The Mythology of Science, life and christmas road tolls

[Besimudo]

Modern Science has its share of mythology. Generally Scientists disdain philosophy (while forgetting that science is a branch of philosophy) and argue mythology is irrational. This is a trend as people move from their innate human faculties toward an externally self evident universe.

Science has introduced relativism into every form of human knowledge, and this certainly has limitations: Only that the speed of light is not constant. Keynesian economics (based on relative demand) creates economic paradox (stagflation). Abstract art is ludicrous. And atonal music is relative to the listener.

As we scientists, however, love to declare: it wasn't in the calculations.

This is about as self-defeating as the astrologer who merely chances prophecy.

Let us get over our disposition of real and myth and hold respect and value for all human knowledge.

Myths unfold in every circumstance of human life. From the enrage Medea who kills her own children at the cost of her husbands infidelity, to the tormented saviour, who at the very least represents our abysmal physical suffering by daytime, and our rejuvenation found in the comfort of dream-time at night.

Mammals are, after all, kings of the night and the promethian gift ensured that humans would seize and conquer both day and night. And this is a myth for both the mind of day and night.

But as we have our livers shredded by the dawning of sun: dealing with work, the injured, the dying and starving; equally our spirits are invigorated by the infinite world of night and mind.

Is space mind? Indeed. It cannot be measured by physics, it is merely a construction of our thinking - while planets, energy and dark matter are all measurable to some extent. The infinite plane rests in the realm of philosophy.

If you don't believe in astrology, take a look at this:

Charles Martin Hall (December 6, 1863–December 27, 1914) was an American inventor and engineer. He is best known for his discovery in 1886 of an inexpensive method for producing aluminium.

The French scientist Paul (Louis-Toussaint) Héroult (April 10, 1863–May 9, 1914) was the inventor of the aluminium electrolysis, also in 1886, and of the electric steel furnace.

Their inextricably parallel lives defined an era of industrial chemistry. Aluminium was the first metal to gain widespread use since the prehistoric discovery of iron. Given that both men worked independently, separated by the Atlantic divide, deriving their numerological and metaphysical circumstance invariably leads our imagination back to a time when the gift of fire was bestowed by Prometheus.


This is nothing but an example of the metaphysical realm. Yes, Humans do have a science for analysing this type of information, but it is more akin to the mind than the body. It is not a waste of time. It produces meaning to our lives and our place in the universe. We are not here to abuse our existence with technology and pillage the earth with consumerism. Myths extend our sciences and knowledge base by affecting the core (reptilian brain). When we hear a myth it does not change or conscious mind, but moves the body and challenges our spirit. How many inventions are due to luck? There is nothing logical about it. The scientist is at times more like a magician. His language has merely changed from verse, then to prose and today mathematics. But, the inventing is still done in verse.

I believe we need to be more aware of our arrogant conscious mind. It seeks to calculate and devise means to an end, rather than seeking harmony.

The best examples are the weather, markets and politics. Try using your conscious mind to predict either and you will most likely fail. Those who go with the moment succeed.


I hope that we can enjoy the adventure of myth and explore life beyond gravity, floods, tax returns and examining George Bush's terms of reference.

When was the last time warriors wept for the fallen enemy? Why is the hero’s place higher than the gods? Heroism places a floor for all those who would like to do good but cannot: That is for a cop to do, I will walk on by and ignore the hapless victim; that is for a fireman to extinguish … Only the good die young.

Perhaps, if our offerings were sacred, we might learn to enjoy rather than over-indulge. When people are lying in hospital do they ever wish that they had watched more television?

Escape the manacles of polyphemus. The T.V. enslaves us in our dark caves as did the one eyed Cyclops. It too has one eye, and has usurped parents, religion and teachers. The T.V. has taken out youth and condemned them troglodytes. Or, are we too busy riding our saurons, fuelled by the earthen-blood of dinosaurs, screeching when the breaks are hastily applied; and, driving everyone to insanity and death (see road rage)

Merry Christmas, but I fear the road toll. Why do we do it to ourselves?


Thank you for reading.

[Dr Unne]

If you don't believe in astrology, take a look at this:
I looked and I still don't believe in astrology. It's just coincidence.

The best examples are the weather, markets and politics. Try using your conscious mind to predict either and you will most likely fail. Those who go with the moment succeed.
Who would you trust to warn you a hurricane was coming: a meteorologist with weather satellites and radar and planes full of instruments, or some guy "going with the moment"? I think I'll stick with the scientist personally.

The rest of your post made very little sense as well.

[Bart's Friend Milhouse]

Wow. Somebody actually understood what he said

[Odaisé Gaelach]

Merry Christmas, but I fear the road toll. Why do we do it to ourselves?

http://www.rackandshelf.com/images/Tollbooth.jpg

Whhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyy??????? :weep:

[Besimudo]

It is too bad that the people of the south were not warned about the hurricanes.

Also, you cannot ignore the fact that Aluminium was a significant change in industrial chemistry. Both scientists were born in the same year, discovered the same process in the same year, and, also died in the same year.

Strange?

Your Baconian rationalism comes from Elizabethan times. A time when humans thought the Cartesian method could reveal all. Plain. It cannot. The world is not rational.

Besides, modern society likes technology and material reality. How can society tax the mind? Oh, the psychologists are already trying that. And when we think that we understand the mind scientifically, that will also become the realm of finance and administration.

Already, the biologists have control of humankind’s embryos: to improve our lives? No, to make a profit!

If you do not believe in Astrology, well I don't believe in modern medicine when it acts as a vector for pathogens and inadvertently kills.

No, no, that was not possible ... well guess what tax payer funded medical man ... IT WAS!


My position is this. It is OK to deny our rich cultural heritage, and extol the benefits of the modern world, all the while covering up the ills of technology.




As for hurricanes ... they must have been phenomenal for the English settlers, coming from a physically ordered world in England, and then experiencing the powers of new gods. What ever happened to gravity ... Well, well that works when we do these calculations ..... ;)



At the end of the day, we need to challenge ideas; otherwise we cement our feet in reality … whatever that is.

[Dr Unne]

It is too bad that the people of the south were not warned about the hurricanes.
Are you referring to Katrina? They were warned. There was poor planning and poor reaction, but the fact that they had any warning at all is thanks to science. Would a guy "going with the moment" have done better? This is absurd to the point that I can hardly discuss it seriously.

Also, you cannot ignore the fact that Aluminium was a significant change in industrial chemistry. Both scientists were born in the same year, discovered the same process in the same year, and, also died in the same year.

Strange?
Strange as in coincidence, sure. But it doesn't mean anything. Human beings are good at finding patterns even when no underlying cause exists. It's a survival trait. Not every pattern is an indication of something significant.

To claim that some otherworldly force had something to do with the inventions of these people takes credit away from two resourceful and intelligent people who probably deserve it.

Already, the biologists have control of humankind’s embryos: to improve our lives? No, to make a profit!
Surely the life of a person who can't otherwise conceive a child is improved when science enables it. Surely the child itself who would otherwise never have been born would be grateful. If you think life is not improved by science, feel free to live as our ancestors did. I don't think you'll have time for posting in this thread though, you'll be too busy trying not to starve to death, and probably dead before you're 30. Unless you believe astrology can provide you with a computer.

If you do not believe in Astrology, well I don't believe in modern medicine when it acts as a vector for pathogens and inadvertently kills.
You're free not to believe in medicine. I wouldn't place bets on your outliving someone who does. You can deny reality all you want, but reality has a way of being real whether you care about it or not.

I don't believe in astrology because it's bunk. It's wishful thinking.

At the end of the day, we need to challenge ideas; otherwise we cement our feet in reality … whatever that is.
Sure, challenge ideas. Some ideas are more worth challenging than others. Challenge for the sake of challenge is pointless and ridiculous. Do you challenge that the sun will rise tomorrow? I would not want to live life constantly bewildered and unable to understand anything around me, and thankfully I don't have to. There comes a point where denying reality crosses the line into insanity.

[Odaisé Gaelach]

...but reality has a way of being real whether you care about it or not.

I like that! :D

[blim]

Only that the speed of light is not constant.

it is constant in a vacuum



Myths unfold in every circumstance of human life. From the enrage Medea who kills her own children

only in Euripedes version i believe



If you don't believe in astrology, take a look at this:

Charles Martin Hall (December 6, 1863–December 27, 1914) was an American inventor and engineer. He is best known for his discovery in 1886 of an inexpensive method for producing aluminium.

The French scientist Paul (Louis-Toussaint) Héroult (April 10, 1863–May 9, 1914) was the inventor of the aluminium electrolysis, also in 1886, and of the electric steel furnace.

As inventors work is based on previous advances it is plausible that two people would work on similar ideas at the same time independently, eg Darwin and Wallace

[Besimudo]

"it is constant in a vacuum"

Indeed, but the public perception of science embraces all reality, and hence, it has become quasi-religious. Light, per se, does not hold constant, relativism does have limits. Much like stimulating demand in an economy via the AD curve. Sure it works but it has its limits.

"only in Euripedes version i believe"

You are very erudite in your understanding. Yes, yes it demonstrated that even rationally sound people were capable of vengeance. Jason's mockery is not to be taken lightly at all.

A police officer once attended a crime scene where the enraged wife had placed her child in a frying pan due to her husbands infidelity .... these myths are very dark, and very true.

"As inventors work is based on previous advances it is plausible that two people would work on similar ideas at the same time independently, eg Darwin and Wallace"

Yep, Darwin and Wallace were children of Malthusianism. A theory of his design is expected. The Greeks suggested that Humans evolved from fish. And Democritus set the scene for the atom. Yes, yes ... how we scientists forget the philosophers - for their insights provide the means of our labour. Mathematics, another child of philosophy has little regard for its parent. Yet we grab onto the ideas of writers and philosophers everyday without being cognizant i.e. the big-bang was devloped not by a scientist but a writer.


"Strange as in coincidence, sure. But it doesn't mean anything. Human beings are good at finding patterns even when no underlying cause exists. It's a survival trait. Not every pattern is an indication of something significant.

To claim that some otherworldly force had something to do with the inventions of these people takes credit away from two resourceful and intelligent people who probably deserve it."


Never said that. Just that myth was a mode of description. it is our core. myths appear everywhere.

Somebody denying myth is about as good as an evangelist denying natural evolution. We have polarized our knowledge bases.

Scientist: Logical, reproducible, real

Priest: irrational, fictional, myth

Yet, two striking contradictions are ever present: Scientist, inspired inventor and Priest, leader of humanity.

Humanity is real, inspiration is not ... it comes from the mind.

"Surely the life of a person who can't otherwise conceive a child is improved when science enables it. Surely the child itself who would otherwise never have been born would be grateful. If you think life is not improved by science, feel free to live as our ancestors did. I don't think you'll have time for posting in this thread though, you'll be too busy trying not to starve to death, and probably dead before you're 30. Unless you believe astrology can provide you with a computer."

Big assumptions here ... people lived into their 80's in the past. In fact Jeanne Clement smoked and contradicted medicine to live until 122. Your Gaussian rhetoric tries to fit the bell curve on everything. Plain and simple.

In the past we might have been out on adventure, rather than wasting precious fossil fuels on internet chat.

And, astrology is a computer. Your knowledge of Megalithic achievement is lacking. Also see the Aztec predictions of downfall.



"You're free not to believe in medicine. I wouldn't place bets on your outliving someone who does. You can deny reality all you want, but reality has a way of being real whether you care about it or not.

I don't believe in astrology because it's bunk. It's wishful thinking."


Indeed I am. Most of our drugs are hijacked from native people. 90% of the world still relies on herbal medicine ... it is only the protestant countries that typically hack and slash with a few catholic nations. Besides, the Chinese have achieved the longest life span without modern medicine and it ain’t much worse than in the west.


Anyhow, What about CANCER OOPS. That just collapsed your modern hypothesis.



Please post some more, but not: people died younger then and they didn't know about cancer. Well, here’s the news .... the oldest living people aren't in the west so there.

Also, lifespans were affected by industralism and science read Simon Kuznets or look up Phossy Jaw !!!! (a condition from working in the match stick industry)




Cheers.

[Odaisé Gaelach]

Okay, what on earth are you on about?

You're talking about aluminum, astrology, TV, hurricanes, reality, the speed of light, Darwin, medicine, computers, Protestants hackin' and slashin', Catholics not so much, science, cancer, and road tolls.

Seriously, does this thread even have a point?

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

He's saying we should trust in science and myth equally. Even though they contradict one another at every turn, and even though myths are bunk.

[Dr Unne]

Never said that. Just that myth was a mode of description. it is our core. myths appear everywhere.

A method of description which gets you nothing. Any more than spraying bullets at a bullseye, drawing a circle around 3 that happen to be close together, and forming a religion out of it gets you anything.

Somebody denying myth is about as good as an evangelist denying natural evolution. We have polarized our knowledge bases.

Scientist: Logical, reproducible, real

Priest: irrational, fictional, myth

Yet, two striking contradictions are ever present: Scientist, inspired inventor and Priest, leader of humanity.

Humanity is real, inspiration is not ... it comes from the mind.

I have no idea what this means. Define "humanity" for starters.

Big assumptions here ... people lived into their 80's in the past. In fact Jeanne Clement smoked and contradicted medicine to live until 122. Your Gaussian rhetoric tries to fit the bell curve on everything. Plain and simple.

I believe I can show that the average human lifespan has been increasing steadily over time, in accordance with medical advances. However you seem not to believe in statistics, so it may be fruitless.

Are you claiming that a single anecdotal case of a person living to 122 years invalidates all of medical science? That is patently absurd. Anecdotal evidence is next to worthless. There are often exceptions to every pattern, but they do not invalidate the millions of counter-examples.

And, astrology is a computer. Your knowledge of Megalithic achievement is lacking. Also see the Aztec predictions of downfall.

I would ask you to enlighten me, but that would imply that I consider that what you're saying has even the slightest chance of being true. Unless you are using "computer" in a metaphorical sense. I know what megaliths were used for in terms of playing with seasonal patterns and star patterns etc. It is so rudimentary compared to a real computer that the analogy is not feasible.

Please also note that there has been no downfall that I am aware of, so any predictions of such are as yet wrong. Unless they predicted their own downfall.

Indeed I am. Most of our drugs are hijacked from native people.

I don't know much about biological science, but I find this to be dubious to say the least.

Anyhow, What about CANCER OOPS. That just collapsed your modern hypothesis.

Again, are you claiming that a single uncured disease invalidates all of medical science? This is not nearly a valid argument. How about the thousands of diseases which we can cure now that we never could before?

And we do have methods of treating and even curing certain types of cancers. Can herbs and astrology do better? To answer myself, no, they can't.

Seriously, does this thread even have a point?

The promotion of mysticism, apparently. It doesn't have a point insofar as mysticism is a bunch of nonsense, almost by definition. Honestly I think responding to this seriously may be giving it more credit than it deserves. But I hate to see this kind of thing spread around unchallenged.

[Besimudo]

Good, Good.

"He's saying we should trust in science and myth equally. Even though they contradict one another at every turn, and even though myths are bunk."

Yep. We had myths to explain the movement of the sun. They are obviously not cosmologically true. However, when a human looks at something we do so in a human reality. Hence, it is symbolic to attach a daimon to this observation. Science is also based on observation, only it makes utility of the cerebral cortex. Hence, scientific truths have less impact than mythical ones. My dilemma is when people attach mythical proportions to science. They deliberately attach emotions to a practice that should not inspire these feelings ... hence, evolution is tricky, like heliocentricity because it removes the diamon from our awareness. This is when we start to abuse our nature because it clearly is not human ... hence void of ethics.

When the last person dies, the universe will cease to exist. This is much like the reality of the falling tree in an unheard forest. Nothing to hear it, therefore their is no noise. The fact that hertz described waves is superficial to the HUMAN EXPERIENCE.

We are dealing with the reptilian brain. Do you believe in God? It makes us feel at odds because or minds were taught myth at childhood. These physiological and tonal differences are the realm of myth.

I asked an atheist is God real? He answered no. That is fine because God is not real. However, on the question of belief, his voice changed, his body squirmed and the reaction as nayooo. Humans have a part of their brain that believes in an ordered universe. It helped us out of the cave, it guides us in court, it even devloped the atomic theory. God is simply a human construct that enables this.


My argument is that we need to reflect on it once in a while, if not, more often. Sure, its not logical, it is not real, but these stories are fascinating. Moreso than the excitation state of a quark or the gluons that induce attraction.


"I don't know much about biological science, but I find this to be dubious to say the least."

Yep. I work at the School of Pharm and applied science ... this is afct we don't want you to know. But ... 75% of all drugs developed come directly from precursor molecules derived from plants. Scientists still go into the forest thieving off natives in hope of a panacea. lol

Benzodiazepines were discovered serendipitously, much like the popular penicillin - gee it's the last time I clean my glassware!

note: we have even removed the magical (luck, inspired) realm from science to make it more business-like.

"The promotion of mysticism, apparently. It doesn't have a point insofar as mysticism is a bunch of nonsense, almost by definition. Honestly I think responding to this seriously may be giving it more credit than it deserves. But I hate to see this kind of thing spread around unchallenged."

Perhaps for a rationalist, but this is much like extolling the chair, whilst denying the floor of a house. You accept the techniques and definitions of your science, but fail to converge the traditions of past. Much like walking the plank of a pirate ship. You might stumble upon new land, but chances are you will end up in the ocean.

[Christmas]

Thank you for reading.

Dun mention it. :bigsmile:

[Avarice-ness]

As for the hurricane comment about the warnings and such.

If you live in ANYWHERE ON A COASTAL LINE, You're warning is when a tropical depression is formed. I lived on the Mexican/Texas coastline for 7 or 8 years and we got hit by many a hurricane that shifted against the prediction, but none of us were surprised. Hurricanes are like tornado, you can't stop where they turn but common sense is, if your in any kind of potential path AKA coastline, you best just get out of the way.

Many people that stayed in Lousiana actually chose to stay there as long as they possibly could, hence the mass chaos right before the literal storm hit. It's much like how the captain wants to go down with the ship, through hell and high water they were staying until the end.
Saddly half of them bailed, caused the roads to clog up and caused mass traffic jams in almost every major city around lousianna. It wasn't a meterological warning they needed, it was a chronological one. They realized they had to go after it was too late.

Just because a hurricane doesn't normally hit that hard in that area doesn't mean it won't. Always be on cover. [/HURRICANEWARNINGRANT]

Oh and..



Big assumptions here ... people lived into their 80's in the past. In fact Jeanne Clement smoked and contradicted medicine to live until 122. Your Gaussian rhetoric tries to fit the bell curve on everything. Plain and simple.



I believe I can show that the average human lifespan has been increasing steadily over time, in accordance with medical advances. However you seem not to believe in statistics, so it may be fruitless.

Unne's right. I actually had an elderly lady come into Macy's one day and told me that she never imagined she would live to be 80 because very people did back when she was a child. Even with out medication, some people, like that 122 year old person for example, just have a better immune system, which would not be affected by smoking or medication-neglection.

[krissy]

Yep. I work at the School of Pharm and applied science ... this is afct we don't want you to know. But ... 75% of all drugs developed come directly from precursor molecules derived from plants. Scientists still go into the forest thieving off natives in hope of a panacea. lol

Benzodiazepines were discovered serendipitously, much like the popular penicillin - gee it's the last time I clean my glassware!

note: we have even removed the magical (luck, inspired) realm from science to make it more business-like.


the re-making old drugs with new names is true.
big pharma makes billions off this. take a drug that works, improve efficiency by 0.3%, market the drug by twisting calculations and pushing it on doctors, and you're in business.

math's pretty important.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

I'd like to see a bit more than random anecdotal evidence in this thread if you expect me to take what you're saying at all seriously. Thus far you've only proven that there are exceptions to the rules on a rare occassion, as well as interesting coincidences on a rare occassion.

On a rare occassion being the emphasis here.

You've proven nothing we don't already know.

[Tasura]

Honestly I only read this thread for Unne's replies, otherwise it isn't worth my time.

And on that note, I agree with Unne.

Edit: I read a bit of his nonsensical ramblings, only around the "bell-curve" part though, you're accusing Unne of only looking at what fits the curve, yet you're only looking at what doesnt fit it.

[YTDN]

...reality has a way of being real whether you care about it or not.

This goes straight into my sig.

Also, Besimudo, I still don't get what the hell you're talking about.

[Ryushikaze]

Besi, when you can show me an example of something non cultural that mysticism does better than reasoned examination, then we'll talk. Until then, all you've got under your belt is anecdotal evidence and some confusion between nomy and logy. It might help to ditch the overblown rhetoric and try and prove with adequate evidence the things you are trying to claim are so.

[Dr Unne]

Hence, scientific truths have less impact than mythical ones. My dilemma is when people attach mythical proportions to science. They deliberately attach emotions to a practice that should not inspire these feelings ... hence, evolution is tricky, like heliocentricity because it removes the diamon from our awareness.

Who are you to say what shouldn't have emotional value to people? I find the truth (meaning scientific truth) to be much more "emotionally valuable" than a pretty fairy tale; not in a mythical sense, but in a sense of wonder and appreciation and excitement all the same. And it's not only emotionally valuable, but provably, demonstrably practically useful as well. Best of both worlds.

Removing the demons from our awareness is one of the best things that ever happened to mankind. Because demons do not exist. You sound as though you value ignorance, so long as it's nice, pretty ignorance.

My argument is that we need to reflect on it once in a while, if not, more often. Sure, its not logical, it is not real, but these stories are fascinating. Moreso than the excitation state of a quark or the gluons that induce attraction.

I enjoy a good myth. Mostly as entertainment. We can learn things from myths. Things about the human beings who wrote them. They are fascinating at times, yes.

Using myths to understand the universe is different though. It's silly and wrong. Wrong meaning inaccurate. It leads to false conclusions.

Yep. I work at the School of Pharm and applied science ... this is afct we don't want you to know. But ... 75% of all drugs developed come directly from precursor molecules derived from plants. Scientists still go into the forest thieving off natives in hope of a panacea. lol

"Derived from plants" and "thieved from natives" are not nearly equivalent. Please substantiate this claim.

[escobert]

I read three lines and got a brain cramp. ouch.

[Besimudo]

"Who are you to say what shouldn't have emotional value to people? I find the truth (meaning scientific truth) to be much more "emotionally valuable" than a pretty fairy tale; not in a mythical sense, but in a sense of wonder and appreciation and excitement all the same. And it's not only emotionally valuable, but provably, demonstrably practically useful as well. Best of both worlds."

As stated, Science relies on the cerebral cortex ... i.e. the thinking part of your brain.

A myth targets the reptilian brain ... Or in other words your guts.

When we hear a myth it strikes some paradoxical truth that we cannot digest with our rational mind but goes deep into the subconscious.



The point of my lecture is just that: But before I can give you more than exciting tales, we need to wake up our guts and reconsider what we take to be true.

I am the first person to defend science ... especially against its dissenters from evangelical walks of life. But, I also seek to breath some fresh ideas into the lives of what can be termed pure Baconian reasoning. Or ... the Cartesian mentality.


Many Scientists need to learn respect for our traditions rather than simply dismissing them as precision/accuracy models from a chemistry text book ... hey Dr. Unne - we have all seen that in just about any first year text.



To reiterate ... Myths do not care about whether the sun is a Hydrogen reaction - they seek to inspire the awe of Helios and describe the human condition:

The palace of the Sun was always bright and radiant, sparkling with jewels. One day a young man named Phaeton set out to reach the palace, and after a long hot journey he found himself before Apollo, the Sun god. Shielding his eyes from Apollo's brilliant rays, the youth asked, "Is it true that, although my mother is a mortal, you are indeed my father? She said this is so, but when I tell my friends that you are my father, they laugh and make fun of me." The Sun god smiled brightly and nodded. "Yes, Phaeton, you are my son, and I am pleased that you have come to visit. Ask me anything, and I promise it shall be yours."

Phaeton was very proud to learn he was truly the son of a god, and he knew right away what he wanted. "Father, let me take your place for one day. I want to command your chariot and pull the sun across the sky, as you do each day. When my friends see me high above them, they will know what I told them is true."

We know that the sun is not really about this, but in as much as humans are concerned a moral lesson is evident.




Also, if you are still confused about pharma companies, look up the meth drug trade in the 90's. It crippled America ... all thanks to profit.

Today we face MDMA, but alas, the medical profession will find more work from this paradox also. It is cyclical.

Basically, we have moved from the shaman (who cares about our welfare) to the seedy drug dealer, who cares only for profit. Look at all the children on drugs, and then we might even discuss the high rate of suicide .. thanks again to industrialism and pharmaceuticals.

Also, if you factor in indigenous people, suicide, depression, car accidents, the life expectancy for the west is not that great.

They twisted unemployment by changing the definition from unemployed to student; the government is also selective in its statistic for old age and death.


Note: Myths don't care about physical pragmatism. They strike a core that dates back to the phoenix rising from the ashes of mass extinction 65 million years ago. Right up to the modern day Cyclops which so many young people (including myself) stare at in our urban cave dwellings - a skewed reality at best is all we see with one eye - I am talking about television and monitors of course.

And, hence mythology is a respectable study. Even Einstein had a personal astrologer.

Also, not everything falls into the scientific method. Not every phenomenon can be addressed by science. The fact that the scientific method does not permit the investigation of abstract mathematical principles is especially embarrassing in light of one of its more crucial steps: “invent a theory to fit the observations.” A theory happens to be a logical and/or mathematical construct whose basic elements of description are mathematical units and relationships. If the scientific method were interpreted as a blanket description of reality, which is all too often the case, the result would go something like this: “Reality consists of all and only that to which we can apply a protocol which cannot be applied to its own (mathematical) ingredients and is therefore unreal.” Mandating the use of “unreality” to describe “reality” is rather questionable in anyone’s protocol.

We could also go into tautological constructs i.e. 1 + 1 = 2 … But this is probably better served in another thread.


Thank you.

[Tavrobel]

Good God, man, use the Quote function. It's in the bottom right corner of each post.

Or you do it manually...


STUFF

Reading stuff in quotation marks gets really annoying.

[krissy]

Reading stuff in quotation marks gets really annoying.

you must hate novels

[DarkLadyNyara]

Reading stuff in quotation marks gets really annoying.

you must hate novels

Entirely different situation. :rolleyes2 I don't like reading stuff in quotation marks on a forum either. It's a pain.

As for the rest of the stuff, I'm with Unne. :D

[Firo Volondé]

Could someone please explain the point of this thread? Preferably in a catchy song or jingle.

[Ryushikaze]

Besi, amidst all of his style over substance, is claiming that myths are more worthwhile than they actually are. He's made a number of claims, and failed to substantiate any of them as of yet. His purpose is being muddled by the above mentioned style over substance fallacy and his love for hifalutin rhetoric over actual addressing of points.

[Avarice-ness]

Besi, amidst all of his style over substance, is claiming that myths are more worthwhile than they actually are. He's made a number of claims, and failed to substantiate any of them as of yet. His purpose is being muddled by the above mentioned style over substance fallacy and his love for hifalutin rhetoric over actual addressing of points.

AKA Besi is trying to sound obscenely smart by using many claims that have no supporting facts. Fact being -proven- 100% correct. :)

[Tavrobel]

Reading stuff in quotation marks gets really annoying.

you must hate novels

I do, indeed. I prefer epics and poetry.

[nik0tine]

Did you know that the jig is a type musical dance? Of course you did.

[Renmiri]

Not all science discounts myth and philosophy. I had Epistemology on my undergrad Astronomy college. It was mandatory. A very fun class.


Epistemology is the branch of philosophy that studies knowledge. It attempts to answer the basic question: what distinguishes true (adequate) knowledge from false (inadequate) knowledge? Practically, this questions translates into issues of scientific methodology: how can one develop theories or models that are better than competing theories? It also forms one of the pillars of the new sciences of cognition, which developed from the information processing approach to psychology, and from artificial intelligence, as an attempt to develop computer programs that mimic a human's capacity to use knowledge in an intelligent way.

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/EPISTEMI.html

Astrology is not possibly real. For starters, the time of birth, measured up to the minute by astrologers is a false measure: There isn't an exact time of birth. My kids took between 9 and 24 hours to be born. What is the proper time to consider ? The time the kid's head shows up ? The time the contractions start ? The time the kid is entirely out ? What about C-Sections ? The time that goes on the birth certificate is somewhere between 2 hours from the time the kid's head just gets visible and the time the kid is taken to the infirmary.

Then the planets movement: It is not real also. Astrologers still use a 2 dimensional vision of space that was gathered by telescopes centuries ago. It is highly flawed. There is no "retrogate" movement, planets don't move backwards. What astrologers saw was the planet's orbit in relation to earth giving the impression of a backwards movement. Don't get me started on Pluto, our recently dethroned runt planet.... There jupiter moons more significant than that.

But yet, astrology works, or seems to. So what gives ?

What Besi said is the reason: Astrology uses myths and archetypes that we all have manifested in our lives, so eventually you will see the characteristics of your "sun sign" on your life. And if you don't, there's always the retrogate planet, moon sign, conjunction, opposition or whatever that modifies your "Astral Chart" just enough to find a myth that fits you. A self fulfilling prophecy.

In that case I prefer Tarot. The myths and archetypes are still there, but there's no pseudo-science trying to justify how they apply to you or your problems. You and the Tarot caster have to work that out by yourselves, using reason, intuition and spirituality. And that makes you reflect on your problems , life and actions, which can only lead to good things IMHO.

PS: As for two people researching Aluminum being born on the same year, that is trivial: A lot of researchers go for a "hot" subject every year, a lot of them are in the same age group, i.e. born within a couple of years of each other and some of those will get a good invention or a successful paper. The odds of it happening to two scientists born on the same year for ANY hot science topic are actually high, not low.

Example: Einstein had to rush his relativity work because one of his rivals was about to publish it first, after Einstein had naively shown him a draft. They were from the same age group. Had Einstein stopped there, maybe we would be discussing two scientist born "on the same period" who discovered the revolutionary concept of relativity. But Einstein went on to awe the world with his later work so the other guy got lost in the sands of time. IIRC the same thing happened with the phone. Parallel discoveries are actually not that rare in science. It's the nature of the beast, with all the peer review and building on each other's work that happens.

[Ryushikaze]

I don't think anyone is saying myth is Useless- I certainly am not- but it is really only important in a historical or sociological context (such as your above example), not because it touches us at some deep core of our being (certainly doesn't to me, any more so than Star Wars does... less, actually), but because it gives us a clue as to how the people of the past thought the universe worked, and other similar insights.

[Besimudo]

Star wars is a typical Hero Myth.

Anyhow, I was hoping to share some interesting analysis of the world ... both poetic and insightful, but alas, no one can escape the rational mind.


Consider the fennel that grows along the train track. This is a reference to the gift of fire bestowed by Prometheus which burns brightly in the middle of the train. :)

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Replys:

Oh that is garbage, what about electric trains Besimudo is a dim wit.



That is scientifically incorrect.



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Maybe the whole point of astrology, poetry, myth and legend is to make man the measure of all things.


Why not say that those stars look like a scorpion, or that man is a hero, or even speak of gods and ghosts. These topics are interesting because they make the natural world seem human. In the same way that physical constants resemble mathematical formulae, humans use a system to describe reality.

As stated. Nobody here has refuted Medea - the woman who killed here children. Or the man who walked with Bears and then was eaten only when he bought his girlfriend along (see Enkindu the animal man from Gilgamesh) These, like the fennel are all related to myth. Myths are exciting and the describe the world in its most primal way. Mythology is the knowledge that makes your heart beat, our guts churn and the hairs on our backs stand whenever we hear a story.


Cheers.:)






P.S. Good reply Renmiri, but try talking astronomy to anyone without mentioning Orion. The bright star Betelguise would not be the same. As stated, the fennel seeds are in the fire ... that first fire brought down to earth by prometheus in the fennel stalk.

[Renmiri]

There's a reason Orion's Belt is visible from both hemispheres and is one of the most widely recognizable star constellations ever.... ;)

(The three little stars in a straight line we see almost on every clear night for those not versed in star constellation names)

[Besimudo]

And what chases Orion across the night sky?

All of this relates back to the time when Orion stood on the Scorpion. When the Scorpion rises in the west, Orion cannot be seen in the east.

Mankind is weak compared to the will of nature, the heavens tell us this. Will as we may to tamper with genes, play eugenics and genocide, send out space junk, or blow each other up with misappropriated relativity theory (re: Nagasaki) the gods in the sky must find our earthly obsessions hilarious.

Scientific claims have been used to justify all of the above (except the gods in the sky).

And that dark god Hades who rules gold (money) is slowly making his claim in the world. Especially with all the casinos, banks, and fortunes.

:)

[DarkLadyNyara]

Scientific claims have been used to justify all of the above
So has religion, and for far longer. Nice try at demonization, though.

[Besimudo]

Hmm... Ctrl + C ... Ctrl + V:p

DarkLady?


Cheers