The Difference between Jrock and Visual Kei

[Kuzotz]

WEll a lot of females that claim to be Jrock fans tend to make annoying lil blogs about their favorite Jrock bands. None of which are Jrock bands, but Visual Kei bands.

Visual Kei groups are basicly like backstreet boys int he states. Except they dress up like girls.

Visual Kei artist mistakened for Jrockers: Gackt, Larc engel, Diren grey, Rolly.

Now I noticed that in these blogs of fangirls that claim to love Jrock never named a Jrock band like The Predators or Art SChool or High and Might Color or The Noodles or Acidman...

Anyway fangirls tend to go for the visual kei artist. While I don't care aobut this. The only thing that bothers me is that they're calling Visual Kei Jrock, and now Jrockers all over the US that's in highschool or college. IF they say they listen to Jrock like The Pillows,PRedators,Art SChool. They'll be called gay because most Americans don't know those name and they think its visual kei yet they dont know what Visual Kei is so pretty much the fangirls can call Visual kei Jrock which kinda pisses me off because The Pillows is't visual kei.

So yeah this is a naming problem

In short...

Visual Kei isn't JROCK!!!!!

nuff said.

so what you think ?

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

IF they say they listen to Jrock like The Pillows,PRedators,Art SChool. They'll be called gay because most Americans don't know those name and they think its visual kei"Visual kei" and "j-rock" are not in most Americans' vocabulary. This is a non-issue, man.

[MecaKane]

Yah man, wtf.
Asian Kung Fu Generation or bust.

[Aerio]

I am no expert of Jrock. Actually, I never listen to it besides maybe one song a friend sent me a couple years ago. However, to me it sounds like Visual Kei, or whatever, is a subgroup of jrock. You know, like how rock encompasses various variations, jrock included.

Sounds like another "everyone else is posers and I'm the only real hardcore person in the world" like most of the "Goth" and "Emo" threads.

[DK]

Mad Capsule Markets > *

[Kuzotz]

I am no expert of Jrock. Actually, I never listen to it besides maybe one song a friend sent me a couple years ago. However, to me it sounds like Visual Kei, or whatever, is a subgroup of jrock. You know, like how rock encompasses various variations, jrock included.

Sounds like another "everyone else is posers and I'm the only real hardcore person in the world" like most of the "Goth" and "Emo" threads.
Nope thats not what I'm saying.

I'm talking about genre mixes

Visual kei-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu-wTTpS2k0&search=gackt

Jrock(one of the many forms)-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2KC8jALoj4

Notice the difference in sound and style

Gackt's song has more pop influences though Artschool's style has more rock influences, Indies influences, and yeah they're an alternative band.

Though I can name a lot more other bands and examples showing a clear difference between Rock and Visual Kei.

So please explain how visual kei is a subgroup of rock when it clearly shows the influences of pop music that sounds familar to groups such as backstreet boys with the gimmicks of Prince.And even so Jorck fangirls who like visual kei think that EVERY SINGLE JROCK BAND IS A VISUAL KEI BAND. seriously though we need to educate people on genre and style differences.

btw sorry for caps that was just to drive my point into the ground, and not yell at anyone.

[Sylvie]

It seems to me like you're making too much of a big deal out of this. Theres really not that much of a difference between Visual Kei and J-Rock to me.

[Shiny]

Visual Kei is the look that alot of Jrock artists go for. It's nothing more than a gimmick to me. But, some artist use it as a form of expression. Some artists in America do this as well (although some don't realize they're doing it). Jrock is a type of music genre. Visual Kei really has nothing to do with sound.


Larc engel
:O_O:

[LunaticPandora37]

WEll a lot of females that claim to be Jrock fans tend to make annoying lil blogs about their favorite Jrock bands. None of which are Jrock bands, but Visual Kei bands.

Visual Kei groups are basicly like backstreet boys int he states. Except they dress up like girls.

Visual Kei artist mistakened for Jrockers: Gackt, Larc engel, Diren grey, Rolly.

Now I noticed that in these blogs of fangirls that claim to love Jrock never named a Jrock band like The Predators or Art SChool or High and Might Color or The Noodles or Acidman...

Anyway fangirls tend to go for the visual kei artist. While I don't care aobut this. The only thing that bothers me is that they're calling Visual Kei Jrock, and now Jrockers all over the US that's in highschool or college. IF they say they listen to Jrock like The Pillows,PRedators,Art SChool. They'll be called gay because most Americans don't know those name and they think its visual kei yet they dont know what Visual Kei is so pretty much the fangirls can call Visual kei Jrock which kinda pisses me off because The Pillows is't visual kei.

So yeah this is a naming problem

In short...

Visual Kei isn't JROCK!!!!!

nuff said.

so what you think ?


OMG thank you!....I hate Dir en grey and gackt...would you consider X japan visual kei...cuz i do...

and most visual kei bands...suck....a lot of them do...

I like some of the fashion when it doesn't go overboard but other than that is really dumb...

thank you again

[Zeromus_X]

So I'm gay for liking The Pillows? I'm totally lost.

[Kuzotz]

So I'm gay for liking The Pillows? I'm totally lost.
No The Pillows isn't a Visual Kei band.

So your kewl lol.

I'm jsut saying

Visual Kei bands are mis-represented. Jrock fangirls listen to nothing but Visual Kei(if they're form the US), and these girls will call Visual Kei as pure Jrock or Goth.

"Hello this is kitty katty podcast of Jrock now a list of my favorite bands: Dir en Grey, Gackt, Larc angel, Rolly, Hido, and Cherryking."

Note: I named nothing but Visual Kei groups, and trust me google Jrock and you get most of this <img src="/xxx.gif"><img src="/xxx.gif"><img src="/xxx.gif"><img src="/xxx.gif">ty visual kei fansites thats represented as Jrock as a whole.

Theres even a video on youtube that says "Who needs hicks in Jrock vids." YEt fails to even show other bands besides those crappy Visual Kei groups.

[Zeromus_X]

Well, I'm pretty sure most people aren't really gojng to know about all of that. ^^; People can like what bands they want, I don't think everyone else is going to go crazy.

[Kuzotz]

It seems to me like you're making too much of a big deal out of this. Theres really not that much of a difference between Visual Kei and J-Rock to me.
OMFG dude theres a HUGE difference man.

Visual KEi = power pop

Jrock= rock.(in japanese)

Jrock( this is a band that does alternative rock) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CecOUzlZyc&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7_QPW4lV1E

Visual Kei bands-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITGRZTHtiEw&search=Rolly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp5mexkGVUI

now honestly say you odn't see a clear difference in sounds between Visual Kei and Jrock.

[Kuzotz]

Well, I'm pretty sure most people aren't really gojng to know about all of that. ^^; People can like what bands they want, I don't think everyone else is going to go crazy.
Its really not about liking but its about people thinking that rock music in Japan is jsut nothing but crappy Visual Kei bands when this is far from the truth.,

Kinda like how agressive inliners try to get recognition when more than half the world doesn't even know what Agressive inlining is.

[Tasura]

Kuzotz, its not larc angel, or larc engel its L'arc en Ciel

[Shiny]

Visual Kei bands are mis-represented. Jrock fangirls listen to nothing but Visual Kei(if they're form the US), and these girls will call Visual Kei as pure Jrock or Goth.


I'm from the U.S. and I am a girl who likes Jrock. I listened to all types of music and it isn't all visual kei. Would you call Asian Kung Fu Generation visual kei? Nope. They're just Jrock. Please don't make generalizations.

[Moon Rabbits]

Visual Kei isn't a genre of music, as far as I know. I was under the impression is was a style of fashion to attract attention to the band.

And Dir En Grey is definitely rock music, metal, what have you.

[Tasura]

Visual Kei, literally "visual type", refers to a movement in J-Rock which started in the 1980s and became widely popular in Japan by the 1990s.

Visual Kei is characterised by bands using dramatic costumes and visual imagery to enhance the band's performance. Within Japan, the fan-base almost solely consists of girls and young women and is marketed strongly to that audience with items such as tradeable stickers, glossy photo-books, picture-postcards of band members and so on. In other countries, the comparatively small quantity of Visual Kei followers is roughly an equal division between male and female youth. Visual Kei is often focused upon in the West as a uniquely Japanese part of the Rock music scene.

Members of Visual Kei bands often wear striking makeup, style their hair in dramatic shapes (reminiscent of "glam metal" bands from the '80s) and wear elaborate costumes. Although the vast majority of the musicians are male, band members will often wear makeup and clothing which would be considered 'feminine' or 'androgynous'. Recently, some bands are returning to the more colourful and "fantastic" image popular 5 or 6 years ago, taking inspiration from computer roleplaying games and anime. The appeal of the costumes to fans is so great that large numbers of girls will cosplay as members of their favourite bands, particularly in Harajuku, at live concerts in Japan, or in Poland, North America, Chile, Spain and Australia at anime conventions.


Any band that uses flashy costumes could be considered Visual Kei, the popularity of the band rests more on their image then music. Look up a deffinition before you go getting mad at people.


The Pillows is't visual kei. According to that deffinition, and at least one MV they are


Visual Kei bands, being defined primarily by visual style, do not necessarily play a specific type of music. They most often play general J-rock (Luna Sea, Dir en grey) and vocal based pop or light rock (Glay, Gackt).

However, there are also bands playing or influenced by Heavy Metal (Sex Machineguns, Onmyo-Za, EZO - This, entered in US in 1987 with a Gene Simmons of Kiss produced record)), Darkwave (Velvet Eden, Schwarz Stein), Industrial rock, Punk rock and various other genres can be found. Taking the genre in a wide sense, most of the bands would be considered to play some kind of "rock" music. Particularly popular in recent years are the projects of Mana; Malice Mizer (now defunct) and Moi dix Mois.

Within the field of Visual Kei several popular movements have arose; the fashion style Gothic Lolita and the musical sub-genres; EroGuro and Angura Kei, which form particular visual styles.

Did I just prove you wrong again? sorry, it tends to hapen when uninformed people make brash statements like yours.

[Kuzotz]

Visual Kei, literally "visual type", refers to a movement in J-Rock which started in the 1980s and became widely popular in Japan by the 1990s.

Visual Kei is characterised by bands using dramatic costumes and visual imagery to enhance the band's performance. Within Japan, the fan-base almost solely consists of girls and young women and is marketed strongly to that audience with items such as tradeable stickers, glossy photo-books, picture-postcards of band members and so on. In other countries, the comparatively small quantity of Visual Kei followers is roughly an equal division between male and female youth. Visual Kei is often focused upon in the West as a uniquely Japanese part of the Rock music scene.

Members of Visual Kei bands often wear striking makeup, style their hair in dramatic shapes (reminiscent of "glam metal" bands from the '80s) and wear elaborate costumes. Although the vast majority of the musicians are male, band members will often wear makeup and clothing which would be considered 'feminine' or 'androgynous'. Recently, some bands are returning to the more colourful and "fantastic" image popular 5 or 6 years ago, taking inspiration from computer roleplaying games and anime. The appeal of the costumes to fans is so great that large numbers of girls will cosplay as members of their favourite bands, particularly in Harajuku, at live concerts in Japan, or in Poland, North America, Chile, Spain and Australia at anime conventions.


Any band that uses flashy costumes could be considered Visual Kei, the popularity of the band rests more on their image then music. Look up a deffinition before you go getting mad at people.


The Pillows is't visual kei. According to that deffinition, and at least one MV they are


Visual Kei bands, being defined primarily by visual style, do not necessarily play a specific type of music. They most often play general J-rock (Luna Sea, Dir en grey) and vocal based pop or light rock (Glay, Gackt).

However, there are also bands playing or influenced by Heavy Metal (Sex Machineguns, Onmyo-Za, EZO - This, entered in US in 1987 with a Gene Simmons of Kiss produced record)), Darkwave (Velvet Eden, Schwarz Stein), Industrial rock, Punk rock and various other genres can be found. Taking the genre in a wide sense, most of the bands would be considered to play some kind of "rock" music. Particularly popular in recent years are the projects of Mana; Malice Mizer (now defunct) and Moi dix Mois.

Within the field of Visual Kei several popular movements have arose; the fashion style Gothic Lolita and the musical sub-genres; EroGuro and Angura Kei, which form particular visual styles.

Did I just prove you wrong again? sorry, it tends to hapen when uninformed people make brash statements like yours.

First of all your the first person I ever gotten made at. First of all you tell me teh definition that I already alluded to earlier and then second of all you have a willingness to disprove me like its your holy duty to the internet god called Hriascht.

But seriously man. I already know this stuff.



Anyway show me some more sources beside wiki. Seriously man I've seen the definition o microchips on wiki......12 different versions of them...

one was like space dogs or something..

Anyway yeah Your on my ignore list. welcome.

[Tasura]

First of all your the first person I ever gotten made at. First of all you tell me teh definition that I already alluded to earlier and then second of all you have a willingness to disprove me like its your holy duty to the internet god called Hriascht.

But seriously man. I already know this stuff.



Anyway show me some more sources beside wiki. Seriously man I've seen the definition o microchips on wiki......12 different versions of them...

one was like space dogs or something..

Anyway yeah Your on my ignore list. welcome.

Im going by wikipedia and your going by what exactly? And wher did you allude to it? How are microchips and Visual Kei similar? Thats like comparing an accordian to an elephant. You said Visual Kei and JRock sound different, maybe thats because Visual Kei inst a genre of music, but you know, fasion, like aisle and the wiki both said, and the part where it says that



Visual Kei bands, being defined primarily by visual style, do not necessarily play a specific type of music.

You seem eager to force your opinion down other peoples throats but not listen to anyone elses.

Oh and about the ignore list, glad to be there.

[Moon Rabbits]

But seriously man. I already know this stuff.




Visual Kei groups are basicly like backstreet boys int he states. Except they dress up like girls.


If you already knew what Tasura stated, the latter statement contradicts the former.

Bottom line is that Visual Kei is not a style of music and is in fact a way to dress (the name even means "visual style"). Bright colours, eccentric makeup, loud and big hair, high heels and woman's clothing are pretty much what it takes.

Many bands (as stated by Tasura) use the concept of visual kei to attract fans to them based on their looks, and then capture them with their sound. Visual kei does NOT dictate sound.

And you know what is more annoying than the topic of this thread? People calling it J-Rock, it's just rock from japan >.< NOT ANOTHER GENRE.

[Mythra]

*agrees with aisle_s and tasura*. How one can call Dir en grey "power pop" after hearing their song (and maybe seeing the video) "Saku" from Withering to Death is beyond me.

[Tasura]

And you called L'arc en Ciel Visual Kei, and this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROFKiGiJ2-0&search=Ready%20steady%20go doesnt fit with your deffinition or the one it seems more people agre with from wikipedia.

Edit: I dont know why I keep posting if he has me on ignore =/

[NeoCracker]

All those songs sound like the same Genre to me, are subtypes of eachother or something.
Also here are some other links besides Wiki saying what Visual Kei is.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Visual+Kei
http://www.geocities.com/gatoranime/visualkei.html

So it isn't a music Genre, and Rock Artists can do it to. Techniqly even country singers could go Visual Kei. It doesn't seem too matter what kind of music you play, you can be visual Kei.

[Shiny]

Anyway show me some more sources beside wiki. Seriously man I've seen the definition o microchips on wiki......12 different versions of them...

Here is another source on Visual Kei since you seem to be confused about it. Here you go:

http://www.answers.com/topic/visual-kei

[Captain Maxx Power]

Mad Capsule Markets > *

Quoted for truth.

[Germ Hamee]

I'm going to be the fifth to say this, I'm sure, but...

Dir en Grey...

...not rock? I don't really even like them that much, but wtf are you smoking? They're much more "rock" than most of what you've posted about. Don't group them with Gackt because they're popular.

Listen to these, and try telling me with a straight face they're not rock:

Domestic Fucker Family
Zan
Berry

Yeah.

[LunaticPandora37]

i personally don't think it's the music or the visual kei..

it's the fact that people sterotype themselves and say shtuff like "I am jrock" (i've heard it before).

How can someone be a musical genre. You can't. (unless you/your band/whatever defines a new genre but that is different)

being a fan is accemptable, I like d'espairs ray and gazette and balzac(they are mainly punk though). I think its when fangirls and stuff just obess over it and don't realize that you don't have to be some androgonous(sp?) gilry girl man to be in a good band. I think that what Kuzotz was trying to address. becuase visual kei is a fashion statement and jrock is rock (supposed to be anyway, personally most of it just sounds like misfits woah-ing, untalented drummers, unessesary bassists [they do pretty much nothing in the songs i have listened to], and silly guitar riffs).

I see why fangirls annoy people but let's face it. They are everywhere. Just learn to ignore it or if you choose to rant about it. do a little research into the topic...

Kuzotz all the bands like dir en grey gackt larc en ciel...those were all mainstream bands/artists. you have been trying to tell people that isn't jrock or whatever and showing everybody UG bands, which is cool but the fact that you are trying to say that visual kei and jrock aren't the same is silly...we know they aren't the same. how could they be?

Thank you for your time..

~Nate

[Kuzotz]

i personally don't think it's the music or the visual kei..

it's the fact that people sterotype themselves and say shtuff like "I am jrock" (i've heard it before).

How can someone be a musical genre. You can't. (unless you/your band/whatever defines a new genre but that is different)

being a fan is accemptable, I like d'espairs ray and gazette and balzac(they are mainly punk though). I think its when fangirls and stuff just obess over it and don't realize that you don't have to be some androgonous(sp?) gilry girl man to be in a good band. I think that what Kuzotz was trying to address. becuase visual kei is a fashion statement and jrock is rock (supposed to be anyway, personally most of it just sounds like misfits woah-ing, untalented drummers, unessesary bassists [they do pretty much nothing in the songs i have listened to], and silly guitar riffs).

I see why fangirls annoy people but let's face it. They are everywhere. Just learn to ignore it or if you choose to rant about it. do a little research into the topic...

Kuzotz all the bands like dir en grey gackt larc en ciel...those were all mainstream bands/artists. you have been trying to tell people that isn't jrock or whatever and showing everybody UG bands, which is cool but the fact that you are trying to say that visual kei and jrock aren't the same is silly...we know they aren't the same. how could they be?

Thank you for your time..

~Nate

Fangirls think its the same lol that was all I was trying to say.

Anyway thanks man.........





Anyway show me some more sources beside wiki. Seriously man I've seen the definition o microchips on wiki......12 different versions of them...

Here is another source on Visual Kei since you seem to be confused about it. Here you go:

http://www.answers.com/topic/visual-kei



Members of Visual Kei bands often wear striking makeup, style their hair in dramatic shapes (reminiscent of "glam metal" bands from the '80s) and wear elaborate costumes. Although the vast majority of the musicians are male, band members will often wear makeup and clothing which would be considered 'feminine' or 'androgynous'. Recently, some bands are returning to the more colourful and "fantastic" image popular 5 or 6 years ago, taking inspiration from computer roleplaying games and anime. The appeal of the costumes to fans is so great that large numbers of girls will cosplay as members of their favourite bands, particularly in Harajuku, at live concerts in Japan, or in North America, Chile, Spain and Australia at anime conventions.
hide of X Japan, exemplifying Visual Kei image.
Enlarge
hide of X Japan, exemplifying Visual Kei image.
Bands

* List of Visual Kei bands

Visual Kei bands, being defined primarily by visual style, do not necessarily play a specific type of music. They most often play general J-rock (Luna Sea, Dir en grey) and vocal based pop or light rock (Glay, Gackt).

However, there are also bands playing or influenced by Heavy Metal (Sex Machineguns, Onmyo-Za), Darkwave (Velvet Eden, Schwarz Stein), Industrial rock, Punk rock and various other genres can be found. Taking the genre in a wide sense, most of the bands would be considered to play some kind of "rock" music. Particularly popular in recent years are the projects of Mana; Malice Mizer (now defunct) and Moi dix Mois.

Within the field of Visual Kei several popular movements have arose; the fashion style Gothic Lolita and the musical sub-genres; EroGuro and Angura Kei, which form particular visual styles.
Current status

Visual Kei remains as a diverse, ever expanding genre. Many of the bands are beginning to play outside of Japan. Bands such as Dir en grey, MUCC, Moi dix Mois, D'espairs Ray, Kagerou and Hagakure have toured Europe. Dir en grey and Moi dix Mois are planning 2006 United States tours, as their popularity has increased in recent times among fans of rock movements in that country.
External links

* J-Music Ignited: Visual Kei band profiles
* J-Rock Saga: Information on Visual Kei bands
* Nippon Project: Artists database,news,reviews,...

This entry is from Wikipedia, the leading user-contributed encyclopedia. It may not have been reviewed by professional editors (see full disclaimer)

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thanks for proving me right

I'm not complaining about the meaning of whats visual kei or not.. critics are critics and jsut want to troll.

I'm saying american fangirls of Jrock think that the only bands in Jrock are visual kei groups..
You digg?

[Sylvie]

Like Tasura said, it looks like you're trying to force things down our throats.

[LunaticPandora37]

Like Tasura said, it looks like you're trying to force things down our throats.

I do agree with that

[Tasura]

*feels honoured* And just so everyone knows, what Kuzotz quoted from Wikipedia, is what I used to show him that Visual Kei is fashion, it even states that in the quote, unless he deleted it so it'd only show what he wanted it to.

Edit: He didnt delete so the second paragraph of his quoting wikipedia proves him wrong

[NeoCracker]

I'm saying american fangirls of Jrock think that the only bands in Jrock are visual kei groups..
You digg?
Okay, that makes more sense when you put it like that. In which case yes, things like that can be a bit annoying, but nothing I lose sleep over.

[Shiny]

thanks for proving me right

How are we proving you right? As we've stated previously, "Jrock is genre, Visual Kei is fashion style." You said, "Visual Kei is power pop, and Jrock is Japanese rock." Although Jrock is Japanese rock Visual Kei has nothing to do with "power pop". If anything we've proven you wrong.


I'm saying american fangirls of Jrock think that the only bands in Jrock are visual kei groups..
There you go making false generalizations again without proof. If that were true some Jrock rock bands wouldn't be as popular as they are in America.

[Kuzotz]

thanks for proving me right

How are we proving you right? As we've stated previously, "Jrock is genre, Visual Kei is fashion style." You said, "Visual Kei is power pop, and Jrock is Japanese rock." Although Jrock is Japanese rock Visual Kei has nothing to do with "power pop". If anything we've proven you wrong.


I'm saying american fangirls of Jrock think that the only bands in Jrock are visual kei groups..
There you go making false generalizations again without proof. If that were true some Jrock rock bands wouldn't be as popular as they are in America.
Alrighty after reviewing a few things looking at Jrock fangirls sites.

I cna safely say they know its visual kei and clal it jrock and they know there are different styles, but a large number of them love visual kei groups because of the style, and fashion. MAybe the music.


Anyway yeah I'm not shoving anything down anyone's throat.

This is why we need like voice clips or soemthing lol.

Seriously I'm a fucking retard becaus eI'm a retard and I
'm stupid and I eat my own fecal matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11


rawr!!!!

[Shiny]

Alrighty after reviewing a few things looking at Jrock fangirls sites.

I cna safely say they know its visual kei and clal it jrock and they know there are different styles, but a large number of them love visual kei groups because of the style, and fashion. MAybe the music.

Show me these websites that claim that American fangirls only like Visual Kei artists.

[Kuzotz]

Alrighty after reviewing a few things looking at Jrock fangirls sites.

I cna safely say they know its visual kei and clal it jrock and they know there are different styles, but a large number of them love visual kei groups because of the style, and fashion. MAybe the music.

Show me these websites that claim that American fangirls only like Visual Kei artists.
Wow I never said American fangirls only liked visual kei.

I said american fangirls like visual kei bands.

I never said it was their only desires.

http://forums.cosplay.com/archive/index.php/t-25201.html

http://mishy-chan.podomatic.com/

http://otakubooty.bootyproject.org/op.asp?i=4177&tab=Pictures

http://thesky.immortalised.net/?p=35

http://forum.deviantart.com/entertainment/music/657481/

[Tasura]

I cna safely say they know its visual kei and clal it jrock and they know there are different styles, but a large number of them love visual kei groups because of the style, and fashion. MAybe the music.

They aren't different styles, are you blind, or just dont listen to anyone when they prove you wrong? And someone quote me so he can see this. And one last time VISUAL KEI IS NOT A MUSIC GENRE, IT IS FASHION

[black orb]

>>> lol, My fav Japanese band are a bunch of weirdos who use kamen rider masks!..
http://avexmode.jp/artist/riderchips/index.html

But they still ROCK!!!