*spoiler warning* overanalyzing Tidus's Zanarkand

[VengefulRonin]

*note: forgive me if this has been asked before, i havent found a thread on it though (maybe i'm blind)...and forgive me for being such a MASSIVE dork*

As you most likely know, right before you get to zanarkand, tidus goes unconsious and bahamut's aeon talks to him and says that the Zanarkand Tidus is from is not only a dream, but the ultimate summoning of the fayth. This is, of course, what Lulu mentions right before tidus blacks out, where she makes note of all the fayth in the wall summoning something of great power, and we see the water cyclone (proof right there that when sin attacked zanarkand it wasnt destroyed...although i bet it left quite a repair job). Anyway, i'm off track. The fayth says that Zanarkand is the ultimate summoning...but wtf is the POINT of it? Why summon up zanarkand? Obviously when the survivors of the original zanarkand formed into fayth and summoned up Zanarkand they had incredible collective power to be able to summon the city and its citizens in their entireity...and not only that, but they'd kept it going for 1000 years. So my first question, as i stated, is:

What is the point of summoning Zanarkand if it's only a dream?

Now for the second question. As zanarkand seems to serve no purpose other than to keep these fayth entertained, i have to question their morality (and more than that, their love for their own planet). Why, if they have the ability to summon an entire city and its people, did they not use this massive power to, say...kill sin? If tidus and his friends can pound their way into sin and kill Yu Yevon, i'm sure that all those fayth on gagazet could do the same. In the very least, why not at least protect spira and its people from Sin? Seems to me that they were content in dreaming and staying in the past, and they took no interest in the current time period.

[Dynast-Kid]

I always asked myself the first question

and the second one brings up a good point...

[rubah]

The fayth can't do anything, they're only there being summoned. You don't see valefor come up after yuna's been KO'd and go 'hey baby, here's you a phoenix down'

It's like having an oil well somewhere. If you know it's there, you can drill down and get the oil and use it to make gas or vaseline or plastics. But the oil can't do anything for itself, it's just there. No matter how much it could be used for, it's stuck between a rock and a hard place

Yevon summoned dream!Zanarkand because he was mad that he lost to bevelle.

[VengefulRonin]

Rubah, where in the game does it say that Yevon was using the fayth to summon Zarkand? Maybe it says it in a cutscene i missed...but i do recall bahamut's fayth referring to it as the dream of the fayth, not the dream of Yevon.

And you said the fayth cant do anything themselves, and gave that example of Valefor coming up to yuna. But remember...the summons themselves are NOT the fayth. The fayth manifest themselves into the summons when aiding the summoner. And they can and DO interact with people. Hello, bahamut's fayth talks to tidus throughout the entire game, and even towards the end talks to both Tidus and Yuna!

[Little Blue]

Actually Rubah hit it right on the money. I can't remember where it says in the game, though I do know a lot can be deduced from your various conversations with the Bahamut Fayth, especially this one (http://ffproject.net/ff10/fayth/meet_bahamut.php) in which he discusses Yu Yevon. It is also clearly stated in the Ultimania guides for FFX (for those who can read japanese, otherwise you, like me, will have to find translations) that Dream Zanarkand is summoned by Yu Yevon, using the dreams of the fayth.

Think of it like this, the fayth dream a template, a framework for whatever aeon they are for. Valefor would dream Valefor, Bahamut would dream Bahamut. But that is all they are, dreams, non-coporeal and without substance until a summoner summons them. The summoner, using their ability to manipulate pyreflies gives the dream substance, and a physical aeon is the result. An aeon cannot exist without a summoner summoning it. Yu Yevon used the dreams of the fayth on Gagazet, formerly citizens of Zanarkand, and used their memories of the city to rebuild it.

Anyway, to answer your first question, the point of summoning Dream Zanarkand is very simple. To continue the city. Using the word Dream is slightly misleading as it implies that it only exists in someones head when it does physically exist in Spira, somewhere. Yu Yevon knew his city would be lost to Bevelle, and since he was reportedly the greatest summoner who ever lived, he made a plan to prolong Zanarkands existance. e had the survivors turn into fayth on Gagazet and used their memories to recreate an ideal Zanarkand. He was preserving his way of life, his home.

As for your second question, as I said earlier, the fayth can do nothing without a summoner giving their dream substance. Since Yu Yevon is the summoner of the Gagazet Fayth, the only summoner of those fayth might I add, they are helpless to oppose him. DZ is not about giving the fayth entertainment.

As for the fayth talking to Tidus and Yuna, I believe the Ultimania's refer to people who have some kind of bond with pyreflies (eg summoners, unsent, or in Tidus' case, Aeons) are able to see and interact with the fayth should they choose to appear in their human forms, but these forms are nothing but ghosts. They have no physical presence and no power to manipulate objects.

I hope that made sense, but someone will probably come along with a more coherent explanation soon anyway.

[BG-57]

Dream Zanarkand is one of the most confusing points of the game and the fact that you have to read a tome to truly understand how it works does not bode well.

Basically the Summoners of Zanarkand, led by Yu Yevon and his daughter Yunalesca, were losing a war against the superior arms of the heavily mechanized country of Bevelle. As a last desprate act, the citizens of Zanakand sacrificed their lives to help Yu Yevon summon a Dream version of the city, forever untouchable by the marauding armies.

The problem is that Yu Yevon needed protection to continue the summoning forvever. So an armor formed out of gravity and pyreflies was formed to enclose Yu Yevon: Sin. If Sin had a peaceful nature, there would be no problem. But Sin is inherently destructive (note that most Godzilla-sized monsters are not peaceful), so it trashed Zanarkand and then for good measure wiped out the invading Bevelle army. Yunalesca, one of the few survivors, convinced Bevelle to adopt the current strategy to defeat Sin, namely the Final Summoning.

Now here's where it gets more confusing: Dream Zanarkand is a coporeal place somewhere on Spira's surface. It's simply unaccessable from the rest of Spira. As the Fayth that summoned it continue to dream, it has evolved over 1000 years into the metropolis you see at the beginning and end of the game. Tidus is from the last generation of inhabitants. He did not travel though time, although he thinks that he did for most of the game.

So the point of DZ is to preserve the memory of city long lost. It's a touching idea, but the presence of Sin is the horrific price that the rest of Spira has paid for 1000 years. The Fayth that have dreamed up the city are literally trapped into dreaming forever. They are getting tired of it and they look to first Jecht and later Tidus as a person who can free them. Which Tidus can do, at the price of his coporeal existence. After all, he is as much a product of their dreaming as the rest of DZ and the inhabitants.

[01 Rin]

Hm, I did not know that Yunalesca was Yu Yevon's daughter. Is that mentioned in a cutscene in FFX or "Ultimania?"

First Question:
Yes, Dream Zanarkand's purpose is to keep the "old Zanarkand," all the inhabitants, and their memories in a semi-existing form. This form takes the shape of a dream. Since Tidus is a dream of the fayth, he remembers Zanarkand and is able to communicate with the fayth. Specifically, as Auron's Ghost said, Bahamut's fayth.

As far as the war 1000 years past is concerned, I suggest that you speak with Maechen (old man in green) in Mt. Gagazet- Entrance, when the airship can enter Sin. Agree to listen to "his-story" (get it? :eep: ) and then he will explain the Great War between Zanarkand and Bevelle more clearly than I. :p

Second Question:
The fayth can only have so much power. Yes, they have a lot of power to dream up Zanarkand and prolong its memories of the people of Zanarkand, but they cannot use it to destroy Sin. You see, they fayth used up so much power dreaming Zanarkand that they are tired, I mean, you hear them say that they're tired numerous times in the game anyways. The know that Sin is a creature of destruction so they try to help defeat Sin in a similar way the Crusaders help keep Spira safe. The fayth create Aeons and pray with Summoners so that the Summoners use Aeons to defeat Sin, as Yu Yevon and Yunalesca hoped with the Final Aeon.
I'm afraid I'm unsure of what came first: the fayth's dream of Zanarkand or Sin. If Sin came first before DZ, than I'd have to agree with you on the second question, VengefulRonin.

[Tavrobel]

The simplest answer to the question of WHY to summon Dream Zanarkand, is to preserve the integrity of the city; even if they could no longer do so with actual substance. Most of the Zanarkand citizens felt that they were wrongfully attacked by the people/machina of Bevelle, and most of them slaughtered. Fearing the destruction of themselves, they offered themselves to Yevon (who was at that time, gathering recruits to rebuild this marvelous project).

Yevon however, exploited them (in a somewhat friendly sense; Yevon likely knew many of these people as its leader) to use their power as a weapon. Sin is a direct cause of the citizens; without them, there is neither a dream, nor Sin. He felt that this was the best way to both protect his people, AND defeat Bevelle, instituting his tyrranical rule.

While Sin was not necessarily desired by the people, it did win the war for them, despite the heavy cost, and protects DZ from potential threat, by nipping technology in the bud, and keeping people in constant fear of Yevon, which was his plan in the first place. The citizens of Zanarkand WANTED TO WIN (well, technically all they wanted was not to lose). Sin made them win. They are NOT the enemies of Sin, nor its summoner, Yu Yevon. However, after 1000 years, would you not tire as well? The Fayth may have the power, but they do not have the will to act, nor can they be guaranteed of dealing actual damage.

Aurons Ghost and BG-57 hit it on the spot of HOW this occurs.

[rubah]

Talk to Machaen at the foot of Mt. Gagzet after you've gone to yunalesca but before you go to sin, or maybe after you go to sin, and he'll tell you more about her and yu yevon.

[01 Rin]

Talk to Machaen at the foot of Mt. Gagzet after you've gone to yunalesca but before you go to sin, or maybe after you go to sin, and he'll tell you more about her and yu yevon.
I totally just said that.


The simplest answer to the question of WHY to summon Dream Zanarkand, is to preserve the integrity of the city; even if they could no longer do so with actual substance. Most of the Zanarkand citizens felt that they were wrongfully attacked by the people/machina of Bevelle, and most of them slaughtered. Fearing the destruction of themselves, they offered themselves to Yevon (who was at that time, gathering recruits to rebuild this marvelous project).

Yevon however, exploited them (in a somewhat friendly sense; Yevon likely knew many of these people as its leader) to use their power as a weapon. Sin is a direct cause of the citizens; without them, there is neither a dream, nor Sin. He felt that this was the best way to both protect his people, AND defeat Bevelle, instituting his tyrranical rule.

While Sin was not necessarily desired by the people, it did win the war for them, despite the heavy cost, and protects DZ from potential threat, by nipping technology in the bud, and keeping people in constant fear of Yevon, which was his plan in the first place. The citizens of Zanarkand WANTED TO WIN (well, technically all they wanted was not to lose). Sin made them win. They are NOT the enemies of Sin, nor its summoner, Yu Yevon. However, after 1000 years, would you not tire as well? The Fayth may have the power, but they do not have the will to act, nor can they be guaranteed of dealing actual damage.
wow. u sure explain things pretty clearly. its like you worked in Square-Enix or something (or Squaresoft). looks like most of it was just thinking about it for a while, or common sense to the MAX.
seems like the war will never end. in reality or in dreams.

[VengefulRonin]

This is more explaining than there is in the bloody game O_O

I like FFX alot...but geez, it's so confusing >_<

And one last question...Yu Yevon, you could say, is an unsent summoner....so then, WHY is he a tiny, ugly octopus thing instead of in bodily form like Yunalesca or Seymour were?

[Tavrobel]

Just because you are an unsent, doesn't mean you can't become a fiend (technically the whole definition of a fiend begins from being an unsent). The possibility is that when he died, he was so powerful, that his power collapsed in on himself. As stated before, he wasn't exactly happy at the thought of having die, so he used DZ instead. However, he probably lived out a normal lifespan, but his soul remained.

Over time, Yu Yevon's heart was corrupted by Old Manus, Arucard, Levian, Kyono, rubah, Leeza, Miriel, kikimm, Rye, and their leader Christmas; the true custodians of the HATE. The Red Mage Pirates Zeromus_X, FlareNUKE, and many other noble pirates led by Captain Maxx Power tried to stop them, allied with the forces of PsyPie the Overlord; but they failed due to the intervention of Loony BoB; also known as "the Deceiver." On the journey to the final battle, PsyPie took three trusted guardians with him: Sora!, Del Murder, and Rye. Rye betrayed the team, and PsyPie and the others were captured by Andross Loony BoB.

Sora! barely escaped Venom, and returned to deliver the news to PsyPie's dear, and young son, Mulley. Raised by Spatvark, the Keeper of the Pwn and cl_out, the Machina-Master, Mulley grew strong, and went out to fight back against the forces that captured his father. Unbeknownst to Mulley and his air forces, StarMullet (comprised of the members theundeadhero as wingman, Trumpet Thief as engineer, and Giga Guess as analyst), as they blasted off to fight the HATRED, the HATE had launched an attack against Site Staff, the home of Mulley. A second fierce battle occured over the HATE's base of operations, the Feedback Forum.

Raistlin the hermit was found hiding amongst the ruins of the HATE's secret weapons, being attacked by the promiscuous and dastardly cunning Shlupquack. Mulley slew her, and used her bones to predict the location that the HATE's base of operations would appear, since it required five minutes of maintenence each day. Aided by Captain Maxx Power of the lunarweaver, he and his allies, back by Avarice-ness and roto13-ness, a newlywed rogue couple, laid siege as Mulley entered in. It was soon he encountered the stone sentinels: Election Booth and Award Guy. He broke them, and found himself face to face with the Dark Lord Sauron Loony BoB, and his One Ring, which was also protected by nineteen other rings.

Mulley was forced to flee, but in the meantime, the attack forces had done more damage than anticipated. They destroyed the base, perhaps a little too easily. It was in that moment, that all hope had faded! Elendil Zeromus_X was slain in noble combat, alongside with SeedRankLou, a great sage of unsurpassable knowledge. However, his disciples, Aurons Ghost and Skyblade took on the charge, and laid further siege to the HATE. But alas! all was in vain, for the true Dark Lord Melkor Christmas had arrived. He had slewn the remaining Valar (the Powers that be that were not yet under his domination: eestlinc, RSL, Samuraid, Big D, and even Jojo, for his HATE knew no bounds).

Mulley and his allies failed in that moment. But their courage is not forgetten. Christmas had lost many of his generals, Rye, rubah, kikimm, Arucard, and even the sly Kyono. Crippled, he prepares his new and ultimate weapon, the Death Star BIGASS ORB OF HATE BITCH against the meaining rebels, led by Leeza, whose spirit was freed from the unknowning domination of Christmas. Under her direction, even now does the fight continue. Levian and Old Manus are unaccounted for, but it is likely from this recent string of attacks that matches their MO (Modus Operandi) that they have left the coersion of the Dark Lord of HATE.

Soon however, help came. Little Miss Awesome led a rebel force against the Dark Lord of the HATE, along with Raistlin. While they were captured, they caused even more damage to the unsurmountable Chistmas. The Administatar and baloki struck back, and freed the captives. Christmas, sensing his failing power, recruited even more custodians of the HATE. Bleys, Doomgaze, and BOU fell to his evil influence, and they fought hard against the rebel force. He delved deep into the evil arts of Necromancy, and raised the unwilling spirirt of PsyPie, and sent him against his former allies (except Leeza, who was his enemy whilst alive). Scared, Raistlin and Little Miss Awesome were forced to flee, underground, until at last they come to the Final Solution.

A Doomsday Device. I would not lie to you, would I my friend? You must act! Fight the HATE! Don't worry, my logic cannot be denied. My source of this development was the New York Times.

Now go! You must lead your people to Kalimdor the Final Fantasy Music/Spirits Within Forum, and make haste, before the tides of Darkness HATE consume the world. There you will find the Doomsday device, and you must aid them fire it! The HATE must not prevail! DO NOT GIVE INTO THE DARKSIDE! SLIGHTLY GREY IS BETTER! MAKE HASTE!

In his death, he was likely to be corrupted. And continuing from that point on, his mind was twisted and knowledge "came to him" at rapid rates, probably changing his outlook and nature, possibly changing the form that he took. He probably became fiend-like, and took the form of a large floating orb of unknown substance. His power also has something to do with it, as it collapsed in on himself, leaving only the shell of a former Summoner.

Usually if you notice in RPGs, the magic users are usually frail and have no need of physical strength. His orbiness probably represents that to the extreme. He is no different from Yunalesca or Seymour (although you interpretation of Seymour being a fiend is somewhat false; becoming a fiend takes a long amount of time). He probably began to use Sin against Spira at its fullest weapon capacity, besides from defending. He probably intended to stop, but due to being dead, his thoughts may have changed, as is often the case when you are presented with the infalllible wisdom of death.

[VengefulRonin]

O_O

[Tavrobel]

Just pay attention to the first paragraph, and the last two. The middle section is for everyone else at the site.

[VengefulRonin]

*read them*

So his spirit turned into an octopus thing. Man i'd hate to look into a mirror...although i suppose he had no mirrors.

You also said:

Usually if you notice in RPGs, the magic users are usually frail and have no need of physical strength. His orbiness probably represents that to the extreme.
Very true...Vivi was quite small and fragile, yet my strongest character in IX. Or heck...look at Ozma. Huge gigantic orb, yet strongest boss in the game, and he was an old summon too.