Animals are people too! ...?

[bipper]

Animal Rights... its a war folks:


"UCLA neuroscience professor Dario Ringach, known for his contributions to our understanding of how the visual system processes information, has been forced to give up his experiments by the actions of animal-rights extremists. Although he and his family had endured harassment and vandalization by animal-rights activists for years, Ringach reconsidered after extremists tried to firebomb a colleague's home and accidentally left their Molotov cocktail on an elderly neighbor's doorstep. Ringach sent an email to animal activist groups saying, 'You win... please don't bother my family anymore.'"

Just a funny story, that is obviously wrong. I am wondering how you all feel about animal rights; animal testing, animal cruelty, factory farming, and other controversial treatments of animals?

[Christmas]

BAD BAD. :(

[Dignified Pauper]

Animals have the rights expressly given to them by humans as a dominant species. Their fate is our will, as thus it should be.

[Levian]

I'll let Anaisa speak on my behalf.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

I´m studying veterenary medicine so my point of view might be kind of extreme but...

I think that a lot of the activities being held in animals should be punished with jail.

Most research centers have terrible conditions and animals always end up suffering.

So all those so called "researchers" who inject animals with all kind of substances eventually killing them should face death penalty.

[Araciel]

animals are food...all medical science is based on research done on animals or people, so i would choose to do it on animals rather than humans....maybe to some that makes me a monster but they would be grouped in with the ALF or PETA in my eyes, and THOSE groups are insane

ps bipper stop reading the news!

[bipper]

The article was several days old, its not news then is it foo :p

[Araciel]

you clever bastard....read on then

the animal rights argument is fun but it gets pretty emotional, because that's the basis of their problem with my eating and medical habits

[Jebus]

This reminds me of a story I heard a few years ago about some animal rights activists opening the cages at a slaughterhouse and getting trampled to death by the pigs.

Anyway, as far as necessary research goes, I'd rather it be done on humans who've given consent. They're a far better indicator of human reactions and stuff, given the fact that they are humans.

However, I find animals rather tasty, so, I guess PETA still hates me.

[Araciel]

humans giving consent...never thought about that...i would never, i'm not going to give my body to science, but only because of pressure from my family

[Peegee]

Animals obviously aren't even sentient. We can do with them as we will. /sarcasm

Obviously animals can react to pain stimuli and thus have some degree of rights, assuming we do not have a human justification to not grant them rights.

Carrying on that train of thought, I am a firm believer that we should burn down all the plants in the world. Your counter argument, unless you agree with my moral stance that plants have just as much right to not being eaten as animals, is that we need them for our own automation.

Thus the only reason we shouldn't burn down rainforests is because plants serve a purpose of maintaining human life.

[Araciel]

I´m studying veterenary medicine so my point of view might be kind of extreme but...

I think that a lot of the activities being held in animals should be punished with jail.

Most research centers have terrible conditions and animals always end up suffering.

So all those so called "researchers" who inject animals with all kind of substances eventually killing them should face death penalty.

case in point: emotionalism if it weren't for those 'so-called "researchers"' we probably wouldn't be alive to have this discussion, since so many diseases were defeated with the knowledge gained from animal testing

[Old Manus]

I'd rather it be done on humans who've given consent.As opposed to humans who haven't?

[Araciel]

well of all the mad scientists in the world...

[Peegee]

That's an excellent moral question and grounds for another post. Too bad I'm at work and posting something like this with constant interruptions results in a haphazardly written and incoherently attempt at sparking discussion.

Just in case no thread is created, I find utilitarianism to be a terrible philosophy because it can justify doing anything for the sake of a future, yet undetermined, and thus undefined result.

In other words, we can do whatever we want, claiming that tommorow's another day where the results will be gleaned.

(obviously not what utilitarianism is about, but I like doing this to spark convo)

[Araciel]

well in my general example :D, (medical research to fight disease) often, the cause of the problem is the cause of the solution. to find a vaccine, a disease has to exist, and that is what spurs the scientists into motion, to stop at nothing within the bounds of the law, and sometimes without, to save or enhance human life. i agree with the former, the saving.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

You haven´t seen the conditions in which animals are kept...

[Cz]

Animal testing is hardly an ideal way of conducting scientific research, but the fact is that it has proven incredibly useful to the advancement of medical science. It's preferable, where possible, to conduct such tests on consenting humans, but if that's not possible then I'm willing to accept that animal testing as a reasonable alternative.

[Araciel]

You haven´t seen the conditions in which animals are kept...

sure i have. it's horrible. i have also seen the 'factories' that my big macs come from, but i still eat them when i visit the states.

(we have different laws up here about food processing, not extremely different, mind you)

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

But don´t you think that those type of animals should be given the max confort possible...in my country there are already laws about this matter i suppose that there aren´t many in america.

[Araciel]

i dont know that there aren't many, i don't know how it all works down there either...what i do know is that the animals are treated as what they eventually become. sure its not fair, but i choose to not get arrested for firebombing these facilities

[Madame Adequate]

I don't have any particular problem with using animals for our ends, on the proviso that cruelty is avoided where possible.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

But did you know that eventually the fact that animals are badly treated in such facilities ends up causing defects to the meat that you end up eating?

Even if it is for that solo reason animals deserve to be kept in good conditions.

[bipper]

I don't have any particular problem with using animals for our ends, on the proviso that cruelty is avoided where possible.

Of course, I agree with Milf. I may GOE a little further since I think that if a bull is to be raised as beef, he be given a life first, and grow to reach maturety. The animal should eat and excersize more regularily. This cuts down on so much waste on the meat, and lowers the need for damn antibiotics. It is better all arround. Neat system - treat the animal good, get good meat.

Testing is the same to me. If the animals are treated fairly, then I do not see much of a porblem with it. I do not beleive in purposedly infecting animals with painful and terminal diseases though.

bipper

[Araciel]

yeah i know about defects...mad cow is one

doesn't stop me from shopping at the grocery store...because thats just easier than going to a farm and buying a side of beef from a cow that had a good life living in a fenced in pasture where it was still a slave, just a more well-treated one

edit...this is why i love hunting, good meat, the animal had a good life, lived free and everything...you think PETA would support that..

[your.mind.is.on.the.line]

This could be debated for hours. This is one of those things that everyone differs atleast somewhat in opinion. While there's proof for some animals being 'humanlike' (having emotions and societies), such as elephants(this concept alone could be discussed for hours). It is also true that humans are omnivorous-we need to eat meat (so being a vegan will just rot your brain). You could debate that it's wrong to torture animals, or it's wrong to eat them. You can say that animals are beneath us. My opinion isn't simple-but to outline it: Human's eat meat, kill them but use all of the animal, appreciate the lives of the animals you eat.. I don't like the idea of hunting for sport. I support wearing fur (going back to the idea of using all of the animal). Poaching is wrong, and animal testing is wrong. In the end there's only so far you can go....Cat's are known to tortue a mouse to make it scream and then once it's dead(or almost dead), just leave it. Any extreme is just that: extreme and is likely to be taken too far.

[Madame Adequate]

Once we get good genetic technologies (Ironically, this will entail a great deal of animal testing) we'll be able to abolish the use of animals in our meat production industries, and just grow the meat itself without any of those silly organs or the like attached. Much more efficient, cheaper, easier, and with no moral questions attached whatsoever.

[Araciel]

yeah but then someone would pipe up and say 'you're mistreating that animal DNA'

[your.mind.is.on.the.line]

Once we get good genetic technologies (Ironically, this will entail a great deal of animal testing) we'll be able to abolish the use of animals in our meat production industries, and just grow the meat itself without any of those silly organs or the like attached. Much more efficient, cheaper, easier, and with no moral questions attached whatsoever.
Here ye, here ye. Can't wait! (just not too happy about the testing in the meantime :mad: , but it could be worth it)

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Hunting for sport is wrong they should play paint ball instead. It´s a return to primative nature like in London during the XVIII or whatever they putted dogs fighting bears just for pleasure.

If you´re going to kill an animal at least try to make it as painless and quick as possible.

[Roto13]

I don't like the idea of hunting for sport. I support wearing fur (going back to the idea of using all of the animal).

Yeah, sure, but when was the last time you ate a chinchilla?

[Araciel]

i like to hunt for the chance to go back to my roots, to get into the great wilderness of my home, and for the chance to get the best meat in the world which is illegal to even buy

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Basically you do it for fun.

[Araciel]

so hunting an animal which has a free life, not in the horrible conditions you so vehemently oppose is wrong??

i'm sorry....i'll go shoot a cow in a pen next time

[Rye]

Animal testing upsets me in large amounts, but honestly and realistically, it's really the only way testing can be done, when it comes to serious medical purposes, like cancer testing. Granted, there ARE some alternatives that should be tried and used. Animal testing for cosmetic purposes pisses me off to no end and I think anyone who condones that is disgusting. There could be a lot less cruelty overall.

As for domestic animal cruelty, like one the cases of Animal Cops, I think that is completely disgusting, and to be perfectly honest, anyone who does stuff like that should have a hot poker shoved up their bum to feel what it is like. If you can't handle an animal, do not buy one. Simple as that. In some places, animal cruelty laws are not where they should be. On a TV special I watched, a man went under cover for a year in a place that was supposed to be some sort of an animal shelter in Arkansas, but it was nothing like that. They bought animals from dog mills, completely abused them (kicking them, smacking them, shooting them for fun, dunking them in bath water with lye or something), shot them for heartworms in their hearts to sell to medical labs, and generally did not feed them or clean them.Piles of dead corpses of dogs with ribs poking out were thrown into a ditch. And there are so many more horrible things that happened. I think that was the hardest thing for me to ever watch, I was sobbing by the end. And I was really mad because it took 5 years to close down, despite the man undercover having a YEAR'S worth of video and audio of the cruelty, all because the animal cruelty laws and police in Arkansas really couldn't give a care.

As for eating meat, I'm a vegetarian, but I was a meat eater my whole life previously. I am not at all someone who looks down on people who eat meat, because humans are omnivores, it's natural. I'm not hoping to influence anyone by my decision, nor would I ever go vegan or join the PETA or wear cow suits in front of steakhouses. I really just didn't feel like eating meat anymore, for me personally. And so long as cruelty is avoided where possible, as Mr. MILF put it, I really don't care about animals being eaten.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

I didn´t said that i said you shouldn´t kill for pleasure.

[Araciel]

and who are you jimmy to say what i feel

[Madame Adequate]

@ Rye: Some cruelty is unavoidable, most notably in medical testing circles, but cruelty of animals in private homes, on farms, for cosmetic testing, is abhorrent and the laws are not nearly strict enough.

Moreover animal cruelty in a young person can indicate very serious issues which could arise later - think of how many things you've read about horrific serial killers, which stated that as a child they often tortured or killed people's pets in the neighbourhood.

[Roto13]

i like to hunt for the chance to go back to my roots, to get into the great wilderness of my home, and for the chance to get the best meat in the world which is illegal to even buyWell, the first two reasons do imply that you're enjoying it.

[Araciel]

thats true, i do enjoy getting out in the the wilderness and feeling like i'm connecting with my ancestors. i'm not some wanton murderer who thinks about killing poor defenseless animals all the time

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

and who are you jimmy to say what i feel

Let´s not get personal you said it yourself you like to hunt and as such you think it´s fun and have pleasure doing it am i wrong?

[Araciel]

it is personal...i enjoy the entire experience, you are not wrong if you agree with that but you said i enjoy killing...is it wrong to want to do something that helps me forget i'm perpetuating something you hate for any amount of time? i told you before these animals have a chance to live...these animals aren't diseased and genetically mutated for our benefit, these animals are not our slaves...i am going to cause the death of hundreds of innocent animals in my life regardless of what i do, so why not see first hand how it can be done with respect and reverence?

[Rye]

@ Rye: Some cruelty is unavoidable, most notably in medical testing circles, but cruelty of animals in private homes, on farms, for cosmetic testing, is abhorrent and the laws are not nearly strict enough.

Agreed, Mr. MILF. When it comes to serious medical testing, some cruelty is inevitable, like you said. I would be a fool to say that serious medical animal testing, testing that could help cure AIDs and cancer and other terrible things, should be abolished, and I think that anyone that says it should be completely abolished is not thinking realistically. I think the benefit outweighs that, and like I said, there are some alternatives that I remember reading a while ago that could be considered in a few cases. But beyond that, cosmetic testing and cruelty of animals is disgusting and the laws have come a long way, but still have a lot of improving to do, especially in certain areas.

[No.78]

Killing animals for any other reason than to eat them is sadistic.

[Araciel]

agreed

[The Devil Man]

Ergggghhhh...

This seems to be a heated topic, but yeah!

I agree with anyone who agrees with animal testing (cos we need it) and for food, but nothing else.

I've been to India a couple of times. You don't wanna know how they treat some animals there :crying: I've seen poor cows have the crap kicked out of them while they graze peacefully in a field, just for fun. Horrible.

[Madame Adequate]

@ Rye: Some cruelty is unavoidable, most notably in medical testing circles, but cruelty of animals in private homes, on farms, for cosmetic testing, is abhorrent and the laws are not nearly strict enough.

Agreed, Mr. MILF. When it comes to serious medical testing, some cruelty is inevitable, like you said. I would be a fool to say that serious medical animal testing, testing that could help cure AIDs and cancer and other terrible things, should be abolished, and I think that anyone that says it should be completely abolished is not thinking realistically. I think the benefit outweighs that, and like I said, there are some alternatives that I remember reading a while ago that could be considered in a few cases. But beyond that, cosmetic testing and cruelty of animals is disgusting and the laws have come a long way, but still have a lot of improving to do, especially in certain areas.

Although we have to be careful when it comes to animal testing - it's useful for establishing principles and rules, not necessarily for direct testing. Many drugs useful to Humans are fatal to animals, and vice-versa. Had penecillin been tested on rats, we might not be using it today, because it kills them pretty sharpish.

[Anaisa]

Animals should not be used to test products that are for human use. We have criminals that could be used for that purpose. People who are a detriment to society could then be of some use. An they will actually be getting punished for their crimes, whilst benefitting the rest of society. Unlike now, where they commit some horrific crime, we put them in prison, an spend money on feeding the scumbags, an get nothing in return. Their a total waste of money. If we were housing them, feeding them, an experimenting on them, then are money would not be wasted. An it's obviously far better to experiment products for humans, on humans. A puppy doesn't deserve to suffer more than some sadistic serial killer. The worst punishment we choose to inflict on criminals of that nature, is better than what humans inflict upon animals everyday.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Animals have the rights expressly given to them by humans as a dominant species. Their fate is our will, as thus it should be.

[Reine]

I have no problem with animal testing, as long as there is no sick needless cruelty going on.

[Zeldy]

I know testing on Animals is bad and wrong, blah blah, but at the end of the day, isnt it better to test on animals than Human beings? Its cruel, but it has to be done. I love Animals, and I understand how Animals are people too, but you have to be realistic.

[Sunny Day Suicide]

http://www.parkwayreststop.com/archives/Deer%20dead.jpg

This is like segragation for deers.

[Trance_Kuja]

Nothing in the universe has rights, we just give ourselves rights to get out of things. Who made up rights...humans, so there is your answer not even humans have rights, someone just made them up and now everyone expects them.

[bipper]

Rights may be man made, but they sure do exist. They are an ideal existing within a social entity. Humans made them, humans grant them. Why did humans grant us rights? Does that critirium fit why animals should have rights? Therrin lies your logical answer.

[Araciel]

Animals should not be used to test products that are for human use. We have criminals that could be used for that purpose. People who are a detriment to society could then be of some use. An they will actually be getting punished for their crimes, whilst benefitting the rest of society. Unlike now, where they commit some horrific crime, we put them in prison, an spend money on feeding the scumbags, an get nothing in return. Their a total waste of money. If we were housing them, feeding them, an experimenting on them, then are money would not be wasted. An it's obviously far better to experiment products for humans, on humans. A puppy doesn't deserve to suffer more than some sadistic serial killer. The worst punishment we choose to inflict on criminals of that nature, is better than what humans inflict upon animals everyday.

this opens up a whole different agrument...