American Anime

[BakerMan]

I find it really annoying that America is "taking over" Anime.(at least some pathetic attempts) Like this new show on Nick there's Kappa and on Cartoon Network they have Xiaolin Showdown, Teen Titans, (possibly)Pokemon. They are all pitiful attempts at Anime. First off most of they have horrible voice acting, second they all hardly any basis on Anime, and third they all usually have a stupid story line. If you ask me I think pretty much all of the above, and more, should be taken off air. What do you think?

[Sylvie]

I agree with most of them besides Xailin showdown. I don't think that was ever intended to be anime (or at least, I hope not). Pokemon is Japanese, and its mostly intended for children. Teen Titans isn't very good though, and thats American. I beleive Anime shouldn't be American made unless its good.

EDIT: Oh, and that Kappa Mikey show needs to die a horrible death.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

I'd like to point out that most of anime was spawned from a Japanese guy copying Betty Boop.

Anyway, it's just American companies trying to capitalize on the demand for it right now. Which they're free to do. I'd say the quality of the copy speaks for itself.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

It does bother me the way the creators of these shows pander to anime fans with superficial staples of the medium like huge sweatdrops and superdeformity. It's just a really cheap marketing tactic, saying, "Hey, kids, you like that Pokemon stuff? This show we've got going here is just like it! Check it out, the protagonist has a huge mouth and everything! Backgrounds dissolve into speed lines during action sequences! Kawaii neko baka!!!"

But I couldn't care less as to whether the shows themselves are good or not. It's not like there isn't plenty of anime that's total garbage.

[Sylvie]

Yeah, I know about the Betty Boop thing. But his "copy" actually turned out to be good. Now we take anime and produce terrible, terrible crap.

[Cloudstrife4003]

I hate american anime!!1 I like the regular japanese anime-I like the japanese ppls art style-the americans just screwed it up..I agree with u genji..

[ShunNakamura]

One thing to note is that we don't see the sucky Japanese animes since they fail before they ever reach our shores. Likely there is a similar percentage of american made stuff that fails as there is japanese anime stuff that fails. We just don't see it.

Of course I could be wrong(I haven't tallied up the totals for each side).

Anyways as for those mentioned. I didn't mind teen titans too much. A bit kiddish but those are the people that watch anime*.

*at least here anime is seen as child'ish by all but those who watch it. Personally I like to introduce them to Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien and see them call *that* childish :p.

[AdVenT]

American anime sucks

[edczxcvbnm]

These shows are pretty unoriginal anyways so it isn't like they would have been any better had they used a different style. Why can't we get some more good shows like Invader Zim or Cat Scratch?

[Dynast-Kid]

I watched this one anime on Nickolodeon called "Avatar".I thought it was kinda good.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Avatar isn't anime.

[Hambone]

Didn't America make Full Metal Alchemist? That's a cool anime.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

No, we didn't.

[Zeromus_X]

FMA was most assuredly made in Japan.

And yeah, it's a trip. :cat:

Edit: Kishi got to it first...

[Hambone]

Wow. We must really suck.

[XxSephirothxX]

Anime is popular with the youth these days, and that obviously leads studios to creating anime-esque shows to capitalize on the success. The simple solution is to not watch crap American animation, and watch the few good shows that are out there. Invader Zim was fantastic, as ed metioned, and I'm sure there's still SOME good American animated shows out there. As Kishi also pointed out, it's not like all Japanese animation is good, either.

[rubah]

How many of you guys are defining 'good anime' by the fact that it comes from your beloved Japan?

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

I do define good anime as anime coming from Japan. I also define bad anime as coming from Japan.

Because anime comes from Japan.

[Rye]

These shows are pretty unoriginal anyways so it isn't like they would have been any better had they used a different style. Why can't we get some more good shows like Invader Zim or Cat Scratch?

Amen, ed. Invader Zim was brilliant.

[Sephex]

I do define good anime as anime coming from Japan. I also define bad anime as coming from Japan.

Because anime comes from Japan.

Brilliant! :eek:

[Dynast-Kid]

I miss Invader Zim...

[feona17]

Technically, I don't define it as Anime because it's not Japanese artists or based in Japan. It's usually crap. So I still look at them as american cartoons trying to do better, but can't. Nothing can match the quality that Anime is.

Don't smurfing get me started on the crapola that Totally Spies! is. That needs to just die.

[Shiny]

American anime? All anime is, is a type of animation. Americans call this cartoons and Japanese call it anime. There is no such thing as American anime. Just as there is no such thing as Japanese cartoons.

[feona17]

American anime? All anime is, is a type of animation. Americans call this cartoons and Japanese call it anime.

Yeah but Japanese animation has... certain qualities and unique plots and all that.

[edczxcvbnm]

Totally Spies is totally tubular!

[Sylvie]

Totally Spies is a complete puddle of piss on our beloved television.

[Shiny]

Yeah but Japanese animation has... certain qualities and unique plots and all that.

American and Japanese have different animation styles mostly; I'll give you that. But, the only thing that defines something as anime is that it comes from Japan. The biggest misconception people make is that it's anime if it has a certain style.

[feona17]

Yeah but Japanese animation has... certain qualities and unique plots and all that.

American and Japanese have different animation styles mostly; I'll give you that. But, the only thing that defines something as anime is that it comes from Japan. The biggest misconception people make is that it's anime if it has a certain style.

:p Yeah but you've got to admit that anime is pretty different from something such as... Superman or Care Bears. You get a different feel from 'cartoons' and 'anime'.

[Ryushikaze]

At Shiny: Actually, that's not true. Bugs Bunny is Anime, to the japanese. 'Anime' is a truncuation of 'Animation', and they use it to refer to Japanese, American, Canadian, etc. animation, noting the difference as 'Nihongo no anime' or 'America no anime'.

The only thing that makes anime is that someone is describing it as such.

Of course, I don't dissaprove of using it as an identifying name, provided two things are done-
1- You do not treat it like it's a style. It isn't. And shame on you for thinking that.
2- You also use similar locale terminology to refer to Korean, French, and other animations and comics. No special status for the Japanese, ya hear?

At Feona: No. I don't. Because trying to use EITHER Superman OR Care bears as a litmus test for american cartoons is like using DBZ or Hamtaro as a litmus for Japanese cartoons.

[feona17]

-_- Sorry there buddy. So you're saying that anime is just an abbreviation, therefore making this whole thread pointless?

[Ryushikaze]

Pretty much, yeah.

Well, not entirely. You just have to discuss more about the attempts at copying the elements commonly found in 'popular in america' japanese cartoons, which IS a valid topic, and technically what the thread was about to begin with.

[Shiny]

At Shiny: Actually, that's not true. Bugs Bunny is Anime, to the japanese. 'Anime' is a truncuation of 'Animation', and they use it to refer to Japanese, American, Canadian, etc. animation, noting the difference as 'Nihongo no anime' or 'America no anime'.

Yes. The word 'anime' is derived from the English word 'animation' however it is a term that the Japanese use to describe their animation. Americans commonly use the word cartoons and therefore Bugs Bunny and the other Looney Toons are cartoons as they've been called for the past 76 years.

[Sylvie]

Anime is short for Animeshon. Which is from the english word Animation.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

"Japanimation," then.

[Ryushikaze]

Yes. The word 'anime' is derived from the English word 'animation' however it is a term that the Japanese use to describe their animation. Americans commonly use the word cartoons and therefore Bugs Bunny and the other Looney Toons are cartoons as they've been called for the past 76 years.

You read my post and completely ignored it. THE JAPANESE REFER TO AMERICAN CARTOONS BY THE SAME WORD THEY REFER TO THEIR OWN. THEY ALSO MAKE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN 'ANIME' AND 'ANIMATION'.

And sure, Rukishi, Japanimation is fine, though it would probably be easiest to just use 'Blank' Animation, where 'Blank' is country of origin.

[Shiny]

I didn't ignore your post as I agreed with the point you made in it saying how anime is derived from the word animation. And I don't need caps to understand that you basically proved my point. Which is that Japanese=anime and American=cartoons. The Japanese refer to American cartoons as anime, because that is what they call animation there. Americans do not call Japanese animation cartoons here, because most believe that it is a different form of animation all together. Some Japanese and American animation is similar and some isn't.

[Tavrobel]

And sure, Rukishi, Japanimation is fine, though it would probably be easiest to just use 'Blank' Animation, where 'Blank' is country of origin.

Afghanistanimation.

Don't let the great Satan tempt you with the Western Culture. You must remain true to the Taliban Warlords!

[LunarWeaver]

Now I feel disgusting and sticky inside for liking Teen Titans.

I see the valid point though. A lot of it seems like a cash-in on what will make them money, what with flaunting the sweatdrops and common other common elements. Not to mention networks butcher most anime (OMFGIMEANTJAPANIMATION) and make it aimed at kids in America, and now American-made cartoons aimed at younger audiences is now doing even more damage to the image. Why America thinks animation = children (for the majority anyway) is beyond me. But that's kind of diving into something else.

Anywho, yeah down with the man and all that.

[Markus. D]

I dont mind americans dubbing over anime.


but if they made it themselves it wouldnt be anime (french/japanese cult animation) it would be.... Amerine *shrugs*

[Ryushikaze]

I didn't ignore your post as I agreed with the point you made in it saying how anime is derived from the word animation. And I don't need caps to understand that you basically proved my point. Which is that Japanese=anime and American=cartoons. The Japanese refer to American cartoons as anime, because that is what they call animation there. Americans do not call Japanese animation cartoons here, because most believe that it is a different form of animation all together. Some Japanese and American animation is similar and some isn't.

Except it doesn't prove your point, or at least not what I was responding too. What I was responding to was

'I'll give you that. But, the only thing that defines something as anime is that it comes from Japan.'

Which is simply not the case. Now, for Americans, it is a commonly held assumption that the words have a different meaning, but given that the word is used where it originated to mean animation of any country, and is a derivation of 'animation', period, it's an incorrect one.

Loanwords do not change definitions simply because someone does not understand them.

[Shiny]

Which is simply not the case. Now, for Americans, it is a commonly held assumption that the words have a different meaning, but given that the word is used where it originated to mean animation of any country, and is a derivation of 'animation', period, it's an incorrect one.
I never said anime had a different meaning. Anime and cartoons are the same thing; they just come from different countries.

[feona17]

But we all agree there's a difference in styles between Japanese and American, right right?

[Roto13]

"Japanimation," then.

I hate that word. >_<

[Shiny]

But we all agree there's a difference in styles between Japanese and American, right right?
Yes. For the most part there is some what of a difference in style. That's not saying much, because almost everything America tries to do Japan always tries to top us and vice versa. :(

[Ryushikaze]

The difference in style between japanese and american animation is miniscule compared to the difference in style between american animation and american animation or japanese animation and japanese animation.

I look at Jojo's bizarre adventure and I see more in common with the X-men than I do with Flame of Recca. I look at Lodoss and see more in common with the dungeons and dragons cartoon (Which is amusing, as Lodoss is itself a converted D&D campaign) than I do with Slayers.

Attempting to shoehorn american or japanese animation or comic books into an easily defined niche is an amazing disservice to both sides, but especially to the american independent comic artists and authors out there, who really try and find a unique or realistic- or both- style.

[Vyk]

All I have to say is I liked Teen Titans. I don't know if its changed since I last saw an episode. Though I admit they cashed in on it I think they did a good job of carving out a slight style of their own from it as well. I think they did a decent job. As for the rest I'll agree. Totally Spies irks me. Yet Samurai Jack makes me smile. I can't really say what makes certain ones different. I think the makers have more respect for the source material they're leeching from and it shows in their work. Where as others are just sorta "Me too!"ing it

[Avarice-ness]

Dear person who asked if FMA was american:

If FMA was american, then that american would prolly be in court for 'persuading the young in terroristic liberal and anti-religious ways'

I so want to make a cartoon that will throw me in jail because it's to intelligent for the world to love. :)

[Slade]

I don't see what the big deal is with so-called 'American Anime'. I tend to like it better than alot of real Japanese Anime. It depends. Teen Titans, Xiaolin Showdown and Totally Spies were all enjoyable in my opinion. I find all these card game and battle anime titles more irritating, eg: Yu Gi Oh, Beyblades and the likes, and they ARE from Japan.

[MJN SEIFER]

I find it really annoying that America is "taking over" Anime.(at least some pathetic attempts) Like this new show on Nick there's Kappa and on Cartoon Network they have Xiaolin Showdown, Teen Titans, (possibly)Pokemon. They are all pitiful attempts at Anime. First off most of they have horrible voice acting, second they all hardly any basis on Anime, and third they all usually have a stupid story line. If you ask me I think pretty much all of the above, and more, should be taken off air. What do you think?


Well T Titans (Not "Teen Titans") Is GERMAN not American. Xioaln Showdown is American but in no way tries to be Anime, And Pokemon is a very popular Japanese show.

So the Japanese are trying to be Japanese?

[Catflap]

Wa! No... Well, we'll always have Studio Ghibli. *Dances to My Neighbor Totoro theme tune*

[Cloudstrife4003]

I like flcl or fooly cooly!! Am i special for understanding it?

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Stay on-topic.

[Materia Hunter Yuffie]

American Anime sucks.....
I saw a preview for the Kappa show on Nick and I just shook my head.

[Cloudstrife4003]

The only anime i don't like is hentai..It means pervert..If u do not know what hentai is-Then u don't wanna know..My bro watches it...Horrible stuff...It's the only anime i don't like,and this is coming from a guy...

[MJN SEIFER]

It's better than porn though.

[ShunNakamura]

To stop the silly anime deal



an·i·me Audio pronunciation of "anime" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-m)
n.

A style of animation developed in Japan, characterized by stylized colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sex.

And here is what the encyclopedia says! (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Anime)

That should settle that both the dictionary and the encyclopedia define it as such. All that is left to argue is what other languages mean by the word. However, we are english speakers and that is what the english langauge defines anime as.


As for Animation made in america(or whereever) after the style of Anime I take it as it was ment to be. They aren't serious stuff like KGNE or FMA or the ilk, because the target audience tends to be younger. And if you are looking for a non-serious show that is good for laughs and entertainment many of them can do that(totally spies while annoying for me at times was a good watch if I was bored, so was teen titans).

So I guess my gripe is that I have yet to see serious american anime which is what I like about anime. The fact that it can be serious it can be highly emotional, it can be dark etc. I haven't seen that range in american anime yet.

[feona17]

This has been stated before, but this might be more clear, and has a few more points.


The Japanese term for animation is アニメーション (animēshon, pronounced: /ɑnimeːɕon/), written in katakana. It is a direct transliteration and re-borrowed loanword of the English term "animation", though there exists a theory that the word comes from the French animé or "les dessins animés" (animated drawings). The Japanese term is abbreviated as アニメ (anime, pronounced: /ɑnime/). Both the original and abbreviated forms are valid and interchangeable in Japanese, but as could be expected the abbreviated form is more commonly used.

As with a few other Japanese words such as Pokémon and Kobo Abé, anime is sometimes spelled as animé in English with an acute accent over the final e to cue the reader that the letter is pronounced as [e].

In Japan, the term is a broad one, and does not specify an animation's nation of origin or style. In English speaking countries the word is used usually only to refer to animated programming of Japanese origin. However, non-Japanese works are sometimes called anime if they borrow stylistically from the Japanese animation.

[I Am Stoner]

I do define good anime as anime coming from Japan. I also define bad anime as coming from Japan.

Because anime comes from Japan.

Very true answer, buddy.

[ShunNakamura]

This has been stated before, but this might be more clear, and has a few more points.


The Japanese term for animation is アニメーション (animēshon, pronounced: /ɑnimeːɕon/), written in katakana. It is a direct transliteration and re-borrowed loanword of the English term "animation", though there exists a theory that the word comes from the French animé or "les dessins animés" (animated drawings). The Japanese term is abbreviated as アニメ (anime, pronounced: /ɑnime/). Both the original and abbreviated forms are valid and interchangeable in Japanese, but as could be expected the abbreviated form is more commonly used.

As with a few other Japanese words such as Pokémon and Kobo Abé, anime is sometimes spelled as animé in English with an acute accent over the final e to cue the reader that the letter is pronounced as [e].

In Japan, the term is a broad one, and does not specify an animation's nation of origin or style. In English speaking countries the word is used usually only to refer to animated programming of Japanese origin. However, non-Japanese works are sometimes called anime if they borrow stylistically from the Japanese animation.



Two things.

One-
We are not in japan(or I am not) nor are we speaking japanese. Therefor, the english termonolgy is likely what we are using. The english word means just what the dictionary says. Simply put it doesn't matter how the japanese use it because we are speaking english and the english use of the word is clearly defined in the dictionary are encyclopedia.

Two-
Meh, screw it, what I was going to say is not really needed and should likely be known already.

[Ryushikaze]

Two things.

One-
We are not in japan(or I am not) nor are we speaking japanese. Therefor, the english termonolgy is likely what we are using. The english word means just what the dictionary says. Simply put it doesn't matter how the japanese use it because we are speaking english and the english use of the word is clearly defined in the dictionary are encyclopedia.

Two-
Meh, screw it, what I was going to say is not really needed and should likely be known already.

Three- Loan words do not change definition because they are loanwords. The dictionary entry should be listed under slang- since that's what it is- and the encyclopedia entry should be alterred as well, since the entire point of an encyclopedia is to be comprehensive about a subject it addresses. If it doesn't, then it needs to be updated.

[Vyk]

That dictionary entry was stupid. Animation involving futuristic violence and sex? Have you seen Heavy Metal? That was made by us westerners. And I don't think anyone would call it anime. What we refer to as anime is all about the style, not the content. Anime to me doesn't equate to futuristic, violence, and/or sex. Sorry, but I think Wiki wins this battle

[ShunNakamura]

Three- Loan words do not change definition because they are loanwords. The dictionary entry should be listed under slang- since that's what it is- and the encyclopedia entry should be alterred as well, since the entire point of an encyclopedia is to be comprehensive about a subject it addresses. If it doesn't, then it needs to be updated.

Ah, but until the dictionary/encyclopedia change that is what the english word means. In the end what that means is that no one can get on the backs of those who use the word anime as japanese animation. If you want the definition changed go write a letter to those who handle the dictionaries and encyclopedia.


And to requote it thanks to vyk


an·i·me Audio pronunciation of "anime" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-m)
n.

A style of animation developed in Japan, characterized by stylized colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sex.


The major part of the definition is "A style of animation developed in Japan".

The second bit is like many other entries that say particually or especially or any other of those words that are trying to give examples.
And plenty of anime contains at least two of the above. Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien has 3 out of four present somewhere in it. Robotech has 3 out of 4 present in some point(and depending on how you take the sex part of the entry it may even have that[basically some in my area characterize something as sex pretty broadly, next will be an example]). Sailor Moon has 3 out of 4(colorful art, violence, and according to the parents in my area sex). The Gundam series has 3 out of 4. etc....


you get the drift it isn't the best definition ever but many animes do contain at least some of the elements above. Meaning that anyone who is totally unfamilar with anime could easily characterize it as such. heck I know many people in my area who do characterize it as such, the reason being they see many futuristic, violent, colorful anime with alot of sex appeal in it. Therefor, it would be fair to say that for many english speakers anime could be distinguished from other forms of popular animation by such.

List some popular animes-

Gundam series(at least was popular, dunno about now). Futuristic with violence and was fairly colorful if memory serves.
DBZ. Violent and colorful.
Inuyasha. Violent and colorful, and possibly sex depending on how you read that part of the entry(people here have a habbit of using the word sex to mean anything related to sex(in other words sex apeal falls into it)).
Naruto. Violent and colorful.

other then gundam I just named off some I saw lastnight while flipping channels.

But we have gotten lots of mecha anime over here(futuristic) I know. Just about the only part of the entry that gets me is the sex one. however, if they meant 'dealing with sex' such as sex appeal then I could understand it. The dratted fanfare is one my big gripes about anime.

[Mercen-X]

America doesn't make 'anime.'

[Ryushikaze]

WHEN A LOANWORD IS BORROWED, THE DEFINITION DOES NOT CHANGE EVEN IF THE WORD IS USED INCORRECTLY. If we started using patio to refer exclusively to a specific subset of porch, when the language of origin does NOT make this distinction, then WE ARE USING THE WORD WRONG.

So guess what, the dictionary definition is not incorrect, BUT IT IS INCOMPLETE. Actually, it's incorrect, too- it actually excludes a significant portion of that which it seeks to define.

As for your '3 out of the 4' argument, so does Avatar. So does Danny Phantom. Reboot had all damn four. So does Totally Spies.

A useful definition would manage to separate the defined from what it supposedly does not define.
And come to think of it, 'developed in japan' is bull<img src="/xxx.gif"><img src="/xxx.gif"><img src="/xxx.gif"><img src="/xxx.gif"> too. Betty Gorram Boop is the stylistic origin of Anime, and Osamu Tezuka said himself he wanted to look like Disney.

[Vyk]

Also I really don't think a viable definition should have the hitch that "for most people its this way". A definition should be ... well.. definite.

[ShunNakamura]

The 3 out of four argument was in reply to vyk's response. What I was saying is that much of the anime that is popularized here can indeed be at least partially characterized by those traits.

Personally I have never aggreed with it when the dictionary adds thos extra bits on; however, many entries have things of that ilk, and what they are there for is to further help indicate what qualifes as taht word to those unfamilar with it.


Obviousally you are wrong on the change of the definition. Dictionary and Encyclopedia both agree, the common usage here agrees, etc. You do realize words CHANGE over time? Well whether or not that knowledge is available to you, words DO change. This means that while it may have once meant one thing it can change to mean another. There are many examples of the words changing.

Regardless Anime is now defined in the english language as meaning Japanese style animation.

[Ryushikaze]

Then what is the japanese style?

If you think there is such a thing, you are wrong.

Of course, it cheeses me right off that korean stuff is also called Anime by the same smegheads who want to insist that the word ONLY means japanese stuff.

Listen, the dictionary and the encyclopedia may be in basic agreement, but they are incorrect in their omission of details, especially since there is are a lot of people who can and will insist on the most accurate usage of loanwords, and they are those who are actually knowledgeable about the language.
Of course, it should always be remembered that newer definitions do NOT override the older ones, and the dictionary should include all in usage, and the encyclopedia all the information. NEITHER DO THIS.

Also, the encyclopedia should not be biased by language of writing, another reason it should be corrected so that it includes all the relevant information.

[ShunNakamura]

The dictionary uses what is I term as the common usage. It can't possibly hope to include all uses without having 24/7 spybots on every english speaking member on the planet.

The dictionary is charged with making available the common definitions of words in the english language(I will also tack on american region for extra benifit, I don't know what the Austrailian English dictionary says on anime afterall).

And I can indeed vouch that just about anyone I speak to uses anime in the way the dictionary defines it.

The only ones that don't are the ones using it in the Japanese way. And since that isn't the English/American usage the dictionary here doesn't list it.

Perhaps if enough people begin using it in that way it will be added, but currently it is only a select few online I have run into who insist on that usage.

[Ryushikaze]

The problem is that Anime is a loanword. The dictionary is supposed to recognize these loanwords and give their original definition. Corrupted local definitions are slang usages of these words.

[ShunNakamura]

I really don't see anywhere stating that a loanword has to have the exact same definition as what it did originally.

Such as some japanese uses of english words are not how we use them(or so I have read). Etc....

Anyways just to quote the encyclopedia "For example, anime (アニメ) is gairaigo derived from the word "animation", but has been reborrowed into English with the meaning of "animation from Japan""

"egregious - Originally described something that was remarkably good. The word is from the Latin egregius (outstanding) which is from e-, ex- (out of) + greg- or grex (flock). Now it means something that is remarkably bad or flagrant."

This is to show that a borrowed word does not need to carry the same meaning, that it can indeed evolve to be something different in the language. If you notice the dictionary does not carry the original definition of egregious.

[Ryushikaze]

I wouldn't call any latin word a 'loanword' of english since modern english is the offspring of roughly four languages- of which one is latin- mutating into each other due to cultural contamination. This is a totally different process than deliberately borrowing a word wholesale from another language.

Let's use a different example. Katana. The word means sword. Any sword. Period. Though the term has been used in both history and modern media to refer- because of its popularity- to a specific type of katana- the bastard sword wielded by the samurai- the word does NOT mean solely this type of sword, and actually the particular idiom is only true when the samurai no katana is worn in a particular fashion- it otherwise becomes a tachi. However, it is still a katana- in the broad sense- when worn as a tachi, and it is still a tachi when worn as a katana. This is similar to the inane distinction made between japanese and american animation, when the two share as much style as they diverge.

That's straying slightly off topic, actually. Let me return back to the point. While one can use the term Katana to refer to a particular type of sword, the word does mean sword, and can in fact be used to apply to a british sabre, the same way that the word sabre can be used to apply to the samurai sword. The terms are inclusive, not exclusive, as anime is.

Similarly, well meaning but somewhat ignorant fans of japanese anime use the simple term anime to mean solely the anime that comes from japan. This is a similar usage to 'katana'. It works as slang, but not as a comprehensive definition.

Y'know, it strikes me, the self same people who want to change the meaning of anime to make it more special are the same sort of people who fight tooth and nail for things to remain as they were in the animation they so adore. The irony.

[ShunNakamura]

English usage of Katana

dictionary- a curved single-edged sword traditionally used by Japanese samurai

Encyclopedia- The katana (刀) is the Japanese sabre or longsword (大刀 daitō), although many Japanese use this word generically as a catch-all word for sword. Katana (pronounced ka-ta-na) is the kun'yomi (Japanese reading) of the kanji 刀 ; the on'yomi (Chinese reading) is tō. In Mandarin, it is pronounced dāo. While the word has no separate plural form in Japanese, it has been adopted as a loan word by the English language, where it is commonly pluralised as katanas.

Once again a loan word that is slightly different when used in the english language. Loan words do NOT need to have the exact same meaning.



Now as a note, I got no problem with people who use the word anime to refer to all forms of animation(since I see it as a viable use of it), however, it IS defined as japanese style animation. Meaning any who use it that way are well within being right and shouldn't have the 'purists' trying to shove them around. Their use is just as right as the 'purists'(and actually in this region that is the correct usage; however, the internet breaks down region barriers so I could care less who's culture you use when using words, just make sure others know what you mean).

[Vyk]

He wasn't trying to shove anyone around. He pointed out a corrective bit a of trivia, and got understandably irritated when it was not only ignored but argued against incorrectly. And then came the retarded dictionary "definition", that certainly had to be debated for its lack of actualy sustaining a definition. Its just a debate that's continuing because counterpoints keep coming. He's not necissarily trying to shove it down yours or anyone else's throat. Just pointed out the usage was incorrect. The way a lot of people like to point out that the "common" usage of OTAKU is incorrect. We accept this, shrug, and move on.

The fact remains, anime is a term that originated in Japan to refer to animation. Nothing less distinctive than that. Animation. Any animation. All animation.

You can argue that well the word is japanese in origin, and since the japanese apparently have no word to make a distinction towards their own style of animation, and we have our own term for animation (cartoons), I'll use their word for animation to refer to specifically their animation.

Which is apparently exactly the same thing that happened with the word katana.

Not a big deal. The only reason this debate got so heated is you found it prudent to vigilantly defend an arguably incomplete (if not incompitent) "definition".

[JKTrix]

Hopefully this arguement on the 'definition' can find its way back to the actual topic.

There are some 'American Anime'--sort of. The show IGPX, for example, was created by Production IG (Ghost in the Shell) in Japan alongside Cartoon Network. 'Spider Riders' is another show where it's a collaboration between a Japanese studio and a North American company (I think it was in Canada). I recently read somewhere that a Japanese production studio will be producing 'anime' specifically for the American audience. Hopefully this will improve the quality of some of these other American attempts at the stereotypical Japanese Anime Style.

However, the fact is that a vast majority of American cartoons are made for children. There are quite a few shows that are aimed at more mature audiences such as Aeon Flux, Heavy Metal, The Simpsons and the American stuff that comes on Adult Swim, but the fact remains that 'cartoon watching' is socially classified as "For Kids".

In Japan it's a little different. While there are tons of anime made for children, it isn't as dominant as it is in the west. It is probably still regarded as a juvenile activity, but it doesn't have the same social stigma over there as it would if an adult in the West started talking about cartoons in general. Of course, there are the 'otaku' who are obsessive about this stuff--they are generally looked down upon.

It's easy to see how the different mindsets of these two areas can affect the type of animation you see normally. In the US, it's basically a strictly "for Kids" activity. The Simpsons was a freak of nature. Other shows like Family Guy and Futurama enjoyed some success, but fluctuated in their airtime. The 'mature' oriented cartoons don't catch fire among their target audience as well as the child oriented ones become popular in their target audience.
In Japan, anime is serious business. They don't have the critical limitation of 'cartoons are for kids', so they can spread out along any and every genre and generally provide a more fulfilling experience. More often than not, shows have a focus. They have a definite goal, a definite end, and an unraveling story that continues as the show progresses. The sense of purpose in some of the higher quality shows is one of the things that truly sets it apart from most of its American counterparts, simply because they're targeting a more mature audience who can actually sit still long enough to soak everything in.

While Japanese animation does everything American animation does, Japanese animation is able to be much more expansive in terms of what it produces. Comparing the two is possible, but must be limited to shows that are created with similar intentions (i.e. can't compare Bugs Bunny to Evangelion, something like Pokemon to Powerpuff girls would be more appropriate). It isn't entirely fair to say 'Anime is better! Look at FMA!', because there are no comparable American animated shows.

So to reiterate, Japanese animation is bigger, broader, more diverse than American animated shows are. Comparisons are negligible (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=negligible).

[ShunNakamura]

He wasn't trying to shove anyone around. He pointed out a corrective bit a of trivia, and got understandably irritated when it was not only ignored but argued against incorrectly.


Meaning any who use it that way are well within being right and shouldn't have the 'purists' trying to shove them around.

I really dislike failure of logic.

I don't see anywhere around where I mentioned shoving that was a direct reference to Ryushikaze. Just to 'purists' in general. And often times I run into them they are both uppity and rude.

And besides if it was really as much as a no issue it would have refered to orgininally as a point of trivia, and this would not have become an issue.

And presenting the english sources that define and present usages of english words is really the only way to officially argue the english meaning of the word.


And then came the retarded dictionary "definition", that certainly had to be debated for its lack of actualy sustaining a definition. Its just a debate that's continuing because counterpoints keep coming.

The definition isn't *that bad*. Not as good as it could be, but it sums up the common usuage decently enough to stand. And the encyclopedia doesn't throw on the textra stuff.



Just pointed out the usage was incorrect. The way a lot of people like to point out that the "common" usage of OTAKU is incorrect. We accept this, shrug, and move on.

and I just pointed out that the usage(when concerning the english language) is correct, and the 'purists' usage is incorrect.



The fact remains, anime is a term that originated in Japan to refer to animation. Nothing less distinctive than that. Animation. Any animation. All animation.


For example, anime (アニメ) is gairaigo derived from the word "animation", but has been reborrowed into English with the meaning of "animation from Japan"

In japan anime means animation, in English it means animation from japan. Pretty simple. I have already shown that loan words do not need to retain thier original meaning.


You can argue that well the word is japanese in origin, and since the japanese apparently have no word to make a distinction towards their own style of animation, and we have our own term for animation (cartoons), I'll use their word for animation to refer to specifically their animation.


Or I could argue that that is exactly what it means, seeing as how the dictionary, the encyclopedia AND the common usage all agree on that definition?


Which is apparently exactly the same thing that happened with the word katana.

A loan word that didn't keep it's original/historic definition? No big deal, languages evolve.


Not a big deal. The only reason this debate got so heated is you found it prudent to vigilantly defend an arguably incomplete (if not incompitent) "definition".
The definition appears fairly complete,though there are things I would change about it. Rather the reason it got so long is because people such as yourself and Ryushikaze are unwilling to admit that the correct english usage is as the dictionary defines it.


And anyways it seems to me that the original post was indeed trying to say that others were wrong for using the English definition of the word.

[outerlimit]

ARGh Im sorry I didn't read the whole topic but I gotta say how mucH THIS INFURATIES ME

Stupid american gaijin studios cannot CAN NOT make anime on par with the true craftsmen no matter how hard they may try! They lack th spirit and heritage! IT is a moneymakin ploy and not from the heart. ARGH I cant wait to leave this place and get away from these cheap knockoffs :hot:

[Ryushikaze]

^ Explain DBZ and GT. Moneymaking ploys to the core.

::Rolls eyes::

[ShunNakamura]

^ Explain DBZ and GT. Moneymaking ploys to the core.

::Rolls eyes::

I just have to quote this one for the truth :p. A company animation or otherwise is going to be trying to make money. Of course some are more of money grubbers then others.

[Ryushikaze]

And besides if it was really as much as a no issue it would have refered to orgininally as a point of trivia, and this would not have become an issue.

It wasn't an issue til people tried to say that I was wrong for using the original, inclusive definition.


And presenting the english sources that define and present usages of english words is really the only way to officially argue the english meaning of the word.

Except that the dictionary definition is a failure, and the encyclopedia is incredibly lacking in info. I can criticize sources if said sources are lacking.


The definition isn't *that bad*. Not as good as it could be, but it sums up the common usuage decently enough to stand. And the encyclopedia doesn't throw on the textra stuff.

Except in the common usage, toons from places like America, Korea, Canada, and France are still called Anime.


and I just pointed out that the usage(when concerning the english language) is correct, and the 'purists' usage is incorrect.

Except that the usage is not universal, the dictionary definition is rather useless, and the 'purists' are on equally solid ground, and in this case, we're not even saying that you can't use it that way, we're just saying it's not the ONLY definition.
Definitions do not vanish between languages. They only vanish as they fall into disuse.


In japan anime means animation, in English it means animation from japan. Pretty simple. I have already shown that loan words do not need to retain thier original meaning.

No, but you do need to show that this makes the original definition invalid.


A loan word that didn't keep it's original/historic definition? No big deal, languages evolve.

A loan word whose 'common' definition suffices, but is technically incorrect as it ignores a signifigant portion of what the word actually means.


The definition appears fairly complete,though there are things I would change about it. Rather the reason it got so long is because people such as yourself and Ryushikaze are unwilling to admit that the correct english usage is as the dictionary defines it.

And people such as yourself are too pigheaded to admit that this does not make the other definition invalid.

[ShunNakamura]

Can people read? I heard illiteracy was striking our shores but I thought it was a hit and miss thing... not super conclusive. I do not like having to requote myself because someone misreads.



Now as a note, I got no problem with people who use the word anime to refer to all forms of animation(since I see it as a viable use of it), however, it IS defined as japanese style animation. Meaning any who use it that way are well within being right and shouldn't have the 'purists' trying to shove them around. Their use is just as right as the 'purists'(and actually in this region that is the correct usage; however, the internet breaks down region barriers so I could care less who's culture you use when using words, just make sure others know what you mean).



It wasn't an issue til people tried to say that I was wrong for using the original, inclusive definition.


And I believe you were the first one to say someone was wrong for using it to refer specifically to animation from japan.


At Shiny: Actually, that's not true. Bugs Bunny is Anime, to the japanese. 'Anime' is a truncuation of 'Animation', and they use it to refer to Japanese, American, Canadian, etc. animation, noting the difference as 'Nihongo no anime' or 'America no anime'.

The only thing that makes anime is that someone is describing it as such.

Of course, I don't dissaprove of using it as an identifying name, provided two things are done-
1- You do not treat it like it's a style. It isn't. And shame on you for thinking that.
2- You also use similar locale terminology to refer to Korean, French, and other animations and comics. No special status for the Japanese, ya hear?
.

What it sounds like to me is you were saying they were wrong.(if you would have just kept it with the first paragraph, it likely would have been fine since you were mention how another culture uses it)

What I am saying is that the ENGLISH use of the word(and this is easy to proof until you present an official english source that says the dictionary is wrong when it concerns the english usage of the word) is "style of animation developed in japan".

They are right with the use of the word. You are using a non-standard(when concerning english) use of the word. Doesn't make you wrong, unless you try to claim that is the english use.

[Ryushikaze]

And you failed to quote what I was originally responding to.


But, the only thing that defines something as anime is that it comes from Japan.

Seeing as there are other definitions of what anime is, this statement is not true.

[Shiny]

Americans sometimes share a similar style of drawing as the Japanese, but that does not define something as being anime, because Americans commonly use the word cartoon as stated before.

[ShunNakamura]

They were fairly close. To put it simply all definitions of anime deal with how it comes from japan(whether it is a style or animation).

And don't try and spout other definitions off. It is fairly obvious that if you are speaking english that you are using the word in the english way unless you specifically specify otherwise. For english use they were close enough to being right.

Edit-- and as a note I did read the post you were replying to... I just don't feel like quoting whole conversations over and over again.

[Ryushikaze]

They were fairly close. To put it simply all definitions of anime deal with how it comes from japan(whether it is a style or animation).

Except not all definitions do.


And don't try and spout other definitions off. It is fairly obvious that if you are speaking english that you are using the word in the english way unless you specifically specify otherwise. For english use they were close enough to being right.

Y'know, for someone who says 'purists' are uppity and rude, you're acting that way now. You're pleading that a perfectl valid definition is somehow invalid, simply because it is a foreign- and source- definition, and you're also claiming that there is only one english way, when the very fact that we're having this argument, when Wiki- a source mostly defined by the popular interpretation lists both, is ample evidence that there is more than one english definition in common usage.


Edit-- and as a note I did read the post you were replying to... I just don't feel like quoting whole conversations over and over again.

It's not the lack of quoting, it's the lack of context. You neglected to mention I was responding to a very specific comment, which was actually incorrect.

At shiny: And they commonly don't.

[ShunNakamura]

I would love for you to use wiki as an only source at any of the colleges or schools at my area... I have had freinds who get an instant zero for using that as thier only sourch. It does not count as a valid official source.

And even then Wiki supports me by saying that in English countries it is used in that specific way.


As for that post I do something called reading inbetween the lines. See the person was speaking english, was an english speaker(to my knowledge) and likely resides in an english country. Now I read inbetween see that they were likely talking about the english use of the word.

[Vyk]

Its just sad that the Wiki is more refined and therefor arguably more accurate in its definition than an official source. Perhaps a different dictionary's definition would have been a good idea. I personally have no problem with using the term anime to refer towards a style of animation that originated in Japan. I just don't like that it supposedly refers to a style that originated in Japan and has to have 3 out of 4 of the following: colorful, mech, violence, and sex. When some of my particularly favorite animes involve only one. The colorful style anime is commonly known for.

But then that of course is no personal problem with you, Shun, just whoever you used as a dictionary managed to find a pet peeve of mine. But I think I'll just sit the rest of this argument out. You're both pretty pig-headed and stubborn :] No offense

[ShunNakamura]

I don't care for that last bit either(I would cut it off). The 3 out of four was just me trying to show that alot of anime does have it... I sure hope anime doesn't have to have 3 out of four of those characteristics :P.

Also I will take this time to quickly make warning that I am in and have been in a really bad mood.... so I have likely been rude and nasty as is usual when I am in a bad mood. Right now I am just so exhausted from my illness draining all my strength that I am more amiable(basically I am too tired to get my hackles up). Just wanted to make sure everyone knows it isn't anything personal or based on this argument, I have been nasty to anyone when my mouth opens. And just cause I love this analogy. Generally when someone is shortempered it is described as a short fuse ready to go off. Me, when as ill as I am, am not a short fuse. I am a keg of gunpowder that is already smoldering. So I just take this time to appoligize for excessive rudeness and nastyness.

As for the wiki, I use it myself, but I never use anything from it(except to make jokes from) unless I have another source that agrees with it. I just use it to see if that topic might interest me. In addition they somtimes provide nice links.

[feona17]

Yeesh, people are so touchy about this subject. Okay, um, basically anime is just animation. Everybody got that part? Alright good.

Over here in North America, Europe and all that jazz, we refer to anime as animation originating in Japan. But, that's just slang. Right? Understand? It's not actually 'anime' or anything, it's just animation from that specfic country, we, gave anime that meaning.

We've taken that slang so far that it actually becomes a real word describing the style of Japanese animation. Virtually most if not all animation in Japan has that certain style, and everyone here knows what I'm referring to.

Now, the Japanese could easily refer to "American" animation as anime. Because anime IS animation, right? The Japanese could easily say that American animation has a certain style, and if a show that originated in Japan were to draw from this so called American style, it's the same as when American animators are influnced by Japanese animation.

Now keep it mind, that it's ALL animation, it's ALL the same, just the two countries happen to have some sort of signature style that is recognizable.

But since the majority of us here are North American/European and other, (basically not Japanese) we refer to the Japanese style of animation, 'anime'. In this case, anime doesn't mean animation, it's slang for Jap animation. Now I'm repeating myself, but what the hey.

[StarlightAngel]

.....wasn't this originally about what your opinion was on Americans trying to copy the style found in many anime (note that I'm using it as a shortened "Japanime")?

Personally, I don't really mind if they try immitating the style. If it's a piece of crap, I won't watch it. If I like it, I'll probably watch it.

There's even a company that publishes American manga. Though it is a bit confusing as to why some of them write it reading right to left (like unflopped Japanese manga), some of it is actually pretty good.

I really don't see what the whole debate about the meaning of anime is about. Here it is commonly used to mean animation made in Japan/by Japanese. Can't we just leave it at that and continue on the topic?

[Vyk]

No... It refers to a style. Because an untrained eye will think Korean animation has said "style made in Japan" when it's not Japanese. Though I suppose saying asian style is okay. But yeah. I think it is crucial to debate the term a little. You have to understand what you're arguing for or against. If someone uses a generalized definition for the term, and then says america can't do that. They're being a hypocrite. If they want america to be distinct, they need to make a distinction in their view as well. I hope that made sense

[Lexy]

All of the Western-produced cartoons that I have seen that are obviously emulating anime are horrible. I can see why they'd want to emulate anime- as was said many times, lots of people like anime for some reason I don't understand, and they might like the crap these Western studios put out. I see the logic, but the end result is never quality stuff, because one, what is being emulated is most likely crap (I don't think your average anime fan realizes that the vast majority of anime is mind-bendingly bad), two, the people making these shows obviously aren't concerned with producing a quality product, but just care about making something passable. And there might be "good" anime-inspired Western cartoons out there, but I haven't seen one.

[Ryushikaze]

I would love for you to use wiki as an only source at any of the colleges or schools at my area... I have had freinds who get an instant zero for using that as thier only sourch. It does not count as a valid official source.

Strawman, yes? Wiki is not my only source, and I invoked it only in order to counter your claim that the common usage did not preclude the inclusive definition, when Wiki- which is a popularity game as often as not- includes it.


And even then Wiki supports me by saying that in English countries it is used in that specific way.

IS COMMONLY used. Not exclusively.


As for that post I do something called reading inbetween the lines. See the person was speaking english, was an english speaker(to my knowledge) and likely resides in an english country. Now I read inbetween see that they were likely talking about the english use of the word.

And I see them making the same sort of error as saying that the word katana can only apply to a particular type of sword. You seem to be projecting onto me the strawman that I don't allow the usage of the other definition at all, when my entire point is that both are valid in their own ways, and when that seems to be exactly what you're doing to me.
If two languages have two different usages for a given word, both usages are correct, despite language.

[ShunNakamura]

Not strawman, rather I was saying that the only source you have shown me thusfar(recall, if you do not show your other sources I can't be sure that you have them. Happened to me once in a paper, teacher wasn't sure of my mine source and I forgot to list the other sources that backed the main one up(the main one was a compilation source) to put it simply my grade was nasty low thanks to that), is not a valid official english source. Which was in response to you saying that you did indeed supply a source[you did but not one that is an official source which is what I was asking, I can easily provide 'sources' for just about anything].




that I don't allow the usage of the other definition at all


Of course, I don't dissaprove of using it as an identifying name, provided two things are done-
1- You do not treat it like it's a style. It isn't. And shame on you for thinking that.
2- You also use similar locale terminology to refer to Korean, French, and other animations and comics. No special status for the Japanese, ya hear?

Pretty much, yeah.

Well, not entirely. You just have to discuss more about the attempts at copying the elements commonly found in 'popular in america' japanese cartoons, which IS a valid topic, and technically what the thread was about to begin with.

THE JAPANESE REFER TO AMERICAN CARTOONS BY THE SAME WORD THEY REFER TO THEIR OWN. THEY ALSO MAKE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN 'ANIME' AND 'ANIMATION'.

And sure, Rukishi, Japanimation is fine, though it would probably be easiest to just use 'Blank' Animation, where 'Blank' is country of origin.

Since it is impossible to dissallow the usage of the word without the use of filter completely blocking I would agree that you don't dissallow it. However, you at least had been strongly pushing that you were right and the others were wrong.

And all I have been arguing this whole time is that the proper english definition and the usage in japan are different. And since we are English speakers the majority of us will use it as such(and since it is the ONLY english definition many will likely use it as the only definition, since it is the only official one for thier language). Pretty simple.

[The Unknown Guru]

This is exactly why i hate America. Trying to copy quality anime (there is lots of stuff not worth copying) and turn it into crap for 8-year-olds. That's like giving an MP3 player to a toddler, giving them something that they don't understand, cant use, and is totally useless in their hands.