Is this stupid or utter genius?

[neo_sporin]

So I was thinking about how people kept complaining about the license board and how by end game everyone is a clone. Would it have been a better or worse system if for every license(or every other) you buy for a character, you have to choose a license for that character to never be able to get. Given this would only be possible if the license board was much bigger, it would make it so each person could only have half or 1/3 the total licenses avialble. This way people with the hard hitting equipment might have to give up mostly magic. Or you would have to seriously choose a weapon type early game for the person and make it so they could never use any other type.

[Tavrobel]

I like clones. If they do the job, then they ALL do the job.

[Nominus Experse]

It may have been good, or bad. On one hand, people love to customize their characters, if even they are essentially going to all become clones in the end. And on the other hand, it adds a level of strategy and increases the difficulty and thought of the game when you have to plan your characters.

But really, more than anything, I think the vast majority of people enjoy not having to plan their characters and instead focus on the other areas of the game.

And of those that enjoy making god characters, well, they need such customization...

[Zeromus_X]

Your characters won't become godlike clones until after you've beat the game and have actually started doing sidequests. xD It's just like the Sphere Grid in FFX (though that gave the characters more defined 'Jobs', while the License Board gives you the freedom of full customization).

The license board gives you great customization to your characters, instead of going on predefined paths, you can set them down a path of your choice. Why complain about being overpowered/ there isn't enough variety if you're the person going out of their way for gratuitous leveling? I let my party stick to the paths they were on, to define what characters did what jobs effectively. I'm not even going to think about making them teh uber godliness until (well, if) I start doing the crazy elite hunts/bonus espers and such (where having a variety of abilities for your gambits so you don't get slaughtered would actually be somewhat necessary).

[Setharion]

I actually am for more restrictions on skills...the whole fact that my team can be clones really just takes away from any sort of identity other than their name and look.

It would be like watching Lord of the Rings and seeing Gandalf pickup a bow and arrow and do what Legolas can do with it, or a great axe, or aragorn running into a field and using the same magic as Gandalf...it takes away from true identity when everyone can be the same.

I just like set classes, now it would of been cool to choose different types for those classes like.

Penelo, Fran and Ashe...they could of been set casters with perhaps choice of either white magic, black, time, a slight mix, and then choice of weapons like daggers, guns and staves. And armor light and mystic...i think that would of given plenty of choices yet still holding somewhat of an identity to the characters.

Then take the guys, give vaan and bashe persay a selection of swords, axe, ninja sword, pole etc...but let the limits be there. Perhaps you could make a slight Paladin type out of them, but i just dont like that my main tank could also cast end game black magic...just takes away from the uniqueness that *is* classes.

This is my only gripe with the game, i love it other than that. I am addicted to it. But i think there could of been ways to do it other than letting everyone be the same thing by end game.

The fact Penelo could run around with a huge axe and then cast black magic and be a white mage and fire a bow and wear heavy armor etc...just kind of ruins the seperation, and same goes for other members.

Im sure some love total customizing, but i do for one hope they go back to a more resticted base of classes that you can tweak but not create clones.

Edit: Or you would have to seriously choose a weapon type early game for the person and make it so they could never use any other type.

Yea I like that idea too, alot of games do it that way and it makes it more special or important to thoroughly think what weapons you want to wield. I would of loved that.

Being everything is what killed Asherons Call for me too in my stint of a year there, everyone was the same...Mr. Caster running by could pull out the clubber axe and tank just like any other tank, just doesnt give any true importance to the character or class.

[Angi-Kaiser]

It just takes self dicipline when customising your characters. If you give everyone the same stats, then of course theyre going to be clones. If you want the grils to be specific spellcasters with certain wepons, and the guys to be paladins/wariors with other certain wepons, then make them that way. I like the fact that the saystem gives you the freedom to makes those choices. Those who want a super army of characters whose only diferences are their character model, and perhaps their quickenings, can have them. Those who want their characters set into specific roles can make them that way. This way, no one is really forced to have character types they don't want.

[Ashley Schovitz]

It may have been good, or bad. On one hand, people love to customize their characters, if even they are essentially going to all become clones in the end. And on the other hand, it adds a level of strategy and increases the difficulty and thought of the game when you have to plan your characters.

But really, more than anything, I think the vast majority of people enjoy not having to plan their characters and instead focus on the other areas of the game.

And of those that enjoy making god characters, well, they need such customization...


Yeah that's how I feel eventhough I like diversity better, FFXIi's battle system and character growth isn't the problem, but realluy, nah I don't want to get started on it again.

[LazarCotoron]

It's interesting that's how you feel, but then you are talking about how it works at the very end of the game.

I'm... just past Mt. Bur-Omisace, and my characters have all fallen into distinct roles that they are obviously better at than the others, and this is, unabashedly in most circumstances, in SPITE of my trying to make them nearly identical, at least in terms of the upper license board.

It took me by surprise, but Vaan is by leaps and bounds my best caster-nearly by double the power of my other two caster-oriented characters. And Vaan is using a proper weapon as opposed to a caster weapon.

To say that you CAN make your characters exactly the same is an accurate statement. Try it some time and see how hard it actually is.

[Slothy]

I still don't see where this complaint comes from. It's more than easy enough to set people on seperate paths by not buying them all the same licenses. In fact, the only place my characters have a lot of overlap is with the augment section of the board. I've set out very well defined roles for everyone, and I have no intention of deviating from them until after I beat the game and go for the more elite hunts and Espers as Zeromus said. Honestly, I think this system works far better than the character development systems in games like FFVII or VIII. In those it was far too easy to make everyone a clone and exploit the fact that everyone could do everything. In this game, you can make everyone a clone, but the amount of level grinding required to do it early on is anything but easy and borders on the absurd quite frankly.

[Omni-Odin]

License Board = One of the Best systems ever

[Lynx]

everyone still has there own quickenings and the summons help keep them form being clones. i would like it better if every character had there own set of abilities though.

[Tavrobel]

The only variable is animations, since Quickenings do the same damage base.

Summons don't really count, since they are so not useful.

[Setharion]

I think a game like Oblivion is great for open ended skill building, but even at that you kind of are limited to a degree.

I understand people take views these days that more is better, but i think some things need to stay the same to keep character and definement.

I think the license board could be great for their own set of skills, it wouldnt take away from anything...it would just eliminate the idea that your tank could also be a top level black magic caster and vice versa. That imho is not a bad thing at all.

Im just the kind of gamer that tries to identify with characters in games and i like that seperation of classes, makes it more realistic. I think of it as real life jobs, in game thats their jobs...not everyone is going to be able to do everything the next guy can do. It all just makes more sense to me even though its a game, it just as i said makes it feel more unique to bust out your big time caster when tanks need help instead of busting out a big time spell with your tank if hes hurtin.

[VengefulRonin]

I still don't see where this complaint comes from. It's more than easy enough to set people on seperate paths by not buying them all the same licenses. In fact, the only place my characters have a lot of overlap is with the augment section of the board. I've set out very well defined roles for everyone, and I have no intention of deviating from them until after I beat the game and go for the more elite hunts and Espers as Zeromus said. Honestly, I think this system works far better than the character development systems in games like FFVII or VIII. In those it was far too easy to make everyone a clone and exploit the fact that everyone could do everything. In this game, you can make everyone a clone, but the amount of level grinding required to do it early on is anything but easy and borders on the absurd quite frankly.

Agreed. I dont know why everyone is complaining about being able to make people the same. If you dont want them to be the same, then dont make them that way. Its easy enough to say "i want vaan to use katanas when they become available, and for now he will use daggers." And i'm too lazy to make everyone powerhouses. I do make sure everyone knows white and black magics though, to make things a little easier on me, but only fran knows time magics.

[LazarCotoron]

It just shows you that you can please some of the people some of the time, but it's a fools errand to try to please all of the people all of the time.

Even if they are the same, though... Let's think about this for a moment. Is it unreasonable for a REAL person to be talented at many different things? Is it unreasonable for an untalented person to be dedicated to training hard to be good at many different things?

Is that honestly so unreasonable?

[Setharion]

No its not unreasonable, but this isnt real life...thats the difference. But even at that, you could go and get 100 people and im going to bet that not everyone can do the same things to the same level of achievement either.

Maybe 20 of them are amazing football players, yet out of those 10 15 of them suck at basketball, and then maybe some that are good at football and basketball suck at baseball when those that suck at basketball are good at it. Its just, you arent going to have the same level of talent to the tee.

Whereas in a game like this, you can basically have the same level of talent to the tee. Nothing seperates the characters.

I mean there comes a time when for a game you have to sacrifice having option after option for a quality game. So when it would become a staple that in every rpg from here on out all characters can be the same thing, where does it stop?

Im just old school, and its not like you cant see each aspect of the game when you have restricted skills to certain classes, its just youre going to have it be more unique when so and so character uses this skill being this other guy cant.

I just feel its what makes movies, books, games all go around. If every movie or book or game has every character being able to do the same thing it just makes nothing special anymore, nothing unique.

If im watching Conan The Barbarion and the wizard can go and pick up Conans sword and weild it just as good, and then pass it over to the thief and he can weild it just as good, then whats the point of having Conan anymore, nothing is special about his talents anymore.\

Edit: Btw im loving this game to death for everything else, this is the only downfall in my eyes, just dont want anyone to think im hating on FFXII. I just would of prefered set classes and some skill restrictions.

[LazarCotoron]

No its not unreasonable, but this isnt real life...thats the difference.

And that's precisely my point. It isn't real life, it's a game. And if it's possible (though highly improbable) in real life, then it should be possible in a game.

For what it's worth, I understand what you're saying, and in that regard, I genuinely think FF Tactics is the only game to ever have made genuine differences in your characters. This should be especially true in RPGs, which is ironic since it logically follows that RPGs are where they should be trying harder to pronounce these differences.

I personally feel that to really show off these differences, you need a full scale action game where the warriors really cut loose in melee with arcade fighting game controls and the wizards have a basic attack button, but can cast their powerful spells and do things the warriors can't.

[Setharion]

Yea i know what you mean about it being a game then on the counter why couldnt a mage be just as good of a fighter as a warrior or what not.

But just one more counter to that :p heh for conversation piece, its like there are certain aspects that still retain realism like Vaan cant just up and fly or cant walk through walls or cant pick mountains and wail them at someone, but even though its a game...why shouldnt he be able too...is what thinking in game means anything is possible.

Like for example, lets take weapon distribution. If there was a sword you were trying to get called Sword of Greatness, and you took your party in to finally get this sword and actually retrieve it. Would the specialness of this sword be there if when you got the sword it would automatically go into every party members inventory and everyone had it and could use it just as good? Or would it be more special if your main warrior has this sword and is a beast with it?

To me thats how i view classes and skills...just is a better sense of accomplishment when one class excels over another and how its used.

To each his own though, but i just would think most people would enjoy more of a set class.

[LazarCotoron]

The point I tried to nail is this here. The Wizard can use the freaking greatsword, but I agree that he shouldn't be able to whip out six hit combos with it.

There's no logical explanation you can't use a weapon if you can lift it. That doesn't make you good with it though, does it.

[Setharion]

Not disagreeing with that one bit, i think thats how it should always be as to defining classes. I just mean that in FFXII it seems that variable isnt taken into account as to being good or bad with it.

There should be options, but paths to take once you choose an option...so if you go down that caster road, limitations should be there as to weaponry.

But either way, the game is kickin my ass with alot of fun, i just hope if they go this route again make it so that you have options but that by end game everyone isnt a clone.

[LazarCotoron]

Absitively.

Like I said... when I look at games that really divided characters up by class well (in the FF line, at least), I look at FF Tactics and, to a lesser extent, FFIX. We can ALSO look at various MMO's that strictly enforce class distinctions, but the way those distinctions are enforced sort've pisses me off. The aforementioned 'I can equip a two handed mace or axe, but for some reason I am incapable of equipping swords of any kind' kind of crap. And going even further, there are too many examples of games where you 'learn' skills by spending in game resources that are ALSO restricted based on what looks like to be a "because I said so" basis. Course, to make that really work, you need to restrict the number of those in game resources much more than FFXII.

Honestly, the customization vs freedom debate is the reason I always go back to table top RPG's. At the very least, I can usually work out reasonable agreements with the GM and other players and end up playing exactly the sort of character I want to play. But y'know, that doesn't work when the GM is a computer that follows set parameters.

[Setharion]

But see i think it boils down to people feeling as if they are being done wrong if a company makes a game and says "warriors are not going to be high end casters, period". Its like thats the rules, like any other game...go back to the world of checkers, monopoly etc...the games had their rules and other games had their rules.

Now i know gaming is a bit different but in a general scheme of things just think of them as a rule that was set by the creator of the game.

Some games are open ended in what can be done with character creation, some are more strict...and as much as i understand the semantics of if someone saying that it makes no sense as a caster why i cant cluch the sword of power or something, but then in the same breath admitting that well they cant do much with it being they are casters. You then have to sit back and think, is it really going to affect the game if just within the rules you simply cant equip a huge sword on casters mainly due to why would they want too, they cant use it nor would want too.

As i said before...heres something i could accept. That at the start of a game everyone has the potential to be anything. But they cant be good at everything.

So if you wanted to be half caster/half swordsman then you will be great at neither but can do a little at both. If you want to be a full blown caster than you are just that and arent going to be able to equip a huge 2 hand axe or anything, but most likely daggers or staves. Straight up swordsman or weaponsmaster, same deal.

This way then it keeps everything into perspective, there is total choice but to keep things interesting there are restrictions on how good you will be if you float off your main course. Which i think is a fine way of keeping to tradtion of the RPG genre.

[LazarCotoron]

Honestly, I think it's just crappy item design. In Final Fantasy, weapons are assigned an arbitrary number that higher means better. Arguably, higher is always better, but the approach is somewhat different.

In FFXII for instance, you can make a caster character really suck at casting by stuffing them in heavy armor. And maybe I'm just too early, but Basch is nothing that resembles a good caster-he'd be lucky to make 'decent' me thinks.

In say D&D though, the game doesn't penalize you because you're a wizard wielding a sword. But in all likelihood, with a maximum of 4 HP (not counting any bonuses you might have) per level, you're going to look really stupid when you go down like a sack of wet flower after that Ogre smacks you the FIRST time.

By the same token, and again, I use D&D because I think it really does this right, a Warrior is not going to use a Wizard's staff. The only thing about the staff that makes it any good at all is the fact that a caster (or those cheating Rogues) can use it to cast spells that are stored in it.

So, when I say it's stupid that you can't wield it because the game says you 'can't', I really mean that. I feel there are much better ways than class restrictions to have players choose to make more focused characters. Honestly, at this point, the restrictions feel like they walked out of a nerds fantasy story about four 'Light Warriors' nearly 20 years ago.

And considering when FFI was made...

[VeloZer0]

I have no problems with everyone being able to learn all skills/augments/magic but I do take issue with the fact that everyone can have everything active at once.

Using V as an example, everyone can master every job. Although mastering all the jobs does increase your Bare character stats equally you can never have all the jobs equipped. You must pick and chose. You can make all your characters clones if you wish, or you can make a properly balanced party.
Hypothetically using this system allows you to use any character you wish for anything, allowing full customization, but still creating a character set up element.

Using a system like XII all your characters very quickly become clones of the best set up unless you deliberately decide to set them up in a different manner because you think it looks cooler. As for them taking quite a while to all become clones, don't make me laugh. Very early in the game you have all the useful augments mastered and the rest of the game is just purchasing equipment skills as you get it and filling up the license board.

[Slothy]

Using a system like XII all your characters very quickly become clones of the best set up unless you deliberately decide to set them up in a different manner because you think it looks cooler. As for them taking quite a while to all become clones, don't make me laugh. Very early in the game you have all the useful augments mastered and the rest of the game is just purchasing equipment skills as you get it and filling up the license board.

Like I said, the only way you're going to make everyone clones is if you deliberately try to make them all clones and spend absurd amounts of time level grinding. I'm level 33 right now with my main party, and 35 hours in. Even using Gold Amulets for the past 5-10 hours to essentially double the amount of license points they get, they don't have all of the augments mastered, and I'm only now starting to come even close to reaching the end of the armour, weapon, and skill sections I planned for each of them. I don't know what your definition of early on in the game is, but most people wouldn't consider it to be 35 hours in. Perhaps relative to the overall length of the game you could say it's still fairly early, but I'd estimate I'm still a good 10 hours or more from being near the end of the skills I plan on my characters learning. You can't honestly expect me to believe that's very early in the game can you? Then again, I don't spend rediculous amounts of time level grinding like I'm sure some people do.

[VeloZer0]

I have no idea on the time, but I had most of what I wanted by the time I got to Raithwall's Tomb and I didn't level all that much. As for making characters clones, for each character I picked what I felt would benefit them the most. The reason they became clones is because the game does not reward diversity in character setup.

If the game had encouraged having a varied party but still had the option of making clones it would be a little different.

I am really pointing out two flaws in the game, one that there is no reason not to make people clones, (in my opinion clones are the best way to go) and the fact that at the end of the game all the characters must become clones.

[LazarCotoron]

Maybe that's why my characters each 'feel' like they have a different role then. By Raithwall's Tomb, I had delineated my characters into armor types and roles that *I* felt were working for them. And it really has made a huge difference in what each character does in my party.

Vaan is my Mage who covers melee support. He's not the most powerful of fighters in my party, but he doesn't need to be because he's one of the games fast characters. In fact, his speed was the primary reason I made him my main caster.

Balthier is in the heavy support role. Flat out, the man is just hard to kill, and besides that, he's using my only packet of Silent Shot, which is very useful in all the right situations.

Fran... it took me a while to figure Fran out. I've determined that Fran is like Vaan, only more fighter and less mage-something that makes sense when you consider Vaan is definately designed around the old FF thief build, and when you consider that in FFTA the Vierra never get particularly good with magic-they just have the flexibility for it. Fran seems to fight best with 2 handed weapons, though I'm going to be giving her that new bow I got and we'll see how that goes this time.

Basch... yeah. Basch is a warrior. With some training, he might make a decent Paladin, but I prefur Basch with Regen and Berserk on him at all times. He's my hulking brute who breaks stuff.

Ashe is like a traditional Red Mage in her flexibility and a Blue Mage in her melee prowess. In fact, power wise, she's everything that I always loved about Quistis in FFVIII. ...on a purely unrelated note, why did FFVIII have a great cast, a crappy story, and a broken system? You wanna talk about characters that became clones, whoo... Ashe fills the role of my 'other' party leader.

Penelo is my other Mage, and my other gunner. Penelo is kind've like Balthier in my party-she doesn't really have a role of her own, but she fills in quite nicely for anyone else, especially Vaan when the enemies are flyers.

Like I said, this whole 'problem' feels kind've artificial to me, and I really think that if gear did more than just affect some numbers this whole topic wouldn't exist.

[VeloZer0]

It works out fine if your goal if variety, but when I set up my characters I was going for what I thought would be the strongest party, and variety did not factor into that one bit. I'm trying to keep it vague here because this isn't the place for arguments about best character set up, but suffice to say I feel one way of setting up a character is far superior to any others and that’s what I’m basing it off.

I should not be able to easily go through the game with 3 clone characters, and I'm not just talking about a token boss or two that rewards a certain type of build (which is ridiculously easy if you cloned that type).

[Renmiri]

License Board = One of the Best systems ever

I liked it a lot.... Then by level 30 I filled all the top board (except on accessories and the 5th gambit or higher, which I didn't need. So all my characters now can cast, heal and hit the same. Yuck!

I also found out that axes are pretty good weapons so the bottom board needs very little filling. Armor, shields and some level 5 bows for Fran and Balthier, that's pretty much what I've got.

On the Sphere grid at least you started with some vastly different characters and took almost the whole game to get them to "even out" into clones of each other.

I disagree with the "one for each" approach that some suggested above. IMHO all the LB needs is to be bigger. Put more HP and MP powerups, for instance. Or make you buy a spell / technique for EACH character. This way you end up prioritizing to save gil, but it also allows "clones" for the people who like clones. :D

[LazarCotoron]

It works out fine if your goal if variety, but when I set up my characters I was going for what I thought would be the strongest party, and variety did not factor into that one bit. I'm trying to keep it vague here because this isn't the place for arguments about best character set up, but suffice to say I feel one way of setting up a character is far superior to any others and that’s what I’m basing it off.

Mine friendnik, I think you just solved the entire conundrum.

If you think sharing what you did would spark a fight, it stands to reason that the system is much more flexible than you're giving it credit for because people could, as you put it, feel very strongly about what they did different from you. In fact, from the way you stated it, it sounds like I've gone and done something radically and, in your eyes, insanely different from what you felt made an optimal party. And if you did start a flame war over it, I could take it because I made the best choices I could for me and my play style. I am quite fine that it might anger someone, as well. If someone gets angry about a statement of what someone else did differently, isn't it because they feel their views challenged and thinks somewhere inside they might be wrong? I mean, that'd be petty.

Yes, eventually, everyone is basically the same. That's what happens when you have finite slots for infinite points.

Imagine for a moment the game is built for the average gamer, as opposed to we miscreants that may consider ourselves 'real gamers', or even 'hardcore gamers'. Take it a step further and figure that the system needs to be easy to understand becuase Squeenix doesn't want anyone to feel like they can't get into it because it's dizzyingly complex.

It's valid to say it could be done better. It's doubly valid to say that the past six Final Fantasy's have attempted to reinvent the wheel each time, what with the Materia System, the Junction System, whatever the hell they called IX's system, the Sphere Grid, the ...erm... FF MMO thingie-madoodle, and now the License System. Even before that, we had the Esper system and the Job Class system. We've had AP, JP, and LP-I want to say we've had SP, but that might not be in FF.

So, since you think it can be done better, let's play Game Developer. You get to be the Dev guys, and everyone else gets to be the whiners who say that they don't like this, or that that's too hard, or that you spell funny, or god knows whatever else. Nobody needs to play the stock holders because the stock holders all want the same thing-they want the game that "incidentally has whatever the hell those game people put in it" to sell completely bonzer.

It's your move. Make the perfect FF system.

[Slothy]

Mine friendnik, I think you just solved the entire conundrum.

If you think sharing what you did would spark a fight, it stands to reason that the system is much more flexible than you're giving it credit for because people could, as you put it, feel very strongly about what they did different from you. In fact, from the way you stated it, it sounds like I've gone and done something radically and, in your eyes, insanely different from what you felt made an optimal party. And if you did start a flame war over it, I could take it because I made the best choices I could for me and my play style. I am quite fine that it might anger someone, as well. If someone gets angry about a statement of what someone else did differently, isn't it because they feel their views challenged and thinks somewhere inside they might be wrong? I mean, that'd be petty.

I think we've prety much hit the nail on the head at this point. To be fair, you could have success with any party capable of keeping itself alive while dealing damage to the enemies. For some, they find it most effective to make characters exactly the same, but I've had no trouble with my characters who are each quite different in skills from one another. For my main party I've thrown Vaan into an almost pure melee/damage dealing role. He's my heavy hitter. Balthier essentially covers the status affecting magics and some technicks, while Fran has Black and White magics covered. Obviously by having them spread out into different specialties I could run into trouble if someone dies. Fran is the only one who can heal without relying on items, while Balthier is the only one who can keep up spells like protect, shell or haste. But this setup works for me.

This is what I love about the system; you can have every character be exactly the same, or split them off onto different paths and still be successful. I think it's a testament not only to the design of the license board, but the game itself that there is no one best strategy in all situations. This was something I loved about FFV and I'm glad to see that it's comeback. Like LazarCotoron said VeloZer0; you may be worried about sharing your party setup because you found something that you feel works the best for you, but my strategy is what works the best for my play strategy. I think any game that can support variety in playing styles like that, and even encourage it, must be doing something right.

[VeloZer0]

I would love to argue character build; this thread just isn't the place for it. I'll probably start a thread about it later today.

In terms of simple fixes. I think with a little bit of re-arrangement of the license board this would be possible:
- Have every character be able to get licenses like they currently do
- Make it so you can only have a certain amount of licenses active at any time, and so they have to go in order like the current learning of skills.
- The amount of license points you can have active at a time increases thought the game, most likely with level.

With these changes, for instance, you would be able to customize you characters, and clones would create great imbalances in your party. Say for example, now going heavy into magic to become a good healer requires you to forgo going heavy into physical. You would then have to re-evaluate your strategy instead of just having everyone strong melee + being able to heal adequately.
It should also probably be limited to being able to switch licenses at every save point, or some limiting factor, since you can see your enemies before you engage you could make the point of encouraging diversity moot.

Only thing I can say to top this off is increase the variety of random monsters. More flying monsters to favor range, more high HP elemental weakness monsters to favor Magic. Basically make it so if you decide to forgo an aspect of the game you actually pay for it.

[Setharion]

I just think like most other MMORPGs, and i know XII isnt one but in a sense thats the angle they were going for, that you could have full options of what you wanted a player to be...but once you picked that path that was the path you stayed on.

Now to make it more realistic is perhaps some point in the game you could acquire a profession change and switch it up.

But like other games, if you wanted ashe to be your tank then you choose a warrior style for her, if you wanted bashe your black caster then so be it...but you had to stick along these paths once you picked them.

I just think that makes for a better challenge, makes for a more complete atmosphere, makes for a better game in general and doesnt give your characters that 'cookie cutter' feel to them like im feeling right now.

Im loving this game and its just plain fun, but the cookie cutter feeling is beyond horrible.

I guess im just too old school for this stuff, to me cookie cutter type characters in games feels generic and uninspired, but thats just me though.

[Renmiri]

I think just making the license board much bigger, i.e. 3X it's current size and making you earn each HP and MP increase there (not automatically with level like now) would make it a lot more challenging and fun.
Limiting the number of active licenses like VeloZero suggested is a great idea too! :D

There was one thing that was more realistic on the Sphere grid: If you follow on the "healer" path you will have to start from scratch and take ages to get your healer to be a good swordsman. Makes sense. Real life is this way: Changing "professions" takes time. I wanted to be a singer, astronaut, ballerina and soccer champ when I was a kid, now I know that EACH path would take me a long time to get good at it so I have to choose one ;)

The License board is designed this way but it is so short that makes it meaningless: any path way too easy to change and in 1 level your guy / gal is as good as the original healer or swordsman of the team. It would be much more "realistic" (how real can mages be ?) if License Board if it was much larger and trading paths midstream made you wait 10-15 levels to get good at the new path.

[James16]

i agree wit yall, i like the way the lincense board is , u have such custimazation abilites that you can choose actually how you want to play the game not jus the way you choose to level up your chars. To me it give the game that much more of a 'your' game feeling if that makes any sense. My party is set up as... Vann is the quick , strong hitter with arcane magic an with fair healing magic, Balthier is a support fighter, hes strong an quick an is the item user, Fran is the same but she focouses on support magic, Basche is a rock so to say, hes stronger than everyone else but is a lill slower, he;s got good balck magic an time magic , Ashe is the cleric with strong healing magic an pretty good attack an penelo is jus kind of there really :p . I love it, i can jus sit there for hours on end an jus zone out an play the game.

[Setharion]

I think just making the license board much bigger, i.e. 3X it's current size and making you earn each HP and MP increase there (not automatically with level like now) would make it a lot more challenging and fun.
Limiting the number of active licenses like VeloZero suggested is a great idea too! :D

There was one thing that was more realistic on the Sphere grid: If you follow on the "healer" path you will have to start from scratch and take ages to get your healer to be a good swordsman. Makes sense. Real life is this way: Changing "professions" takes time. I wanted to be a singer, astronaut, ballerina and soccer champ when I was a kid, now I know that EACH path would take me a long time to get good at it so I have to choose one ;)

The License board is designed this way but it is so short that makes it meaningless: any path way too easy to change and in 1 level your guy / gal is as good as the original healer or swordsman of the team. It would be much more "realistic" (how real can mages be ?) if License Board if it was much larger and trading paths midstream made you wait 10-15 levels to get good at the new path.

Yea i can agree with this for how i think it could be set up, because it just makes more sense that way. Even though its like, its not all supposed to be real life or anything, there are still kind of principles id say that should stick.

I liked the sphere grid too btw, i thought that thing worked out nicely.

I honestly though when i read people say how they love the license board have to question it, because i just cant understand how people like the ability to make everyone the same thing or the fact that in the end almost everyone can be the same thing.

I think choosing a profession for each char is a classic way to build your party and then once the choice was made, you could then select the appropriate weapon and have even more choices.

I just know for me it looses something when im sitting there and i go "hm...it would be nice if my tank could ressurrect, lets toss a point over there and let him do just that" or something like that and it be possible, just takes something away from the whole idea of wanting to protect your healer, but since everyone can, who cares if a healer dies...you got 5 more.

Heh this can go round and round though, i just really enjoy more of a challenge and so far the way the game is setup its not so much of a challenge.

Enjoyable game from exploration standpoint and fighting and the story im liking too, but the character building really irks me a bit.

[Slothy]

The point I'm trying to make though VeloZer0 is that this game already caters to those who want variety in their characters and those who like to have every character have every ability without the need for any real fixing as you say. In fact, those who don't want every character to know every ability have a very simple option in front of them; simply choose not to buy every square on the board. It's a bit of a novel idea, but it's that simple. Not only that, but choosing to essentially play different classes doesn't really put you at a disadvantage (which is the point I was trying to make by bringing up my character build. By no means was I intending to steer the discussion towards that topic). If anything it may make the game a little more challenging relying on single characters for different functions, but that's hardly a bad thing.

I just find it odd to see people complain about something they chose to do as though it were a flaw inherent in the system. I don't see catering to a wide variety of play styles as a flaw. Now also keep in mind, I'm not trying to say limiting the license system a little more would be a bad thing; I just don't see how limiting the number of strategies is necessarily preferable for all players though. Some people do enjoy creating the god like characters with every ability while others prefer specific classes, and I feel this game balances both extremely well.

[LazarCotoron]

In the end, I think it's better that we remember this IS Final Fantasy we're talking about. We all have our favorite, deep driving pathos carried from FF whatever in the past-I'm a Job Class system guy myself. Y'see... I'm trying to approach this thing from the point of view of a developer for one reason-I want to develop games. I feel that a lot can be learned in these discussions, but I also feel that many people sell short what's right in front of them.

I hope I haven't offended anyone too deeply-I issue challenges to people that let them play god because I feel it's the best way to see what they're really thinking. When I hear someone complaining, I think "Uh huh, now would you stop whining long enough to tell me what you think would fix the problem?" Complaining and whining means someone doesn't feel things are working out, but it doesn't create solutions. Now, we all whine and complain some, and that's fine-it very well might be natural, in fact.

So... what I've concluded is that things are 'too' open. Just remember though, we're the 'hardcore' crowd. Squeenix sells games to people who are not us. We'd buy the game anyway sooner or later, regardless of reviews, complaints, hype, etc. The ubiquotous 'they' know that. They want to sell more copies of the game than they do to just us.

[Setharion]

I know for myself that not choosing every option is the answer, yet heres my point.

It would be like at the very start of a game theres a treasure chest that says "End game weaponry"...now sure you dont have to choose it, but its there. It just cheapens it...even though the devs may say "well this is for the crowd of gamers that dont care if they are hitting for 9,999 at level 1"...it still just ruins the feel of it even if i choose not to open it. But the temptation is far too great...perhaps you are just getting owned by a boss, its too easy to go and say well "ill go over and unlock that chest, kill the boss and never use that weapon again". It just makes for a more pure atmoshpere if the option isnt there.

WHen people say variety, i just dont get how having a tank, caster, thief, healer etc isnt enough variety, i just dont see how its fun to have everyone do every thing.

Even if its just an 'option', it takes away from a certain something and i cant quite think of the word.

For those that like it, thats great...i just know im a bit more hardcore and i like not being able to have every option open to every character. I find that it waters down the whole idea of a party in an rpg.

[VeloZer0]

While handicapping yourself (which is effectively what not learning the whole board is) is a preferred play style for some, it most certainly isn't mine. My play style is to try and optimize my characters. That is somewhat incompatible with trying to do it with only learning certain skills.

Albeit on a second play through limiting the total number of license points I spend may be viable, it is hardly an option on the first play through of a game you can't even see the whole license board. My preferred systems are ones where you can put a great deal of effort into setting up your party, FF7 and FFT being examples of my favorites. Some people may say FF7 you could just throw everything on, but I usually spend significant time making every party set up a work of art. Only problem is the system breaks down when you start mastering allot of material and then everyone can have everything you want. Still fun, but not as.

For a more moderate example, take FF9. I would equate the License Board system to every character having every ability permanently equipped when you learn them. I can't see how that would make the game more enjoyable or interesting. I would hardly call 9's system unapproachable though.

[LazarCotoron]

See, I also would tend to say that FFIX really did it right. If I had one issue with FFIX (in terms of my party), it was that Vivi was a character I needed to have in my party as much as possible. Vivi was your reliable, heavy hitting offense. Some could argue that Steiner was instead... But I seem to recall the game encouraged you to have Steiner and Vivi in the same party-something about magic sword skills.

What pleases me about the License Board is particularly, I didn't turn the game on and it was so easy to power my characters up that it was over before it began. That was my biggest problem with FFVIII. By the end of the first disc, my party was unstoppable. And what's interesting, VeloZer0, is that you have the same problem with FFVII that you do with FFXII, but you'll forgive FFVII for it. I found the materia system pretty broken as well, but it took longer to get to a point where having too much materia broke everything about the game because you didn't have that much freedom with it. It wasn't until the end where you had 12 materia slots on every character that things really started to break down.

I'm now 45 hours into FFXII and I have most of the augments I want for each of my characters. Depending on the character, the lower license boards are fairly neglected so far. What I like about the freedom of the License Board is that it doesn't punish me by forcing me to use classes of characters that *I* can't use becasue I'm not a universalist when it comes to job roles. For example, I always have trouble fitting the Summoner types into how I play Final Fantasy. I generally have problems with the dedicated melee characters, and I'm usually wondering why they punish my mages with crappy gear. FFXII hasn't done that to me, and I'm grateful for it. Course I am getting pigeon-holed into using more status magic than I'm used to, but that's ok. I'm enjoying the added strategy to those magics now that they make appreciable differences.

[VeloZer0]

FFVII becomes broken only when I try to power level my material at the end of the game, XII becomes broken simply through playing through the game. Additionally, even at the end of VII I still have to put some thought into how I will equip my characters every time I do it, in XII and X, my characters just are.

I played through IX without Vivi whenever possible, so I guess it's a play style thing. On that note though, I found IX to be the most balanced in terms of characters. All the characters were very different, yet I have played with numerous setups and have found them all to be extremely good. So, in the end its a fairly good example of what I'm looking for, you can chose your play style, you can't have everything, you will have tradeoffs for whatever you gain, you can succeed with anything.

[Wolf Kanno]

It's really about how you approach it. I'm with most people here for the system. I've finished the game and I've reached the point where characters are finally becoming supposed "clones". But you see, I still relagate my party based on how I want them to be used. Penelo is still my "white mage", Basch is my warrior, and even though he can cast Flare and Scathe, I don't let him, mostly cause he sucks at magic and I don't want to cater his equipment to make him good.

I came into the game with a set idea of how I wanted my party. I have had to change a few of my convictions (cause white magic is too useful) but interestingly enough. Even though alot of my characters share similiar skills, my party is equipped differently and used differently. The characters actually have distinctions from each other. It's suttle but it is there. I've also found that the game actually punishes you for trying to create "omni-characters". The combat system is designed around using a greater level of strategy than earlier FF's, and I have found that creating "omni-characters" destroys anyway of using strategy effectively. Now granted, your whole party is interchangeable but as I've stated before, there are slight stat differences that become blatanly obvious as the game goes along.

Besides the point of the system is to build the characters you want to build, from scratch. If you feel it "cheapens" the experience because you lack any discipline and will power, that is your fault, not the games.

I prefer the job class systems used in FFT but I don't feel the license board makes the game easier, rather it grants the player the greatest amount of freedom in an FF without being overly annoying about it like FFII was. I can build whatever I really want. When I decide to start my second game, I'm going to create even more defined characters wirth little overlap. One to make the game more challenging but also cause I really want to push the gambit system and enjoy the games finer mechanics.

[LazarCotoron]

IBesides the point of the system is to build the characters you want to build, from scratch. If you feel it "cheapens" the experience because you lack any discipline and will power, that is your fault, not the games.

I hereby declare all dissenters and whiners ROFLPWN'D.

[Setharion]

IBesides the point of the system is to build the characters you want to build, from scratch. If you feel it "cheapens" the experience because you lack any discipline and will power, that is your fault, not the games.

I hereby declare all dissenters and whiners ROFLPWN'D.


Well hey, to each his own. If people like being handed everything on a silver platter in games now and everything must cater to their every need, then so be it.

I prefer a bit more of a designed and structured layout instead of cookie cutter characters.

[LazarCotoron]

I agree that it shouldn't be handed to people.

I just disagree that it's as poorly balanced as you make it out to be. Then again, my version of leveling in these games involves me getting lost and being FORCED to spend extra time in dungeons as opposed to power leveling. I try to play the game as it comes as opposed to grind out a bunch of levels and JP before I go to the next place. If the next place kills me, THEN I grind out levels and JP. I played FFT the same way.

Power leveling of any kind ruins your personal gameplay experience. Sometimes you power level because you want to be the best. Other times because you're uncertain of when you should leave. Still others, like I do, because you're lost or can't finish a puzzle.

Course... maybe it's all perception. *shrug* VeloZer0-I want you to know that I DO respect your views. I strongly believe you're wrong, and you strongly believe I am wrong. In forums, it's usually 'talk of the day' to raz someone at the perceived end of a discussion.

I honestly did have a good time discussing this, though. Even if posting like this makes me look like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well hey, to each his own. If people like being handed everything on a silver platter in games now and everything must cater to their every need, then so be it.

I prefer a bit more of a designed and structured layout instead of cookie cutter characters.

You really haven't been paying attention to what anyone else has been saying. The point was to create your own party. The system is as structured as you want it to be.

The game allows you to even build the job class systems if you so desire. It is a designed and structured layout that doesn't give you everything "On a silver platter". Remember, you have to purchase your equipment and spells, so it's not like you can can start the game off casting Flare.

It's a flexible system that can easily cater to any player as long as they know what they really want to do. Your characters are only as generic and "cookie cutter" as you allow them to be. Everything is about choice, if you choose to let your characters all become generic omni characters it's because you have no plan or you lack the discipline to stick to a plan.

I don't mean to be hostile but I'm trying prove my point that the system isn't really the problem. I can agree with Renmiri about expanding it and giving even greater options for customization but this idea that the game system sucks cause the player has to apply the control factor is utter bull:skull::skull::skull::skull:. That's just my opinion and as you said, "to each his own" but I like to think that I'm an adult and I don't need the game to tell me that I have to follow a pre-designed path at all times in my RPGs. The game's theme was freedom and the License board gives that to us.

I'm really sorry, if I've offended you or crossed a line but I don't feel you have created a compelling argument. Just as you probably feel I haven't either. So let's just agree to disagree, or at least come back with more comical retorts...

[Setharion]

Wolf i understand that its there to create your own party, wouldnt you say most RPGs strive for that goal though too? Its not like its really something new.

But other games let you pick and choose different characters of different classes and you build your party that way, making you choose wisely as to whos going to be in it.

I understand i dont have to give everyone everything, but its kind of hard not too when you see a couple hundred LP points sitting around and then it just becomes too easy.

As an RPG vet now thas been playing them for 25 nows, im just saying that it loses something when for instance every person even your thief can cast ressurrect or could cast end game magics, that just doesnt fit into the lore of what RPGs are. But if people want to just overlook that then fine, i just prefer to stick to that outline of things.

My point is that you can have options and build your own party but still have characters designed to what they are meant to be.

For example, as i said earlier they could of made it so you have every choice to make your party how you see fit like FF1 did. If you wanted to make all thieves then do so, if you wanted all black mages, then do so. You basically picked the path of each character and then more directions open up from that.

So say i wanted Fran as my main caster...well at the start she would take a path of black magic and then from there you could choose a few other small magics to accompany her main. And youd have options of what weapon to use, staves or daggers or guns, then you could have perhaps light armor, mystic etc..and still had many many options.

But all that would simply do is just make it so Fran is going to be your big magic damage dealer yet not have the ability to crack a 2 handed sword over someones head or steal or be casting white holy magic.

Well as you said though, we need to agree to disagree and thats fine...and its all for conversational debate so no dont worry you didnt say anything over the line, i like a good debate. ;)

But for me, im an old dog with RPGs...therefore this new little razzle dazzle stuff just doesnt suit me. I like stricter, more outlined RPGs with characters having direct roles in a game and not able to be made into everything anyone else can be. Its just as i said what 25 years of gaming will do for ya, especially rpgs.

[Setharion]

That's just my opinion and as you said, "to each his own" but I like to think that I'm an adult and I don't need the game to tell me that I have to follow a pre-designed path at all times in my RPGs

One more thought before i go to work on this...see man, thats the problem right there. Guys like you act as if youre now too big for a layout such as the older rpgs offered or even RPG structure in general.

Like its a slap to your face or something when its not even about any of that. Its clearly just certain aspects that make RPGs what they are.

I dont know...i just find that saying something like that really just tries to put you on some sort of high pedestal as if people who like RPGs to have a certain structure must be kids and its a way of the game telling them what to do...i just find that kind of funny really.

Meh, i just feel when people display these kind of attitudes its what devs see and start to go down and before we know it Final Fantasy will be a first person shooter because people feel they should be able to see through the eyes of their characters or something.

Again, just going to have to majorly agree to disagree on it.

[VeloZer0]

LazarCotoron, you take all the fun out of trying to get the last word in. It is amusing to see several people trying to rip each other apart and then apologizing after each go incase they offended anyone.

Wolf Kanno, you seem to be missing my point here. You conclude the reason all my characters are clones is because I (or others who spec in this fashion) lack discipline in class customization. The point I am trying to make is character optimization is a big part of games for me. I particularly enjoy games where a great deal of time must be devoted to characters set up (Hence me liking systems like FFVII and FFT). For me a large portion of the fun of a game is gleaned from optimizing my party to be the best it can be.

In a game like XII I came with no preconceived notions as to what I would be setting up my characters as, I just played, observed and decided what I felt to be the best setup. Coincidentally I felt this best set up to be clones, which I feel is a problem with game balance. My roommate who thinks much like I do in terms of optimization did come into the game with a pre-conceived party setup and gradually moved over to clones because he was also looking to create the best party.

In conclusion a system like the License Board offers extremely little to the gamer who likes involved character set up and optimization.

[Setharion]

LazarCotoron, you take all the fun out of trying to get the last word in. It is amusing to see several people trying to rip each other apart and then apologizing after each go incase they offended anyone.

Wolf Kanno, you seem to be missing my point here. You conclude the reason all my characters are clones is because I (or others who spec in this fashion) lack discipline in class customization. The point I am trying to make is character optimization is a big part of games for me. I particularly enjoy games where a great deal of time must be devoted to characters set up (Hence me liking systems like FFVII and FFT). For me a large portion of the fun of a game is gleaned from optimizing my party to be the best it can be.

In a game like XII I came with no preconceived notions as to what I would be setting up my characters as, I just played, observed and decided what I felt to be the best setup. Coincidentally I felt this best set up to be clones, which I feel is a problem with game balance. My roommate who thinks much like I do in terms of optimization did come into the game with a pre-conceived party setup and gradually moved over to clones because he was also looking to create the best party.

In conclusion a system like the License Board offers extremely little to the gamer who likes involved character set up and optimization.

Velo i see what you mean now, the fact that the 'best' party in this game is a group of clones is what makes it a problem and thats what i agree with too, 100%.

Thats the thing too...we shouldnt have to have discipline in making a party and not giving them everything...lacking discipline is so not the problem. I workout and lift and been doing it for years, i know how to have discipline and what not.

I just like to think of it like an actual MMO in which this game was based upon, and i didnt play FFXI, but from my years of MMO the special thing about it was how everyone had their job and that was their job.

You had your buffers, your tanks, your casters, your rogues etc...all of which served their purposes to that of their professions. If everyone was the same thing would it have that same feel too it? Peoples reputations were built around their classes. Certain names just followed the class they were, and they were known as a "great magician" or a "great tank"...i just think it would of lost something in the transition if everyone was great at everything. Because in all technicalities, there is no 'class' so to speak for a jack of all trades in the RPG world.

And its no different here i feel, just the fact that you can toss heavy armor on a pure mage is just so...off. Maybe for people that dont really care about the roots to an RPG its no big deal, but for people that still uphold the roots to an rpg its a big deal.

But anyways, Velo i just wanted to say i see your point.

[Rabidewok]

"just the fact that you can toss heavy armor on a pure mage is just so...off."

Sure you can do that.. but their Magic damage or healing won't be as much..

IMO if you make clones then you must not have a very powerful imagination... And i'm not saying don't 100% fill the board cuz you can customize your characters just as well if you do.

Right now I just use. Vaan, Basch and Penelo. I honestly don't really like the others.. But that doesn't matter cuz they get LP anyways so when i do decide to use them they'll have 4k LP.

Vaan and Basch are my tanks. Armed with shields for less damage taken and vaan has a Rare secret sword, Demonsbane (just got it) and Basch uses an Axe (even though axes' damage isn't 100% full it still does great damage at most of the time) Penelo was going to be my magic user, dark magic w/e then found that basch and vaan kill things in a combo of their 2 hits and penelo just wasted mana.. so she reverted to a bow weilding caster and debuffer.

You just have to make the characters what you want... You can still do this by 100% the LP board.

[Setharion]

Sure you can do that.. but their Magic damage or healing won't be as much..

Sure it will be, it will suffice more than it should. Ive already experimented with it.

And its not a matter of not having an imagination...believe me, i been around the block with rpgs and have played alot in 25 years.

I just find the principle that there are no set classes a downfall, and if alot of people love it then thats fine...im just glad other rpgs out there do it the way its meant to be done, it just so happens FFXII makes it a bit too easy if you ask me.

As i said, im enjoying the game...skills and classes though are a major letdown.

[LazarCotoron]

LazarCotoron, you take all the fun out of trying to get the last word in. It is amusing to see several people trying to rip each other apart and then apologizing after each go incase they offended anyone.

Oh, that. That's just my version of PC because it's expected in our day and age. I'll say the bad thing and mean it. Your view does matter, though-just not to me.

The problem that I really have with your complaint is that it's one of those RPG 'purist' complaints-and I should know about those, I GM pen and paper for several different games. It also reeks of rules lawyering and mini maxing-though mini maxing doesn't piss me off so much because I expect my players to do the very best they can given their limitations. The idea that the 'game' is at fault is utterly rediculous because the game is designed around the system so it can be balanced in and of itself. Now, I admit-FF has a storied history about completely breaking the game-we need look no further than FFVIII and what an hour of looking for spells can do.

I just really can't agree with you that the License Board breaks the game. I strongly suspect that this is purely because I'm looking at it from my PoV, and there's something you did that I didn't that made things go boink. The encounters are interesting, and it's the first FF since FFVI that killed me in an out and out fair fight, as opposed to cheap shots and unbelievable mishaps. To ME, a game that beats me through matched even combat is pretty damn balanced.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just not as good at Final Fantasy as you. And y'know, from what you're saying, maybe I don't wannabe.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm sorry if my one comment came off as "high and mighty". I didn't intend it like that:eek: . See, I understand where your coming from cause you are only a year older than me, but I feel our experiences with 20+ years of RPGs have given us a different outlook.

Now personally, I like structured systems like you do. I feel FFT has the greatest system of any game. But lately, it feels to me that "customization" to the developer means I can have a good mage or I can have an excellent mage and nothing else. My mage is still just a mage, only the quality is different. Most rpg's I've played are incredibly rigid and leave little room for real personalization. I've also never been one to feel that people should be bound by rules unless they choose it for themselves. But that's another topic entirely....

My point is that I feel that most RPG's as of late, bind themselves too greatly in the stereotypes that came before them. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I don't feel it has to be an unwritten rule. Sometimes we have to change the rules and learn to grow. If we hold onto it too much, we become stagnate and unable to adapt. I feel the license board gives us a chance to really experiment, to try new things and to grow out of our former conceptions of how things have to be.

It's funny I should say this though. I actually went into the game with how I wanted to use each character and I stuck to it for the longest time. I ended up building my "own" structure, based on FFT. Basch was my Knight/Samurai, Vaan was my Theif/Ninja, Penelo was my White Mage/ Oracle... I pretty much used what the license board had given me, built my desired party, and designed my gambits around building strategy. When I start my second playthrough I'm hoping to create a list/path on the liscence board to build the job classes so other people can try to play "pure character classes".

As I've said, the liscence board is what you make of it and percieve it. I chose to build "pure characters", I don't think of Basch as just "random generic party member 3" Basch is my Paladin now, and he's saved my ass quite a few times. It's how I decided to build him, and I wouldn't change it for a cheap victory. He already gets alot of renown from me and he isn't even real. But I take great satisfaction in bulding him like I did.

It's all in how you choose to use the system and I am happy to have this kind of freedom. I know that we'll never see anything like it for a long time so I'm enjoying it while I can. If you feel that it's ability to break all the conventional rules bother you, then there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. I'm only happy that I was able to better understand your reasonings and I hope now you have a better understanding of mine.

As for optimizing my party VeloZer0, I completely understand where you are coming from. I'm one of those crazy people who abuses systems in order to see how much I can do. I do the weird insane challenges that people come up with and I understand the satisfaction of building a perfect character within a restrictive system. But as I've stated above, the system is only as generic as you allow it to be. You see, while building my characters classes, I get to abuse and use another part of the system. The Gambit system. I built specific characters with little overlap and spent hours on building effective strategies in using them with the Gambit system.

It's incredibly challenging at times cause as you stated, Omni characters can fight in any situation. But I'm trying to build strategies for my specific classes. It has alot of trial and error but the satisfaction of building "pure characters" and using an almost flawless strategy to take down something like Vyraal or Gilgamesh brings such euphoric satisfaction:cool: It's still there, it's just different and it takes awhile to get use to the radical system changes that none of us are used to.

[Setharion]

Wolf heres the thing, key word for me, tradition.

The one thing that irritates me about this generation is nobody is every happy with tradition, people act like they will die if they are in a similar situation. Innovation is all people care about, when all it does is create ridiculous aspects to games or music or whatever format all of the sake of 'innovation'.

I just get tired of the moaning that people do when they say "awww well i just want the freedom to do this or that"...when it boils down to some things are best kept left alone.

I mean for example, heres a good showing of tradition. The NFL...i been watching football and playing it my whole life...dont you think i should be tired of it now after 28 years? I mean really...its still the same old thing, kickoff, team tries to go from one end of the field to the other, punt, other teams turn and on and on for 3 hours. But why doesnt it get old? Because for one i 'love' the sport, and i love the tradition of it all.

I mean think about it...i bet alot of players wish by now they had the freedom to chop block someone or body slam someone, but they cant due to rules and tradition. The game is just what it is and the idea isnt going to change.

The key to football though is what happens in between, from start to finish, point A to B.

And thats where i compare RPGs, the goals the ideas the tradition of it all imho should stay the same, for those that love the genre will love the genre no matter what.

Its a matter of what happens from start to finish. The friendships, the betrayals, the upsets, the defeats, the victories etc...all of this compiled together is make an rpg interesting and exciting. And like football, to me, the rules have been set when it comes to how a game should be done or the feeling you get. Now im not saying there cant be tweaks, sure there can...but major overhauls is where it just bums me out a bit.

Now take football again...its a team sport, just like most rpgs are a team setting. You arent going to have some of those huge linemen doing what the recievers can do, or have the recievers doing what the lineman or QBs can do...they all have their abilities that they bring to the table.

I know its just a game, but i mean some standards should be kept even though its just a game. I mean to get technical with that kind of viewpoint to say its just a game, then why cant in a game like Final Fantasy i have a rocket launcher to shoot, i mean its only just a game...why would it matter? But see dont you think someone would say "rocket launchers in a game like FF just wouldnt fit, it would ruin the atmosphere". Im going to guess most would think that.

So then to sum it all up, its just how i feel about everyone having the 'option' to be clones. Even though its not a must, which i understand...its just something that i feel shouldnt be there due to the standards of this kind of game set.

Just like other genres, the standards and what not have been set.

But hey, i understand people have other views...i just would think that most RPG advocates would really appreciate the roots of the genre and want that to be instilled in their games instead of wanting change after change all for the sake of saying they need something innovative.

But anywhos, the horse is laying there twitching right now lol i think thats about all she wrote for this topic.

Edit: Just one more thing...as i said somewhere in this thread, im fine with having choices. Choices within a class...if you went with caster for Fran i just feel that she should be out of the skills to weild an axe or something. But she could have alot of choices within her casting as to what kinds and what sorts of mage weapons to use and armors etc...there still could of been a bunch of choices but he character would of became 'the caster' and thats her role to help the team. Thats just how i would of liked to see it...give people choice to make all casters if they wanted or all tanks, but once the class is set youd then have some limitations within that class, but enough options to keep it interesting.

[LazarCotoron]

I don't believe I have ever or will ever see again Final Fantasy compared to the NFL in an intelligent fashion.

And that's just the rub, isn't it? Tradition is why we come back, but each time they reinvent the wheel they get further and further away from what we're used to. The complexities of the old time fans fight with the changing times. There are things in RPG tradition that are truly archaic, but not all of those things are bad, are they?

I kinda' agree that the LB system is a bit on the easy side. It's just in context of FFXII... Well, you wanted to talk about tradition, so let's go there. Can you honestly tell me what everyone in FFXII does just by looking at them-I can't. None of them are wearing actual armor of any kind, so not a one of them is a warrior. None of them have pointy wizard hats or glowing yellow eyes, so that's out too. I sorta' must've missed the white robes and red triangles on anyone... I sure as hell don't see anyone in armor stylized to look draconic.

I believe in innovation strongly because I've seen a lack of real innovation kill off my favorite genre, and there's not going to be anyone who would argue that about 2D sidescrollers (c'mon, I LOVE Mega Man, and even I'm starting to think that we need to sit down and have an Old Yeller moment). And I mentioned earlier that some innovations are flat out bad (Junction System, anyone?). Just to do a thing out of tradition blindly is foolish-that'd be like people in Salem getting together to stone witches because it's 'tradition'.

But tradition should celebrated since it makes up rich part of who we are and where we've been. And in regards to tradition, my feelings on FFXII are mixed at the best. The Lucavi are a 'new tradition' in a sense, having been spawned by FFT, and they are the best demonic fell beings I have ever seen represented in a fantasy game outside of pen and paper games. And by the best, I mean it's not even close. In FFXII, they've made them Espers-and given the world of Ivalice (also a new tradition since FFT), I could see the people of that world calling them that. Ivalice itself is a good tradition, and has undergone significant change when Tactics Advance came out. From the changes that were done there, we have the most gorgeous world in the entire RPG genre, and it came out of a game that most people abandoned because it was 'different'.

But there are traditions that really don't have a place in Final Fantasy anymore. The series classic trademark monsters have places in FFXII-and every time a Bomb or Marlboro shows up, it's forced. Course, then there's the Demon Wall-something that hasn't been done since FFV. And that was done so well that I can't imagine that part of the game without it-it was an intractable experience to have it come back. And for god sakes, WHERE'S MY BLACK MAGE!? No steepled hats, glowing eyes, mysterious strangers in cloaks..

I complain at your complaining because I can tell some people have some nasty decisions to make. It sounds like many of them left Square during the making off FXII because they could not in good conscience back the decisions that were being made.

It's been coming for a while, if you look back at the grumbling every time a new game was released. FFXI avoided it by being different in as many ways as possible, so most people don't exactly count it.

I'm not surprised that we, and especially I, have taken this too far in here a few times. If anything, my circle of friends were thinking that FFXII was going to bring it back and do it right, but FFXII has moved in a very different direction from that. I imagine some of my friends and those like my friends are probably feeling abandoned by 'their' game.

*Pokes the horse with a stick*

[Setharion]

*pokes the horse in his eye*

:p yea i see where you are coming from ,but one of my final thoughts on it would be this.

I wouldnt of minded if they wanted to set a new trend or style of game with a 'new title'. Then it would be its own thing, just like FF did back in 87 or 88 was it.

It could of been a brand new series called "everlasting lore" or something and had all this stuff that they used. And i would of had an easier time ridin with that.

But for me i just feel, leave something that isnt broken untouched for the sake of keeping it classic.

Its all in the person, i guess im the weirdo because im just not striving for that change in things. Perhaps because ive had so many other things change my life beyond my control when it comes to family members passing a way and such, is why i just guess i cling to the old days for things and am not one that just like i said strives for that need to change.

That poor horse :cry:

[Renmiri]

I don't believe I have ever or will ever see again Final Fantasy compared to the NFL in an intelligent fashion.

On the collectors edition there is an interview with FFXII's game designer where he discusses it at length. Very cool too :D I'll see if I upload it to youtube after X-mas.

[Wolf Kanno]

Believe me, I understand the idea of tradition, especially with the FF series. I've finished all but a two of them (FFIII and FFXI). And honestly, I prefer the older games way more than the newer ones. Even FFXII ranks below FFIV and FFVI in my mind.

But one tradition of the FF series is innovation. Each game always tries to break the boundaries, whether in story, cinematics, graphics, or gameplay. But another tradition is that a game comes along every so often that reels the series in and reminds us of our roots. This is why FFIX was more appealing to the older fans who had started on the older games. FFXII does this as well, not in gameplay though. The world itself is a reminder to us of what an FF world is supposed to be like and I love the game for it. The gameplay was the developers trying to basically reinvent the wheel so to speak.

That's fine, I like the LB/Gambit system but it's still not my favorite system. I prefer the older style of games but I won't let my bias' blind me into believing that anything new is automatically evil or wrong. Now it seems to me that you have played this system going in with an open mind and you just came to the conclusion you don't like it. It pretty much comes back to your sense of tradition within the series. Now that's fine with me, you don't care for it. I like the system, but even I don't want it to be standard for the series. So we have some common ground.

The thing, is my idea of tradition within the series is different and I probably have a much more loose view of it than you do. Nothing wrong with either view though. I just play the system and see it for the well crafted stragetic wonder that it is. It gives me freedom to be completely crazy or even to be cut-throat traditional, the gambit system builds the other half of the system allowing me to have a level of strategy in the series I haven't seen in the main series since FFV.

Basically, my main argument is that the system is technically designed to appease both sides of the debate. The crazy young innovaters who like playing god with their characters and the "old geezers" like you and me who prefer a more defined and strategic approach. I just find it odd that you are decrying a system just because it allows a mage to wield a giant two handed axe and wear leather armor and yet still be able to cast Flare, when it comes down to it,even though you don't have to make it that way. It just seems rather OC to me rather than a real argument.

Hell even Tactics allowed you to get mages who could equip heavy armour or use swords. Doubt any one really did but the choice was always there. To be perfectly honest with you, I felt the same way when I first heard about the system. It bothered me that the characters had no classes and the LB seemed rather random to me. But then I got really deep into the game and looked at the board and realized my classes were there. Sure I had to make do with a few things and I lost quite a bit of the hardcore stat differences in the class system. But I realized the flexibility of the system and how I can work it to what I wanted it to be.

The main difference between us in the end, is simply the fact that I can ignore the possibilty of non-traditional elements in my game, you cannot. I don't believe either view is wrong and I understand the idea to maintain the status quo but I just feel that FFXII doesn't really break the status quo or any tradition really. It just allows us to bend the rules a little more than even the job class system did. To me the Liscence board is basically a less structured Job class system. By sacrificing a bit of the old structure, though, the player was granted a greater level of freedom than we have ever been given. I don't think that reason alone is for the system to be condemned, though I don't feel it should be excepted whole heartedly either.

Yeah, definetly beating this poor horse's corpse like it owes me money:p

[LunaticPandora37]

IMO the liscense board reminds me of a mix between the materia and sphere grid combined, cuz in FFVII it was same kind of deal. you could have your characters be all the same (sides the weapons) but if you make everone a tank with swords you're gonna be screwed.