explanations. *serious spoilers. do not read uless you hae completed the game.*

[boys from the dwarf]

ive been replaying FF8 and have just watched the ending sequence and i think i understand most of the stuff but id like some confirmation.

1. when rinoa is ejected into space and her life support system is low. how does she survive? if i remember correctly something strange and impossible happens and she somehow gets more time. i think its something to do with fate and the FF8's time is set in stione theory but im not too sure. im quite sure the part in the ending sequence where its shows a breif scene of what should have been rinoas death had a lot to do with it.

2. im having a little bit of trouble understanding the ending sequence. i know it makes sense but square sure does make it nearly impossible to understand how it works.

when squall keeps on having visions of rinoa (including the one of her death.), what does this mean? once again i think i understand it but im not too sure.

ans how do they get back to the flower fields? i think rinoas sorcery is the explanation for the feather and how rinoa manages to save squall and how suddenly the clouds part and sun shines on the field.

have i answered my own questions? if not please tell me what ive missed out.

[McLovin']

They got back to the flow field because Time Compression settled and the 2 of em agreeed they would meet there member.

the ending is supposed to be Time recovering from the affects of Time Compression.

Rinoa did not die in space because Ulti didnt want her to die cas she was actually her ^_^

[boys from the dwarf]

i didnt say she died. i said she should have (not that i want her to die.) but thats still the part im unsure about that. and can we keep the R=U to a minimum. i love the theory but i dont want it clogging up this thread.

[McLovin']

It was only a joke.

And you kinda answered yourself when you asked how did she survive if she was low on fuel :p

Then Squall caught her and gave her some of his oxygen.

[Sir Bahamut]

I'm just going to copy and paste a chunk from the Time/Ultimecia FAQ at GameFAQs which explains the ending.

PRELIMINARY NOTE: The fact that TC reacts to thoughts/feelings/memories and can be influenced by willpower is based on what Laguna says in his speech about "Love, friendship and courage!!!" prior to entering the Lunatic Pandora. Now, from the FAQ:

[...] As time de-compresses [due to Ultimecia's defeat], the party are able to get back to their own time in the same way that they got to Ultimecias time; by concentrating on where they want to go, and believing in eachother. However, Squall is still not able to fully rely on his friends, so he is not able to make his way back. Instead, he ends up at the Orphanage in the past, meeting Edea and giving her the idea of SeeD and Garden. Ultimecia then arrives and gives Edea her powers. You might ask why she goes to exactly Edea and gives her her powers, instead of some other random sorceress. Considering that TC reacts to thoughts and emotions, an answer seems at hand. According to the Tutorial, Sorceresses are believed to want to avoid spreading their powers too thin, so Ultimecia would be wanting to find a sorceress so she can die in peace. But on the other hand, she also refused to yield to Squall. This means that the two strongest things on her mind after defeat would be a sorceress and Squall. It should then come as no surprise that TC sends her to Squall and a sorceress at the same time!

Squall then makes another attempt at getting back, but yet again fails, and gets stuck in some sort of timewarp; a mixture of various times, reacting to his own thoughts, emotions and memories (not surprising, since TC functions in the same way). As said above, he ends up alone in a barren wasteland because he is still stuck in his 'lone wolf' attitude. As he tries to simply walk his way out of this place, he realises eventually that he's not getting anywhere, and that he's stuck. Affected by these thoughts, the time warp now alters, and when Squall turns around, he finds that he is literally stuck on a tiny island in the middle of nowhere. Collapsing, he starts thinking about Rinoa, and yet again, the time-warp he's in reacts to that, but since his emotions are full of despair and hopelessness, what he sees is inevtiably tainted by just that. Because of this, he sees his memories all twisted, and even sees things which haven't happened(like Rinoas helmet shattering in space). Finally, he collapses from the strain. There is some dispute whether or not Squall dies here or not, but either way, what happens next is the same: Rinoa, through her love for Squall, is able to make her way to him and save him (remember that emotions were the key in this situation). As they embrace, they both break free from the time warp, and can proceed to the Garden, where a big party awaits.

It should be made clear now, that if we were to stay on after the end of the game, we'd eventually see Ultimecia be born, rise to power, and conquer the world. But before she'd be able to compress time, Squall and Co would arrive from the past and kick her ass. Ultimecias inevitable rise to power would be a necessary sacrifice for her defeat. One good thing is that if Odine is correct in his assertion that Rinoa was the only sorceress left after Adels defeat, then Ultimecia puts an end to the succession of witches forever. After all, she would be the only sorceress of her time, and she doesn't pass on her powers to someone in her own time, she passes them on to someone in the past. This means that after Ultimecias death, there would be no more sorceresses!

---

Hopefully that clears up some things. If some things about the ending still seem confusing, please ask in more detail.

VERY BRIEF SUMMARY: TC reacts to thoughts/feelings/memories, so because Squall is still a 'lone wolf' he ends up alone and sees only twisted images due to his feelings of despair influencing his memories. Finally though, Rinoa is able to use her love for Squall to find him and wake him up/ressurect him, and using their combined love, they can make it back to their own time.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

I have a question too...i can´t understand it...but here it goes:

How can Zell eat so many hot dogs in a short amount of seconds?

[Sir Bahamut]

He's had a lot of practice, if you know what I mean ;)

*cough*

>_>

[Qurange]

Personally, I think that Rinoa survived for two reasons. For one--as I recall--Squall managed to make her 'hear' him, though whether that was because of their bond, because of Ellone's power, or because of Rinoa's abilities, I don't recall. I think that, because of this, Rinoa's Sorceress powers sort of 'kicked in' subconsciously--as they tend to do in Angel Wing. The Sorceress power, especially that of powerful Sorceresses, can do just about anything, so conjuring some viable air until Squall could reach her is certainly within its bounds, even if she doesn't have the skill to do so intentionally.

As for Time Compression, I'm pretty much with Sir Bahamut--and I'd assert that if Squall was closer than most people could survive to death, the combination of Squall and Rinoa's bond and Rinoa's untapped powers could have revived him. Of course, I like to think that Ultimecia didn't destroy /all/ of the other Sorceresses in her time, but that one's just something I like, not something I have much basis for.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

The Succession of Witches continues with or after Rinoa. Ultimecia's defeat basically made sure that all this was 'Fated' and the Sorceress Power continues in a temporal loop of time.

[Ryushikaze]

She didn't activate the 5 minutes of spare air until Squall contacted her. She just passed out before that.

[jammi567]

Couldn't she have held her breath?

[boys from the dwarf]

i dont think you can survive in the vacuum of space for very long without air even if you do hold your breathe. im still pretty unsure on how she actually managed to survive in space though.

ryushikaze. do you mean there was still 5 minutes of air but she couldnt activate it until squall contacted her and woke her up?

[G SpOtZ]

Maybe it has something to do with FE's theory about them being in a different time (far into the future) while they're in space. Yes, Obel Lake flooded... gosh, that was such a random theory...

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

This just proove how Rinoa is dumb..it´s like this:

Squall:"Rinoa don´t die!"

Rinoa:"OMG i can´t breathe...h-e-l-p."

Squall:"Have you used the emergency button!?"

Rinoa:"*gasp*Ahhhh no...this thing?"

Squall:".............whatever...."

[Ryushikaze]

i dont think you can survive in the vacuum of space for very long without air even if you do hold your breathe. im still pretty unsure on how she actually managed to survive in space though.

ryushikaze. do you mean there was still 5 minutes of air but she couldnt activate it until squall contacted her and woke her up?

Yeah. She didn't know it was there. And it does mesh with her releasing the plate, pushing the button, and air rushing in.

And she wasn't in vacuum, she was in an excess of CO2.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I think it was actually Squall that died in space. That didn't look like Rinoa to me. This is one of the reasons I was like... WTF? And this is also why I hear different interpretations of what the ending meant...

[Sir Bahamut]

At first I thought "...the hell, of course that's Rinoa!", but upon looking at the pictures, I can see why you might find it hard to tell:

http://www.ffshrine.org/ff8/fmvshots-disc4/05-lost-in-time/00142.jpg

http://www.ffshrine.org/ff8/fmvshots-disc4/05-lost-in-time/00143.jpg

The lips look to feminine to be Squall though, although considering all the other weird stuff appearing in the ending, it may well be Squall. But I don't think it means anything at all really.

[boys from the dwarf]

freaky picture. pretty odd scene. why does it show rinoa dieing? i thought i understood why but now im not too sure. im certain thats rinoa. it may not look much like her but it looks a lot more like rinoa than it does squall.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

It´s her because of the Griver ring.Squall gave it to her before they entered Galbadia Garden and told her to stay with it.

[McLovin']

I don't remember that scene with Rinoa's mask breaking O_o

Would she not die if that happened?

[SeeDRankLou]

When Rinoa was floating in space, there was no hope for her. She was just there, alone. She was going to run out of air and die. Her vision was fading (remember she had trouble focusing on the rings on her necklace which were right infront of her face), so she couldn't really see any of the ships that were far off but still around her. She had emergency air, but why use? She would be able to breathe for five more minutes....and then still die. So why postpone? She gives up, seeing no hope for herself. But then, as Rinoa was taking her last few breathes of life, Ellone used her power on Squall, and Squall was able to reach Rinoa. And then she remembered how much she cared for Squall, and decided to do everything in her power to stay alive, which included pressing the red button on her suit to released the emergency air, so that she could breathe for five more minutes. And then she hoped for the best.

That stuff Sir Bahamut posted should suffice to answer your other question. And you are right about the feather. Remember the opening sequence, the pink flower pedal goes into Rinoa's hand and out comes a white feather, which then flies off as if pointed Rinoa in a certain direction. That's where the white feather the appears in the ending sequence comes from.



I don't remember that scene with Rinoa's mask breaking O_o

Would she not die if that happened?
It didn't really happen. It's one of the visions Squall has at the end.

[McLovin']

Oh wow. I just re watched the ending on youtube. I am confused. :(

What is with the blurs of Rinoa?

Also that picture with Rinoa 5 or 6 posts above; it makes sense that it is Rinoa but the lips make me think of Edea:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Gulf/2405/ff8_images/edea/edea.jpg

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://www.ffshrine.org/ff8/fmvshots-disc4/05-lost-in-time/00143.jpg

[jammi567]

Oh wow. I just re watched the ending on youtube. I am confused. :(
Before the time compression, Squall and Rinoa promice to go to the orpanage if they ever get seperated. But Squall is still stuck in loaner mode, so he gets seperated. He then walks around in a landscape that represents his thoughts and feelings for a while, until he gives up and comes to an edge. He then finds he's on an island, representing that he's even more alone. We then cut to Rinoa, where she looks at his ring he gave her, and remembers the promice they made earlier, so that sends a mental connection to him in the form of a feather, like at the beginning of the game. We then see these distorted images, which show him losing, i think, his trust for her. Or he's getting totally lost in his thoughts that he can't think straight. Rinoa's love and trust in him, however, takes her to him, because she loves and trusts him still.

So basically, it's showing that he still doesn't trust anyone, whilst she does.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Now I've seen more than one view point on what happened. I believe that it was actually Squall in the suit. Did someone say... "Edea"? Possibly...

I don't think the lips are 'too femimine'. The hair color and length isn't quite right to be Rinoa, or it could be.

The point is. The spawning of the R=U and other speculations is because of this ambiguous ending... I've been watching the ending on youtube too. Trying to remember what I had wrote earlier, and it's slowly coming back to me.

So far I've noticed that "Time-Decompression" leads you back to the "Louve in Dollet" where the failed assassination of Sorceress Edea occurred and finally the Balamb Garden Ballroom...

More later...

[Darkwing Bahamut]

I'm sure that was Rinoa in the spacesuit. An earlier FMV showed the same Griever ring, which Squall gave her, floating in front of Rinoa. And after the mask of the spacesuit shattered, Squall envisioned Rinoa dying and a tear ran down his face. This was followed by Squall passing out and Rinoa ending up rescuing him.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I'm sure that was Rinoa in the spacesuit. An earlier FMV showed the same Griever ring, which Squall gave her, floating in front of Rinoa. And after the mask of the spacesuit shattered, Squall envisioned Rinoa dying and a tear ran down his face. This was followed by Squall passing out and Rinoa ending up rescuing him.

Again... perspective...:eep:

..

[Ryushikaze]

...Perspective, like opinion, cannot be endlessly used as a defense. He has a valid point. This is the Griever ring- not to mention the OTHER ring on her chain- which only Rinoa has ever been known to wear on a chain.

Though given the linear and locked nature of time, why should we see Squall's visions as anything more than the crazed projections of a tired and weary mind?

[Darkwing Bahamut]

Excactly. Twas just a small part of Squall's envisions and nothing else. Not meant to be delved deeply into. And anyone would've thought that was Rinoa when they first looked at it without overanalysing it.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

...Perspective, like opinion, cannot be endlessly used as a defense. He has a valid point. This is the Griever ring- not to mention the OTHER ring on her chain- which only Rinoa has ever been known to wear on a chain.

Though given the linear and locked nature of time, why should we see Squall's visions as anything more than the crazed projections of a tired and weary mind?

Okay, then Why is is there a 'crazed projection' of a helmut shattering when it didn't happen in the first place? ... hmm? Is there a problem granny? (Sorry just reminded me of that old "Crash Bandicoot" commercial.)

Look, my point is not to "prove" anything, because, the ENDING is totally open to suspicion. My mission is to understand, WHY... FOR LOVE OF THE WIDOW... WHY does this upset you all so much? As I stated before, and as it's been illustrated, everyone, EVERYONE sees the ending (the spawning of the E=U Theory, amongst others, aka VIEWS, yes, VIEWS). Ugh... Y'know... I just don't understand it... I just... I just don't... There are NO... "FACTS".... ONLY... FANTASY...

I witnessed these same so called "facts" with the arguements of FFVII... And I just stood back and watch... And I didn't understand. There's no need to argue or say who's 'right' or 'wrong'... The ending itself is just.... For love of the widow... far from conclusively understandable.... and that is the source of all of these debates.... Why do people insist on this... Y'know what? Fuggit. I'll just concentrate on what I was doin'.... Talk amongst yourselves... I'll start a topic for you... Kefka or Sephiroth? Who was the more entertaining villain? I'm over klempt!

[Sir Bahamut]

You have to understand, PAK, that the entire premise for a rational debate is the fact that some opinions may be incorrect/flawed. If the premise for a debate is that there is no right and wrong and "it's all opinions people!!" then there would be absolutely no point in having a debate. It'd merely be people sharing their opinions with everyone else going "I disagree with you but respect your right to have a differing opinion :)", which doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Now that might be fine for you, but when you choose to participate in a rational debate you CANNOT whine when people argue against your opinions. Then you should rather go to a fan-fic board or something....

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

It´s the second time i said it but that was the ring Squall gave to Rinoa so it can only be Rinoa!

But that doesn´t mean she died...ohhhh no sir it only shows one of the possible alternative futures and what would happen if Squall didn´t safe Rinoa.

[Ryushikaze]

...Perspective, like opinion, cannot be endlessly used as a defense. He has a valid point. This is the Griever ring- not to mention the OTHER ring on her chain- which only Rinoa has ever been known to wear on a chain.

Though given the linear and locked nature of time, why should we see Squall's visions as anything more than the crazed projections of a tired and weary mind?

Okay, then Why is is there a 'crazed projection' of a helmut shattering when it didn't happen in the first place? ... hmm? Is there a problem granny? (Sorry just reminded me of that old "Crash Bandicoot" commercial.)

Wait, why the hell does something have to happen for Squall to have a crazed hallucination about it?


Look, my point is not to "prove" anything, because, the ENDING is totally open to suspicion. My mission is to understand, WHY... FOR LOVE OF THE WIDOW... WHY does this upset you all so much? As I stated before, and as it's been illustrated, everyone, EVERYONE sees the ending (the spawning of the E=U Theory, amongst others, aka VIEWS, yes, VIEWS). Ugh... Y'know... I just don't understand it... I just... I just don't... There are NO... "FACTS".... ONLY... FANTASY...

Even in fantasy, there are facts. Where is Frodo from, the Shire. Look! A fact in a fantasy!


I witnessed these same so called "facts" with the arguements of FFVII... And I just stood back and watch... And I didn't understand. There's no need to argue or say who's 'right' or 'wrong'... The ending itself is just.... For love of the widow... far from conclusively understandable.... and that is the source of all of these debates.... Why do people insist on this... Y'know what? Fuggit. I'll just concentrate on what I was doin'.... Talk amongst yourselves... I'll start a topic for you... Kefka or Sephiroth? Who was the more entertaining villain? I'm over klempt!

Now THAT is an example of something that IS a matter of pure opinion.

[McLovin']

It´s the second time i said it but that was the ring Squall gave to Rinoa so it can only be Rinoa!

But that doesn´t mean she died...ohhhh no sir it only shows one of the possible alternative futures and what would happen if Squall didn´t safe Rinoa.

Perhaps the ending was an alternate future if rinoa was not in his life.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

What's rational about this confusing ending. What's rational about "Time Compression" when no one actually agrees or understands it is; only to be bogged down by the next endless unproven 'theory'.

The fact of the matter is, that there is no conclusive understanding of how the ending ended, but I really just want to understand... Why is the R=U debated, instead of discussed? Why is it hated more than any other interpetation? Is it because people just don't want to see it that way?

I'm still working on my 'essay' but I'm trying to word it so that people understand I'm not "PROVE" anything... Just stating how I see the R=U is as 'plausiable' as anything else. I also want to try to prevent from getting trashed and burned like I did so many years ago.

You the flames... It was like I spouted blashphemy. And that's what I want to undestand why is this R=U trashed in such a fashion if it is just fantasy? I'm hoping to find something with the responses.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

It´s the second time i said it but that was the ring Squall gave to Rinoa so it can only be Rinoa!

But that doesn´t mean she died...ohhhh no sir it only shows one of the possible alternative futures and what would happen if Squall didn´t safe Rinoa.

Perhaps the ending was an alternate future if rinoa was not in his life.


Mmmmm.... Could be...:love:

[Go powerful women]

Alright. My opinion is that while Squall was alone on his little island of hopelessness he began to think of the one person whom he loved and gave him hope. The visions of Rinoa dying (the faceplate of the helmet breaking) was meant to crush Squall's spirit. (This vision was the scariest because it was the one time that he thought Rinoa was going to die so it was easiest to believe.) Seeing her die and believing that she was dead made Squall give up. Therefore he passed out right after that vision. He could withstand all the other crazy visions but her death was the last straw and he gave up. I also think that Squall got seperated from the others because his subconcious was concentrating on other things. Such as his childhood when he was alone, Edea, and what happened to Ultimecia. He wasn't able to find his way back like the others because he had things yet to do. Rinoa thought of how she wanted to go to the place they promised to meet so she went there. After a while she got worried and wanted to be where Squall was. Hence she ended up in Squall's desert. When she found Squall she wished that they could have met where they promised and the time compression ended and they ended up there.

[boys from the dwarf]

from this thread i have established that the visions at the end are just torment and madness and dont have much to do with reality. its rinoa in the spacesuit. squall give the ring to her and i dont see any reason why anyone else would want the ring. and as you learn in the garden war scene she is determined to survive because she has something important that belong to squall. that determination is what made her hang on when she was about to fall ad i think her seeing the ring in space was also part of her determination.

my opinion is that squall does die in the ending but i cant prove it and wont fight to prove my point if someone thinks otherwise. just remember that this is my opinion.

squall is lost and would definetly die because of lack of water and food. he's already tired out and the time compression makes him see disturbing visions and i think the final vision of rinoa dieing just finished him. he collapses and possibly dies. im not sure if rinoa would have acted the same way she does when she see's squall on the ground if he was alive.

the discussions about FF8's endless are endless. i agree with what PAK said about this just being ideas, ideas and mroe ideas piled up on each other and each question brings up new questions. good luck on your essay and it should help clear things up on the forums. maybe you could ask for the moderators to make it an important and permanent thread so these discussions dont happen about once a week. anyway. thats my say on the matter.

[Sir Bahamut]

Sorry, but is your opinion that Squall dies and then is revived by Rinoa, or that he dies permanently? If the latter, you realise you're implying that the whole Garden and all of Squall friends would be laughing merrily and joking about having a party right after Squall's death, right?

As for PAKs "essay", I think you should wait till you see it before making claims to its importance. No offense to PAK, but it may turn out to be entirely unnecessary.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

It´s the second time i said it but that was the ring Squall gave to Rinoa so it can only be Rinoa!

But that doesn´t mean she died...ohhhh no sir it only shows one of the possible alternative futures and what would happen if Squall didn´t safe Rinoa.

And this is a 'fact'? Not a point of view?

Alternative futures? Frankly, I don't see that happening because Ultimecia was only compressing the past of one timeline. But that's just my opinion/view.

The helmut is unclear on whether that is Rinoa or no. I think it could be either Squall or Rinoa, but the question remains... That didn't happen, or did it? How many licks does take to get to center of a tootie pop? :p (yeah, I know someone claims to have answered that but... :p)

In this case, it's more to the liking of "Which came first: The chicken or the egg? The helmut exploding or no? The world may never know...

Damn, now I got that tootsie roll song in my head... "The world look mighty good to me... Cuz' Tootisie Roll is all I see, whatever it is I THINK I SEE, becomes a tootsie roll to me... (sigh) Memories.:D :love:

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Sorry, but is your opinion that Squall dies and then is revived by Rinoa, or that he dies permanently? If the latter, you realise you're implying that the whole Garden and all of Squall friends would be laughing merrily and joking about having a party right after Squall's death, right?

As for PAKs "essay", I think you should wait till you see it before making claims to its importance. No offense to PAK, but it may turn out to be entirely unnecessary.

I'm beginning to think you're right Sir Bahamut. I think that Squall may have died the time Sorceress Edea struck him down with Blizzara. He was 'revived' ans sustained throughout the story since that time. He is then revived by Sorceress Rinoa at the end apparently. But could that have been a 'hallucination'? I don't think it was.

[Ryushikaze]

What's rational about this confusing ending. What's rational about "Time Compression" when no one actually agrees or understands it is; only to be bogged down by the next endless unproven 'theory'.

People not understanding something does not make it irrational. People did not understand the way, say lightning worked, this does not make lightning irrational. It may make their explanations irrational, but not the event itself.


The fact of the matter is, that there is no conclusive understanding of how the ending ended, but I really just want to understand... Why is the R=U debated, instead of discussed? Why is it hated more than any other interpetation? Is it because people just don't want to see it that way?

You've been told the reasons why several times. Don't pretend you haven't.


I'm still working on my 'essay' but I'm trying to word it so that people understand I'm not "PROVE" anything... Just stating how I see the R=U is as 'plausiable' as anything else. I also want to try to prevent from getting trashed and burned like I did so many years ago.

Except you'll be trying to prove how R=U is plausible. You'll never be able to escape peer review, PAK.


You the flames... It was like I spouted blashphemy. And that's what I want to undestand why is this R=U trashed in such a fashion if it is just fantasy? I'm hoping to find something with the responses.

Because 'fantasy' doesn't mean 'anything goes'. Even fantasy can be rationally scrutinized.



It´s the second time i said it but that was the ring Squall gave to Rinoa so it can only be Rinoa!

But that doesn´t mean she died...ohhhh no sir it only shows one of the possible alternative futures and what would happen if Squall didn´t safe Rinoa.

And this is a 'fact'? Not a point of view?

That it does not mean she died is fact. That it has a meaning is a point of view. Even this point of view must be supported with evidence or reasoning.


The helmut is unclear on whether that is Rinoa or no. I think it could be either Squall or Rinoa, but the question remains... That didn't happen, or did it? How many licks does take to get to center of a tootie pop? :p (yeah, I know someone claims to have answered that but... :p)

The helmet is not unclear at all.Two rings, Rinoa's rings, are visible. Arguing that it is anyone else is to argue against the evidence. Same as with 'did it happen' Rinoa is still alive. Arguing that she died is against the evidence.


In this case, it's more to the liking of "Which came first: The chicken or the egg? The helmut exploding or no? The world may never know...

We have no reason to think the helmet breaking ever occurred outside of Squall's fevered mind.


I'm beginning to think you're right Sir Bahamut. I think that Squall may have died the time Sorceress Edea struck him down with Blizzara. He was 'revived' ans sustained throughout the story since that time. He is then revived by Sorceress Rinoa at the end apparently. But could that have been a 'hallucination'? I don't think it was.

Evidence in favor of Squall dying, ever?
And where did SB ever front that interpretation?

[boys from the dwarf]

read my last post. that gives some hints of squall dieing. it cant be proved really but like i said. its the way rinoa acts when she see's him. she may not of reacted the same way if she was alive. and SB i meant he died then was revided. he cant have died permantently because you see him in the ending sequence of the credits.

[jammi567]

. he cant have died permantently because you see him in the ending sequence of the credits.
damm, that's what i was going to say. :)

[Sir Bahamut]

and SB i meant he died then was revided. he cant have died permantently because you see him in the ending sequence of the credits.

Ok, well that's fine. It makes no difference to the story if you believe he died or merely passed out anyway, so I have no "problems" with that statement.

By the way, I have to echo Ruy; when did I ever front Squall's death by Edea? I think that although it may be an interesting idea, it has no reasonable basis whatsoever.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia? Everyone says that there is no 'evidence' in the game, but it is suggestive in the ending. Sure Selphie, Irvine and the gang get their shine, but Rinoa's image is repeated at the end and no one else except Ultimecia, making it highly suggestive. Also, for the sake of the arguement "It not in the game" or there's no evidence"... There are several ways of seeing the ending.

There is the "Happy Ending" or the possiblity that Rinoa will/could become Ultimecia. For at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and because of the Fated Children and Ellone, Ultimecia possesses the entire Succession of Witches save for Rinoa; and Edea who would be the Fated Successor of Ultimecia thus creating the "Loop of Fate".

Whether Rinoa becomes Ultimeica or not, the Fate of the Fated Children was to be the Fated Safe-Guard that ensured the defeat of the Ultimate Sorceress: Ultimecia.

Now, as far as 'in the game' or 'evidence' goes, at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and can possess any Sorceress she so chooses, for she has (technically) already done so. Also, as the game shows, Sorceress Rinoa is the final Sorceress, there are no other Sorceresses in the game after the ending.

And as the arguements started so is there the mystery of 'what happens' now? Will Rinoa become Ultimecia?

Someone told me that it didn't matter WHO Rinoa's successor would be, but that it 'did'/'will' happen. It DOES matter because we have no other assurance of who that will be or if there is a successor at all. And there is the 'evidence' or lack there of... Of the 'possibility'. The only reason why it is rejected is because most do not want to see anything past the "Happy Ending"...

I personally don't believe that Sorceresses are 'immortal' but believe it or not kiddles, people DO live multiple generations. And as we see 'in the game' Edea Kramer succeeds Sorceress Ultimecia when she is around the age of 30 years old, and 15-18 years later she has not, cosmetically aged a day. Apparently, the Sorceress Power has the ability to affect the human physiology. (Elongated hair going to short, facial scars, tattooes, horns, and wings, ect). The ambiguity of what is defined as 'generations' or how many generations leaves the future untold as it should be for time travellers, otherwise they would go about trying to change 'fate' as Ultimecia did, but ultimately failed.

So... I don't see any reason 'Why Rinoa could become Ultimecia'.

Thank you... and good night.:eep:

[Sir Bahamut]

WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia? Everyone says that there is no 'evidence' in the game, but it is suggestive in the ending. Sure Selphie, Irvine and the gang get their shine, but Rinoa's image is repeated at the end and no one else except Ultimecia, making it highly suggestive.

Look again. Edea flashes over Rinoa's face before Ultimecia, and after Ultimecia every major character flashes on the screen in turn and order. Further, this is TC; everything is weird and little of it makes any sense at all, so it's hardly rational to pick out one tiny little thing which isn't even a unique thing and claim that it's somehow extremely special and indicative of a greater truth.

So considering that it's TC and it's NOT just Ultimecia, it is NOT highly suggestive of anything.


Now, as far as 'in the game' or 'evidence' goes, at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and can possess any Sorceress she so chooses, for she has (technically) already done so. Also, as the game shows, Sorceress Rinoa is the final Sorceress, there are no other Sorceresses in the game after the ending.

And as the arguements started so is there the mystery of 'what happens' now? Will Rinoa become Ultimecia?

Someone told me that it didn't matter WHO Rinoa's successor would be, but that it 'did'/'will' happen. It DOES matter because we have no other assurance of who that will be or if there is a successor at all. And there is the 'evidence' or lack there of... Of the 'possibility'.

That's all nice, but you didn't actually state any ingame evidence at all in that entire bulk of text. The fact that we do not know what will happen after the game does not in any way make R=U a valid theory.


The only reason why it is rejected is because most do not want to see anything past the "Happy Ending"...

No, it's rejected because people like yourself talk of evidence without actually providing any. People will believe what the game shows them, namely the "Happy Ending" unless you give them a very good reason as to why they should consider something different. You have not done so yet, and neither have any other R=U supporters.


I personally don't believe that Sorceresses are 'immortal' but believe it or not kiddles, people DO live multiple generations. And as we see 'in the game' Edea Kramer succeeds Sorceress Ultimecia when she is around the age of 30 years old, and 15-18 years later she has not, cosmetically aged a day. Apparently, the Sorceress Power has the ability to affect the human physiology. (Elongated hair going to short, facial scars, tattooes, horns, and wings, ect). The ambiguity of what is defined as 'generations' or how many generations leaves the future untold as it should be for time travellers, otherwise they would go about trying to change 'fate' as Ultimecia did, but ultimately failed.

There's no ambiguity. A generation can be anything between 20-30 years; let's assume 20. Now, "many" may be ambiguous, but in order to allow Rinoa to age naturally to Ultimecia, we'd have to interpret many as no more than 4 (and that'd make Rinoa about 98 years old mind you), which hardly seems reasonable.

Why not? Because besides the fact that entire point of using TC to travel to the future is to access Ultimecia who clearly lives far into the future, Laguna explicitly states that Ultimecia lives in a future where the party can technically speaking not exist. That is, they should all be dead by then.

But even if we ignore that, and seriously consider "many" as 4 generations, the Ultimecia we see should be old and haggard and frail. No matter how many powers she has, or to what great extent a sorceress can alter their appearances, the fact is that sorceress age like regular human beings, and so at age 98 they should be just about ready to keel over simply from old age. Ultimecia is clearly NOT in such a state.

The ONLY way for R=U to even be technically speaking possible in the first place is if you assume something along the lines of Rinoa being frozen down, but as we all know by now, such an assumption is utterly baseless and hardly suffices to render the theory valid.

[boys from the dwarf]

WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia?

its not impossible but there isn't enough proof to say that rinoa is definetly ultimecia. SB has explained everything. ultimecia could be nearly any female character in this game. its not impossible. but there is no solid proof. the R=U theory i good and the evidence it brings up is also good but it has been disproven. i like the theory but there is no solid evidence that say that rinoa must be ultimecia.

[Ryushikaze]

WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia? Everyone says that there is no 'evidence' in the game, but it is suggestive in the ending. Sure Selphie, Irvine and the gang get their shine, but Rinoa's image is repeated at the end and no one else except Ultimecia, making it highly suggestive. Also, for the sake of the arguement "It not in the game" or there's no evidence"... There are several ways of seeing the ending.

Yes, but without any evidence, there's no reason to believe any of them, especially the more outrageous of them.


There is the "Happy Ending" or the possiblity that Rinoa will/could become Ultimecia. For at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and because of the Fated Children and Ellone, Ultimecia possesses the entire Succession of Witches save for Rinoa; and Edea who would be the Fated Successor of Ultimecia thus creating the "Loop of Fate".

Whether Rinoa becomes Ultimeica or not, the Fate of the Fated Children was to be the Fated Safe-Guard that ensured the defeat of the Ultimate Sorceress: Ultimecia.

I don't see how this aids your position. The succession actually speaks against it.


Now, as far as 'in the game' or 'evidence' goes, at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and can possess any Sorceress she so chooses, for she has (technically) already done so. Also, as the game shows, Sorceress Rinoa is the final Sorceress, there are no other Sorceresses in the game after the ending.

Evidence, please?


And as the arguements started so is there the mystery of 'what happens' now? Will Rinoa become Ultimecia?

Someone told me that it didn't matter WHO Rinoa's successor would be, but that it 'did'/'will' happen. It DOES matter because we have no other assurance of who that will be or if there is a successor at all.

The succession of witches prove a successor, QED.


And there is the 'evidence' or lack there of... Of the 'possibility'. The only reason why it is rejected is because most do not want to see anything past the "Happy Ending"...

Appeal to motive. We reject it because it is groundless.


I personally don't believe that Sorceresses are 'immortal' but believe it or not kiddles, people DO live multiple generations. And as we see 'in the game' Edea Kramer succeeds Sorceress Ultimecia when she is around the age of 30 years old, and 15-18 years later she has not, cosmetically aged a day.

Evidence she was around thirty, and not around twenty? Evidence that she has not aged a day? Evidence that her appearance is out of the ordinary for a woman of her age?


Apparently, the Sorceress Power has the ability to affect the human physiology. (Elongated hair going to short, facial scars, tattooes, horns, and wings, ect). The ambiguity of what is defined as 'generations' or how many generations leaves the future untold as it should be for time travellers, otherwise they would go about trying to change 'fate' as Ultimecia did, but ultimately failed.

Bahamut dealt with this.


So... I don't see any reason 'Why Rinoa could become Ultimecia'.

And neither does anyone else.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia?

its not impossible but there isn't enough proof to say that rinoa is definetly ultimecia. SB has explained everything. ultimecia could be nearly any female character in this game. its not impossible. but there is no solid proof. the R=U theory i good and the evidence it brings up is also good but it has been disproven. i like the theory but there is no solid evidence that say that rinoa must be ultimecia.

Exactly.

[Sir Bahamut]

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

I'm saying... All things are possible. Rinoa is the last in the Succession of the Witches. She could be the one that becomes Ultimecia.

[Ryushikaze]

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

I'm saying... All things are possible. Rinoa is the last in the Succession of the Witches. She could be the one that becomes Ultimecia.

No. She isn't. Stop ignoring the succession of future witches. I KNOW I've told you to stop ignoring them at least three times now.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

I'm saying... All things are possible. Rinoa is the last in the Succession of the Witches. She could be the one that becomes Ultimecia.

No. She isn't. Stop ignoring the succession of future witches. I KNOW I've told you to stop ignoring them at least three times now.

I'm not ignoring the Succession of the Witches. Rinoa is the final Successor until Ultimecia. There's no one else. The Fated Children brought about the end of each predecessor of Sorceress Adel as they were supposed to. How am I ignoring the Succession of Witches?

[Ryushikaze]

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

I'm saying... All things are possible. Rinoa is the last in the Succession of the Witches. She could be the one that becomes Ultimecia.

No. She isn't. Stop ignoring the succession of future witches. I KNOW I've told you to stop ignoring them at least three times now.

I'm not ignoring the Succession of the Witches. Rinoa is the final Successor until Ultimecia. There's no one else. The Fated Children brought about the end of each predecessor of Sorceress Adel as they were supposed to. How am I ignoring the Succession of Witches?

They were travelling into the future.They were defeating future sorceresses.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

I'm saying... All things are possible. Rinoa is the last in the Succession of the Witches. She could be the one that becomes Ultimecia.

No. She isn't. Stop ignoring the succession of future witches. I KNOW I've told you to stop ignoring them at least three times now.

I'm not ignoring the Succession of the Witches. Rinoa is the final Successor until Ultimecia. There's no one else. The Fated Children brought about the end of each predecessor of Sorceress Adel as they were supposed to. How am I ignoring the Succession of Witches?

They were travelling into the future.They were defeating future sorceresses.

This does not answer the question of how was I ignoring the Succession of Witches. The Fated Children defeated the preceeding Succession of Witches as they travelled through Time Compression, aiding Ultimecia in to be given each of their power and preceeding that, it was with the help of Rinoa and Ellone, that she was able to possess all Sorceresses preceeding Adel. I'm not ignoring the Succession, the succession raises this possibility.

I don't see why this is such a problem. It's a possibility, but not a certainty. But apparently, this is a problem with people who can't stand to see their beloved Rinoa as some persecuted creature struggling to survive against the odds of Fate. Again, The Happy Ending and The Unknown Fate/Future. But let's not get into a slugfest about...

I don't see myself ignoring the Succession at all.

[Sir Bahamut]

This does not answer the question of how was I ignoring the Succession of Witches. The Fated Children defeated the preceeding Succession of Witches as they travelled through Time Compression, aiding Ultimecia in to be given each of their power and preceeding that, it was with the help of Rinoa and Ellone, that she was able to possess all Sorceresses preceeding Adel. I'm not ignoring the Succession, the succession raises this possibility.

The point is that there clearly existed sorceress between Rinoa and Ultimecia. These are the sorceress we fight when heading to Ultimecia's time. The fact that they are killed by the party does NOT in any way change the fact that they exist on the line of time in FF8. They were not eliminated from existence, and so after the game ends, they will all rise to power succesively, and all be killed by Squall and co in turn and order.

So by saying Rinoa is the last in the succession before Ultimecia, you are ignoring all those sorceress we see, answering your question.


I'm saying... All things are possible.

I find it odd that you have spent pages debating when all you wanted to point out could be said in this tiny sentence. Because yes, "all things are possible", but this is not relevant! A rational debate cannot be based on this premise, because it means we must give a fair trial to theories such as "Squall is an evolved Shumi", "Irvine is Edea" or any other number of absurd notions.

The premise "all things are possible" works fine if you're writing a fanfic, but in a logical debate, it's worthless and cannot even be seriously considered for a second.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

[quote]This does not answer the question of how was I ignoring the Succession of Witches. The Fated Children defeated the preceeding Succession of Witches as they travelled through Time Compression, aiding Ultimecia in to be given each of their power and preceeding that, it was with the help of Rinoa and Ellone, that she was able to possess all Sorceresses preceeding Adel. I'm not ignoring the Succession, the succession raises this possibility.


The point is that there clearly existed sorceress between Rinoa and Ultimecia. These are the sorceress we fight when heading to Ultimecia's time. The fact that they are killed by the party does NOT in any way change the fact that they exist on the line of time in FF8. They were not eliminated from existence, and so after the game ends, they will all rise to power succesively, and all be killed by Squall and co in turn and order.

Clearly you say? Then who is the Successor? No one? Hmm...


So by saying Rinoa is the last in the succession before Ultimecia, you are ignoring all those sorceress we see, answering your question.

Wait for it... Wait for it... Wait for it... Wait for it...

Really? And you can prove this? That there is a successor to Sorceress Rinoa? When clearly the Succession that the Fated Children were slaying were, if you were actually reading my previous statement, the Witches preceeding Adel. The ones that Ultimecia was gathering through Time Compression, the one that she needed Ellone and Rinoa's help in reaching... That's right, the past, not from the future. Which leaves... Rinoa as the only Sorceress left. Whether she is to succeeded or not is not evident leaving it in the hands of Fate. It's kinda scary for you/us to think that their Happy Ending could be as limited by time and fate as it was for Cid and Edea, huh? The game has a lot of strange reflections of history repeating itself... Doomsday is just around the corner, let's enjoy the time we have Squall and Rinoa...


I'm saying... All things are possible.


I find it odd that you have spent pages debating when all you wanted to point out could be said in this tiny sentence. Because yes, "all things are possible", but this is not relevant! A rational debate cannot be based on this premise, because it means we must give a fair trial to theories such as "Squall is an evolved Shumi", "Irvine is Edea" or any other number of absurd notions.

[quote]The premise "all things are possible" works fine if you're writing a fanfic, but in a logical debate, it's worthless and cannot even be seriously considered for a second.

When I played from a saved game about a day or so after beating this game to see the ending again, I still had questions running through my mind like: "But she's still a Sorceress! Won't they just try to lock her up again?" "Ultimecia still exists and can take control of her! WTF!"

Weeks later I heard of this R=U. That helped fill the blanks for me.

If there is a successor to Rinoa, name him/her. But there is no 'evidence' of a successor, is there? No... The Succession is there, but no successor.

All I'm seeing now is just some adamant view of "The Happy Ending"...

Almost a bigoted POV that nothing else could even be 'possible'?

And speaking of fan-fics...

"Enjoy your Happy Ending O'Fated Children, for time... it will not wait... no matter how hard you hold on, it escapes you. Fate, you can not escape it. The War of the Witches is coming. Let the Witch Hunts begin... Starting with Sorceress Rinoa. "

[Ryushikaze]

Clearly you say? Then who is the Successor? No one? Hmm...

Who the successor is is STILL irrelevant.


Wait for it... Wait for it... Wait for it... Wait for it...

Really? And you can prove this? That there is a successor to Sorceress Rinoa? When clearly the Succession that the Fated Children were slaying were, if you were actually reading my previous statement, the Witches preceeding Adel. The ones that Ultimecia was gathering through Time Compression, the one that she needed Ellone and Rinoa's help in reaching... That's right, the past, not from the future.

Care to provide a gorram lick of evidence that they are Adel's predecessors, given that the party is engaged in travelling to the future?


Which leaves... Rinoa as the only Sorceress left. Whether she is to succeeded or not is not evident leaving it in the hands of Fate. It's kinda scary for you/us to think that their Happy Ending could be as limited by time and fate as it was for Cid and Edea, huh?

Cid and Edea got a happy ending in the end.


When I played from a saved game about a day or so after beating this game to see the ending again, I still had questions running through my mind like: "But she's still a Sorceress! Won't they just try to lock her up again?" "Ultimecia still exists and can take control of her! WTF!"

Ulti can't take control of her. She's dead. If she was going to take control of Rinoa again, it would have to have been some time before taking over Edea, and that wouldn't make really any sense, since her original plan was to jump back as far in time as she could.


Weeks later I heard of this R=U. That helped fill the blanks for me.

While making so many more.


If there is a successor to Rinoa, name him/her. But there is no 'evidence' of a successor, is there? No... The Succession is there, but no successor.

Suzy F'in McGee. Though while you're asking us to provide evidence of a child capable of becoming a sorceress- which there has never been a lack for in all else of recorded history for these people- you provide none for your own position.


Almost a bigoted POV that nothing else could even be 'possible'?

Said the man trying to shove a ridiculously implausible scenario down our throats.

[Sir Bahamut]

To add one thing:


"Enjoy your Happy Ending O'Fated Children, for time... it will not wait... no matter how hard you hold on, it escapes you. Fate, you can not escape it. The War of the Witches is coming. Let the Witch Hunts begin... Starting with Sorceress Rinoa. "

We know that witches were eventually persecuted, but considering that Rinoa is close with the president of Esthar, a high ranking General of Deling and the commanding officer of SeeD, it seems highly unlikely that even IF persecutions started properly within Rinoa's lifetime, she'd be at all effected. I mean, hardly anyone actually knows she's a sorceress to begin with.

Further, the persecution of sorceresses is a great background for Ultimecia, but there's nothing that indicates that it isn't simply one of Rinoa's successors who is persecuted. Especially considering that Ultimecia (who is the one persecuted mostly) lives too far into the future for it to be Rinoa.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

To add one thing:


"Enjoy your Happy Ending O'Fated Children, for time... it will not wait... no matter how hard you hold on, it escapes you. Fate, you can not escape it. The War of the Witches is coming. Let the Witch Hunts begin... Starting with Sorceress Rinoa. "

We know that witches were eventually persecuted, but considering that Rinoa is close with the president of Esthar, a high ranking General of Deling and the commanding officer of SeeD, it seems highly unlikely that even IF persecutions started properly within Rinoa's lifetime, she'd be at all effected. I mean, hardly anyone actually knows she's a sorceress to begin with.

Further, the persecution of sorceresses is a great background for Ultimecia, but there's nothing that indicates that it isn't simply one of Rinoa's successors who is persecuted. Especially considering that Ultimecia (who is the one persecuted mostly) lives too far into the future for it to be Rinoa.

Then Laguna should have prevented her confinement to Lunatic Pandora the first time... Who's to say he can prevent another? Gen. Caraway is a apparently more of a soldier first and hardly a father at all. He organized the assasination of one Sorceress, why not another?

Also, Ultimecia is the only one that talks about persecution. There is no mention of generations of witches being persecuted. So...

There is nothing that indicates that it simply isn't Rinoa or that Rinoa has a successor.

And Ryukazie, as I explained earlier. they were so much as 'travelling to the future'; they 'hitched a ride' as Ultimecia was compressing time to gather all the fragments of Sorceress Power (Sorceresses) that we see the Fated Children destroy, compressing the past to the present. NOT Sorceresses from the 'future'. Read my previous posts before you just go off on me when I've been ignoring you as Leeza asked me to.

[Ryushikaze]

Then Laguna should have prevented her confinement to Lunatic Pandora the first time... Who's to say he can prevent another? Gen. Caraway is a apparently more of a soldier first and hardly a father at all. He organized the assasination of one Sorceress, why not another?

Because the other is his daughter, who he does care about, if he doesn't quite know how to deal with her.
Also, Rinoa was never confined in Lunatic Pandora, and didn't actually know Laguna before the first time she was to have been sealed, and guess who aided their withdrawl from the sealing facility? Laguna's friends, at his order. And he sure as smeg doesn't seem to want to try sealing her again, since he let his son run off with her during the ending.


There is nothing that indicates that it simply isn't Rinoa or that Rinoa has a successor.

And there is less to suggest she is Ulti. Guess which one is more parsimonious.


And Ryukazie

Seriously, control-c or don't even try.


, as I explained earlier. they were so much as 'travelling to the future'; they 'hitched a ride' as Ultimecia was compressing time to gather all the fragments of Sorceress Power (Sorceresses) that we see the Fated Children destroy, compressing the past to the present. NOT Sorceresses from the 'future'. Read my previous posts before you just go off on me when I've been ignoring you as Leeza asked me to.

Evidence for such an assertion. No, really. I really want to see your evidence for your claim, which you have simply been taking as a given, especially since it is less parsimonious than the party encountering future sorceresses on their path to the future.
I'd also like to know the effective difference between travelling and hitching a ride to the future.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Ryusaki
I am not gonna get into this with you. Because no matter what I say, it's just gonna turn into a slugfest with you.

You would think Caraway would suddenly be a father. I would think the same but it could turn out differently.

This is almost like the Dark Phoenix Saga, and I'm not talking about those crappy watered-down cartoon versions of the story. I'm talking about the original story. But like most, who have only seen the cartoon versions, they will fight tooth and nail because Jean Grey was the Phoenix. I say, I don't care. I know the truth and that's all the matters to me, and I just watch their little tales and theories about the phoenix force and what not. It doesn't bother me. That's not the case here.

Now the only 'evidence' to your claim is that you simply don't like the even the possibility that Rinoa could become Ultimecia, and that's all. You're the perfect example of those that desperately cling to the "Happy Ending"...


My evidence, has already been posted before, go back and read it. And the thing is you have no 'evidence' against it either.

Basically we're right where I said in the beginning: a war of perspective.

Sir Bahamut states that Squall is seeing Time Compression break down; Ryusakie says that it's Squall hallucinating... Is either factally evidenced, or just prespective?

I see the possibility you CHOOSE not to. And so now that that is dealt with... Why can't Rinoa possibly become Ultimecia?

[Ryushikaze]

Ryusaki

Control C or don't even try.


I am not gonna get into this with you. Because no matter what I say, it's just gonna turn into a slugfest with you.

'Because I'm being mean' is not a valid argument.


You would think Caraway would suddenly be a father. I would think the same but it could turn out differently.

He may be heavy handed, but he does seem to care about his daughter.


This is almost like the Dark Phoenix Saga, and I'm not talking about those crappy watered-down cartoon versions of the story. I'm talking about the original story. But like most, who have only seen the cartoon versions, they will fight tooth and nail because Jean Grey was the Phoenix. I say, I don't care. I know the truth and that's all the matters to me, and I just watch their little tales and theories about the phoenix force and what not. It doesn't bother me. That's not the case here.

Oh please, next time try using an example that hasn't been retconned all to hell.


Now the only 'evidence' to your claim is that you simply don't like the even the possibility that Rinoa could become Ultimecia, and that's all. You're the perfect example of those that desperately cling to the "Happy Ending"...

Textbook case appeal to motive.


My evidence, has already been posted before, go back and read it. And the thing is you have no 'evidence' against it either.

Concession Smegging accepted on the succession. Your 'evidence', before this, has been vague handwavy interpretations, certainly not enough to support a claim as outrageous as Rinoa living numerous generations past her fellows, going insane, and trying to become god.


Basically we're right where I said in the beginning: a war of perspective.

Basically, you can't realize that you cannot use perspective to endlessly defend.


Sir Bahamut states that Squall is seeing Time Compression break down; Ryusakie

Y'know what, you're officially not allowed to try and spell my name ever again. If you can't get it even get it wrong in a consistent manner, don't even bother trying to use it in the first place.


says that it's Squall hallucinating... Is either factally evidenced, or just prespective?

I fail to see how what he said is mutually exclusive with what I said. One could quite easily cause the other.


I see the possibility you CHOOSE not to. And so now that that is dealt with... Why can't Rinoa possibly become Ultimecia?

Firstly, please do not pretend that the burden of proof is on me. You're making the claim, so you have to provide evidence why and how Rinoa could become Ulti, and give sufficient evidence to show that these ways are so. Secondly, I see the possibility of R=U. I also see the possibility that Irvine = Ulti. The latter is only slightly less plausible than the first.
Though to humor you-
Rinoa's lack of Immortality, and thus inability to live so long that everyone else she knows will be long dead, for one. It requiring her to basically become an entirely different person- thus being Rinoa in body only, for two. Thirdly, it relies on numerous assumptions for which far more parsimonious explanations exist, both in what is chooses as 'evidence' and 'sequence of events'. Fourthly, NONE of the supplemental materials, especially not the Ultimania, give any support for it, and actually give evidence that makes it even less possible to exist, and such an omission from a book designed to 'give all the answers' like the Ultimania omitting such an important detail is really really REALLY unlikely.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

:p Unlikely, you say... How so? ROFL....:p

[Ryushikaze]

:p Unlikely, you say... How so? ROFL....:p

Because the entire point of the book is to answer the questions the game left behind. In such a light, them not having a space that says 'Oh yeah, and one of your party goes crazy and becomes the final boss' when they could spare time to discuss the workings of a GUNBLADE says something.

Concession accepted on all unaddressed points.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

:p Unlikely, you say... How so? ROFL....:p

Because the entire point of the book is to answer the questions the game left behind. In such a light, them not having a space that says 'Oh yeah, and one of your party goes crazy and becomes the final boss' when they could spare time to discuss the workings of a GUNBLADE says something.

Concession accepted on all unaddressed points.

If that's how you see it. But still Rinoa could become Ultimecia. There's nothing in the book thst states against it.

[Ryushikaze]

Yes, and such an absence of evidence tells the rational mind that there is no reason to assign an idea, ESPECIALLY one so outrageous, any validity.

Outrageous claims require extraordinary evidence.
Your claim it outrageous.
Your evidence is subpar. At best.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Yes, and such an absence of evidence tells the rational mind that there is no reason to assign an idea, ESPECIALLY one so outrageous, any validity.

Outrageous claims require extraordinary evidence.
Your claim it outrageous.
Your evidence is subpar. At best.


How is it outrageous? And please stop yelling. :p

P.S. Oh, and who are you to judge 'subpar' and what not? :D

[Ryushikaze]

How is it outrageous? And please stop yelling. :p

If you don't know how it is outrageous, you haven't been listening. R=U is in flagrant violation of parsimony up and down the field, and your refusal to present anything resembling substantial evidence isn't helping.
And I like emphasizing words by capping them. Big smegging deal.


P.S. Oh, and who are you to judge 'subpar' and what not? :D

I'm a critical thinker with the understandings of the mechanisms of rational , scientific thought. And by the by, that was an attack on the man, not the argument.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Yeah, I kinda saw the attack, but did ya see how I dodged it? Man, all those epsiodes of DBZ really paid off, huh?

But serioulsy... Can you describe in greater detail than 'parsimony' that's a very vague term to me.

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, I kinda saw the attack, but did ya see how I dodged it? Man, all those epsiodes of DBZ really paid off, huh?

You were the one attacking, 'Vegetto'. Oi.


But serioulsy... Can you describe in greater detail than 'parsimony' that's a very vague term to me.

Yes, since you don't even know what it means, as evidenced in a previous thread.
The logical principle of parsimony says that when two or more possible explanations exist for a given explanation, the one which requires more unsupported terms, or assumptions, should be disfavored over the one with fewer additional terms.
Guess how many unsupported terms R=U has compared to (to treat the negative case as a claim, even though there's no reason to) Rinoa is mortal and leads a relatively normal life?
There's 'the succession was of the past (even though the party went forward in time)', 'Ulti can still possess Rinoa (despite having wasted all her chances to do so)', 'Rinoa lives to a time where everyone else is dead (despite not being immortal)', 'Sorceress power retards aging (based on ages you've never confirmed)', Squall's visions in the end of time compression have special meaning, and these particular visions have a lot more meaning than anything else', and probably a few others that I can't recall right at the moment.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

[QUOTE=Pharoh Amon Khan III;1875484]Yeah, I kinda saw the attack, but did ya see how I dodged it? Man, all those epsiodes of DBZ really paid off, huh?


You were the one attacking, 'Vegetto'. Oi.

How did I attack? And it's Vegita-Sama, dozo arigato.


But serioulsy... Can you describe in greater detail than 'parsimony' that's a very vague term to me.


Yes, since you don't even know what it means, as evidenced in a previous thread.The logical principle of parsimony says that when two or more possible explanations exist for a given explanation, the one which requires more unsupported terms, or assumptions, should be disfavored over the one with fewer additional terms.

Oh so now you're gonna insult my intelligence... (tsk, tsk, tsk) this conversation is over. But before that here is this, ensummo... I purposely brought this to this point... Right now, your assuming and proclaiming evidence that there IS a successor to Rinoa just as you proclaim that R-U theorists pull outlandish things that don't exist. Do you see now why I say it's not a certaintity but a possibility. But somehow that bothers people, I don't know why. Clearly at the end there isn't a successor, and therefore it is open to fantasy, speculation, and perspective as ALL Final Fantasies have ended. The 2nd Generation are all just "Eye-Candy Hoars" that just play to the next FMV and don't want anyhthing to ruin that. The "Happy Ending" has some unanswered questions.


Guess how many unsupported terms R=U has compared to (to treat the negative case as a claim, even though there's no reason to) Rinoa is mortal and leads a relatively normal life? (Final Fantasy VII or VI ring a bell?)
There's 'the succession was of the past (even though the party went forward in time)'

:rolleyes2 They were witnessing the 'past' being compressed the the present/future of Ultimecia and all the Sorceresses before Adel's time being brought along with time being compressed to one point: Ultimecia's time. Ultimecia was drawing the Succession to her present (the past succession) the Fated Children hitched a ride on that. The Fated Children went forward in time killing the Succession of Witches from the Past that Ultimecia was trying to get to and succeeded thanks to Rinoa and Ellone. She didn't need Ellone or Rinoa for any possible successors of Rinoa... That's right, I said p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e successors. But seeing as there were none in sight or mentioned... It's (ctrl+C) p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e, that there are no successors to Sorceress Rinoa. Fate is a double-edged sword... You never know exactly how it's gonna cut... And, why can't there be a negative case? FFVII didn't turn out as happy go lucky as people wanted it to be... LOL


'Ulti can still possess Rinoa (despite having wasted all her chances to do so)', '

Okay, clearly you don't understand what I'm saying, but I hope you do understand, that Ultimecia did that when she was desperately trying to avoid fate, when it was just a breath away... That's the series of unfortunate/fortunate events you're talking about. Who's to say that she didn't do it any other time before then? From your perspective, she may do it again right after the "Happy Ending" IF she isn't Rinoa.
Time-travel is funny that way. If you don't understand, don't get into it with me. I'd rather speak with someone I respect more on the subject, like Sir Bahamut. In the end, Ultimecia still exists in the future and take possession of Rinoa (unless she is Rinoa) anytime she chooses. If you don't see how this works, clearly your are clinging desperately to the "Happy Ending" and/or have no understanding of the consequences/conveniances of time travel.


Rinoa lives to a time where everyone else is dead (despite not being immortal)',

And YOU can determine who lives or dies in the path of time. I mean, you know this? You know this for sure, right? Just like everyone esle who saw the ending of FFVII for sure? Before Advent Children and Dirge of Cerebus? Huh? Bur-Shee-Sum-Mo! This is an opinionated statement. There's no absolute of how far in the fjuture they travelled. So let me sound like you and other others that have an official aire about themselves: That's invalid.

Why couldn't she have survived when others have died? Was there a war? Plague? Car accident? Did history repeat itself again in a strange twist of unfortunate events? I guess we'll never know...

I never said that the Sorceress power retards aging, just that it retards one 'looking', (e.g. cosmetically) like they've aged. Again, clearly you do not understand me or choose not to. There's no telling what happens during that time and people can still live several generations. Who's to say that Rinoa, a Sorceress of The Great Hyne, will not live that long? There's a woman here in my city that is still alive since 1933. Oh and don't bother with well she would be an 'invalid'. Right, this from characters that can take getting mauled by a tiger, sip some gatorade and say "ow"? I'm sure they have some modern medicine. Even still, even though I don't believe that Ultimecia used Odine's 'as yet designed or built JME, Ultimecia has access to whatever she needs technologically aside from the Sorceress Power.

'
Sorceress power retards aging (based on ages you've never confirmed)',


And might I add 'ages' that no one has confirmed, but only ASSUMED. And as I explained earlier, I never said it retarded aging, but kept her looking young. Do you see how we're all on the level of perspective now?



Squall's visions in the end of time compression have special meaning, and these particular visions have a lot more meaning than anything else', and probably a few others that I can't recall right at the moment.


For the Love of the Widow, you are a piece of work, aren't ya? Isn't that 'parsimonious'? I mean, you totally ignored my statement that you and Sir Bahamut have different VIEWS on what was happening. Was it a hallucination or Time Compression decompressing? Now whose posting a postulate? ROFLMAO!!!! So tell me the facts and evidence of the 'special meaning'? And when you do... are you speaking from evidence or perspective?

Personally, I prefer the TC observation of it, but the exploding helmut does suggest it may have been a hallucination... I'm open either way it goes...

And so... I'm done with you Yua-Sakei... whatever.... No ever gets my name right and I don't mind... It's Pharoh Amon Khan III, but they go with PAK simply because it's too long and they don't bother, too lazy, or can't spell it right... I don't know, I don't care. So... G'night Tork Smacky.

ONE MOooooRe thing... Why couldn't Rinoa be Ultimecia? As far as we all know for certain, Rinoa is the Final Sorceress, and there is no evidence of a Successor. Enjoy your Happy Ending, for time... it will not wait... Fate... it escapes you... Reflect on your feelings, your emotions... and toss 'em out the window cuz the Bantha Poo-Joo is gonna hit the aft-accellorator. Ah, sue me, I'm listening to SW:EP1 SDTK.


And one more thing: Ryushikaze, Yo-ka-sama-ree.

[Sir Bahamut]

PAK, please do not try and set up some sort of differences between me and Ryu here. I'm think we both agree on the fundamental point of Squall's weird experience; that it was a combination of TC breaking down and Squall's sad/desperate state of mind (since after all, TC reacts to thoughts/emotions as stated by Laguna). As for knowledge on time travel, if you have respect for what little I know on the subject, I can assure you that the same respect can easily be given to Ryu as well.

So please rather focus on Ryu's points instead of trying to point out that we disagree on something, when in reality we probably don't. A few more things:


Also, Ultimecia is the only one that talks about persecution. There is no mention of generations of witches being persecuted. So...

You should refresh your FF8 knowledge:

Edea: "...Lowlifes. ...Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my
ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA."

Sure, when the game ends, we haven't been introduced to anyone who's going to take Rinoa's powers, but that's because it's not important to the storyline to see someone specific. We simply know by the nature of sorceress powers that she must give up her powers eventually, so there will be a successor.


Who's to say that Rinoa, a Sorceress of The Great Hyne, will not live that long?

Square-Enix.


Oh and don't bother with well she would be an 'invalid'. Right, this from characters that can take getting mauled by a tiger, sip some gatorade and say "ow"?

Firstly, battle physics is not the same as storyline physics, clearly. In the storyline, one bullet was going to be enough to take down Edea, yet in battle, you can slash her to pieces with a huge sword and nothing happens.

Secondly, if for some reason aging was not a problem in FF8, it would hardly be meaningful for Square to explicitly state that sorceresses age like regular human beings. Clearly it was put there to indicate that they grow old, weak, and die like everyone else. Also, I'm sure we must see old people in FF8 at some point...

I'll leave the rest to Ryu, as I have school work, and you're just repeating yourself over and over again. And the point you're repeating (that the theory is "possible") is completely worthless anyway.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

PAK, please do not try and set up some sort of differences between me and Ryu here. I'm think we both agree on the fundamental point of Squall's weird experience; that it was a combination of TC breaking down and Squall's sad/desperate state of mind (since after all, TC reacts to thoughts/emotions as stated by Laguna). As for knowledge on time travel, if you have respect for what little I know on the subject, I can assure you that the same respect can easily be given to Ryu as well.

Thank you. I would hope that we come to some form of ammeleration. I trust you respect my views on time travel as well. I did not want to set up walls between you two, but rather point out the perspective/facts I spoke of years ago... Has it been years now? Ah, let's move on...


You should refresh your FF8 knowledge:

Edea: "...Lowlifes. ...Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my
ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA."

I think you should take a leaf from your own book.... I hope you remember that that was Ultimecia speaking through a possessed Sorceress Edea. So it was Ultimecia that spoke of persecution throughout generations, no one else. And for that matter what the helled-horrors where the dullards of Dollet doin' cheerin' on da Scourge of the Planet? No seriously, I've been trying to figure that one since day one! Ah, screw it.


Sure, when the game ends, we haven't been introduced to anyone who's going to take Rinoa's powers, but that's because it's not important to the storyline to see someone specific. We simply know by the nature of sorceress powers that she must give up her powers eventually, so there will be a successor.

We do not know... you assume. As only we all can at this point. There is no suggestion of a successor. There were no Sorceresses from the future for Ultimecia to collect, only the ones in the past as we see during Time Compression. They were the reason she needed Ellone; they were the necessary catalyst to begin Time Compression as we see start moments later. Leaving only Sorceress Rinoa after that succession was destroyed.


Who's to say that Rinoa, a Sorceress of The Great Hyne, will not live that long?


Square-Enix.

Square merely said that Sorceresses live normal life spans. People can live several generations. And coupled with the power of Hyne... Might be something awfully fishy in Denmark.


Firstly, battle physics is not the same as storyline physics, clearly. In the storyline, one bullet was going to be enough to take down Edea, yet in battle, you can slash her to pieces with a huge sword and nothing happens.

True. What was I thinking? But what of Squall's wound from Blizzara? I have an idea about that one, but that's not important now...


Secondly, if for some reason aging was not a problem in FF8, it would hardly be meaningful for Square to explicitly state that sorceresses age like regular human beings. Clearly it was put there to indicate that they grow old, weak, and die like everyone else. Also, I'm sure we must see old people in FF8 at some point...

Unlike Edea or Ultimecia, or Adel who clearly did something... Square's gotta do something about their androgyony issues. Maybe the Successor to Rinoa was Kuja... :D

As you said, A Sorceress can not die in peace without passing on her power... If there's no one around what happens until she can find a host? I would hate for the poor thing to suffer but... Whadda ya gonna do? I don't really go with that idea but it's something to consider... But even still, I don't see any reason why Rinoa couldn't live to Ultimecia's undetermined time era.


I'll leave the rest to Ryu, as I have school work, and you're just repeating yourself over and over again. And the point you're repeating (that the theory is "possible") is completely worthless anyway.

Einstien's theory of relativity has not been proven... It's just that most, , not all, believe it to be a strong and sound possibility. And so I will continue to call it so.

Also, I do not want to sound rude or petty. But, I do not think I will speak with Ryushikaze... I'm not being rude, but I'm just being honest. I do not have as much respect for him as I for you Sir Bahamut; nor as much as you have for him. At least not for a while... I don't want this thread to get closed.

:eep:

[Ryushikaze]

How did I attack? And it's Vegita-Sama, dozo arigato.

Granted, it was a poor attack, but asking who I am to examine evidence and find it lacking is merely a way of avoiding the point. And you get to be Vegeta when you prove you can handle him.


Oh so now you're gonna insult my intelligence... (tsk, tsk, tsk) this conversation is over.

Pot. Kettle. Black. And I wasn't insulting your intelligence. You revealed in a previous thread you had no idea what it meant.


But before that here is this, ensummo... I purposely brought this to this point... Right now, your assuming and proclaiming evidence that there IS a successor to Rinoa just as you proclaim that R-U theorists pull outlandish things that don't exist.

Given that there seems to always be a successor to be found, I don't see how one would suddenly be unable to be found for Rinoa's sake. Of course, I'M still waiting for


Do you see now why I say it's not a certaintity but a possibility.

But it's so implausible as to be pointless to consider.


But somehow that bothers people, I don't know why. Clearly at the end there isn't a successor, and therefore it is open to fantasy, speculation, and perspective as ALL Final Fantasies have ended. The 2nd Generation are all just "Eye-Candy Hoars" that just play to the next FMV and don't want anyhthing to ruin that. The "Happy Ending" has some unanswered questions.


(Final Fantasy VII or VI ring a bell?)

Vague, handwavy claims are not evidence. And VI has a precedence of a 'special' girl turning into a mere mortal at the end as well. Of course, even then they're still irrelevant.


:rolleyes2 They were witnessing the 'past' being compressed the the present/future of Ultimecia and all the Sorceresses before Adel's time being brought along with time being compressed to one point: Ultimecia's time. Ultimecia was drawing the Succession to her present (the past succession) the Fated Children hitched a ride on that.

And where is your evidence for this assertion, that all the sorceresses we see are of the past, that none are from the future, that they aren't all from the intervening years between Rinoa and Ulti. I mean really, you have no evidence for this claim at all.


The Fated Children went forward in time killing the Succession of Witches from the Past that Ultimecia was trying to get to and succeeded thanks to Rinoa and Ellone. She didn't need Ellone or Rinoa for any possible successors of Rinoa... That's right, I said p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e successors. But seeing as there were none in sight or mentioned... It's (ctrl+C) p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e, that there are no successors to Sorceress Rinoa. Fate is a double-edged sword... You never know exactly how it's gonna cut... And, why can't there be a negative case?

*Sigh* Negative case doesn't mean 'unhappy', a negative claim is, for example, the lack of belief in god or ghosts. Positive claims would be 'god/ghosts exist', and the people who make these assertions must provide evidence of these claims, and given the nature of each claim, the evidence they give must be of an extraordinary nature.


FFVII didn't turn out as happy go lucky as people wanted it to be... LOL

And?


Okay, clearly you don't understand what I'm saying, but I hope you do understand, that Ultimecia did that when she was desperately trying to avoid fate, when it was just a breath away... That's the series of unfortunate/fortunate events you're talking about. Who's to say that she didn't do it any other time before then? From your perspective, she may do it again right after the "Happy Ending" IF she isn't Rinoa.

Yes, again, it's possible, in the same was space whales are, but without any evidence that she spent her formative years possessing anyone other than Edea, wasting her own time by letting herself get further and further from her goal by possessing people well below the threshold of her machine.


Time-travel is funny that way. If you don't understand, don't get into it with me. I'd rather speak with someone I respect more on the subject, like Sir Bahamut. In the end, Ultimecia still exists in the future and take possession of Rinoa (unless she is Rinoa) anytime she chooses. If you don't see how this works, clearly your are clinging desperately to the "Happy Ending" and/or have no understanding of the consequences/conveniances of time travel.

No, I see how it works, but I also see when it would have to work, and I see how wasting such a time would be counterproductive to her goals of getting as far into the past as possible.


And YOU can determine who lives or dies in the path of time. I mean, you know this? You know this for sure, right? Just like everyone esle who saw the ending of FFVII for sure? Before Advent Children and Dirge of Cerebus? Huh? Bur-Shee-Sum-Mo! This is an opinionated statement. There's no absolute of how far in the fjuture they travelled. So let me sound like you and other others that have an official aire about themselves: That's invalid.

Edea, after you free her: Ultimecia is a sorceress from the
future. A sorceress many generations ahead of our time.
Laguna, after everyone and their cat knows about Ulti (AKA after Edea briefed them on her): Ultimecia lives far in the future where none of us can technically exist.

No absolute, but a definite lower limit, enough generations that none of them could technically exist. Invalid, huh?


Why couldn't she have survived when others have died? Was there a war? Plague? Car accident? Did history repeat itself again in a strange twist of unfortunate events? I guess we'll never know...

And what's your evidence that anything of the sort happened?


I never said that the Sorceress power retards aging, just that it retards one 'looking', (e.g. cosmetically) like they've aged. Again, clearly you do not understand me or choose not to.

Yes, but you've actually failed to provide evidence that it preserves cosmetic youth. You've said 'Edea hasn't changed a day from the past', but you've not provided a 'past' Edea FMV for a comparison, or any reason for us to think she looks out of the ordinary for a woman of her general age range.


There's no telling what happens during that time and people can still live several generations. Who's to say that Rinoa, a Sorceress of The Great Hyne, will not live that long? There's a woman here in my city that is still alive since 1933. Oh and don't bother with well she would be an 'invalid'. Right, this from characters that can take getting mauled by a tiger, sip some gatorade and say "ow"? I'm sure they have some modern medicine. Even still, even though I don't believe that Ultimecia used Odine's 'as yet designed or built JME, Ultimecia has access to whatever she needs technologically aside from the Sorceress Power.

Are you STILL harping on this 'hasn't built it' line? How many times must I quote Odine himself at you?


"Eghhhhhh! I kept this a secret to surprise you. It iz because of me, Odine! I researched Ellone's power long ago. I made out a pattern from ze electric current running through Ellone's brain. Once ze pattern was determined, it was easy to mechanize. It may only be a toy right now, but in ze time of Ultimecia, it iz an impressive working machine! Which means there iz a machine which imitates Ellone's power. It iz I who made ze first model of zat machine. I named ze machine 'Junction Machine Ellone'! It iz a vonderful thing to know that my invention is used in ze future!"

And given that they were most likely informed by Edea and never contradicted, why should we doubt the man's words?


And might I add 'ages' that no one has confirmed, but only ASSUMED. And as I explained earlier, I never said it retarded aging, but kept her looking young. Do you see how we're all on the level of perspective now?

So you admit it's an assumption that she must already be in her 30's. I'd also like you to provide comparison shots between young and old Edea, and show how Old Edea looks out of the ordinary for a woman in the 30's to 40's range.


For the Love of the Widow, you are a piece of work, aren't ya? Isn't that 'parsimonious'? I mean, you totally ignored my statement that you and Sir Bahamut have different VIEWS on what was happening. Was it a hallucination or Time Compression decompressing? Now whose posting a postulate? ROFLMAO!!!! So tell me the facts and evidence of the 'special meaning'? And when you do... are you speaking from evidence or perspective?

You tell me, you yabbo. YOU are the one claiming these visions have meaning.


And so... I'm done with you Yua-Sakei... whatever.... No ever gets my name right and I don't mind... It's Pharoh Amon Khan III, but they go with PAK simply because it's too long and they don't bother, too lazy, or can't spell it right... I don't know, I don't care. So... G'night Tork Smacky.

Using your initials is definitely on a different level than repeatedly and now deliberately getting the name wrong, pharie amen kain.


ONE MOooooRe thing... Why couldn't Rinoa be Ultimecia? As far as we all know for certain, Rinoa is the Final Sorceress, and there is no evidence of a Successor.

And as we also all know for certain, she's mortal.


I think you should take a leaf from your own book.... I hope you remember that that was Ultimecia speaking through a possessed Sorceress Edea. So it was Ultimecia that spoke of persecution throughout generations, no one else. And for that matter what the helled-horrors where the dullards of Dollet doin' cheerin' on da Scourge of the Planet? No seriously, I've been trying to figure that one since day one! Ah, screw it.

Galbadia. And why should it be surprising that she's the one who speaks of persecution throughout generations?


We do not know... you assume. As only we all can at this point. There is no suggestion of a successor. There were no Sorceresses from the future for Ultimecia to collect, only the ones in the past as we see during Time Compression. They were the reason she needed Ellone; they were the necessary catalyst to begin Time Compression as we see start moments later.

No, seriously, WHERE are you getting this from?


Leaving only Sorceress Rinoa after that succession was destroyed.

And a planet full of girls who could be viable successors.


Square merely said that Sorceresses live normal life spans. People can live several generations. And coupled with the power of Hyne... Might be something awfully fishy in Denmark.

Even if the power halts cosmetic aging, you still have to deal with the "she lives far in the future where none of us can technically exist". Clearly, Laguna- who would have been briefed on such things by Edea and Odine- thinks the gap is so long that death by old age is going to be a problem.


As you said, A Sorceress can not die in peace without passing on her power... If there's no one around what happens until she can find a host? I would hate for the poor thing to suffer but... Whadda ya gonna do? I don't really go with that idea but it's something to consider... But even still, I don't see any reason why Rinoa couldn't live to Ultimecia's undetermined time era.

Because she's mortal, and the time, while undetermined, is stated as being too far in the future for anyone in the party to exist into.


Einstien's theory of relativity has not been proven...

Nothing has been 'proven', but there is such a thing as degrees of certainty.


It's just that most, , not all, believe it to be a strong and sound possibility. And so I will continue to call it so.

Now, here's the thing, evidence in favor of his theory can be found, in that it successfully predicted a great deal of the workings of the non-quantum universe. Your postulate, meanwhile, only has 'could be' in its favor, same as 8 ft space monkeys.


Also, I do not want to sound rude or petty. But, I do not think I will speak with Ryushikaze... I'm not being rude, but I'm just being honest. I do not have as much respect for him as I for you Sir Bahamut; nor as much as you have for him. At least not for a while... I don't want this thread to get closed.

How should your respect for me be at ALL relevant? It's not me, but the points I am presenting that you have to deal with.

[Sir Bahamut]

I think you should take a leaf from your own book.... I hope you remember that that was Ultimecia speaking through a possessed Sorceress Edea. So it was Ultimecia that spoke of persecution throughout generations, no one else.

Of course I remember that. And don't twist your own words. You said, and I quote, that "There is no mention of generations of witches being persecuted". Clearly the quote I provided (spoken by Ultimecia through Edea) proves that sorceresses had been persecuted for generations.


As you said, A Sorceress can not die in peace without passing on her power... If there's no one around what happens until she can find a host? I would hate for the poor thing to suffer but... Whadda ya gonna do? I don't really go with that idea but it's something to consider...

It may be interesting to consider, but it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Clearly Rinoa isn't the only person alive in the world of FF8, and so we can assume that she'd find a successor eventually. Even if you assume she somehow doesn't, then the Ultimecia we see should spontanously give up her powers to one of the main party members when you face her in her room (not to mention that she should be twisted with pain).

As for not speaking with Ryu, you can do as you please. I won't reiterate the points Ryu made though, and you can't really make a case without answering them too.

[licence]

I would quote the "die in peace part" said by PAK so people would know what I'm referring to but it is quite a lot of stuff to read through.

Anyways...just because it says a soceress can't die in peace, doesn't mean she cannot die. Dying in peace may refer to a number of things. It may mean that even though she is dead, she can't truly rest or move onto any possible afterlife. Like the Unknown King, whose passage wasn't allowed because of some reason (if anyone can actaully correct me on that part, I'm a little sketchy on it but I can remeber seeing a ghost of some type). Just because she isn't allowed to die peacefully, doesn't mean she can't die but have to stay in this world.

[finalfantasyguy4ever]

he was thinking crazy stuff that didnt happen. being worn out can play tricks on ur mind. he fights adel, goes to tc, and fight sorceruss, come to ultis caslte, and fights her gaurds ,and the fight ulti. i would be worn out if i could complete lionheart one time. he was juist worn out and his mine was playing tricks on him and he felt alone

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I think you should take a leaf from your own book.... I hope you remember that that was Ultimecia speaking through a possessed Sorceress Edea. So it was Ultimecia that spoke of persecution throughout generations, no one else.


Of course I remember that. And don't twist your own words. You said, and I quote, that "There is no mention of generations of witches being persecuted". Clearly the quote I provided (spoken by Ultimecia through Edea) proves that sorceresses had been persecuted for generations.

Sorry, didn't mean to do a spin-out and barely miss a crash and burn. That was a mistake on my part. post you quoted was what I meant, but I did not word it properly. But the point remains that Ultimecia is the only one speaking of being persecuted for generations. Is the persecution that Rinoa experienced or the successor? It could be either/or.


As you said, A Sorceress can not die in peace without passing on her power... If there's no one around what happens until she can find a host? I would hate for the poor thing to suffer but... Whadda ya gonna do? I don't really go with that idea but it's something to consider...


It may be interesting to consider, but it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Clearly Rinoa isn't the only person alive in the world of FF8, and so we can assume that she'd find a successor eventually. Even if you assume she somehow doesn't, then the Ultimecia we see should spontanously give up her powers to one of the main party members when you face her in her room (not to mention that she should be twisted with pain).

Assume you may, but isn't that the problem? Choice, the problem is choice, but so is the answer. Either you choose to believe that Rinoa will find a successor because you want to believe the Happy Ending, or you keep in mind that she may not.

I trust you understand that we've reached the point of neutrality that I've been speaking of all long. The future is probability. This is what I meant about Ultimecia unable to compress the future, only present and past.

Odine, whom I find to boastful in his statement about the future, is constantly used as 'truth', but it was Odine himself, who is older than most of the characters says that he built the machine for Ultimecia, almost in the context that it was in his life time and under Ultimecia's orders...

You see how we're at the conflict of perspectives? You can I either choose to see it one way or the other. I choose to look at both aspects of a possiblity but not certainty, though certainty murders possiblity, we have no certainty here. Like I said, I had questions at the end, and these are possible answers as is E=MC2.

Aside from remaining cosmetically beautiful, Ultimecia doesn't seem to be the perfect picture of health. If I remember correctly,(and I could be wrong) she was struggling more than stuttering words, and she looked kinda of 'shakey' when she stands. Ah, coulda beent the weight of the horns on her head... :p

As for not speaking with Ryu, you can do as you please. I won't reiterate the points Ryu made though, and you can't really make a case without answering them too.


As for Ryu, he's not making any points from my point of view, he's just criping and doing anything he can to make a childish retort to anything he doesn't want to be a possibility at the very least. Not even the idea of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia is his problem. Clearly, he doesn't understand anything I say.

And also, there's no way I'm going to respond to a (new net-slang term coming up kids!) "Quote Qwazy" post like that. That's just crazy, self-indulgent and delusional because he obviously has too much time on your hands. And as I said, he didn't understand anything I said. I have nothing to say to Ryu...

[Ryushikaze]

As for Ryu, he's not making any points from my point of view, he's just criping and doing anything he can to make a childish retort to anything he doesn't want to be a possibility at the very least. Not even the idea of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia is his problem. Clearly, he doesn't understand anything I say.

Y'know, for someone who gets cheesed off when I come anywhere close to insulting you, you certainly aren't taking pains to be civil.


And also, there's no way I'm going to respond to a (new net-slang term coming up kids!) "Quote Qwazy" post like that. That's just crazy, self-indulgent and delusional because he obviously has too much time on your hands. And as I said, he didn't understand anything I said. I have nothing to say to Ryu...

Yes... It's my point by point posting method, and NOT the points therein that you don't want to deal with. RIIIIIIIGHT. Y'know, only one other person that I can remember used my posting methodology as an excuse to beg out of an argument with me. Joining that group does not reflect favorably on you, Khan.
And for the record, Ad Hominem.
Also for the record, Concession Accepted. Good day.

Addendum: Heck, I'll deal with some of this anyways...


Odine, whom I find to boastful in his statement about the future, is constantly used as 'truth', but it was Odine himself, who is older than most of the characters says that he built the machine for Ultimecia, almost in the context that it was in his life time and under Ultimecia's orders...

No. He doesn't. And if you want to claim he does, provide evidence.



Aside from remaining cosmetically beautiful, Ultimecia doesn't seem to be the perfect picture of health. If I remember correctly,(and I could be wrong) she was struggling more than stuttering words, and she looked kinda of 'shakey' when she stands. Ah, coulda beent the weight of the horns on her head...

Yes. You are incorrect. You've been incorrect on a LOT of things having to do with FF8, sometimes despite being corrected.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Doc Odine
"Eghhhhhh!"
"I kept this a secret to surprise you...It iz because of me, Odine!"
"I researched Ellone's power long ago."
"I made out a pattern from ze electric current running through Ellone's
brain."
"Once ze pattern was determined, it was easy to mechanize."
"It may only be a toy right now, but in ze time of Ultimecia, it iz an
impressive working machine!"
"Which means there iz a machine which imitates Ellone's power."
"It iz I who made ze first model of zat machine."
"I named ze machine 'Junction Machine Ellone'!"
"It iz a wonderful thing to know that my invention is used in ze future!"

Squall
"Junction Machine Ellone."

Laguna
"That's about it."

Squall
"So Sorceress Ultimecia came to know about Ellone, from that machine.'

Laguna
"And Elle became Ultimecia's target."
"You can't blame Odine. It's useless."

Doc Odine
"You vant to go outside!? You vant to fisticuffs!?"
"Ok, we continue the story!"

<<No>>

Doc Odine
"Zat is too bad."

<<END CHOICE>>

My assumption of why Odine made the machine was wrong. I didn't remember exactly until just now I went to Icybrian and found the script. So, I'm knocking off my statement of Odine. I misinterpretated him. And I'm challeneging myself to say "but" it could be that some other scientists continued based upon his notes to evolve the JME. But that just bring us back to the unknown future or perspective. Basically, it's as irrelevant as assuming that Rinoa 'obviously' has a successor or not.

Let's continue, shall we?

[sephirothishere]

hey...whoawhoawhoawhoawhoawhoa.....this is kinda gettin outta hand...every thread i go into its like ryu khan ryu khan ryu khan....rkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkr.,......i dont even bother readin the posts anymore.....agree to disagree.....no wait...i dont mean that....yeh so anyway this is some weak ass /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif no get with it....dudes relax....you are jus messin with each others heads....

[Sir Bahamut]

PAK:

As I said, your only argument is that since we don't know for sure what will happen, anything could happen. Although it's true, it's entirely worthless in a rational debate, because it means ANYTHING can be considered a valid theory (eg. Irvine = Ultimecia etc.). For a rational debate to work in a meaningful way, a theory can only be considered valid if it meets certain criteria. It needs to have substantial, preferably unambiguous backing from the game itself (eg. through dialogue or misc. information etc.), must be reasonable when put in context with the entire story (ie. if the theory goes entirely against the entire rest of the story, it probably isn't that good), and must contain as few unfounded assumptions as possible. If faced with several competing theories, we then use the principle of parsimony to determine the better theory.

R=U not only suffers from lack of evidence, but it is unreasonable when placed in context with the rest of the story, and is MUCH less parsiminous than other theories on Ultimecia's background. Thus although R=U is technically speaking as possible as Irvine = Ultimecia or whatever, it cannot be said to be a valid theory. At least not in the context of rational debate.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

To Sephirothishere:
Relax... That's all over with now. And lighten the mood, some inspired music sung to the tune of "Mighty Mouse Is Here"

"Here he comes, get out the way... My god, it's Sephiroth is on his way!

With the masamune he will fillet... And burn the town of the vitcims he slayed.

Herald of the doomsday... For Sephiroth Is Here.... Todaaaaaaay.."

I probably could have done better or worse, but y'know... I'm no Lionel Richie.

Everyone else: Who?

Nevermind. Hope I didn't offend you Sephirothishere, I just saw your name and well... You see the results of my mind...

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

PAK:

As I said, your only argument is that since we don't know for sure what will happen, anything could happen. Although it's true, it's entirely worthless in a rational debate, because it means ANYTHING can be considered a valid theory (eg. Irvine = Ultimecia etc.). For a rational debate to work in a meaningful way, a theory can only be considered valid if it meets certain criteria. It needs to have substantial, preferably unambiguous backing from the game itself (eg. through dialogue or misc. information etc.), must be reasonable when put in context with the entire story (ie. if the theory goes entirely against the entire rest of the story, it probably isn't that good), and must contain as few unfounded assumptions as possible. If faced with several competing theories, we then use the principle of parsimony to determine the better theory.

I don't see this a 'worthless'. Such a harsh word. But as I said, the end is the beginning of this entire discussion and it leaves us with "The Future is Probablity". I don't see what you mean by rational versus parsimonious. Isn't it rational to included the fact that Rinoa is the Final Sorceress and there is no successor? Isn't parsimonious thinking to naturally assume there will "definitely" be a successor?


R=U not only suffers from lack of evidence, but it is unreasonable when placed in context with the rest of the story, and is MUCH less parsiminous than other theories on Ultimecia's background. Thus although R=U is technically speaking as possible as Irvine = Ultimecia or whatever, it cannot be said to be a valid theory. At least not in the context of rational debate.[/QUOTE]


There is plenty of suggestive 'evidence' as stated in your FAQ, otherwise you wouldn't have written it. Just as people find otherwise suggestive counter-evidence to R-U.

You can not say that my questions are irrational, unreasonable, or worthless if it was the story itself that spawned such questions. And yes, these questions were before the R-U theory was known to me.

And as of lack of 'evidence' then where is the 'evidence' to assure that Rinoa will without a doubt find a successor?

Most people who assume there is nothing other than the Happy Ending say that she will definitely find a successor simply because that's the consensus of the plugged-in majority. Much like those that say "It has to be true, it was on TV." Or, "Our government would instigate 911! How dare you".

Basically, it comes down to taking people outside of their perspective box of the world. They don't like it. It's like getting unplugged from the matrix at a late age.

Despite how ugly the truth or probability of truth may seem it can still be the truth we don't want to picture.

Have we reached the point of neutrality where we can all at long last agree to disagree?

The only problem left here is that there is no definite yes or no because the uncertainty of future probability, and only those who say there is definitely a 'no' but definitely not a 'yes' or 'maybe'...

[jammi567]

Well, after reading all that bickering, i agree with you PAK, that it's best to agree to disagree. Because, in the end, we're never going to get a definate answer, certainly not 7 years after the game was released.

[Sir Bahamut]

I don't see this as 'worthless'. Such a harsh word.

It IS worthless though. If no one is wrong, no one is right, and the basis for a rational debate is destroyed. The point about rational debate is that we are supposed to rationally weigh up each point and asses the validity of any given theory. But if we do not assume that it is possible to asses the validity of a theory (which is what you suggest) this is impossible. Hence it renders this whole debate worthless. There's no way around it.


I don't see what you mean by rational versus parsimonious. Isn't it rational to included the fact that Rinoa is the Final Sorceress and there is no successor? Isn't parsimonious thinking to naturally assume there will "definitely" be a successor?

You must have misread me. I never stated anything about "parsimonious vs rational". It is NOT rational to state that it's a fact that Rinoa has no successor, because the game itself indicates otherwise in many ways. Rinoa herself states she will have a successor so her powers will one day reach Ultimecia, the Ultimania makes it clear that Rinoa must give up her powers before dying (which we know she must), and there are plenty of possible successors in the entire world of FF8.

It is not reasonable or parsimonious to assume Rinoa never has a successor, because it goes against the game and has no backing. Heck, according to the Ultimania it isn't even possible.


There is plenty of suggestive 'evidence' as stated in your FAQ, otherwise you wouldn't have written it. Just as people find otherwise suggestive counter-evidence to R-U.

The purpose of my FAQ was to show that virtually all the so-called "evidence" is NOT suggestive of R=U at all, and that they all make huge, shaky leaps in logic to establish R=U, when there are much more reasonable, simple steps of logic which demonstrate that the hints do not actually indicate R=U at all. In other words, the hints are not nearly good enough to count as meaningful evidence towards the theory.


You can not say that my questions are irrational, unreasonable, or worthless if it was the story itself that spawned such questions. And yes, these questions were before the R-U theory was known to me.

I've never been concerned with the validity of your "questions", only the manner in which you try to answer them.


And as of lack of 'evidence' then where is the 'evidence' to assure that Rinoa will without a doubt find a successor?

Sorry, but since the statement "Rinoa will not find a successor" is the outrageous claim (see above), you're the one who has to prove it. I don't have to prove anything, just like I don't have to prove that Squall is not a Moomba even if you believe he is.


Most people who assume there is nothing other than the Happy Ending say that she will definitely find a successor simply because that's the consensus of the plugged-in majority. Much like those that say "It has to be true, it was on TV." Or, "Our government would instigate 911! How dare you".

Basically, it comes down to taking people outside of their perspective box of the world. They don't like it. It's like getting unplugged from the matrix at a late age.

Appeal to motive, as Ryu would say. And correctly so. Stop acting as if you're only trying to "free us from the Matrix" and concentrate on showing us that it exists to begin with. Because you have not done so yet.

So I'm afraid I cannot agree to disagree. You have yet to show why R=U can be considered valid. All you have done is point out that it is possible. But "Squall is a Moomba" is also possible, yet I'm sure you would agree that is not valid.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

What proof do you need? She's the Final Sorceress. Ultimecia Reign is technically within their lifetime, there is no evidence of a Successor to Rinoa. What more does this make this valid to your judgement? You may as well try to convience me the validity that there is without a doubt a successor.

I really wish I could say more, but I can't... Maybe later. Till then, good journey.

[Sir Bahamut]

What proof do I need? Well, you could start by proving this:


She's the Final Sorceress.

Entirely unfounded. The Ultimania states a sorceress MUST give up her powers before dying, and since Rinoa has a regular lifespan, there MUST necessarily be a successor eventually. You have yet to demonstrate how there could NOT be a successor. You have also yet to give any good arguments as to why the sorceresses we fight in TC are not in the in the era between Rinoa and Ultimecia.


Ultimecia Reign is technically within their lifetime, there is no evidence of a Successor to Rinoa.

No, Ultimecia's reign is NOT within their lifetime. You have completely ignored Lagunas statement that "Ultimecia lives far in the future, where none of us can technically exist". That, the "many generations" and the several sorceresses we fight on the way to Ultimecia all demonstrate that Ultimecia clearly lives outside their lifetime.


You may as well try to convience me the validity that there is without a doubt a successor.

1. Laguna states explicitly that Ultimecia lives in a future where none of the party can technically exist, hence it's outside their lifetime.
2. If it's outside their lifetime, Rinoa must necessarily die of old age before Ultimecia's era.
3. As a sorceress, she MUST give up her powers before dying.
4. Hence, there must be a successor.

Simple.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Laguna states explicitly that Ultimecia lives in a future where none of the party can technically exist, hence it's outside their lifetime.

And this is Laguna... The man is a complete idiot. He makes George Bush at the very least look like a Sixth Grade Validictorian.

As for the time... Remember when we were talking about 'Dominos'? I already explained that. Why else would she need Ellone?

[Sir Bahamut]

Rinoa does not have an abnormally long lifespan due to being a sorceress, and there's hardly any reason to think she'll somehow grow to be 150 years old and still look as fit as Ultimecia.

And using timetravel to justify her becoming Ultimecia is ludicrous. Not only is it completely unfounded, but there's absolutely nothing indicating Rinoa is capable of it to begin with.

[jammi567]

Can you please each of you sum up your points, so i know what you're saying, as it takes a while to read many of your posts.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Rinoa does not have an abnormally long lifespan due to being a sorceress, and there's hardly any reason to think she'll somehow grow to be 150 years old and still look as fit as Ultimecia.

And using timetravel to justify her becoming Ultimecia is ludicrous. Not only is it completely unfounded, but there's absolutely nothing indicating Rinoa is capable of it to begin with.

I didn't use time travel as why Rinoa is Ultimecia... I explained the dominos earlier to explain TC and the Succession of Witches... Ugh! Y'know what... I'm gonna have to write another looooong explaination on this again... Oy! Comin' soon...

[Sir Bahamut]

Oh, sorry, getting things mixed up here it seems. But yes, you'll have to come with a good explanation, I think.

[RoxasLeonhart]

Rinoa does not have an abnormally long lifespan due to being a sorceress, and there's hardly any reason to think she'll somehow grow to be 150 years old and still look as fit as Ultimecia.

And using timetravel to justify her becoming Ultimecia is ludicrous. Not only is it completely unfounded, but there's absolutely nothing indicating Rinoa is capable of it to begin with.

I didn't use time travel as why Rinoa is Ultimecia... I explained the dominos earlier to explain TC and the Succession of Witches... Ugh! Y'know what... I'm gonna have to write another looooong explaination on this again... Oy! Comin' soon...
But rinoa will livelonger than her life span until she passes on her powers to someone or thing ...

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Oh, sorry, getting things mixed up here it seems. But yes, you'll have to come with a good explanation, I think.


LOL... Y'know... I think we're both getting a little lost... I'm taking a break for minute... LOL

[Ryushikaze]

But rinoa will livelonger than her life span until she passes on her powers to someone or thing ...

How? Sorceresses have normal human lifespans.

[jammi567]

Oh, sorry, getting things mixed up here it seems. But yes, you'll have to come with a good explanation, I think.


LOL... Y'know... I think we're both getting a little lost... I'm taking a break for minute... LOL
hensed why i asked whether your points could be summerised in a post or two.

[Sir Bahamut]

My point:

R=U is not implied by the game to be true. It lacks substantial, convincing evidence, which it sorely needs considering how bold a claim it is. It also requires a large amount of entirely unfounded and wild assumptions in order to even work to begin with. On top of that, the game itself readily offers a much simpler, more plausible background for Ultimecia far more parsimonious than R=U.

For these reasons, R=U cannot be considered a valid theory. Just because it is possible to conceive of a scenario which results in Rinoa becoming Ultimecia, the fact is that it has no real evidence backing it up, and so is no more valid than say, Squall = a Moomba.

[Laugh at face of Danger]

they said they'd meet in the flower fields if ever they got separated, and he was kinda in another dimension/time zone (australia, perhaps?). Probably been said before though, just posting

[jammi567]

My point:

R=U is not implied by the game to be true. It lacks substantial, convincing evidence, which it sorely needs considering how bold a claim it is. It also requires a large amount of entirely unfounded and wild assumptions in order to even work to begin with. On top of that, the game itself readily offers a much simpler, more plausible background for Ultimecia far more parsimonious than R=U.

For these reasons, R=U cannot be considered a valid theory. Just because it is possible to conceive of a scenario which results in Rinoa becoming Ultimecia, the fact is that it has no real evidence backing it up, and so is no more valid than say, Squall = a Moomba.
Ok, that's better. I can actually understand what you're saying now :).

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I think I better state my points...

Rinoa is the Final Sorceress at the end of the story, as we as far as we know it. And with Ultimecia (her possible and I use that term loosely because she may not be, future-self) still existing in the future Sorceress Rinoa is subjectable to possession at any time.

Ultimecia is possibly, technically within the reach of the characters lifespan of years and the Sorceress Power, having a self-preservation, mutates physical characteristics of it's hosts which may also include prevention of cosmetic aging...

It is uncertain that Rinoa will have a successor simply because it has been 'tradition' of the as it were.

I have to go now... running late..... But we'll be back with more after these messages....:D

[Ryushikaze]

In order to not waste space repeating Sir Bahamut, just echo his statements for myself.

Though to make a quick response to PAK (it doesn't matter if you don't respond to me. It's the points that matter) Ulti can only possess people by wasting her own time doing so. When you leave her time, she is dead, and has no more time available to possess Rinoa. If she were to possess Rinoa, it would have to have been at a time- to her- before she possessed Edea, wasting time she could have spent as far in the past as she could be. So it's possible, but it would require her to waste her own time by needlessly possessing someone who was years outside the limit of JME.

As for 'technically within the reach of the lifespan', no one in game thinks so, and even if the power prevented cosmetic aging, it couldn't prevent actual aging.

There has been at least one potential sorceress throughout history for as far back as history can recall. That this source would suddenly dry up across of a planet is a rather extraordinary claim. Especially since one can point to the succession of sorceresses (who could easily be the intervening sorceresses, as would seem to be suggested by the fact that the party is jumping forward in time as they fight them) as handy evidence of future sorceresses as well.

[sephirothishere]

i dont have the ultimania guide but what i thought the last time i played ff8 and finished it which was a long time ago but im playin it again to refresh my memory....oh yeh...i thought that ultimecia gave her powers to edea and edea gave her powers to rinoa and then rinoa didnt do anythin so she could be ultimecia....and isnt their somethin in the game that said that they had to be connected in order to give powers to each other...i dont remember....ill say more when i get to that part....

[Sir Bahamut]

i thought that ultimecia gave her powers to edea and edea gave her powers to rinoa and then rinoa didnt do anythin so she could be ultimecia

Rinoa doesn't pass on her powers within the span of the game, no, but she's only 17! She has a long life ahead of her which we never see, so the fact that we don't see her giving up her powers hardly means she never will.


and isnt their somethin in the game that said that they had to be connected in order to give powers to each other?

No.

[jammi567]

ok, seeing your points in a clear and ordally way, i have to agree with you Sir Bahamut and Ryushikaze.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

What you're saying is that Ultimecia's collective power of all the Sorceresses added to her own was passed to Edea whom then passed it to... (gasp) Rinoa... Oh my... Rinoa is Ultimecia... In a technical sense that is... But still this also means that the Final Sorceress could become the Ultimate Sorceress...

I would make better points, but I had a ROUGH night last night... Fun, but rough. Oy-vay!

[Ryushikaze]

What you're saying is that Ultimecia's collective power of all the Sorceresses added to her own was passed to Edea whom then passed it to... (gasp) Rinoa... Oh my... Rinoa is Ultimecia... In a technical sense that is...

By this logic, she's also Adel, Edea, and every sorceress ever, which would kinda make the sorceress power the best STD ever. Of course, it does assume she has all Sorceress power before eating space/time. And that begs the question of if she took their powers before eating space/time, why do the sorceresses have their powers to pass on?


But still this also means that the Final Sorceress could become the Ultimate Sorceress...

This does not follow from your above premise.


I would make better points, but I had a ROUGH night last night... Fun, but rough. Oy-vay!

Yes, it was the rough night, and not the indefensible position keeping you from making good points ::rolls eyes::
Besides, I find this defense far less convincing given that I got less than 5 hours of sleep last night.

[sephirothishere]

I find this defense far less convincing given that I got less than 5 hours of sleep last night

arent you the rebel....hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....5 hours...sounds like an early night to me....huhuhuhuhuuhuhuhuh...




Oy-vay
hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahah.....best film ever....

[jammi567]

What you're saying is that Ultimecia's collective power of all the Sorceresses added to her own was passed to Edea whom then passed it to... (gasp) Rinoa... Oh my... Rinoa is Ultimecia... In a technical sense that is...

By this logic, she's also Adel, Edea, and every sorceress ever, which would kinda make the sorceress power the best STD ever. Of course, it does assume she has all Sorceress power before eating space/time. And that begs the question of if she took their powers before eating space/time, why do the sorceresses have their powers to pass on?
Yeah, and why would she do TC, and the scan info says that she's absorbing sorceresses powers, as they're battling her.

[Ryushikaze]

I find this defense far less convincing given that I got less than 5 hours of sleep last night

arent you the rebel....hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....5 hours...sounds like an early night to me....huhuhuhuhuuhuhuhuh...

Was I ever trying to brag about this, or claim myself as a rebel? The point of bringing it up is simple, but apparently some people need simple things explained to them, so here goes. PAK's defense of 'rough night' is unconvincing, since I'm running on half a tank and I'm still managing to provide more substantial arguments.

And you might wannt get some sleep yourself. Sounds like you're going insane in your sleep deprivation.



Oy-vay
hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahah.....best film ever....

More than one flm has the words "Oi vey" in them. Which one are you referring to, pray tell?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I find this defense far less convincing given that I got less than 5 hours of sleep last night




Was I ever trying to brag about this, or claim myself as a rebel? The point of bringing it up is simple, but apparently some people need simple things explained to them, so here goes. PAK's defense of 'rough night' is unconvincing, since I'm running on half a tank and I'm still managing to provide more substantial arguments.

And you might wannt get some sleep yourself. Sounds like you're going insane in your sleep deprivation.


[QUOTE]Oy-vay
hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahah.....best film ever....

More than one flm has the words "Oi vey" in them. Which one are you referring to, pray tell?

See, it's this little petty $#!+ comments like that is what I'm talking about! This why I can't talk a petty punk like you. This $#!+ here is gonna get this thread closed. I'm sorry everyone else and you too Mods, but... Oh, you done pissed me off... real!

You a little bee-itch. I am so sick of your arrogance. I tried to ignore you but you couldn't leave well enough alone, could ya? WTF you mean, 'convincing'? Bee-itch is was the truth! I went out celebrating and drinking with my friends after they put on a play! This is the fuggin' reason I don't respect your funky @$$ in the first place. You act like ya know, but wasn't with me last night! You got lost in your own illusion that what you say is gold, but it's not gold, it's either brown or green, cause all you doin' is talkin' $#!+ !!! Act like you can't be wrong, well you was wrong about this!

I come home I try to make some comments and crash. You deeming what I say is a lie? How you gonna compare my tolerance and not know WTF I did last night? I swear, if I was in the same room with you right now... Yeah, I drank and I smoke... Clubbed and all that... I don't even give a **** what you did last night.

Maine! You got some serious ego problem acting like the lord of the board!

I told you to stop hitting the table before, so I'm gonna tell ya straight up! You get a STFU!

I've been ignoring you on this thread, talking mostly to SB, and you doin' $#!+ like this is what pisses me off. Why the F**K do I have to 'convince' YOU about me? Keep my name out ya mouth before I put my/your foot in!

I'll tell what some truth around here: You are egotistical, self-indulgent, delusional, arrogant, stuck-up, petty bee-itch! Always making retorts but no comments or posts of your own. Maine, STFU! Keep my name out ya mouth!

Now call me a lie, one more time! Bet!

[Ryushikaze]

Whoaly crap man. All I said was that your defense was 'unconvincing', as in, 'not persuasive', seeing as I too was out most late the night before, and still managed to be coherent. Chill the smeg out, man. And seriously, if you are at less than your full faculty, then you probably shouldn't be coming into a debate in the first place.

The rest of your post is really one of the saddest character attacks I've been witness to in awhile, and contains no rebuttal to speak of. Stop attacking the man, and attack the argument.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Whoaly crap man. All I said was that your defense was 'unconvincing', as in, 'not persuasive', seeing as I too was out most late the night before, and still managed to be coherent. Chill the smeg out, man. And seriously, if you are at less than your full faculty, then you probably shouldn't be coming into a debate in the first place.

The rest of your post is really one of the saddest character attacks I've been witness to in awhile, and contains no rebuttal to speak of. Stop attacking the man, and attack the argument.

Now who's lying? STFU!!!! And it ain't no act bee-itch! Cuz see there you go again claiming to know me! Maine, stop talking to me! I've been ignoring you but you keep on... You're too arrogant man, don't talk to me, cuz, I got nothing to say to you! And this ain't no 'debate' you just turn everything into it. Go master-debate yourself somewhere else!

[Ryushikaze]

I've never claimed to 'know you', I've only based my impressions of you on your past behaviour, and it is not a favorable impression, to be frank. Especially quite recently.
-Of course, if I'm claiming to 'know' you, the what of what you are doing to me with your character attacks?-

And personally, I don't care if you are ignoring me. Rebutting your points for the general populace to see is definitely enough, and one of several reasons I wish for this and all of my rational exchanges be conducted in a public forum.

And frankly, I think you're the only person who doesn't consider this to be a rational exchange of ideas- a debate.

Pharoh, I suggest that you take a step back, get a breather, perhaps a nap, and just try and calm down before you say anything more that you might regret, though to be honest, you've said plenty already.

Addendum:I'll be back later. I think I should skedaddle for a bit to let tempers cool and the debate to resume again.

[Jessweeee♪]

TRAVEL THROUGH TIME AND SPACE BY THE POWER OF LOVE AND FRIENDSHIP!!!
yah!!

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

TRAVEL THROUGH TIME AND SPACE BY THE POWER OF LOVE AND FRIENDSHIP!!!
yah!!

“Deflagrate muri tempi et intervallia!”

Whatever Captain Universal Planet. Ryu, I'm gonna calm down... Well, I'll try... You still wrong for call me by name like that... Apology would be a good start and admit you were lying.

I gonna try to work up a post after I get back from a party tonight or tomorrow night.

We'll be back after these messages...

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu, I'm gonna calm down... Well, I'll try...

Good. You seem to have been taking this entire exchange far too personally.


You still wrong for call me by name like that...

And I quote: "Squbba wha"? How does calling you by name put me in the wrong?


Apology would be a good start

If you want me to apologize to you, then apologize to me and everyone else you've strawmanned, ad hom'ed, or committed an appeal to motive against.


and admit you were lying.

And when, pray tell, was I lying?

[sephirothishere]

well anywho none of us know what happens except by process of elimination of whats impossible...and then whatevers left has to be right...but at the moment we have a few clashin ideas that could work but we werent there....this forum is for fun...CHILL

[jammi567]

Ryu, I'm gonna calm down... Well, I'll try...

Good. You seem to have been taking this entire exchange far too personally.


You still wrong for call me by name like that...

And I quote: "Squbba wha"? How does calling you by name put me in the wrong?


Apology would be a good start

If you want me to apologize to you, then apologize to me and everyone else you've strawmanned, ad hom'ed, or committed an appeal to motive against.


and admit you were lying.

And when, pray tell, was I lying?
can you talk and sort this out by PM, as it's boring us to death all the shouting, pointless name-calling etc. And you're cluttering up a thread that shouldn't be cluttering up with this s***. I'm suprised the mods haven't done anything about it yet.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Calm down shorty....

Okay, here we go... Time Compression was the attempted and failed achievement of the "Everlasting Moment".

Ultimecia was attempting to compress moments of the past to the present she resided in (ergo the "future" that most of you cling to) in order to find that moment that she would no longer be persecuted. (cue music to "One Moment In Time).

Essentially, she could only compress moments of the past, NOT the future because that was what she was trying to avoid. What sense would it make to include the moment of her defeat and demise? Hence she sought out Rinoa and Ellone so that she could gain access further back in time past Adel's rule and Sorceresses preceeding her. I find it strange and oddly convienant, that era of Rinoa was as far as she could go. But also, it's possibly because Sorceress Edea was her Successor that she was able or only able to access this time period.

Anyway, the Sorceresses that the Fated Children were destroying while HITCHING a ride through Time Compression were the very Sorceresses that Ultimecia was seeking in order to aquire their power to ultimately achieve Time Compression. With each Sorcersses the Fated Children slew Ultimecia OR Rinoa absorbed these fragments of Sorceress Power.

My explaniation of Time Compression goes as such...

Let's look at this like "Dominoes" all set up ready to be knocked over in succession...


I I I I I I I....

Now as time goes each on of these dominoes or 'events in time' will fall over in succession connecting or 'knocking over' the next series of events...


I I I I\\\\\\

Understand.

Ultimecia, probably somehow knowledgeable of the fated prophecy set by the Fated Children knew that she was the Final Sorceress and did not want to die...

I(Ultimecia's Death) I I - (attemp with Time Compression)- I I I \\\\\

Let me know if I'm not explaining this clearly enough.

The fact of the matter is, is that time is immutable. You can not change it. This is why she sought to not so much as change time but to escape it in the moment between an event in time.


And here leaves the questions... If all the Sorceresses that were defeated where the Sorcersses of the past... Where is Rinoa's successor? Exactly, there isn't one. It is possible that Rinoa will eventually become Ultimecia...

[Ryushikaze]

Calm down shorty....

Okay, here we go... Time Compression was the attempted and failed achievement of the "Everlasting Moment".

Just to get this out of the way, you are expected to support your interpretation with evidence, preferably in the form of in game quotations, screenshots, Ultimania, or similar materials.


Ultimecia was attempting to compress moments of the past to the present she resided in (ergo the "future" that most of you cling to) in order to find that moment that she would no longer be persecuted. (cue music to "One Moment In Time).

This flies directly in the face of her scan info, which states she wished to compress all time in order to remake reality as its ruler. She did seek to no longer be persecuted, but she definitely sought godhood as well.


Essentially, she could only compress moments of the past, NOT the future because that was what she was trying to avoid. What sense would it make to include the moment of her defeat and demise? Hence she sought out Rinoa and Ellone so that she could gain access further back in time past Adel's rule and Sorceresses preceeding her. I find it strange and oddly convienant, that era of Rinoa was as far as she could go.

I find it logical and perfectly ironic. Logical in that she's using a machine which must have a limit, and ironic in that her using it pissed off the past enough to make it come kill her.
Your first point -cannot absorb because she wishes to avoid it- is speculation, and assumes that if she absorbs any chunk of time, she is subject to her status in that given chunk of time. This would mean that should she absorb her teen years, she would go through purberty again, or if she absorbed her twilight years, she would become menopausal. Actually, following this logic, if she absorbed a time when she was not yet born, she would cease to have started being. It simply does not follow.


But also, it's possibly because Sorceress Edea was her Successor that she was able or only able to access this time period.

Or more realistically, it was the absolute limit of her machine and she wanted to be as far back as possible.


Anyway, the Sorceresses that the Fated Children were destroying while HITCHING a ride through Time Compression were the very Sorceresses that Ultimecia was seeking in order to aquire their power to ultimately achieve Time Compression. With each Sorcersses the Fated Children slew Ultimecia OR Rinoa absorbed these fragments of Sorceress Power.

Then the sorceress power should suddenly vanish for a gaps in history, as Squall et all do when they jump forward in time. It does not. It would also render her absorbing time rather moot if their power alone was her goal and Squall et all killing them gave it to her.


My explaniation of Time Compression goes as such...

Let's look at this like "Dominoes" all set up ready to be knocked over in succession...

I I I I I I I....

Now as time goes each on of these dominoes or 'events in time' will fall over in succession connecting or 'knocking over' the next series of events...

I I I I\\\\\\

Understand.

Ultimecia, probably somehow knowledgeable of the fated prophecy set by the Fated Children knew that she was the Final Sorceress and did not want to die...

I(Ultimecia's Death) I I - (attemp with Time Compression)- I I I \\\\\

Let me know if I'm not explaining this clearly enough.

Let me know when you reconcile this with her scan info, or support it with anything more than your assertion. Thus far, while easy enough to understand, this explanation has nil support.


The fact of the matter is, is that time is immutable. You can not change it. This is why she sought to not so much as change time but to escape it in the moment between an event in time.

Except her scan info says she was absorbing time in order to change it.


And here leaves the questions... If all the Sorceresses that were defeated where the Sorcersses of the past...

HINT: KEY WORD= IF. If not, the following is groundless. Any conclusion based on a conditional is only valid in the circumstance that said conditional is fulfilled. If they were instead the sorceresses of the future, which is just as valid- if not more so- than your conditional, then your big issue below is rendered entirely moot.


Where is Rinoa's successor?

::Randomly points at map:: Scranton.


Exactly, there isn't one. It is possible that Rinoa will eventually become Ultimecia...

It is only slightly less possible that Irvine or Selphie will become her. It is simply not plausible for the party to become Ultypoo.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Obviously, you do not understand time.

Snap your fingers. Go on do it.

[licence]

Obviously, you do not understand time.

Snap your fingers. Go on do it.

I have to say your explanation is easy to understand but its all speculation. If you can prove anything or bring up any proof that Rinoa did not die and have a successor then I might believe you slightly. So far you've just sat and typed in your own opinions on what Time Compression is.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Obviously, you do not understand time.

Snap your fingers. Go on do it.

I have to say your explanation is easy to understand but its all speculation. If you can prove anything or bring up any proof that Rinoa did not die and have a successor then I might believe you slightly. So far you've just sat and typed in your own opinions on what Time Compression is.

Okay, I believe that Time Compression is "The Everlasting Moment".

What do all of you think it is? How are my opinions less vailid than yours? Especially when you have not expressed you opinons on Time Compression?

And you'll see that pretty much no one knows what Compression is. Mostly because they don't understand how time works.

Snap your fingers.

[Serapy]

. he cant have died permantently because you see him in the ending sequence of the credits.
damm, that's what i was going to say. :)

In the last part of the ending squence, you've only noticed Squall at one point only, even after Rinoa waving her finger, familiar? A strange coincidence? Or maybe it was a dream in Rinoa's visions (seeing Squall after she blinked her finger)?

[Rocket Edge]

1 - What was the whole story behind that 'Old Key'?
2 - What was the giant crevasse about near Trabia (where Nida said the the dial in the Balamb Garden was going crazy when it got near or go over it),
3 - The out of place blue spots on somewhere on the Centra Plains (i never understood why there were there, but at the same time why would anyone put them there if it was for no use).

[DfKimera]

Answer to #2: That was Esthar and its illusionary barrier.

[Ryushikaze]

Obviously, you do not understand time.

At best, this is pot kettle black. At worst, this is you pretending to knowledge you do not have.


Snap your fingers. Go on do it.

Wiggle your big toe.

Alternatively, make substantial responses, not cryptic nonresponses.




Obviously, you do not understand time.

Snap your fingers. Go on do it.

I have to say your explanation is easy to understand but its all speculation. If you can prove anything or bring up any proof that Rinoa did not die and have a successor then I might believe you slightly. So far you've just sat and typed in your own opinions on what Time Compression is.

Okay, I believe that Time Compression is "The Everlasting Moment".

What do all of you think it is? How are my opinions less vailid than yours? Especially when you have not expressed you opinons on Time Compression?

Your opinions are less valid because there is in game evidence to state that Ulti's goal was actually to use time compression towards the end of becoming ruler of all reality.


And you'll see that pretty much no one knows what Compression is. Mostly because they don't understand how time works.

Compression is the act of - in matter- reducing the volume while keeping equivalent mass. Bringing time into the matter, it would be the act of bringing all points in time further towards a central period, possibly to a single temporal point. The exact mechanisms have never been detailed by S-E, but apparently Ulty thinks that achieving this ability will allow her to remake reality and become ruler over all.


Snap your fingers.

Wax on. Wax off.


1 - What was the whole story behind that 'Old Key'?
2 - What was the giant crevasse about near Trabia (where Nida said the the dial in the Balamb Garden was going crazy when it got near or go over it),
3 - The out of place blue spots on somewhere on the Centra Plains (i never understood why there were there, but at the same time why would anyone put them there if it was for no use).

The old key was merely a key, an item that existed only for that subquest, (unlocking the rest of the LP).

Df answered 2.

3 is that it was where- if I am not mistaken, the LP was originally taken from, hence the strange blue stone, like the LP.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

At best, this is pot kettle black. At worst, this is you pretending to knowledge you do not have.

No that would be you... You're insulting my knowledge again in comparision to yours which you believe to be superior to anyone else. You are simply making counter statements and not making any statements of your own.

I only said that you don't understand time because you claim that time would get 'pissed off'?

Now once again, you ridicule any statement I make, but push me on to offer more detail or 'evidence' just so you can make a counter post to feed your over-indulgent egotistical arrogance. You'd rather insult than indulge. Either stop questioning my or anyone's validity or make a statement of your own. Now, as I was saying...

... Snap your fingers.

[Ryushikaze]

No that would be you... You're insulting my knowledge again in comparision to yours which you believe to be superior to anyone else.

Really? And you're not insulting mine by saying "you don't understand time"? Oi.


You are simply making counter statements and not making any statements of your own.

...AND?


I only said that you don't understand time because you claim that time would get 'pissed off'?

Squbba wha? ::looks up:: "The past" was not literally referring to the time period, but the people in it. Oi.


Now once again, you ridicule any statement I make,

No, I rebut any statement you make. Mockery only becomes involved when your contributions begin to lack substance.


but push me on to offer more detail or 'evidence' just so you can make a counter post to feed your over-indulgent egotistical arrogance.

Firstly, that's a gorram appeal to motive. Secondly, without any evidence, there is no gorram reason to take your proposition seriously at all.



You'd rather insult than indulge. Either stop questioning my or anyone's validity or make a statement of your own. Now, as I was saying...

1- Bahamut has said this time and time again, but you cannot come into this sort of thing and NOT expect your claim to be examined for flaws and inconsistencies.
2- Why are you so hung up on me having a position of my own? I seriously do not need a position in order to respond to anyone else's.
3- appeal to motive.


... Snap your fingers.

Do or do not. There is no try.

Seriously, if you have a point, make it. Avoid rhetorical BS like this.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Okay, once again, you cut up my post and only responded to that which you wanted to, and left out the relevant material that answered your questions and retorts. You cut up my entire post for your own benefit. I'm not here to argue with you. Your arrogance is so blinding you can't even see it. Which is why I and practically no one here can have a rational 'debate' or disscussion with you. You won't even participate, but just decapitate anything I say... You say I have to prove my points, but you have none of your own.

Now, you're the only one responding, (regretfully), but, I hope you understand that I am not speaking only to you, Ryushikaze, when I say...

Snap your fingers...

[Ryushikaze]

Okay, once again, you cut up my post and only responded to that which you wanted to, and left out the relevant material that answered your questions and retorts. You cut up my entire post for your own benefit.

The entire content of your reply was contained in the above, and in this response. I do not snip important content from your posts without mentioning that I do so, and it's not like anyone can't bloody check themselves to see if I did so or not. Not only that, but I do not "cut your posts up" for my own benefit. I stop at each 'point' and address them. Which is a lot better than can be said of you, who has completely ignored the rebuttals and responses of people over, put words in my mouth, and generally whine and moaned this entire thread through. Stop making Ad homs about my point by point response and try firing a salvo right back instead of complaining all the time.


I'm not here to argue with you.

Nor I you. You simply happen to be the current hypothesizer, and your claims are simply too outrageous to be allowed to stand without support. Were another person fronting these same arguments, or different but similarly implausible points, I would rebut them as well, such as I did with Viator, FE, and other people elsewhere.


Your arrogance is so blinding you can't even see it. Which is why I and practically no one here can have a rational 'debate' or disscussion with you. You won't even participate, but just decapitate anything I say... You say I have to prove my points, but you have none of your own.

Y'know, the most irritating part about the above paragraph is that you are once again kvetching about being peer reviewed and are harping again on how I do not hold any points, when any points or positions I do or do not hold are completely smegging irrelevant in this entire process.


Now, you're the only one responding, (regretfully), but, I hope you understand that I am not speaking only to you, Ryushikaze, when I say...

Snap your fingers...

And I hope you, and everyone else will understand that ending on cheap rhetoric is no substitute for an explained point. Of course, did it ever occur to you that I'm the only one responding because perhaps I'm the only one patient enough?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

It's only irritating because it's true. Now either do one of two simple things listen and learn, or...

You only have patience to insult instead of indulge. You may be the only one replying, but even though I'm not addressing you yourself, you can not do something so simple as to...

Snap... your... fingers.

[Sir Bahamut]

I just want to say that I have nothing to add to what Ryu is saying. Just so that's clear.

[Skyblade]

It's only irritating because it's true. Now either do one of two simple things listen and learn, or...

You only have patience to insult instead of indulge. You may be the only one replying, but even though I'm not addressing you yourself, you can not do something so simple as to...

Snap... your... fingers.

I snapped my fingers, PAK. Was that supposed to make your explanation suddenly make sense? It didn't work.

Your ideas have been disproven time and again, and you still have no evidence supporting them.

And Ryu is right, he is the only one responding because he is the only one patient enough. But you should know that the rest of us support his position, not yours.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

It's only irritating because it's true. Now either do one of two simple things listen and learn, or...

You only have patience to insult instead of indulge. You may be the only one replying, but even though I'm not addressing you yourself, you can not do something so simple as to...

Snap... your... fingers.

I snapped my fingers, PAK. Was that supposed to make your explanation suddenly make sense? It didn't work.

Your ideas have been disproven time and again, and you still have no evidence supporting them.

And Ryu is right, he is the only one responding because he is the only one patient enough. But you should know that the rest of us support his position, not yours.

Huh. Such attitude towards me... Why so angry. It doesn't matter... Now let's continue.


Now snap them again.

[Skyblade]

It's only irritating because it's true. Now either do one of two simple things listen and learn, or...

You only have patience to insult instead of indulge. You may be the only one replying, but even though I'm not addressing you yourself, you can not do something so simple as to...

Snap... your... fingers.

I snapped my fingers, PAK. Was that supposed to make your explanation suddenly make sense? It didn't work.

Your ideas have been disproven time and again, and you still have no evidence supporting them.

And Ryu is right, he is the only one responding because he is the only one patient enough. But you should know that the rest of us support his position, not yours.

Huh. Such attitude towards me... Why so angry. It doesn't matter... Now let's continue.


Now snap them again.

*Snaps fingers again. Cue glorious revelation music*

Oh, I see. You've been right all along. We've just been total idiots who don't understand why we should accept a bunch of nonsensical assumptions as a reasonable idea. The finger snapping really helped, thanks.

Moron.

Ryu, you deal with him. He's not even trying to argue any more, he's just being an idiot.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Huh. Such attitude towards me... Why so angry. It doesn't matter... Now let's continue.


Now snap them again.


*Snaps fingers again. Cue glorious revelation music*

Oh, I see. You've been right all along. We've just been total idiots who don't understand why we should accept a bunch of nonsensical assumptions as a reasonable idea. The finger snapping really helped, thanks.

Moron.

Ryu, you deal with him. He's not even trying to argue any more, he's just being an idiot.

Once again, we've stooped to needless insults and name calling. I haven't insulted you or even talked to you directly, so I don't understand why this unprovoked attack... I did nothing for you to justify your actions. I won't even bother insulting you back... But I will pity you.

See, here we are at the point that I don't understand why I'm being attacked like this. I merely made a simple request and somehow...

Look here Johnny (Skyblade) Are you so easily frustrated that you're giving up? Huh... So you're sicking your "dog/big brother" on me. ROFL!!!! That's great, but anyway...

I suppose we'll just have to start over again... Any volunteers? Anyone?

Snap your fingers.

[Skyblade]

Huh. Such attitude towards me... Why so angry. It doesn't matter... Now let's continue.


Now snap them again.


*Snaps fingers again. Cue glorious revelation music*

Oh, I see. You've been right all along. We've just been total idiots who don't understand why we should accept a bunch of nonsensical assumptions as a reasonable idea. The finger snapping really helped, thanks.

Moron.

Ryu, you deal with him. He's not even trying to argue any more, he's just being an idiot.

Once again, we've stooped to needless insults and name calling. I haven't insulted you or even talked to you directly, so I don't understand why this unprovoked attack...

I suppose we'll just have to start over again... Anyone?

Snap your fingers.

I consider it an insult that you sit there mocking us with ridiculously nonsensical commands. I am further insulted by the fact that you have yet to even attempt a rebuttal at any point that has been presented against you in the entire thread. And I am also insulted by your constant attitude that implies that we are all biased idiots who would recognize the truth if it were to slap us in the face, when in reality you have presented us with nothing that deserves any recognition at all.

However, since all discussion has ended, and you aren't even attempting to argue your point anymore (no, telling people to snap their fingers isn't arguing), I'd say this thread has served its purpose and is degenerating into meaningless flaming. So I'll warn the thread now and try to save us all from bans.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

We're done here. You do NOT insult other members. Ever. It's a video game for chrissake, not the end of the world.