALL.

First you were talking about the CCO, time travel and Eden being connnected, the suddenly, I Don't Even KNOW how "Genetically Engineered Chocobos" got into the mix... And for some reason that makes me think of KFC... SERIOUSLY. WTH!

Dude,... No one understands what the helled-horrors you're talking about except apparently Ryushikazie. If this is a topic that started on another board, take it back there. Or at least explain it enough so the rest of us know what hell this is all about! :frust:

Neither one of you (FE/RYU) is understandable... And it seem irrelevent... Interesting, but possibly irrelevent....

Please... Illucidate for us...

[Future Esthar]

PAK

We will go little by little.

A) FH is on the center of the world.
The continents seems to go around FH.
If you look at the world from the sky you will perceive a clock resemblance.A clock at 3:45(or 9:15).
FH will be on the center of the clock and the bridges sides will look like pointers.
Do you understand?Can you see it?
I will proceed after your answer.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

PAK

We will go little by little.

A) FH is on the center of the world.
The continents seems to go around FH.
If you look at the world from the sky you will perceive a clock resemblance.A clock at 3:45(or 9:15).
FH will be on the center of the clock and the bridges sides will look like pointers.
Do you understand?Can you see it?
I will proceed after your answer.


Let me try to be clear... I 'see' what you're 'describing' but I don't see where you're going with with this.... What's your point. You might, YOU... DO, YOU NEED to want to try opening up with a point.

Tell me the point of all this then go back to your... explaination.

[Future Esthar]

There is a relation between the Eden animation and the "color check picture"CCP.That is the point.
B) CCP fits the world map and has a triangle in the middle.
Therefore there is an underlying triangle on the world at the center
Considering the information given on the previous post don´t you see the relation?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

There is a relation between the Eden animation and the "color check picture"CCP.That is the point.
B) CCP fits the world map and has a triangle in the middle.
Therefore there is an underlying triangle on the world at the center
Considering the information given on the previous post don´t you see the relation?

Okay... SO they MATCH... Just what... What're you saying? What does this mean to you? What does this 'realation' mean?

And which 'previous post' are you referring to? I still don't see the connection to "Genetically Engineered" Kentucky Fried Chocobos. (I'm hungry)

[Del Murder]

Future Esthar, you have been warned about hijacking others' threads so please do not do it again.

Continuing this discussion will result in closing this thread, because it never seems to go anywhere. Actually none of the discussions about this game never seem to go anywhere.

Ryushikaze, don't be a butthead by calling people names. Please show some maturity. If you have none, fake it.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

G-Dammit Prez. Georgie!!! You can't even keep us safe from terrorist on EOFF?!?!?!!! Oooh, I am so P-Yessed right now!!!

But seriously. Anyone got another "mystery"?

[jammi567]

Ummmmmmm, forgoten if this is in the game, but where do the GF's come from?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Ummmmmmm, forgoten if this is in the game, but where do the GF's come from?

Nobody knows... But I assume their both quasi-sentient entities of energy and inter-dimensional beings.

I can only guess the reason they 'aid' the ones 'worthy' to defeat them is that since they exist as energy, they are possibly bound to their elemental planes and dimensions and experience memories from those that are junctioned to them.

It does seem a fair price to pay for awesome but brief power of a GF for it to take your memories away as pennance...

But that's just my idea of the 'balance' of the whole thing.

[jammi567]

ok. right. that helps a bit.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

ok. right. that helps a bit.

Well, I was kinda hoping you would tell me what YOU thought was the relationship between GFs and 'Junctioneers' as well...

I mean, honestly, the more I played this game and aquired more GFs, this seemed... well, "WRONG" to do this to these creatures. I felt like a Pokemon Hunter/Slaver... :(

What if there was a sequel to FFVIII, and it was the "Rebellion of the Guardian Forces"? LOL. Staring Mr. T as "Ifrit", Uma Thurman as "Siren", Martin Lawerence and Will Smith as "The Brothers", and Terry Tate as "Doomtrain".

[Ryushikaze]

ok. right. that helps a bit.

Well, I was kinda hoping you would tell me what YOU thought was the relationship between GFs and 'Junctioneers' as well...

I mean, honestly, the more I played this game and aquired more GFs, this seemed... well, "WRONG" to do this to these creatures. I felt like a Pokemon Hunter/Slaver... :(

What if there was a sequel to FFVIII, and it was the "Rebellion of the Guardian Forces"? LOL. Staring Mr. T as "Ifrit", Uma Thurman as "Siren", Martin Lawerence and Will Smith as "The Brothers", and Terry Tate as "Doomtrain".

Well, it doesn't seem like the GF are too terribly protesting. Several of them actually say "Impressive, my skills are yours" etc.
GFs are just another name for summoned monsters, and there are four basic backstories for summoned monsters.
1- Land of the Summons, where such monsters reside until called upon by a summoner. From FF4
2- A different land, of the Espers. In this world, summons are the crystallized conciousness of the Esper. Used unwillingly by the foe, but apparently willingly (those who you get to talk to all seem to be positive about it) by the party. VI.
3- Creatures of the collective conciousness, changing as people's perceptions of them do. Seem to rely on humankind for an identity, similar to the Discworld version of gods, which only become gods via humanity's belief in them. Eidolons without this sustaining lose form, like Ozma, the 'dead' Eidolon.
4- Creatures of dream, as created by the fayth/ extensions of the fayth themselves. Enter into contract with Summoners after the summoner proves themselves. Essentially creatures of memory, but not dependant upon others for their form or identity, such as the forgotten Magus sisters and Yojimbo.

Now, we know that GFs reside outside of the human or animal mind- Ifrit, Odin, Bahamut, that they can be drawn out and reside in of the minds of other humans or animals,- Carbuncle, Pandemona, Alexander, Eden- and that they gradually 'erase' long term memories by continual 'residence' in the mind of those using them, though these memories can easily be restored by simple reminders.
Based on all of this, I think the GFs are Fayth-like creatures, with the memory loss caused by their residence in the mind disrupting the pathways to the portions of the brain where long term memories are stored.
Beyond that, though, there's not enough data to come to any sort of appreciable conclusion.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

ok. right. that helps a bit.

Well, I was kinda hoping you would tell me what YOU thought was the relationship between GFs and 'Junctioneers' as well...

I mean, honestly, the more I played this game and aquired more GFs, this seemed... well, "WRONG" to do this to these creatures. I felt like a Pokemon Hunter/Slaver... :(

What if there was a sequel to FFVIII, and it was the "Rebellion of the Guardian Forces"? LOL. Staring Mr. T as "Ifrit", Uma Thurman as "Siren", Martin Lawerence and Will Smith as "The Brothers", and Terry Tate as "Doomtrain".

Well, it doesn't seem like the GF are too terribly protesting. Several of them actually say "Impressive, my skills are yours" etc.
GFs are just another name for summoned monsters, and there are four basic backstories for summoned monsters.
1- Land of the Summons, where such monsters reside until called upon by a summoner. From FF4
2- A different land, of the Espers. In this world, summons are the crystallized conciousness of the Esper. Used unwillingly by the foe, but apparently willingly (those who you get to talk to all seem to be positive about it) by the party. VI.
3- Creatures of the collective conciousness, changing as people's perceptions of them do. Seem to rely on humankind for an identity, similar to the Discworld version of gods, which only become gods via humanity's belief in them. Eidolons without this sustaining lose form, like Ozma, the 'dead' Eidolon.
4- Creatures of dream, as created by the fayth/ extensions of the fayth themselves. Enter into contract with Summoners after the summoner proves themselves. Essentially creatures of memory, but not dependant upon others for their form or identity, such as the forgotten Magus sisters and Yojimbo.

Now, we know that GFs reside outside of the human or animal mind- Ifrit, Odin, Bahamut, that they can be drawn out and reside in of the minds of other humans or animals,- Carbuncle, Pandemona, Alexander, Eden- and that they gradually 'erase' long term memories by continual 'residence' in the mind of those using them, though these memories can easily be restored by simple reminders.
Based on all of this, I think the GFs are Fayth-like creatures, with the memory loss caused by their residence in the mind disrupting the pathways to the portions of the brain where long term memories are stored.
Beyond that, though, there's not enough data to come to any sort of appreciable conclusion.


It's inconclusive, but you gotta admit, it's fun mind-boggle stuff.

This may get off topic, but I thought the fayth were the dreamers that sacraficed themselves to enter into a eternal sleep, and the Aeons where the physical manifestation of those dreams. Kinda like some people say, "When I dream, I am a Dragon..." But we'll get on that later. If there is anything to add...

If not... My next question about the GF summons is, illusions or physical manifestions... Summons such as Odin, Gilgamesh, and Shiva I think are physical manifestations, while others such as "Siren" is an illusion.

[Ryushikaze]

It's inconclusive, but you gotta admit, it's fun mind-boggle stuff.

This may get off topic, but I thought the fayth were the dreamers that sacraficed themselves to enter into a eternal sleep, and the Aeons where the physical manifestation of those dreams. Kinda like some people say, "When I dream, I am a Dragon..." But we'll get on that later. If there is anything to add...

Well, some, like Bahamut, seem to be both fayth and Aeon, though it seems possible for them to create entities separate from their conciousnesses, like Jecht and Tidus.
Of course, all of them are some form of Shinentai- will made form- using the energy charged matter of the farplane/lifestream for physical substance.


If not... My next question about the GF summons is, illusions or physical manifestions... Summons such as Odin, Gilgamesh, and Shiva I think are physical manifestations, while others such as "Siren" is an illusion.

Well, Gilgamesh is supposed to be the same Gilgamesh from FF5, travelling through different dimensions and timelines to find his way home, so he's completely 'real', inasmuch as he is as physical as the party members (I forget if he's canon or just an easter egg as it were). Odin's got to be real, given his cutting and being cut, as do Ifrit and all other GF who appear out of battle in some form or another.
As for the ones who only appear in battle, well, again, that's "only in battle", and battle has ALWAYS been the iffiest way to determine capabilities in an RPG.
Which GFs in particular do you think are illusory?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I totally agree with you on Gilgamesh and his connection to previous FFs, although I'm glad he's on the player's side this time... Sorta I guess... Do you think there's connection with FFIV as well? Definetely physical as was Odin... How else could Seifer have... y'know... Not wanting to give out spoliers. Noobs are everywhere... :shift:


Siren, I would imagine is illusionary given the origin of her powers, and the opening animation. (Yeah, I know the animation should be taken literally but I like to give the boys at Square some credit that they haven't lost their creative touch from back in the old days).

Siren status effect of 'confusion', and the visuals of her at Sea no matter how close or far you are from the sea, makes me believe that it could be a telepathic illusion projected directly into their minds. That's not saying that Siren doesn't appear, but the total effect is basically illusionary... Ya know what, I think Siren, just hit me, because I just got confused...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOl4d0kcQZA

Anyhoo... The other GF that's illusionary would have to be... I guess Doomtrain, but the more I think about the fact that it's suppose to be mystically tied to Solomon's Ring (another gift from Sorceress Edea), and it's 'ghost-like' para-normal nature, I'm kinda at a toss up. Obviously inspired from FFVI; It's a ghost, it could be both an illusion and a physical manifestation. And Solomon's ring requires ritualistic totems of sacrifice to be activated and summon forth "The Runaway Train of the Damned/Dead: DOOMTRAIN", I'm just not sure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BjQfr9ut8M


Boco The Chocobo... I don't really consider a GF, but it's there, so... I think Boco is illusionary. I don't have details of what it's attack does, or how it's obtained, but... I'm gonna go with mind-numbing cuteness that kills with love... Love Hurts...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRwYUFUG_1Y


Phoenix is another one that I'm kinda iffy on... To me it looks like the 'effect' of death is real, but the manifestation of the Phoenix is in the victims' mind. Kinda like Jean Grey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUIvqo1NLh8


Discuss amongst yourselves...

[Ryushikaze]

Well, Boco we know is real, and Chocobos have a similar effect in other FFs (notably FFT, in which is a physical, not faith attack, if I recall). Now, while I think that Doomtrain includes illusory elements, apparently he's been caught on film, so he at least exists.

Siren calls forth water and a small sea, but then again, Leviathan summons a mountain and a waterfall.

Phoenix is odd, because technically the pheonix could regenerate from ash in a fire, so it wouldn't be too odd for the bird to rise whole from nothing.

Now if any attack is largely an illusion, I would think it would be Eden's, given the extra-galactic nature of the attack and sub-c speeds.

Of course, it could be that they all involve pocket dimensions. I mean, we're already calling forth and arranging matter in most of them anyways.

[Qurange]

In my opinion, they aren't so much 'illusions' as 'exaggerations'. My support for this is that similar attacks have shown to be different in the same way between battle and CG scenes--in the Garden battle, many students use magic. It looks completely different. A few limit breaks (Fire Cross: No Mercy, Renzokuken and Rough Divide, and Ice Strike) are shown to be less flashy in CG, too. So, that's what I think.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Well, Boco we know is real, and Chocobos have a similar effect in other FFs (notably FFT, in which is a physical, not faith attack, if I recall). Now, while I think that Doomtrain includes illusory elements, apparently he's been caught on film, so he at least exists.

Siren calls forth water and a small sea, but then again, Leviathan summons a mountain and a waterfall.

Phoenix is odd, because technically the pheonix could regenerate from ash in a fire, so it wouldn't be too odd for the bird to rise whole from nothing.

Now if any attack is largely an illusion, I would think it would be Eden's, given the extra-galactic nature of the attack and sub-c speeds.

Of course, it could be that they all involve pocket dimensions. I mean, we're already calling forth and arranging matter in most of them anyways.


Siren and Levaithan I think are telepathic, but in the case of Leviathan, there is physical water involved, but just not to that extent.

Eden, being that it's a man-made experiement, is a temporal GF. A sort of quasi-energy entity, that is programmed to, as you know how my theory goes, send targets back to the 'Dawn of Time', "Genesis", "The In The Beginning", ergo Big Bang for lack of a better description as "Eden" or "Garden of Eden" is often referred to.

I understand the some if not all GFs reside in pocket dimensions, but some of them like Ifrit for example seem to reside physically on the same plane of existance as the "Junctioneers". Again, it's like you said in another thread, that the developers just got lazy, but I rather like trying to fill in the holes. It sort of inspires me of things that's missing.

I appreciate you discussing this. Anywhoo... Doomtrain... You're right, about being caught on film, but that's just fun because it's like catching a ghost on film. Probably should have made the mystery from the Magazine part of the 'hunt' for this GF.

Phoenix... You got a good interpretation of that summon. I just couldn't see it... It seemed to go either/or for me.


Now I'm not saying that the GFs that might be illusions, do not 'exist', but just that they attack the mind more directly or indirectly than the physical energy manifesting GFs.

Like Bahamat... That's a tough one for me. But we'll get to him later.

Boco, I had/have a problem with him being physical, because I wonder how he 'appears'. It's one thing to summon up Shiva, which is an energy being composed of ambient "H2O" molecules/energy... than Boco, a Chocobo which is a carbon based organism... Unless it's interdimensional like Gilgamesh/Odin/Pandemona and the like.