Seifer-Just a plot advancing device?

[Kain_Highwind]

Anybody else sorely disappointed with Seifer as a character? Personally, I think the game could have been much more interesting if they had gone deeper into stuff like:
1. Seifer's relationship with Rinoa
2. His rivalry with Squall
3. His multiple motivations for becoming the sorceress' knight
It seems to me that these ideas are introduced in Disc 1 and then pretty much forgotten about for the rest of the game. For the duration of disc 1, they make Seifer out to be an interesting and wildly complex character with all these conflicting ideas, emotions, and dreams. I felt for the guy when he never made it as a SeeD. I felt for him when Squall stole his woman. I felt for him when Edea used all this frustration to manipulate him. And I thought one of the greatest parts of the game was when all this erupted into Squall and Seifer's mano-a-mano battle atop the sorceress' float, which instantly reminded me of the duel in the opening cutscene. But after disc 1 ends, Seifer's character seems to get blotted out by all the other stuff. He becomes a plot device, a tool simply used to find the Lunatic Pandora, hand Rinoa over to Adel, and fight the party a couple of times. Seifer was one of the key characters to FF8, and the game lost a good bit of its appeal for me when he ceased to matter. Just curious about what everybody else thinks.

[Twilight Edge]

He's a badass with cool moves and great friends,and that's good enough.

[chaos_ghost]

Seifer is my fav charecter because unlike other FF villians, they didn't go so deep into his angst ridden past. He was a badass. Plain and simple.

[Zeromus_X]

Meh, he's alright. I don't really think he's really a plot device (we didn't make the story, things like that can't ever be obvious enough), but who knows. I got a surreal ending, I can't complain.

[Arrianna]

I think his background was more effective for being subtile. Since he's not the focus of the game they handled it just fine. :D

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

I always thought he was a nice enough character he playes is part great a puppet controlled by the sorceress who leaves in pursuit of a dream that´s good enough for me.Plus i like fighting him although is pretty easy to defeat.

[rubah]

We know as much about the characters as squall does, and frankly, I don't think squall cares anymore about seifer than to find out what he does know :p

I think Square was originally intending to bring out the love story more, which is why seifer is on all the promotional images, but they were pressed for time or whatever.

[Kain_Highwind]

I think Square was originally intending to bring out the love story more, which is why seifer is on all the promotional images, but they were pressed for time or whatever.

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I could never understand why Square would make him out to be one of the central characters, develop him early in the game, and then leave him alone. But the mushy Squall/Rinoa stuff trumps Seifer, I suppose.

[MJN SEIFER]

if they had gone deeper into stuff like:
1. Seifer's relationship with Rinoa
2. His rivalry with Squall
3. His multiple motivations for becoming the sorceress' knight


They did!

[Kain_Highwind]

They did!

I know they did. But barely. They mention the stuff a couple times and then:

1. Rinoa complains about Seifer being possibly dead and then practically forgets who he was.
2. Squall completely loses his drive to overcome Seifer.
3. Seifer just kind of gets brainwashed and all of his previous motivations no longer apply.

All I'm saying is I expected a little more.

[boys from the dwarf]

square did as good a job as they needed to do on seifer. considering he wasnt massively important they did just fine.

[Bart's Friend Milhouse]

I thought Seifer was an alright character and fitted well into the story. No can't see much problem with his being there

[Darkwing Bahamut]

Seifer serves as Squall's rival, and someone who dreams of being the sorceress' knight. He went through some character developments and achieved his goal, that's good enough. I wouldn't call him the "plot advancing device", Rinoa fits that role more.

[G SpOtZ]

Actually, I agree with you, Kain_Highwind. I would have been a bit more please by improving the three points that you stated, however, I still enjoyed the game a lot, and it's one of my favorites.

If the story had included more detail and background/story on Seifer, it would have made the game a bit more enjoyable, and I think the overall mood would carry more inspiration and energy.

[f f freak]

1. Rinoa complains about Seifer being possibly dead and then practically forgets who he was

I totally agree with you here.

[MJN SEIFER]

They did!

I know they did. But barely. They mention the stuff a couple times and then:

1. Rinoa complains about Seifer being possibly dead and then practically forgets who he was.
2. Squall completely loses his drive to overcome Seifer.
3. Seifer just kind of gets brainwashed and all of his previous motivations no longer apply.

All I'm saying is I expected a little more.

I think you need to pay attention to the game a bit more.


1. She doesn't she mentions him frequently throughout the game, it is her element.

2. That's because of the devolopment of Squall's character - He has bigger things on his mind, than some petty fued, It also shows the difference between him and Seifer - Squall has got better but Seifer has not.

3. That's kinda the point, he's gone so far into Ultimecia's plans that he has lost the plot and needs to be brought back to normallity, that's what the whole thing with his "Pose" was for.

[f f freak]

1. She doesn't she mentions him frequently throughout the game, it is her element.

Really she doesn't she only mentions him once or twice then forgets about him.


2. That's because of the devolopment of Squall's character - He has bigger things on his mind, than some petty fued, It also shows the difference between him and Seifer - Squall has got better but Seifer has not.

Yet Squall has three people against one in 3 of the 4 Seifer battles. I don't think Squall has got that much better. And Squall's development let's go over that shall we. From:........Whatever. To: OMG the love of my life is in a coma. Squall to the rescue. But no one shall help me because I don't want to lose my reputation as a loner. Finally: The people who have surrounded me for years couldn't get me to open up but some girl I've known for maybe 10 minutes can. I'm no longer EMO YAY!!!!!!.

[licence]

I like Seifer as he is. He didn't need more backstory or such. He was just Seifer. I also think it would have been better in the game if Squall had to face him alone in every encounter they have. It would make them seem a lot more like rivals instead of Squall not facing him one on one.

[PerpetualBurn]

Considering how deep people like to read into the Final Fantasy worlds, it's impossible for them to explore every character with the kind of depth that would satisfy the hardcore fans and still have a smoothly flowing plot.

On reflection, it annoys me how much I wanted to know about the relationship between Rinoa and Seifer, and their current feelings for each other. It did seem like Rinoa was in love with Seifer, but that part of the story was never explored. It had echoes of Zack and Aeris. I always wanted to know more about those two.

Really, I'm pretty satisfied with the plot of FF8 and I'm not the type that likes to have too much revealed. I like a bit of mystery. Still, a little more development of Seifer's past relations with Rinoa would've been nice, even if it were only a little sidepart like the Zack and Cloud trip to Midgar in FF7 (when you return to Shinra mansion).

[Kain_Highwind]

I also think it would have been better in the game if Squall had to face him alone in every encounter they have. It would make them seem a lot more like rivals instead of Squall not facing him one on one.

That's exactly what I was thinking of. I should have mentioned it before. It kind of ruins the fight when it's three-on-one, and ruins the sense of rivalry. It would be a lot more epic and intense if only Squall faced Seifer all three times, and if Seifer was much more difficult to beat, especially the third time.

I think everybody's treating Seifer like a minor character, and maybe he was. Maybe the only real major characters were Squall and Rinoa. The only thing I'm trying to say is that I think it would have added a hell of a lot more to the game if Square had focused more on the tension between all three of them, rather than concentrating almost exclusively on the love story. It made everything seem hunky-dory and by the end I didn't feel like there was a major conflict going on, even with the fact that there was a sadistic sorceress from the future trying to compress all of time. But this is all opinion; I'm not saying Square was wrong or anything. They did exactly what they intended, and that's awesome.

[licence]

That's exactly what I was thinking of. I should have mentioned it before. It kind of ruins the fight when it's three-on-one, and ruins the sense of rivalry. It would be a lot more epic and intense if only Squall faced Seifer all three times, and if Seifer was much more difficult to beat, especially the third time.



You fight him 4 times and yeah, could you imagine your first time through the game, still getting to grips with junctioning and not really at the strongest you could be with not a lot of great magic. How good would the final fight against Seifer be. I mean the first battle against him is brilliant.

Just out of wondering, I noticed your username is Kain from FFIV, so do you like Seifer seeing as he has a lot of similarities to Kain?

[Moon Rabbits]

They did!

I know they did. But barely. They mention the stuff a couple times and then:

1. Rinoa complains about Seifer being possibly dead and then practically forgets who he was.
2. Squall completely loses his drive to overcome Seifer.
3. Seifer just kind of gets brainwashed and all of his previous motivations no longer apply.

All I'm saying is I expected a little more.

1. That's Rinoa for you! She became so quickly infatuated with Squall she forgot about Seifer, just as quickly I might add.

2. Character development :) Squall begins to notice there is more at stake than just proving to Seifer that he's better than him.

3. No. His previous motivations still do apply. His motivation from the beginning of the game is to become a Sorceress' Knight (see the Dollet scene, "One day I'll tell you about my romantic dream!"). He becomes a Knight and does Ultimecia's bidding, that's what a Knight does. How is this losing his previous motivations? Besides, in the final fight with Seifer, when his clothes are all tattered and his stance broken down, it's really very parallel to Seifer's mental state at that time also, broken down and tattered.



Yet Squall has three people against one in 3 of the 4 Seifer battles.

That's pretty much just a gameplay aspect, the 3 person parties and all.

As for Squall's development, it's a LITTLE deeper than that.


Anyways, Tetsuya Nomura originally wanted to have a love triangle between Squall, Rinoa, and Seifer. There was for a short time in the game, but I think it would've turned out worse if they kept the triangle...it doesn't really /fit/ with the events in the game.

Oops, long post! Gimme some slack, I just came from an R=U thread.

[MJN SEIFER]

Really she doesn't she only mentions him once or twice then forgets about him.



Really she does. She talks about threw out the game. It's very deaply related to her. Take her "How far is everyone" speach. Also put Rinoa in the party for the final battle with Seifer, It shows more than words ever need to it's very emotional. :(


Yet Squall has three people against one in 3 of the 4 Seifer battles. I don't think Squall has got that much better. And Squall's development let's go over that shall we. From:........Whatever. To: OMG the love of my life is in a coma. Squall to the rescue. But no one shall help me because I don't want to lose my reputation as a loner. Finally: The people who have surrounded me for years couldn't get me to open up but some girl I've known for maybe 10 minutes can. I'm no longer EMO YAY!!!!!!.


NOW THAT IS NOT COLD FOR!!!

First of he hasn't known her for ten minuites he's known her for most of his life (RE R = E and if you don't believe that, then still the game is set over days and days, can you really expect even in a fantasy game that joining a force, almost dying, being arestead, escaping, saving you home and god knows what esle all the way up to fighting an Ancient/Soceress is in the space of TEN MINUITES!? COME ON MATE!?) Further more the change is very deap. Even early in the scene where Rinoa is Extracted by the Igniouns we can see that Squall/Rinoa is the match of the story, And the reason why she get's him to open up is because she's the one.

Wether you intended to or not you have really hurt me, as I strongly identify with Squall's story as I went threw a similar change. And that is all due to one person. So just STOP JUDGING ME!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Kain_Highwind]

Heh. I'm sorry I brought the whole "1, 2, 3" thing into this. Because everyone seems to be basing their comments on that structure. Here goes.

My mistake, Licence. All I remember was the battle on the float, the one in Galbadia Garden, and the one in the Lunatic Pandora. Of course, I haven't played through in awhile, so I'm probably wrong.


Just out of wondering, I noticed your username is Kain from FFIV, so do you like Seifer seeing as he has a lot of similarities to Kain?

Now that you bring it up, I'm noticing for the first time that they're not just similar, Seifer's patterned almost identically after Kain (except Kain doesn't have a temper shorter than a two-year-old with a growth defect). They're both the "other guy who doesn't get any" in some kind of love triangle, they're both rivals of the main characters of their respective games, and they both betray the party at some point. I don't know, Kain was definitely my favorite character from FF4, but Seifer wasn't my fave in FF8, Squall was (go figure). But I guess I like them both because they're both much, much deeper than meets the eye. They have so many reasons for their actions: rivalry, love, a desire to prove themselves, a desire for strength, and so on. They're as human as human can be. They don't always make the right decisions. Hell, they rarely make the right decisions. But they do what they feel they must. And they work hard for that. They are much more complicated and difficult for the player to understand than your usual Final Fantasy hero (Cecil, Squall, Tidus, etc.), and that's probably why I like them both.


2. Character development Squall begins to notice there is more at stake than just proving to Seifer that he's better than him.

3. No. His previous motivations still do apply. His motivation from the beginning of the game is to become a Sorceress' Knight (see the Dollet scene, "One day I'll tell you about my romantic dream!"). He becomes a Knight and does Ultimecia's bidding, that's what a Knight does. How is this losing his previous motivations? Besides, in the final fight with Seifer, when his clothes are all tattered and his stance broken down, it's really very parallel to Seifer's mental state at that time also, broken down and tattered.


I know this is getting long, but bear with me. While it is true that Squall realizes there is more at stake, I find it difficult to believe that a rivalry as intense as the opening fmv suggests just fades into nonexistence and that Squall just ceases to care about the guy who gave him that fairly noticeable scar on his forehead. And the guy who originally had the love of his life. As for Seifer's motivations, I like to believe that he originally joins Edea (Ulti) for much more complex reasons. Yes, he wants to become the sorceress' knight, but I also think that his feelings toward Squall, Rinoa, Balamb Garden, and SeeD very much apply. I like to think that the most major part of his change is revenge. That he is almost completely driven by frustration, anger, envy, and the desire to prove himself to Rinoa, and that he wants to pay all of the previously mentioned people/organizations (except Rinoa) back for his humiliation. This, however, is another matter of opinion.

Once again, haven't played in awhile; don't recall the tattered clothes thing. I also didn't have Rinoa in my party when I faced Seifer, so I don't really know about that conversation. And I'm going to stay out of the whole Squall/Rinoa thing right now, since it wasn't originally my intent to go too deeply into that and I'll clearly make a lot of enemies if I do. All I'll say is that I think f f freak was kidding about the 10 minutes thing, it was more like about 10 in-game hours (Uh-oh, there's that sarcasm again! Shame on me)

Sorry about the ridiculously long response that most of you (if not all) won't read. And sorry if I sound patronizing or anything, I don't mean to.

[f f freak]

COME ON MATE
Don't call me mate.

So just STOP JUDGING ME!!!
My post had nothing to do with you so don't act like it did

R = E and if you don't believe that, then still the game is set over days and days, can you really expect even in a fantasy game that joining a force, almost dying, being arestead, escaping, saving you home and god knows what esle all the way up to fighting an Ancient/Soceress is in the space of TEN MINUITES!
Okay first. R=E what the hell!?
secondly. You know what I meant when I said ten minutes.

[MJN SEIFER]

Read FEs posts for more.

[*~Angel Wing~*]

I like Seifer as he is. He didn't need more backstory or such. He was just Seifer. I also think it would have been better in the game if Squall had to face him alone in every encounter they have. It would make them seem a lot more like rivals instead of Squall not facing him one on one.
I agree with everything licence said. :up:

I think all of the characters recieved an equal background story. [A million times better than FFVII's characters :rolleyes2]
And I think Squall should have faced Seifer alone everytime too.

Except I think it would have been interesting if we got to see Seifer's past with Rinoa a little more. :D

[licence]

Except I think it would have been interesting if we got to see Seifer's past with Rinoa a little more. :D

Hmmm, I agree to a certain extent. But I think if they showed a clearer relationship between Rinoa and Seifer, it could've detracted (think that's the word I'm looking for) from the Squall/Rinoa relationship.