Proof that Tidus Zanarkand is on Spira (spoiler)

[Renmiri]

On the Ultimania Scenario guide map we can clearly see there is an area called Zanarkand Ruins and another, with different geography, called Zanarkand (Tidus Zanarkand)

http://ffproject.net/forumwiki/images/thumb/800px-Dzproof.jpg (http://ffproject.net/forumwiki/index.php?title=Image:Dzproof.jpg)

[TRANS_AM409]

the one zanerkand is the dream of the fyath thats just the map to help you find your way aroun in that area i think

[Renmiri]

Yes!

Some people debate wether the dream of the fayth was actually in an island in Spira. Ultimania proves it is.

[Tavrobel]

The location of DZ is never stated directly in FFX, which leads people to believe that DZ is still 1000 years in the past, which it isn't. As far as the Ultimania goes, it does little other than to confirm that the people who know what they are talking about are correct. It wasn't there in the map just to "help people find their way around the area," but it was probably rather to clarify a misunderstanding.

[Renmiri]

I agree

[TRANS_AM409]

interesting this seems plauasable, i had always thought the DZ was just zanarkand over 1000 years ago.

[Tavrobel]

It's not. It's a representation of Zanarkand as it SHOULD have been 1000 years ago... except it continues to change and adapt and evolve over that 1000 years. Originally, it was likely that the people that became the fayth reconstructed Zanarkand in the area of 90-100% accuracy. However, because of the sheltered nature of DZ, it probably did not change as nature would have intended. For instance, while DZ was in Spira (albiet un-connected and separated by fear of Sin and guidance of Yu Yevon), the DZ characters knew nothing of the outside world.

It was completely surrounded by water on all sides, when 50% of the the real Zanarkand was surrounded by land. They didn't know of Gagazet (as evidenced by Tidus's reaction to the concept of Spira existing in the first place), which was directly South of the original city, and their first major line of defense should war ever arise (and Gagazet did stop the Yevonites for a time until they finally surpassed its creepiness). Yevon also likely reset DZ to its original standing when it was first created, to avoid catastophe, or to undo with any of its citizenry "learning the truth."

There's alot of details and nuances about DZ which can be very confusing.
Subtext and linking things together for the win.
At least it's canon and not complete crazy talk such as... say...
Riku's Nobody = Axel, or Yuna = is dead, but hides it.

[TRANS_AM409]

thats sounds good to me but could the dz people leave any time across the sea and didnt cause they thought the sea was endless or somthing or would sin have to take them?

[Renmiri]

Like Truman on the Truman show ?

Nope, what happened is that Yu Yevon reset the memories of anyone in DZ who learned the truth. (Ultimania Omega guide). Also, being born and raised with no one traveling, after a few generations the DZ people would think that not leaving town is normal...

Perhaps someone in the Universe wonders why we on Earth never left our solar system, yet to most here on Earth space travel was crazy talk until the 1900s... Heck, they thought FLYING above the ground was crazy talk..

[TRANS_AM409]

oh i see some one should post some of the stuff of the Ultimania Omega guide some where or tell me where i could look at it.

[Mirage]

Yep. When the fayth "dreams" Zanarkand, they actually summon it, along with all its citizens. That's how sin could get there, and how he could exist in the rest of Spira.

No one would be likely to find it, seeing as their technology was pretty low-level, and no one dared to travel into the unknown oceans, because of the threat of Sin.
The last part is what I think, so don't mistake it for the absolute and undeniable truth :p.

[bipper]

Would it be like the esper gate from Final fantasy VI? Or are you proposing it is an entire island that exists and should have been stumbled upon a by random sailors, minus what mirage just said. What I don't get is that we watch sin destroy the 'ell outta the town, or do some damn good damage, but was sin created to protect Zanarkand and its denzions?

I never look to far into this game cause I pretty much hate it, but I should give it a closer look. :cool:

[added] The shape of the island looks ver familiar.?:plotting:

[Mirage]

Well, I'm not sure, but it would appear Jecht still had some free will left, enough to go there to get his son out. Even if he did destroy it, it would be possible to summon it again.

[Roto13]

So, why is Jecht the only person from Zanarkand to have found Spira? And how did Auron get back and forth between the two?

[Cookie]

Maybe it's because hes dead

[bipper]

I am thinking Zanarkand was a kinda of utpoia - hevanish. Etheral, and having a connecting point to Spira, much like the farplane. Prehapse that is esentially what Zanarkand is, more of the customised Farplane for its damned denzions?

Auron was dead So he could travel between the two, but yet he could not enter the far plane. So that seems to trigger a whole issue with my thought.

[Psydekick]

So, why is Jecht the only person from Zanarkand to have found Spira? And how did Auron get back and forth between the two?
Didnt he use sin or something?

[feona17]

Okay, I don't fully understand this whole concept of Dream Zanarkand and it's connection with Spira, but I'll try. This is totally full of spoilers so...

Bahamut's fayth said that the fayth wanted to preserve Zanarkand's memories, it's sights and it's people. They knew that this great machina war Bevelle and Zanarkand would completely wipe it out. So is it not possible that this Dream Zanarkand co-exists with Spira at the same time? Just completely out of reach?

How were Auron, Tidus and Jecht all able to come to Spira? Sin right... how was Sin connected with Dream Zanarkand and Spira? Sin didn't come, supposedly until after the great war ended. But because Sin had a direct relation to Yu Yevon, who is a summoner, who then had a direct relation to the Fayth, maybe that's why Sin was able to cross that barrier of reality and fantasy. Fantasy being Dream Zanarkand and Reality Spira.

Where did Yu Yevon come from? Did he create Sin, or were the Yevon fools right about Spira's actual sins creating a monster. If they weren't right, why did Yu Yevon summon Sin?

Dream Zanarkand doesn't actually exist. It's a conception, a fantasy, conceived by the Fayth from their memories of the real Zanarkand. Technically, Dream Zanarkand is a 1000 years old, because that's how long the Fayth had been dreaming.

All of that brings me to another question... when they were fighting Jecht, they were just finished with Seymour INSIDE of Sin right? They go into some desolate place, where is that place? I don't know. Somehow, from collecting those crystal eggs they end up in Dream Zanarkand? Someone, please explain that.

edit: http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=89387 this thread was helpful, but more confusing at the same time.

[Tavrobel]

Prople from DZ did not leave, and most of the did not have the intention to leave. This was likely input in the minds of all DZ inhabitants, to prevent question of the outside world. They would just assume that they were alone and were happy about it. As far as I can tell, the comforts and requirements of food, space, air, and any other basic necessities were provided by Yu Yevon, and in ample opportunity.

The only reason Jecht got to Spira was because he swam too far out to practice. He accidentally encountered Sin; this is purely a chance occurence. Also, Yu Yevon watch was probably lax at this point (if we assume that it takes an average of 250 years for every High Summoner, and assuming that there were only 3 before Braska), Yu Yevon was comfortable with his Sin, and the Sin's mind was likely to be completely dominated. Such is the effect on one's mind whilst traveling the halls of death.

While DZ is most certainly located on Spira, it could be like the Esper gate, where you can't get to it unless you are allowed to. This is also used in LotR (the Hiding of Valinor), and if you sailed to where it SHOULD have been, you would just get the lands of East Harad (or the Hitherlands). However, this isn't necessary (but completely a possibility), because of the protection of Sin (whether inadvertant or compulsory).

As was said, while Jecht destroyed DZ (seemingly), it was at this point, only been ten years since his inception. He was still free willed (however stemming it was), and Yu Yevon can also reset the city incase anything ever happened. You'd think that Yu Yevon would NOT want someone from DZ to be Sin, but of course, it was his oinly choice. If he had not taken Jecht as his new Sin, he would have committed suicide, not just for himself, but his suboordinate fayth, as well.

As mentioned, Jecht came to Spira by accident, and was rushed there by Sin. However, Auron is dead, and can travel the world freely. However, the priorities of insatiable learning through death seemed to affect Auron little, perhaps because he wanted no truth, only to serve his friend (he doesn't seem that smart in the Jecht spheres, despite his newfound wisdom in FFX). Auron as an unsent would have to have STRONG emotional ties to want to remain in Spira. As such, he desired NOT to go to the Farplane; infact, he denies it, especially at Guadosalam, when you see the ghost of Jyscal emerge from the Farplane and give the sphere to Yuna, Auron yells out in great pain, to the ignorance of everyone else, only yelling at Yuna to send him back. Clearly, the presence of multiple unsents is detrimental to the other, dependning on whether or not one is using his power to escape, while the other is attempting to run from it.


Bahamut's fayth said that the fayth wanted to preserve Zanarkand's memories, it's sights and it's people. They knew that this great machina war Bevelle and Zanarkand would completely wipe it out. So is it not possible that this Dream Zanarkand co-exists with Spira at the same time? Just completely out of reach?

If you don't understand it, then ask. Just prepare to get yelled at. Severely.

Yes, he did. It is true that DZ exists apart from Spira. This is to prevent tampering from the people of Bevelle.


How were Auron, Tidus and Jecht all able to come to Spira? Sin right... how was Sin connected with Dream Zanarkand and Spira? Sin didn't come, supposedly until after the great war ended. But because Sin had a direct relation to Yu Yevon, who is a summoner, who then had a direct relation to the Fayth, maybe that's why Sin was able to cross that barrier of reality and fantasy. Fantasy being Dream Zanarkand and Reality Spira.


Auron is from Spira. He was born there. However, he died and is now able to cross from one to the other easily. Jecht came by accident, as previously mentioned. Tidus, however, came because of Jecht's decision to bring him to Spira.

Sin is also created by the fayth who made DZ. Yevon made this plan, so that when the fayth of Zanarkand dreamed, they dreamed not only of DZ, but of Sin as a weapon to aid Yevon in his victory. Sin failed, but not in the traditional sense.

History is written by the winners, Bevelle said that they won the war when they found Zanarkand in ruins. They declared it "over." However, they would rue this victory, because shortly thereafter, Sin attacked.

Bevelle history looks like this in a timeline
date x: climbing over Gagazet
date x+1: finding Zanarkand in ruins
date x+1.5: declaring victoly over Zanarkand
date x+3: Sin attacks

Yevon's perception of time looks like this
date x: Gagazet protects Yevon to stall for time
date x+.75: Yevon finishes gathering people
date x+1.5: Yevon enacts his plan, the people become fayth
date x+2: Sin is created, DZ is created by the dream of the fayth
date x+3: Sin rapes Spira


Dream Zanarkand doesn't actually exist. It's a conception, a fantasy, conceived by the Fayth from their memories of the real Zanarkand. Technically, Dream Zanarkand is a 1000 years old, because that's how long the Fayth had been dreaming.

I'm getting REAL TIRED of having to say this. DZ is not located in the past. It is located in the present. It DOES exist, and it IS REAL; however, you cannot get to it.


All of that brings me to another question... when they were fighting Jecht, they were just finished with Seymour INSIDE of Sin right? They go into some desolate place, where is that place? I don't know. Somehow, from collecting those crystal eggs they end up in Dream Zanarkand? Someone, please explain that.

The city is called the City of the Dead. It is a symbolic of the older FFs having a final dungeon before fighitng the final boss. This is eqiuvalent of that; however, its plot usage is little more than to explain Sin's gigantic size, or as a symbolic representation of Zanarkand in ruins/abandoned.

After the enter the Tower of the Dead, they see the area in which all souls gather (if killed by Sin). Sinscales/spawn are probably special types of Fiends, killed by Sin personally. You see a glimpse of this after Operation Mi'ihen. In gathering the crystals, they are brought up to Jecht's core. This is NOT DZ! This is the representation of what Jecht cares for; an outlook over his city. It determines his reality, an easter egg given to him by Yevon, before his mind is crushed by the poison of the HATE.

[Mirage]

So, why is Jecht the only person from Zanarkand to have found Spira? And how did Auron get back and forth between the two?
Because Jecht is Sin. I think it's reasonable to assume he's able to travel to places where no human would dare to go.
-edit-
Okay, I misread.
I don't think it's said that he's the only one who could leave. It is in his nature to try being the best though, so maybe he tried to see how far out he could get, and then stumbled into Sin by accident. This is just speculation though.

[feona17]

Dream Zanarkand doesn't actually exist. It's a conception, a fantasy, conceived by the Fayth from their memories of the real Zanarkand. Technically, Dream Zanarkand is a 1000 years old, because that's how long the Fayth had been dreaming.

I'm getting REAL TIRED of having to say this. DZ is not located in the past. It is located in the present. It DOES exist, and it IS REAL; however, you cannot get to it.

Hey hey hey, I wasn't saying it was located in the past hun, I was saying it's been around for 1000 years. Dream Zanarkand is summoned right, and things like Aeons are summoned too, and they are perfectly real I understand that. But I thought throughout the game that, they are not actually real like how the other characters, and Spira were.

Oh yeah DZ and Aeons were real alright, but they were creations/summons from real living people. It's hard to convey my thought on that. But I know that DZ is real, just not in a way. Thanks for explaining all of that.

[Laugh at face of Danger]

i hear some people like to say that Bevelle and Zanarkand are reversed, as in Tidus came from what is now Bevelle, just that he knew it as Zanarkand, and that Zanarkand Ruins was actually a ruined Bevelle. I find it a little difficult to grasp.

[Tavrobel]

It's not true.

However, the religion that Yevon created DID become the main religion of Bevelle, even if only to appease him.

[Mirage]

Dream Zanarkand doesn't actually exist. It's a conception, a fantasy, conceived by the Fayth from their memories of the real Zanarkand. Technically, Dream Zanarkand is a 1000 years old, because that's how long the Fayth had been dreaming.

I'm getting REAL TIRED of having to say this. DZ is not located in the past. It is located in the present. It DOES exist, and it IS REAL; however, you cannot get to it.

Hey hey hey, I wasn't saying it was located in the past hun, I was saying it's been around for 1000 years. Dream Zanarkand is summoned right, and things like Aeons are summoned too, and they are perfectly real I understand that. But I thought throughout the game that, they are not actually real like how the other characters, and Spira were.

Oh yeah DZ and Aeons were real alright, but they were creations/summons from real living people. It's hard to convey my thought on that. But I know that DZ is real, just not in a way. Thanks for explaining all of that.
Dream Zanarkand is as real as Aeons, how's that for a summary? :)