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View Full Version : America Under Attack thread, part deux.



Asorie
09-13-2001, 01:16 AM
Go ahead and continue exactly what you were using the old thread for, here.

Britt
09-13-2001, 01:20 AM
*pokes his head in*

I'd also like to add that we'd appreciate everyone keep a level head and avoid openly antagonizing others. Thanks.

bossker
09-13-2001, 01:26 AM
"The whole middle east is a giant shit hole. They have so many terriorist groups and wars over there that it just doesn't matter any more. We need to go over there and kick some ass! Demand that the governments over there help us search for the terroists. We have had a bunch of terriorists attacks in the last years and they keep getting worse. We know that a majority of them come from the middle east but they are uncooperative. If we are not harsh and make it known we will not stand for this shit anymore these attacks will come more frequent and more harshly. If we go to war like we did in Desert Storm then I hope that Bush will give the order to kill the leader unlike his dad who let Sadam go. [[edited by Asorie]] They went WAY to far and any country could be next if they anger that area like the US some how did. Terroists need to be taken down with a big-ass bitch slap" ~That one guy...you know....*forgot his name* The antagonistic foo'


Anyways, in response to this, all I gotta say is "Hah!" Its pretty humorous how you automatically assume its the Middle East. What if this operation was AMERICAN based? Do we blow up Florida (where the cell phone call went)? How bout send a couple of nukes all over the USA to see if we can get them??? No? Don't like that idea? Well...why do we allow it in other places? And in regarding the Middle East, from the first hand accounts from my relatives, people in the Middle East are the single NICEST people in the world, they just don't like Americans. Which I think is understandable, I don't like America in general either. Anyways, theres quite a bit of "justification" for this attack. America has EASILY claimed 100,000+ lives in collateral damage in like Iraq alone. This attack was 1/10 of that magnitude. Although I don't agree with the violence, I can understand it.

Dr. Disco
09-13-2001, 01:34 AM
Now YOU'RE making a generalization. Nicest people in the world? Ever hear of bin Laden?

Red Wizard
09-13-2001, 01:49 AM
Origionally posted by Wolfboy
I just want to go on record right now by saying...
This is NOT the end of the world. This has NOT been prophecised by Nostradamus/the bible/Kreskin/anything else. And there is NOT going to be a war, for goodness sake! I mean, be realistic here for a minute. There's a difference between a military strike and a terrorist attack, mostly that wars are started because of military, not terrorism. If they do respond with voilence, it will not streach out into a war.

OK, here's the deal: We (at least I) have not been saying that Nostradamus/theBible/etc prophecied this attack, but instead that there are some striking parallels between the incident and the text. As far as the war goes, president Bush has already stated that '...we will make no distinction between those responsible and those who harbor them.' Also, recently president Bush has recieved NATO support in that if the attack was found to be sponsored by any nation, all NATO members would be 'entitled to respond under international law.' Read: If we find out a country funded this, NATO is going to war with them. If we find out that a country is knowingly hiding the terrorists responsible, we decalre war on that country.

Halan
09-13-2001, 01:54 AM
Ok, I really don't feel like reading through the last 10 pages of stuff that was written yesterday, because classes were cancelled yesterday and I did nothing except watch the horrors on TV. But I do have some stuff to say.

Ok, first of all, i would like to point out some stuff from the bible, i think Unners already said this but i'm too lazy to find it. In Revaltions 18, it describes the city of Babylon falling, how the great towers fell and depending on the translation, it may or may not mention dust being seen for miles. It mentions merchants weeping because no one will buy their goods. Also, the flight numbers of 3 of the planes that crashed add up to 11, 12 and 13. Yesterday was 9/11. Revelations 9:11 says that the first of the three woes has passed and to be prepared for the next two.

Ok, now! About these hijackers. I'm sure many of you have heard that they found out that some of the hijackers were from Boston, and others were from Florida. Well, what they do not tell you is where in Florida. Two of the suspected hijackers were from my home town, Vero Beach. They lived right down the road from me, one of my friends lived next door to one of them. They learned to fly at our local(tiny) airport under one of the flight programs they offer. Right now my home town is swamped with FBI, I heard they were going to start going door to door and questioning people. National news crews are in my small town saying "This is where two hijackers came from." I find it rather frightening that people such as these came from my very town.

Meh, I would say more, but i am sure that it would just be a repetition of what others have already said. I'm not going to get into an argument about the people who did this because thats all i've done in all of my classes all day. All I can say to you people is to send supplies, give blood at your local blood bank, I know I am, even though i'm only 108 lbs and I will probably pass out. Peace of God be with you all.

Britt
09-13-2001, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by Red Wizard
If we find out that a country is knowingly hiding the terrorists responsible, we decalre war on that country.

What would the purpose of the war be, though? That's what I've been wondering. All through history, wars have been to either drive an offensive force into surrender, or to drive forces out of a place/take control of the place. To what means would we fight? Would our goal be annihilation? Surrender would be meaningless, and they possess no territory we must defend.

Dr Unne
09-13-2001, 02:00 AM
Never mind.

Red Wizard
09-13-2001, 02:06 AM
Britt, the purpose of the war would be to show the world that we (the US) will no longer tolerate terrorism. Any country who knowingly house these terrorists are potentially a threat to us and our way of life. Unless the world bands together against this threat, it will always be there, lurking in the shadows, ready to strike with the best they have without any regard for themselves or others.

Britt
09-13-2001, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Red Wizard
Britt, the purpose of the war would be to show the world that we (the US) will no longer tolerate terrorism.

So, annihilation, basically. That's pretty depressing... To think that innocent people will die because of their government. A US weapons guy on CNN already said that civilian lives, though precious, will be compromised because their governments dragged them into their situation. That's downright scary, and practically terrorism in its own right.

bossker
09-13-2001, 02:17 AM
Now that I think about it, Osama Bin Ladin could have done SOOOOOO much more damage to the United States. He needs better thinkers working for him. Imagine if he had used Englishmen to take control of the operation. He has plenty of money, he could have hired people from England easily. Now imagine if the United States had to hold England responsible for what happened to us yesterday? Eh? I don't think Bush would back down after saying all that crap about retribution. He'd make Britain make a formal apology and probably break the Euro-American alliance. Imagine if the fool went farther and tried to fire cruise missles in remote areas of England? England wouldn't tolerate that, they'd probably fight back....and then there would be a war between the Gulf's 2 biggest enemies. What could be greater for them?? As well thought out as his scheme was, he could have done better, IF it was him...



And who's to say Bin Ladin's "evil." ? What if he believes that he's doing God himself a favor to get rid of Americans? Ever heard of the Crusades? Do you consider the Christian Paladins to be murders? Bin Ladins no different than they were except he's on the Islamic side.

Britt
09-13-2001, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by bossker
Do you consider the Christian Paladins to be murderers?

Yes, I do. But that's a whole different discussion.

Linus
09-13-2001, 02:21 AM
If that's the only goal, then when if ever would we stop warring? Usually wars end when the winning side is satisfied with their newly acquired/defended land.

Dr Unne
09-13-2001, 02:21 AM
Edit: I'm sorry bossker. I had no right to post that.

angel
09-13-2001, 02:23 AM
all i can say ..

shit .....
this sux


good luck
~tenshi

bossker
09-13-2001, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by Dr Unne
You're right, that I'm not going to listen to your side. There is no justification for murdering innocents. Something as petty as politics certainly is no reason. America isn't the only country that feels this attack was completely unjustified. A great many other countries are supporting us. The people who did this were sick evil people, and most of the world agrees. I would venture to say that anyone with a shred of decency and appreciation for human life would agree that this was a totally evil act. If you think anyone is justified in killing 10,000+ innocent people, in my eyes you're an evil person too, and I don't really feel like discussing anything further with you.

If you read the next sentence I stated that I didn't agree with the violence but I could understand the motives. And my other post was about how much worse it could have been. I mean, it WAS bad. But with Osama's resources, he could have made it SOO much worse.

Red Wizard
09-13-2001, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by Britt
So, annihilation, basically. That's pretty depressing... To think that innocent people will die because of their government. A US weapons guy on CNN already said that civilian lives, though precious, will be compromised because their governments dragged them into their situation. That's downright scary, and practically terrorism in its own right.

That's not what I said at all. You act as though we are back in WW2 and the only options are massive ground attacks and saturation bombing. We are now in the electronic age, and we can take out single buildings with small bombs. Nobody said that we would utilize nuclear armaments, biological/chemical agents, or massive strikes at all. Instead, we will sugically remove military and industrial targets until the country no longer has the will or ability to fight. Please try to have a grasp on modern warfare before you predict th outcome. Yes, there will be civillian losses, and yes that is bad. But this is a WAR we are talking about! I don't care how many ideals and the like you throw at me, but in some cases, the only way to end something as serious as this is to resort to violence. It's not pretty, but it has to be done.

Also, please don't forget that all of this is moot if the terrorist faction is found to be woking indepenantly and without the knowledge of the country they are in.

Linus
09-13-2001, 02:33 AM
We're not talking about war, silly. We're talking about PREVENTING war, and how POINTLESS a war would be.

krissy
09-13-2001, 02:34 AM
Ideals? It's common sense.


EDIT: Bossker, motives are one thing, killing is another. Let's say a single alien destroys our world because he felt like it. You survive. Do you go after that alien, or the whole alien race?

Britt
09-13-2001, 02:36 AM
*reminds you of what that US official said*

I'm only saying what I am because of how they're acting. And because I'm a pretty argumentive person. But I don't think I'm going to argue anymore, either. I am a pacifist, so we'll never agree. Like Brian said, someone is going to say something they regret, and I don't want it to be me.

<i>We're not talking about war, silly. We're talking about PREVENTING war, and how POINTLESS a war would be.

Ideals? It's common sense.</i>

Precisely.

Cyan Highwind
09-13-2001, 02:38 AM
As I watched the collapse of the Twin Trade centers from my desk at school it seemed sureal like a horrible dream or movie but it dawned apon me that it was not a movie as I heard the screams that wil forever ring in my mind...
And this county no, this world is forever changed

Red Wizard
09-13-2001, 02:41 AM
That's not my point at all. I'm trying to say that in this case if another contry was involved, war is inevitible. I'm also saying that preventing civillian casualties in a war is impossible. Don't try and tell me that 'War is pointless' and 'we are trying to prevent a war'. If you think about it, you would do the same. If someone wrecks a car into your house on purpose, then you later find out another family paid that person to do so, what would you do? This is the same principal, just on a larger scale. What president Bush said is that the US can no longer tolerate terrorist attacks at home or abroad, and I agree with him. If you think that this is silly/wrong because civillians might get hurt, too bad for you. If we do not stamp out this flame of hatred, many more lives than those potentially lost in a war will be lost. When we speak of a 'war against terrorism' it is the same thing as a 'war on crime' or a 'war against drugs'. It's symbolic. The only case in which an actual war would take place is if another country was found to have either supported those responsible, or knowingly allowed them to reside in their country. (It's the same idea as being an accessory to a crime/harboring a known criminal, but again, on a larger scale)

bossker
09-13-2001, 02:46 AM
EDIT: Nevermind.

Rirse
09-13-2001, 02:47 AM
Well I wished Brian would stick around in the topic, as he been nice enough to disprove any fears that the world will end and I give him a big thanks for doing that(it just sickens me to hear that stuff). And I do think justice is the only answer, but not war. I'm remined by a quote from Yoda.


Wars not make one great!


Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice! - Yoda

Blackmage
09-13-2001, 02:52 AM
Well, I've been thinking of quite a bit about all of this. Personally, it wouldn't surprise me if there was another attack like this, and if they do I have a feeling that the west coast, mainly CA, would be hit, simply because all the planes had CA as their target (3: Los Angeles, 1: San Fransisco); they could've chosen other flights that would go to Alaska or Washington the state, so that maybe a bit suspisous. But, then again, I'm usually a bad predictor, though. This is a terrible thing that has sorta changed the way I think of life.

And Nostradamus (sp.?)...he said that something like this would happen, if I'm thinking of the right guy. I think it was him who had predicted that there will be quite a few years of chaos, followed by 1000 years of peace, and then the world ends not too long after that. I'm only repeating something I've heard quite a long time ago, and I'm not sure if that was Nostradamus or not.

Hopefully, Bush will take care of all this in a way that gives justice and won't lead to war.

Linus
09-13-2001, 02:52 AM
War is <i><b>POINTLESS.</b></i>

AND STOP USING THOSE DAMN METAPHORS! Nobody crashed a stupid car, nobody beat up your sibling, nobody did jack like that. You need to look at the current situation and NOT make metaphors that are like our situation. Anyways, let's just PRETEND Afghanistani government had something to do with this. We wipe them out. Then what? We have a big stinkin' hole, lots of very pissed off civilians, a country with no leaders, etc. How would we, the American people, feel good about killing off a government when we're CAUSING pain and suffering. We won't be dancing in the streets, that's for sure. In other words, once the perpetrators are gone, do we celebrate? In the end, it won't matter one bit and we'll have done more wrong than right.

Garland
09-13-2001, 02:52 AM
Who's to say Bin Ladin is evil? Well I for one. He and anyone like him are evil incarnate. They devote their lives to killing innocent people. They're no longer humans, so they deserve none of the rights that go along with it. I won't even begin to look at their perspective. They don't deserve so much. They don't represent any known religion. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, all are peaceful at heart. If you kill innocents as any of them, your faith says you'll go to hell. None of them condone such activities. That's why pointing fingers is so risky. We shouldn't attack the country that houses terrorists, just the terrorists alone. That may seem confusing. I mean, the goal of the conflict that results of this will be geared to eliminating only the group involved. We won't invade with massive armadas of tanks and planes. In any country that happens to house these villains, the other 99% of the people are ordinary citizens just trying to get by. Bush wants retribution, so do many others, but he's no monster. Whatever happens, innocents will be protected.

RSL
09-13-2001, 02:59 AM
Anyone who kills 10000 plus people is evil. I don't care if it's the pope, it's the most evil act I can think of.

Wiping out an entire country in retaliation is not the answer, though. We'd be killing innocent people as well, and that would make us no better than those that attacked our country yesterday.

Sorry if someone already made those points, I haven't the time to read all of your posts (but I will sometime.)

Red Wizard
09-13-2001, 03:00 AM
I personally think metaphors are one of the best tools to use to apply global politics to everyday life. If you don't agree, I'm sorry, but I use them as a tool. OK, let us assume we find a country who aided the terrorists resoponsible. Those actions would be seen as an attack on the United States, and war would ensue, with all of NATO aiding the US. After the war, the country responsible would probably have its current government stripped, a new, democratic government would be set up, and a peacekeeping force of NATO and UN military forces would be installed. After a few years, the country should be able to choose their on government and move on.
Let us now assume that we find a country who knowingly harbored those responsible. The first thing we would do , would be to ask for an official apology, possibly reparations, and the promise that either A: The terrorists are brought to justice by the local government or that B: The US is allowed to bring them to justice. If my earlier threads implied that we would go to war regardless, that is because I doubt that if we come across situation B, the country in question would give an apology/reparations.

CloudDragon
09-13-2001, 03:03 AM
I agree with Red Wizard here. Let's say we dn't go to war on a country that WAS hiding the Terrorists. The terrorists think:HAHAHA The US has let us Live and has not gone to war on our Country. Let's go pu them in Terror again. So they strike again. If we went to war yes we would lose lives but they same thing would happen if we let Terrorism go on and destroy more of the US and its civilians. As Red Wizard Said, if that is the case the war is inevitable. And I know people will disagree with me on this.

To Linus:Well what if we don't wipe them out and they were invovled? We might have to before they do it to us. We must take action to preserve our counrty.

Linus
09-13-2001, 03:04 AM
And you think the civilians will just LET us impose democracy on them? Isn't that kinda why the attacks took place? Western oppression, and telling their people what to do?

Cyan Highwind
09-13-2001, 03:10 AM
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:
PLEASE STOP THIS SENSELESS FIGHTING OVER THESE STUPID ISSUES!! Now is a time to help. Help the victims and the victims familys and please please please have respect at this time of crisis

Linus
09-13-2001, 03:12 AM
Psst, we can't exactly help people save lives via messageboard...

Red Wizard
09-13-2001, 03:12 AM
What do you think the 'peacekeeping' force is for? You and I both know that they won't enjoy it, but realistically we can't just wipe out their government and let them go on without monitoring. We would set up our government style for a few years, and if it proves successful in aiding the general good of the country, then chances are that when we leave they might stay democratic. If they don't, then they will be bitter, but they will know that they don't stand a chance in an all out war, and that we will not tolerate cowardly acts of terrorism. That is the point of this whole thing.

[EDIT]

Originally posted by Cyan Highwind
PLEASE STOP THIS SENSELESS FIGHTING OVER THESE STUPID ISSUES!! Now is a time to help. Help the victims and the victims familys and please please please have respect at this time of crisis

I myself have already donated blood, and agree that it is very important that we aid those who were injured in this catastrophe. However, I also find it important to know what the world's reaction is, and how we all will react to it. This will change all of our lives in one way or another, and I think it to be a good thing that we are sharing our ideas about this.

Cyan Highwind
09-13-2001, 03:32 AM
I am truly sorry...
But at this time my heart is filled with anger fear hate resentment and sorrow but most of all horror. horror of the images on the t.v. of people jumping out of the towers from the top of the towers, screams of people, and most of the images and screams of those not seen those trapped beneath the rubble.

Red Wizard
09-13-2001, 03:37 AM
Cyan, I thank you for bringing up the fact that there is more than just the political aspect of this. We all need to be reminded of that sometimes, you should not feel as though you need to apologise because you said what you feel. That is what this is about, sharing our ideas/what we feel. I will admit that I will have nightmares about the death and suffering caused by this.

[EDIT]: My addition has been re-posted

Cyan Highwind
09-13-2001, 03:45 AM
I would like to thank all of our allies thoughout the world Nato saying that any crime agianst america is a crime agianst Nato tony blair expressing his condolences to our loses and all of our allies saying that they help us in the effert to find the people who comitted this horrible act of war. But I agree with whoever said that revenge will; not bring back those who have died.:cry:

Red Wizard
09-13-2001, 03:48 AM
This was posted on the Palladium Mailing List:
(begin snip)
Taken from STP 21-1-SMCT page 546

Standards:
Follow the "Soldier's Rules" conducting combat operations in accordance
with the law of war.
1. Fight only enemy combatants.
2. Safeguard enemies who surrender.
3. Do not kill or torture enemy prisoners.
4. Care for the wounded, whether friend or foe.
5. Do not attack medical personnel, facilitites, or equipment.
6. Destroy no more than the mssion requires.
7. Treat all civilians humanely.
8. Respect pricate property and posessions. Do not steal.
9. Identify the rights and duties of prisoners of war.
10. Report all violations of the law of war.

These are the laws most soldiers follow, in one form or another. These bastards violated laws 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7. That's 60% of the conventions recognized by the civilized world. Now, I admit that the Pentagon is a valid target, but 50,000+ civillians? I don't think any nation in the world has ever specifically targeted civilians for extermination, and has survived. No group that has ever tried this will survived. We, the civilized world, will make sure of that.
(end snip)

Calliope
09-13-2001, 03:58 AM
i'd like to say that i think everyone has been great, that is...look at all the volunteers giving blood. all the firefighters and the doctors and nurses helping victims. all the journalists who have gone without sleep to bring news coverage to the people. people who have laid flowers at the embassy. or are holding memorial services. or just praying and thinking of the victims. it's nice to know that we can semi-get along in a crisis. thank goodness.

Cyan Highwind
09-13-2001, 03:58 AM
(Note: 32,000 people are employed at the pentegon every day)
I agree with red wizard these evil criminal (:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: Bastards!!!!!!) should pay for this crime and I assure you that this nation will act directly and if Bin laden is behind this he is a dead man!:mad2: But this needs to be a signal that the united states will not allow terrorist attacks of any magtitude

Rirse
09-13-2001, 04:00 AM
"It is open to a war resister to judge between two combatants and wish success to the one who has justice on his side." - Gandhi

I'm just remined of this quote from the great Gandhi that related to the tragery and the signture maded by Angela.

Linus
09-13-2001, 04:12 AM
What if the military sets up medical camps at their nerve centers and there are civlians all about, but also enemy soldiers? We just let them pick us apart?

Cyan Highwind
09-13-2001, 04:12 AM
we must send a message that america will prevail and survive. The most beautiful thing was the members of congress singin God Bless America on the steps of the capitol and the members of other countries observing a moment of silence at 8:45 Am this day August 12 2001. showing the truth that this diastater has brought this country, no, this world closer together than his ever been.

Linus
09-13-2001, 04:18 AM
Guess what. If Congress was all in the same building, and a kamikaze flight hit it, we'd all be royally f*dged up the bum. Seriously. Tom Clancy wrote a book about it.

Cyan Highwind
09-13-2001, 04:25 AM
It was that it was beatiful that the country could come together during a time of crisis. People like you make me furious having no respect for the victims and there famliys. Oh, and the United stated has the worlds largest army, air force, and navy not mentioning the us soliders in the embasses around the world.

<b>Edited by Unne: please don't insult anyone. Things are bad enough already.</b>

Britt
09-13-2001, 04:29 AM
I am <i>SO</i> not warning anyone, again. Do <b>not</b> get insulting. It is the absolute <i>last</i> thing anyone needs. Okay?

Cyan Highwind
09-13-2001, 04:30 AM
Quote " What Suffering, what dramitic events! But, also what incredable achievements."- Pope John Paul II
I'd like to apolgise for what I said before I know this isn't an excuss but I have a very short temper...

Linus
09-13-2001, 04:33 AM
Who says I'm not sympathetic? You ever stop to think that <b>I</b> might know people who were majorly affected by this incident? Well I do, and have been trying to confort them for the last 24 hours. Just because I don't talk about giving blood and such doesn't mean I have no sympathy. Besides, I'm too young to legally give blood or do anything that would make a difference.

Cyan Highwind
09-13-2001, 04:38 AM
I'm Sorry...
I am a friend of some people who are affected by this tradgey and also am affected by it and have been very high strung the past day and a half so once agian I'm terribly sorry

Trigash
09-13-2001, 04:47 AM
Well when President Bush was in Sarasota, Florida ( Where i live ) he was going to Booker Elementry. I got to Booker High School. Wich really isn't that far from Booker. Maybe 2 blocks i think. I think it a great tradegy what happened. I know my friend's ( Dalpha 2000 ) brother was in the WTC when the planes hit. I think he actually comes to these forums. Many people across the world are shaken terribly by this act of terrorist. In Venice, Florida. Wich is about 10 minutes from Sarasota, Florida is where the terrorist learned to fly actually. I haven't actually heard the whole story, but i do feel very bad for all the people who have lost loved ones in that terrible accident.

Morticia
09-13-2001, 05:22 AM
I've read the two pages of this thread to see admins/older members acting like everyone is supposed to want to be fair. THE TWIN TOWERS WERE DESTROYED. OVER TWO THOUSAND PEOPLE ARE KNOWN TO BE DEAD.

Wanna tell me where the "fairness" is in that?

I've got a friend still trapped in the rubble of the WTC.

She's probably dead.

Where the f--- was your "fairness?" and how the f--- are your "ideals" going to work against madmen? You can't reason with evil; you can reason with radicalism. Wake up.

We need to hunt down those responsible like the carrion eating dogs they are; we need to drag them behind the chariots; we need to strip them naked in the streets; destroy their bodies, and THEN kill them.

All on international live television.

Is it fair? Just?

Go take a look at the tear streaked eyes and faces of those who have family dead in these attacks. Go take a look at the joyful faces of those g-------- Palestinians as they DANCED! Then tell me what "fair" is!

Go and dig my friend Katie out of the rubble and ask HER what SHE thinks should be done!

Phoenix

Dr. Disco
09-13-2001, 05:36 AM
This is so...phenomenal. It's like a movie, and I want out. The worst part is...I can't do anything. Nothing at all. Who KNOWS what will happen? And here I am, useless, trying to block it from my mind with other events. It's all so unreal...

ew2x4
09-13-2001, 05:42 AM
I don't know what the goals of the terrorists were. Anything I say about it would be pure speculation. But, the only thing that seems right would be that they wanted to ruin America. They wanted to ruin America's economy, America's image, America's military, America's government and on and on and on.
Tonight, I have realized that they have brought America closer then it ever has been. Never have I seen so much botherly love in a time of dispair. Never have I seen so many people proud to be an American. Never have I seen people wave thier flag and the nation reacts.

Tonight on TV, there was a Candle light vigil in a Minor league baseball stadium in Wichita, Kansas. I live near it. What I saw gave me goosebumps. People were enthusiastically aplauding men in uniform. They have never given more support of our government. Never have more people been there for one another.

To fellow Americans, our country will get through this. Our world will get through this. I haven't had as much faith in that as I do now.

Only time can tell how this will play out.

-N-
09-13-2001, 06:07 AM
ew2x4: Exactly. Pull together guys not apart.


Society is dividing. The United States of America is starting to crumble. Which is exactly what the perpetrator of this elaborate scheme planned to happen.

--Neel

We're crumbling guys. Please, I plead to you to stick together. We don't need hate. See what hate has produced? More hate.

The same ideas Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. expressed, of <i>ahimsa</i> and passive resistance, nonviolence... it won a country's freedom, it ended a race's persecution... what can it not do?

Please, whatever religion, whatever system of beliefs you have. You need not be orthodox or agnostic, but still, please, I beg of you to have faith in yourself as a person and yourselves as people.

You're all I have now. My friends are not with me anymore. Don't crumble like they want you to.

FFmusic dj
09-13-2001, 06:12 AM
I dont know about all of you, but America is being a [edited]. ... we are truly the nicest people on earth! but now, if we wanna save lives? we need to be the bad guys and kick some ass. but if I am saying that, will I go to the army? .. I probably wont. if we are gonna take some action, we need to get out buts up and do something about it, I hope you all understood that. we need to stand up as a nation and say to all those laughing in out face that we are a country, and we can make it!

this is something extra
YOU MUST READ THIS!

this is a normal step in humans

first the "I cant believe it" state of what is happening

then the "Shocked" state of it actually is happening

now we are in the "Anger" state. of why/who the :bou::bou::bou::bou::bou: did this?

we want answers and are comeing to any conclusion necessary to get revenge .... we need to be calm, calm down everyone, everything will be ok. and I am saying that cause everything will ....

Asorie
09-13-2001, 06:17 AM
Phoenix. We, or at least I, am not debating the rightness of punishing those who are responsible-at least those that aren't already dead. What we are against is war against a country. I've already stated many of my reasons for this position in the first thread. I'm sorry...there's nothing I can say to comfort you, and to say I'm sorry about your friend and hope she's alright is trite and plastic sounding...even if I do mean it. So...yeah. :( *hugs you*

Britt
09-13-2001, 06:24 AM
I agree. Phoenix, you have no idea how much I hurt for you, and your friend. I do not oppose at all the torture and terrible, drawn-out deaths of those that have caused this. But I do not sanction war against another country. I deplore the people that have caused this, as well. *hugs* I hope everything is okay, Phoenix- I really do. You know that I, and everyone else, cares. I'm very, very sorry.

-N-
09-13-2001, 06:25 AM
I think many people's sentiments can be summed up by the following:

War against a country - bad.
War against terrorism - good.

Of course, the methods in which this second 'war' should be carried out MUST be diplomatic. What would all the dead people say: "Don't f*** this up." That's what they would say. That's what my cousin would say, despite her... well.

So, America, don't f*** this up. Please, I continue to stress unity.

Chris Lionheart
09-13-2001, 06:36 AM
First I just have to say that those terrorists will pay for all the pain and suffering they have brought upon our great nation. Terrorists have now officially crossed the line when they pulled a stunt like they did yesterday. We all know that this has shocked the world and not just the United States. I still cant get it out of my mind how one day things could be all nice and dandy and the next the whole nation is under almost every kind of alert known. I read that we are crumbling? WHAT? WE ARENT CRUMBLING! WE will only become stronger from this experience. Those bastards who did this are only trying to make us crumble, but like President Bush said, We will pass this test the world has given us. Like everyone is saying though PLEASE dont do anything stupid such as hate crimes, you'll only be sinking down to their level. Finally I just want to say this on a personal level..... "WHO EVER DID THIS YOU HAD BETTER COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS REAL FAST CUZ WE'RE GONNA FIND YOU AND KICK YOUR ASS!"


P.S. MY condolences and sympathies go out to everyone affected by Tuesdays tragic event.

ew2x4
09-13-2001, 06:54 AM
Has anyone heard the rumors of the Taliban holding bin Ladin under house arrest? I heard them from two different places but it's unconfirmed.

American Badass
09-13-2001, 07:09 AM
Can't say that I've heard that rumor being confirmed or not. One thing is for sure...if he is in one place and can't get out...well, his goose is a cooked and cooked well-done.

Let's face it from the military viewpoint of what happened. They went after the Pentagon. Good thought, didn't completley work. What happened as a result? You humiliated the military "head" of the US. Do you think they'll stand for that. Hell no. If the military can get Bin Ladin alive, they will most certainly do it as long as it doesn't cost lives. Why? Because if he is behind everything, then the population of the US will want that trial aired, and they will be expecting that death penalty ruling. And when it comes (and believe me, if it goes to trial, he will get the death penalty if he lives that long) to that ruling being anounced, you'll see a lot of Americans dancing in the streets.

Of course, I doubt they'll be able to get him alive, if he is the one behind everything. If they can't get him alive, they'll have no problems bombing him all the way to East Bumblef***.

SubmoDuck
09-13-2001, 07:43 AM
The man is already on the FBI's Top Ten Most Wanted.

-Submo Duck

Morticia
09-13-2001, 07:55 AM
I no longer know what to think.

War...or no war?

These people think it is <i>holy</i> to kill Americans. To them; our deaths are a step toward bringing perfection to the world. Our blood in the streets is a sanctifying sight for them; the broken rubble of American buildings and bodies is good to them.

How but war do we end this threat, not only to America, but to any nation that these goddamned people decide it is holy to hate?

And how can we kill the society which indoctrinates this hate without killing civilians?

Do we let these madmen sit and preach their poision until all of America is gone? Who do they go after next? The UK? France? Spain? Russia?

Part of me says they have a right to live as they want and believe as they want.

Part of me says how long can we ignore and pacify these goddamned madmen? Do we wait until all non-Muslims are dead?

Some of my friends I feel I will not see until we stand before our Maker. And God help me if I can't restrain myself from spitting on those goddamned Palestinians when we all bow before the Throne.

Phoenix

David
09-13-2001, 08:46 AM
I think Lott has said it best: "We're at war whether or not we declare it."

This offense has triggered the anger of a nation. The senate has released any limits on the budget of the military for now by a vote of 100-0. Bush's approval rating right now is skyrocketing as Americans, Democrat, Republican or whathaveyou, stand behind him in hopes that, like his old man, he will not stand by and make idle threats. 90+% of the US wants firm and swift revenge. Religious leaders in the community have gone on record as saying that revenge right now would be justice.

I watched a trained fire fighter cry as he told reporters that he watched his entire squad die in front of his eyes during the collapse. I saw a professional, experienced doctor struggle to maintain his sanity on live telivision as he told what he saw through tears. A couple took their lives together as they both jumped hand in hand from the upper levels because they didn't want to die painful deaths. One person said that the hospitals looked like it would on any other busy day...except that it was eerie...because no one was sick...because most of the people in it were dead. I see husbands crying over lost wives; wives over lost husbands; children over lost parents; parents over lost children. Friends, family, community alike all sharing one broken heart as each family in the country feels the pain of lost loved ones.

There will be bodies that won't be recovered. There will be empty coffins that are buried in remembrance of a person they can't find. Children will watch their parents be buried because of an unprovoked, insane attack and they'll grow up with a hatred deep in their hearts. People who survived the collapse will die in rubble as it has been said that it could take weeks before it's all cleared. Innocent people with families and friends and things to live for have died painful deaths at the hands of unseen killers. People took their own lives to lessen the pain of the attack. People are going to kill themselves because it shattered their world or took the only person they were living for. People are going to be crying for decades after yesterday. Reports of people of arabic decent getting beaten in the streets are coming in as angry, bloodthirsty americans seek their own kind of twisted justice.

Bush will retaliate with full force. The US public will not allow him to not do so. And if he doesn't, Congress will do so despite him. And once whoever has done this dies the death he so rightly deserves, I hope the devil has a special place for him when he gets to hell.

Midnight Sage
09-13-2001, 08:49 AM
My emotions are skipping from deep sadness, to pure hatred and anger. Sure, war isn't a good thing. But if that is what has to be done to stop those damn fools from killing us all, then so be it. To see all those idiots dancing in the streets and grinning like a bunch of mad men and women, and to see their children, laughing at our pain and suffering...this is how they are being raised, to hate Americans. And if we don't take action now, then sooner or later we will all be nuked. Look at how hi-tech weapons are today. It scares me, thinking somewhat of Armageddon.

And, lets face it. We can't calmly talk to these people. They are violent. With suicide, they believe they are dying for a good cause as long as they take as many Americans out with them as possible. We cannot let them get away with just a slap on the wrist. I don't know what emotions you felt surge through you when you saw those poor people jumping from the top of the Twin Towers, but I broke down crying. Is this the beginning of a new era? I don't like war, but if it will take care of matters and finally stop those fools from murdering all of us, then I hope America nukes those suckers good. I suspect it is that bin Laden guy and the sooner we get rid of him and his followers, the better.
God is with us. He will not let man destroy himself.

edczxcvbnm
09-13-2001, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by bossker
"The whole middle east is a giant shit hole. They have so many terriorist groups and wars over there that it just doesn't matter any more. We need to go over there and kick some ass! Demand that the governments over there help us search for the terroists. We have had a bunch of terriorists attacks in the last years and they keep getting worse. We know that a majority of them come from the middle east but they are uncooperative. If we are not harsh and make it known we will not stand for this shit anymore these attacks will come more frequent and more harshly. If we go to war like we did in Desert Storm then I hope that Bush will give the order to kill the leader unlike his dad who let Sadam go. [[edited by Asorie]] They went WAY to far and any country could be next if they anger that area like the US some how did. Terroists need to be taken down with a big-ass bitch slap" ~That one guy...you know....*forgot his name* The antagonistic foo'


Anyways, in response to this, all I gotta say is "Hah!" Its pretty humorous how you automatically assume its the Middle East. What if this operation was AMERICAN based? Do we blow up Florida (where the cell phone call went)? How bout send a couple of nukes all over the USA to see if we can get them??? No? Don't like that idea? Well...why do we allow it in other places? And in regarding the Middle East, from the first hand accounts from my relatives, people in the Middle East are the single NICEST people in the world, they just don't like Americans. Which I think is understandable, I don't like America in general either. Anyways, theres quite a bit of "justification" for this attack. America has EASILY claimed 100,000+ lives in collateral damage in like Iraq alone. This attack was 1/10 of that magnitude. Although I don't agree with the violence, I can understand it.

That was me yo. While I probably do make a few assumptions that the whole middle east. I always forget that the Upper part of Africa is part of the middle east.

As for your whole Nuke the USA thing. Dropping a nuke on yourself is just ignorant. Alot of people from the middle east are nice but that doesn't change my perception that it is generally a shit hole. It seems like they have been at war forever. They seem to have the most terrorists groups in the world also. Almost every country has had a civil war so thats not a big deal but they have also been at war with each other for well over 10 years now. I imagine 50 years since that is when the US gave the Jews their own country over there since no one wanted them in Europe after WW2 and they had no place to go. Ever since then there have been nothing but problems over there.

As for killing 100,000 people. Your probably right but with all the problems with desert storm and Bio weapons over there I can understand it. I would not agree with it if we dileberatly just attack cities and no military targets at all but we did it the other way around. Sadly innocent people probably did die. Thats war. But when you only go after civilians, that isn't war. That is mindless slaughter.

I am very saddened that you think mindless slaughter with being at war is justifyable. They may think it is okay over there because that is how they were raised and how they were taught. That is fine and all because that is their culture(as twisted as I may think it is).

As for a comment of yours about the crusades...those were wrong. Go and try to take back the holy land? That all swell and everything but do it in a peaceful manner. You are the church and Pope who serve God who said "Thou Shalt not kill" so the crusades were really wrong and backwards.

Off to make some maccaroni!

Kupopoi
09-13-2001, 09:14 AM
I don't think war will bring back those who died, it will only cuase more innocent lives Midknight Sage. Sure it was horrible, but those people who died that day would never and never want that to happen to more innocent people... This proves how sick humans really are.

Rinoabella
09-13-2001, 10:56 AM
<font color=#FFCCFF>I've been watching it all on TV for the past few days now. It's so tragic. God, it's the ultimate tragedy! Without reading the other posts, this is what I have to say:

I don't know which is worse, the realisation that someone would actually DO such a thing, or the realisation that so many innocent people have died unexpectedly. It can happen to anyone. We are all different people than we were before this all happened. I didn't actually realise how global or significant this actually was until I saw it on the news, and until I started talking to people in IRC :( I'm...just so sorry. I don't know how to express how sorry I am, all I can do is tell you how much I care about everyone's feelings here.

Don't generalise. Judging all the people from the Middle East by your perception that is based on that of the hijackers (going with the belief that they were from the Middle East)...isn't right. How would you feel if 2 psychos from your country bombed another, which caused the rest of the world to sterotype and hate your culture? Thought so. It's not fair is it?

Part of me thinks that the rest of the world sees America as the "invincible" country, a supreme country that can stand up to anything, which added to the terrorists determination to bring it down :\ That makes me so mad. It's frustrating that the people responsible killed so many others, and treated the whole concept of life like crap by killing themselves! If there's a war, God help us.

OK, I think I'll stop now.

sparkfist
09-13-2001, 11:51 AM
My father was in New York the day it happened, luckily he was late for work there. Thank God.

Guru Clef
09-13-2001, 03:18 PM
Hi, I'm from outside of the US, but as you all would no doubt know, this has become somewhat of a world issue. I would like to express my deep sorrow for the unthinkable acts of cruelty committed against the people of America, especially those who have suffered losses of family, friends and other close relations as a result. I know this does sound "plastic" and "trite", as someone put it earlier, but the truth is many people around the world are sharing your misfortunes with you and also feel for your loss.

I would just like to say that it is important not to identify friends as enemies. I'd hazard a guess that people of certain races currently residing in the US may be feeling very vulnerable and threatened in light of the actions supposedly executed by their kin. The situation highlights a real threat that innocent members of certain ethnic groups will be singled out and blamed upon for the disastrous consequences of the terrorist act.

EDIT: I believe Rinoabella has previously raised this point. Therefore, I'll just reiterate.

Bongo Monkey
09-13-2001, 03:32 PM
Before anyone flames me, I must point out that I am not in favour of going to war, I just feel it's inevitable if a country harbours those responsible. If this happens, the goal of that war is not annihilation. It's to bring the terrorists to justice. As soon as the country in question hands over the responsible parties, the troops will be called off.

Support Justice, not Slaughter. That's an excellent slogan, and I'm about to go and put that sig in for myself, but: Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that Bin Laden is found to be responsible, and Afghanistan continues to shelter him. America decides "We can't go to war, civilians could be killed". So Bin Laden gets away with it. Where's the justice?

Posted by bossker
Now imagine if the United States had to hold England responsible for what happened to us yesterday?If anyone from Britain was involved, the british government would hand them over without question. So why would the US feel the need to fight us?

Kevin_05
09-13-2001, 04:07 PM
I don't understand how some people think that war isn't the answer. I feel that military force is the only way to retaliate. These were acts of war commited against the US and by being American it pisses me off that idiots would try somthing like this. I have to much pride in our country to just let them get off without getting even. And i feel that eveyother American should feel the same way. We all should be patriots. I liked the quote I heard on TV that said "May god have mercy on their souls........because we won't"

God Bless America

Garnet of Alexandria
09-13-2001, 05:57 PM
:( They're letting planes fly around Outer London again now (which is where my town is) so I'm really really scred and every time I hear a plane fly over I get really nervous..........

I'm so scared.. I don't want anything more to happen, but as far as I can see.. things are only going to get worse....... :(

God I'm so scared...... :cry:

Kupopoi
09-13-2001, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Kevin_05
I don't understand how some people think that war isn't the answer. I feel that military force is the only way to retaliate. These were acts of war commited against the US and by being American it pisses me off that idiots would try somthing like this. I have to much pride in our country to just let them get off without getting even. And i feel that eveyother American should feel the same way. We all should be patriots. I liked the quote I heard on TV that said "May god have mercy on their souls........because we won't"

God Bless America

So your saying becuase of that "pride" more people have to die?

Shadowdust
09-13-2001, 06:02 PM
I haven't been keeping up on this thread so forgive me if this is already mentioned.

I was listening to a speech that President Bush was making this morning and he basically implied that there will be a war and it won't just be the terrorist paying for it. He said that any country harboring or funding these terrorists will be punished. He's already getting other nations behind the US.

Sadly, this very well may become a war. Innocent people will die again.

Frihet
09-13-2001, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Morticia
And God help me if I can't restrain myself from spitting on those goddamned Palestinians when we all bow before the Throne.

That is a huge generalization, because a whole lot of Palestinians are not like that.. That's like hating all christians because of the gruesome acts done in the name of christianity. The US is on Iraq's side in that conflict, and Palestinians are killed by American weapons all the time. I honestly can't see how you, that seemed so intelligent, would make such a generalization.

Endless
09-13-2001, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Frihet


That is a huge generalization, because a whole lot of Palestinians are not like that.. That's like hating all christians because of the gruesome acts done in the name of christianity. The US is on Iraq's side in that conflict, and Palestinians are killed by American weapons all the time. I honestly can't see how you, that seemed so intelligent, would make such a generalization.

The image of Palestinians dancing in the street was... shocking to say the least. I mean, I am not as hurt as her by these events, but I understand that she feels anger/ hate against the ones dancing.
She made a distinction before between Palestinians who care (Palestinians), and Palestinians who danced (the goddamned ones). I see that you might have misread what she meant to say, because of the way her distinction is formulated.

Edit: <a href="http://acmlm.overclocked.org/board/thread.php?id=7184">There</a>.

Shadowdust
09-13-2001, 06:22 PM
The thing that is bothering me most isn't so much the Palestinians reaction anymore, nor any of the other terrorist crap. It's the way the American people have reacted to it. It is so horrible. Such racism has taken place.

I live in the Bay Area and on the radio they were discussing this poor Pakistani man who was visiting the US. He was lost and kept asking directions. Several people gave wrong directions to him. Then finally a bunch of young men grouped around him and started telling him off for the terrorist acts. They treated this poor man so horribly just because he had an accent. It's disgusting and I hate that this sort of thing happens.

Not all Americans are like this, including myself. But I am in shock and disgust that other Americans can treat their fellow man in such a horrid manner. So much hate, so much anger.

Shattered Chest
09-13-2001, 06:38 PM
I'm not from the US. I've heard everything that's happened. I am as shocked as everybody.

What is weird, is that even here, in a far away land many schools and other places had a silent minute to pay our respects to the victims of 9/11/2001. It was a good thing to do, but what I'm wondering (and what really irritates me), is WHY aren't we having silent moments every day for the people that are starving to death or dying of diseases, for example in the so-called third world countries. Instead, the whole world is shocked by something that really couldn't have been prevented, partly because it happened in a country that pushes its culture everywhere and is only therefore appreciated. If we really tried, we could help the people that are still alive and suffering. :eep:

Bronze
09-13-2001, 06:40 PM
Shadowdust I agree with you, we don't even know who has done this, but their are some who already started to blame visting Palestinians and American-Palestinians alike just because of unfounded rumors. It's sad... The events of pearl hearbor persecutions are going to repeat themselves I fear...

Dracoa
09-13-2001, 07:13 PM
I live about an hour's drive south of DC, right next to a military base. When I heard about what happened, I couldn't believe it, it had to have been a joke of some sort, but quickly the reality of it hit me and shock set in, after that it was sorrow, then the rage hit me. Those of you who know me, know me to be a peaceful man, someone who could be called a pacifist, but after seeing what happpened, if it takes a war to make them pay, lets do it. As far as the Palestinians go, if you noticed their leader did not join in the celebrating, and he in fact was opposed to it.

News reports this morning had people from Richmond talking, American-Arabs. They spoke of the racism that they were facing, the vandlism and the threats on their lives.

"Liberty or death, what we so proudly hail
once you provoke her, rattling of her tail
never begins it, never, but once engaged...
never surrenders, showing the fangs of rage

don't tread on me" - Metallica, "Don't tread on me"

We are a country united. These terrorist, these monsters will pay for their crimes, and I hope they pay in blood. We are a nation set out to end the threat of terrorist, may God have mercy on them, I know I wouldn't.

Ace Protorney
09-13-2001, 07:19 PM
It's not just the Palestinians and American-Palestinians, but Arab-Americans, Muslims, and anyone from the Middle East as a whole. But the President just announced that it is wrong to just blame every Arab-Americans, and Muslims who live in America as terrorists as a whole. It is wrong to point fingers and blame anyone. What he is doing is trying to find who is behind the attacks and let justice take place. I just find it terrible that many Mosques, houses where Arab-Americans live be spray painted and vandalized with threats from anyone who was affected by what happened Tuesday. It has happened, and each Arab-American, Muslims living in America are trying their best to live. They also feel sorry about what happened, offered condolences, gave blood, and supported America as everyone else in America. They shouldn't be labeled as supporters of terrorism, because that is not true.

BlackCapedManX
09-13-2001, 09:31 PM
Terrorist attack and deaths. Mourning and praying. Retaliation and justice. Repeat process. It's been like for the last ten years. I'm going to take this opportunity to apologize about my radical views on supporting the terrorists in their ideas, and almost in their ways. But they obviously have a reason why and I've said, it's just going to get worse unless U.S. soes something different. I say the U.S. should not be as involved in the foreign affairs as they are now. I had a heated arguement with my father last night about this whole thing. The terrorists were wrong in their action but it may be because of something that we can't just be told, something we can't just know, but something that has to be forced upon us.

And for the event itself. I'm scared for the people still trapped, and I pray for those whose loved ones have already been lost. They are doing a money collection at our school and I'm going to give some to it tomarrow. If I could, I'd give blood. I don't need to stress the importance of donating or ofgiving blood. Personally I am disgusted at the people taking action agaist people because they're palestinian or muslim. That is racism, hating because of something the person can't help, it's worse than anything else I can think of. I was watching the news, people are waving flags from cars in front and claiming "patriotism." They are destroying muslims shops and swearing at children because of a beleif. It sickens me.

Asorie
09-13-2001, 09:58 PM
Okay, well, something positive.

At our school, there is currently no student government plan to collect money to send to the Sept. 11th fund. In fact, the principal discouraged a collection of donations to send to this, for reasons I don't really understand. So a few of the students have decided to take initiative on their own.

As of right now, we are going to organize a school-wide collection that will be ongoing as long as we can still get donations. We're still in the planning stages, but suggestions such as going around with envelopes and coffee cans for change, holding bake sales and the like, and having teachers post addresses for check and online donations on bulletin boards and chalkboards. The more we gather, the better, and we're going to split it between D.C. and NYC. I suggest any of you who have the time to get involved with something like this. Donating blood is also a good idea, as is volunteering to give rides to donation centers for those who don't have cars. Posters placed on public and school bulletin boards with blood and monetary donation information would also be desirable.

In addition, my friends and I have started and spread a sort of ribbon project in memory of the victims of this tragedy. We're currently using yellow ribbons (yes, I know this is technically "taken", but it's more short term than the other yellow ribbon project, and both are noble causes, so we don't really foresee a problem) for this. We made about 25-30 today, and they were gone in a matter of minutes, with students requesting more.

So, yeah, if you have any ideas, contributions, ideas, or anything of that sort, or if you have started something at your school, post it. It would be great if we could get something national or even international going among the youth of the world. We <i>do</i> care, and we <i>can</i> do something. So let's strive to.

Linus
09-13-2001, 10:08 PM
About the ribbons, I think the ribbon for mass death is black. That's the color we used today.

Meteor of War
09-13-2001, 10:30 PM
you people who say "we should drag them to the street and shoot them" arebeing compleately irrational, sure its a tragedy, sure, its shocking but you can't justify death with more death, it will only lead to more bloodshed, if this esclates it may go on like the mideast voilence
and don't give me the "they started it" BS

Cz
09-13-2001, 10:33 PM
Firstly, yes, Ben-Ladin is under house arrest.
Second, it may sound weird, but Microsoft flight simulator could have been a possible planning tool. It is possible to crash into the world trade center, and it IS a very realistic simulation.
Thirdly, On Virgin radio, tyey played a tribute, John Lenon's 'Imagine' with backup of various famous speeches, such as the decleration of war on Germany, or Martin Luther King's 'I have a dream' speech. It was beautiful. I'm looking for a possible link to it, I'll post it if I can find one.

BlackCapedManX
09-13-2001, 10:49 PM
Oh and asorie, we are using black ribbons as well (forgot about that.) And I agree with Meteor of War.

Britt
09-13-2001, 10:54 PM
I went in to school, this morning, for the student council meeting I had to attend. The first official order of business was the unanimous approval of collection boxes across the school to donate to the American Red Cross. I thought that was cool.

Garland
09-13-2001, 11:45 PM
"I say, bomb the hell out of them," Senator Zell Miller, Democrat of Georgia, said on Wednesday. "If there's collateral damage, so be it. They certainly found our civilians to be expendable." NY Times
Looks like most Americans will get what they want. The whole of congress, the cabinet and just about anyone with a gov. position has essentially given Bush a blank check to do as he pleases in satisfying the bloodlust invoked by the barbarism of the attacks. I'm sure everyone knows, but "Collateral Damage" is civilian casualties. Essentially, SOMEONE's getting bombed. It's just a matter of finding out the best places.
I couldn't find a specific article claiming bin ladin's arrest, but the top Times headline is Colin Powell firmly asserting Bin Ladin and co as the guilty party. Afghanistan is pleeding for mercy, claiming that "no factory, nothing in their suffering country is worth the price of a single missle."
I think good or not, that Afghanistan is going to be the target of our revenge. I'm not giving any moral judgements on revenge, I'm just saying what'll happen. I feel sorry for the normal citizens who for lack of television radio and electricity are largely unaware anything at all even happenned. Hopefully "collateral damage" is minimized.
By being American, when we do show them redemtion, and the full might of American/ Nato justice comes raining down upon them, we can watch it unfold live on CNN. Is that good or bad, I dunno. I appreciated it during Desert Storm. I'm definately tuning in for this. I saw their attack as it happened, I'm going to watch the retribution. It's nice to see the entire government united in cause. Shows we can really do a lot when we put our hearts into it.

Asorie
09-13-2001, 11:54 PM
We are using yellow instead of black because while we are in mourning, yellow stands for hope. And we have hope.

Kevin_05
09-14-2001, 12:06 AM
So your saying becuase of that "pride" more people have to die?

I say the people responsible must die. Nobody should get away with what the terroists did to the US.

-N-
09-14-2001, 12:10 AM
My school ASB is pretty stringent and conservative. They won't let us start up a collection immediately due to our "Middle Eastern" population. Their interests are in good will, but their implementation is far from it. Nevertheless, I'll try to manage something off-site. I urge as many of you to engineer something of the sorts as well. Please.

Apparently, the nation has chosen war, or military action of some sort. It is depressing to hear that, depressing that my cousin died for this. *sigh* If we do resort to military action, please, please don't let it be in a fashion that will create a political backlash....

To the members of this board: Please stay strong.

edit: To the dude above me: I guess this relates to the death penalty issue. Those who think the death penalty is just most probably support complete annihilation of the terrorists. Those who don't, don't.

Midnight Sage
09-14-2001, 12:34 AM
Okay, I agree that war is stupid. People die. But what are we going to do to stop these attacks? Do you all honestly think that we can reason with these people? I, for one, cannot see any possible way. If we don't take care of them now, there will just be more and more of this happening and next, they'll probably start using Nuclear Weapons. More innocent people will die. America will be destroyed. So, if war is the only way to stop those damned fools from murdering us for their beliefs, then I say go for it.

-N-
09-14-2001, 12:43 AM
We don't have to 'reason', per se. Detainment and peaceful, civil arrest come to mind almost immediately. Also, alienation of pro-terrorist countries will eventually strangle them economically, and then there should be no more safe haven for terrorists. Of course, the latter is theoretical, and I doubt it will be accomplished in my lifetime, but still, one step at a time.

Loony BoB
09-14-2001, 02:02 AM
This is SO global now. I mean... I just heard on the radio that a bus full of Muslim children on their way to school (CHILDREN, for goodness' sake! I mean, six and seven year olds!) was damaged by stones being thrown at them.

Threats are being made to Muslim churches (I do not know the name... hosques? >_<) and this is way too much for people who didn't do nothing.

I wouldn't be surprised if thousands have already died around the world due to the mere racism that has been created by this terrorism, both by Muslims and against them. It's sick.

There are people that are keeping their entire families in home.

One guy over here got hell from his colleagues as he's a Christian married to a Muslim, and some people were threatening him...

Dr. Disco
09-14-2001, 03:23 AM
You know what gets me? I may seem like a jerk, but I find something astounding.
World peace could be. Not saying we join hands in friendship, but all countries at peace with eachother. In fact, if it weren't for the Middle East, this would probably be so.

bin Laden has said any US Citizen is a legitimate target for assassination. Now, I can see why he would want to go after the government, we backed up Israel etc. etc. But Joe Blow, who lives on a small country ranch, probably doesn't even have a TV, doesn't vote, hasn't even HEARD of the Middle East:he really deserves to die?

Marak
09-14-2001, 03:42 AM
All I can think of to add at this time is this:

Take a moment to remember how well the United States' Isolationist policies in WWII worked for us.

If we stand by, play the pacifist, turn the other cheek, and NOT go after the people/groups/countries responsible, guess what? Next time it'll be a Nuke planted in a car in California.
The US is afraid of us. They are too weak to retailiate. Let's hit them again, only harder.
That is how most terrorists think, sorry to make generalizations, but only "people" with such a mindset would be willing to execute such a heinous attack.

We must stand up tall and unleash whatever force is necessary to show these extremists that their Terror Tactics do not work.

I will shed no tears over dead terrorists. Anyone who kills another person, in my mind, has relinquished his/her right to live. And this is murder on a grand scale. Kill them all, I will not mourn for them.

Finally, let me say that I am NOT a violent person. Hell, I refuse to kill the insects that invade my home. I don't believe in wars, or in killing people. But when I saw those people dancing in the streets, singing "god is great" because America had been attacked and thousands of Americans had been killed, I wanted to go out, commandeer an F16, fly on over there and fire a couple of Hellfire guided missiles at them.

OK, I'm done ranting now. My point is, these terrorists do not recognize "doing nothing" or "peaceful resolution". They only thing they appear to respect or comprehend is violence and death. Let's give them what they want.

BlackCapedManX
09-14-2001, 03:42 AM
You know what gets me? I may seem like a jerk, but I find something astounding. World peace could be. Not saying we join hands in friendship, but all countries at peace with eachother. In fact, if it weren't for the Middle East, this would probably be so.

I doubt it. U.S.A. has been doing a pretty good job of being "friendly" with everyone. It's single groups that cause hate. And humans as a rule can't live without some pain in their lives, it's how they define pain from joy, good from bad, black from white. We could never attain a perfect World Harmony and have it accepted as status quo because humans in general retain the need for equalibrium as part of their nature. In other words, even if we could have World Peace, someone would think it bad, even though everyone else veiws it as good, and strike out at anyone. Then we would hit back, very un-peacefully I might add, and things get reduced back to the tender uneasiness we hold now. However we could reduce all war to nothing by simply not bothering other countries out-side of commercial issues. This would however lead to countries like Russia and China becoming (non-marxist) communistic, and having women raped on the streets because the government has the power to do that. There would be no war, but people would be angry in general and strike out at the government. So no matter what, we can't achive a state of global non-violence.

Dracoa
09-14-2001, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Marak
All I can think of to add at this time is this:

Take a moment to remember how well the United States' Isolationist policies in WWII worked for us.

If we stand by, play the pacifist, turn the other cheek, and NOT go after the people/groups/countries responsible, guess what? Next time it'll be a Nuke planted in a car in California.
The US is afraid of us. They are too weak to retailiate. Let's hit them again, only harder.
That is how most terrorists think, sorry to make generalizations, but only "people" with such a mindset would be willing to execute such a heinous attack.

We must stand up tall and unleash whatever force is necessary to show these extremists that their Terror Tactics do not work.

Exactly. People compared this attack to Pearl Harbor, I say Pearl Harbor has nothing on this attack. About 5000 people are missing/presumed dead in NYC. If I heard right that's about twice as many people as were lost at Pearl Harbor. We have fought back for far less than what happened Tuesday, these terrorists will pay the highest price possible, they will pay with thier lives. They aren't men, they are monsters.

As far as Nostradamus predictions go, I've only found one that may possibly relate to what happened, but not what happened in NYC.

Kupopoi
09-14-2001, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Kevin_05


I say the people responsible must die. Nobody should get away with what the terroists did to the US.

That does <b>not</b> make war the awnser. Those terrorists are not a bloody country.

mac32mac
09-14-2001, 05:57 PM
*has midddle east student sitting next to him*

aaaaaaanyways (true, i'm at school), i think all your rantings are far to much for my already complex head to comprhend, so i figure i'll just sit back and whatch the flowers go...until i get a plane driven through my frontdoor. :mad:

-Keep your eyes in the sky <------new signature :x_x:

Peegee
09-14-2001, 06:43 PM
we can't go warring against a country because of some bad apple terrorists.

plus, the terrorists comprise of a group of random people of different nationalities. the only thing similar between them all is their hatred for america....so unless u want to declare war on several countries because of 3-5 ppl.......

Red Wizard
09-14-2001, 09:06 PM
Here are some more things off of a mailing list:

Number 1:
(begin snip)
Let there be no mistake. The crimes of the United States of America are great and unforgiveable. Look at the record:

1. The United States of America is guilty of the greatest measure of economic freedom ever promulgated in the history of the world.

2. As a direct result of the first crime, the United States of America is guilty of the highest degree of personal prosperity over the longest period of time in the history of the world. This is a direct affront to the over-managed economies of the world who operate so inefficiently they cannot feed their populations.

3. The United States is guilty of promoting religious freedom. This crime weighs heavily on all those nations and peoples who know without question what the One True Faith for all mankind must be.

4. The United States is guilty of promoting political freedom. This is an outrage to those nations whose proper regard for law and order requires that they properly arrest, torture and execute those who question the wisdom of their governments.

5. The United States is guilty of promoting equality among all citizens. Women in the US are actually allowed to appear in public without covering themselves from head to toe as all moral societies require. This insane policy actually extends so far as to allow women to divorce their husbands in violation of the law of every True God and even to own property in their own names.

6. The United States is guilty of sending aid to any nation that needs it and will accept it from us. This undermines the stability of legitimate governments whose authority rests on the poverty and powerlessness of their citizens.

7. The United States is guilty of holding a policy of conducting public business in the open light of public scrutiny and to insist on the unnatural and immoral idea that the government is responsible to its citizens rather than the other way around, which is the obvious natural order.

It might be offered in mitigation of these grievous faults that the United States of America has often failed to one degree or another in this perfidious program of enlightening the world. But let the record show that no matter how clumsily at times, no matter how imperfectly, the government and people of the United States have steadfastly proclaimed their intention of pursuing these subversive ends without remorse or contrition.

Let the United States of America be judged before the bar of world opinion as a dangerous example of radical politics and uncontrolled idealism.
(end snip)

Number 2:
(begin snip)
America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to
a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon
Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the
full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the
Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans
as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people
on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were
lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in
billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of
these countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to
be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I
saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American
communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now newspapers
in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering
Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build
its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a
plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or
the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy,
and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you
get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in
the store window for everybody to look at. Even their
draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our
streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian
laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to
spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt
them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central
went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still
broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in
trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the
San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag
high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

(note that this was not written in response to this event)
(end snip)

Mad-psycho
09-14-2001, 10:04 PM
That second snip is brilliant. I live in the UK and I honestly can't think of a reason to hate american people, as they truly are the most generous people on this earth.
You knowhow to really hurt the arab countries or whoever caused this? Remove ALL american/european aid from those contires. That would hurtt them almost as much as a war.

Funkmonkey Deluxe
09-15-2001, 12:03 AM
In concern to that "quote" that keeps coming up, I just read in the newspaper today that Nostradamus never said that. It was a hoax that someone created. Also, everytime I heard the "quote" there was more added onto it. Such as a date it would happen, the statues, and the steel birds thing.

Fou_Lu
09-15-2001, 12:10 AM
This is about this subject, but my thread too. I was wrong about blowing up those countrys, I thought about it and why sink as low as they did. My new idea is to take ground troops into the three countrys: Iraq, Iran, Afghaninstan. Then we take out their millilary by foot, then we help rebuild the three countrys without those scumbucket leaders.

And don't freak out about this idea too.

krissy
09-15-2001, 12:31 AM
That would be super. It would be.
Except it seems like the people have extreme religious obligations to their leaders. It's not those countries that are the culprit yet, really. Osama Bin Ladin, right?

dunno
09-15-2001, 01:07 AM
ok let me try to explian the situation in the middle east. We get like 60 percent of our oil if not more from there and oil is our base so we sent troops in operation desert strom to stop Sudam from taking that oil so we have troops there to protect that oil and we have Isreal as an ally there that we trying to protect and then minor conflict have been going in theier bewteen a difference in the religon where about 10% belive muhamed's ancesters should rule the islams and 90% believe that others should rule so the none desecdents of muhamed who rule attack those who think muhammed should rule some of whick live in country's where we get our oil.

Now Osamen beladin and other terriest are and leaders are trying to unite islam under them and want america gone so they can invaded those countries. That is why we have these terroist attacks.

Solutions for this

find alternative energy source. Europe has been under nuclear energy for 12 years with no incedents while we only have 20% energy.

or we could continue to guard the middle east and have futher people hate us.

these are the reasons for our very presence in the middle east.

also if those countries are helping terriest then i say we go after them for harboring terriest that attacks the US is like going after the US its self and so countries know they can't go agianst us convetionually so they have terriest groups which are deniable go in and mess us up little by little.

Britt
09-15-2001, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Fou_Lu
My new idea is to take ground troops into the three countrys: Iraq, Iran, Afghaninstan. Then we take out their millilary by foot, then we help rebuild the three countrys without those scumbucket leaders.

While it's slightly better than "let's kill the bastards!" that idea is still fairly.. overzealous, I think. For one, we have no idea if Iraq or Iran are even <i>involved</i>. Secondly, that would cost a good deal of American lives. Third, as Reno said, the Middle Eastern countries hold their leaders as Gods. Why else would Iraqi citizens live so long with Saddam Hussien?

Kalen
09-15-2001, 02:51 AM
This is SO awful... I've been in Texas this week on "vacation". I watched what happened from my hotel room. So many people died... I feel like crying, but for some reasen I can't. I fear the kind of racism this awful attack will create, and I fear a war. I don't want any more people to die. >_<

Jewels
09-15-2001, 02:54 AM
<font color=#CC33FF>Is going to war gonna help restore America though? I just don't understand how the war is going to make people less angry and less sad. This is going to affect everyone for most of their lives and it's just not fair.....nothing is fair.

-N-
09-15-2001, 03:12 AM
I still say America's number 1 focus should be reconstruction.

Now is also not the time to be accusing other countries of not helping the US during past disasters, though I fully agree with the Canadian gentleman's article.

Militarily usurping the governments? Hmm... sounds remotely plausible. It would cost a lot of American lives. Remember (some of) these countries have nuclear missiles. Also, I saw on the TV that Pakistan will declare <i>jihad</i> if we attack Afghanistan, I believe.

Racism has spread throughout America, and as far as I can see that is what will prevent America from fully rising again. If you people can just find it within yourselves to forgive and forget, and just hold your head up high, then and only then will America be reunited completely. Patriotism is good, but alienating the Middle Eastern portion of society? That's like Pearl Harbor and the Japanese, Germany and the Jews... we don't want that to happen again.

I still can't stress unity enough. Perhaps I am too impatient, but still, try to forgive.

Seifer
09-15-2001, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by princeofdarknez
try to forgive.

Do you know how hard that is for the average American citizen to do? I myself will never forgive for what happened. If we sit here and try to forgive, we're just going to get killed by terrorists for being friggin softees.

-N-
09-15-2001, 03:47 AM
I am an American. My cousin is dead. I can forgive, it's the only way to move on and be strong. I expect no less.

Dr. Disco
09-15-2001, 04:14 AM
This is really astounding...

I have watched the National Prayer Service on T.V., and it's really given me hope. The message each religious leader gave was shocking:They all sounded so similar. I used to really not know what to think, and before all this I leaned towards athiesm, but I've really been thrown for a loop.
I feel like I have a newfound faith in life, and religion. I always promised if I ever had proof of God, I would believe. The past events, in some way, have made me believe in the Lord. I just pray now for a peaceful solution, and hope there is not much bloodshed.

Marak
09-15-2001, 04:46 AM
Forgiveness is a great thing. I am glad that some of us are able to forgive, however I doubt I will ever be able to do so.

One point I feel I must make: These terrorists and extremists are NOT looking for our forgiveness. They are looking for our total destruction.

Thus, I believe the only solution is to go in and forcibly remove the threat. Remember, they started it, and YES that IS a valid argument. If we must move in and use military force to eradicate these "people" and remove their governments, then so be it.

Maybe when all is said and done, and terrorism has been wiped from the face of the earth, then the world will be a better place for what transpired on Tuesday.

Until then, I refuse to play the pacifist. This thing (read: terrorism) must be stopped.

Mr. Sparkle
09-15-2001, 04:48 AM
I agree with Marak. We need to hit those terrorists and we need to hit them HARD.

On another note, Afghanistan has already warned us of retaliation if we go after Bin Laden(which isn't much of a threat against a coalition of 40 of the strongest militaries on Earth). I think we definitely need to overthrow the evil Taliban gov't there while we're going after Bin Laden. If you have ever seen what they do to their women, you'd know why.

krissy
09-15-2001, 05:12 AM
They did what?

0_0

*sign of the cross*

Sita Atis
09-15-2001, 05:27 AM
http://msnbc.com/news/628909.asp

Video games killed 40 000 people! .. :P Now everyone's paranoid.

I know that they're definately going to up the security at airports and such. I saw that report on all the obscene dangerous objects people could carry with them on planes.

krissy
09-15-2001, 05:38 AM
Media like that is expected. Bah. Link doesn't work.

Cyan Highwind
09-15-2001, 06:18 AM
``America has been called a melting pot, but it seems better to call it a mosaic, for in it each nation, people or race which has come to its shores has been privileged to keep its individuality, contributing at the same time its share to the unified pattern of a new nation.'' - King Baudouin I of Belgium (1930-1993).

Garland
09-15-2001, 06:24 AM
I heard about the Taliban's plan to "retaliate by other means" as well. I assume they aren't talking regular war. The part about the Taliban being evil and that we should get rid of it anyways, I agree with that too. You can't treat people like that and get away with it. Besides, they house Bin Ladin. Whatever we do to them is their fault. They put their own heads on the chopping block this time. All they had to do is hand over Bin Ladin for a fair trial, certainly fairer than any trial one would get there. On a related note, you know about those foreign workers accused of preaching Christianity that are on trial there? The two Americans, Australians, Germans, etc. Shouldn't we get them back before any attack, so that they don't get executed? Don't get me wrong, I'm firmly in the war camp here, we need to avenge ourselves, but the Taliban isn't well known for their human rights. Is it possible to have our cake and eat it too? Destroy the evil gov and get justice/revenge, and save the hostages too. Way too complicated. I'd never be president.

Midnight Sage
09-15-2001, 06:35 AM
I agree with anyone who thinks we should just take them all out and shoot the bloody fools. I'm really not a violent person. The biggest thing I'll ever be able to destroy is a mosquito. But now I feel like heading over there and dropping a big nuke. I, for one, will never be able to forgive. Sure, war won't bring the lost ones back, but it will stop the murders upon the American people. And sadly there is no way to stop this terrorism without a war. The sooner we take action, the better.

krissy
09-15-2001, 06:42 AM
Wouldn't you at least wait for the <b>Innocent Civilians</b> to get out? Oh wait, that's right, They don't have enough resources.
A nuclear war would kill us allat this point.

Nicolas
09-15-2001, 06:48 AM
I feel that starting a war is wrong, plain and simple. But it seems to be the only thing the people in this world is to retaliate with a shooting or bombing of some sort. George Dubbya Bush doesn't even know where to attack first. And they are WILLING to kill HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of INNOCENT people to get to Osama bin Laden. They are planning to be even worse. That's all they know how to do now-a-days...nuke 'em.

Del Murder
09-15-2001, 06:50 AM
My opinions on this:

The people in charge of doing what they have to do are the right people to be in charge. I'm talking about W., Powell, etc. They are trained to make the right decisions in these types of situations.

I was once under the impression that there is no good or evil, only differences of opinion. But this has to be evil. This is a lot different from Pearl Harbor. That was a military target and was attacked for strategy. This, this is somethig far more grave. The media is right in calling this an "Attack on America". Nothing else in our country's history even comes close to this.

People who say they don't like this coutry or they don't like Americans need to move. Also people who don't support W. in this time of need also need to move. Hell, I didn't vote for the guy either but this is the system we live in and he is our elected official. That goes for every other government official. They <i>do</i> represent us. People who don't give their support to them now need to rethink what they are doing here.

Of course people who don't live here can bad mouth us all they want. They're none of my concern.

In concerns to war and counterstrike, W. did the right thing when he said he planned to hold the countries who harbor the terrorists responsible. Now they'll be more likely to flush them out. No country wants to make an enemy out of the U.S.. People swear that if we find out that "the terrorists are hidden in Afghanistan" then we're going to start bombing the hell out of Afghanistan (pardon any spelling errors). W. and Congress will handle the situation the right way because it's their <i>job</i>.

That's all I got for now. Just remember the people in charge are a lot older than most of us they definetely know what's best more than we do.

One more thing, this 24 hour news coverage is a little much. 2 days fine, but come on, if we keep the entertainment industry (one this country's biggest industries) shut down we're showing the terrorists that this incident is weakening us.

-N-
09-15-2001, 07:29 AM
At least nukes are completely out of the question.

I now have come to pull out of my idealistic lull. I can't really expect you guys to do 'the right thing' (note the ' ') and understand you want to obliterate everything.

But at least not the innocents? Just because they killed our innocents doesn't mean we have to return the favor. Think of it this way: If we defeat these terrorists in a 'fair' (once again, note the ' ') war, then it will make them look that much more shameful for trying to use underhanded techniques to debilitate us.

Long live America.
:D :D :D :D :D
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w00t! ASCII r0x0rs!

David
09-15-2001, 08:21 AM
We don't want the innocent to die in military strikes, but it's almost inevitable. I don't like the thought of innocent men, women, and children dying as a result of madmen's insane, evil deeds, but if that is how it is going to be, that is how it is going to be. And...I fear for my family and friends if we don't make it a full scale war. I know it sounds racist, but the odds are good that many of these innocent civilians in the middle east that we might accidentally kill could very well become the suicide bombers and terrorists of next year. With such strong anti-american sentiments in middle eastern countries, killing one man will not make any difference.
The terrorists...they just don't care about eachother's lives and safety. They willingly give their lives and others' to harm us and...I can't see a group like that even being discouraged unless they feel fear for the lives of their entire nations and I have my doubts that even that will completely deter them. We will be fighting once again. We'll be fighting for our right to live without fear of impending doom. These people...not just bin Laden and the terrorists, but every man, woman and child in the middle east who cheers for the deaths of American citizens is a threat to our safety. I know it sounds like racism and generalizing, but it is also reality. If we don't make the statement that we'd sooner kill them than be killed, it'll happen repeatedly and one day they might gain enough power to come after us with something we won't be able to fight off. I don't think this country should take such a chance.

*sighs*

Sita Atis
09-15-2001, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Reno Leonheart
Media like that is expected. Bah. Link doesn't work.

http://msnbc.com/news/628909.asp

forgot the http..

*ETERNAL FANTASY*
09-15-2001, 11:46 AM
my condolences to the people who died or got injured very badley in that attack!!!!

"we will hunt down and punish those who caused this chaos!!"
(pretty much the same thing he says!!!)

g w bush's sklls and judgement will be tested in this incedent......my prayers go to the mourning family

Dagger212
09-15-2001, 12:09 PM
I’ve been trying to post on this topic for days, but I kept getting disconnected. I don’t know why, I really want to share my feelings, my thoughts. The attack was awful, the pictures in the paper were horrific, the videos on the news heartbreaking. Even though I’m in the UK, the attack has left me devastated. In the newspaper there are pictures of the deceased, some at their weddings, graduations, or just sat holding a family member close. One, of a little girl who was about four was particularly sad. She was killed in one of the planes, at only four years of age. The innocence shone on her face, who could anyone kill someone like that. Everyone who was involved, be it you mother, father, sister, brother, aunt, uncle you have my deepest sympathy. As for the victims, I pray for you, pray that the bastards who killed you will be brought to justice.
All those people, had their lives ahead of them, dreams for the future. Now, they will never be lived. No one deserves a death like that, except the bastards who did it. They deserve everything that they get.
I’m crying now, one of my e-pals lived in New York, and I haven't heard from them in ages. Normally, we email each other every day, but they haven't been online. I hope they are ok, but deep down I am expecting the worst.

dunno
09-15-2001, 02:43 PM
this is one of the saddest things I have thought of yet but we will all probably know some there and probably some one died from EOFF.

Johnny Mac
09-15-2001, 07:16 PM
What a traggidy(sp?). That was not only an attack on the U.S. it was also an attack on the rest of the world. I was and still am extremely outraged about the situation. I personally think we should bomb the &lt;bleep>. The states should go in to afganastan, egypt and irak and carpet bomb the shameless mother &lt;bleep> for oh I don't know how does 20 days straight all day all night sound. Wipe them all out. If you willingly harbor terrorists in your country and give them asylem then you are just as guilty as the terrorists themselves which makes those people &lt;bleep> outa &lt;bleep> luck in my book!
Oh yeah and the muslums have the awdasity(sp?) to dance in there streets and cheer and all that &lt;bleep>. &lt;Bleep>! killem all!!!!!!:grr:
P.S - sorry for the swearing but I couldn't help myself!

<b>Edit by Unne: I dislike having to censor people.</b>

krissy
09-15-2001, 10:40 PM
Kill them because they're happy?

I didn't like it any more than you did...
But...

What will your reaction be when Osama Bin Ladin is executed?
These people don't realize that civilians have been killed, it's, sad, really.

But I understand the sentiment. Even the most self-proclaimed pacifist will raise arms when their family is attacked.

crono_logical
09-16-2001, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Johnny Mac
What a traggidy(sp?). That was not only an attack on the U.S. it was also an attack on the rest of the world. I was and still am extremely outraged about the situation. I personally think we should bomb the &lt;bleep>. The states should go in to afganastan, egypt and irak and carpet bomb the shameless mother &lt;bleep> for oh I don't know how does 20 days straight all day all night sound. Wipe them all out. If you willingly harbor terrorists in your country and give them asylem then you are just as guilty as the terrorists themselves which makes those people &lt;bleep> outa &lt;bleep> luck in my book!
Oh yeah and the muslums have the awdasity(sp?) to dance in there streets and cheer and all that &lt;bleep>. &lt;Bleep>! killem all!!!!!!:grr:
P.S - sorry for the swearing but I couldn't help myself!

<b>Edit by Unne: I dislike having to censor people.</b>

I also dislike stereotyping people just because they belong to a particular group. I know many Muslims in my neighbourhood but they're all peaceful and not all war-hungry for blood, most of them were also saddenned by this event. If a Nazi came and killed your family, would you be justified in going after all Germans? Here in Britain there's many bombings by the IRA, but we don't wage a war on the whole of Ireland, but only go after those who are <I>known</I> to be involved.


Originally posted by Johnny Mac
Oh yeah and the muslums have the awdasity(sp?) to dance in there streets and cheer and all that &lt;bleep>. &lt;Bleep>! killem all!!!!!!:grr:
P.S - sorry for the swearing but I couldn't help myself!

<b>Edit by Unne: I dislike having to censor people.</b>

I think you're referring to the Palestinians. Why don't you try to look at the bombing from their point of view, what they've been through at the hands of Israel with the support of the American government over the past few years, then you'll understand their reaction. You need to look at events from an unbiased point of view before drawing conclusions such as killing a whole group of people off, not from the biased points of view of the media who mostly all happen to be western hence siding with the Americans on all possible issues.

Britt
09-16-2001, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by David
And...I fear for my family and friends if we don't make it a full scale war.

You guys <i>do</i> realize that waging full scale war on Afghanistan WILL cause Pakistan to break all ties with us and retaliate, right? Pakistan has nuclear weapons. Full scale war is MORE dangerous for America.

Actually, I take that back. Full scale war is more dangerous for all of humanity.

Stevo
09-16-2001, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by Linus
War is <i><b>POINTLESS.</b></i>

AND STOP USING THOSE DAMN METAPHORS! Nobody crashed a stupid car, nobody beat up your sibling, nobody did jack like that. You need to look at the current situation and NOT make metaphors that are like our situation. Anyways, let's just PRETEND Afghanistani government had something to do with this. We wipe them out. Then what? We have a big stinkin' hole, lots of very pissed off civilians, a country with no leaders, etc. How would we, the American people, feel good about killing off a government when we're CAUSING pain and suffering. We won't be dancing in the streets, that's for sure. In other words, once the perpetrators are gone, do we celebrate? In the end, it won't matter one bit and we'll have done more wrong than right.

Indeed. By starting a war and killing Bin Laden, He will be a Martyr to the terrorists, which will in the future will make the terrorists go on and do more damage to the US for killing their leader.

Selphie
09-16-2001, 02:48 AM
im worried about this whole war thing......i dont want my brother to get drafted:(



~Selphie

The Professor
09-16-2001, 02:59 AM
I think we need to try to be acting more positively. I'm not saying we can't grieve, I am doing that myself, and I'm not saying we can't remember, but they're showing the same slow, sad song on VH1 all day. MTV's been trying to lift our spirits, though, I saw Black & White by Michael Jackson twice. (This could be counted as depressing for some people, though.) :D They need to stop jawing off the same nuclear war stuff that they were spouting all this morning on ABC, do ya think that's gonna make anyone feel better? I don't think so. I'm trying to make a tiny effort to brighten up the place here, by putting, in my opinion, the funniest movie ever (Mallrats, NO, Clerks was not better, close, but not) as my "theme". So if we could try to not be so dark and depressing about everything as we have been, I think it will greatly lift our nation's spirits and help us to think clearer in time like this.

But that's just my opinion.

David
09-16-2001, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by Britt


You guys <i>do</i> realize that waging full scale war on Afghanistan WILL cause Pakistan to break all ties with us and retaliate, right? Pakistan has nuclear weapons. Full scale war is MORE dangerous for America.

Actually, I take that back. Full scale war is more dangerous for all of humanity.

Hmph, too late. Afghanistan leaders have told their people to prepare for a holy war. If we go after bin Laden, they'll retaliate. Talk to us all you want about how stupid it is of us to go to war. Why don't some of you who are against it offer some suggestions of just HOW we'd get bin Laden out of Afghanistan without military action seeing as how Afghanistan isn't going to let us anywhere near him?


Pakistan is torn in half on the subject of whether or not to help the US. Half of the population there thinks that the US got what it deserved while the other half thinks it was an act of evil. The Pakistani government has absolutely no idea what they're going to do.

Britt
09-16-2001, 05:56 AM
Through negociating with Pakistan, as we have been doing. If anyone can peaceably convince the Afghans to relinquish bin Laden, its Pakistan.

David
09-16-2001, 06:20 AM
Won't work. Afghanistan has already said that if Pakistan gives in to any of America's demands, they'll consider them as an enemy as well. If Pakistan tries to get ahold of bin Laden through negotiations, Afghanistan will instantly put two and two together and realize that they're helping us.

SubmoDuck
09-16-2001, 07:49 AM
Read this.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html

Britt
09-16-2001, 07:57 AM
That's exactly what I'm saying. One can't easily bomb Bin Laden to the moon when they haven't a clue where he is, and nobody wants to talk. The only methods I can think of are negociation and ground-troop raids. But even mass ground-troop raids on Taliban officials, as awful as that is, would be preferrable to bombing the country.

Dracoa
09-16-2001, 08:04 AM
For those of you who are afraid of their nukes, I say don't be. Be afraid of their Bio and Chem weapons. Those will do far more damage than their nukes.

Kalen
09-16-2001, 08:11 AM
I can't believe the people who think we should go bomb the whole freakin' country. Jesus. Think of all the people that would die who didn't agree with what happened. All the children that have no idea of what's going on. I don't think I could ever forgive what the terrorists did, but I can't see the difference between what they did and what we would be doing by bombing that country. Just the idea of it makes me sick.

"It may sound harsh, but we may have to kill a few people who weren't directly related to the attack" --I heard someone on TV say this... I can't even think of the words to describe how sick it makes me feel. >_<

David
09-16-2001, 08:16 AM
Ground troops are much better than air raids for many reasons. Ground troops can distinguish between the innocent and guilty much better than missiles lauched from thousands of feet in the air. Ground troops show that we're willing to send our own people in to get the job done and that we're not going to rely on sloppy, innacurate missiles in hopes that somewhere in the wreckage is bin Laden. Ground troops will know for sure when we've got the job done.

Unfortunately, most senators are afraid of sending in ground troops because they know that MUCH less <i>American</i> lives will be lost if we use air raids, regardless of how many innocent Afghani citizens get killed. I don't like that fact any more than anyone else, but it's how the officials feel.

I'd much rather see a ground war over there, but our logic will be that American troops will be safer with air strikes.

Red Wizard
09-16-2001, 04:54 PM
I guess that you odon't know very much about modern warfare and tactics then. Inaccurate carpet bombing went out with the vietnam police action. (It wasn't a war, it was a UN police action) Now we have cruise missles and bombs that can navigate through a city to hit one specific building. We can destroy anything they have with pinpoint accuracy. Despite all this, if push comes to shove, we will need ground troops, but if we can avoid it, we will use surgical strikes, as it will reduce the death count on _both_ sides. I myself hope that itr doesn't come down to war, but I think that you people assume _way_ too much about war.

David
09-16-2001, 07:01 PM
Can you say that any innocent civilians that would be in the area won't get killed because of it? I don't care how smart a missile is, it can't tell the difference between right and wrong. As soon as you can show me a missile that stops when it knows it's going to kill someone who's innocent, I'll believe that air-to-ground combat is a cleaner and more just form of warfare. I know the capabilities of modern guided missiles, but I also know that they're still just machines without the ability to think for themselves.

Shattered Chest
09-16-2001, 07:02 PM
Can't you start talking about people in poor countries? And the weapons to kill everyone who is not helping them? Okay.

Dr. Disco
09-16-2001, 07:33 PM
Bush has officially declared war. He's calling up the reserves, and saying to prepare for a long, drawn-out war on terrorism.

Asorie
09-16-2001, 07:36 PM
"Tonight I saw something I tend to rarely see in people- unity and a great deal
of spirit.

My friend Brianna and I have been making yellow ribbons with little tags on
them in memory and respect to those directly involved in the September 11th
tragedy. We made at least 400 today, and they're all gone now, mostly due to
the pro-patriotism demonstration we happened upon on the corner of 41 and 30
in Schererville, IN. I guess it wasn't totally spontaneous, but a few people
just kinda showed up, and we were among those.

There was a lot of flag waving and screaming and clapping as we got people to
honk their horns in support for America, in a sense of togetherness and
respect for our freedom - so much that I don't have a voice any longer after
two hours of that. Nearly everyone honked; people did burnouts, and police
flashed their lights at us. There were cameras going off and people screaming
"U S A!" from their cars and blaring "Proud To Be An American" on their
radios. It was touching when the people of Arab descent were just as
patriotic as anyone else, because that helped dispell some of the racial
tension that you could tell people were feeling, and I'm proud of my fellow
Americans, no matter what their color, religion, or origin. Pride isn't
white. It's not black, brown, yellow, or pale. It's not Christian, Muslim,
Jewish, Atheist, or Wiccan. It's universal.

One woman forced $21 into Bina's hand after we gave her two ribbons (we
weren't selling them; they were free), and we're donating that to the Red
Cross. We're going to try for another 500-600 ribbons for the candlelight
vigil tomorrow night in Crown Point, and 500 more for Monday morning at
school, but we don't know if we can do it, since there's only two of us. We'll
try, anyway.

I guess the point of this whole ramble is that while the worst is being
brought out in many people, the best is being brought out in others. There
isn't anything that could ever make this a good situation, but if there is a
silver lining to the cloud we're in, this is it. Being able to get together
with people you'd never talk to otherwise and just rally people to have pride
and not be afraid is something that I don't think enough of us have had the
chance to do...perhaps our chance is now?"

--Angela Mazur, posted to Top5 contributor list at 1:45 am Saturday

Red Wizard
09-16-2001, 08:06 PM
In resoponse to david's post:
You do know, of course, that someone actually picks a target for a missle to hit, right? I mean, it's not like we just randomly fire missles into a city. It's also not like we will somehow mysteriously bomb a few hotels and businees complexes. As I have addressed earlier, of course innocent people are going to die! It's a war for crying out loud! In any act of hostility there will be attrition and collateral damage. It's one of those thing that can't be avoided. Unfortunately for us, many idealists don't see that, and only focus on the smaller picture. If you look at the big picture, there will be an overall reduction in the loss of life if a war is ended quickly. Look at what happened to us in Vietnam. The people decided that we shouldn't be fighting, and the government lost public support, causing us to lose what should have been an easy win. In this case however, we have been directly attacked, and if we don't stop it now, who knows what else might happen? Which would you rather see happen: another World Trade Center, or a quick war? How many catasrophes does it take to make all you people realize that the world is not a nice place in which innocent people are spared? If you would stop being so naive as to even think that we can fight a war without killing civilians then maybe we can discuss the advantages and disadvantages of remote warfare, but until then you can sit around wondering why the world isn't perfect. If I seem to harsh, it's because one of my makor pet peeves is misinformed people.

Yuffie, the reason we aren't talking about poor people is because this isn't the thread to do it in. If you are that worried about it, then you should start a new topic rather than complaining about it in this one.

Cyan Highwind
09-16-2001, 08:38 PM
Has anyone heard anymore about the Bin Laden tapes?
Apparently he's sent us one before every terrorist action A.K.A: The U.N embassy bombings on africa, the 1993 attack on the world trade center. And he sent us on last week. Oh, and Bin laden bought the empty seats on the planes for a person advantage and 100 seats being empty on a east to west 8:00 Am Buisness flight (which are ussaly full) Didn't raise a red flag to the airports?

Britt
09-16-2001, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Red Wizard
If I seem to harsh, it's because one of my major pet peeves is misinformed people.

One of mine is insulting people.

What's to think this won't happen again <i>anyway?</i> Killing Bin Laden isn't going to raise a flag to all terrorists across the world, declaring "You can't attack us anymore." Yes, it will eliminate Bin Laden. I don't mean to imply that I think Bin Laden (rather, whoever did this) shouldn't die, because they should. They have comitted an act of war against the world. But, as corny as this sounds, as long as there is evil in the hearts of men, it will continue. Also, like I said, attacking Afghanistan directly, with missles, will inspire the wrath of Pakistan. So, yeah. A shooting war is more dangerous for everyone. We'd lose less people in a covert ground assault than we would in the aftermath of a Pakistani/Afghanistani missle barrage.


Originally posted by Red Wizard
If you are that worried about it, then you should start a new topic rather than complaining about it in this one.

I'd prefer you not talk to another member like that. Okay?

Red Wizard
09-16-2001, 10:40 PM
Read you loud and clear Britt. I apologize if I was a little to harsh/insulting, but I was kind of peeved that nobody had read my previous posts basically stating what I had said earlier. I don't mean to belittle anyone's opinions, I only want to convey my side of the issue. If I was inappropriate in my means of delivery, I am truly sorry.

Dr. Disco
09-16-2001, 11:04 PM
Actually Britt, Pakistan is cooperating with the US, and sealing their borders near Afghanistan.

-N-
09-16-2001, 11:22 PM
Actually, Dr. Disco, the Pakistani <b>government</b> has agreed to cooperate. The Pakistani <b>people</b> are set in heart: towards Afghanistan.

Already Pakistani families send their children to the Taliban to be trained mercenaries in the war for Kashmir. They could care less for the United States.

The worst-case scenario is that the fundamentalist Pakistanis will overthrow Musharraf and set their own pro-Taliban government and ally with them. These fundamentalist Pakistanis are the same that have set up terrorist camps in Kashmir against the Indians and Hindus.

Speaking of Kashmir, it has been decreed that Hindus should distinguish themselves from Muslims by placing a red dot of rose powder on their foreheads. For what? To distinguish, when the time comes, whom should be killed and whom should be spared? To initiate another Holocaust?

India, Pakistan's arch-nemesis, is also cooperating, more whole-heartedly, with the United States, giving locations of Pakistan's terrorist camps in the Kashmir region. However, yesterday a 10-year old boy was shot by an assassin. The note left on his body read, roughly translated, to <i>"If you continue to cooperate with the US, this will happen again."</i>

The assassins were most probably minority Muslims living in India. Their terror continues to spread in the Eastern region.

In the absolute worst-case scenario.... no, I don't want to believe that will ever happen. That.... just can't happen.

I hope my pro-Indian bias is not too prevalent in this post.

Cyan Highwind
09-17-2001, 01:53 AM
In a way your wrong...
You President bush talked the the Pakistani president and basicly said you cooperate or we take over your country and search for bin laden in laymens terms he Made them and over they couldn't refuse (either your signature or your brains will be on this contract)
And Personally I think we should go to the mattresses with terrorism and I full heartdly support all of our allies help.

Britt
09-17-2001, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Disco
Actually Britt, Pakistan is cooperating with the US, and sealing their borders near Afghanistan.

That's correct. Their conditions: That the United States keep a level-head and go about the situation reasonably. Bombarding Taliban buildings, in their eyes, is not reasonable.

Mr. Mojo Risin
09-17-2001, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by Britt
Also, like I said, attacking Afghanistan directly, with missles, will inspire the wrath of Pakistan. So, yeah. A shooting war is more dangerous for everyone. We'd lose less people in a covert ground assault than we would in the aftermath of a Pakistani/Afghanistani missle barrage. How would a covert ground assault be any less insulting than a missle barrage to Pakistan? Also, by killing Bin Laden and dismantling his crew, it will send a strong message to the rest of the terrorists. And if any country/gov't supports a terrorist why should they be allowed to exist? You say that evil will continue to exist, but if we do nothing then evil becomes much worse. The Taliban is as evil as communism or Nazism. They hate everything America stands for: individuality, democracy and we love them Jews(I was being grossly sarcastic there).
Now that the Pakistani gov't is cooperating with us, we don't have to fear a big military conflict with the Taliban, because they don't have the military might put up a fight. I don't think the U.S. will allow Pakistan to suffer a coup, especially if it's by pro-Taliban forces. In exchange, Pakistan gets finiacial aid and debt relief.
I hope, in the end, the Taliban will be eliminated. I can't comprehend why we let such a group exist for so long. In fact, only three countries recognize them as an official gov't. One of them is/was the Pakistan.

Cyan Highwind
09-17-2001, 03:13 AM
25 years Sun Tzu wrote profoundly on the art of war: break the will the of the enemy to fight and you accomplish the true objective of war. Cover with ridicule the enemys tradition. Exploit and aggravate the inherent fricton within the enemy country. Agitate the young agianst the old. Prevail if possible without armed conflict. The supreme is not to win a hundred victories in a hundred battles. The sumpreme excellence is to defeat the armies without ever having to fight them.
Bin Laden has done exactly this.

Jon
09-17-2001, 05:47 AM
I never understood the objection to 'Cruel and Unusual Punishment'. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment - and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mechanism?...As for 'Unusual', punishment MUST be unusual, or it serves no purpose...What would happen if you were to spank a puppy every hour?...It certainly will not teach him anything. - Robert A. Heinlein, <i>Starship Troopers</i>

That's why I beleive this country to use all means necessary to neutralize (dispose of, destroy, kill, whatever your particular term may be) the person, persons, knowing governments, and yes, unfortunately, innocent civilians who are on the wrong side of the battle line, which is shaping up to be the Afghan border. The Taliban will never let us have Bin Laden in World Court, even if he IS innocent of this. That's why, if he did do it, the Taliban must be faced down by this country as well. We made a mistake by using only the court systems in other terrorism cases IMHO. This country needs to send an example to everyone, EVERYONE, who may be thinking of commiting a terrorist act against this country. We are a Giant who has been awakened through the use of a 2x4 to the head. This giant is going to hit back.

Britt
09-17-2001, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by Jon
... and yes, unfortunately, innocent civilians who are on the wrong side of the battle line, which is shaping up to be the Afghan border.

That's really kind of... sad. Why do we oppose Afghanistan/Bin Laden in the first place? Because they massacred innocents. How do we react? I should certainly hope we wouldn't react by slaughtering more innocents just because "they are on the wrong side of the battle line," seeing as how the very reason we were attacked was because <i>we</i> were on the wrong side of the battle line. I'm sorry, but I don't understand how that works.

Marak
09-17-2001, 06:46 AM
Don't forget that a lot of the "smart" bombs and missiles (like the ones we've been using on Iraq lately) have been, shall we say, less than accurate. I've read several reports in the newspaper about "smart" and guided weapons going astray and missing targets.
So, I don't believe air warfare is the answer, although my initial gut reaction on Tuesday was "let's go nuke 'em!".
After thinking about it more, and seeing the devolpments on CNN, et al., it just seems that going in with troops is prolly the only way to go. YES, it means Americans dead, but guess what? You sign up for military, you understand and accept the fact that you could be called into active combat and killed. There's a reason the Armed Forces throw so much money at you when they try to get you to sign up.
And did anyone hear the latest? The legit Pakistani (I believe it was Pakistani, anyway, although it may have been one of it's neighbors) government pledged the support of 15,000 ground troops if America decides to go in. I like them odds!

Asorie
09-17-2001, 08:29 AM
Incidentally, Marak, revenge will not prevent this from happening again. I've got news for you. They don't have to get through our borders. They're already here. And revenge from us is only going to cause more American deaths within American borders when the hidden cells strike back.

This is going to be ugly, no matter how we do it. It's going to be a battleground not far removed from the guerilla warfare of Vietnam, only not all of the battlegrounds will be across the world from us. Some of them will be in our backyards. And we are going to war now...it's definite.

The problem with "taking out Bin Laden" is that it's not going to send the message that people maintain it will. Sure, a few terrorist groups will be on their toes for a while. But we cannot eradicate terrorism anymore than the War on Drugs eradicated drugs in the USA. It just doesn't work. So thousands more people are going to die, and in the end, we'll get our revenge on Bin Laden...but at too high a cost.

Jewels
09-17-2001, 08:41 AM
<font color=#CC33FF>Since the war is definite now, who are the Americans gonna go against? I'm still not sure. And since the war is about starting, will the Americans be going over.....to wherever they are planning to fight?

SubmoDuck
09-17-2001, 08:59 AM
It's not as though this will be a "normal" war. This will be a war againstmany groups, not just Bin Ladin's.
I don't if many of you realize just how much influence Bin Ladin has on the terrorist community. Bin Ladin has not only attacked the United States, but also Great Britian, Russia, Germany, several mid-eastern countries (including Iraq for some odd reason). The man truly does not care who, just as long as someone dies. If he was so self-righteous, it would have been him in one of those planes.

-Submo Duck

Asorie
09-17-2001, 02:22 PM
He's rather the Charles Manson of the terrorist world- charismatic, intelligent, and resourceful enough to be dangerous. It's men like him that start dangerous cults, kill people for fun, and completely disregard the value of life. I mean, obviously. The problem is that we could kill him- but within a couple months, another would take his place. There's no shortage of insane jihad-waging militant fundamentalist Muslims in the world.

Marak
09-17-2001, 03:15 PM
It's all fine and dandy to sit and say
"This won't work"
and
"That won't work"
but
all of the people on this thread who oppose war never seem to give a viable solution to back up the "support justice" viewpoint. Do you REALLY think that Bin Laden is just going to sit there and allow the US or the Pakistani government to capture him alive so we can put him on trial and achieve justice?

Morticia
09-17-2001, 04:57 PM
Uh; whoever said that Pakistan is pledging troops is on crack. Pakistan will let us in their airspace and will maybe let us go in through their border; but they aren't going to give us aid in the form of troops.

And; bin Lauden won't wait on justice. His Jyhad buddies would break him out of prision.

I hate to say it; but we are going to have to do something to break the spirit of the entire fundamentalist Muslim community; innocent or not. We are going to have to make them think that Allah has forsaken them. My idea includes taking control of the Dome of the Rock in Mecca; but I've been told it's not a good one.

Asorie is right; this war will take place against terrorist cells here in the US as well as the groups in Afghanistan. That's why everyone here needs to get a handgun and learn to shoot. (That also means learning WHEN to shoot and when to NOT shoot.)

Phoenix

Julia
09-18-2001, 12:10 AM
Ehh, all i know is that what i saw on the darn tube was Israelians were throwing banquets and tossing party favors. I bet they had spent what ever money to celebrate the weakening of one of the most supreme countries.

Celebrate? ha! what good ever came out of USA's terrible loss? would those stupid israelians celebrate if all their homes and possessions were taking deleberately through force once again?

Darn Israelians are forgeting who it is that will soon eventually OWN THEM! The situation is kinda like a few games i play(Counter-Strike and Diablo 2) In Counter-Strike there's a terrorist team and Counter-terrorist team. The object is to either complete the mission objectives or wipe out the whole team.

Now, in every team there's usually an extroadinary player. But what happens if the opposing team takes out your extroadinary player? Well, i 'll tell ya, Your team is now practically crippled and the round goes to the other team.

In Diablo 2, if you mess with a higher lvl character, then your practically doomed.(sorry, i just realized how this doesn't connect)

But never the less someone just doesn't know their limitations and thats not the USA.

However, fricking Bush is just a procrasinator. He says stuff, but lately he hasn't done anything extroadinary to boost the situation up to a more pleasant and comforable to work with level.

Exaggerated Quote:" The something of the United States is being tested, but something something, We will show the world that we can pass this test."

Thats the only good thing he's done so far, say something inspirational. He should have been made as moral officer, one who watches and tries to up the level of moral in the US a few levels.

Loud mouth Bush is gonna cause more probs.

But just remember, verything i say is of MY opinion, if you got something to say about it, please phrase it in a respectable manor. I'm only denouncing Bush in my little post.

later all(please don't go around slandering me, I haven't been on lately and i personally don't appreciate Bush's actions)

zell666
09-18-2001, 12:18 AM
this nis the line right here and the x is how far they have crossed it...
l
l
l








x
I am so damn pissed right now its not funny.I wish i were old enough to go over there and kick some afghan ass.Those stupid sonofabitch's otta rot in hell. :shoot:
(sorry for the extensive cusin')

Endless
09-18-2001, 12:31 AM
Israelians ? Are you on crack ?
They would prolly be the last to make a party if the USA were taken down.

This has nothing in common with video games. Sorry to sound harsh, but you should really start to be aware that this is way more important than a counter-strike game.


Besides, whatever my personal opinions on Bush during normal times,
1) I'll let him do what he decides to do, because he is the President, and I am not; plus I wouldn't like to be at his place.
2) I know he won't decide alone, so, I'll wait to make comments.

Asorie
09-18-2001, 01:21 AM
First of all, they're called Israelis. Secondly, it was the Palestinians who were celebrating. If you're going to criticize someone, at least get your facts straight. Also, that's treading dangerously close to racism.


I hate to say it; but we are going to have to do something to break the spirit of the entire fundamentalist Muslim community; innocent or not. We are going to have to make them think that Allah has forsaken them. My idea includes taking control of the Dome of the Rock in Mecca; but I've been told it's not a good one.

Phoenix, normally I respect everything you say, but this just about made me throw up. Especially considering that you're a fairly devout Christian. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. What if I went to burn down your church because I didn't like the attitude many Christians take against people like me? Would that be right? Even if they had hurt me, would that make me any better than them? No. So when you're ready for someone to attack your faith in your god, then you have the right to make someone else think that "Allah has forsaken them."

Jojee
09-18-2001, 11:58 PM
<font color="pink">I didn't read through this whole thread, or the one before, but just judging from this page, I feel sad that some people want to destroy the innocent people of Afghanistan… They didn't do anything, and what good will hurting them do? The Afghan people are suffering already. Did anyone see the parade of their army on TV? Their economy is down, they're poor… <I>they</I> didn't want this to happen. That's like saying Timothy McVeigh committed the Oklahoma City Bombing, and now all Americans encourage violence and terrorism. OK, so maybe that wasn't the best example, but Asorie is right, <I>revenge will not help</I>. This is an article my AP World History teacher gave me… please read it over and think about it.

---
Dear Friends,
Yesterday I heard a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage," and he asked, What else can we do? What is your suggestion?" Minutes later I heard a TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about these issues especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's been going on over there. So I want to share a few thoughts with anyone who will listen.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York.

I fervently wish to see those monsters punished. But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who captured Afghanistan in 1997 and have been holding the country in bondage ever since. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a master plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in concentration camps."

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. There were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would love for someone to eliminate the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country. I guarentee it.

Some say, if that's the case, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban themselves? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, damaged, and incapacitated. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan-- a country with no economy, no food.

Millions of Afghans are widows of the approximately two million men killed during the war with the Soviets. And the Taliban has been executing these women for being women and have buried some of their opponents alive in mass graves. The soil of Afghanistan is littered with land mines and almost all farms have been destroyed. The Afghan people have tried to overthrow the Taliban. They haven't been able to.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble with that scheme is, it's already been done. The Soviets took care of it. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? There is no infrastructure. Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only land in the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. (They have already, I hear.) Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals would did this horrific thing. Actually it would be making common cause with the Taliban- by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling.

The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in therewith ground troops. I think that when people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" many of them are thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed.

They are not thinking about overcoming moral qualms about killing innocent people. But it's the belly to die not kill that's actually on the table. Americans will die in a land war to get Bin Laden. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks.

To get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first.

Will other Muslim Mations just stand by? You see where I'm going. The invasion approach is a flirtation with global war between Islam and the West.

And that is Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants and why he did this thing. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there.

AT the moment, of course, "Islam" as such does not exist. There are Muslims and there are Muslim countries, but no such political entity as Islam. Bin Laden believes that if he can get a war started, he can constitute this entity and he'd be running it. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in Muslim lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong about winning, in the end of the west would probably overcome- whatever that would mean in such a war; but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden, yes, but anyone else?

I don't have a solution. But I do believe that suffering and poverty are the soil in which terrorism grows. Bin Laden and his cohorts want to bait us into creating more such soil, so they and their kind can flourish. We can't let him do that.

That is my humble opinion.
Tamim Ansary
------

-N-
09-19-2001, 01:01 AM
*lsol at zell666*

I have nothing new to say, because this conversation has not changed one bit. I just ledol at zell, providing much-needed smiles at this hour for me. :D

Yeah, and killing innocents isn't quite the way to go. And how would a covert op be worse than a missile barrage? Actually, both aren't that great, we can instead support internal revolution rather than external by supporting the anti-Taliban resistance. That's all it will take. Give them weapons and helicopters and training and let <i>them</i> go at it.

Dr. Disco
09-19-2001, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Jojo
<font color="pink">I didn't read through this whole thread, or the one before, but just judging from this page, I feel sad that some people want to destroy the innocent people of Afghanistan… They didn't do anything, and what good will hurting them do? The Afghan people are suffering already. Did anyone see the parade of their army on TV? Their economy is down, they're poor… <I>they</I> didn't want this to happen. That's like saying Timothy McVeigh committed the Oklahoma City Bombing, and now all Americans encourage violence and terrorism. OK, so maybe that wasn't the best example, but Asorie is right, <I>revenge will not help</I>. This is an article my AP World History teacher gave me… please read it over and think about it.

---
Dear Friends,
Yesterday I heard a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage," and he asked, What else can we do? What is your suggestion?" Minutes later I heard a TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about these issues especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's been going on over there. So I want to share a few thoughts with anyone who will listen.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York.

I fervently wish to see those monsters punished. But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who captured Afghanistan in 1997 and have been holding the country in bondage ever since. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a master plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in concentration camps."

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. There were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would love for someone to eliminate the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country. I guarentee it.

Some say, if that's the case, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban themselves? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, damaged, and incapacitated. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan-- a country with no economy, no food.

Millions of Afghans are widows of the approximately two million men killed during the war with the Soviets. And the Taliban has been executing these women for being women and have buried some of their opponents alive in mass graves. The soil of Afghanistan is littered with land mines and almost all farms have been destroyed. The Afghan people have tried to overthrow the Taliban. They haven't been able to.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble with that scheme is, it's already been done. The Soviets took care of it. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? There is no infrastructure. Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only land in the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. (They have already, I hear.) Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals would did this horrific thing. Actually it would be making common cause with the Taliban- by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling.

The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in therewith ground troops. I think that when people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" many of them are thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed.

They are not thinking about overcoming moral qualms about killing innocent people. But it's the belly to die not kill that's actually on the table. Americans will die in a land war to get Bin Laden. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks.

To get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first.

Will other Muslim Mations just stand by? You see where I'm going. The invasion approach is a flirtation with global war between Islam and the West.

And that is Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants and why he did this thing. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there.

AT the moment, of course, "Islam" as such does not exist. There are Muslims and there are Muslim countries, but no such political entity as Islam. Bin Laden believes that if he can get a war started, he can constitute this entity and he'd be running it. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in Muslim lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong about winning, in the end of the west would probably overcome- whatever that would mean in such a war; but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden, yes, but anyone else?

I don't have a solution. But I do believe that suffering and poverty are the soil in which terrorism grows. Bin Laden and his cohorts want to bait us into creating more such soil, so they and their kind can flourish. We can't let him do that.

That is my humble opinion.
Tamim Ansary
------

That's fantastic. This needs to be a circulating e-mail...

-N-
09-19-2001, 01:23 AM
So do many things that never do. My essay for example. *gripes at the editor who didn't publish it in the Union-Tribune*

Julia
09-19-2001, 02:52 AM
Ok, in my previous post, I admit there were a few things off wack but hey, thats jus how chaotic this scenario is.

Now lets try to get some facts straight, What is going on? From start to what is the end for the time being.

Can anyone canswer this ponderous question? because i can't.

So, lets ask ourselves this..... how many of us really can't feel and sorrow for the people who died?

There are people who were buried, people who were engulfed in flames while being shattered by tons of metal shards and glass pieces. who cannot feel any bit of sorrow for these individuals? I can. I, just as many others, has no right to say....ehh, so what.......... because it could have happened to me considering i live so close by New York in New Jersey. No one else has that right either. It could have happened to any one anywhere.

To those who are subscribed to TIME magazine, you all should have gotten a special edition issue of the incident.(truly something of great importance since there aren't any advertisements in the issue) In there are actual photos of certian sites before and after the crash and collapsing. I saw a photo of THREE people jumping, actually jumping, out of the buildings windows.

now lets ask ourselves this..... who thinks thats scary, funny, or heart-shattering? if your choices are the first two then you truly have a sick mind. Remember, it could have happened to your family and you in your town. Now i don't know what is going on with Bush and why he is taking so long to make a finaly decision, but for the people who had no last words, no last chances, and no chance for survival are victims that may continue to add on to the list of dead men and women if Bush is going to allow enough time for the terrorist to plan another Strike........

DO NOT MAKE ANY JOKES ABOUT THIS INCIDENT. RESPECT WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND HOPE FOR A CHANCE FOR THIS NIGHTMARE TO END. I Don'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK, DO NOT SAY DUMB THINGS THAT ARE MERELY FOR PLAY. ex. "I wish i were old enough to kick some afghan ass" <This is not right and not serious, it's a mere joke.


I and a whole bunch of other most appreciate it if you took some time to read my post. I myself say some dumb things but for such deaths and sacrafices, there is no room for anf foolishness.

Light 40 candels or something in your homes and hang the American Flag to show you do care and to prove that you wish you could do something about it.

imaqine what it would look like if it were you in that building or a relative. Would you want that to happen??

-L.E.

Dr. Disco
09-19-2001, 05:05 AM
Why do I have a sick mind if I find that scary? It's terrifying to imagine myself in that situation, and I feel sad for the people it happened to.
Some things I've seen are the saddest of my life...people may not know how to express themselves, and their only way is through anger. I am no longer one of those people, but I understand those who are.

Morticia
09-19-2001, 04:28 PM
Asorie: The Dome of the Rock sits on what major <i>Jewish</i> religious site? Temple Mount. In what major <i>Jeudeo-Christian</i> religious city? Jerusalem.

I don't think it's too terribly horrid to evict Muslims from a site that belongs to a religion <i>several thousand</i> years older than their own. But that's just me. As for burning down my church; Orthodoxy has survived since 33 AD. You could burn down every Orthodox church in America with all the congregants in them and, while mourning the loss of the members of the Body, the Church would go on. That's the VAST difference between Christianity and Islam. You could destroy the Vatican and Roman Catholics would go on. <i>Fundamentalist</i> Muslims are almost codependent on Mecca, the Dome of the Rock, and their other sites as proof of Allah's/Mohammed's glory and favor and power. Now; if the infidel (non-Muslim) takes over those sites, the infidel has a BIG bargining chip. The infidel can name his price or destroy the site. Hey; the Talibied had <i>NO</i> issue with destroying statues that were <i>several thousand</i> years old.

That's just me, though. I'm mean. I've no qualms admitting that.

As for what to do about the Talibied...here's how we get in and here's how we shut down that little organization.

1. Disguise our soldiers as elderly women and hide weapons beneath their veils, robes, dresses, and such.

2. Get our soldiers out in the market in Kabul.

3. Have bomb threats called in to one or two of the Big Important Government (re: Talibied) buildings in the city.

4. It's pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel.

5. Repeat.

Getting bin Lauden will be a little harder. I'll leave that to the Deltas. But after we get him; I say we tie him to the rear bumper of a car and drive it ALL OVER the US so people can show how much they think of him. Then; we put him on international television; humiliate and desecrate his body; THEN we kill him...slowly. Over the course of about two or three weeks. I've already got several ideas on this one.

Again; I'm mean. I'm mean and I have an IQ of around 170 something. I'm mean and creative. Usually I'm a peaceful "let's all just get along and agree to disagree" kind of person. Not in this though. I've no qualms admitting I want to see those responsible (re: Talibied, bin Lauden, and his organization) broken in mind, body, and spirit.

Again; I'm mean.

Phoenix

Nino Brown
09-19-2001, 08:09 PM
I haven't read this entire thread yet..... (It's quite long and I am only able to get online and actually do something productive in my Computer Science class.) But yesterday at my friends house his dad was reading stuff online and said that they had found evidence of another wave of violence to take place on September 22nd. Has anyone else heard anything of this????

Kalen
09-19-2001, 08:43 PM
Phoenix, May I ask why you have this image<br> http://www.eyesonff.com/temp/britt/justice2.jpg<br>
In your sig?

Nino, I haven't heard about that...

Nino Brown
09-19-2001, 08:47 PM
Hmm.... I didn't really get all the information about it. I just heard that and it really stuck in my head. We'll give it awhile and see if anyone has heard it and can give me (us) all the information on the second attack.

Asorie
09-19-2001, 09:39 PM
The example of burning down churches that I gave was meant to show you how <i>wrong</i> it is to desecrate the religious sites and artifacts of a religion because it's not your own, or, even more <b>ignorantly</b>, because a person who is of that religion did something wrong. You had better stop spreading the blame from the few who actually committed the crime to all who hold similar religious beliefs. I mean it. This is your warning.

Cyan Highwind
09-19-2001, 10:01 PM
I don't mean to sound rude (I am an American in case you wondered) But alot of people in america are stupid they feel the by destroying Islam churches of temples or whatever there called they can have revenge or justice but all their doing is hurting the innocent and being aas evil as the enemy. ANYWAY... Osama Bin Laden is Toast all of our allies and the U.S. will bomb the shisnit out of him even if we don't succead the people of his country wll kick him out or kill him (like in sirbea) AND DON'T TELL ME I KNOW MY GRAMMAR IS HORRIBLE!!!!!

CloudDragon
09-19-2001, 10:05 PM
I agree with Phoneix. Bin Laden, when caught, should be tortured and then killed. Also any accomplices invovled but more him. The people that did this crime should pay. Just killing them is too easy. Make them suffer.

Cyan Highwind
09-19-2001, 10:09 PM
I agree Bin Laden Should pay for his crimes with more than his life. :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: If it were me I'd hang him slowly in front of the White house.

Morticia
09-19-2001, 10:44 PM
Asorie: duly noted.

I am sorry for ever saying anything on this rather emotionally charged issue. You may delete whatever posts of mine you want.

Phoenix

Asorie
09-20-2001, 12:03 AM
That's okay :) And I don't want to delete your posts, and I'd like you to keep posting-just keep that in mind. It was a warning, nothing more.

Had anyone else heard anything about the possible connections this event had with Iraq? I heard rumors, but not much else.

CloudDragon
09-20-2001, 12:13 AM
I've also just heard rumors but not anything more than that.

Dr. Disco
09-20-2001, 03:58 AM
Call me a pacifist(which I am), but I don't believe anyone EVER deserves torture. Although, there's one thing I would like:

Hundreds of thousands of Muslims should trek to wherever bin Laden would be being held, and many Muslim priests(Sorry if they're not called that, I know not of the religion) explain to him that what he has done is hideously wrong, and that his 'jihad' was a disgrace to the Islamic religion.

Also, I'm happy to say that I donated $10(I had about $18 total) to the Red Cross today. Not that I'm bragging or anything.:D

Marak
09-20-2001, 04:42 AM
Well, it looks like the military action that about 80% of Polled Americans are in favor of (Don't throw things at me, I read it in the newspaper) is going to happen, and soon at that.
There's 3 groupings of warships in the gulf (not including the ships that Britain has volunteered to the cause), and just today the US sent about 100 attack planes - F15s and F16s and Bsomething bombers - do an "undisclosed location" (read: Saudi Arabia). It's coming, whether you like it or not.
Operation Infinite Justice has begun. The American Behemoth stirs. Woe betide the countries that stand in it's way!
On a more practical note, keep in mind that a lot of this building up of forces stems from an unspoken demand by the American public to see some of this promised (by Bush) retaliation take shape. He feels that if he continues to do nothing, people will start to say "he's all talk and no action" and he'll lose a lot of the momentum that he has right now.

Morticia
09-21-2001, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Marak
Well, it looks like the military action that about 80% of Polled Americans are in favor of (Don't throw things at me, I read it in the newspaper)

<font size=-1>You know...just because you have an opinion that some don't, in the free world; you can express it without fear of reprisial. You have the First Amendment.

And on this; war is inevitable; but I predict it ripping the world in half. Those who say this war is justice will support the troops. Those who say this war is revenge will spit on everyone who supports the war. It's going to be the Vietnam of the 21st century.

Protests are already on by the pacifists at my college. I used to be a pacifist; but I do believe in enforcing the law; even international law.

*sighs* What will they say about us in a millienium?

Phoenix

Marak
09-21-2001, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Morticia


<font size=-1>You know...just because you have an opinion that some don't, in the free world; you can express it without fear of reprisial. You have the First Amendment.

Phoenix

I only said that because it seems that whenever you say something pro-war in this thread, someone jumps on you.

Endless
09-21-2001, 01:04 AM
Depends on personnality, as well as how people react to the events, and their background.




Originally posted by Morticia

*sighs* What will they say about us in a millienium?


What we say about Middle-Age. Mankind is a lost case.

Remember me to find you this text by P. Valéry : "Mourir pour des idées".

Cyan Highwind
09-21-2001, 01:05 AM
TO ALL: Freedom ISN'T Free. It the Blood and sweat of milllons to make the world what it is today. Bin Laden has reversed our efforts for a peaceful world.
(which is impossble in my opinoin because someone's heart will always be filled with greed) What will they say about us? what their saying about the WW2 Generation.

-N-
09-21-2001, 02:49 AM
Cyan: Orwell's pithy maxim "Freedom is Slavery" comes to mind, does it not?

Master Vivi: I <b>vaguely</b> remember touching upon that text in AP French. I should try to muster my way through that book to prepare for <i>les lectures</i> on the test...


I only said that because it seems that whenever you say something pro-war in this thread, someone jumps on you.

*jumps on you* :D

Well, it's just that when you say that, others feel a need to defend their position by attacking yours. That's why I'm starting to get sick of this debating nonsense. I even dropped my Speech and Debate class this year. I'd probably end up doing that too, but I'll just state my view tersely.

Rebuild first. Take care of the terrorists diplomatically if possible. If not, then military action is all that's left. But, at least don't harm the innocents. That's all. That's not too much to ask, is it?

Meteor of War
09-21-2001, 03:47 AM
im probably going to be extradited and flamed for this, but here goes
i feel very little sympathy for the amercians right now, sure it is a tragedy but there have been so many and so much worse tragedys around the world
the media says that this is the worst act of terrorism in the world, how quickly do we forget about the past, i seem to recall a nation killing 200 000 innocent civillians in world war 2, which is the worst tragedy in the world to this date

Cyan Highwind
09-21-2001, 03:49 AM
Not that I'm yelloing but 6 millon innocent jews were slaughtered in World War 2 not to metion Veitnam (150,000 Us soilders) and Prez Bush just said this was an act of war and said we will bring justice to or enmeys and he Said: there are two groups now those that are with us and those that are againist us! (CHINA? CUBA?)

Dr. Disco
09-21-2001, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by Meteor of War
im probably going to be extradited and flamed for this, but here goes
i feel very little sympathy for the amercians right now, sure it is a tragedy but there have been so many and so much worse tragedys around the world
the media says that this is the worst act of terrorism in the world, how quickly do we forget about the past, i seem to recall a nation killing 200 000 innocent civillians in world war 2, which is the worst tragedy in the world to this date

Umm, I think that's a misquote:This is the worse act of terrorism on US soil, not the world.

Also, Cuba is with us. China...hmm....

Morticia
09-21-2001, 07:06 AM
China is one of the Big Five on the UN Security Council (one of the five permanent members); they support us.

Cuba has expressed sympathy for the US.

Yeah; I have noticed a strong anti-war sentiment here. Some don't realize that you can't reason with bin Lauden. If the entire Islamic world went to him and told him that he was wrong and that Allah did not sanction his actions nor his "Jyhad," he would label them as apostates and rally his group in closer. Afghanistan is under control of the Talabied; a group of extreme fundamentalist warlords who came to power in 1996. This group is so extreme that they stone women who do not wear the veils over their faces. Women are mere property. Only those who are members of the Talabied regime have food, shelter, and water that is clean. The people of Afghanistan have neither the strength (weapons or physical) to overthrow this regime. The Talabied isn't going to hand over bin Lauden; he's got them under his thumb. If we go in to get him; they go to war against us.

So; what do we do? Shrug off the attacks upon us and go on?

You can't reason with a fanatic. You will only waste your breath and time.

Aside from that; this war is going to be fought on a very psychological front. We're not just fighting an army or trying to capture a city; we're fighting an idea; a belief. Only time or total demoralization of the idea will bring victory.

A lot of people can't see that. They can't process just how deep this goes. *shrugs*

Basically; if you think you're going to say something that will offend someone who has the authority to ban you; keep your thoughts to yourself. Don't put it on the fora.

Phoenix

Mad-psycho
09-21-2001, 11:24 PM
One thing to say: Don't piss off Pakistan or any country with nukes.

Cyan Highwind
09-21-2001, 11:42 PM
Prez Bush said this was a war agianist all terrorists (AKA Sadam Hassem or what I like to call him So Damn Insane)pakenstan does NOT have nuclear capiblities why else who they use planes and not just bomb the Shisnit out of us however So damn insane does have nuclear capiablity so does south veitnam, Iraq, iran, china, cuba, ect ect (anyone who's not an ally) besides the Us and Russia have their finger on the Trigger of 40000 Cold war nucs all over the world and a the first sign of war forgive my bluntness:BOOM!he he he
(blow them back to the stone age baby)

CloudOverHeaven
09-22-2001, 01:17 AM
well their nukes really arent a threat to us... they know they'd only dent us then pay big time by us sinking their whole damm country

Britt
09-22-2001, 01:22 AM
<i>they know they'd only dent us then pay big time by us sinking their whole damm country</i>

I'm sorry, but that's the most naive thing I've heard in a very, very long time. If someone shot a nuke, we'd shoot nukes back. Eventually both countries would be craters. A nuclear weapon does not "just make a dent," on any terms. I don't suppose I have to remind anyone about <a href="http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=nuclear%20winter">nuclear winter</a>, either.

Cyan Highwind
09-22-2001, 01:44 AM
NUCLEAR WINTER: The thing that frightens me most
Nuclear weapons are the most powerful weapons in the universe and yet humans weild them like a kid who found his dad's gun.

Jojee
09-22-2001, 02:27 AM
<Font color="pink">Heh, nuclear winter ^.~ There was a really interesting quote from Einstein somewhere or other... it went something like, ""I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought with, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Very true, I think ^.^ Einstein has a lotta good quotes. *off topic*

Dr. Disco
09-22-2001, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by Cyan Highwind
NUCLEAR WINTER: The thing that frightens me most
Nuclear weapons are the most powerful weapons in the universe and yet humans weild them like a kid who found his dad's gun.

ACTUALLY, if I'm thinking correctly, the only time nuclear weapons have been used in a war was Hiroshima. Then, after seeing the power, everyone pretty much thought "Holy shit. Let's not do that ever, ever again."

Meteor of War
09-22-2001, 03:48 AM
Umm, I think that's a misquote:This is the worse act of terrorism on US soil, not the world.

thats what they called it on cnn

Linus
09-22-2001, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by Morticia
I don't think it's too terribly horrid to evict Muslims from a site that belongs to a religion <i>several thousand</i> years older than their own.

The Mosque of Omar was built in the late 600s by, you guessed it, Omar, one of the Orthodox caliphs of the Muslim Empire. That's barely 2,000 years, so it couldn't be several thousand years younger. Actually, let me look up the time period of Solomon, who had the Temple built...

Edit: Solomon's Temple: C.960 BC.
Mosque of Omar: C.690 AD.
1500 year difference.

Yes, I know, that was pointless, but I'm a history fanatic.

-N-
09-22-2001, 08:03 AM
I never thought I'd be saying this, but President Bush may have delivered one of the finer speeches in American History. I dare not say the finest (I reserve that for Jonathan Edwards's "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" :D :D) but, a very nice job done by Mr. Bush.

*successfully inserts something GOOD in this thread*

Cyan Highwind
09-22-2001, 08:31 PM
I agree with you prince of darkness it was somewhere in between "This day of infimy December 7 1945" and "define sexaul relations"

Stone
09-22-2001, 09:27 PM
Neel, that trully was one of the better speechs I've ever heard as well. I especially like the part that I used in my sig:

"It is my hope that in the months and years ahead, life will return almost to normal. We'll go back to our lives and routines, and that is good. Even grief recedes with time and grace. But our resolve must not pass. Each of us will remember what happened that day, and to whom it happened. We'll remember the moment the news came -- where we were and what we were doing. Some will remember an image of a fire, or a story of rescue. Some will carry memories of a face and a voice gone forever." George W. Bush

After that he shows a policemen's badge that was found and he said that, that will always be his reminder of all the lives lost and those lost trying to save others.

Marak
09-22-2001, 10:51 PM
I think the thing that really got me thinking while watching Bush's speech was that you could actually see the "quiet, unyielding anger" in his face. Bush, the person - not Bush the president or Bush the politician - was pissed off. He's not gonna let Bin Laden go. And I respect him for that. The speech was good, very good, very inspiring.
I think what I like best about how Bush has acted throught this whole ordeal: he has always remained human. We've seen him with red, wet eyes in the White House. We've seen the anger in his latest speech (and others). To me, that maked him more real, more accesable. To me, he is a person first and a president later, unlike certain other Prez's of late (Clinton *cough* Clinton). And I respect that. Good job Bush, I'm glad I voted for ya!

Asorie
09-23-2001, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Morticia
A lot of people can't see that. They can't process just how deep this goes. *shrugs*

Basically; if you think you're going to say something that will offend someone who has the authority to ban you; keep your thoughts to yourself. Don't put it on the fora.

Phoenix

You miss the point, Phoenix. The <i>idea</i> that needs to be destroyed is not fundamental Islam. It's terrorism. I think that there needs to be a distinction made, and in most cases, there is not being.

Also, no, I don't support a war. That doesn't mean that I don't understand how deep this goes. It doesn't mean that I can't comprehend the horror or the affects it has on the world. It means I've thought things through and I still happen to have a different opinion than yours.

I'm sick and tired of being talked down to by people who want war simply because I don't support it. I'm tired of being told that pacifism is immature. You know what? You go kill people. Fine. But the weight of that will rest on your shoulders, and never mine. Because I don't agree with it, and if we aren't defending my right to not support a war, what are we fighting to defend, if freedom itself is so threatened?

And incidentally, Phoenix, no one ever threatened to ban you. Any other member on the board would have gotten the same warning for posting the statements you did. So let it rest, okay? I am.

S1lk
09-23-2001, 05:13 AM
I know theres been a lot of talk about "war".. but I think it'd be helpful if everyone read this "Is War Really the Right Word?" (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,175059,00.html), to try and put things in perspective.

BatChao
09-23-2001, 06:19 AM
Sorry if this question has already been asked/answered, but I haven't read all the posts here cuz there are like a billion of them... anyway, at first, I didn't think we were gonna go into war, but now I'm a bit more scared cuz my friend told me the US was mobilizing troops and stuff. Anyway, I'm not really up to date on the news cuz I don't watch that much of it... but who know how close we really are to a war? And if so, how big will it be? Will people be drafted and stuff? I'm just wondering cuz I'm really don't wanna go into a war and stuff. Me scared. Also, I was wondering if your religion prohibits you from killing, do you need to go to war if drafted?

Cyan Highwind
09-23-2001, 06:23 AM
to batchao: if youre dafted you goto war or you goto jail

jly2klee
09-23-2001, 08:05 AM
Sorry for maybe going a little off topic but i have to say something on behlaf of Canada....


Here in Canada we feel your sorrow and this is a tough time for all of us. We giuded you and helped when in need and right now we are giving blood. Sometimes people think Canada and U.S.A are worst enemies.... But in the real world we are best friends AND WE WILL HELP U.S.A THROUGH THICK AND THIN AND YOU SUPPORT US SO WE SUPPORT YOU. AND TOGETHER WE WILL WIN THE WAR AGAINST TERRORISM!! That is all:choc: :)

BatChao
09-23-2001, 11:26 AM
That's quite nice of you, jly2klee. I feel the love. I didn't know people thought USA and Canada where worst enemies...

Oh yea, and my friend told me that if you're the only son, your parents can waiver a draft into a war. Does anyone know if that's true?

Cyan Highwind
09-23-2001, 04:27 PM
As far as I know theres no waiver but, all my info comes from my dad and grandpa (grandpa veitnam, korea, dad, desert storm) I like canadans I've be to toronto and they seemed like very nice people, however I HATE the metric system why: because i'm an idoit

Xeno
09-23-2001, 09:40 PM
OK.
To all of you who want to nuke/bomb a country/state: Sorry? That will accomplish? Well, I guess if it makes you happy to see a big boom, then sure. Just wipe out thousands. It's not like it's a big deal right? [Sarcasm intended]

To all of you who want to see Bin Laden dead:
1. WE DON'T KNOW WHO DID THE WTC.
2. I see. Capital punishment. Brilliant idea. Let's make everyone happy by killing someone who killed 500+ people (Kenya) Too bad it won't bring the dead back. Too bad it will just make him some sort of religous prophet who fought. Too bad it won't really stop terrorism. Too bad eh?

To all of you who want to see Bin Laden tortured: You know, I'm just going to ignore that. I really don't think, this supposedly "civilised" society is even capable of anything resembling torture...oh wait; we aren't "civilised".

No offense, but I would just like to see the guy rot in jail with NO outside communication. I know it would be almost impossible to know where he is let alone catch him, but that is what I would like and I think the people who died would have.

Could I just add: Terrorism will not end.

Cyan Highwind
09-23-2001, 10:04 PM
Good Point. The world is pissed and we have to blame somebody so we point the finger at the one who comitted the last terorist action (AKA UN embassy bombing in africa).And you right in a civilised society there should be no toture but we aren't civilized why else would we have racial prejudice, war, famine, ect., ect.

CloudOverHeaven
09-23-2001, 10:50 PM
"You think something minor like the End Of The World will finish me off?"

Amazing Telephone
09-23-2001, 11:59 PM
I think FDR's Pearl Harbor address was much much better, like I said.

"December 7th, 1941: A date which will live in infamy". Just sounds so powerful!

He wrote it himself too.

Asorie
09-24-2001, 04:36 AM
Okay :) This thread is splitting off into a million directions and getting too long anyway, so I'm going to start a couple of new ones.