In defense of Rosa [Archive] - Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums

*PaladinCecil*

07-15-2006, 05:33 AM

Because from what I can tell, it looks like nobody else is going to be fair to her without someone taking the time to go through her character and the storyline. Be aware, this is not going to be mere rehash of the obvious. It will push you to consider some aspects of the game in ways you may have overlooked.

SPOILERS throughout this post.

The first point I'd like to touch on is one that always bothers me because of erroneous assumptions of people who start playing the series further down the line. The argument I'm about to challenge: "Rosa is just a stereotypical white mage." Now, we all know that the white mage was first introduced in the original Final Fantasy. Trouble is, which Final Fantasy was the first one to give a white mage the "loving, caring" type of personality? That's right, Final Fantasy 4. The only other white mage in the series to have a personality before FF4 was a character in FF2 (I think his name was Mindu). When we get right down to it, Rosa is the very first character in the series to have the type of personality that is now EXPECTED of a white mage character in the Final Fantasy series. She did not merely copy someone else, she's the original. In my personal belief, I think this gets slapped on her because people who were introduced to the white mage personality with Aeris, Yuna, or some other FF girl don't take the time it was created in the series into consideration. Hey, if I wanted to be unnecessarily cynical, I could claim that people only do this to Rosa because they don't like the idea of someone with that personality coming before a character like Aeris. But that's being cynical.

The second topic of my post: "Rosa is just a damsel in distress." Let me ask you, how many times does Rosa need help? Twice. Once for desert fever and once when captured by Golbez. We all know Rinoa tops that, but let's look at the other characters in the series besides her. Aeris needs your help at LEAST four times: Don Corneo, escaping the church, escaping Shinra headquarters (you could really count this TWICE if you wanted to because they get recaptured and then must escape again), and the City of Ancients (where she dies before you can rescue her). Even if you cut out Don Corneo, that still leaves three other spots. One more than Rosa. Yuna? If I remember correctly, she's captured at LEAST twice (Seymour and the Al Bhed...there could be more that I've forgotten). Garnet: at least twice. At worst, Rosa is equal to these other FF leads as a damsel-in-distress.

This weaves seamlessly into the nature of Rosa's two instances where she needs to be helped. First: "Rosa could have at LEAST fought Golbez off when he captured her!" No, she couldn't. Golbez just annihilated half the party with one bolt spell. In one attack, Golbez took down the best Dark Knight in Baron, the best martial artist in Fabul, and the prince of Damcyan. What's a white mage going to do to a guy like that? The more time she spent struggling, the worse off her comrades would have been. Why give Golbez a good reason to kill Rosa and her comrades when Golbez has no intention of finishing the rest off as long as he gets her? This is a sign of intellect, not cowardice.

Second: Rosa gets desert fever. You already know the obvious defense of "it's a sickness, not like she could prevent it?" I have something better to think about: how do you think Rosa got out there in the first place? She doesn't know how to teleport. Nobody else accompanied her (and if they did, they died or deserted along the way). She crossed monster-infested lands alone, her bow and arrows her only attack. The fact that she made it to Kaipo is in itself a clear sign that she's more than just a damsel in distress. And unlike Rydia, she didn't have black magic to fall back on. Not only does this show Rosa's a strong woman, but it shows her deep love for Cecil. She risked her life traveling across land, desert and possibly mountain and must have faced hordes of monsters just to reach the man she loves.

And as long as we're on magic, let's compare the magic and attacks in this game real fast in terms of their worth. I'm not going to go into the character-specific stuff because that would take too long. Black magic can target all enemies and do a great deal of damage, but you still have a regular attack to fall back on for any mage characters. Just the same, you have characters that are entirely physical damage dealers. While black magic has its uses, it's not absolutely essential. When we move on to items, there are plenty that can function in the place of both white magic and black magic. But here's the thing: there's a limited supply of items that can heal ALL characters at once. And in this game, healing is an absolute necessity (especially against Zeromus). If you removed any of the damage dealers of the party, whether black magic or physical attack, you're still safe with the other characters. But if you remove Rosa, you're pretty much screwed unless you replace her or someone else with another white mage character.

Finally, we get down to feelings, both romantic and when captured. With regard to romantic feelings, many people complain about Rosa being "clingy." But here's the thing: her and Cecil have been in an intimate relationship for YEARS, and they've been close to each other since childhood. Now tell me, how realistic is it that you WON'T want to be near people you love after being around them for so long? The game makes it an obvious point that Cecil's distancing from Rosa during the early parts of the game are NOT because she's some crazy girl obsessed with Cecil, but that Cecil's the one with the problem. His Dark Knight class is slowly closing his heart off to all sense of humanity. And as for her pleas to be saved by Cecil while she was captured: what do you expect?! She's a hostage in a vulnerable position. She could be killed, harmed or raped at any moment, she wouldn't be able to fight back, and the only one that can save her now is Cecil. That isn't weakness; it's being human.

With that, I will point out two more loose ends and then leave it at that for now. At Mt. Hobs, you discover that you cannot pass until young Rydia learns the fire spell. This would be simple enough..if Rydia weren't traumatized by fire earlier. If Rydia could get over it with just Cecil and Edward, you would be able to melt the ice much earlier in the game. However, it's only after Rosa tags along that Rydia manages to overcome that fear. Thanks to Rosa's caring and compassionate touch, the party can progress. Rosa does not slow the party down from their mission by coming after Cecil. In fact, she becomes the second most important reason the party makes it to Fabul at all. And when the party went to defeat Zeromus, it wasn't Rydia that suggested they hide on the ship. If I remember correctly, Rydia didn't even put up an argument. It was Rosa who suggested they hide on the ship, then confronted the guys (including Cecil) for trying to make the women stay behind.

I realize that in my writing this rather long post, most people will brand me as nothing more than an overobsessive psycho who needs to "calm down." Some may even have the audacity to say "it's just a video game." But these are very real aspects of the game that have come from multiple replays and many thorough discussions of Rosa on various boards. With so much negativity levied at Rosa, I felt it only proper to provide a truthful and balanced defense for Rosa, the most underrated character in the entire Final Fantasy series.

Zeromus_X

07-15-2006, 05:38 AM

*PaladinCecil*

07-15-2006, 05:45 AM

Well, why are you acting like Rosa is always hated and what-not? I hardly see that around. :cat:* Yeah, she doesn't have much character on the surface, and just appears to be the weak 'omg save me!!1one1' damsel in distress character, so I guess that's the main reason people wouldn't like her. But I've never really thought about it anyway. People are allowed to like and dislike who they want. :cat: I actually hated Kain so much for being a manipulated stupid smurf*, but that's just me.

Edit: Okay, yeah that's a little too much detail. Nevermind.

*Please. Let's not start on Rinoa.

*Sorry, kain's_girl :(

People can feel how they want about characters, certainly, but I made my post because she gets a lot of undeserved criticism in many aspects of the game. If they don't like her type of character, that's one thing, but it's another to say she's just a whiny, clingy, weak "stereotypical white mage" when key aspects of the game and other games suggest otherwise.

And believe me, Rosa is always hated. In almost every case I've come across, she's either completely ignored or outright loathed. It's rare when I come across a group of people that view Rosa in a positive light.

Mirage

07-15-2006, 09:33 AM

Never had a problem with Rosa, and I didn't think of her as stereotypical or just another damsel in distress.

Sefie1999AD

07-15-2006, 12:21 PM

Let me ask you, how many times does Rosa need help? Twice. Once for desert fever and once when captured by Golbez.

And how many times does the party need Rosa to save them against Zeromus? I'd say at least 10-20 times, depends on how many times Zeromus gets to use Big Bang. So it's Cecil and others who are the damsels and misters in distress, not Rosa. :D I think Rosa's an alright character. She's quite useful in battles (I use white magic more than other magic, and she actually does quite a lot of damage with a bow when you use her Aim ability and good arrows), and she doesn't annoy me in the game. Not my favorite character, but a white mage is still a must-have in a party in FFIV.

auhin

07-15-2006, 07:10 PM

This is a great topic. I never noticed some of that stuff about her before.

Evastio

07-15-2006, 08:57 PM

THANK YOU SO MUCH *PaladinCecil*!!!! :D

I'm glad you're convincing everyone to stop hating Rosa. She's my 2nd Favorite FFIV Character. (Cecil is my most favorite)

I was going to start a "Why does everyone hate Rosa?" thread but I knew I'd be on the losing side of the argument. Besides, this thread is much better than a "Why does everyone hate Rosa?" thread.

If you don't mind I'd also like to state something else:

After the Giant of Babel was destroyed Edge was about to kill Kain for turning against them. (even though he was controlled by Golbez) Rosa was the one that stopped Edge from killing Kain. Not Rydia. A wuss wouldn't go stopping someone from killing a person. I'm not calling Rydia a wuss for not stopping Edge.

Crossblades

07-15-2006, 09:28 PM

I always liked Rosa as a character. I don't get why other people would hate her so much. But I'm glad a topic was made for this

Tempest

07-15-2006, 09:31 PM

*Sorry, kain's_girl :(
No worries. You're entitled to you own opinion. :D

I never thought of Rosa as a damsel in distress.

*PaladinCecil*

07-15-2006, 09:40 PM

THANK YOU SO MUCH *PaladinCecil*!!!! :D

I'm glad you're convincing everyone to stop hating Rosa. Rosa is my 2nd Favorite FFIV Character. (Cecil is my most favorite)

I was going to start a "Why does everyone hate Rosa?" thread but I knew I'd be on the losing side of the argument. Besides, this thread is much better than a "Why does everyone hate Rosa?" thread.

If you don't mind I'd also like to state something else:

After the Giant of Babel was destroyed Edge was about to kill Kain for turning against them. (even though he was controlled by Golbez) Rosa was the one that stopped Edge from killing Kain. Not Rydia. A wuss wouldn't go stopping someone from killing a person.

Thanks for the comments everyone :) . Also thanks to Evastio for bringing up that scene. Sorry if the following sounds like it's trying to "steal your thunder" or something along those lines, I'm just saying something else that comes to mind out of what you mentioned.

Rosa's interaction with Kain shows another side to her that's in plain sight but very few think about: her forgiving side. Kain betrays the party twice, and at one point kidnaps Rosa, but she doesn't respond to him with "screw you Kain, leave us alone, you'll probably just turn on us again later" when he returns to normal. She says "let's travel together." She understands Kain was a victim too, and if not for her involvement, that's one less ally that could have proven a powerful asset.

NeoCracker

07-16-2006, 02:11 AM

I just hated her. Not a lot, she just seemed like a damsel in distress as you put it. She I know you said that they are all like that, its just she seemed to scream "I'm a damsel save me!" more than the others.

OF course I didn't like Aeris either for the same reason, though I dislike Rosa more. And FF IV was my first FF, and she's really the only character I didn't like.

f f freak

07-16-2006, 11:03 AM

Elpizo

07-16-2006, 11:58 AM

I like Rosa. She is my favourite character after Rydia. I don't think she was a damsel in distress. I mean when Golbez took Rosa you can't blame it on just Rosa what about Rydia. She was there as well she could have summoned or something.
What? A big scary Chocobo to kick Golbez's @$$?
ANyway, nice topic. I never thought negatively about Rosa, I mean, she's so useful in battle. And FF IV was also my first FF with characters, I mean, I played DoS FF I and II but II's characters can't be conisdered deep, so bleh...
I will prefer Rosa over Aeris any day, but not over Garnet, because IX is my favorite. Altough I like Rydia more (green hair and a kid, I like kids who want to save the world), I don't think Rosa is bad and uninteresting. She was there and she did very fine. Final.

f f freak

07-16-2006, 12:28 PM

Yes Elpizo she could have summoned a chocobo to kill Golbez and make it the end of the game that early before you have half of the characters you get..

Elpizo

07-16-2006, 01:01 PM

Yes Elpizo she could have summoned a chocobo to kill Golbez and make it the end of the game that early before you have half of the characters you get..
I think that if Rydia summoned Chocobo, Golbez would be eating roasted Chocobo with the finest wine that evening in the Tower of Zot to celebrate Rosa's capturing. :D

Prancing Mad

07-16-2006, 03:40 PM

In most situations, I hate black mages. The only magic I ever want is healing, and stuff to enhance my warriors. I'd take haste, attack up, defense up etc... any day over a spell that'll cost a million mp to take out the enemy party. Rosa's not the best in my books and, definitely not the best White Mage to ever be in final fantasy but she isn't the worst either. Good post

Black Mage

07-17-2006, 02:24 AM

I always thought people hated Rosa because of the insinuation that she left Kain for Cecil while he was gone because Cecil had become a Dark Knight and therefore a higher rank than Kain. At least, I think that's how it went. Something along those lines.

That aside, I've always liked Rosa.

*PaladinCecil*

07-17-2006, 04:59 AM

Strange...I don't remember that coming up anywhere in the game script or character descriptions. Closest to that issue I've seen suggested is Rosa's mom not wanting her to be with Cecil because Cecil isn't nobility, and therefore "inferior."

Evastio

07-17-2006, 05:08 AM

Strange...I don't remember that coming up anywhere in the game script or character descriptions.
Me neither. Yet everyone keeps telling me that it's true. Personally I'm not going to completely believe it until someone links me to a site that's made from Square that says that.

*PaladinCecil*

07-17-2006, 06:34 AM

Or maybe it's a malicious rumor someone started because they don't like Rosa and want to make her look worse!!

Just kidding, of course :D .

Zeromus_X

07-17-2006, 06:36 AM

It's in a thread here, but I really don't remember where it is to link to it. It was also linked to in another thread where the same thing popped up.

Either way...can you deny Curaja spammage?

*PaladinCecil*

07-17-2006, 08:00 AM

It's in a thread here, but I really don't remember where it is to link to it. It was also linked to in another thread where the same thing popped up.

Either way...can you deny Curaja spammage?

Interesting...only two topics I found so far about it:

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=87810&highlight=Rosa+dumped+Kain
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=75535

I don't know if that FF4 guide exists or not and if it really says that, but from what I can tell, current canon is that Rosa never had a relationship before Cecil.

Zeromus_X

07-17-2006, 08:10 AM

A member called 'The Man' was the one with the book...or his friend had the book, whatever. I'll try looking for it.

Here it is:

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=75535

Sefie1999AD

07-17-2006, 09:16 AM

Here's some more about the Foundation Guide and what it says about Rosa and Kain.

Originally posted (http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=39535&page=2) by The Man
It's not mentioned in the script at all, actually, even in the Japanese version, so it's understandable that you wouldn't get that impression from the game. The only place it was mentioned, even in Japan, was in the Foundation Guide, which never got released here. I did a lot of research about it a couple of years ago, and apparently Rosa and Cain were dating before he left to train as a dragoon, but she broke off the relationship shortly thereafter. I'm given to understand the breaking off of the relationship was a product as much of Cecil suddenly having more power in the kingdom than Cain as it was of Rosa being lonely; in any case, she took up with Cecil at about the same time she broke off the relationship with Cain. I haven't liked Rosa much since then.

There was a really old thread that had further details that even I can't remember, but it's undoubtedly been pruned by now.

However, I did a Google search about the Foundation Guide, and I found nothing but posts by The Man, so I can't confirm whether the Foundation Guide really exists or not.

*PaladinCecil*

07-17-2006, 11:13 AM

One thing that crossed my mind in reading that blurb: if this were true, and one of the reasons Rosa left Kain was because he was away to train, why didn't Rosa just go after him like she did with Cecil when he left for Mist? Or alternatively, why didn't she just leave Cecil like she left Kain?

Questions that just popped in my mind :) .

f f freak

07-17-2006, 11:45 AM

I don't believe that. Rosa is far too innocent to do that. Plus she wasn't even in a relationship with Cecil. He pretty much ignored her in that scene where she comes up to the bedroom in the beggining. Well okay he didn't ignore her but he didn't speak to her much and I think if they were involved then there probalbly would have been more of a scene there with Cecil going away and all.

Roogle

07-17-2006, 02:13 PM

The books that are being referred to are probably the predecessor of what current Square Enix games in Japan have - the Ultimania Guides. They contain information not found in the original game and commentaries by the director, writers, and artists that designed the game and its world.

I don't think the title of the one for FINAL FANTASY IV would be called Foundation Guide. That is probably just a phrase or expression.

Captain Maxx Power

07-17-2006, 10:45 PM

Looks like I've started a trend of sorts. Again.

Darth Cid

07-18-2006, 04:15 AM

Zidane: Great stuff Cecil, reminds me of the time Garnie and I defended FFIX with our "Stop Whining" thread, Rosa is a good character in my opinion, what I don't understand is why people say sometimes she's useless, if memory serves, Holy/White was very useful against Zeromus and didn't take forever like Meteor/Meteo(no offense Rydia fans). Maybe, it's because CecilxRosa is my second favorite pairing with ZidanexGarnet being my first, but I get annoyed when people bash Rosa too, if memory serves, "badass" woman like Lara Croft didn't exist around FFIV's time so how could you expect her to be like that?

One thing that crossed my mind in reading that blurb: if this were true, and one of the reasons Rosa left Kain was because he was away to train, why didn't Rosa just go after him like she did with Cecil when he left for Mist? Or alternatively, why didn't she just leave Cecil like she left Kain?

Zidane: Amen to that!

*PaladinCecil*

10-20-2007, 07:20 AM

I don't know your site's policy on reviving dead topics, but with the DS remake on the horizon, I thought I'd bring this back up for reading. With any luck, people won't see these already-established character traits for Rosa in the game and call them non-canon simply because they never noticed these parts of who she is.

While I'm writing this, I have another rebuttal to a different claim made about Rosa: the claim that she's a wuss. This one's a little tricky because people have become accustomed to not seeing "gender segregation" as an issue in these games, yet this has a somewhat strong undercurrent in FFIV. Rosa's a noble and a lady; she's not expected to fight on the front lines, and that's actually somewhat discouraged in Baron society. The fact that she rushes after Cecil and stands firm in her conviction to stay by his side on the battlefield is more of a testament to her strong will and courage than she's given credit. It's easy enough for Rydia to go against the social tide; she ended up in the Land of Summons after a lot of personal turmoil, a place with an entirely different society from the surface world. Rosa, on the other hand, had social and class pressures bearing down on her everywhere from becoming a white mage to romantically pursuing Cecil. That, combined with her full willingness and desire to fight alongside Cecil even when he urges her to stay out of it twice, show that she's hardly a wuss.

I'm not saying Rydia's weak, I'm saying Rosa's stronger than she's given credit.

Here's the final bit to my new post. Before the discussion died out, we were talking about how someone called The Man went around posting about how some supposed Foundation Guide stated that Rosa dated Kain, then dumped him to rush off for Cecil because he was more powerful or had more status, something to that effect.

Since then, I found a guidebook translation online. It was put up December 12th, 2005.

Translation of Final Fantasy IV Documents on Settings Book/Settei Shiryou Shuu/Compendium/What Have You (http://home.att.net/~RCgamusic/ff4comp.htm)

Granted, the translator says he could have made errors, but I trust he did a pretty good job. Obviously, the most important parts for this topic lie in references to Rosa. It's also where I got some of my information for my argument in this post.

Rosa is one of the most talented archers in all of Baron, but she is renowned as much for her peerless beauty as much as for her skills with the bow. Many young men seek Rosa's affections, but it is Cecil with whom she is in love.
Being of noble blood and having a Dragon Knight for a father, however, Rosa is not thought of as a suitable match for Cecil, whose origins and parentage are unknown. Therefore, Rosa has kept her true feelings hidden within her heart.
Moreover, Cain is friendly with all the members of Rosa's family, and Rosa, who also lost her father when she was young, deeply sympathizes with Cain.
Rosa enrolled in the newly-established White Mage Corps, but even this action was prompted by her desire to be close to Cecil. Not much is said of her true powers in white magic at this point.

Cain -> Rosa: fond thoughts
Rosa -> Cecil: fond thoughts

What it boils down to is, the guide says that Rosa is actively discouraged from pursuing Cecil because of his military position and because he wasn't of noble birth. Kain, on the other hand, is someone that Rosa's family more than welcomes as a partner and husband for her. While she sympathizes with Kain, and could more or less have any man she wants, she only has romantic feelings for Cecil. That's not to say it's impossible that she dated Kain. For all we know, perhaps she caved to family and social pressure when she was younger and dated him for a while. The point is, her true love has always been toward Cecil, and it's been for who Cecil really is, not his rank or power.

Claims to the contrary, I've only seen made based off shoddy fan translations of the Japanese script that get used in roms.

Kawaii Ryûkishi

10-20-2007, 02:50 PM

Peter_20

10-20-2007, 03:36 PM

So they removed plot points as well?
*sigh*
I'm surprised at how extremely crippled the American version turned out to be compare to the original.

"Hey, let's remove special abilities, cut down the dialogues by 80%, replace healing items with t3h Heals, remove Summons AND remove backstories!"

WTF?!

Kawaii Ryûkishi

10-20-2007, 04:15 PM

You've misunderstood. It's not an issue of things being lost in translation; they were talking about things that weren't even able to be included in the Japanese version.

Peter_20

10-20-2007, 09:39 PM

You've misunderstood. It's not an issue of things being lost in translation; they were talking about things that weren't even able to be included in the Japanese version.Well, but still, I don't understand why the American version got so incredibly crippled.
I go off-topic now, but oh well...

Dr. Acula

10-22-2007, 05:56 AM

I don't entirely know why I dislike Rosa. I mean, she was a perfectly good White Mage even if I did prefer Porom.
However, in the game, to me anyway, it sometimes seemed like she was playing with the emotions of both Cecil and Kain.

*PaladinCecil*

10-22-2007, 05:57 AM

The developers of the DS remake of FFIV have stated they'd like to take this opportunity to introduce plot points that were cut from the original version of the game due to space and scheduling restraints. Hopefully, Rosa's backstory with Cain and Cecil will be one of them.

I've heard that, I'm really looking forward to the remake. I'm hoping it makes these parts of who she is more obvious for people who aren't into the game enough to delve this deep, or people who aren't keen enough to spot it out in the game itself before making judgment calls.

fire_of_avalon

10-25-2007, 06:43 PM

Never had a problem with Rosa. In fact, she's one of my preferred female leads. Much better than that Celes Chere. I pretty much agree with everything you've said.

Snap Jumper

10-26-2007, 01:38 AM

*PaladinCecil*

10-26-2007, 02:15 AM

Rosa is an important character in the second half of the game. If Rosa gets KO'd, it's not long before the rest of the party goes down with her. I just wish there was more of a need for her archery skills. BTW, was it ever mentioned how and why she learned to be an archer? If so, I missed it.

It's not mentioned in the game, and the guide doesn't say it, but I've heard that some other source says that noblewomen of Baron are expected to be defenders of the realm and learn archery for that purpose. I wouldn't take it to be 100% guaranteed true unless there's a source to go back to, though.

Takara

10-26-2007, 02:37 AM

Momiji

10-26-2007, 03:28 AM

I never knew anyone hated Rosa. Now EDWARD for that matter...great concept for a character, lame fighter.

Kawaii Ryûkishi

10-26-2007, 07:02 AM

I just wish there was more of a need for her archery skills. BTW, was it ever mentioned how and why she learned to be an archer? If so, I missed it.

In Japan, the bow has historically been regarded as a woman's weapon. And in Japanese fiction, it's been wielded by female characters more than any other weapon. So, for Rosa to specialize in archery isn't something that needs a particular explanation so much as it's simply a matter of fact.

ReloadPsi

11-07-2007, 10:34 PM

In defense of Rosa, she is a White Mage who does not die in like two hits.

There. Rosa kicks ass.

Takara

11-07-2007, 11:49 PM

Dying in two hits is generally Edge's job when he joins your party. :shifty:

Evastio

11-08-2007, 12:41 AM

Dying in two hits is generally Edge's job when he joins your party. :shifty:
I found that to be more true for Rydia than Edge. Edge has more HP and better evasion than her so he has the better chance of surviving.

Takara

11-12-2007, 03:44 AM

Depends if you bother with levelling. xD Rydia kicks Edge's ass when he joins the party everytime I play through the game again.

Yeah, I probably enjoy leveling up too much. But Rydia giving a painful preview of Armageddon to every monster around is kinda fun.

Avarice-ness

11-12-2007, 06:54 PM

So in defense of Rosa, I drew her going "Mmm.. Complex fractions are dumb" on my Algebra work this morning along with a chibi Edward going "BAD ANT LION" and a small Ant Lion and Cecil and Rydia being all "o o;".

I've read to much of the Power of cheese. -THAT- makes Rosa tollerable... the power of cheese..

Mmm...

*PaladinCecil*

03-16-2008, 06:31 AM

Posting it here since I don't want to hijack the other thread completely.

There's no applicable answer, because the subject of the question is all in your head. Perhaps take a few steps back from the fumes of whatever it is you're burning in sacrifice at the altar of a video game character.

No, it really isn't all in my head. I wouldn't be this spastic if it weren't for things I've SEEN looking around online. I've seen people claim Rosa dated Kain and dumped him for Cecil because she's loose for whoever has the most power in Baron. Worse than that, I've seen plenty of people believe it; I could be mistaken, but I think this very board is one of the places where I saw it happen. I know ffrepublic is one of them.

I've seen people call her clingy, weak, vapid, stupid and wimpy, along with plenty of other negatives. I've seen people say Cecil could have done better than Rosa (that came straight from the questions thread of this board), and representing the extreme end, one person saying they wish Rosa had died and Rydia had married Cecil. I've seen a select few hate Rosa because she's blonde. I've seen plenty call her a stereotypical white mage, ignoring the fact that she was the first white mage in the series with the personality she has (sometimes ignoring it even after being told outright).

And I've seen Square-Enix drop her like a pox on the series the moment they learned from the poll results at the Square-Enix party that Rosa's so disliked, she ranks fifth in the roster, just below Cid. I've seen Rydia get a DS kit strap, three variations of a wallpaper specially made for her, and her being the very first episode in The After to come after the prerequisite intro and Ceodore episodes. All while Rosa gets relegated to a bit part.

I've seen the badmouthing of Rosa and the incessant praising of Rydia. I've seen the thousands of pieces of fanart and fanfiction people write for their green-haired goddess, and the mere handful for Rosa. I've gone places, tried to point out her good qualities, had them shot down as fanciful imaginings of a rabid fanboy all while everyone talks about how awesome Rydia is for getting over her fear of fire (speaking as if she did it all by herself) or appearing just barely in the nick of time to save Cecil's party in the underworld (yet somehow, the fact that Rosa manages to keep Kain from killing Cecil in Fabul is inconsequential).

I'm a massive fan of Rosa. I'm not afraid to admit that. I'm one of a mere handful, too. But you know what? I wouldn't be this crazed if Rosa got even a sliver of the attention and respect Rydia receives. A year ago, I didn't care that Rydia was more liked, I didn't mind... then I saw the badmouthing, and the blatant disrespect, and Square-Enix dropping Rosa like a bad rash and hopping on the Rydia bandwagon. I've lost the appreciation I once had for Rydia, because it comes at the cost of Rosa getting any appreciation at all.

That doesn't mean I hate Rydia. She's a good character. It means that I have to hear about how much people adore her to pieces so often, and hear about how badly people hate or dislike Rosa so much, that I literally can't appreciate the things that make her a good character.

Someone might say this post runs the risk of making Rosa more of a character to steer clear of because nobody wants to be like "that crazy, obsessive nutso PaladinCecil guy," but nobody was going to start liking Rosa anyway, and she can't possibly be brought any lower in the eyes of gamers than people have already made her, so nothing is lost for the character by me making this post and saying these things.

Bottom line, if Rosa were actually liked and respected instead of put down most of the time, I wouldn't be thinking this way and having these feelings, and you wouldn't have to bear with this post.

This might sound like a desperate plea for more fan attention to Rosa. It's actually a rant, for a simple reason: it's too late for Rosa to get anything close to resembling respect for her as a character. The view of her as this empty waste of a character is sealed in the minds of gamers, and there's no changing it. I'm being realistic. Square-Enix doesn't care about her, and the people who already see her as a complete failure will never want to listen to a word I have to say that says otherwise to how they see her. So, on with the glorification of Rydia. That's all anyone ever wants to see or hear.

NeoCracker

03-16-2008, 12:28 PM

Well duh, Rydia's hotter. :p

Kawaii Ryûkishi

03-16-2008, 01:20 PM

You're overreacting. And possibly crazy.

KoShiatar

03-16-2008, 04:00 PM

It's not worth it reacting like this over a videogame character! She doesn't really exist. ;)

*PaladinCecil*

03-16-2008, 04:21 PM

Possibly right on the crazy part, wrong on the overreacting. Then again, aren't crazy people not aware that they're crazy? Must be a myth.

Women of Final Fantasy (http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall05/romans/ffx2.html)
Women of Final Fantasy (http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall05/romans/preff7.html)

Here, the writer says Rosa is the lowest of the low of portrayals of women in the Final Fantasy series as a stepping stone to saying how bad FFX-2 was. The second one is her specific article by this writer.

Final Fantasy worsts (Contains FF7 spoilers) - Final Fantasy Republic Forums (http://forums.ffrepublic.com/general-final-fantasy-discussion/23918-final-fantasy-worsts-contains-ff7-spoilers.html)

Here, The Man claims that Rosa used to date Kain and dumped him for Cecil because Cecil has more power, while at least one person backs him up. I did find a thread on this board where The Man posted the same claims, but I saw nobody backing them up.

KobayashiRiku on deviantART (http://kobayashiriku.deviantart.com/)

Here, someone else makes the same claim about Rosa as The Man, probably coming from him, which shows it's spread since he said it.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Wiki:Dragon's_Neck_Colosseum/Archive_V#Week_47:_Aeris_v._Rosa

Here, people make all kinds of false assertions and badmouth Rosa left and right as they vote for Aeris, while most votes for Rosa come from one of three reasons: she's from Final Fantasy 4 (or an old-school FF), she's tied to a popular character they actually like (such as Cecil or Kain), or they hate Aeris and Rosa's her opponent for the match.

Kishi of course.

Don't you think Cecil could do so much better then Rosa?

The above quote was from the never answered questions thread here.

Stay, a Final Fantasy I-VI fanfic - FanFiction.Net (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4058098/1/Stay)

I'm just adding the above for good measure. The writer sees Rosa as vapid, and then writes a story where Rosa leaves Cecil with no build-up then has Rydia pair up with Cecil. I might be too harsh on this one since it's a creative work and fanfiction, but then, I'm sure I'd have plenty of people hounding me if I wrote Rydia suddenly turning her back on her summoner roots and denouncing her mother with that same level of build-up.

I used to find a lot more, but now it's lost in a ton of basic coverage. There's also some sites that really put Rosa down, but I don't include them because the entire purpose of those sites is to badmouth characters while exaggerating their flaws. In other words, this is a small sampling of the huge array of things I've seen while trying to find Rosa fanart and fanfiction.

My loss of appreciation for Rydia isn't solely over her being more popular. What I wanted to get at, but never did, was that the way Rydia fans treat Rosa factors into it. A lot of Rydia fans say these things about Rosa, and often do it because they're trying to hype up Rydia and point to Rosa as what Rydia is not to make that happen.

Am I crazy? Maybe. Does it matter? No. I'm not protecting a reputation. Plenty of posts on this board make that blatantly clear, from the "worst character" threads where Rosa gets voted top to saying "Cecil could do better than Rosa" (by default saying she sucks as a character) to passive points like how a lot of people say Rosa is a worse DiD than Rinoa (as mentioned by Takara). I honestly don't care how pathetic or off my rocker I sound here. I couldn't possibly do more harm to how people see Rosa, because it's already so low that making her look worse is impossible.

And if I'm wrong? Prove it. Give me blatant proof that I'm wrong. Not one or two fansites (actually, one or two fansites is all there IS for her), or a few pieces of fanart (a nice chunk of which are because I commissioned them), actual proof that people see her as a good character. Because outside a few light comments about her being "okay" on the heels of me ranting about it, all I see is a lot of negativity and hatred sent her way, and its result is undeniable just looking at how little attention Rosa's received from Square-Enix once the company found out people didn't like her.

It's not worth it reacting like this over a videogame character! She doesn't really exist. ;)

I'm aware of that, and if things were different, I wouldn't be making these posts. But as it is, every time I try to do anything involving Rosa, I have to go through how so much better everyone thinks Rydia is, and how utterly horrendous and vile they think Rosa is. I've commissioned a Rosa and Rydia work, only to have most people focus on how great Rydia looks in the picture, with one or two remarks about some minor aspect of Rosa like her stockings. I've then gone on to commission Rosa alone (since I didn't want to repeat Rydia stealing the whole spotlight despite both girls having equal coverage in the picture), only to have someone come along and say the artist should have done Rydia instead.

You do realize how frustrating and annoying it can get to see that nobody likes Rosa at all, and everyone adores Rydia up and down every little way, when you're constantly reminded of the massive gap in how people see them, right? It's at the point where I wish FF4 was never remade for the DS, and I hope it never comes stateside, solely because I'm sick of hearing about how great the green-haired goddess is to everyone else and how awful Rosa is to them.

Which is a HUGE change from a year ago, since back then, I was overwhelmingly happy that Square-Enix was touching FF4 again and knew Rydia would get ridiculous levels of attention but didn't mind.

Edit: Dr. Acula is a prime example of exactly what I'm talking about. To quote once:

Because he has purple hair.

Why are Palom and Porom cooler than Rosa? Actually, why is EVERYONE cooler than Rosa? (And don't say she's a dumb tart, everyone knows that already.)

Edit by Kishi: Don't double-post.

Kawaii Ryûkishi

03-16-2008, 04:37 PM

This is the Internet. If I cared to look, I'm sure I could find people tearing into all of my favorite things, too. But I don't; and even if I saw them anyway, they wouldn't get to me. They're just utterances.

In other words, if you think Rosa is a great character, that's good enough.

*PaladinCecil*

03-16-2008, 04:55 PM

Sorry for double-posting.

This is the Internet. If I cared to look, I'm sure I could find people tearing into all of my favorite things, too. But I don't; and even if I saw them anyway, they wouldn't get to me. They're just utterances.

In other words, if you think Rosa is a great character, that's good enough.

Yes, but the critical difference is that you would also find at least the same number of people who appreciate your favorite things. For Rosa, it's a mere handful. And you seem to have this view that I'm going out of my way to find people saying bad things about Rosa. I only do that if I need to make my case to someone. When I'm not, I see it anyway, whether I want to or not. I search for fanart and fanfiction of her, weeding through massive piles of Rydia even on something as simple as a Google search specifically geared toward Rosa. And in the midst of that, I see plenty of badmouthing toward Rosa before I find anything positive (using the term VERY loosely; positive could be as simple as a half-done sketch) about her.

Hence the part where I ask you to show me proof that I'm wrong about the majority of people loathing Rosa and having it sealed in their minds that she's an abomination to the series. I can't find any, can you?

Kawaii Ryûkishi

03-16-2008, 05:11 PM

This was my point: Whether your opinion is unpopular or not, it's useless to complain about the fact that there are people who disagree with it. Of course there are.

*PaladinCecil*

03-16-2008, 05:26 PM

I know it's useless. If I thought there were any possible way people would actually give Rosa some semblance of respect, I'd still be trying to point out what makes her a good character that people never bother to pay attention to when they play the game. I know it's a lost cause, that she's doomed to be seen as a useless, vapid, empty waste of a character by people and nothing I say or do can change that. I at least have the freedom to curse the unfairness of it and say how much I wish people would get off the Rydia bandwagon long enough to give Rosa a brief glimpse and see that she actually DOES have good traits and she IS a meaningful character.

Rosa's seen as a complete failure. If I can't fix what's wrong, I can at least temporarily release the frustration by ranting about it.

Edit: Further to add to the point: it's unfair that everyone's all peachy keen about someone calling Rosa a dumb tart or a loose, two-timing power whore, but the second I say Rydia's not as emotionally strong as people say because she needed help getting over her fear of fire at Mt. Hobs, I'm chastised for it.

NeoCracker

03-17-2008, 01:31 AM

*PaladinCecil*

03-17-2008, 02:24 AM

Okay Cecil dude, first off it flatters me you were to quote my question in a thread made up entirely of joking around and take it so seriously. :p

Second, I enjoy many things that only a handful of people do.

Such as Paladins Quest and Mystic Quest. There are so few people who like that game, and Mystic quest is continually belittled as being on the the stupidest final fantasies. Doesn't make me enjoy it any less.

And For Xenosaga, everyone complains how the second writer ruined the story, while I disagree. Perhaps the original telling would have been better, but for the most part people hate on it.

Don't see me getting uppity about any of these things.

I wouldn't have minded it under different circumstances, like if I were a fan of, say, Aeris and that were said. But the critical difference is, Aeris actually has a fan community behind her. You could probably count the number of people that actually like Rosa on two hands, and your question just reiterates the bare truth of how people see her. If she WERE respected, would you have ever even thought to ask that question?

Regardless of if you meant it cruelly or in innocent fun, that it's thought of and posted at all while questions exactly like it never come up for Rydia highlights exactly what I'm talking about. Everything's one-sided. Questions about Rosa focus on her inferiority. Questions about Rydia focus on her superiority.

I know I sound ludicrously excessive and overblown in saying all this, that I'm making something out to be bigger than it really is. And you'd be right. A fun forum game about questions isn't a big deal. But I'm going on so long about it because hidden within what comes out when you play the game is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about here. It's so ingrained, you don't even think anything of the questions being asked, it's just what comes to mind naturally. Rydia is the best character in the game, Rosa is one of the worst (if not THE worst).

Edit: I'm not posting this to make you feel bad either. If THAT happens, I'm sorry. I'm posting because I'm ranting and pointing out what I see at the same time.

Evastio

03-17-2008, 03:25 AM

I guess I'll also let off some steam about Rosa's underratedness and Rydia's overratedness.

I'm also really sick all of the praise Rydia gets. Many Rydia fans bash on Rosa just so they can bloat up Rydia's ego even more. What even gets me more mad is people saying Rosa is ugly but saying Rydia is pretty and those people using fanart where Rydia's beauty is extremely exaggerated compared to what she looks like in the game. They make her hair so much longer than it actually is and make her much prettier than Square Enix really depicts her to the point where those fans practically made up their own character. It's one thing to lie about how pretty someone looks but using that to put down another character is uncalled for.

Also, using the argument that Rydia has a better personality than Rosa is also really biased. People always claim that Rosa is just a wuss and a damsel in distress while they say Rydia is so much more courageous than her. Rydia is also as much a wuss as Rosa seeing how she's afraid of even the thought of fire, she got knocked off the Fabulian boat first, and she starts crying over everyone that's died in the Eblana Cave. I'm not saying that Rosa is a better person than Rydia. They both are wusses in their own way and people who hate on Rosa and praise Rydia should acknowledge that fact.

One of the many reasons I like Rosa better than Rydia is because she's a more respectful and forgiving person than Rydia. Rosa doesn't mind the fact that Edge has feelings for her while Rydia hates him for it which shows that Rosa is a more tolerant and kind person than Rydia. Also, Rosa is really forgiving to those that offend her (like when Kain kidnapped her and almost had her sliced/crushed because he was jealous of Cecil) while Rydia isn't as forgiving (like when she attacked Cecil and Kain for unintentionally killing her mom). This shows that Rosa is a better character in some ways than Rydia. Also, unless the "before FFIV Rosa left Cecil for Kain" claim is proven to be true in FFIV DS I'm not even going to consider listening to that argument.

Sarc the Swordsman

03-17-2008, 03:31 AM

You've succeeded in convincing me to appreciate Rosa as a character more, though. Before reading this thread, I didn't really like or dislike her at all.

*PaladinCecil*

03-17-2008, 04:32 AM

Thank you for letting me know, Sarc.

I guess I'll also let off some steam about Rosa's underratedness and Rydia's overratedness.

I'm also really sick all of the praise Rydia gets. Many Rydia fans bash on Rosa just so they can bloat up Rydia's ego even more. What even gets me more mad is people saying Rosa is ugly but saying Rydia is pretty and those people using fanart where Rydia's beauty is extremely exaggerated compared to what she looks like in the game. They make her hair so much longer than it actually is and make her much prettier than Square Enix really depicts her to the point where those fans practically made up their own character. It's one thing to lie about how pretty someone looks but using that to put down another character is uncalled for.

Also, using the argument that Rydia has a better personality than Rosa is also really biased. People always claim that Rosa is just a wuss and a damsel in distress while they say Rydia is so much more courageous than her. Rydia is also as much a wuss as Rosa seeing how she's afraid of even the thought of fire, she got knocked off the Fabulian boat first, and she starts crying over everyone that's died in the Eblana Cave. I'm not saying that Rosa is a better person than Rydia. They both are wusses in their own way and people who hate on Rosa and praise Rydia should acknowledge that fact.

One of the many reasons I like Rosa better than Rydia is because she's a more respectful and forgiving person than Rydia. Rosa doesn't mind the fact that Edge has feelings for her while Rydia hates him for it which shows that Rosa is a more tolerant and kind person than Rydia. Also, Rosa is really forgiving to those that offend her (like when Kain kidnapped her and almost had her sliced/crushed because he was jealous of Cecil) while Rydia isn't as forgiving (like when she attacked Cecil and Kain for unintentionally killing her mom). This shows that Rosa is a better character in some ways than Rydia. Also, unless the "before FFIV Rosa left Cecil for Kain" claim is proven to be true in FFIV DS I'm not even going to consider listening to that argument.

I think you're being a little over-critical toward Rydia for the way she acts and reacts in the game, but you're nowhere near as bad as the majority of people are when they talk about Rosa. It's pretty unanimous among people that Rosa is a weakling and a wuss for not being stronger than the main character when kidnapped in Fabul and not being dumb enough to resist and risk having her beloved Cecil murdered for it (my points here might only apply to the SNES version; the DS version goes differently where she doesn't get enough time to react). It's also pretty unanimous among people that Rosa's idiotic, weak and obsessive for crossing land, mountain and desert on her own in pursuit of Cecil because she loved him deeply and wanted to make sure her beloved didn't DIE. AND, I might add, with her Desert Fever being the only bad thing to happen to her as a result of her journeying alone. If THOSE sentiments are acceptable, I'd say seeing Rydia as a wuss for being afraid of fire is fair game.

I see strengths in both of them. Back when people weren't so hopped up on praising their green-haired goddess at every chance they could, Rosa and Rydia were more like opposite sides of the same coin. Things have changed in the past 15 years. I see the good parts of Rydia, but I can't appreciate them at all anymore because of what her fans have said and done about her and Rosa. I'm not being stubborn, I literally cannot appreciate Rydia as a character anymore, even if I try. I see what makes her a good character and it's empty and hollow to me. I feel nothing for her but a passing acknowledgement of what makes her what she is.

You got the dumping before FF4 thing reversed, the person claimed she was dating Kain but dumped him because Cecil had more power and that's all she cares about in a man. Which is a complete lie, I've even found a website someone made to post up their translation of a guide that says the exact opposite: that society and family constantly pressures her to go for Kain because he's of noble birth and discourages her from pursuing Cecil because of his dark knight class and unknown parentage, yet her heart belongs only to Cecil. But, people love to hate Rosa, so lies are acceptable.

Elpizo

03-17-2008, 11:28 AM

While I can understand your frustration, letting that get the better of you when it comes to Rydia is just as bad, really.

I feel often the same when people say stupid things that are not true at all about FF III. I can't stand it at all how people give I and II all the credit, or see IV as THE game that did it ALL for the series when IV was nothing more but a compilation of all great things of I, II and III and barely did anything new. I hate how people underrate III's story and say it's an afterthought, while it's plot is right up with IV's and beats I and II's any day. I hate that very much, but what can I do about it? I fear I'll just have to allow people to live in ignorance and pitty them for their blindness. Same with Rosa, really.

I won't hide that I like Rydia more, but the thought that Rosa is a bad character never crossed my mind. IV was the 4th FF I played after FFTA, I and II. All of its characters were refreshing and new to me and I could enjoy them all very much, including Rosa. I just like children more in RPGs for some reason, and that's what Rydia is in the beginning of the game. Me liking her decreased a bit when she came back as an adult, bringing her on the same level as Rosa. And Rosa's nowhere near on a low level with me. Personally, I have more problems with Aeris or Yuna.

Just, don't let people's ignorance make you do things. Apparently you can't enjoy Rydia anymore because she's popular. That's a popular thing to do these days, hating things because they are popular. FF VII suffers from it, and Rydia suffers from it from you. Not good.

*PaladinCecil*

03-17-2008, 06:23 PM

I don't hate Rydia. I can't appreciate what makes her a good character anymore. They're different. It's also not that Rydia's popular, not directly. It's that Rydia fans go on endlessly about how great she is, a large chunk of them intentionally ignoring or badmouthing Rosa while they build Rydia up as better than she really is, and Square-Enix is seeing the error of their ways in giving Rosa such focus at the beginning of their advertising for FF4 on the DS and have switched gears to Rydia now that they know better. Everyone's happy, Rydia gets to be flaunted and used while everyone (including the company that created these characters) brushes Rosa off to the side.

I wouldn't be so bothered if:

1) Rosa actually had a reasonable level of respect. Aeris and Tifa get bashed by people, but they at least have fan communities behind them. The same goes for Rinoa. Rosa has absolutely nothing. Usually, the best she gets is passing acceptance and acknowledgement of her existence in the game. Rydia takes all the spotlight, even when they're in a picture together and take up the same amount of space. It's hard to appreciate a character when people try to beat their own appreciation of that character into you constantly and refuse to look deeper into a character YOU appreciate, content in seeing that character as a complete failure.

2) If Square-Enix weren't catering to this heavy amount of fandom people have for Rydia so shamelessly. It's bad enough that the fans won't let up, now the company's set for the same path too.

I'm assuming you're talking about the remake version of FF3. Here's the critical difference. People DO appreciate that game. I see plenty of art being made of Refia (who, as a full-fledged character, didn't exist until 2-3 years ago.. and she already has a LOT, probably as much as Rosa or more), topics discussing it, etc. What I don't see is plenty of art being made for Rosa, and topics discussing her other than ones that talk about what she can do in gameplay or talking about how much people think she sucks. Yes, there's art. The only reason people know about it is because I went searching for it and found it several years after the fact, all alongside Rydia art that's been heavily circulated ever since it was made.

That's how bad it is. When people say something bad about her as a character, I rarely see someone speak up to say otherwise. When art is made for her, nobody touches it for as many as eight years. She's been repeatedly denounced as a bane on the series and a terrible depiction both of FF female leads and of female characters in general. I WANT people to look at her and not have their ONLY appreciation for her coming from being able to cast spells on the party or the fact that she has boobs.

I'm crazed, I know, but I wouldn't be this way if several months trying to point out that Rosa's a good character TOO didn't make it painfully obvious that the majority of people don't want to see the good things about Rosa. I'm sure I should be letting it lie, but part of me can't. Maybe it's because this is the closest people will ever get to thinking about her differently for more than five seconds, maybe it's because I spent months trying to show what's good about her and I'm compensating for an effort that was doomed to fail all along, I don't know. All I really know is that the way Rosa and Rydia are treated so differently, like Rosa's one of the worst things to ever come out of a Final Fantasy game and Rydia is one of the best, upsets me, and knowing there's nothing I can do to change what's firmly and unshakeably embedded in the minds of gamers makes it worse.

I'm at the point where I honestly don't want this game to come stateside because I know it'll just bring more overhyping and praise of Rydia (and in the midst of that, putting down of Rosa), and that I fully expect Rosa to die in The After because with Rosa so unpopular, they'd want to get rid of her, and that would be a prime way to do it while adding more depth and motivation to characters that people actually like.

Elpizo

03-17-2008, 06:45 PM

No, I wasn't talking about III DS. I was talking about III in general. Also, I barely find any fanart for Refia, find any respect for Refia either. Refia's always described as the typical spunky FF girl. Joy.

And in general, you're getting too worked up over this. Go outside, take a hatchet and start mashing some things down. Print out milions of pictures of Rydia and destroy them in all ways possible if it makes you feel better. You'll have to deal with it unfortunately. Letting of steam in a civilized topic is good, but I do think you're coming close to being paranoid about this matter. And that my friend, is not healthy.

Also, point remains standing: you don't like Rydia anymore because fans shove her in front of Rosa. That's wrong. Tell me when Rydia ever asked for this and I'll be a happy person. Rydia's done nothing to deserve your dislike for her.

I also don't really want IV DS in english anymore, but that's because I think the game's crappy (though I hoped it would be otherwise).

Roogle

03-18-2008, 10:50 PM

I think that Rosa will have a better chance to shine in Final Fantasy IV: The After.

It is important to note that she is perceived helpless mainly because she is not an aggressive character by any means, yet many fans tend to overlook that she is not simply a pushover. I hope that the localization of Final Fantasy IV DS enlightens fans on her personality and demeanor.

It can be difficult to like an underrated character, *PaladinCecil*, but at least you've done your research —

*PaladinCecil*

06-19-2008, 03:18 AM

Thanks Roogle. I'm sort of bringing this post back from the dead by replying, but I feel that given the most recent topic posted by someone where they essentially bashed Rosa, it's important that I bring it back up. Plus, I actually do want to respond to you.

Recent stories and doujins have me upset. It sounds petty, but it's because of the way they portray Rosa so they can boost Rydia on a higher pedestal. In the fanfic I read, the writer tried to justify a relationship between Cecil and Rydia by having Rosa just suddenly leave out of the blue, no development or reasoning whatsoever except that she supposedly wanted to become the new Elder of Mysidia in the fashion of becoming a nun. Which makes absolutely no sense because the game makes it blatant that she's highly devoted to Cecil to the point she would travel any distance and risk her life out of love for him.

The doujins bothered me more. Both were of Rydia paired with Cecil, and in each, the artist portrayed Rydia as the "pure and innocent" type as she.. err.. copulates with Cecil. I don't have issue with the portrayal of Rydia here because her being pure and innocent is accurate, although a relationship between her and Cecil just would NOT happen. What really bothers me here: in both, Rosa is portrayed as a shameless slut, the type of women that loves sex, has no concept of good manners about the topic, and will do it with anyone. One involved her sleeping with Kain on the sly (only for a few panels, so they could justify Rydia and Cecil together without Rydia looking villainous for it) and the other had Rosa play the role of the devious, salacious slut that corrupts the pure, innocent Rydia into the act.

Neither one of these are Rosa at all. And it wouldn't bother me so much, if not for how readily people had believed The Man when he claimed Rosa used to date Kain but dumped him for Cecil because she's, saying it crassly, loose for whoever has more power and respect.

I'm quite seriously and honestly expecting that a year from now, majority opinion will be that Rosa is a shameless slut, and that Rydia has all of her traits PLUS all of the traits Rosa actually DOES have.

Maybe I'm being a bit delusional or neurotic, that's possible, but after a year of seeing things seemingly only get worse in regards to how people see her, despite all my attempts to get people to see her for who she really is (ignoring any parts of what I say that make her out to be MORE than she really is, which can happen from time to time), I really have no faith in people to know the difference between who Rosa really is and what's just a horrible mutilation of everything she is by some zealous Rydia fanboy or Rosa hater.

Tamagon

07-02-2008, 05:43 AM

Both are pretty http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifty characters.

Also PaladinCecil, I do not know how you would find those doujins, because I looked in the obscurest of the obscurest hentai sites, and I could not find anything you described.

I only found one, and I just skipped to the last page, and I deleted it after I saw Cecil said "Yo Rydia"

Ever since then, I can't help but imagine Cecil as a gangsta.

Edit: Up yours censors D:

*PaladinCecil*

07-03-2008, 06:21 AM

NeoCracker

07-03-2008, 09:43 AM

Can't this thread just die now?

*PaladinCecil*

07-03-2008, 05:56 PM

Can't this thread just die now?

Why? A recent thread kinda shows that it would be useful to keep it around to some extent.

Karellen

07-03-2008, 06:08 PM

The thing is everything that can possibly be said on the subject has pretty much been said and you continually reviving it from reasons that range from people saying bad things about Rosa on a message board to Rosa being portrayed negatively in porn has become more then a little unseemly.

*PaladinCecil*

07-04-2008, 05:31 AM

The thing is everything that can possibly be said on the subject has pretty much been said

And yet, a recent thread about Rosa boils down to being essentially the same topic as this one, just from the viewpoint I'm arguing against. Not only will maintaining this thread prevent repeat threads that all boil down to "I don't like Rosa" (since that would be something easily discussed here), it also means that points and arguments that people have don't need to be repeated in thread after thread because they're in fewer locations.

and you continually reviving it from reasons that range from people saying bad things about Rosa on a message board to Rosa being portrayed negatively in porn has become more then a little unseemly.

I've seen tons of badmouthing of the character while looking around online, far outweighing any praise she gets (which is typically limited only to healing she gets, and many are quick to discount her for that by mentioning Porom). There's what you've seen here (the porn, the lying about what some supposed foundation guide that nobody could see says about her, etc), there's people who have spun moments of hers into negatives (for example, suggesting she bullied Rydia on Mt. Hobs rather than providing needed comfort), having this around presents arguments in her favor before others can say bad things.

This might seem meaningless to you, but look at that other Rosa topic for a second. Nobody, NOBODY came to her defense before I looked here again, it was all "yeah, Rosa sucks!" If I hadn't checked back in, that would've passed right on by, as it always does unless I say something. That alone shows reason for this thread to persist, because if I'm not raising a voice in her favor, who WILL?

EDIT: The complaints about her portrayal in porn sound pointless too, I fully understand. If the situation were different, I'd be with you. Here's the thing: there are people out there looking for excuses to make her look bad. If the porn in question misrepresented all character horrendously, and if I had reason to believe people would know better, I wouldn't complain. The artist/writer skewed Rydia and Cecil, but they at least retained some semblance of who they are... and that sets people up for thinking Rosa's portrayed somewhat close to right. The doujin goes out of its way to make Rosa look like some corrupt, scandalous type. It even has a line in it where Cecil explicitly questions how Rosa could be a noble when she's acting the way the artist makes her act. And Rydia? She's portrayed as an innocent swayed into it by Rosa. I don't expect you to understand completely WHY it upsets me. You're used to doujins portraying characters wrong but people knowing better, which is the case for most; with Rosa, I'm used to people coming up with everything from "Rosa bullied this poor little girl!" to "Rosa looks like a super slut" to "Rosa's blonde!" as reasons to hate her, and that gives fuel to the fire. One person on a forum, supposedly just doing such twisting of events to make a point, even showed how easy it would be for people to twist her into looking like a slut by framing her coming to Cecil's bedroom at night in the worst possible light. That's why I care.

And don't worry, the hating her because she's blonde one made me laugh more than angry.

Tamagon

07-05-2008, 08:04 AM

*PaladinCecil*

07-05-2008, 10:43 AM

Complaining over porn is pretty silly.

I'd like to see some evidence of this "Rosa hate", as I have never seen too much Rosa hate. I'm not saying post porn, but these "posts" with Rosa hate.

Considering I don't see it anymore, I guess it went away.

The trouble with trying to find something you know you've seen before is that you often can't find what you're looking for when you WANT to find it, it's when you DON'T want to find something that you come across it. I can't really afford to spend a ton of time hunting down things I KNOW are out there and I can't find, like the posts I found somewhere where people said they hated Rosa because she's blonde, but here are a few things. I'll start with something familiar.

Final Fantasy worsts (Contains FF7 spoilers) - Final Fantasy Republic Forums (http://forums.ffrepublic.com/general-final-fantasy-discussion/23918-final-fantasy-worsts-contains-ff7-spoilers.html#post471630)

TheMan's posted there, here, several other places with the same spiel about how Rosa supposedly dated Kain but dumped him for Cecil because she's loose for whoever has the most power (obviously not true). I've seen people actually believe this to be true, which is why the porn portrayal concerns me. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it if not for a couple posts down where someone says they hated Rosa for the same reasons, and finding repeated unquestioningly at various places, including GaiaOnline and deviantart.

Shadow Madness Classic (http://smc.smallcave.net/woolsey/eoff.php)

If you scroll down, or use Find to look for Rosa, and read the surrounding text, you'll discover something: this is another case where they saw a post by TheMan or someone repeated his claim and, without ever questioning its veracity, takes it as truth. I use this one for two reasons. One: it shows I'm not making it up that people actually believe the lie. Two: the link he uses as a reference is a link to this very forum, to a topic that no longer exists. This points out part of why it matters to me now to defend Rosa as a character here, AND it makes the point that some things I found in the past may not be online for viewing anymore.

Final Fantasy Wiki:Dragon's Neck Colosseum/Archive V - The Final Fantasy Wiki has more Final Fantasy information than Cid could research (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Wiki:Dragon's_Neck_Colosseum/Archive_V#Week_47:_Aeris_v._Rosa)

I believe I've posted this one before. The negative comments toward Rosa don't seem as bad as I remember them, or maybe I'm just getting desensitized? I don't know, but I mention this one particularly because someone says her DS outfit makes her "look like a super slut." This is a comment I've seen getting more of a voice as the DS version gets more recognition. It bothers me because it adds to the above issues (portrayal in porn and the lie spread about her) AND because given that I usually see Rosa put down in combination with Rydia being put up on a pedestal, I notice that even though Rydia shows much more skin, she's considered "sexy" instead of "slutty." Some people have explained this as because Rosa's clothes have a flesh tone while Rydia's are green and gold, but that shouldn't be all it takes. They're dressed about the same, Rydia with less cover. And if it isn't clear enough with the DS remake... Rydia's The After outfit has MUCH less cover compared to Rosa and THAT one is ALSO considered "sexy" instead of "slutty" by most people.

How Things Should Be - FF4 by ~rydiahighwind on deviantART (http://rydiahighwind.deviantart.com/art/How-Things-Should-Be-FF4-2995867)

This one feels petty even to me, but I felt I had to show it to make it obvious there ARE people out there who despise this character with an unbridled passion, to the point where it's very certain they'd never be willing to see a speck of good in her, and would probably believe any number of bad things about her.

Here's some more from a least favorite character thread at CavesofNarshe:
Caves of Narshe Forums -> Least fav Character (http://www.cavesofnarshe.com/forums/ipb/index.php?showtopic=894&st=0&#entry14614)
Caves of Narshe Forums -> Least fav Character (http://www.cavesofnarshe.com/forums/ipb/index.php?showtopic=894&st=60&#entry62720)
Caves of Narshe Forums -> Least fav Character (http://www.cavesofnarshe.com/forums/ipb/index.php?showtopic=894&st=60&#entry62741)

And more evidence of hatred of the character:
the Seikens Board / Final Fantasy IV DS English Trailer (http://www.seikens.com/board/viewtopic.php?pid=18591)

Of course, another "worst character of all time" thread from your very own board:
http://forums.eyesonff.com/general-final-fantasy/61009-worst-character-all-time-23.html#post1210959

And this:
Women of Final Fantasy (http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall05/romans/preff7.html)

You know this is everywhere, I only gave one link for it. THIS bothers me because it points out something I've been fighting the current and losing on for a while: "Rosa is the FF epitome of damsel-in-distress." Which, like the claim of Rosa being a whore that slept with Kain and dumped him for Cecil over desire for power, is not true. She had the misfortune of being the first female lead of her type, and so when this game was created, they had to focus on the traits that were THEN not as thoroughly grafted into the minds of gamers. What I've been TRYING to get is people to see the OTHER traits she has that are more subtle and subdued, that you don't get as much exposition on because it's thought by the developers that you'll grasp her personality well enough through things like consoling Rydia or following Cecil to Kaipo that the now more memorable scenes needed to take more precedence. As FF4DS was being developed, I actually hoped they'd add a ton more scenes for Rosa because she's been thoroughly unjustly maligned for the crime of being the first of her type.

If I took more time, I know I could uncover plenty of other things I've found in the past that back each aspect of my concerns, but I don't have the time. I only gave a couple glimpses into eyesonff because I assume you've seen or can find the worse posts I've seen here that put her down (the worst character poll from eyesonff that I linked to is actually the least of them).

Tamagon

07-05-2008, 06:39 PM

Regarding Rosa's DS design.

I DID take a double-take to be sure it wasn't an edited image.

It DOES look like she's wearing purple panties :x

*PaladinCecil*

07-05-2008, 07:37 PM

Regarding Rosa's DS design.

I DID take a double-take to be sure it wasn't an edited image.

It DOES look like she's wearing purple panties :x

While I do dislike having to read people post about thinking Rosa's DS outfit makes her look like a slut, the part that gets me most out of sorts is the fact that most of the time, while people are more than happy to say Rosa looks like that, they turn around and say Rydia looks sexy when Rydia's wearing the exact same amount of clothing or less. It's an even bigger double standard when they say Rydia's The After outfit looks sexy while still saying Rosa's looks slutty, because Rydia's The After outfit shows even more skin than Rosa's.

I still have feelings to sort out when it comes to this issue. One part of it is that I can't help but think the changes made to their character designs for The After was made explicitly with fan comments on each of them in mind, and it irks me that Rosa's shoved in this massive robe that threatens to hide her face while Rydia gets an even more scantily clad look. Rosa DOES look fitting in that robe, but the reason behind a change and portrayal is everything to me, and I can't help but think the reason behind it for these two is that certain gamers (especially the BAD Rydia fans) refuse to accept the notion that Rosa could be just as sexy or moreso than the more popular Rydia, and it all stems back to how I typically see Rosa put down at the same time as Rydia gets built up. Whenever THAT happens, Rosa gets treated like the symbol of everything Rydia isn't, in turn made out to be the epitome of suck (because if she's the opposite, and everything about Rydia is awesome, it logically follows that...).

Before I say anything else that mentions Rydia this thread, I need to say this outright: I don't hate Rydia. I think she's a great character in her own right, and I see Rosa and Rydia as two sides of the same coin. What I DO hate is how a segment of Rydia fans treat Rosa like crap (e.g. the lie about Rosa pre-game and the portrayal in doujins, as petty as the second one sounds at a glance), and what that does to the way everyone views Rosa. At this point, the combination of overhyping Rydia and putting down Rosa that I've seen has numbed me to what I saw in Rydia to where I only objectively remember what I used to see in Rydia, and as you can see here, has me placing excessive focus on Rosa. If the situation were opposite, with Rydia the misaligned one and Rosa the one built up too high, I'd be defending Rydia instead.

It pretty much cycles; the more I need to defend Rosa (especially if it's on my own), the stronger my feelings get for the character. The less I have to defend her, the more I stabilize and closer I come to evening out between the two.

Sorry for giving you HUGE messages to read, it's my nature. I also just now saw the notifications I've been getting. Awesome, will be reading those after I posted my reply.

EDIT: I want to further emphasize that I capitalized the bad in "bad Rydia fans" to note that I'm not saying ALL Rydia fans are that way. I mean a specific subset of Rydia fans.

Tamagon

07-06-2008, 06:32 AM

*PaladinCecil*

07-06-2008, 07:58 AM

Now that's just a bit silly. Square's been known to make their females look slutty/fanservicy. They changed Rosa's design to make her look more like the common design of White Mage's. Summoners really don't have a "set" design. Other than the fact that they're green.

Summoners have become known for having green robes and a single horn. By your logic, Rydia should have a green robe and a single horn, or at least a green robe. She does not. Thus, I conclude Square-Enix covered Rosa in a massive robe reminiscent of white mages more because fans complained about her sexy new look in the DS remake, and made Rydia more scandalous because people liked it in her case.

Dr. Acula

07-07-2008, 01:04 AM

I think her being a mother to a teenage son may have contributed to her changing style.

NeoCracker

07-07-2008, 02:07 AM

Do you want to know why people think Rosa looks sluttier?

Her outfit looks more like what a dancer in some kind of older society would wear, the kind that put on shows for people.

Rydias looks more like a One piece swimsuit, and I hardly think you go to the beach and think "Oh that girl in a one piece swimsuite is a total ho-bag".

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Rosa looks slutty, but if I had to say which one looked Sluttier, it would without a doubt be Rosa.

*PaladinCecil*

07-07-2008, 02:15 AM

I think her being a mother to a teenage son may have contributed to her changing style.

I'd normally take that as good enough, but other games have their motherly females looking perfectly MILFish and showing cleavage, while the design for Rosa in this case covers all of her body and comes close to hiding her face. That they covered up so much of her body and have done absolutely nothing with her since the introduction and prologue portions of The After leads me to believe that fan reaction toward Rosa as a character told them "people don't like Rosa, so we should sweep her under the rug as much as we can without looking bad for it and focus on everyone else." That Rydia's plastered everywhere in The After, had hers as the first episode after the prerequisite intro episodes, and has a much more revealing outfit, all add to those notions I have because all of that for her makes it clear that they're building The After with catering to what they think the fans want.

This is why I had to say my views on Rydia earlier; I have nothing against her, but it's impossible to talk about my issues with how Rosa gets treated without mentioning Rydia, because the good treatment Rydia gets in comparison vividly highlights the issues I have. Where Rosa gets called slutty, Rydia gets called sexy. Where Rosa has her good events twisted into negatives, Rydia has her bad events twisted into positives. Where Rosa gets swept under the rug, Rydia gets put up on a pedestal. A complaint over people proclaiming Rydia to be the female lead of FF4 is argued against by saying she has more scenes and more development than Rosa in FF4... but then a complaint about Rydia getting so much attention in The After with Rosa nowhere to be found is argued against by saying Rydia didn't get much attention in FF4. There is an imbalance in the way each character gets treated for their roles in each game. Rydia gets excess, Rosa gets a deficit.

I don't want to finish this by giving the wrong impression, though. This past week has been kind to her. I've seen more people here and elsewhere acknowledging she has at least some good points (not necessarily appreciating or praising them, just knowing they're there), and some good, truly effortful art has been made of her recently that's on par with the quality I always see Rydia get (as opposed to the less-effortful art or half-done sketches I typically find for Rosa).

EDIT: I posted that before I saw NeoCracker's.

Do you want to know why people think Rosa looks sluttier?

Her outfit looks more like what a dancer in some kind of older society would wear, the kind that put on shows for people.

Rydias looks more like a One piece swimsuit, and I hardly think you go to the beach and think "Oh that girl in a one piece swimsuite is a total ho-bag".

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Rosa looks slutty, but if I had to say which one looked Sluttier, it would without a doubt be Rosa.

So dancer = slut? I can't say her outfit at all gives me the impression of a dancer, but even if it did, I fail to see how that would be grounds for thinking her clothing makes her look like someone who would have sex with random men. As for the one-piece swimsuit part, Rosa's wearing practically the same thing. In fact, she might be wearing a one-piece herself but with more underneath. This will make me sound understandably pervy, but if you check her upper torso, she has a red bra on underneath. The part people typically call "panties" on her could very well be (and probably is) a design shift in the leotard that her belt covers up. Would a woman really put on a bra beneath a top, but then suddenly decide panties alone is a good look for the lower half?

I know, I know, people don't think through first impressions at all so a fair bit of this is moot, but I also think that if they're getting that as the first impression of Rosa from one look at her, it only makes sense they should get that same response from Rydia. That they're interpreting practically the same thing or even LESS, just with different colors (and in The After, DEFINITELY much less and closer to the dancer wear you describe) as "sexy" when it's Rydia wearing it, leads me to believe most of "Rosa looks like a slut" is bias.

NeoCracker

07-07-2008, 02:45 AM

*PaladinCecil*

07-07-2008, 02:55 AM

1) I said so myself I didn't think she looked slutty.

2) No, dancer doesn't equal slut. But her outfit reminds me of the ones that are worn by some of the dancers you see in various movies, the kind that are thier simply to visually please the men.

3) Generally a Bra being at all visibleis concidered more innapropriate then it not being visable at all, so you're hardly helping your case with that point. :p

4) And it only resembles that kind of outfit. It hardly looks exactly the same.

1) Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that's what YOU thought. I got the impression you were trying to claim a dancer look is equivalent to a slut look.

2) Thanks for clearing that up. I agree, it does look like THAT kind of clothing, but as I said, I don't quite see how being visually appealing is grounds for thinking Rosa's a slut (as OTHER people have claimed) or how it's much different from Rydia. The only differences are that Rydia shows more skin and has less ornamentation, the second one understandable given that she isn't from noble, high society.

3) That philosophy is something I'm unfamiliar with, and I'm sure that's obvious. :P I guess it makes sense since men showing underwear would be impolite, but it's rather hard to hide a bra when the bra band is thicker than the shoulder strap of your outer wear.

4) I don't know what way you mean this one, so I'm skipping it. :)

NeoCracker

07-08-2008, 05:52 AM

*PaladinCecil*

07-08-2008, 12:05 PM

I was just saying it doens' look exactly like the dancer outfits, only resembles. :p Nothing really to read into.

In the end people who hate Rosa just grasp at little things like this and exaggerate. :p

Which is why I get upset by things like what I've been complaining about. The people who hate Rosa grasp at things and exaggerate them. The more people who go with it, either because they absolutely loathe Rosa or they'd like to see her the way people are talking about her, the more it comes off as accurate to anyone who hasn't spent much time with the game. It comes off even MORE true if nobody raises a voice against it, because contrary to what some might like to believe, silence comes off as acceptance. If it's not true, someone would have corrected them, right? So, the person gets it in his or her mind that that view of the character must be right, and from that point on, they will read into the events of the game with that in mind.

At this point, Rosa's already lost being seen as gentle, loving and nurturing, all because of the above. The majority view I've seen has been that she's clingy (even though Cecil clearly loves her back just as much), whiny (even though the closest she ever comes to whining is fearing for Cecil's life), weak (even though the only times she needs help, she needs it for things that anyone could have needed help with), and so on. And her personality? "Oh, she's a stereotypical white mage," forgetting she was the first of her type and refusing to see where she's unique or gives it a bit of her own flair. While the majority opinion of her is that she sucks, up til now in the majority view, she's at LEAST retained her exquisite love story with Cecil and that pure angle...

...And now she's losing even that much.

People are willing to believe it when someone claims, without actual proof, that she slept with Kain and dumped him for Cecil because she's power-hungry. People are calling her a slut, mostly for appearance now, but as I have seen with any other traits of hers, they'll start to read into events of the game with that in mind. People are advancing the notion of Rydia as the female lead of FF4, and promoting the idea that the love between Cecil and Rosa is weak so that Rydia hooks up with the hero and Rosa goes off to do some random crap she'd never do.

I like this character, and the more things like the above that I see happen, the more I wish the DS remake were never made... because it's more important to me to have my favorite character retain at least some semblance of her good points in the eyes of the public and remain obscure, than lose all of that and become viewed as something bad and only have some pretty CG videos and images to make up for it. A remake of my favorite game is not worth the gradual butchering of one of the most personally important aspects of it.

Denmark

07-12-2008, 07:30 AM

She crossed monster-infested lands alone, her bow and arrows her only attack. The fact that she made it to Kaipo is in itself a clear sign that she's more than just a damsel in distress. And unlike Rydia, she didn't have black magic to fall back on. Not only does this show Rosa's a strong woman, but it shows her deep love for Cecil. She risked her life traveling across land, desert and possibly mountain and must have faced hordes of monsters just to reach the man she loves.

Everyone knows that monsters only attack the controlled party (randomly or at set points in time) and important characters at key times. Thus, Rosa would not have been attacked; there was no need for it to happen. :p

FFIV might be the first one to actually have some real character development to it, but apart from Rydia growing up and Cecil changing to a Paladin nothing is really major, and both of those things happen quite suddenly. I see FFIV's characters as just their classes, because that's what they are really, more than being actual characters. The game decides for you which characters you use and when. It's different from other games up to this point in using five characters at once (at endgame) instead of four, but you still end up with Unne's favorite balanced party from FF1 (Knight [a Paladin, but Knights from FF1 used White Magic so could probably be called Paladins], Ninja, White Wizard, Black Wizard), plus a Dragoon.

Don't read the second paragraph of this post, just read the first one and pretend I wasn't ranting. :D