For you launchies, a month later

[Roto13]

For all of us who bought this game on launch day. What do you think? Now that you've had the time to play it a lot, and the initial thrill has worn off, how do you feel about it? Is it still the best of the generation?

If you didn't get this on or near launch, please say so in your post.

[ekkatin]

I got it on launch day

honestly I feel like this has been discussed many times on here already, but basically, I think the story in this game is very lacking. The gameplay is fun, and what really makes me want to continue, which is different than most of the other FF's. In others the story was the main thing that made me keep going. Not that the gameplay wasn't good, it was awesome. but the story is really what drove me to continue. I have absolutely no emotional envolvement in the story and characters of XII.

Don't get me wrong I am highly enjoying the game (I'd hope so for being ~125hrs in) But what got me into FF in the first place were the stories, there was a sense of epicness (is that a word?) that is def not in XII.

[Aerio]

I got it on release day.

Honestly though, I'm not a big fan of this Final Fantasy. Don't get me wrong, it was fun and I enjoyed some of the characters. The story though... It just didn't do much for me. I didn't even realise I was at the final stage of the game at first. I was still waiting for the story to make some amazing turn and develop the characters more. I often felt like I could read the same story from a history book. It doesn't seem like some aspects were explained as much as other FFs too. Where did this come from, or why doesn't this do this? Sorry, I'm being vague to avoid using spoiler tags. It was just a very shallow game story wise.

It also seems like the characters don't interact with anyone besides their "buddies" throughout the story. How often did Basch talk to Penelo really? Or Ashe to Fran? It seems like Vaan talks to everyone, but the others don't. Penelo talks to Balthier, Fran, and Vaan. Ashe talks to Balthier and Basch. Basch talks to Ashe. The characters never seem to bond. Now, I know there are times when the characters interact more, but this is just a general feel of the game. Who knows, maybe I am use to the most recent FFs on console (X and X-2) where there was a cutscene every five minutes, but it seems that there were more character bondings in the predecessors as well.

Oh well, I still enjoyed it. I was just hoping for a fun, interesting story. I guess maybe I'm just numbed down to ordinary "save the kingdom" games because of all these extravagant story lines people push out these days. Like...dreams comming to life...or time traveling witches. Even alien life forms from meteors who make crazy babies with silver hair (I know, thats off a bit, don't kill me). The MAGIC is what was missing from this game. The magicite appearently had this awesome power of magic...but all I ever saw magicite doing is blowing up like a nuclear bomb. It just seemed like reading the pages of a history book, which I think is what they intended to a degree. I've just repeated myself for the last 5 minutes, so I'll shut up now.

Laters. Oh, and I'm one of those crazy kids who enjoyed FFX... So you'll probably ignore my post now :P

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

honestly I feel like this has been discussed many times on here already, but basically, I think the story in this game is very lacking. The gameplay is fun, and what really makes me want to continue, which is different than most of the other FF's. In others the story was the main thing that made me keep going. Not that the gameplay wasn't good, it was awesome. but the story is really what drove me to continue. I have absolutely no emotional envolvement in the story and characters of XII.

Don't get me wrong I am highly enjoying the game (I'd hope so for being ~125hrs in) But what got me into FF in the first place were the stories, there was a sense of epicness (is that a word?) that is def not in XII.On the contrary, the story has been my main motivation in this game. It's breaking my heart to ignore it while I wrap up all these end-game side-quests.

And yes, this is definitely the best installment of this generation by far. And in terms of the entire series, it's up there with FFVI and FFIX.

[Meimeiken]

12:01 October 31...


Anyways, I really enjoyed the game. I thought that the story was good, however; not as good as a couple other games. In my opinion, the gameplay was excellent. Depending on how much effort you wanted to put in, the game could be tailored to your skill as a gamer. I was a little sad about the summons not being as effective as one could have hoped, but I got over it. Contradictory to many other opinions, I wasn't a huge fan of quickenings(waste all my mp for something that, in my case, was not very effective at all). Then again, I really liked VIII,X, and XI.

I leave you to valuate my opinion.

-Adam

[ekkatin]

honestly I feel like this has been discussed many times on here already, but basically, I think the story in this game is very lacking. The gameplay is fun, and what really makes me want to continue, which is different than most of the other FF's. In others the story was the main thing that made me keep going. Not that the gameplay wasn't good, it was awesome. but the story is really what drove me to continue. I have absolutely no emotional envolvement in the story and characters of XII.

Don't get me wrong I am highly enjoying the game (I'd hope so for being ~125hrs in) But what got me into FF in the first place were the stories, there was a sense of epicness (is that a word?) that is def not in XII.On the contrary, the story has been my main motivation in this game. It's breaking my heart to ignore it while I wrap up all these end-game side-quests.

And yes, this is definitely the best installment of this generation by far. And in terms of the entire series, it's up there with FFVI and FFIX.
fair enough, to each their own. Maybe I'll apreciate the story more on the second play. (which I'm sure won't be for quite a while)

[Slothy]

On the contrary, the story has been my main motivation in this game. It's breaking my heart to ignore it while I wrap up all these end-game side-quests.

And yes, this is definitely the best installment of this generation by far. And in terms of the entire series, it's up there with FFVI and FFIX.

Agreed. The political intrigue present in this story trumps most other stories in just about any game I've played in a while and more than makes up for the somewhat lacking (though far from non-existent) character development. Throw in some of the best gameplay I've found in any RPG and you have a total package that adds up to the best RPG I've played since FFIX at the very least, possibly since FFVI (my favourite game of all time).

I got it the day it came out by the way.

[Roto13]

The XII story is fascinating to me, even if it does lack the emotional attachment to the characters that games like IX and X have. It's a different kind of story and it's well done.

[Timerk]

On the contrary, the story has been my main motivation in this game. It's breaking my heart to ignore it while I wrap up all these end-game side-quests.

What is it about the story that has you enthralled so?

Personally, I didn't really have any interest in futhering the plot much, apart from the side bit with Balthier and Dr. Cid. Aside from that, the whole Basch/Vaan/Gabranth thing never got paid off, and the main plot of Ashe seeking vengence never got off the ground. For me, there wasn't a driving issue that kept the plot moving, and the only villians who got much of a chance to shine were Bergen and Dr. Cid. There were only maybe one or two points in the whole game where I felt 'if I don't win this battle the world is going to come to an end,' and you could count the number of epic moments on one hand. In my opinion, Final Fantasy games should be huge in scope and emotion, not driven by political drama. Apart from Fran and Balthier, I don't really think any of the other characters have staying power; Ashe is too glum and none of the others got any time to shine (why was Penelo there again?).

Even with all that, I still think FFXII is a great game, but to cite it's plot as a plus...I don't get it.

[Cruise Control]

were only maybe one or two points in the whole game where I felt 'if I don't win this battle the world is going to come to an end,' and you could count the number of epic moments on one hand.Thats because for once in the series, the world doesn't really hinge on you. Your just part of a larger force, although an effective part.

I got it on launch day, and must say, it has my favorite story ever. My second favorite (10 just had this aura of uberness sorrounding it).

[Miriel]

The XII story is fascinating to me, even if it does lack the emotional attachment to the characters that games like IX and X have. It's a different kind of story and it's well done.

Dude. Head. on. nail.

I love the storyline although I don't have as strong of an attachment as I did with IX. I love some of the characters, definitely, but I don't like, "omg <3" them.

I think the plot is FFXII's best feature. It's what's keeping me hooked. The battle system with gambits and everything is too automated for my liking, and I miss having characters with individual strengths and weaknesses. The way I've been playing, all the characters will eventually have virtually all the license grid spots opened to them. It makes things a lot less unique, and I don't really like that. I do however like seeing monsters on screen instead of the random battles. And I think adding battle chains to the game was a definite plus. Too many dungeons and tombs for my liking especially since I don't usually like dungeons AT ALL, and there are certainly quite a few in this game. The voice-acting was superb and I don't think there was a single voice I disliked.

So yeah, it's a pretty great game. But again, not as much emotional attachment as I would have liked. The game seemed more... distint to me if that makes any sense. But maybe that's just me and the fact that I've been trying to play this game through midterms and finals (not a smart thing to do btw).

[Lynx]

And yes, this is definitely the best installment of this generation by far. And in terms of the entire series, it's up there with FFVI and FFIX.

i agree with that completely.

FFVI and FFIX were my 2 favorites and FFXII is ranking up there. all though i dont find myself emotionally attached all that much in the game i still find the storyline great. i find myself wanting to do hunts but at the sametime wondering where the storyline is going to go. i can see so many possible paths for it to go keeps me on edge. the characters are interesting too. the battle system is fun and i only ever run when im about to die. i look for rare game enemys go on hunts steal from everything and poach every once in awhile. for me every aspect of the game is fun.

i got the game on launch day.

[Dell]

I........LOVE THIS GAME!!!! It quickly beat IX as my favourite Final Fantasy. But IX is still close to XII. :)

Everything is just wonderful! It'll never bores me. The story, music, graphic and gameplay = WIN MY HEART. I like all of the characters and espers. I even like them above Shiva, Ifrit etc.
This is the game for me.

I got the game on 9th October (AND DON'T QUOTE ME ON THIS).

[Wolf Kanno]

I got it on launch day.

I've been thoroughly enjoying this game. It was the fresh breath of air I felt the series really needed. Less flashy cutscenes, a deep political story that borrows from the greatest stories in real history. A party that doesn't necessarily like or trust each other (I hate it when the game tries to make you believe your party should be the "best of buddies" it's so unrealistic.) And for once, you didn't have to worry about the world ending and supposedly "you're the only that can save us!" which I also feel is unrealistic.

The gameplay is wonderful and fun once you get the hang of things. My only real complaint was the fact that treasure chests are randomized a bit...

I love the cast and story and I'm glad that no one has given me their damn sob story of their past. The story is historically epic and I like the sense of realism to the game. The world itself is the crowning jewel. There is so much wonderful detail.

If anything, this game has restored my faith in the Final Fantasy series. FFX was such a disappointment to me that I almost thought about giving up the series. FFX-2 pretty much killed my belief that SE could ever make a game like FFIV, VI, and IX. With Sakeguchi gone, I didn't think SE could ever make another good game with FF in the title but this has restored my faith to some extent. It is definetly the best in this generation.

[Raistlin]

The story of FF12 starts picking up after a while (a looong while). Before that, it was nonexistent. I still don't think the story is anything special, but it is better than my original opinion (which was "crap"). Or maybe it's just because I've played the Suikoden series, who does the "deep, political plot" oh so much better. FF12's story is a poor man's Suikoden V. Also, the character development is still crap.

However, you don't play this game for the character development. The gameplay is still great.

[ekkatin]

However, you don't play this game for the character development. The gameplay is still great.
I agree, this one for me is all about the gameplay.

[Timerk]

However, you don't play this game for the character development. The gameplay is still great.

An interesting comment about an RPG.

I don't blame Square for wanting to make an action game, but don't call it Final Fantasy.

[Roto13]

However, you don't play this game for the character development. The gameplay is still great.
I don't blame Square for wanting to make an action game, but don't call it Final Fantasy.
Action game? You can fight without pressing any buttons. Don't play Devil May Cry or Viewtiful Joe. Your head will explode.

[Timerk]

What does that have to do with it being an action game? Just because the gambit system is new, doesn't mean it does not fit into that genre. Besides, in KH you don't control Donald and Goofy, two-thirds of the party, and that game is considered an action RPG by many. The difference is that KH has a ton more story than FF, and you can give AI to all three party members in FF instead of just two in KH.

[Roto13]

What does that have to do with it being an action game? Just because the gambit system is new, doesn't mean it does not fit into that genre. Besides, in KH you don't control Donald and Goofy, two-thirds of the party, and that game is considered an action RPG by many. The difference is that KH has a ton more story than FF, and you can give AI to all three party members in FF instead of just two in KH.

You still control Sora, though. And directly, not just through menu selections. The fact that there's actually less direct control over the character in this game than in almost any other RPG means it's not an action game.

[Timerk]

Someone could choose to play through FFXII without using gambits and controlling the characters directly, and doing that would make the game more user intensive than KH.

FFXII plays more like a hack and slash adventure game that an rpg, and the lack of character motivation doesn't help. I think the FF stands more for Final Fight than Final Fantasy.

[XxSephirothxX]

It's still menu based, turn based combat. I don't think that can really qualify for a hack-and-slash. Sure, it would be intensive if you didn't use Gambits, but only time intensive--unless you had it on Active, in which case, yeah, it would be pretty hectic (and stupid) to try to control three characters simultaneously.

As for my opinion: I've really enjoyed it so far. I'm about 27 hours in, and probably have at least another 30 hours to put into the game, what with all the sidequests and places to explore. Maybe more than that. I really don't understand any complaints about the story being lacking, unless you've disliked the stories in every single Final Fantasy game. It's not much less complex than any of the previous plots, but it's handled in a much more adult fashion and has a different focus. All in all: the characters are solid, the gameplay is the best in ages, and the storyline is top-notch. Unless the plot simply stops after the point I'm at (Heading to the Empire for the first time) I honestly can't fathom anyone having an issue with the quantity or quality of plot devices contained in this game.

[Roto13]

You've got to be kidding me. Have you even played an action game before? You kind of sound like this is your first game that isn't a point and click RPG.

[Timerk]

I stand by my comparison to Final Fight: you go through the generic stage killing things that get in your way, then you kill the boss, then you move to the next level. I can't call it an rpg since only a handful of the characters and locations have any background detail.

The game it reminds me the most of is WoW, so if you want to call it an action rpg, I wouldn't complain.

[Khaotic]

As I've said countless times, I simply do not like it, to the point where I refuse to actually finish the game. The game, to me, is boring, the story to me is non-existant, the battle system is dull and boring(especially when someone has played FF11 since PC release) and I really don't like the characters.

I'm reluctant to buy a PS3 for Final Fantasy 13 when its released, I personally am not a fan of the new Final Fantasys, graphics were pretty and great at one point, but now they're nothing new, and the battle systems are non-traditional, and to me, take away what an RPG should be in terms of Final Fantasy. Change is good, but too much isn't.

[LunarWeaver]

I got it on launch day-ish, and overall I'm very pleased with it :jess: I'm glad the story is very different, I just wish there was more of it. In the end, I felt like the story was good but had been done before better in other games, so it's nothing special.

However, looked as an entire package, it's simply a solid entry through and through. Everything is really handled with care, and what plot and character interaction is there is memorable to me. Not my favorite, but they pulled off a good one.

[ffxatticus]

got it on launch day. though it was the greatest thing ever.
now that I've beat it, it's a piece of junk story line with good gameplay

[Wolf Kanno]

I would hardly consider this an "action game". An offline MMO yes, but definetly not an action game. The battle system gives off the illusion of being action based, but in reality, it's still pretty much the old turn base system when you really think about it. The only thing the free movement changes is how you target enemies and you now have AoE on magic. It's not like you can dodge attacks like you could in an action game. If an enemy is attacking a character, his attack will hit unless the enemy is killed or you run away from the battle (and assuming it never catches up with you), just like in the old ATB system. It's a far cry from KH and Star Ocean.

Also, I would argue that FFXII's world is the most well explained and thoroughly thought out world in all the FF's. Reading the description in the Beastiery explains alot about the area's you visit, the races you meet, and the history of the world. I prefer that over wasting a cutscene to have a character explain the place to me like FFX did... (Wait, I thought I was on a quest to save the world. Not a guided tour of all the vacation spots of Spira).

Hell the NPC's are actually relevant. They all actually keep up with what is going on in the world and most give you interesting tid-bits. I am still amazed at how interesting Reks is. The plot is definelty different and far more mature than past FF's. I believe they were really trying to go with a historic view when they wrote the plot. This may actually explain why there is little background explained about the party since it's generally irrelevant when put into old historical context. It's not about why they did it, it's about what they did.

Thinking back on previous titles, we never really got much backstory on most of the characters in previous FF's. VI,VII,and IX are the only exceptions, but all the other games gave you little backstory and generally relied on stereotypes to fill in the blanks. In FFVIII, only Squall, Laguna, and Rinoa are well developed. In FFX, it was Tidus, Auron, and Wakka. In FFXII, it seems to be Vaan, Ashe, and Balthier. Though I would argue that Basch belongs on this list as well.

For me, the plot and characters work for me. The plot is more reasonable and doesn't have to rely on cheap plot twists to make it intriguing. The character feel more realistic to me. They have issues from their pasts but everyone seems to have all ready come to terms with themselves. It's something that happened that makes them interesting, but it is no longer something that defines them.

[Slothy]

I stand by my comparison to Final Fight: you go through the generic stage killing things that get in your way, then you kill the boss, then you move to the next level.

You realize that describes essentially every RPG ever made? :p

Anyway, Wolf Kanno pretty much said it best. This is still very much a turn based battle system; just one that gives you some freedom in when, where, and how you choose to engage your opponents.

[Timerk]

I stand by my comparison to Final Fight: you go through the generic stage killing things that get in your way, then you kill the boss, then you move to the next level.

You realize that describes essentially every RPG ever made? :p


Every step of the way in FFX you got some backstory as to where you were, why you were fighting a certain boss, and how everything tied together. There are parts of FFXII where you will enter a new area, fight a boss, and leave without ever knowing WTF just happened. That was my point.

[Raistlin]

There are parts of FFXII where you will enter a new area, fight a boss, and leave without ever knowing WTF just happened.

Such as?

[Timerk]

All along the way, very few bosses are given context unless they figure into the main...I guess you could call it a storyline. Like many action games, the bosses in FFXII are simply there to give you something to do once you finish a level or area, I don't think it should really be that way in a series like FF which prides itself so much on telling a story,

[Tavrobel]

Reading boss bios in the Primer will explain most bosses, not that it reduces their WTF factor.

[Zeromus_X]

I got it a few days after the launch day (or maybe it was the day after launch? xD I don't remember). I was struggling along for awhile, but after getting to the third form of the final boss, I can say that I really enjoy this game. The storytelling is vastly different from the other FFs, but that's not a bad thing. I don't know why people are complaining that the characters don't have enough development, they aren't just brick walls. This isn't a novel, this is a video game. Go read a novel if you want characters that are as deep as a well. I personally found the characters' motivations pleasant enough, even if the story seems to focus on Ashe most of the time after awhile.

However, the real shining point of the game for me is it's exploration and atmosphere. The battle system is nice and everything, but the sheer expansiveness of the towns and dungeon areas is mind-blowing. And, alot of dungeons have great puzzles and very good surreal atmospheres (like the Great Crystal and the Pharos for example). There's also so much to do outside of the main story, I'm at 63 hours or so and I haven't even messed with any hunts or optional areas since the Lhusu mines.

The soundtrack is very nice. As some have mentioned before, some of the tunes aren't memorable. But compositionally, the music is of exceptional quality. The music fits the environments well, although I found the event music to be lacking as it just recycles different dungeon themes which I didn't think fit the drama of some particular moments. But besides that, this is a good Sakimoto soundtrack.

Anyway, I'm just currently getting LP for a few more licenses, then I'm going to try to beat the final boss again. I can't believe I missed Hastega. :/

[Timerk]

Reading boss bios in the Primer will explain most bosses, not that it reduces their WTF factor.

It is a reflection of the sloppy storytelling that the battles are not set up in the narrative, so the fact that they are in the primer just isn't enough.

[Raistlin]

All along the way, very few bosses are given context unless they figure into the main...I guess you could call it a storyline. Like many action games, the bosses in FFXII are simply there to give you something to do once you finish a level or area, I don't think it should really be that way in a series like FF which prides itself so much on telling a story,

But you said "there are parts of FFXII where you will enter a new area, fight a boss, and leave without ever knowing WTF just happened." Which is not true. Each dungeon is set up as to why you're going there, what you're going to try to do/find there, etc. So basically, you're just nitpicking because some of the bosses in the dungeons aren't given a bunch of backstory? The main bosses are developed; I couldn't care less if others along the way aren't. Those happen in every single RPG ever.

[Tavrobel]

It is a reflection of the sloppy storytelling that the battles are not set up in the narrative, so the fact that they are in the primer just isn't enough.

Neither are normal encounters (and almost all bosses for that matter) in most RPGs; should I start complaining that some random Rabbit isn't given a full backstory, explaining how it has to support its wife and children and has resorted to killing other Rabbits to survive because of a very twisted and needless biological imperative to survive by eating, sleeping, and reproducing? Yeah, because I want to hear everyone's life story, including the final boss.

I don't care about you. I want to kill you! I want to hit the X button after being guided by the D-Pad, mash the R2, Square, Triangle, and X buttons until my arm is bloody and dislocated, bash my controller into the ground when I can't one hit kill bosses, and drink your friggin blood. Because that's what we do: CRAB CAKES AND FOOTBALL RPG-ness.

[Timerk]

Every step of the way in FFX you got some backstory as to where you were, why you were fighting a certain boss, and how everything tied together. There are parts of FFXII where you will enter a new area, fight a boss, and leave without ever knowing WTF just happened. That was my point.

Like I said before, everywhere you went in FFX you got backstory as to why you were there, and detail about a couple of the characters. By comparison, most of FFXII is made up of generic fetch missions that don't really serve much purpose except to move you into the next area. I suppose it is subjective as to how much this bothers you, but that kind of mindless fighting/grinding does not appeal to me. Personally, the whole reason I love games like FF is that they create a cohesive world with history and context, the whole 'role playing' in rpg. Bosses can be more than just random obstacles, but only if you put in the time to integrate them into the story, that is just not done in FFXII, so instead we get a bunch of 'angry spirits' and junk like that. The primer entry for one boss says 'none alive know it's meaning or purpose,' I have to agree, and say that is also true for most of the bosses in the game.

Like I said, this lack of context might not be a problem for you, but for me it goes against why I personally play rpg's. Seriously, even the last boss feels just thrown in there, like they put the names of all the evil npc's in a hat and pulled one out. This problem really isn't just limited to the bosses though, when you create a story as flimsy as the one FFXII tells, it is just impossible to develop much of anything, be it the enemies or the main characters. FFXII does somethings right, but it fails on so many basic levels as an rpg, it barely even fits in the genre, much less as an entry in a flagship series. At some point, people are going to have to start being honest about that, especially once the 'new car smell' wears off of XII and people start trying to figure out what the heck happened.

[Zeromus_X]

Well, I just beat it. What a great ending. :) :cat:


Like I said before, everywhere you went in FFX you got backstory as to why you were there, and detail about a couple of the characters. By comparison, most of FFXII is made up of generic fetch missions that don't really serve much purpose except to move you into the next area. I suppose it is subjective as to how much this bothers you, but that kind of mindless fighting/grinding does not appeal to me. Personally, the whole reason I love games like FF is that they create a cohesive world with history and context, the whole 'role playing' in rpg. Bosses can be more than just random obstacles, but only if you put in the time to integrate them into the story, that is just not done in FFXII, so instead we get a bunch of 'angry spirits' and junk like that. The primer entry for one boss says 'none alive know it's meaning or purpose,' I have to agree, and say that is also true for most of the bosses in the game.

Like I said, this lack of context might not be a problem for you, but for me it goes against why I personally play rpg's. Seriously, even the last boss feels just thrown in there, like they put the names of all the evil npc's in a hat and pulled one out. This problem really isn't just limited to the bosses though, when you create a story as flimsy as the one FFXII tells, it is just impossible to develop much of anything, be it the enemies or the main characters. FFXII does somethings right, but it fails on so many basic levels as an rpg, it barely even fits in the genre, much less as an entry in a flagship series. At some point, people are going to have to start being honest about that, especially once the 'new car smell' wears off of XII and people start trying to figure out what the heck happened.

Do the bosses honestly bug you that much? :p :cat:

In all honesty, I don't know where this 'lack of depth' thing people are complaining about is stemming from. I found plenty of depth in the game, and certainly enough depth in the monsters. If anything, this game has more backstory and history to it's individual world than many of the FFs I've played in awhile (which may or may not have something to do with being set in Ivalice). I mean, yeah, there were alot of monsters that weren't explained, but they didn't need to be explained. Rafflesia doesn't need to have a 10-minute cutscene explaining why its father never gave it a hug when it was a child.

Anyway, I don't really see why this is a big deal...but to each their own. :cat:

[Wolf Kanno]

Every step of the way in FFX you got some backstory as to where you were, why you were fighting a certain boss, and how everything tied together. There are parts of FFXII where you will enter a new area, fight a boss, and leave without ever knowing WTF just happened. That was my point.

If you define back story as "We have to go through here before we can get to this place".

I'm mean honestly, FFX's plot can be described as 50 hours of "Are we there yet?" Also, the area's were only explained cause Tidus had never been to these places; in FFXII, your party is more informed about their world, so it would be stupid to have a damn cutscene every time you enter a new area just so you could have Basch or Fran explain that this is such and such place. In that context, it would be poor writing to have it explained in a cutscene. The Beastery guide was a better choice, cause it allowed you to not break the illusion of the world.

Also, what monsters are explained in FFX? Outside of Sin and the Aeons, I don't remember any boss having some unique or interesting moment that completely defined their very purpose for being there.

I understand that you don't care for the game and I'm fine with that, so let's just leave it at that.

[Slothy]

Personally, the whole reason I love games like FF is that they create a cohesive world with history and context, the whole 'role playing' in rpg.

I fail to see where your problem with this game is then. FFXII has THE most cohesive and detailed world of any game in the series and possibly any game that I've ever played.

As has already been said, every boss doesn't need some huge exposition on why it does what it does. Sometimes it's plenty for it to just be there getting in the way of your progress. It's an RPG convention that's been around a long time, and if it really bothers you so much in this game, then I fail to see how you can be much of an RPG fan at all. You must hate just about every RPG ever made because every single one I've ever played does exactly the same thing.

[sir dan]

I love it. It's a toss up between this and FFX International as my favorite. I still never did beat Penance.

I can't wait to fight Yiazmat in this one, makes Omega look weak.

All my guys are on 40 now about to fight Cid the first time.

Dan

[Roto13]

Even if every other RPG in the world did give big important backstories to their bosses, it's still not something that defines whether a game is an RPG or not.

[Tavrobel]

most of FFXII is made up of generic fetch missions that don't really serve much purpose except to move you into the next area.

Yeah, because most RPGs aren't just exactly that.


I suppose it is subjective as to how much this bothers you, but that kind of mindless fighting/grinding does not appeal to me.

Like I said, this lack of context might not be a problem for you, but for me it goes against why I personally play rpg's.

But you're playing an RPG; as much as you say your intentions are different from other peoples', they usually aren't. I fail to see how this should bother you; if you were interested in RPGs in the first place, you either have great experience in front of the TV, or you care enough to play it. If you wanted cohesive, read LotR.


Personally, the whole reason I love games like FF is that they create a cohesive world with history and context, the whole 'role playing' in rpg. Bosses can be more than just random obstacles, but only if you put in the time to integrate them into the story, that is just not done in FFXII,

Have you played half of the Final Fantasies? It's all random obstacles with a stitched together world involving a bunch of nobodies who decide to save the world after they realize that their lust for revenge against a boss will inevitably lead them to do the same thing.


so instead we get a bunch of 'angry spirits' and junk like that. The primer entry for one boss says 'none alive know it's meaning or purpose,' I have to agree, and say that is also true for most of the bosses in the game.

Even good literature needs some element of WTF or mystery. If you knew everything, it would be incredibly boring. Even in FFX you know not everything.


but it fails on so many basic levels as an rpg, it barely even fits in the genre, much less as an entry in a flagship series.

I kill stuff, get money (in the form of leethax lewt), sell it, buy stuff, kill more stuff, rinse, repeat, and listen to a story along the way. Where does it fail on the basic levels, if that's what you so claim? Diablo II is an RPG. Does nothing that you state that it does, unless you read the instruction manual (like I'm going to do that; I'm American, gotta git' 'ir done!).


At some point, people are going to have to start being honest about that, especially once the 'new car smell' wears off of XII and people start trying to figure out what the heck happened.


*takes out earpiece*

I'm going to tell you something that I have told no one else.

I hate Final Fantasy. It's not the wastefulness, or the greed, or the ignorance. It's the smell.

[Timerk]

But you're playing an RPG; as much as you say your intentions are different from other peoples', they usually aren't. I fail to see how this should bother you; if you were interested in RPGs in the first place, you either have great experience in front of the TV, or you care enough to play it. If you wanted cohesive, read LotR.

I didn't understand what you were trying to say :angel:.

You have to fight a plant boss in both FFX and FFXII, let's compare:

In FFX you fight the Sin Spawn outside of Kilika temple. You learn more about Sin Spawn here, and that Sin always comes back for them, a concept which is integrated into a major plotpoint later on. It gives you a sense of the terror Sin spreads through Spira, and how Spirans always must be on guard and never rest.

In FFXII you fight Rafflesia...then you move on to an enchanted field...

Yeah.

You may not notice things like this, you might not even care, but I do.

Is this such a big deal? Maybe not for most people, but when you combine it with the absolute lack of coherent character motivation and weak storyline, it all adds up to create a feeling of detachment that just isn't there with other FF games, the Zelda series, or even Chrono Trigger.

Other points:

-Tidus' lack of knowledge about Spira was a plot device, so it wasn't an accident, it was put in there specifically to help provide exposition. Penelo looked like she was going to fill this role by asking questions of Fran, but it never really happened. That is a shame, it would have given both of them more screentime and clear roles.

-I just can't see how a game which puts as little emphasis on character development as FFXII can be considered an rpg, so I will always think of it as an action-adventure game with some rpg elements. This may not be right, but I can't get my head around it any other way.

I don't hate FFXII, and I have been playing it since launch, but if you are talking about its legacy, or where it ranks with other FF's...I don't think very high.

YMMV, and hopefully does ;).

[XxSephirothxX]

Many of the bosses in the game are simply stronger monsters. They're not meant to add to the plot or anything of that sort: they're simply like the rulers of their particular area of the wilderness. Do you want an explanation for every malborro or wolf you see? You shouldn't, because in a fantasy setting you come to expect to see monsters. The bosses in FFXII aren't significant (except in cases where you're fighting the Empire, other people, etc., obviously) because they're simply more powerful creatures residing in a part of the world you're traveling through. If they were more than that, they would certainly warrant some sort of explanation. But they're not.

[Roto13]

I think you're confusing "RPG" with "movie".

[Zeromus_X]

Why do you think the characters are undeveloped, Timerk?

[Renmiri]

The XII story is fascinating to me, even if it does lack the emotional attachment to the characters that games like IX and X have. It's a different kind of story and it's well done.
I have said the story is weak, I take it back.

The overall plot idea is good. I don't want to do spoilers but it is a very interesting plot, with no easy villains and surprising twists as good as my favorite Final Fantasy game (FFX). The "plot arch" about nethicite kicks ass!

But it is very poorly "written": It uses way too many cheesy & cliched plot shortcuts like the cheesy fiction staple of having evil twins. The characters aren't presented to you in a subtle and ingenuous manner that makes you gradually make your own opinion of them, they are "dumped" into you lap already defined: Balthier is the rogue pirate, Vaan is the surly young adult with a chip on his shoulder, Fran is the classic outcast that has no place to call home...

The main plot arc gets introduced in a forced way and furthered also in a "dump cut scene to explain plot" manner, which I hate on any work of fiction, and in a FF game then it is a crime. We have the autonomy to walk and explore their world, there is no need for the plot to be dumped on us game players, we can obtain it while exploring like X or while performing "missions" like X2.

All in all it is a very uneven game. Music is <<<<<<< Graphics (1,000 times less cool or of good quality), Summons <<<<<<< Quickenings, Storytelling <<<< World & races

It will be remembered as the pioneer of many excellent ideas but not as a "best" IMHO.

[Timerk]

I think you're confusing "RPG" with "movie".

How so?


Why do you think the characters are undeveloped, Timerk?

Well, Renmiri makes a good point ;).

There was a scene right as the party is leaving Jahara where Vaan and Ashe have a really cool moment where Vaan states that he 'is ready to find some answers. He then spends the rest of the game not doing that, even though you would think he would, you know, at least ask Basch about some stuff or something, since Basch was, you know, there and everything. So, this subplot gets dumped, but we go right into a little of Fran's story, which was interesting and all, but then it gets dropped right when you leave the area and never gets picked up again. Why exactly did Fran leave Eryut Villiage? I am not talking about some generic 'I wanted to explore the world,' I want to know why she decided to leave her family and everyone she loved, including the Wood, to partner with a Hume, when, by all accounts, Humes are distrusted by the Viera.

There are a lot of things I would love to know about the characters and Ivalice, it makes it all the more frustrating the game didn't explore these things more.

So that is why I think the characters are underdeveloped.

[Roto13]

I think you're confusing "RPG" with "movie".

How so?

The G stands for "game". RPGs are games. Hell, a game can have almost no story at all and it can still be an RPG. Look at Final Fantasy 1 or Dragon Warrior 1. Were they not RPGs because they threw bosses in there with no reason to exist other than to be fought? What kind of development did the light warriors have?

You're obsessing over the story like that's the reason the game exists. It's not.

[Renmiri]

The G stands for "game". RPGs are games. Hell, a game can have almost no story at all and it can still be an RPG. Look at Final Fantasy 1 or Dragon Warrior 1. Were they not RPGs because they threw bosses in there with no reason to exist other than to be fought? What kind of development did the light warriors have?

You're obsessing over the story like that's the reason the game exists. It's not.

You forgot the very first letters RP. This is supposed to not be just a GAME but a "Role Playing" game. Nowadays even fight games have a sketchy backstory with a cool plot arch. The stories have good ideas but the writing fails to develop them. Heck, Soulcalibur IV has as much story, and told as "skillfully" as FFXII: The character's story is "dumped" on you in those little cards you win after 10 fights. Take away the the superb 3D movie like animation GRAPHICS and this game is as plot poor as Soulcalibur or Mortal Combat. Talim on Soucalibur is pretty much "Fran", Rayden is a "Balthier" wannabe, abandoning his heritage to help others less fortunate.

I never complained about FFXII graphics or animation, they are superb. But graphics on RPGs were never the main selling point. Heck, FF only got some good graphics around IX. What it lacked on graphics it made up in plot and storytelling. Sadly FFXII went the wrong way on story telling and left me and others who like ROLE PLAY wanting more.

I may be being too harsh but don't forget, FFXII is competing against Grand Theft Auto and other genres of games that are also very enjoyable in terms of being "just a game". And the FF team spoiled us. We expect more character development and story telling from any RPG, particularly from a game on a series that excelled at it.

One RPG thing that FFXII excels at is the world. I just love all the places and races / culture that they populated Ivalice with. I would really love to play a FFXII sequel on the same world, with the same battle system and lots more story telling :D THAT would be the perffect game and an instant classic :love:

[Infiltraitor]

I bought it midnight on launch day and completed it with 70 hours a few weeks later... overall... just say I was disappointed. It didn't really feel like a final fantasy at all.

[The Time Assassin]

I LOVE this game... I'm just stuck on FFIII now. Damn that portable-ness!

[Timerk]

The G stands for "game". RPGs are games. Hell, a game can have almost no story at all and it can still be an RPG. Look at Final Fantasy 1 or Dragon Warrior 1. Were they not RPGs because they threw bosses in there with no reason to exist other than to be fought? What kind of development did the light warriors have?

You're obsessing over the story like that's the reason the game exists. It's not.

You forgot the very first letters RP. This is supposed to not be just a GAME but a "Role Playing" game.:love:

:D

[Wolf Kanno]

I believe Fran left because she was like most of the Viera, and was curious about the world beyond. It's implied in the dialogue. Vaan is being an observer and doesn't need to ask annoying questions. I personally don't consider having a character explain every little damn nuance in the game to be called "story telling" or "a well written, cohesive plot" This is exactly why I hated FFX. It was a 50 hour infomercial about buying a time share in Spira. FFXII is a game where if you want those kind of details, you read up on it cause wasting a cutscene to explain it reminds the player they are playing a game.

Also, several bosses were explained and mentioned in FFXII, giving them backstory (Garuda, Belias, Elder Wyrm.) Most of the bosses have their backstory explained in the beastiry. Besides, in reality, if you were being attacked by a monster that came out of no where like a boss, then chances are you would not have the chance to say, "It's the great guardian beast of the land. Created eons ago to protect this land by the ancient ones." It makes more sense to do it that way.

As for the characters, they are well written and far more human than previous games. Ashe's conflict with the nethicite, Vaan's journey to mature and see the world around, Basch's redemption, Balthier's conflict with his father and past. I'm sorry the game doesn't stop every five minutes to let the characters share their feelings, they're too busy trying to restore Dalmasca and stop the Empire to worry about how this is all making them feel. I'm sorry that FFXII doesn't have any scenes where characters complain about their abusive parents as though that is an excuse for them being a total whiny %@#$!

Most of them are adults, or have had adult hood thrusted upon them. They are over their problems. Vaan resolves the issues of his brother's death early in the game. Now he's seeing the world. From some of the cutscenes, he seems well informed about the world already. Realistically, in these situations, these type of people don't need to talk about their lives. Most of them are proffesionals and both Balthier and Lady Ashe made it pretty clear to Vaan and Penelo that they were not allowed to cause problems early in the game. It's realistic.

If you want a character that has no personality, look no further than Yuna. She's a doorknob and prudish as hell. She has no personality, no real motive outside of thinking it's the right thing to do, and ultimately if she were real, she would be the type of person who can stand next to you and you would never notice her. She's a generic "I'm doing this cause it's the right thing to do" character. It's why most of FFX's plot was irrelevant. In fact FFX would have been a better game if no one talked.

Most of that games cast was irrelevant and had no real purpose. Lulu is the generic dark brooding character that supposedly is like a big sister to Yuna, which translated to her threatening Tidus once in the very beginning of the game. She also gets a few interesting tidbits revealed but she never talks about them and the story completely drops them. They seemed to have only been written in cause the staff remembered that she was there and needed to write some plot to her.

Most people don't even remember Kimarihi, Rikku had no real role in the game except to fill in the role of annoying spunky female that has been a mainstay since FFVII. She's supposed to be there to stop Yuna but she never really does anything.

This leaves only Tidus, Wakka, and Auron. But two of them are disqualified for being annoying and whiny and never making a damn decision for themselves. Which leaves only Auron, as the only descent character. This is of course my personal feeling of that game, if you can even call it that.

FFXII, at least has a good story of political intrigue. Sure it's not as good as the standard set by FFT and Suikoden V but it's still better written than most RPG's. Everything has a reason to be there and I never felt like something happened cause the writer's just threw it in without any thought. I'm also grateful that there is no love story. Most of the love stories in RPG's are terrible. Even FF has only been capable of doing it well a few times (FFVIII). That's why it has always been relagated as just a side story in the game. Besides, it's unrealistic to assume that people are going to always "hook up" while they are on a mission to save the world, or get revenge.

[Renmiri]

I believe Fran left because she was like most of the Viera, and was curious about the world beyond. It's implied in the dialogue. Vaan is being an observer and doesn't need to ask annoying questions. I personally don't consider having a character explain every little damn nuance in the game to be called "story telling" or "a well written, cohesive plot"

AHA!

You hit the nail in the head about what bothers me about FFXII storytelling. Like you: I personally don't consider having a character explain every little damn nuance in the game to be called "story telling" or "a well written, cohesive plot". Every little nuance of FFXII plot is said out loud by a character, "telegraphing the plot" which, btw, is considered very bad writing.

On XII Vaan comes and says flat out the issue he has with the death of his brother. I guess I was running away from it The Emperor of Arcadia during the Senate meeting where Vayne's deeds are discussed does the same: Tells you exactly what the Senate is asking him to do in a loud voice. You ask me to decide between my son and my Kingdom Well DUH! I didn't need Vaan and the King telling me that, did you ?

See the point I'm making about XII's weak storytelling ? The plot itself is good, political intrigue, several father / son conflicts, a fallen knight, etc... But the way it gets presented to the gamer is very cheesy and forced.

On X Tidus doesn't come out and say "My dad was abusive and that is why I feel ambivalent about him". The writers make us know that by subtle clues and flashbacks. This is good writing: Assume your reader is intelligent enough to figure out things for himself, don't patronize him by "telegraphing the plot".

I also dislike the idea of leaving parts of the story in the Bestiary. A matter of taste I suppose. But still... Again, this is Role Playing, and one of the best RP franchises ever. Soulcalibur, Metroid and Mortal Combat which have a very rudimentary world for players to explore, making their strong point the battles or shooting might need to resort to those "Story Cards" but an RPG ? An FF rpg ? Pu-lease!

[Timerk]

You know, people, exposition does not have to be 'annoying and whiny,' it can be interesting and add a lot of story depth. The quality of exposition is determined by the writers of the game, so there is no reason to assume the exposition scenes in XII would be anything like the exposition scenes in X, thematically or otherwise.

:twocents:

[Wolf Kanno]

I'll admit that FFXII telegraphs the plot a few times but what I meant about
explaining every damn nuance in the game to be called "storytelling" or a "well written plot" concerend the idea that we have to explain every place we go like FFX did. Just about everytime you entered a new area, a cutscene would start where Yuna or Wakka would explain that we are in "such and such place" it was only made annoying by the fact that a good three quarters of the area's explained were irrelevant and had no real bearing on the plot. It would have been more entertaining to watch Jecht's journey cause you know he would have told Auron and Braska to "Shove it, I don't need to know where the hell I am, I just need to be pointed to where I need to go. Leave the tour till after we beat Sin";) My grammar takes a dive at 3 in the morning. Sorry for the misuderstanding.

As for the storyline, if you really pay attention, most of the FF's telegraph the plot by your logic. The fact that Tidus had to be told that Yuna was going to die even though the entire game screams it out at every possible moment. If the player had been kept in the dark the scene would have had a greater impact. Even if you were to justify it by saying that it had to be made obvious for the players to see the scenes in a different light. It was still poorly done cause the game goes out of it's way to make it obvious. Most of Yuna's dialogue concerns the idea that she is going to die.


You know, people, exposition does not have to be 'annoying and whiny,' it can be interesting and add a lot of story depth. The quality of exposition is determined by the writers of the game, so there is no reason to assume the exposition scenes in XII would be anything like the exposition scenes in X, thematically or otherwise.

I wrote my feelings on FFX to get this point across. That and I am sick and tired of fanboys and fangirls doing side by side comparisons of FFXII against FFX. Escpecially since most of their complaints about FFXII are my exact feelings about FFX. Obviously, we all have different feelings about how a story should be told. FFXII did it for some and did not for others. Though I still do not understand how you feel as though FFXII is not a cohesive world. We have more details about this game's world than any other in the series. Even more amazing is how everything actually blends together in the game. About 98% of the game's world has a logical reason for being there.

[Timerk]

I'll admit that FFXII telegraphs the plot a few times but what I meant about
explaining every damn nuance in the game to be called "storytelling" or a "well written plot" concerend the idea that we have to explain every place we go like FFX did. Just about everytime you entered a new area, a cutscene would start where Yuna or Wakka would explain that we are in "such and such place" it was only made annoying by the fact that a good three quarters of the area's explained were irrelevant and had no real bearing on the plot. It would have been more entertaining to watch Jecht's journey cause you know he would have told Auron and Braska to "Shove it, I don't need to know where the hell I am, I just need to be pointed to where I need to go. Leave the tour till after we beat Sin";) My grammar takes a dive at 3 in the morning. Sorry for the misuderstanding.

Actually, I think the opposite would be true, because in the game, Auron has to tell Jecht 'this is not a pleasure cruise' on at least one occasion. Didn't Jecht make them stop to film a blitzball match? Most of Jecht's story, in fact, was him solving the mystery of how to get home, as we can see through his spheres, so I don't think the storytelling would have gone like you think just because of the nature of X's story (that of an outsider in a strange land). More on this below.


As for the storyline, if you really pay attention, most of the FF's telegraph the plot by your logic. The fact that Tidus had to be told that Yuna was going to die even though the entire game screams it out at every possible moment. If the player had been kept in the dark the scene would have had a greater impact. Even if you were to justify it by saying that it had to be made obvious for the players to see the scenes in a different light. It was still poorly done cause the game goes out of it's way to make it obvious. Most of Yuna's dialogue concerns the idea that she is going to die.

See, the key line there is 'if you really pay attention,' unlike in XII where plot points are just dumped out in the script but never followed through on. For example, you can see Yuna carry the weight of what she is about to do in almost every scene she is in, and you can sense her conflict. Compare that with Vaan, who says he is running away from his brothers death, but we never actually see it in any of his actions. This is a problem every character has except Ashe and maybe Balthier, motives are mentioned but never expanded on, and we are being constantly told things instead of being shown.


You know, people, exposition does not have to be 'annoying and whiny,' it can be interesting and add a lot of story depth. The quality of exposition is determined by the writers of the game, so there is no reason to assume the exposition scenes in XII would be anything like the exposition scenes in X, thematically or otherwise.


I wrote my feelings on FFX to get this point across. That and I am sick and tired of fanboys and fangirls doing side by side comparisons of FFXII against FFX. Escpecially since most of their complaints about FFXII are my exact feelings about FFX. Obviously, we all have different feelings about how a story should be told. FFXII did it for some and did not for others.

Actually, your complaints about X are almost the exact opposite of the popular complaints about XII.

It sounds to me like you have a bigger problem with the characters in X than you do with the narrative, and those are two different things. There are FF's I don't like, but even in those I can appreciate the story being told. If you think Tidus and Rikku are annoying that is fine, but it doesn't mean that Square should just stop giving their characters personalities.


Though I still do not understand how you feel as though FFXII is not a cohesive world. We have more details about this game's world than any other in the series. Even more amazing is how everything actually blends together in the game. About 98% of the game's world has a logical reason for being there.

So we have more details about Ivalics than we do about Spira, or even the FFVII planet? We don't even get to see Rosaria, or even meet anyone from there other than Al-Cid.

If story is unimportant to you and you want to defend XII on that level, it makes sense, but to say this world is more developed than any other....it just doesn't make any sense.

[Omni-Odin]

FFXII story = Mass pile of crap
Gameplay = great
Sidequests = Good, but a little repetitive
Characters = They could all commit suicide and I wouldn't care

I'll still play it for the sidequests and just to say I have, but I am 125 hours into it and I'd like to get my money back for this mediocre game.

[Raistlin]

You spent 125 hours on a game, and you don't like it enough to want your money back?

[Marshall Banana]

It's not fair for someone to justify that FFXII is any less of a Final Fantasy (or downright horrible) by comparing it to FFX alone. It also seems nitpicky and biased.

Actually, everything about FFXII is great, except maybe the beginning and ending are so amazing that everything in between seems a little dull.

[Roto13]

You spent 125 hours on a game, and you don't like it enough to want your money back?

Really.

[Wolf Kanno]

You're right about the Jecht part, I completely forgot about that part. :eek:

No, I do have serious issues with the plot of FFX (It does have to do with the cast as you observed, but if you think about it, FFX is more character driven than plot driven), but I don't want to stray farther from the subject of this thread anymore than I have. As for characters, I don't care for FFX's cast either but it's not like I've absolutely loved every cast member from previous games. There are always a few duds. Aslo, just because I don't like a character doesn't mean it's solely cause they are not written well. I actually like Lulu though I never felt like she was justified being there. On the other hand, I feel Wakka was a well written character, but I just don't care for him.

I actually like the whole cast of FFXII, though I agree that certain characters could have been expanded on more, but I don't feel the character's lacked depth. This is just how I felt about it. Honestly, my three favorite characters just happen to be the only three the plot really delves into (Balthier, Basch, and Lady Ashe). I feel that Vaan's story was resolved early in the game and his declaration of "not running away and getting to the bottom of everthing" is being told by him becoming more of an observer. The road to maturity is not only measured in actions but understanding the truth of the world. If you notice, Vaan's dialogue becomes more mature as the story progresses. He still says something stupid or ignorant but it's to remind us that he's still a child, and still has a long road ahead of him.

As for the story. I never felt like it was "telegraphed to me" or dumped onto me. I didn't even think about it till Renmiri pointed it out. So it's not true for everyone that it does that. The story is just told differently, some like it, others don't.

The world is cohesive. We have more info about this small area of the world than we do about entire FF worlds. True, for all we know, Ivalice is only the size of Australia or perhaps even as large as Asia, but it proves that we don't need a whole world. I think of FFXII's Ivalice to be, historically speaking, the equivalent of the days of Alexander the Great. Macedonia versus Persia. Sure,there are other countries and civilizations in the world; but in western history, they were the two most powerful nations in the world at the time. The other countries don't matter cause they are probably unaware of what's goin on in that part of the world, let alone that these countries even exist.

But I feel this way about (sorry to bring FFX up again) Spira as well. It seemed pretty small for an FF world, so I assumed that Spira was only a small part of the world. This is not a bad thing. If the Suikoden games have proven anything, it's that epic stories do not have to be relegated to "saving the world". A story can be just as "epic" as long as the heroes are fighting for something that means the world to them.

[Renmiri]

I'll admit that FFXII telegraphs the plot a few times but what I meant about
explaining every damn nuance in the game to be called "storytelling" or a "well written plot" concerend the idea that we have to explain every place we go like FFX did. Just about everytime you entered a new area, a cutscene would start where Yuna or Wakka would explain....

Leave the tour till after we beat Sin";) ..A matter of taste then. I hated the cards with back-story and loved Yuna, Lulu or Maechem telling it. But this wasn't my main beef. I hate when writers "telegraph the plot" or actors do the same in a movie. (Like those pretty Hollywood boys who say "I'm angry" because they can't make a convincing angry face unless they are getting upstaged by a rival in real life :p )


As for the storyline....If the player had been kept in the dark the scene would have had a greater impact..
I didn't :eep: It was quite a shock to me too.


I wrote my feelings on FFX to get this point across. That and I am sick and tired of fanboys and fangirls doing side by side comparisons of FFXII against FFX...
Well I do admit being an FFX fanatic :D but I honestly did try to see FFXII on it's own merits. And saw a lot of good things, writing just isn't one of them.


Though I still do not understand how you feel as though FFXII is not a cohesive world. We have more details about this game's world than any other in the series. Even more amazing is how everything actually blends together in the game. About 98% of the game's world has a logical reason for being there.
I never said that!

Quite the opposite, I agree with you 100%, the world design on XII is fantastic and perhaps - heresy!!! - even better than my beloved X :eek: There, I admitted it. The areas, the culture, the races, the religion, foodstuffs, fiends and Mist / Jagd details are just so rich and detailed!

Which makes the weak story quite glaring to me. And makes me dislike FFXII story and characters more compared to it's own good areas than compared to X or any other game.

The game is very uneven. Wonderful in some hard to make areas, lame in other areas that SE used to excel at. It doesn't live up to it's potential, and by such easily fixable reasons.

With such outstanding graphics and such a rich world, and such a fun and well designed battle system it is just a crime to have XII spoiled by the lame storytelling, unmemorable music and weak Esper system. A pity and a crime. Why didn't SE pop up a bit more $$$ to get better scene writers ? It seems to me it is much harder t o have all those wonderfully detailed graphics and world design than it is to find someone with more than junior high level writing.


It's not fair for someone to justify that FFXII is any less of a Final Fantasy (or downright horrible) by comparing it to FFX alone. It also seems nitpicky and biased.
True for X or any other game, in the context of this thread. There is one about "Is XII the best FF game ever ?" where the idea is exactly that: compared to other games, where do you put FFXII at ?

I said it above, my main beef with XII is comparing it to itself. It has the makings of "the best game ever" but doesn't deliver, and what's worse, it falls short on areas that SE mastered long ago. A true pity.


....except maybe the beginning and ending are so amazing that everything in between seems a little dull.
And you don't get to play on those "so amazing" parts. It is just dumped at you and you have to sit still dying to explore and to move your characters and be condemned to just be listening to a movie instead. See my point about not including the game player in the story telling ?

[Marshall Banana]

See my point about not including the game player in the story telling ?
Nope, I was more than satisfied. <3

[Wolf Kanno]

A matter of taste then. I hated the cards with back-story and loved Yuna, Lulu or Maechem telling it. But this wasn't my main beef. I hate when writers "telegraph the plot" or actors do the same in a movie. (Like those pretty Hollywood boys who say "I'm angry" because they can't make a convincing angry face unless they are getting upstaged by a rival in real life :p )

Actually, outside of that one Vaan scene, I still, never really felt like the plot was "telegraphed". Also, I felt FFXII has done a better job using body language and facial expressions than other games. But, to each their own I guess:p




As for the storyline....If the player had been kept in the dark the scene would have had a greater impact..
I didn't :eep: It was quite a shock to me too.


Really? I felt it was blatanly obvious after you watch the opening camp scene and later after Yuna acquired her first summon. The game just kept screaming it out to me...




I wrote my feelings on FFX to get this point across. That and I am sick and tired of fanboys and fangirls doing side by side comparisons of FFXII against FFX...
Well I do admit being an FFX fanatic :D but I honestly did try to see FFXII on it's own merits. And saw a lot of good things, writing just isn't one of them.


I just want more critiques of FFXII alone with examples from within the game. I hate when people compare their games to their favorites. It was a pet peeve I picked up after FFVII came out and everything had to be compared to it (It's my other least favorite FF, though I have come to terms with it in recent years.) FFXII, isn't even my favorite but I do feel that most complaints are more about opinion and personal taste as opposed to the game just being poorly done.




Though I still do not understand how you feel as though FFXII is not a cohesive world. We have more details about this game's world than any other in the series. Even more amazing is how everything actually blends together in the game. About 98% of the game's world has a logical reason for being there.
I never said that!

Quite the opposite, I agree with you 100%, the world design on XII is fantastic and perhaps - heresy!!! - even better than my beloved X :eek: There, I admitted it. The areas, the culture, the races, the religion, foodstuffs, fiends and Mist / Jagd details are just so rich and detailed!

Which makes the weak story quite glaring to me. And makes me dislike FFXII story and characters more compared to it's own good areas than compared to X or any other game.

The game is very uneven. Wonderful in some hard to make areas, lame in other areas that SE used to excel at. It doesn't live up to it's potential, and by such easily fixable reasons.

With such outstanding graphics and such a rich world, and such a fun and well designed battle system it is just a crime to have XII spoiled by the lame storytelling, unmemorable music and weak Esper system. A pity and a crime. Why didn't SE pop up a bit more $$$ to get better scene writers ? It seems to me it is much harder t o have all those wonderfully detailed graphics and world design than it is to find someone with more than junior high level writing.


First, that comment was meant for Timerk's previous few posts. Sorry for the confusion.:laughing: But the real problem I think you have, is that you need to realize that FFXII is story driven. FFX is a character driven piece. I personally feel it had a lousy cast and that's why I don't care for it's story, and as you have said yourself, it's something I feel SE mastered a long time ago was their ability to create gripping characters and plots.

FFXII is designed to be like the older games (by older we mean pre-FFVI). I began to really think about it as I played, and started to notice how many similarities it had to FFV. I feel it is a story driven piece where the characters are given enough back story and personality to give the player a reason to sympathize with them and enough motivation to see it through. Their personalities are not shown to be as strong cause like the older games, it's a RPG.

Role playing does not mean watching a fully written character with a distinct personality go through his own personal trials and tribulations. If that was the case, movies and books would be role playing as well. Role Playing (in context of RPGs) is about assuming the role of a character. The characters are designed so the player can relate to them and play the game as them. That's why story scenes are carefully written so that the characters should be portraying the feelings of the players themselves. It may explain why I love Lady Ashe so much cause I could feel her personal struggle about gaining and using the nethicite. I could better relate to the scene than just watch Yuna constantly defend her desire to be a summoner cause according to character "it was the right thing to do"

There's a human element to the characters that is difficult to capture. I feel the writer's did it because they allowed us players to finally assume the roles of the characters themselves. Perhaps you never even thought about it this way. Chances are you will not agree. You seem to enjoy the character driven pieces better, nothing is wrong with that, I love character driven stories as well (my favorite FF is a character driven piece in my opinion;) ) I just don't think FFX was a good one.



And you don't get to play on those "so amazing" parts. It is just dumped at you and you have to sit still dying to explore and to move your characters and be condemned to just be listening to a movie instead. See my point about not including the game player in the story telling ?


FFX was notorious for this...

[Timerk]

I know more about the Mi'hen Highroad than Ivalice.

That ain't right.

[Wolf Kanno]

I know more about the Mi'hen Highroad than Ivalice.

That ain't right.

The Mi'hen what? Sorry I can't remeber that place. You'll have to jog my memory...;)


P.S. I'm being serious, I really don't remember that place. I'm guessing it's from FFX?

[Timerk]

It was the setting of the 'Rikku falls on her butt' scene in X-2.

[Renmiri]

Actually, outside of that one Vaan scene, I still, never really felt like the plot was "telegraphed". Also, I felt FFXII has done a better job using body language and facial expressions than other games. But, to each their own I guess:p
Aye, facial movement is good like you say. I have only 2 nits to pick about XII graphics and technology: It is slow to load and Vaan's ribs are... ewww!
But the "telegraphing the plot" can be seen all over: The Archadian Senate pressuring the King and the guy goes and summarizes "you are making me choose between my son and my Kingdom". Well DUH! Baltier telling Ashe I left because I couldn't stand seeing him like this, Vaan Forgiving Basch in heartbeat without even asking for details on the story, Fran telling Her sister that better she tells Mrjim to stay, since she is an exile already

Yuna's attitude was very poignant to me because my nephew Christopher, whom I changed diapers 18 years ago had just shipped to Iraq "because it is the right thing to do" and I just couldn't stand the idea of having him killed there for a war I had serious doubts about and saw a mountain of lies, not the sacred mission he saw. Yuna and Tidus / Rikku were going through the exact same experience. (Chris is still alive BTW, praise be to Yevon :D )

I just want more critiques of FFXII alone with examples from within the game. I hate when people compare their games to their favorites.... as opposed to the game just being poorly done.
I will admit I did do that, but on another tread. Here in this thread and with me being later in the game too, I found a lot more positive things to say, which made the weak writing all the more glaring.

...the real problem I think you have, is that you need to realize that FFXII is story driven. FFX is a character driven piece. I personally feel it had a lousy cast and that's why I don't care for it's story, and as you have said yourself, it's something I feel SE mastered a long time ago was their ability to create gripping characters and plots.
Perhaps... But cards telling the story ? Or 20 minutes long FMVs ? Not to my taste :eep:


I know more about the Mi'hen Highroad than Ivalice.

That ain't right.
Indeed! A bit of Ivalice's story is on the little cards on Bestiary. But not enough and not to my taste. Cards ?!?!? This is Final Fantasy not Mortal Combat! That puts the FFXII is plot centric idea to rest BTW. What center is that that is relegated to little tidbits hidden in a 3rd level menu ?

.FFXII is designed to be like the older games (by older we mean pre-FFVI). I began to really think about it as I played, and started to notice how many similarities it had to FFV.
Can't comment on that, haven't played the older batch yet.


.I feel it is a story driven piece where the characters are given enough back story and personality to give the player a reason to sympathize with them and enough motivation to see it through. Their personalities are not shown to be as strong cause like the older games, it's a RPG.

Role playing does not mean watching a fully written character with a distinct personality go through his own personal trials and tribulations. If that was the case, movies and books would be role playing as well. Role Playing (in context of RPGs) is about assuming the role of a character. The characters are designed so the player can relate to them and play the game as them. That's why story scenes are carefully written so that the characters should be portraying the feelings of the players themselves.
Aye, agreed on the RPG thing. Which is why all the "telegraphing the plot" on XII annoyed me so much. It spoiled that aspect for me. I felt Vaan's feelings were forced on me, I wanted to create my own, based on the story, not have them told to me.


It may explain why I love Lady Ashe so much cause I could feel her personal struggle about gaining and using the nethicite. I could better relate to the scene than just watch Yuna constantly defend her desire to be a summoner cause according to character "it was the right thing to do"
Ashe's inner struggle and personality was just about the only exception to the weak writing and even then a bit of the issue "telegraphed" to my taste. But yes, her character is a bit better done than the rest, no wonder you like it so much!


There's a human element to the characters that is difficult to capture. I feel the writer's did it because they allowed us players to finally assume the roles of the characters themselves. Perhaps you never even thought about it this way. Chances are you will not agree. You seem to enjoy the character driven pieces better
On the contrary. It is my main objection to the characters being "dumped" on us players fully made as it is on XII. I hate it when someone tells me how I should feel :p


FFX was notorious for this...
I never felt it but then again, we're talking about XII on it's own merits, are we not ?

BTW, I have the Jahara FMV uploaded to Youtube, where you can see Vaan telling us exactly how he feels (to never worry about it again). Have look if you want to revisit that scene (full of spoilers), it has pretty sharp graphics, I lucked out finding a way to rip almost perfect FMV scenes :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ya4AMfjLOM

Oh, and Vaan's ribs, my pet peeve with the graphics

http://ffproject.net/forumwiki/images/Ribs2.jpg

[Roto13]

Vaan is my pet peeve with the whole damn game.

[Tavrobel]

Vaan Everything except the Game Over screen is my pet peeve with the whole damn game.

[Wolf Kanno]

First you have to stop with the "dump" the story. I never felt it was really that bad. It's why I can only think of maybe two scenes that did that. I also found neither of them to be annoying. So basically it's an opinion.

Second, we discussed the "cards" as you put it. FFXII doesn't explain every piece of land you enter cause most of it should be common sense if you lived in Ivalice. And before you sight Vaan and Penelo, they did have Migelo and Old Dalan, so they could have known about many of the places in the world. It's a design choice, not poor writing. Besides, very few RPGs ever explain the area's you go too. It's usually just the cave that has what your looking for.

Vaan's ribs... yeah, those are freakish:eek:

As for Vaan as a character, he's my least favorite. So I can understand people not liking him. But as for Vaan not questioning Basch about his brother's death. If you remember correctly, Vaan was present when Gabranth revealed his identity in front of Basch. After Basch explained it was Gabranth who set him up, Vaan pretty much let it go, and had accepted him by the time they met with the resistance in Rabanastre.

As for Ivalice not being well explained... It's all in the beastiry. I know you don't like to read the "cards" but I don't like people giving me a "guided tour". We both just have to accept we have different taste;)


Also, I can't remember that scene about the Mi'hen road. I could never bring myself to play FFX-2 a second time (but I have played it completely through) I don't even remember it from the first game? Was it the place with the Shoopuf? Or the one that had Chocobos?

[Renmiri]

First you have to stop with the "dump" the story... basically it's an opinion.

Second, we discussed the "cards"... It's a design choice, not poor writing.....

Vaan's ribs... yeah, those are freakish:eek:

As for Vaan as a character, he's my least favorite. So I can understand people not liking him. But as for Vaan...

As for Ivalice not being well explained.....We both just have to accept we have different taste;)


Also, I can't remember that scene about the Mi'hen road. I could never bring myself to play FFX-2 a second time (but I have played it completely through) I don't even remember it from the first game? Was it the place with the Shoopuf? Or the one that had Chocobos?
Fair enough ;)

Good point, I had forgotten that scene with Gabranth

The one with Chocobos. Maechen and others explain a lot about Lord Mi'hen and about the ruins and about the road itself. You need that info to find one of the Celestial Weapons. Which for people who don't dig having to listen to Maeche's ramblings might make it annoying. X and X2 should have made listening to Maechem optional :p

[Wolf Kanno]

The one with Chocobos. Maechen and others explain a lot about Lord Mi'hen and about the ruins and about the road itself. You need that info to find one of the Celestial Weapons. Which for people who don't dig having to listen to Maeche's ramblings might make it annoying. X and X2 should have made listening to Maechem optional :p


Maechen was amusing, but god did he get annoying after awhile... It's probably why I don't remember, I hate people who ramble on and on. I probably started to tune him out and never realized it...

[Anno Domini]

Everyone is thinkiing far too into this! The original thread was if you liked it or not, not a complete character analysis of every character! Do you like the game or not, why?/Why not? that was the question, not "how does FFXII coreleate to the Mihen(sp?) Highroad and the rest of spira?"
granted that all of oyu gave very good answeres, but they were burried in paragraphs about FFX!

I got FFXII for christmas and thought the ending was predictable, i truely enjoyed it because i thought the story was interesting and the game had a healthy balance of light-heartedness and seriousness.