If Tifa and Aerith fought...

[Firo Volondé]

...over Cloud? This is not a spam thread, it's a serious question. Would Tifa's martial arts skills beat Aerith's magic powers? Who would win?

[Zeromus_X]

Let's be serious, Tifa would pound Aerith into the ground.

[Crop]

Oh come on, Aeris would blow Tifa away before she even got close!

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Overall Tifa is a much better character than Aeris.

Aeris is only a bit better in terms of magic but in all the other aspects she is weakling.

Tifa would smash Aeris with ease.

[Polaris]

Tifa would win! :D She's punch Aeris like that *makes moves of martial arts* and that *kick the computer* and Aeris would be send to heaven again... :D

[Darkja]

lol... see the way tifa beat the crap outta loz in advent children? she was flying off the friggin walls and hurling someone probably twice her weight around. no competition, even with aeris' magic.

/

[cloud21zidane16]

aeris stands no chance, tifa would have won before the fight has even began

[MJN SEIFER]

Well Since Aeris can give and take more dangage, can heal her self with out Materia, can seal Tifa's materia to force her to only attack physically and has an actual weapon. I say Tifa's as good as finished.

Aeris > Tifa

[Crop]

Well Since Aeris can give and take more dangage, can heal her self with out Materia, can seal Tifa's materia to force her to only attack physically and has an actual weapon. I say Tifa's as good as finished.

Aeris > Tifa


And I thaught I was backing Aeris on my own.

[f f freak]

Well Since Aeris can give and take more dangage, can heal her self with out Materia, can seal Tifa's materia to force her to only attack physically and has an actual weapon. I say Tifa's as good as finished.

Aeris > Tifa

And considering that Tifa is faster than Aeris, stronger than Aeris, has an incredibly powerful limit break combo and also that Aeris sucks physically, can no way give or take more damage than Tifa and that Tifa can actually fight.

Tifa > Aeris.

[LunarWeaver]

Tifa would only think she's won, but Aeris would summon her lifestream of doom from beyond the grave and Tifa would be fucked.

I say it's a draw.

[Muse]

Tifa would most likely kick Aeris' ass, unless Aeris kept using her healing abilities.

[Timerk]

I think people underestimate how powerful Aeris was, I mean, she was the one in the party Sephi was worried about, not Cloud.

If she had to, she could beat Tifa in a fight, but Aeris would never fight over Cloud. She would just laugh and walk away, because she knew how things were going to end up anyway.

[Firo Volondé]

And considering that Tifa is faster than Aeris, stronger than Aeris, has an incredibly powerful limit break combo
If we're putting Limit Breaks into the equation, Great Gospel > Final Heaven. Personally, though, I think that Aerith would choose Zack over Cloud, and let Tifa have Cloud all to herself.

[boys from the dwarf]

Overall Tifa is a much better character than Aeris.

Aeris is only a bit better in terms of magic but in all the other aspects she is weakling.

Tifa would smash Aeris with ease.

aeris may have magic but thats only because of materia.

in a no materia battle. tifa definetly.

if they have materia, seems as how aeris isn't massively better at magic, i'd still say tifa.

[MJN SEIFER]

Well Since Aeris can give and take more dangage, can heal her self with out Materia, can seal Tifa's materia to force her to only attack physically and has an actual weapon. I say Tifa's as good as finished.

Aeris > Tifa

And considering that Tifa is faster than Aeris, stronger than Aeris, has an incredibly powerful limit break combo and also that Aeris sucks physically, can no way give or take more damage than Tifa and that Tifa can actually fight.

Tifa > Aeris.

What? when I played Aeris was one of my most powerful characters as she levled up faster than everyone else (Compesation), and Aeris is more used to fighting.

And I can tell you're only saying these false facts as you're a Tifa fan.

At least I like both of them.

[f f freak]

What? when I played Aeris was one of my most powerful characters as she levled up faster than everyone else (Compesation), and Aeris is more used to fighting.

And I can tell you're only saying these false facts as you're a Tifa fan.

At least I like both of them.

That's strange because Aeris leveled up at the exact same pace as most people in my game. Aeris is more used to using magic to fight whereas Tifa was more used to using physical attacks to fight.

Yes I am a Tifa fan but the facts are no more false than your own. And I did like Aeris. I prefered Tifa's personality but I liked them both. Aeris had her uses. Her Seal Evil limit break was particularly helpful in some boss battles. Just as Tifa's limit break was helpful in some boss battles.

[Ryushikaze]

I think people underestimate how powerful Aeris was, I mean, she was the one in the party Sephi was worried about, not Cloud.

Sephypoo was worried about Holy. Not Aerith.


If she had to, she could beat Tifa in a fight, but Aeris would never fight over Cloud. She would just laugh and walk away, because she knew how things were going to end up anyway.

Yes, and why should Aerith fight a futile battle anyways?

[Firo Volondé]

What? when I played Aeris was one of my most powerful characters as she levled up faster than everyone else (Compesation),

That's probably because you used her more. In any case, Cloud would've leveled up faster since he's in your party more or less the whole game


That's strange because Aeris leveled up at the exact same pace as most people in my game. Aeris is more used to using magic to fight whereas Tifa was more used to using physical attacks to fight.

Apart from limit breaks, all the characters are malleable. Magical prowess depends on how much magic materia you have, physical prowess is if you don't have much magic materia.


Sephypoo was worried about Holy. Not Aerith.

Sephypoo was also worried about Aerith, she being the only person who was able to use the White Materia.

[Ryushikaze]

Sephypoo was worried about Holy. Not Aerith.

Sephypoo was also worried about Aerith, she being the only person who was able to use the White Materia.

Bull and Crap. Anyone could use Holy if they gave thought to it, same as any other Materia, and especially after heading through the temple, where the instructions to it and its opposite were inscribed. Yes, Aerith was a threat, but were Aerith minused Holy, Sephy would not have given her a second's thought.

[Bart's Friend Milhouse]

Aeris is hotter so she would win

[MJN SEIFER]

Aeris is hotter so she would win

A winner is you!

[Carl the Llama]

Well first of all lets say they were fighting in the game of FFVII Aerith would win as it would be turn based and she would use her Great Gospel... Id like to see Tifa do damage to someone who is invincible, secondly she has many great healing abilitys, yea she may be physically weak but she has awesom magical capeabilitys and like in D&D who would win a fight out of a wizard and a fighter? as Dragon Mage said in a previous thread
Now there's something I've noticed in all my long years of playing D&D. The wizards really kick as*. In one session, we stumbled upon about 25 ogres. My fighter was having a heck of a time with them. My brother, who has a wizard, flew into the air on the back of a summoned dragon and placed about 8 expanded, enlarged and empowered fireballs on the whole field where the ogres were and all of the fireballs overlapped at a point. The ogres were completley exterminated. One other time, we ran into 14 centaurs. One fireball fried them all, before I even got a chance to draw my sword!! That is pretty amazing. So just because someone has a sword and an evil plan, doesn't make them ulitimately badas* and powerful. Being a wizard/magic-user takes at least as much, if not, far more skill than a fighter/swordsman. Never underestimate the wizard. For that is true strength beyond all the boundries of reality.

Obviously Aerith would win...




Sephypoo was worried about Holy. Not Aerith.

Sephypoo was also worried about Aerith, she being the only person who was able to use the White Materia.

Bull and Crap. Anyone could use Holy if they gave thought to it, same as any other Materia, and especially after heading through the temple, where the instructions to it and its opposite were inscribed. Yes, Aerith was a threat, but were Aerith minused Holy, Sephy would not have given her a second's thought.

anyone could have used Holy? hmm looks like its time for our friend Mr Game Script to put in an aperence.


Cloud: What is this place?

Aerith: This forest leads to the City of the Ancients... and is called the
Sleeping Forest. It's only a matter of time before Sephiroth uses Meteor.
That's why I'm going to protect it. Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can
do it. This secret is just up here. At least it should be. ...I feel it. It
feels like I'm being led by something. Then, I'll be going now. I'll come back
when it's all over.

Cloud: Aerith?

Aerith left, but Cloud couldn't move towards her.

Sephiroth: Hmm...... She's thinking of interfering? She will be a difficult
one, don't you think? We must stop that girl soon.

Now call me a liar if you will but im sure Sephiroth is refuring to Aerith as the problem... again I could be wrong :greenie:



Well Since Aeris can give and take more dangage, can heal her self with out Materia, can seal Tifa's materia to force her to only attack physically and has an actual weapon. I say Tifa's as good as finished.

Aeris > Tifa

And considering that Tifa is faster than Aeris, stronger than Aeris, has an incredibly powerful limit break combo and also that Aeris sucks physically, can no way give or take more damage than Tifa and that Tifa can actually fight.

Tifa > Aeris.
erm I have a question for you: how do you know Aerith isnt as fast as Tifa? not that I dissagre with you or anything but you actully never saw Aerith moveing much it doesnt mean that she cant move damn fast if she has to.

Tifa = Kick ass, Aerith = Kick much ass

[Ryushikaze]

Well first of all lets say they were fighting in the game of FFVII Aerith would win as it would be turn based and she would use her Great Gospel... Id like to see Tifa do damage to someone who is invincible, secondly she has many great healing abilitys, yea she may be physically weak but she has awesom magical capeabilitys and like in D&D who would win a fight out of a wizard and a fighter?

1- Tifa has the higher speed and would win init. Aerith cannot use gospel if Tifa pwns her first.
2- She has healing capabilities, true, but they are not as availble as you would like to present them.
3- Gameplay != reality, even within system. While a decent way to compare, it should be weighted accordingly.
4- Actually, to make a D&D comparison, it's comparing the cleric to the monk, which is a whole different kettle of fish.


as Dragon Mage said in a previous thread
Now there's something I've noticed in all my long years of playing D&D. The wizards really kick as*. In one session, we stumbled upon about 25 ogres. My fighter was having a heck of a time with them. My brother, who has a wizard, flew into the air on the back of a summoned dragon and placed about 8 expanded, enlarged and empowered fireballs on the whole field where the ogres were and all of the fireballs overlapped at a point. The ogres were completley exterminated. One other time, we ran into 14 centaurs. One fireball fried them all, before I even got a chance to draw my sword!! That is pretty amazing. So just because someone has a sword and an evil plan, doesn't make them ulitimately badas* and powerful. Being a wizard/magic-user takes at least as much, if not, far more skill than a fighter/swordsman. Never underestimate the wizard. For that is true strength beyond all the boundries of reality.

Obviously Aerith would win...

She who has exactly as much access to fireballs as Tifa. Also, I just realized, the first situation isn't possible, or more accurately, damn improbable. It would take eight turns to pull- four with quickened spells- delayed blast fireballs, and a high enough relevant ability modifier, making the situation both high level and high stats, unless something's been left out of the tale here.




Sephypoo was worried about Holy. Not Aerith.

Sephypoo was also worried about Aerith, she being the only person who was able to use the White Materia.

Bull and Crap. Anyone could use Holy if they gave thought to it, same as any other Materia, and especially after heading through the temple, where the instructions to it and its opposite were inscribed. Yes, Aerith was a threat, but were Aerith minused Holy, Sephy would not have given her a second's thought.

anyone could have used Holy? hmm looks like its time for our friend Mr Game Script to put in an aperence.


Cloud: What is this place?

Aerith: This forest leads to the City of the Ancients... and is called the
Sleeping Forest. It's only a matter of time before Sephiroth uses Meteor.
That's why I'm going to protect it. Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can
do it. This secret is just up here. At least it should be. ...I feel it. It
feels like I'm being led by something. Then, I'll be going now. I'll come back
when it's all over.

Cloud: Aerith?

Aerith left, but Cloud couldn't move towards her.

Sephiroth: Hmm...... She's thinking of interfering? She will be a difficult
one, don't you think? We must stop that girl soon.

Now call me a liar if you will but im sure Sephiroth is refuring to Aerith as the problem... again I could be wrong :greenie:[/quote]

Materia is open to anyone with the knowledge to use it. Aerith, as a Cetra, has the capability to hear the planet which is pulling her to use the power, but not the exclusive capability. And I never said Aerith+Holy was not a threat. Just that Aerith- Holy would not have been.




Well Since Aeris can give and take more dangage, can heal her self with out Materia, can seal Tifa's materia to force her to only attack physically and has an actual weapon. I say Tifa's as good as finished.

Aeris > Tifa

And considering that Tifa is faster than Aeris, stronger than Aeris, has an incredibly powerful limit break combo and also that Aeris sucks physically, can no way give or take more damage than Tifa and that Tifa can actually fight.

Tifa > Aeris.
erm I have a question for you: how do you know Aerith isnt as fast as Tifa? not that I dissagre with you or anything but you actully never saw Aerith moveing much it doesnt mean that she cant move damn fast if she has to.

Tifa = Kick ass, Aerith = Kick much ass

And how do we know that Cait Sith cannot outarmwrestle Proud Clod? And how do we know Barret can't do quantum physics in his head? We have no evidence of Aerith moving quickly, hence we have no reason to believe that she is capable of things she has never been observed doing.
And even though it's low on the useful scale, there is also the stat comparison.

Though, speaking of Mage Vs Fighter, I recently had a battle between a Tome and Blood based character and Complete Mage based character. We called it after an hour of not being able to kill each other.

[Ashley Schovitz]

Tifa the difa hands down, Aeris is too soft and I don't recall this Gsopel move that everyone's talking about.

[VitalChance]

Tifa would pwn the pansy healer. thats right healer, not a fighter.. O_o

[Firo Volondé]

Sephypoo was worried about Holy. Not Aerith.

Sephypoo was also worried about Aerith, she being the only person who was able to use the White Materia.

Bull and Crap. Anyone could use Holy if they gave thought to it, same as any other Materia, and especially after heading through the temple, where the instructions to it and its opposite were inscribed. Yes, Aerith was a threat, but were Aerith minused Holy, Sephy would not have given her a second's thought.

anyone could have used Holy? hmm looks like its time for our friend Mr Game Script to put in an aperence.


Cloud: What is this place?

Aerith: This forest leads to the City of the Ancients... and is called the
Sleeping Forest. It's only a matter of time before Sephiroth uses Meteor.
That's why I'm going to protect it. Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can
do it. This secret is just up here. At least it should be. ...I feel it. It
feels like I'm being led by something. Then, I'll be going now. I'll come back
when it's all over.

Cloud: Aerith?

Aerith left, but Cloud couldn't move towards her.

Sephiroth: Hmm...... She's thinking of interfering? She will be a difficult
one, don't you think? We must stop that girl soon.

Now call me a liar if you will but im sure Sephiroth is refuring to Aerith as the problem... again I could be wrong :greenie:

Materia is open to anyone with the knowledge to use it. Aerith, as a Cetra, has the capability to hear the planet which is pulling her to use the power, but not the exclusive capability. And I never said Aerith+Holy was not a threat. Just that Aerith- Holy would not have been.

You're right, Aerith doesn't have exclusive capability to hear the planet - any living Cetra could. Hmmm... wait a minute! Aerith is the only living Cetra left! Therefore, Sephiroth was as worried about Aerith as he was about Holy, probably more, since Aerith was the one utilizing Holy, not vice versa.





Well Since Aeris can give and take more dangage, can heal her self with out Materia, can seal Tifa's materia to force her to only attack physically and has an actual weapon. I say Tifa's as good as finished.

Aeris > Tifa

And considering that Tifa is faster than Aeris, stronger than Aeris, has an incredibly powerful limit break combo and also that Aeris sucks physically, can no way give or take more damage than Tifa and that Tifa can actually fight.

Tifa > Aeris.
erm I have a question for you: how do you know Aerith isnt as fast as Tifa? not that I dissagre with you or anything but you actully never saw Aerith moveing much it doesnt mean that she cant move damn fast if she has to.

Tifa = Kick ass, Aerith = Kick much ass

And how do we know that Cait Sith cannot outarmwrestle Proud Clod? And how do we know Barret can't do quantum physics in his head? We have no evidence of Aerith moving quickly, hence we have no reason to believe that she is capable of things she has never been observed doing.


How do we know Tifa is faster than Aerith? We have no evidence of Aerith being unable to move quickly, hence there is no way anybody can claim that Tifa moves faster than Aerith, which is what ~Reno~ was saying.


Tifa the difa hands down, Aeris is too soft and I don't recall this Gsopel move that everyone's talking about.

Great Gospel - Aerith's Lv. 4 Limit Break.

[atlanteay]

Sephypoo was worried about Holy. Not Aerith.

Sephypoo was also worried about Aerith, she being the only person who was able to use the White Materia.

Bull and Crap. Anyone could use Holy if they gave thought to it, same as any other Materia, and especially after heading through the temple, where the instructions to it and its opposite were inscribed. Yes, Aerith was a threat, but were Aerith minused Holy, Sephy would not have given her a second's thought.

anyone could have used Holy? hmm looks like its time for our friend Mr Game Script to put in an aperence.


Cloud: What is this place?

Aerith: This forest leads to the City of the Ancients... and is called the
Sleeping Forest. It's only a matter of time before Sephiroth uses Meteor.
That's why I'm going to protect it. Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can
do it. This secret is just up here. At least it should be. ...I feel it. It
feels like I'm being led by something. Then, I'll be going now. I'll come back
when it's all over.

Cloud: Aerith?

Aerith left, but Cloud couldn't move towards her.

Sephiroth: Hmm...... She's thinking of interfering? She will be a difficult
one, don't you think? We must stop that girl soon.


Now call me a liar if you will but im sure Sephiroth is refuring to Aerith as the problem... again I could be wrong :greenie:


Materia is open to anyone with the knowledge to use it. Aerith, as a Cetra, has the capability to hear the planet which is pulling her to use the power, but not the exclusive capability. And I never said Aerith+Holy was not a threat. Just that Aerith- Holy would not have been.

so anyone can summon Holy once they have the materia for it? So even Barret or Cid can summon holy? did Mr. Gamescript ever say that?

i'd say Tifa can beat Aeris. It takes time to summon magic and all that so by that time, tifa can already beat Aeris up XP

[Ryushikaze]

You're right, Aerith doesn't have exclusive capability to hear the planet - any living Cetra could. Hmmm... wait a minute! Aerith is the only living Cetra left! Therefore, Sephiroth was as worried about Aerith as he was about Holy, probably more, since Aerith was the one utilizing Holy, not vice versa.

Disagree. Holy was using Aerith to be cast, Aerith just went along with it.
Also, to be frank, the idea that the cetra, who are absolutely capable of looking exactly like and interbreeding with the rest of homo sapiens, died out is a silly notion. Or rather, that Aerith is the only one capable of hearing the planet (which she canonically isn't, mind. Bugen comes to mind), if their abilities are genetic, seems incredibly unlikely.



-snip

How do we know Tifa is faster than Aerith? We have no evidence of Aerith being unable to move quickly, hence there is no way anybody can claim that Tifa moves faster than Aerith, which is what ~Reno~ was saying.

We have no evidence of Aerith being able to move quickly. Hence, we have no reason to believe she can. The only reason we have to believe that anyone can do anything is evidence that they can do so.
An example: We have no evidence that Cait Sith can't shoot laser beams out his ass. Maybe he can.



so anyone can summon Holy once they have the materia for it? So even Barret or Cid can summon holy? did Mr. Gamescript ever say that?

Theoretically yes, though I'd give Cid a better chance than Barret. If a non cetra can use the horrendous kill 'em all weapon with just a little bit of study, it would only make sense that the override code could be activated similarly. Hell, I'd make it even EASIER.
Every other Materia in existence has absolutely no racial limiter regarding its usage, merely the knowledge of its application, and this includes Meteor. That Holy is the sole exception does not follow.


i'd say Tifa can beat Aeris. It takes time to summon magic and all that so by that time, tifa can already beat Aeris up XP

Especially if they start the battle with limit, or let Tifa use the utterly broken godhand/deathblow combo.

[XandrewX]

Tifa..no doubt

[Firo Volondé]

You're right, Aerith doesn't have exclusive capability to hear the planet - any living Cetra could. Hmmm... wait a minute! Aerith is the only living Cetra left! Therefore, Sephiroth was as worried about Aerith as he was about Holy, probably more, since Aerith was the one utilizing Holy, not vice versa.

Disagree. Holy was using Aerith to be cast, Aerith just went along with it.
Also, to be frank, the idea that the cetra, who are absolutely capable of looking exactly like and interbreeding with the rest of homo sapiens, died out is a silly notion.

They look identical to regular humans but possess a unique ability to commune with the planet and to guide the flow of its spiritual energy. All ordinary humans can trace their origins to the Cetra, having ceased to become Ancients when they gave up their migratory life-style and link to the earth in favor of permanent settlements and a more relaxed way of living.


Or rather, that Aerith is the only one capable of hearing the planet (which she canonically isn't, mind. Bugen comes to mind), if their abilities are genetic, seems incredibly unlikely.

Bugenhagen is not a Cetra. Otherwise he would have been imprisoned by Shinra, or certainly would have tried to use Holy, instead of giving Cloud and co. advice:

Bugenhagen: Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud: Even us!?

Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the
planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear.
That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?




so anyone can summon Holy once they have the materia for it? So even Barret or Cid can summon holy? did Mr. Gamescript ever say that?

Theoretically yes, though I'd give Cid a better chance than Barret. If a non cetra can use the horrendous kill 'em all weapon with just a little bit of study, it would only make sense that the override code could be activated similarly. Hell, I'd make it even EASIER.
Every other Materia in existence has absolutely no racial limiter regarding its usage, merely the knowledge of its application, and this includes Meteor. That Holy is the sole exception does not follow.


Being a major plot device, the White Materia cannot be equipped or used in battle, and technically does not exist as an item at all in the game engine.


Aerith: Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can do it.

[LunarWeaver]

If only this had a poll so it could be decided by popularity contest as it should be.

[Riana]

To be honest, I don't think Aeris would fight at all. She tries to avoid such conflicts.

And who on Earth would fight in a dress anyway? God knows I've tried, not easy doing high kicks in a skirt. @_@;

All these posts have interesting points, about Aeris' magic and Tifa's abilities. But the real question is, who is the better strategist? Isn't that what battling is all about? I don't think it matters what you use in a battle it's how you use it.

Anyway I say Aeris. =p

[RiseToFall]

What is wrong with some of you people? Tifa will have no problem taking out Aeris.

[Carl the Llama]

Well first of all lets say they were fighting in the game of FFVII Aerith would win as it would be turn based and she would use her Great Gospel... Id like to see Tifa do damage to someone who is invincible, secondly she has many great healing abilitys, yea she may be physically weak but she has awesom magical capeabilitys and like in D&D who would win a fight out of a wizard and a fighter?

1- Tifa has the higher speed and would win init. Aerith cannot use gospel if Tifa pwns her first.
4- Actually, to make a D&D comparison, it's comparing the cleric to the monk, which is a whole different kettle of fish.
1. I'm sorry but thats rubish, we arent talking about the movie where battles are set in Real Time we are talking about a battle inside the game where the battle would be Turn Based so the battle would go somthing like this:
Tifa: attack
Aerith: Fire (or some other magical spell)
(and say for instance Tifa is faster as you say maybe she would get 2 turns thus filling up Aeriths limit bar that much faster.
half way through the fight Aerith uses Great Gospel and she is now invincible
Tifa: FINAL HEAVEN!!!!
Aerith: takes 0 damage
Tifa: "Oh crap"
4. I'm sorry but thats a load of Bull, Aerith is recognised as the mage of FFVII and as such she would be a mage in any such D&D comparison, its just the fact that practically no one used her as a mage its their loss.



She who has exactly as much access to fireballs as Tifa. Also, I just realized, the first situation isn't possible, or more accurately, damn improbable. It would take eight turns to pull- four with quickened spells- delayed blast fireballs, and a high enough relevant ability modifier, making the situation both high level and high stats, unless something's been left out of the tale here.
so your saying that in a turn based battle with Tifa at lets say for arguements sake they are level 30 both that she could kill Aerith in 1 hit? dont be stupid of corse she couldnt, while she would have the greater physical stats Aerith would have greater magical stats and would do much more damage with her magic.


Materia is open to anyone with the knowledge to use it. Aerith, as a Cetra, has the capability to hear the planet which is pulling her to use the power, but not the exclusive capability. And I never said Aerith+Holy was not a threat. Just that Aerith- Holy would not have been.
lets not go down the road if and but's, Aerith did have holy and she was the only one who could have used Holy. Full stop.


and how do we know that Cait Sith cannot outarmwrestle Proud Clod? And how do we know Barret can't do quantum physics in his head? We have no evidence of Aerith moving quickly, hence we have no reason to believe that she is capable of things she has never been observed doing.
Well the 2 things you said are completely ridiculas its like saying how do we know that Bruce Lee could kick some 10y/o's ass: its just somthing that you know just as the same that we "just know" that Barret cant do quantum physics and that Cait Sith cant arm wrestle the Proud Clod it possible that Aerith can move fast if she has such a need to.


Though, speaking of Mage Vs Fighter, I recently had a battle between a Tome and Blood based character and Complete Mage based character. We called it after an hour of not being able to kill each other.
good for you =D.


Disagree. Holy was using Aerith to be cast, Aerith just went along with it.
Also, to be frank, the idea that the cetra, who are absolutely capable of looking exactly like and interbreeding with the rest of homo sapiens, died out is a silly notion. Or rather, that Aerith is the only one capable of hearing the planet (which she canonically isn't, mind. Bugen comes to mind), if their abilities are genetic, seems incredibly unlikely.
Holy was useing Aerith? iv never heard such a ridiculas thing in my life, Holy is a materia and materia dont "use" people its the other way around Aerith used holy. Besides the Cetra were powerful magical beings, thats how Materia was made:


Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

[atlanteay]

Well first of all lets say they were fighting in the game of FFVII Aerith would win as it would be turn based and she would use her Great Gospel... Id like to see Tifa do damage to someone who is invincible, secondly she has many great healing abilitys, yea she may be physically weak but she has awesom magical capeabilitys and like in D&D who would win a fight out of a wizard and a fighter?

1- Tifa has the higher speed and would win init. Aerith cannot use gospel if Tifa pwns her first.
4- Actually, to make a D&D comparison, it's comparing the cleric to the monk, which is a whole different kettle of fish.
1. I'm sorry but thats rubish, we arent talking about the movie where battles are set in Real Time we are talking about a battle inside the game where the battle would be Turn Based so the battle would go somthing like this:
Tifa: attack
Aerith: Fire (or some other magical spell)
(and say for instance Tifa is faster as you say maybe she would get 2 turns thus filling up Aeriths limit bar that much faster.
half way through the fight Aerith uses Great Gospel and she is now invincible
Tifa: FINAL HEAVEN!!!!
Aerith: takes 0 damage
Tifa: "Oh crap"
4. I'm sorry but thats a load of Bull, Aerith is recognised as the mage of FFVII and as such she would be a mage in any such D&D comparison, its just the fact that practically no one used her as a mage its their loss.
well. if tifa gets two turns to hit Aerith then might i add that she would be dead pretty soon :rolleyes2 if you think about it, two hits that can fill the bar means pretty strong hits and Aerith is not exactly the best defender so that means she'll be dead before she even gets to use Great Gospel.




Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

so that proves that anyone with the White Materia can summon holy. Aerith just happened to have a mother with that materia who gaved it to her.

[Ryushikaze]

They look identical to regular humans but possess a unique ability to commune with the planet and to guide the flow of its spiritual energy. All ordinary humans can trace their origins to the Cetra, having ceased to become Ancients when they gave up their migratory life-style and link to the earth in favor of permanent settlements and a more relaxed way of living.

Repeat after me: Wikipedia is not a source.



Or rather, that Aerith is the only one capable of hearing the planet (which she canonically isn't, mind. Bugen comes to mind), if their abilities are genetic, seems incredibly unlikely.

Bugenhagen is not a Cetra. Otherwise he would have been imprisoned by Shinra, or certainly would have tried to use Holy, instead of giving Cloud and co. advice:

Bugenhagen: Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud: Even us!?

Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the
planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear.
That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?

Note I never said Bugen was a Cetra. Though it IS worth noting that your Bugen quote comes from him y'know, listening to the planet in the cascade.


Being a major plot device, the White Materia cannot be equipped or used in battle, and technically does not exist as an item at all in the game engine.

Repeat note regarding Wikipedia, also, relevance?


Aerith: Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can do it.

Yes, Aerith thinks she's the only one that can use it. She's not omniscient. Excuse me for not thinking the Cetra are complete smegheads and placed a ridiculous limiter on their override/ abort device.


1. I'm sorry but thats rubish, we arent talking about the movie where battles are set in Real Time we are talking about a battle inside the game where the battle would be Turn Based so the battle would go somthing like this:

FF7 uses the ATB system, but that's somewhat beside the point. Why are you using a gameplay engine we know to not fully represent combat as somehow more comprehensive than actual combat? No, really. Do tell.


Tifa: attack
Aerith: Fire (or some other magical spell)
(and say for instance Tifa is faster as you say maybe she would get 2 turns thus filling up Aeriths limit bar that much faster.

Well, if Aerith gets magic, why not Tifa? They both use materia to get it.


half way through the fight Aerith uses Great Gospel and she is now invincible
Tifa: FINAL HEAVEN!!!!
Aerith: takes 0 damage
Tifa: "Oh crap"

Now Aerith can try damaging Tifa until GG wears off. That will be fun. Of course, Atlanteay's point is also valid, especially if one uses the godhand/deathblow combo.


4. I'm sorry but thats a load of Bull, Aerith is recognised as the mage of FFVII and as such she would be a mage in any such D&D comparison, its just the fact that practically no one used her as a mage its their loss.

She may be 'recognized' as the mage, but that hardly makes her one, especially since she only has healer spells sans materia, making her actually more akin to the obscure 'healer' class than anything else.


so your saying that in a turn based battle with Tifa at lets say for arguements sake they are level 30 both that she could kill Aerith in 1 hit? dont be stupid of corse she couldnt, while she would have the greater physical stats Aerith would have greater magical stats and would do much more damage with her magic.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my tangent, but yes, Tifa can 1HKO Aerith, with Godhand/Deathblow. And the amount by which Tifa's physical stats outclass Aerith's is higher than the amount by which the reverse occurs.


lets not go down the road if and but's, Aerith did have holy and she was the only one who could have used Holy. Full stop.

She had Holy. She was not the only one who could have used it.



Well the 2 things you said are completely ridiculas its like saying how do we know that Bruce Lee could kick some 10y/o's ass: its just somthing that you know just as the same that we "just know" that Barret cant do quantum physics and that Cait Sith cant arm wrestle the Proud Clod it possible that Aerith can move fast if she has such a need to.

You miss the point. My two examples have never even hinted at having that capability. Similarly, Aerith has ALSO never hinted at being able to move at high speed. Especially in a critical situation.


Holy was useing Aerith? iv never heard such a ridiculas thing in my life, Holy is a materia and materia dont "use" people its the other way around Aerith used holy. Besides the Cetra were powerful magical beings, thats how Materia was made:


Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

Thank you for proving my earlier point. However, Holy WANTED to be cast, since Meteor had been, and its purpose was to counteract it. People use materia, but when the materia wishes to be used, the dynamic changes slightly, would you not agree?

[Carl the Llama]

well. if tifa gets two turns to hit Aerith then might i add that she would be dead pretty soon :rolleyes2 if you think about it, two hits that can fill the bar means pretty strong hits and Aerith is not exactly the best defender so that means she'll be dead before she even gets to use Great Gospel.
You obviously misunder stood what I wrote: I didnt mean that 2 hits would fill up her bar I mean that if Tifa is as quick as everyone says she is then she could possibly get 2 hits to Aerith's 1 and even if she would get hit twice and Aerith did nothing but heal for most of the fight once she has Great Gospel Tifa would be doomed





Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

so that proves that anyone with the White Materia can summon holy. Aerith just happened to have a mother with that materia who gaved it to her.
No, Aerith is the only one who can use Holy: its a Cetra only spell if you will: it could be somthing akin to giveing a level 1 Cloud KotR: he does not have enough MP to use it end of story: let me put this clear to everyone: Aerith (being of the Cetra) is the ONLY one who can use Holy there is no if's or buts this is fact and trying to say otherwise is like trying to say the Sun is made of ice: clearly not true, you can try to say oh but this and oh but that but it will never happen: the reason Aerith had to die and was a threat to Sephiroth was for the sole reason that only she (being of the Cetra) can summon Holy. Is that clear enough for you?

[atlanteay]

well. if tifa gets two turns to hit Aerith then might i add that she would be dead pretty soon :rolleyes2 if you think about it, two hits that can fill the bar means pretty strong hits and Aerith is not exactly the best defender so that means she'll be dead before she even gets to use Great Gospel.

You obviously misunder stood what I wrote: I didnt mean that 2 hits would fill up her bar I mean that if Tifa is as quick as everyone says she is then she could possibly get 2 hits to Aerith's 1 and even if she would get hit twice and Aerith did nothing but heal for most of the fight once she has Great Gospel Tifa would be doomed
how can tifa be doomed? If Aerith did use Great Gospel, that would only make her invincible for a number for turns. Since Aerith gets to have Materia to cure herself, then Tifa should have cure also. So tifa can cure herself once Aerith damages her. Once great gospel wears off, Tifa's limit bar would be full by then so Final Heaven could've easily K.O.ed Aerith.







Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

so that proves that anyone with the White Materia can summon holy. Aerith just happened to have a mother with that materia who gaved it to her.
No, Aerith is the only one who can use Holy: its a Cetra only spell if you will: it could be somthing akin to giveing a level 1 Cloud KotR: he does not have enough MP to use it end of story: let me put this clear to everyone: Aerith (being of the Cetra) is the ONLY one who can use Holy there is no if's or buts this is fact and trying to say otherwise is like trying to say the Sun is made of ice: clearly not true, you can try to say oh but this and oh but that but it will never happen: the reason Aerith had to die and was a threat to Sephiroth was for the sole reason that only she (being of the Cetra) can summon Holy. Is that clear enough for you?
did Mr. Gamescript state clearly that Aerith, and only Aerith can in fact summon holy and no one else can summon it because it's a Cetra only thing? So far, i've only seen statements that only Aerith can protect the planet but that could mean that only she has the materia and not that only she can summon and no else could. Unless you can bring proof that clearly states Cetra=Summon Holy, Non-Cetra = can't summon holy, i'm afraid it's not clear to me enough.

[Dragon Mage]

*sigh* If you are faster in a battle your chances of winning is greatly increased. You can dodge the opponents attacks and land more of your own blows as well. Tifa is obviously faster than Aeris. (Have you ever tried to haul ass in a dress? It's a pain in the ass trust me, esp., if you're wearing high heels.)
Secondly, Aeris is not a offensive fighter. She is a defensive fighter, when she fights, and a 100th level cleric to boot. Her damage is very low and there's a reason why she is automatically put in the back row in the game.
Now, if you assume that both of them have maxed MP and HP, the situation is easier to look at. Let's do so from now on, it makes things so much easier. Now, if Aeris can use materia, then Tifa can as well. Aeris uses GG and attacks Tifa, Tifa can simply use Regen, Big Guard, and then stop on Aeris to counteract Aeris' attack, until GG wears off. Then it's time for an asswhoopin'. I'm sorry, deny it all you want, but Tifa will win. At least she survived in the game.

[Firo Volondé]

They look identical to regular humans but possess a unique ability to commune with the planet and to guide the flow of its spiritual energy. All ordinary humans can trace their origins to the Cetra, having ceased to become Ancients when they gave up their migratory life-style and link to the earth in favor of permanent settlements and a more relaxed way of living.

Repeat after me: Wikipedia is not a source.

Stop insulting Wikipedia and deny the statement. You didn't deny it, because you know it's true. Your only defense is the claim that Wikipedia doesn't verify its articles, which it does. Try making a spam thread and see how long it lasts. Wikipedia clearly states that it uses, among other sources, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Ω, as evidence. Your arguments are easier to kill than Aeris.




Or rather, that Aerith is the only one capable of hearing the planet (which she canonically isn't, mind. Bugen comes to mind), if their abilities are genetic, seems incredibly unlikely.

Bugenhagen is not a Cetra. Otherwise he would have been imprisoned by Shinra, or certainly would have tried to use Holy, instead of giving Cloud and co. advice:

Bugenhagen: Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud: Even us!?

Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the
planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear.
That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?

Note I never said Bugen was a Cetra. Though it IS worth noting that your Bugen quote comes from him y'know, listening to the planet in the cascade.

You're right, you never said Bugen was a Cetra. Therefore, you brought up a totally useless point, as only Cetra can use the White Materia. My mistake.



Being a major plot device, the White Materia cannot be equipped or used in battle, and technically does not exist as an item at all in the game engine.

Repeat note regarding Wikipedia, also, relevance?

Repeat note regarding claiming Wikipedia is wrong, and not denying my statement because it's true. Please dig out your copy of FFVII (judging by your arguments, it hasn't been used in a long time), and try to equip the White Materia on somebody. What's that? You can't? Didn't think so. Also, if I remember correctly, you, Ryushikaze, said that:

Theoretically yes, though I'd give Cid a better chance than Barret. If a non cetra can use the horrendous kill 'em all weapon with just a little bit of study, it would only make sense that the override code could be activated similarly. Hell, I'd make it even EASIER. Every other Materia in existence has absolutely no racial limiter regarding its usage, merely the knowledge of its application, and this includes Meteor. That Holy is the sole exception does not follow.

Need I repeat my statement about White Materia being unequippable, even by the mighty Cid?



Aerith: Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can do it.

Yes, Aerith thinks she's the only one that can use it. She's not omniscient. Excuse me for not thinking the Cetra are complete smegheads and placed a ridiculous limiter on their override/ abort device.

*Sighs, and starts talking in the tone used to explain to a 4-year old fire is hot* Only Cetra can use Holy. Made-up words, like smeghead, make you look dumb.


Tifa can 1HKO Aerith, with Godhand/Deathblow.

I know! I'll use your own quote against you!


Well, if Aerith gets magic, why not Tifa? They both use materia to get it.

If Tifa gets deathblow, so does Aeris. So after she uses GG, she can use deathblow against Tifa. Bye-Bye Tifa!



lets not go down the road if and but's, Aerith did have holy and she was the only one who could have used Holy. Full stop.

She had Holy. She was not the only one who could have used it.

YES SHE WAS. SURELY IF ANYONE COULD DO IT, SHE WOULD'VE HAVE GONE ALONE?



Holy was useing Aerith? iv never heard such a ridiculas thing in my life, Holy is a materia and materia dont "use" people its the other way around Aerith used holy. Besides the Cetra were powerful magical beings, thats how Materia was made:


Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

Thank you for proving my earlier point. However, Holy WANTED to be cast, since Meteor had been, and its purpose was to counteract it. People use materia, but when the materia wishes to be used, the dynamic changes slightly, would you not agree?

Very good. You managed to out-smart that person, if he or she even existed (I note you don't say who said it).










Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic

too?



Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and

wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can

freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts

between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.



so that proves that anyone with the White Materia can summon holy. Aerith just happened to have a mother with that materia who gaved it to her.

No, Aerith is the only one who can use Holy: its a Cetra only spell if you will: it could be somthing akin to giveing a level 1 Cloud KotR: he does not have enough MP to use it end of story: let me put this clear to everyone: Aerith (being of the Cetra) is the ONLY one who can use Holy there is no if's or buts this is fact and trying to say otherwise is like trying to say the Sun is made of ice: clearly not true, you can try to say oh but this and oh but that but it will never happen: the reason Aerith had to die and was a threat to Sephiroth was for the sole reason that only she (being of the Cetra) can summon Holy. Is that clear enough for you?

did Mr. Gamescript state clearly that Aerith, and only Aerith can in fact summon holy and no one else can summon it because it's a Cetra only thing? So far, i've only seen statements that only Aerith can protect the planet but that could mean that only she has the materia and not that only she can summon and no else could. Unless you can bring proof that clearly states Cetra=Summon Holy, Non-Cetra = can't summon holy, i'm afraid it's not clear to me enough.




Cloud: ...Aeris. Aeris has already prayed for Holy. ...After I gave up the Black Materia to Sephiroth...... Aeris' words came into my dreams... She said, she was the only one who could stop Sephiroth...... And to do that, there was a secret here... that was Holy...... That's why, she had the White Materia. Aeris knew about here... and what she had to do. Aeris has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her future... I'm sorry... Aeris. I should have figured this out sooner. ...You left us without saying a word...... It was all so
sudden, so I couldn't think... That's why it took so long for me to find out. But, Aeris... I understand now. Aeris... I'll do the rest.


Is that clear enough for you?

[Ryushikaze]

Repeat after me: Wikipedia is not a source.

Stop insulting Wikipedia and deny the statement. You didn't deny it, because you know it's true. Your only defense is the claim that Wikipedia doesn't verify its articles, which it does. Try making a spam thread and see how long it lasts. Wikipedia clearly states that it uses, among other sources, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Ω, as evidence. Your arguments are easier to kill than Aeris.

Actually, Wiki isn't a good source because anyone can edit it, and it's hardly authoritative. And when the CANON disagrees, well, I chuckle even further at attempting to employ it.


You're right, you never said Bugen was a Cetra. Therefore, you brought up a totally useless point, as only Cetra can use the White Materia. My mistake.

You have yet to prove your- Holy=Cetra only argument, by the by. It's also not useless, as it runs counter to your claim that only the Cetra may hear the planet.


Repeat note regarding claiming Wikipedia is wrong, and not denying my statement because it's true. Please dig out your copy of FFVII (judging by your arguments, it hasn't been used in a long time), and try to equip the White Materia on somebody. What's that? You can't? Didn't think so. Also, if I remember correctly, you, Ryushikaze, said that:

Theoretically yes, though I'd give Cid a better chance than Barret. If a non cetra can use the horrendous kill 'em all weapon with just a little bit of study, it would only make sense that the override code could be activated similarly. Hell, I'd make it even EASIER. Every other Materia in existence has absolutely no racial limiter regarding its usage, merely the knowledge of its application, and this includes Meteor. That Holy is the sole exception does not follow.

Need I repeat my statement about White Materia being unequippable, even by the mighty Cid?

Do I have to repeat my request that you explain how it not being battle equippable means no one can use it? For the longest time, people claimed only Sephiroth could use Masamune, when the canon evidence of Tifa picking it up and swinging it at him is right in front of them?


*Sighs, and starts talking in the tone used to explain to a 4-year old fire is hot* Only Cetra can use Holy. Made-up words, like smeghead, make you look dumb.

Now, while I am just as for slinging insults in the middle of arguments as anyone, I do expect it to be attached to a point. Please, aside from Aerith, who is not infallible, and may in fact be lying as earlier in the game to try and keep her friends safe, please explain to me where your evidence that Cetra only can use their override/abort when anyone can use their kill 'em all weapon comes from, and how such a setup does NOT make them the stupidest people in existence?


I know! I'll use your own quote against you!


Well, if Aerith gets magic, why not Tifa? They both use materia to get it.

If Tifa gets deathblow, so does Aeris. So after she uses GG, she can use deathblow against Tifa. Bye-Bye Tifa!

Only not. Because Deathblow's chances of working on any weapon aside from the Godhand or one of the few other 255 ACC weapons (which Aerith is not privy to) is rather ridiculously low. It can also be linked to Sneak attack, if I'm not mistaken, starting battle with the 1hko.


YES SHE WAS. SURELY IF ANYONE COULD DO IT, SHE WOULD'VE HAVE GONE ALONE?

Sure. She didn't want to put anyone else at risk. A noble, if stupid, sentiment.


Very good. You managed to out-smart that person, if he or she even existed (I note you don't say who said it).

Well now, the ego flows freely.In case you didn't notice, Mr Game script also says anyone can use any Materia.



did Mr. Gamescript state clearly that Aerith, and only Aerith can in fact summon holy and no one else can summon it because it's a Cetra only thing? So far, i've only seen statements that only Aerith can protect the planet but that could mean that only she has the materia and not that only she can summon and no else could. Unless you can bring proof that clearly states Cetra=Summon Holy, Non-Cetra = can't summon holy, i'm afraid it's not clear to me enough.



Cloud: ...Aeris. Aeris has already prayed for Holy. ...After I gave up the Black Materia to Sephiroth...... Aeris' words came into my dreams... She said, she was the only one who could stop Sephiroth...... And to do that, there was a secret here... that was Holy...... That's why, she had the White Materia. Aeris knew about here... and what she had to do. Aeris has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her future... I'm sorry... Aeris. I should have figured this out sooner. ...You left us without saying a word...... It was all so
sudden, so I couldn't think... That's why it took so long for me to find out. But, Aeris... I understand now. Aeris... I'll do the rest.


Is that clear enough for you?

Nope. Please note that in the above quote, Cloud is only reporting what he heard from Aerith in a previous quote, and that she says she's the only one who can stop Sephiroth, not that she's the only one who can use Holy because it can only be used by the Cetra because it has the most arsed up racial limiter in existence on it.

[Crop]

At least she survived in the game.

Which reminds me. If Sephy killed Aeris that easly and quickly, why didnt he just do that to everyone?

[Ryushikaze]

At least she survived in the game.

Which reminds me. If Sephy killed Aeris that easly and quickly, why didnt he just do that to everyone?

Because plot wise, Aerith is 'teh suck'? ::shrug:: good enough explanation as any, I suppose.

[Firo Volondé]

Repeat after me: Wikipedia is not a source.

Stop insulting Wikipedia and deny the statement. You didn't deny it, because you know it's true. Your only defense is the claim that Wikipedia doesn't verify its articles, which it does. Try making a spam thread and see how long it lasts. Wikipedia clearly states that it uses, among other sources, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Ω, as evidence. Your arguments are easier to kill than Aeris.

Actually, Wiki isn't a good source because anyone can edit it, and it's hardly authoritative. And when the CANON disagrees, well, I chuckle even further at attempting to employ it.

Wrong, my good sir. CANON agrees with Wikipedia. And still, you refuse to deny my original statement, about humans being the Cetra who stopped listening to the planet. Before you scoff at Wikipedia, please porvide some evidence as to why it's wrong.



You're right, you never said Bugen was a Cetra. Therefore, you brought up a totally useless point, as only Cetra can use the White Materia. My mistake.

You have yet to prove your- Holy=Cetra only argument, by the by. It's also not useless, as it runs counter to your claim that only the Cetra may hear the planet.
Bugenhagen studied the Planet for years in order to be able to hear the Planet. By the way, Holy only called one person in the whole game, and that was Aerith. And by a startling coincidence, Aerith is the only Cetra left. Why didn't it call to Bugenhagen?



Repeat note regarding claiming Wikipedia is wrong, and not denying my statement because it's true. Please dig out your copy of FFVII (judging by your arguments, it hasn't been used in a long time), and try to equip the White Materia on somebody. What's that? You can't? Didn't think so. Also, if I remember correctly, you, Ryushikaze, said that:

Theoretically yes, though I'd give Cid a better chance than Barret. If a non cetra can use the horrendous kill 'em all weapon with just a little bit of study, it would only make sense that the override code could be activated similarly. Hell, I'd make it even EASIER. Every other Materia in existence has absolutely no racial limiter regarding its usage, merely the knowledge of its application, and this includes Meteor. That Holy is the sole exception does not follow.

Need I repeat my statement about White Materia being unequippable, even by the mighty Cid?

Do I have to repeat my request that you explain how it not being battle equippable means no one can use it? For the longest time, people claimed only Sephiroth could use Masamune, when the canon evidence of Tifa picking it up and swinging it at him is right in front of them?


Suddenly, Cloud saw Sephiroth kill two people with his Masamune. We watch a movie of Sephiroth walking away with flames all over the place. Cloud then proceeds to the Mako Reactor. He saw Tifa's father's dead.
Tifa: Papa... Sephiroth!? Sephiroth did this to you, didn't he!?
Sephiroth... SOLDIER... Mako Reactors... Shinra... Everything! I hate
them all!
Tifa took the Masamune and ran. As Cloud head to the reactor section...
Sephiroth: Mother, I'm here to see you. Please, open this door.
Tifa: How could you do that to papa and all the townspeople?
Tifa attempted to slash Sephiroth with the Masamune but Sephiroth took the sword from her and slashed her. Then Sephiroth went inside the room with Jenova. Cloud helped the wounded Tifa.

Masamune is a sword. Only Sephiroth could wield it meant he was the only one strong enough to actually use it effectively. Anyone could pick it up, but is would be too big to be useful. Just like anybody could hold the White Materia, but Aerith was the only one who could pray to the Planet and unlock Holy. Note that Sephiroth, unarmed, ambushed by Tifa, took the Masamune from Tifa without blinking. Furthermore, that whole sequence is based on Cloud's memories that Zack actually witnessed. It may not even be 100% accurate.


Please, aside from Aerith, who is not infallible, and may in fact be lying as earlier in the game to try and keep her friends safe, please explain to me where your evidence that Cetra only can use their override/abort when anyone can use their kill 'em all weapon comes from, and how such a setup does NOT make them the stupidest people in existence?

The following evidence comes from the site http://au.faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html. It was taken from a translation of the Ultimania guide. My thanks to you, Ryu Kaze.

**The White Materia: Holy** (005.3B)
The only means of opposing Meteor, the Ultimate White Magic was passed down amongst the Ancients. It is said that when an Ancient learns of Holy in the Forgotten Capital, prays at the water altar and their mind then links to the Planet, Holy is thereby put into operation. Passed down through the Ancients' generations, the White Materia came to Aerith from her mother, Ifalna, and she kept it hidden in a ribbon in her hair.

How exactly Holy applies its power once invoked and in operation is not
definite. It is simply known that "all that is bad for the Planet will
disappear."

(Accompanying screenshot caption)
As evidence of the Planet accepting Aerith's prayer, the White Materia laying on the water bed shines a pale green color. However, Holy's movement was being held back by the wicked will of Sephiroth, who had called Meteor.
------------------------
[Analysis: This section confirms what many who played the game believed: that Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to the City of the Ancients -- to which she felt herself being drawn -- and learned of it there, the same way that Bugenhagen later would.]
------------------------

Sephiroth, and only Sephiroth, could use Black Materia because he spent years in the Lifestream, and so gained all the knowledge of the Ancients. He would be able to use Holy as well, and Aerith could use Meteor, but why would they? There's your evidence. And for the record, it would not make Cetra stupid, but the Planet, since it created the White and Black Materia.



I know! I'll use your own quote against you!


Well, if Aerith gets magic, why not Tifa? They both use materia to get it.

If Tifa gets deathblow, so does Aeris. So after she uses GG, she can use deathblow against Tifa. Bye-Bye Tifa!

Only not. Because Deathblow's chances of working on any weapon aside from the Godhand or one of the few other 255 ACC weapons (which Aerith is not privy to) is rather ridiculously low. It can also be linked to Sneak attack, if I'm not mistaken, starting battle with the 1hko.

The chance of Deathblow working may be low, but if she uses it many times, which she can thanks to GG, the chance of it working just once rises exponentially.



YES SHE WAS. SURELY IF ANYONE COULD DO IT, SHE WOULD'VE HAVE GONE ALONE?

Sure. She didn't want to put anyone else at risk. A noble, if stupid, sentiment.

Wrong again. Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she only knew what the Planet was telling her.



Very good. You managed to out-smart that person, if he or she even existed (I note you don't say who said it).

Well now, the ego flows freely.In case you didn't notice, Mr Game script also says anyone can use any Materia.

Except for White and Black Materia. They are very different to normal Materia. Do some research.




did Mr. Gamescript state clearly that Aerith, and only Aerith can in fact summon holy and no one else can summon it because it's a Cetra only thing? So far, i've only seen statements that only Aerith can protect the planet but that could mean that only she has the materia and not that only she can summon and no else could. Unless you can bring proof that clearly states Cetra=Summon Holy, Non-Cetra = can't summon holy, i'm afraid it's not clear to me enough.



Cloud: ...Aeris. Aeris has already prayed for Holy. ...After I gave up the Black Materia to Sephiroth...... Aeris' words came into my dreams... She said, she was the only one who could stop Sephiroth...... And to do that, there was a secret here... that was Holy...... That's why, she had the White Materia. Aeris knew about here... and what she had to do. Aeris has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her future... I'm sorry... Aeris. I should have figured this out sooner. ...You left us without saying a word...... It was all so
sudden, so I couldn't think... That's why it took so long for me to find out. But, Aeris... I understand now. Aeris... I'll do the rest.


Is that clear enough for you?

Nope. Please note that in the above quote, Cloud is only reporting what he heard from Aerith in a previous quote, and that she says she's the only one who can stop Sephiroth, not that she's the only one who can use Holy because it can only be used by the Cetra because it has the most arsed up racial limiter in existence on it.

Because Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she said that because the White Materia, when calling to her, told her that. Aerith may not be infallible, but the Planet is.

[Ryushikaze]

Wrong, my good sir. CANON agrees with Wikipedia.

Prove it.


And still, you refuse to deny my original statement, about humans being the Cetra who stopped listening to the planet. Before you scoff at Wikipedia, please porvide some evidence as to why it's wrong.

Because it IS wrong. The cetra are not unique in their ability to listen to the planet.


Bugenhagen studied the Planet for years in order to be able to hear the Planet. By the way, Holy only called one person in the whole game, and that was Aerith. And by a startling coincidence, Aerith is the only Cetra left. Why didn't it call to Bugenhagen?

He wasn't wearing it in his hair.



Suddenly, Cloud saw Sephiroth kill two people with his Masamune. We watch a movie of Sephiroth walking away with flames all over the place. Cloud then proceeds to the Mako Reactor. He saw Tifa's father's dead.
Tifa: Papa... Sephiroth!? Sephiroth did this to you, didn't he!?
Sephiroth... SOLDIER... Mako Reactors... Shinra... Everything! I hate
them all!
Tifa took the Masamune and ran. As Cloud head to the reactor section...
Sephiroth: Mother, I'm here to see you. Please, open this door.
Tifa: How could you do that to papa and all the townspeople?
Tifa attempted to slash Sephiroth with the Masamune but Sephiroth took the sword from her and slashed her. Then Sephiroth went inside the room with Jenova. Cloud helped the wounded Tifa.

Masamune is a sword. Only Sephiroth could wield it meant he was the only one strong enough to actually use it effectively. Anyone could pick it up, but is would be too big to be useful. Just like anybody could hold the White Materia, but Aerith was the only one who could pray to the Planet and unlock Holy. Note that Sephiroth, unarmed, ambushed by Tifa, took the Masamune from Tifa without blinking. Furthermore, that whole sequence is based on Cloud's memories that Zack actually witnessed. It may not even be 100% accurate.

Doesn't matter. LO is a third person omniscient. It is canon.
I'd also like to see your source on 'Only Sephiroth can wield it.' This should be good. Especially since with a name like Masamune, it was almost certainly forged by the wutai, and not for Sephiroth.
By the way, how is any of this relevant to the point- and not my analogy- of battle equipability relevant to plot usability?


The following evidence comes from the site http://au.faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html. It was taken from a translation of the Ultimania guide. My thanks to you, Ryu Kaze.

**The White Materia: Holy** (005.3B)
The only means of opposing Meteor, the Ultimate White Magic was passed down amongst the Ancients. It is said that when an Ancient learns of Holy in the Forgotten Capital, prays at the water altar and their mind then links to the Planet, Holy is thereby put into operation. Passed down through the Ancients' generations, the White Materia came to Aerith from her mother, Ifalna, and she kept it hidden in a ribbon in her hair.

How exactly Holy applies its power once invoked and in operation is not
definite. It is simply known that "all that is bad for the Planet will
disappear."

(Accompanying screenshot caption)
As evidence of the Planet accepting Aerith's prayer, the White Materia laying on the water bed shines a pale green color. However, Holy's movement was being held back by the wicked will of Sephiroth, who had called Meteor.
------------------------
[Analysis: This section confirms what many who played the game believed: that Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to the City of the Ancients -- to which she felt herself being drawn -- and learned of it there, the same way that Bugenhagen later would.]
------------------------

Which doesn't actually prove "Only the Cetra may use said Overide/Abort", and completely fails to address the argument that if it is, they are the stupidest people in existence.
I also have to disagree with Ryu here. It does NOT actually confirm his conclusion. It actually does not mention her knowledge of Holy before being at the city. Now, it does not disprove that she was unaware before arrival, but it is not conclusive.
At best, it supports the concept that Aerith didn't know the will of the planet until she arrived at the altar.


Sephiroth, and only Sephiroth, could use Black Materia because he spent years in the Lifestream, and so gained all the knowledge of the Ancients. He would be able to use Holy as well, and Aerith could use Meteor, but why would they? There's your evidence. And for the record, it would not make Cetra stupid, but the Planet, since it created the White and Black Materia.

Actually, he learned how to use the black materia by reading the instructions inside the temple of the ancients. Though even if your assertion here is true (which actually contains no evidence, despite you saying it does), it bears out MY argument, that it is the knowledge of the use, and nothing else, that allows one to use Materia.
And the Planet formed an intricate hewn temple temple staffed by the lingering conciousnesses of dead Cetra devoted to staffing the place. Riiiight. Now pull the other one. It's got bells on.


The chance of Deathblow working may be low, but if she uses it many times, which she can thanks to GG, the chance of it working just once rises exponentially.

And it only needs to be used once on Tifa's end for her to win.
Tifa wins init, uses deathblow, Aerith doesn't even get a chance to GG. That's without the sneak attack being put into play.


Wrong again. Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she only knew what the Planet was telling her.

And? Even if true, how does this go contrary to the concept of "Do not put my friends in unnecessary danger"?


Except for White and Black Materia. They are very different to normal Materia. Do some research.

Show me some evidence, instead. You claim Meteor and Holy require special activation. Prove it. We've got a secondary source and Aerith, who you, by the way, are now indirectly claiming didn't know what she was talking about when she sent the message to Cloud.


Because Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she said that because the White Materia, when calling to her, told her that. Aerith may not be infallible, but the Planet is.

But she wasn't at the city of the ancients when she sent the message. So she's not been told that information yet, by your argument.

[DrthTater]

Aerith would win hands down. Being a zombie and all.


BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAINNSSSSSSSSS!

[Firo Volondé]

Wrong, my good sir. CANON agrees with Wikipedia.

Prove it.

I don't need to, because you still haven't offered any evidence that anything quoted from Wikipedia is wrong.



And still, you refuse to deny my original statement, about humans being the Cetra who stopped listening to the planet. Before you scoff at Wikipedia, please porvide some evidence as to why it's wrong.

Because it IS wrong. The cetra are not unique in their ability to listen to the planet.

In the statement you're trying to disprove, "unique ability" means that no non-Cetra in FF7 is born with the ability to listen to the Planet. Name one non-Cetra that was born with the ability to hear the Planet. Please.



Bugenhagen studied the Planet for years in order to be able to hear the Planet. By the way, Holy only called one person in the whole game, and that was Aerith. And by a startling coincidence, Aerith is the only Cetra left. Why didn't it call to Bugenhagen?

He wasn't wearing it in his hair.

Exactly. And how did it get in Aeris' hair? Ifalna gave it to her. Why not give it to someone like Bugenhagen? Because she knew that only Cetra could use it.




Suddenly, Cloud saw Sephiroth kill two people with his Masamune. We watch a movie of Sephiroth walking away with flames all over the place. Cloud then proceeds to the Mako Reactor. He saw Tifa's father's dead.
Tifa: Papa... Sephiroth!? Sephiroth did this to you, didn't he!?
Sephiroth... SOLDIER... Mako Reactors... Shinra... Everything! I hate
them all!
Tifa took the Masamune and ran. As Cloud head to the reactor section...
Sephiroth: Mother, I'm here to see you. Please, open this door.
Tifa: How could you do that to papa and all the townspeople?
Tifa attempted to slash Sephiroth with the Masamune but Sephiroth took the sword from her and slashed her. Then Sephiroth went inside the room with Jenova. Cloud helped the wounded Tifa.

Masamune is a sword. Only Sephiroth could wield it meant he was the only one strong enough to actually use it effectively. Anyone could pick it up, but is would be too big to be useful. Just like anybody could hold the White Materia, but Aerith was the only one who could pray to the Planet and unlock Holy. Note that Sephiroth, unarmed, ambushed by Tifa, took the Masamune from Tifa without blinking. Furthermore, that whole sequence is based on Cloud's memories that Zack actually witnessed. It may not even be 100% accurate.

Doesn't matter. LO is a third person omniscient. It is canon.
I'd also like to see your source on 'Only Sephiroth can wield it.' This should be good. Especially since with a name like Masamune, it was almost certainly forged by the wutai, and not for Sephiroth.
By the way, how is any of this relevant to the point- and not my analogy- of battle equipability relevant to plot usability?

My source is the people you mentioned in this quote:

Do I have to repeat my request that you explain how it not being battle equippable means no one can use it? For the longest time, people claimed only Sephiroth could use Masamune, when the canon evidence of Tifa picking it up and swinging it at him is right in front of them?
Also, the instruction manual says "His giant sword which only he can handle". Masamune is the name of his sword because almost every Final Fantasy game has a sword named Masamune. It is not meant to have a history behind it. If I'm wrong, and if it was forged by the wutai, most likely Shinra authorised the sword for Sephiroth's use. It is not relevant, you brought up the Masamune using the above statement.



Sephiroth, and only Sephiroth, could use Black Materia because he spent years in the Lifestream, and so gained all the knowledge of the Ancients. He would be able to use Holy as well, and Aerith could use Meteor, but why would they? There's your evidence. And for the record, it would not make Cetra stupid, but the Planet, since it created the White and Black Materia.

Actually, he learned how to use the black materia by reading the instructions inside the temple of the ancients. Though even if your assertion here is true (which actually contains no evidence, despite you saying it does), it bears out MY argument, that it is the knowledge of the use, and nothing else, that allows one to use Materia.
And the Planet formed an intricate hewn temple temple staffed by the lingering conciousnesses of dead Cetra devoted to staffing the place. Riiiight. Now pull the other one. It's got bells on.

Mr. Game Script?

Cloud picked up the Black Materia.
Cloud: Mmm? Can you guys use it?
Aeris: Nope, we can't use it right now. You need great spiritual power
to use it.
Cloud: You mean lots of Spiritual energy?
Aeris: That's right. One person's power alone won't do it. Somewhere
special. Where there's plenty of the Planet's energy... Oh yeah! The
Promised Land!!
Cloud: The Promised Land!! No, but...
Aeris: Sephiroth is different. He's not an Ancient.
Cloud: He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.
Sephiroth: ...Ah, but I have. I'm far superior to the Ancients. I
became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients. And soon, I will create the future.

Two things I worked out from that passage:
1) The Black Materia can't be used unless you have great Spiritual energy. No one person has enough. You need access to plenty of the planet's energy, a.k.a. the Lifestream.
2) Sephiroth gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients from travelling the Lifestream. That is when he started his plan to use the Black Materia, which was what I meant to say. Note my post never says he learned to use it in the Lifestream.



Except for White and Black Materia. They are very different to normal Materia. Do some research.

Show me some evidence, instead. You claim Meteor and Holy require special activation. Prove it.

I believe it was you who said:

Disagree. Holy was using Aerith to be cast, Aerith just went along with it.
Name one other Materia that does that? I'd call that special activation.



Because Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she said that because the White Materia, when calling to her, told her that. Aerith may not be infallible, but the Planet is.

But she wasn't at the city of the ancients when she sent the message. So she's not been told that information yet, by your argument.

Yes she was. She sent that message, according to Cloud's words, "after I handed the Black Materia to Sephiroth", so even if she wasn't there, she was still being led by WM.

[MJN SEIFER]

Aeris was there much longer. It was a joint Effort between her and the WM. She was "Chosen" so to speak.

It's very similar to how Sephiroth was situated in the Crater - the only difference is that he doesn't have the materia yet.


This is all I'll say for now as I'll make the thread go off topic if I do.

[sir helix]

i thank cloud should bang em both
yeehaa

[Ryushikaze]

I don't need to, because you still haven't offered any evidence that anything quoted from Wikipedia is wrong.

And you have provided no evidence that your claim is correct. Burden of Proof and such.
And would you like to know why Wiki is worthless as an authoritative source? 1- It's a third hand source, at best. 2- Anyone can edit it. Leading to 3- When controversy arises the moderation staff is more concerned with compromising and 'non partisan reporting' than with actual accuracy. Besides all this, if you want to tell me your third party source is accurate, show me the first party passage they are citing.


In the statement you're trying to disprove, "unique ability" means that no non-Cetra in FF7 is born with the ability to listen to the Planet. Name one non-Cetra that was born with the ability to hear the Planet. Please.

An interesting, if ultimately worthless, goalpost shift, since the statement doesn't actually say that. It doesn't even MENTION the word birth. Nice try though. Don't do it again.


Exactly. And how did it get in Aeris' hair? Ifalna gave it to her. Why not give it to someone like Bugenhagen? Because she knew that only Cetra could use it.

Or because Aerith was her daughter, she gave it to her in an emergency, and/or didn't know Bugenhagen. I mean seriously. Your non sequitors are getting more and more ridiculous. Care to provide evidence for your assertion? Didn't think so.
Ilfana, BTW


My source is the people you mentioned in this quote:

Do I have to repeat my request that you explain how it not being battle equippable means no one can use it? For the longest time, people claimed only Sephiroth could use Masamune, when the canon evidence of Tifa picking it up and swinging it at him is right in front of them?

So your "source" is mindless fanboys. Check.


Also, the instruction manual says "His giant sword which only he can handle". Masamune is the name of his sword because almost every Final Fantasy game has a sword named Masamune. It is not meant to have a history behind it. If I'm wrong, and if it was forged by the wutai, most likely Shinra authorised the sword for Sephiroth's use. It is not relevant, you brought up the Masamune using the above statement.

I brought it up as an example of people having stupid unfounded brainbugs, like the WM brainbug. I'd also like to note that, again, you've cited a 'source' that is directly opposed by the canon, and the canon wins that battle.
Addendum: "It's not supposed to have a history" is begging author's intent, and means you Fail Suspension of Disbelief 101. Though it does bring up the question- Why would Wutai build a sword for the star soldier of their enemy in war?
Please do not use this aside as an excuse to avoid answering the primary point, as you did before.


-snip the game script-
Two things I worked out from that passage:

1) The Black Materia can't be used unless you have great Spiritual energy. No one person has enough. You need access to plenty of the planet's energy, a.k.a. the Lifestream.

Well, grab me a Mako reactor and let's cast us a deathmissile.


2) Sephiroth gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients from travelling the Lifestream. That is when he started his plan to use the Black Materia, which was what I meant to say. Note my post never says he learned to use it in the Lifestream.


Sephiroth, and only Sephiroth, could use Black Materia because he spent years in the Lifestream, and so gained all the knowledge of the Ancients.

QED. Again, however, still bears out my "It is knowledge, not genetics, that allows one to use the damn thing"




Except for White and Black Materia. They are very different to normal Materia. Do some research.

Show me some evidence, instead. You claim Meteor and Holy require special activation. Prove it.

I believe it was you who said:

Disagree. Holy was using Aerith to be cast, Aerith just went along with it.
Name one other Materia that does that? I'd call that special activation.

A big glowing Neon "CAST ME" isn't special activation, though I will admit I was too anthropomorphic in my original description.
Alright, let's put this simply- the White Materia is an OVERRIDE/ABORT device. That means its purpose it to counteract the Launch of our superweapon, the Black Materia. It's like the shut down code for a missile launch. If you insert it before the missile is ready, the system still processes it, but since the conditions are already where the shut down is supposed to arrive at, no overall effect occurs. However, once the Black Materia is loosed, you now have the preparation for missile launch in place, with the missile on the table. From this point on, up intil the launch of the missile (and possibly even a few seconds afterwards, before it gets enough thrust), the shut down code will work, since its purpose to change a ready state to an abort state, is now possible to be completed. Holy wanting to be cast, in this analogy, is the equivalent computer AI saying "XX:XX until launch. Please insert shut down code A32"
To use another example of why Using Holy in the wrong situation results in nothing- You cast revive on a living party member. You succesfully cast, but nothing happens, because that party member is already in the state revive is supposed to restore them to.




Because Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she said that because the White Materia, when calling to her, told her that. Aerith may not be infallible, but the Planet is.

But she wasn't at the city of the ancients when she sent the message. So she's not been told that information yet, by your argument.

Yes she was. She sent that message, according to Cloud's words, "after I handed the Black Materia to Sephiroth", so even if she wasn't there, she was still being led by WM.

Can you even keep consistent with your argument? You said she didn't know anything about Holy til she was at the city of the ancients. I point out that the message was sent before she arrived. And now you're saying that she knew because the White Materia was leading her, despite just a moment ago, in WHAT I QUOTED, you were saying she knew nothing til she arrived.


Aeris was there much longer. It was a joint Effort between her and the WM. She was "Chosen" so to speak.

It's very similar to how Sephiroth was situated in the Crater - the only difference is that he doesn't have the materia yet.

This is all I'll say for now as I'll make the thread go off topic if I do.

So make another Topic and provide some evidence for your claim. Please note the importance of the second half of the first sentence.

[f f freak]

How did this debate about Holy start? This is just going way off topic.

[Carl the Llama]

well obviously someone made a thread with Aerith in it, dont you know if it has Aerith in it it always ends up someone bashing her, and we the loyal Aerith fans have to defend her.

[Ryushikaze]

How did this debate about Holy start? This is just going way off topic.

I made a comment that Aerith sans Holy was not a threat to Sephiroth's initial plot. Some people took it personally.


well obviously someone made a thread with Aerith in it, dont you know if it has Aerith in it it always ends up someone bashing her, and we the loyal Aerith fans have to defend her.

That you view it as a matter of defense of bashing rather than setting the record straight regarding ignorance is somewhat telling.

[Firo Volondé]

How did this debate about Holy start? This is just going way off topic.

Agreed.


I made a comment that Aerith sans Holy was not a threat to Sephiroth's initial plot. Some people took it personally.

Frankly, that's the only point I care about. This argument is going down too many side-paths. So let's keep it nice and simple. Aerith was the one who was a threat in Sephiroth's opinion, and in conjunction with Holy, she saved the planet. Remember at the end of the game, when Holy couldn't destroy Meteor, the Lifestream (led by Aeirth and others) rose up to help Holy destroy Meteor.


That you view it as a matter of defense of bashing rather than setting the record straight regarding ignorance is somewhat telling.

I consider it the latter.

[Ryushikaze]

I made a comment that Aerith sans Holy was not a threat to Sephiroth's initial plot. Some people took it personally.

Frankly, that's the only point I care about. This argument is going down too many side-paths. So let's keep it nice and simple. Aerith was the one who was a threat in Sephiroth's opinion, and in conjunction with Holy, she saved the planet. Remember at the end of the game, when Holy couldn't destroy Meteor, the Lifestream (led by Aeirth and others) rose up to help Holy destroy Meteor.

Concession accepted on all my above points you did not address.
And no. Holy was the threat. Without it, Aerith was far less, as Sephi would be minused Meteor.
And saying "Aerith saved the planet" at the end of the game is such a shafting of the innumerable others who helped push and guide the tendrils of the lifstream that it's not even funny.


I consider it the latter.

Well, you seem to be doing a bit of a poor job of it.

[Levian]

Knock it off, blitz_king10 and Ryushikaze. :p If you want to argue about something besides the topic, please keep it in a PM. Also, quit the personal attacks. There's no need for that.

[Crossblades]

Let's be serious, Tifa would pound Aerith into the ground.

More like pound her straight to Hell

[MasterX]

Yeah, this is AERIS versing TIFA, so Holy can let the fight happen without giving a care. This personal feud is way, way, WAY beneath Holy, so let's not take Holy into account in future posts. Thank you. I will also include that I will exclude any Materia, not just Holy. We will not take speed into account unless it equals one another. We will also assume that attack/defense or any other important status is also rivaled. We'll also assume they have their final limit breaks and they have full limit bars, health and perfect status. The effect of weapons/armour will not be taken into account.

I may be an Aeris fan, but I see how Tifa can have the upper-hand, have 7 consecutive attacks on her hands. Yes, one attack after another would heavily damage Aeris and possibly KOing her. IF, and I do mean if, Tifa happens to go first and pulls up criticals or WOW! throughout her Limit Break.

That's how you Tifa fans plan to side with Tifa on this one, but I will explain the other possibilities during their duel.

Great Gospel has many effects, such as full ressurection of any lost HP/MP and grants temparary invincibility to the party, in this case, Aeris. If Tifa were to not succeed in her attempt to take down Aeris, it would be game for Aeris. Let me explain.

Assuming Tifa DOESN'T take out Aeris with her fancy combo, whether it be a row of misses (yes, Tifa fans, that could happen) or just happens to ALMOST KO her, Aeris can fully revive herself with the Great Gospel, giving herself oppurtunity to put in attack after attack after attack. Tifa can try and defend, but this won't change the fact that Aeris will win. If Tifa gets hit enough, she'll gain another Final Heaven to barrage Aeris with and can either almost knock her out or do next to nothing, what with the MISS included in her roulette (except in Beat Rush). If history repeats itself, Aeris will gain her precious Limit Break and repeat, therefore placing my utmost faith in our holy Ancient.

Can't call me a liar, because I'm actually using facts to determine the end result, unlike you guys who're sayin' "Aeris will summon Holy to crush Tifa!" or "Tifa will pound Aeris all the way to Hell." For shame to those people. If you see ANY flaws in my presentation, let me know.

[Pure Aerisbeauty7]

Aeris would win. She has strong healing and protecting magic. She also has the White Materia.

[Timerk]

I think people underestimate how powerful Aeris was, I mean, she was the one in the party Sephi was worried about, not Cloud.

Sephypoo was worried about Holy. Not Aerith.

Isn't that basically the same thing?

Yes, Aeris was the only one in the party who could summon Holy, that is why she got stabbed. If Sephiroth was really worried about the White Materia after he killed her, he just would have had Cloud bring it to him along with the Black Materia. Also, in the ending, Marlene says she can sense Aeris when Holy arrives, which I took to as it was Aeris personal connection with the planet that allowed Holy to be summoned.

I can't imagine Cid summoning Holy.

[Ryushikaze]

Isn't that basically the same thing?

Yes, Aeris was the only one in the party who could summon Holy, that is why she got stabbed.

I'm not disagreeing that she was the only one who could do it then. What I am disagreeing with is the concept that it was somehow limited to just being cast by the cetra, instead of anyone with the knowledge and will to cast it.


If Sephiroth was really worried about the White Materia after he killed her, he just would have had Cloud bring it to him along with the Black Materia.

Well, it kind of fell into the water and sank in the ancient city, so that's kind of not an option.


Also, in the ending, Marlene says she can sense Aeris when Holy arrives, which I took to as it was Aeris personal connection with the planet that allowed Holy to be summoned.

Well, Aerith's will was the one that called forth Holy, same as Sephy's called forth Meteor. I don't see why that means her connection was a necessity for it to be cast, though.


I can't imagine Cid summoning Holy.

He doesn't seem the type to cast it either, especially based on his speech before the crater, but I do not believe it's impossible for him to cast it, since I don't think the cetra are complete smegheads who would be so foolish as to put an 'us only' limiter on the counter device to a horrible destructive force that could inflict massive damage on the planet they tended and venerated.

[Timerk]

Isn't that basically the same thing?

Yes, Aeris was the only one in the party who could summon Holy, that is why she got stabbed.

I'm not disagreeing that she was the only one who could do it then. What I am disagreeing with is the concept that it was somehow limited to just being cast by the cetra, instead of anyone with the knowledge and will to cast it.

It is unclear, but I believe to summon Holy, you would have to develop a relationship with the planet that was the same as the relationship the Cetra had with the planet. That means a non-Cetra would have to be very much devoted to the planet, and love the planet, in order to summon Holy. I don't think it would be possible for anyone in the party to be that way (except maybe Red XIII, but not at the time of the game, though).


If Sephiroth was really worried about the White Materia after he killed her, he just would have had Cloud bring it to him along with the Black Materia.


Well, it kind of fell into the water and sank in the ancient city, so that's kind of not an option.

The Black Materia was pretty tucked away too, and Sephi still managed to get it. I would say that if he really thought the White Materia would stop him, than he would have found a way to get it and destroy it.

Sephi had a very low opinion of people who did not come from the Cetra, so I think that even if someone could summon Holy other than Aeris, he wouldn't think it would be Cloud or the party. He prolly thought they were too stupid to figure out how to use it.


Also, in the ending, Marlene says she can sense Aeris when Holy arrives, which I took to as it was Aeris personal connection with the planet that allowed Holy to be summoned.


Well, Aerith's will was the one that called forth Holy, same as Sephy's called forth Meteor. I don't see why that means her connection was a necessity for it to be cast, though.

Maybe, but I don't think they would have put that line in if it wasn't important. If nothing else, it shows Aeris spirit was in Holy, which would seem to make Holy more than a generic spell anyone could case.


I can't imagine Cid summoning Holy.


He doesn't seem the type to cast it either, especially based on his speech before the crater, but I do not believe it's impossible for him to cast it, since I don't think the cetra are complete smegheads who would be so foolish as to put an 'us only' limiter on the counter device to a horrible destructive force that could inflict massive damage on the planet they tended and venerated.

Ah, but could the Cetra have been so overconfident that they never thought they would be wiped out? Or perhaps they did not see the world becoming a place so hostile to the planet? Or maybe the felt that once they were gone, anyone left to summon Meteor did not deserve to be saved?

Regardless, I believe it requires a very strong spirtuality to summon Holy, and everyone in the party didn't have that.

[Northcrest]

Let's be serious, Tifa would pound Aerith into the ground.

I totally agree with Zeromus on this I mean come on Tifa smak major booty just by doing all of her Limit Breaks. Unlike Aeris well yeah she can cure herself and do magic but big whoop Tifa could always counter those.

[saturna]

Yuffie would come along and knock them both out :P

[Ryushikaze]

It is unclear, but I believe to summon Holy, you would have to develop a relationship with the planet that was the same as the relationship the Cetra had with the planet. That means a non-Cetra would have to be very much devoted to the planet, and love the planet, in order to summon Holy. I don't think it would be possible for anyone in the party to be that way (except maybe Red XIII, but not at the time of the game, though).

There's also Bugenhagen. In any case, my arguments have been against the idea that Aerith was the only one able due to her being a cetra (which is actually more a lifestyle than anything else), and that anyone else, regardless of capability, could not cast it, as has been suggested.


The Black Materia was pretty tucked away too, and Sephi still managed to get it. I would say that if he really thought the White Materia would stop him, than he would have found a way to get it and destroy it.

The black materia was still accessible by relatively normal methods. Not so for the white one.
He DID try and stop holy as it was being cast, and as fomented in the lifestream, so he did believe it was a threat. He just couldn't uncast it.


Sephi had a very low opinion of people who did not come from the Cetra, so I think that even if someone could summon Holy other than Aeris, he wouldn't think it would be Cloud or the party. He prolly thought they were too stupid to figure out how to use it.

Sephiroth had a low opinion of everyone but himself and professor Gast, and I'm not so sure that the latter opinion held.


Maybe, but I don't think they would have put that line in if it wasn't important. If nothing else, it shows Aeris spirit was in Holy, which would seem to make Holy more than a generic spell anyone could case.

This doesn't follow. Perhaps if, say, Cid had somehow managed to cast it, it would resonate with his spirit, instead.


Ah, but could the Cetra have been so overconfident that they never thought they would be wiped out? Or perhaps they did not see the world becoming a place so hostile to the planet? Or maybe the felt that once they were gone, anyone left to summon Meteor did not deserve to be saved?

All possible. All unlike the picture we have been shown of them, however. Especially since Meteor would hurt the planet as well, not just the people on it.


Regardless, I believe it requires a very strong spirtuality to summon Holy, and everyone in the party didn't have that.

Fair enough, though still unsubstantiated. There really isn't enough on the subject to draw from.

[arcanedude34]

Tifa, obviously. Shes a martial artist. Aerith is a flower girl.

Besides, Tifas hotter.

EDIT- Oh, Im sorry. I thought that this was the Tifa/Aerith fight thread, not the white materia/sephiroth/ancient thread.


BTW- for any dunderhead who cant tell, that was sarcasm.