Tidus' Disputed Existence (Possible Spoliers)

[Dynast-Kid]

This is a question that some of you will find stupid,or it is explained in the game.

Okay,is Tidus really a dream?

I mean,did he actually exist in Zanarkand?I know that Dream Zanarkand was a recreation of the original Zanarkand,but was Tidus truly a figment of the fayth's imagination?

Like,is it possible that he might have actually lived in original Zanarkand?

So,my question is:
Did Tidus actually exist at one point in time,or was he the fayth's creation?

[Shiny]

No, because the Fayth cleary said he was a dream thought up from Zanarkand's past. We know from FFX-2 that Tidus was most likely thought up from Shuyin's past. So, he would not have existed in the real Zanarkand.

[guffman]

wait, was shuyin made up? I thought that he existed. And if he existed wouldent Tidus have existed also? I unno its been awhile since i played X2.

[farplaner]

wait, was shuyin made up? I thought that he existed. And if he existed wouldent Tidus have existed also? I unno its been awhile since i played X2.

Shuyin existed. His existence doesn't imply the existence of Tidus. Tidus' existence is probably the Fayth's interpretation of Shuyin (at least in appearance)...or something...

[Albel]

And the Zanarkand with Tidus in it shows Jacht as sin, which would make him about 1000 years old.

[jammi567]

And the Zanarkand with Tidus in it shows Jacht as sin, which would make him about 1000 years old.
No-one's a thousand years old. Jecht as Sin is only 10 years old.

[Helios]

wait wait wait, I think the real question here, is how in the hell Jecht GOT to Spira. I mean, they didn't reveal all this to him (by they I mean the fayth) about him being a dream?

[Dynast-Kid]

I think Jecht and Auron rode on Sin's back or something like that...Will someone knowledgeble about the subject explain this to us!

[jammi567]

wait wait wait, I think the real question here, is how in the hell Jecht GOT to Spira. I mean, they didn't reveal all this to him (by they I mean the fayth) about him being a dream?
The faith in Bevell might've. But that's a good question.

[LunarWeaver]

Tavrobel put the smack down on this whole situation in some thread or another about Zanarkand and Tidus. I tried to dig it up, but I'm too lazy. I'm sure it's around somewhere though. If you find it, you will be bestowed ultimate FFX clarity.

[Helios]

I think Jecht and Auron rode on Sin's back or something like that...Will someone knowledgeble about the subject explain this to us!

I don't think so, because Auron actually existed, not a dream like Jecht.

EDIT: Heres the link to which its all answered I think
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=89616
But no the Jecht question it would seem
I think I should start a different topic about Jecht getting to Zanarkand

[Dynast-Kid]

Tavrobel put the smack down on this whole situation in some thread or another about Zanarkand and Tidus. I tried to dig it up, but I'm too lazy. I'm sure it's around somewhere though. If you find it, you will be bestowed ultimate FFX clarity.

Tavvy is a genius,a bit cocky,but genius nonetheless.

He is the beacon of light in the KH Forums.

Bow to Tavrobel,HE IS GOD!
:bow:

Btw,thanks for the link Helios!

[Tavrobel]

This is a question that some of you will find stupid,or it is explained in the game.

Okay,is Tidus really a dream?

I mean,did he actually exist in Zanarkand?I know that Dream Zanarkand was a recreation of the original Zanarkand,but was Tidus truly a figment of the fayth's imagination?

Like,is it possible that he might have actually lived in original Zanarkand?

So,my question is:
Did Tidus actually exist at one point in time,or was he the fayth's creation?
If you want evidence, the only thing you can do is to go back into the game plot, and put the pieces together yourself. Or ask those who are knowledgeable on the subject. Seems like me or another person explains this around once a week on average.

I'm gonna answer this as plain and simple as can be.

Yes.

Yes and yes.

Absolutely not.

Yes, and no. He exists because he is a creation; the technical term of "existence" is different in FFX.

I believe I answered this question once for the GOE when he asked questions concerning the game plot.

[Rosenti]

umm.. i beileve tidus got warped threw time, he does really exsist, he not a dream, thats stupid.

[Tavrobel]

I couldn't even begin to tell you what is wrong with that statement.

[BG-57]

It might help if you think of Dream Zanarkand as a giant Aeon, the product of the collective unconscious of counless Fayth entombed on Mt. Gagagzet. Like any Aeon, DZ exists in a solid state of being as long as the Summoner continues to summon (which Yu-Yevon has been doing for 1000 years).

Unlike a regular summonable Fayth, where a single corresponing Aeon appears, the makeup of DZ has shifted and evolved over the millenium as people are born and die. So each individual in DZ is an expression of the collective dreams of the Fayth, rather than their individual dreams.

There's nothing to suggest Tidus has Shuyin's soul, although no doubt many Fayth knew Shuyin personally and his appearance was the model for Tidus. However, there's nothing to suggest that it was a deliberate act on the part of the Fayth.

I think Tidus existed even after the Fayth woke up, just in a non-coporeal state.

[Shadowdeathrose]

wait, was shuyin made up? I thought that he existed. And if he existed wouldent Tidus have existed also? I unno its been awhile since i played X2.


No the fayth dreamnt tidus up in in shuyins image, becuase of what he was before he began to hate yu yevon, then he turned and started to hate the world. the fayth brought him back as a dream, tidus, tidus was created as The a kind a playfull being that shuyin once was. but in ffx-2 the fayth re dream him so yuna and tidus will be happy thus becoming real

[No.78]

I reckon that now Shuyin is gone, that's why Tidus could come back. Or something...

[Rosenti]

Is it so hard to just say, Sin took him through time?

first off we barely know anything about what Sin can do. Saying he wasn't really there, makes everything in that game feel so VOID and STUPID

even dough im probaly wrong..

[Arvick]

tidus is real sin is 1000 years old bicos lady yunalesca has defeat sin like a 1000 years a go and then whas zanarkand not s long dead!!!
and i think sin is a thing that you teleport to the future.

[BG-57]

Is it so hard to just say, Sin took him through time?

first off we barely know anything about what Sin can do. Saying he wasn't really there, makes everything in that game feel so VOID and STUPID

even dough im probaly wrong..

Although Sin certainly has mysterious powers time travel has not been established as one of them. And the game and official guides claim that Tidus traveled in space, but not in time. True, he spent most of the game convinced that he had traveled 1000 years in the future, but DZ and Zanarkand ruins coexist on Spira, in different places.


tidus is real sin is 1000 years old bicos lady yunalesca has defeat sin like a 1000 years a go and then whas zanarkand not s long dead!!!
and i think sin is a thing that you teleport to the future.

A new Sin is born with every defeat by a Summoner's Final Aeon, so technically the current Sin is only a decade or so old. It serves to protect Yu Yevon, who has existed for 1000 years continuosuly, but this Sin is formed around a core of Braska's Final Aeon, who of course is Jecht.

Again there is no official word from Square that Sin can travel through time, so it's speculation for now.

[No.78]

Tidus didnt exist 1000 years ago, Shuyin did instead.

[Tavrobel]

Shuyin did instead was already there 1000 years in the past. Tidus didnt exist 1000 years ago only exists because of Shuyin's DZ template.

Fixed.

[No.78]

Eh, yeah...

[Rosenti]

who is shuyin? no seriosly who? ive completed ff x, is shuyin from x-2 or something?

[BG-57]

who is shuyin? no seriosly who? ive completed ff x, is shuyin from x-2 or something?

I know we don't need spoiler tags here, but you really shouldn't know the details about Shuyin unless you have no intention of ever playing FFX-2.

Shuyin is the lover of a Summoner/Singer named Lenne from the Zanarkand of 1000 years ago. He tried to save her by activating a doomsday weapon called Vegnagun. He failed and they both died. Forced by the Pyreflies to endlessly relive that traumatic death, he plots to destroy all of Spira. Yuna is somehow connected to Lenne and he seems convinced that she's Lenne, while Yuna wonders if he's Tidus or not.

[ama124]

Yuna is connected to lenne by her songstress dressphere. That was the dress that lenne wore and i believe when yuna wears it, she feels lenne's feelings and stuff. Its sort of hard to explain.

[No.78]

Probly cos lenne died whilst wearing it, and her pyreflies like infused to the dressphere... Because her work on spira was not done, or something...

(cos she needed to de-insanify shuyin :P)

[Mirage]

To sum it up.
Know those Aeons? They exist, right? They can hit monsters, be hurt by monsters, etc. They exist physically in Spira. Yuna summons the Aeons, using the power of the Fayth of that particular Aeon
Likewise, Yu-Yevon uses all those Fayth on Mt. Gagazet to summon Dream Zanarkand, and all its citizen. That's how Auron can exist in Dream Zanarkand. He walks around on a huge Aeon. That's possible because Aeons actually exist physically, like I talked about earlier. In the same way, it's possible for a part of that aeon to get away from Dream Zanarkand, and walk around physically around the rest of Spira. This is what Tidus is doing.
Tidus was carried from Dream Zanarkand (an actual physical location somewhere in Spira), to Baaj Temple. He didn't travel 1000 years through time.
Hope this explains it.

[No.78]

But it was as THOUGH he had travelled 1000 years through time, because the dream zanarkand is virtually a replica of zanarkand as it was 1000 years ago...


Did that need spoiler tags? HATE ME

[Tavrobel]

Actually, no, it's not.

DZ time moves at the exact same speed as Spira (give or take a few microseconds). This means that just as Spira has survived for 1000 years after Sin, so too has DZ grown and evolved. At the time of its creation, DZ might have been nearly identical to the real Zanarkand, but just as Yunalesca says, how do you expect to keep an eye on everyone all at the same time? Just as it is in witness statements, things can vary quite differently. Over the course of time after it was established, the people in DZ grew and evolved; they loved, died, did what they do. After a certain point, Tidus was created, probably based on a recycled Shuyin template.

Is Tidus the same as Shuyin? No, he isn't. The two are quite different, despite their tendencies to be incredibly selfish when it comes to their women.

Yu Yevon can sometimes reset the city, incase something goes bad, but this changes very little.

[Rosenti]

But it was as THOUGH he had travelled 1000 years through time, because the dream zanarkand is virtually a replica of zanarkand as it was 1000 years ago...


Did that need spoiler tags? HATE ME


im confused, some say that Tidus didn't exsist 1000 years ago or something? whow as star bliztball player then? was it all a dream.. i hate not knowing this, since Tidus is cool. I think, but i prefer Auron.

[BG-57]

It's common for people to think Tidus travelled through time because he spends most of the game convinced that he did. You could sum up Tidus' reasoning as follows:

1) I'm from Zanarkand.

2) The Zanarkand ruins in Spira was destroyed 1000 years ago.

3) Therefore, I'm from the Zanarkand ruins and I traveled 1000 years in time.

However, his logic was faulty since he assumed his Zanarkand had to exist in the same place as the Zanarkand ruins. Since the ruins have been there for 1000 year time travel seemed to be the only way to explain it. The ruins of Zanarkand are clearly not DZ though since it's ringed by mountains and DZ is on an island completely surrounded by water.

So DZ exists in a separate location in Spira. It coexists in time with the present-day ruins but not in space. That permited Tidus to simply travel from DZ to elsewhere in Spira via Sin.

As to the appearances, the past view of Zanarkand that Seymour shows to the group in Guadosalam does look tecnologically advanced as present-day DZ. Since Spira was at it's technological peak 1000 years ago this is not suprising. However, the rest of Spira reverted to a less technological state while DZ maintained the pre-Sin technology levels.

So in summary, DZ coexists with the rest of Spira (including Zanarkand ruins), but completely isolated. Shuyin is from the old pre-Sin Zanarkand of 1000 years ago while Tidus is from present-day DZ.

[Renmiri]

It might help if you think of Dream Zanarkand as a giant Aeon, the product of the collective unconscious of counless Fayth entombed on Mt. Gagagzet. Like any Aeon, DZ exists in a solid state of being as long as the Summoner continues to summon (which Yu-Yevon has been doing for 1000 years).

Unlike a regular summonable Fayth, where a single corresponing Aeon appears, the makeup of DZ has shifted and evolved over the millenium as people are born and die. So each individual in DZ is an expression of the collective dreams of the Fayth, rather than their individual dreams.

There's nothing to suggest Tidus has Shuyin's soul, although no doubt many Fayth knew Shuyin personally and his appearance was the model for Tidus. However, there's nothing to suggest that it was a deliberate act on the part of the Fayth.

I think Tidus existed even after the Fayth woke up, just in a non-coporeal state.

Good guesses, all of them. This is exactly what Square Enix book on FFX and X2 - Ultimania Omega, Battle and Scenario say :D

Look for pmog's translations at GameFAQ or for Ryu Kaze's translations at IGN and Wikipedia. Ryu just finished (july) some about Shuyin that refer to just that.

Also, DZ is indeed located in an island - see proof below - so Jecht, Tidus and Auron used Sin to get in and out


Since Spira was at it's technological peak 1000 years ago this is not suprising. However, the rest of Spira reverted to a less technological state while DZ maintained the pre-Sin technology levels.
That is the only nit I have. Ultimania books put the peak of technology at 3,000 years ago. Ultimania doesn't tell us what happened between 3,000 BG (before game) and 1,000 BG to make it decline. We do know what happened to make Spira so empty and devoid of technolgy on FFX: Sin and Yevon's Church both made sure that all big cities and big machina were obliterated. At Wikipedia we even have that Yu Yevon made Sin search for technology to destroy, as he imagined that Bevelle would be the main danger to his Dream Zanarkand plan. Do check the FFX and X2 pages at Wikipedia. Both of them were among the very few game pages selected as "Featured Article", i.e. "the best in Wiki". The FFX page was even front paged on July 19, 2006, the 5th anniversary of FFX's release :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_X
http://ffproject.net/forumwiki/images/thumb/800px-Dzproof.jpg

[Tavrobel]

Good guesses, all of them. This is exactly what Square Enix book on FFX and X2 - Ultimania Omega, Battle and Scenario say :D

I have serious doubts that those were guesses, and not information he had already learned previously.

[BG-57]

Most of what I know about the games is from playing them, reading the strategy guides and participating in this forum.

Generally anything I say that includes 'I think...' or 'I feel...' is my personal opinion. Anything that is a plain statement is what I understand to be factual, to the best of my knowledge.

Anyway...I'm just trying to clarify some of the more intricate and confusing elements of FFX and FFX-2. Which isn't easy. :D

[Renmiri]

Well, good info then BG-57! :D

Tavrobel - I'll let you know when I scan the timeline, right now my scanner is not so good. But here is a timeline I did for the Final Fantasy Wiki
(http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page)
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/images/2/27/TIMELINE.jpg

[Tavrobel]

Tavrobel - I'll let you know when I scan the timeline, right now my scanner is not so good. But here is a timeline I did for the

I couldn't care less at this point, to be honest. After some time to reflect on the situation, don't bother, since it makes you go out of your way, and out of mine, and really, we both know exceedingly well the subject at debate (both topic and supporting facts).

I am in disfavor of more FFX history, and you support it. What else is there needed to be said?

Ohh, and since I love to nitpick, it's Yocun and Gandof in the NA version. I realize that you probably translated the names before the release (or whatever the situation was).

[Renmiri]

Ohh, and since I love to nitpick, it's Yocun and Gandof in the NA version.
Opps! :-\ Thanks, I corrected it at FF Wiki (hence it shows corrct here now).


I realize that you probably translated the names before the release (or whatever the situation was).
Don't I wish! I don't speak japanese, unfortunately. It was just a run of the mill typo...


I couldn't care less at this point, to be honest. After some time to reflect on the situation, don't bother, since it makes you go out of your way, and out of mine, and really, we both know exceedingly well the subject at debate (both topic and supporting facts).

I am in disfavor of more FFX history, and you support it. What else is there needed to be said?
TBH, the 3,000 years ago entry on the UG intrigues me, but I value more learning the correct facts than having Spira conform to my ideas of it, so I am open for a smaller history.

In this case, I am pretty positive, because 3 different people have translated it independently. Hikoto (the link you saw), Ryu Kaze and pmog (http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gentopic.php?board=2000008) from Gamefaq. Do look at her entire thread she has tons of good stuff. Ryu has some good X2 stuff (http://faqs.ign.com/articles/702/702971p1.html) translated too

I intend to scan my Ultimanias to put on my site, so it's no bother to scan a page for you. It just takes time to get to it. After the last PB&J and crayon stains on the scanner glass I had to move the scanner waaay out of the way from my kids, and unfortunately in a very high shelf that is a pain in the neck to get too ;)