FINAL BATTLE: Thief vs. BB

[Martyr]

I don't see any other threads relating to this topic.
So I say we have at it.

I'm a Thief Supporter, and I'll gether my information for a future post. But I say we all come down here and compare notes and determine for certain, finally, that the Thief is by far and wide, greater than the BB, and that the Black Belt is, in turn, the most useless character ever to desecrate the land of Final Fantasy.

Of course, I am proposing my argument from the standpoint of the NES player.
But I'll allow DoS players or whoever else to state their opinions too. I'm sure that the BB can wear great armor and cast lv. 7 White and Black magic in DoS, but even still...

So, come one, come all. Try (and fail) to defend your ridiculous opinions about how the Black Belt is useful!

[Black Mage FF1]

Compared to the Fighter or Red Mage, both the BB and Thief are useless (just like the wm/bm are useless compared to the Rm). However, I find the Black Belt to be better than the thief.

Black Belt has

Higher attack power
Gets 2x the hits (with fists)
Higher Magic Defense
Higher HP
Cheap
Since he doesnt need weapons he can use his weapon slots for items that cast spells.



The thief has nothing over the bb. The Ninja however, gets some black magic and waaaaaay better defense (due to armor). But thats it.

And please don't mention running. Because like I said before, any four character party can run almost as good as a thief. And is running goin to help you during a boss fight? No.

Honestly though, they are both terrible useless characters. But I still like to use em.

[Captain Maxx Power]

Compared to the Fighter or Red Mage, both the BB and Thief are useless (just like the wm/bm are useless compared to the Rm). However, I find the Black Belt to be better than the thief.

I agree, Red Mage wins.

[Ender]

At high levels in the original NES version the Black Belt's evolution, the Master, PWNS every other class in melee combat. It's not even close. For pure destructive power over a large sequence of battles (that is, where spells would be depleted and all characters would eventually rely on melee combat) nothing tops a high-level Master. If you cannot accept that as fact, then you haven't played the BB/Master late enough into the game, or you're playing one of the inferior versions (Origins or DoS). ;)

Working against the BB/Master are two things:
1. He is limited to melee attacks exclusively (letting him use an item would be a waste of his turn in 95% of cases). He lacks anything that makes him more useful, "in a pinch," than the other classes in any way.
2. It is debatable if, late in the game, ie at high levels, the Master's destuctive power is that big of an advantage. Most high level party combinations can make swiss cheese of the last few "dungeons." Does the Master's destructive power make up for almost total lack of versatility? That depends on your party IMO. A diverse party can stand a single powerful, but non-versatile character. A very melee-heavy party is going to make you wish the BB/M had some other talents besides punching things really hard.

[Nerevarine]

i find the BB to be boring and weak. sure he has phenomonal attack power but only at ridiculously high levels that you dont reach if you r playin a normal game. thiefs can run away very good. the they can use black magic and have attack and defense that is only second to your fighter (assuming that you have at least 1/3 of a brain cell and included a fighter in you party). And as far as my expieriances have gone i have seen white mages in games that have more hp than the BB in the same party. And having lots of hp does no good when you can keep it very long. ghosts have hit me for like 400 plus damage to a master in the second slot. so i find thieves/ninjas to be much more of a reliable character in the game

[Zeromus_X]

Eh, the Black Belt. I mean, if it were just the Thief (disregarding his running skills, as the average person won't try low level games) and not a Ninja, then Black Belt would win, but if it were both higher level classes, then the Master would win, so...>_>. :cat:

[feioncastor]

i find the BB to be boring and weak. sure he has phenomonal attack power but only at ridiculously high levels that you dont reach if you r playin a normal game. thiefs can run away very good. the they can use black magic and have attack and defense that is only second to your fighter (assuming that you have at least 1/3 of a brain cell and included a fighter in you party). And as far as my expieriances have gone i have seen white mages in games that have more hp than the BB in the same party. And having lots of hp does no good when you can keep it very long. ghosts have hit me for like 400 plus damage to a master in the second slot. so i find thieves/ninjas to be much more of a reliable character in the game

The BB doesn't truly shine till you visit Bahamut. I've killed Chaos in 3 hits with a Master, level 30ish (if I remember correctly, it has been a while). By that time, he is usually doing 700 damage per turn.

I have to say that if you're playing a game of practicality and ease, Red Mages are superior, as they make outstanding fighters and can cast the important spells. Sure, they can't use Nuke, but honestly, no use really makes good use of Nuke because you only have 2 or 3 casts for it and you certainly aren't using them on anyone before Chaos. So if you use a Black Mage, and his turn comes up and you're not fighting a boss, you pretty much have to waste his turn, one way or another. You just use a Heal Staff and restore 19 hp to everyone, or have him attack and do 5 damage, if he hits at all. Black Mages do make short work of bosses, though. I mean, it doesn't take a lot of Lit 3 to take down Krakken. Plus, "Fast" is a black magic spell, and that is the source of my Master's powers. But I think that Red Mages/Wizards can use Fast. I know they can't use any of the Harm Spells, and they have gotten me out of many a geist-filled jam. What decent spells can the Red Mage not use? I don't think he can use EXIT, and that's an important one considering that the Temple of Fiends Revisted has no physical exit. If you wanna leave and show the masamune off to all your friends, you'll need a White Wizard, because I'm pretty sure that not even the White Mage can use it.

When you guys refer to the Thief's "running skills", are you saying that the Thief has a better chance of getting a "Close Call..." than a BB or other class?

[Nerevarine]

yes the thief has the best chance of gettin a close call.

is that 3 turns all by himself or a whole party in three turns

and i like the red mage al lot he is easily my favorite character in this game i never have a party without him

puttin the RM and BB in the same party puts you in a predicament with you armor since the both use the opal bracelet at the end of the game. if you use it on RM, 29-35 absorb for your master just dont cut it. Kracken can jack him for like 800 damage in the temple. i had this happen. i dunno if it makes a big difference but he was in the bottom slot too. if the opal bracelet to the Master, the RW has the silver armor then and that adds up to like 38 or so absorb. (also with ribbon,procape and proring). ninja can use the flame/ice gear and no one else uses that in the end game.

this is a major plus to me since i dont have to pucker up my backside everytime i see my master do the little flashy thing for when he gets hit.

[boys from the dwarf]

I don't see any other threads relating to this topic.
So I say we have at it.

I'm a Thief Supporter, and I'll gether my information for a future post. But I say we all come down here and compare notes and determine for certain, finally, that the Thief is by far and wide, greater than the BB, and that the Black Belt is, in turn, the most useless character ever to desecrate the land of Final Fantasy.

Of course, I am proposing my argument from the standpoint of the NES player.
But I'll allow DoS players or whoever else to state their opinions too. I'm sure that the BB can wear great armor and cast lv. 7 White and Black magic in DoS, but even still...

So, come one, come all. Try (and fail) to defend your ridiculous opinions about how the Black Belt is useful!

coming from someone called theiforever.

the BB/master is the most physicall powerful class on the game and is stronger than the fighter.

the theif/ninja is powerful but not as powerful and probably has better defence as well as some pretty useless magic which would be better used by black mages and white mages.

the blackbelt is useful.

[ValiantKnight]

NES - I would think they both have their slight advantages. Toss up

PS1 - BB gains more levels to go up on easy mode, and on all modes thief loses his running superiority. BB wins.

DoS - Thief gets 1-2 extra hits added on to him.. BB gets his hitrate, damage, and everything scattered across 99 levels, and also reduced a bit. BB becomes a weakling... Thief becomes insanely powerful.. Thief wins


NES - toss up
PS1 - BB
DoS - Thief by far....

[Captain Maxx Power]

Eh, the Black Belt. I mean, if it were just the Thief (disregarding his running skills, as the average person won't try low level games) and not a Ninja, then Black Belt would win, but if it were both higher level classes, then the Master would win, so...>_>. :cat:

I am amazed that neither of the following occured in this post:

1: Mention of Red Mages
2: Mention of White Mage Kitties

[Zeromus_X]

Well, of course we know that PRMs and WMKs are the best, but the thread starter was only asking about the Thief and the Black Belt. :) :cat:

[Odin2006]

NES version: The BB owns everyone else, obviously. A bunch of high level Masters can take out Chaos in no time.

GBA version: I'm still experimenting, but the thief seems slightly better then the BB.

[Sylvie]

I'd say the BB would annihilate the Thief. Seriously, the BB is a powerhouse. The Thief is just quick on his feet, and can carry some semi-weak swords. Now, if we were talking BB vs. Ninja, I'd say that the Ninja may have more of a chance. But for now, BB wins.

[Nerevarine]

I don't see any other threads relating to this topic.
But I'll allow DoS players or whoever else to state their opinions too. I'm sure that the BB can wear great armor and cast lv. 7 White and Black magic in DoS, but even still...

The black belt can use level 7 spells and wear better armor in DoS?

Ami missin something here?

[ValiantKnight]

He was adding humor.

The black belt had his stat growth stretched across 99 levels.. so a lvl 50 DoS Black Belt is equal to a lvl 20~ NES/PS1 Black belt.

While a lvl 50 DoS Fighter is equal to maybe a 35~ NES/PS1 Fighter.

They messed up a little on his absorb, evade, hitrate, and other things.. overall he grows much slower, can't get as high damage/absorb/evade/etc.. as he could in NES/PS1, and generally gets outclassed by far by thief in DoS, who gains more base hits along with the mages as well...

(Everyone is usually getting 3-4hits by lvl 20 if memory serves.. or sooner... and thief is getting 3-4 hits at like level 8~)

Just from memory and a short consensus...
(this is just early on, they seem to pull back in line after leveing extensively)
Thief hitrate(number of hits)..... tripled it
Mages hitrate.... doubled it
Black belt crit rate.....halved it
Black belt stat growth... halved it.

It may not be that extensive, but you see a pattern... they stretched out BB, making him a little weaker, and much slower to grow, while increasing the hitrate of every other class except fighter in the early game.

[Captain Maxx Power]

OK, I'll actually give a serious answer.

In terms of NES BB, nothing compares in terms of high amounts of damage to a BB. For one thing, he automatically has double the amount of Hits available to him (one per 16% as oppose to 32%). Secondly his damage is proportionate to his level. I don't know the exact level on which a BB can outclass a Knight with Masamune, but I think it's around Level 35ish. What's interesting about the BB is that once you get to the experience plateau (the point where you always need the same amount of experience to level up, baring 1 point every other level), most of the other characters are essentially "maxed out", gaining only small stat bonuses and HP amounts (MP we'll put to one side here). The BB however will always increase in strength past this point at the same rate as he does in the rest of the game.

Simply put, the BB in the NES version is a character who, in terms of striking power, is constant, whereas other characters will experience jumps in strength. This is most prevelant when one is involved in the lighting of the last two orbs, since there are a bucketload of powerful swords that become available very close to each other. Usually at this point the BB will be continually outclassed by the other melee characters.

Then of course there's the old armour, and this is where the BB falls down. No matter how much HP you may have, if your defence sucks you're going to get hit, and hit hard. No one seems to know the exact calculations involved in Chance to Hit. However the consensus seems to be that Evade does next to nothing to help avoid attacks. Mages, who usually pack a lot of Evade by default due to lighter equipment, will nearly always get hit by an enemy. Very rarely do you ever see the "miss" icon involved in an attack against your party. Then of course there's elemental spells. Since a BB can't wear any equipment without ruining his defence (his defence is either his level totally unequiped or the sum of his equipment), what little equipment he can use can help him in elemental defence, but cripple him in his already lacklustre physical defense (to put this into perspective, a Knight with the best equipment for end game (Dragon Armour, Ribbon, Aegis Shield and ProRing) will have about 80+ absorb, which is 30 more than a Level 50 BB!). A BB's best equipment end game is a Ribbon, Opal Bracelet and ProRing, coming to around 40ish, which is what your mages can be expecting to pack. So this basically means that BB is infact a back-row fighter.

Then there's the spells. O golly gee, the follies of Old-School Square, with their redundant statistics (read: Intelligence) and unbalanced ways. BB's get no spells, and Master's get...well, nothing really. In terms of pure comparison, there is absolutely no difference between a BB and a Master. There's no equipment a Master can equip that a BB can't, and vice versa. There's no bonus stats, and of course no added magic. I always find it amusing when people claim to be doing a solo BB challenge with no-class change. I just think "and getting a Class-Change would change anything how exactly?". Now I'm not a big fan of spells in terms of offensive capability (a BM with no MP is a wasted slot that could be holding a juicy Knight), but I do enjoy them buff and debuff spells, specifically the likes of SLO2 and FAST. BB's don't get anything like this baring any castable items they may have. This of course can be advantageous since a BB will always have at least one equipment slot open for armour (it can even be a piece he's already equipped, e.g. a Heal helm whilst wearing a Ribbon). Without FAST, BB's aren't the uber powerhouses they could be. However, with FAST they can do four figure damage at Level 50.

So in summary, BB's are not made to be front-line fighters. Heck, RM's are better at being up-front than your average BB. What they do (and do very well) is hit hard for most of the early and later game. The part in middle though you're going to wish you had a Theif/Ninja or Fighter/Knight with you instead since their attack will be much lower in comparison to their counterparts. If you want to have some fun, have a BB in the back, FAST him, and watch all those unnecessarily large numbers pop up with glee.

As for DoS, well the BB's just gimped on that, but so is every other class. Go figure.

[Nerevarine]

ok i just got DoS yesterday and i am about to enter the earth cave to fight lich. my fighter has the great axe and my thief has the wyrmkiller(dragon sword) there are times when my level 19 thief will have six hits for dam near 250 damage to most enemies. most of the time my fighter will not do so. he does have less hp then a aproxametly the same expiereinced thief in the NES version but he is packing much more of a whallop. from what yal are sayin in the thread here is that the BB/Monk is nerfed big time in DoS but i have not expierienced this myself.

there is no question of who is better in the DoS version.

i cant wait for him to be a ninja so i can cast both Haste AND Temper

[ValiantKnight]

34 with gold
43 with opal

74 with dragon/etc

At least as far as my memory went.
I seem to remember evading helping some, but that could be me.. he may have not evaded completely, but the hits were down... you'll notice when you hit something with a high evade, even BB's 10hit barrages are reduced to 2... 4.... 1.. hit

On the NES version his multiple hits helped him because of his crit rate. He could hurt high absorb enemies because of having so many hits giving him an strong crit rate. Or that was my take from playing the PS version.. which is as close to NES as I can get on normal.

His armor has always been horrid throughout all versions, save PS1 easy, where he can have the highest armor.. 99.
However at level 99, BB's pinky could theoritcally destroy Chaos in 3 hits... :)

NES - there is debate, Thief has run and low level superiority, Thief has armor and black magic after class change. BB has crit rate, decent HP, and scalable damage that gets quite high

PS1 Normal - Thief lose run ability... Not much else changed

PS1 Easy - BB allowed to grow 49 more levels of damage at NES growth rate, making the cannon on his arm much bigger.. and his defense isn't horrid anymore once leveled. Faster leveling and less gold in this version when related to levels make it so BB is still cheap and becomes stronger faster, offsetting his bad qualities.

DoS - There is no debate, Thief wins hands down.
They tried to stretch out 50 levels into 99 levels..
This was a little harsher on BB whos power depends on levels first of all.
They gave BB a little penalty too.. so it was even worse.
Thief, whose power depends alot less on levels, also got innate extra hits, making him more powerful.

Thief = more damage.... slightly less HP growth
BB = less damage growth, damage growth spread over longer level track, armor growth spread over longer level track, less armor growth.

That's a bit more detailed if it helps...
Basically what i mean by less armor growth... and these are purely guesses atm because it's been a while since I played the DoS version.

At 99, BB should have 50armor naked and hit for.... 3000~ or 4000~?
He may make the 3000 mark in DoS at 99, but his armor is around the low 40s I believe at 99, not 50.

Basically there are only 5 characters to choose from in Dawn of Souls FF1. Just delete BB from the menu :) This coming from a BB fan.

[Crossblades]

Both classes are good, but I'm going with the BB because he has more attack power and HP than the Thief

[ImAFarmer]

BB punches hard.

Hard is good enough.

Who cares about spells if one punch will kill the monster?

Punching is boring though... still BB>Thief