scary retouching

[Xander]

Thought I'd share some links I found to do with retouching for magazines and stuff..similar to the Dove campaign for real beauty thing if you saw that on You Tube.

http://demo.fb.se/e/girlpower/retouch/retouch/index.html

This one just shows step by step the bits they retouch and then a before and after thing.

http://glennferon.com/portfolio1/index.html

http://www.fluideffect.com/

These two are portfolios showing retouched photos with before and after, people like Halle Berry, Destiny's Child, Usher in there too and also a section showing the photos actually used on magazines.

I always knew they did a little but not this much. Some of those photos are scary. Though I guess it makes sense to make it look as good as possible for magazines. But it's sad if it makes anyone think they should look like that =/ Most of the latter of these are pretty scary looking anyway, the women look like rubber :p

I thought it was kinda interesting to play around with anyway! Behold the power of photoshop...

[Araciel]

i gotta get someone to touch me up :P

[Dr Aum]

I'm very impressed.

And that isn't sarcasm, for once.

[Nominus Experse]

It's known, of course, but until you actually see it, its intensity isn't really taken to heart.

[Rye]

Yeah, I saw the Dove commercial which was pretty scary, even when you do know how much companies photoshop people, because you see it for yourself, as Nomunius Experse put it. But the celebrity before and after... it certainly did make me feel better. xD

This reminds me of someone who goes to my school. She's a fashion model, because she's 5'9" and extremely skinny. She's has a nasty attitude, and really is not pretty, in my opinion, but she's rather condescending to me, because even though she considers me her friend, she constantly likes to subtly call me fat and say how no one finds people like me beautiful because I'm a size 8 and 5'0" and she's a size 4 and so model tall. She always likes to go on about how anyone over a size 5 or 6 is so fat and such. It used to really bother me, but it just amuses me now, because I've seen her model photos and photoshop completely makes over her face and body. She needs all that to feel beautiful, and she needs to constantly tell everyone she's a model to feel beautiful, when there are so many people who she'd consider fat and ugly who don't need that to be beautiful, because they naturally are beautiful. Not fake super skinny super soft beautiful, but really beautiful.

Photoshop is quite a tool.

[Anaisa]

An even after removing the retouching they'll still be lit well in the picture an they've had their make-up done by a professional etc. So they'll look a lot rougher in real life than they do even after the retouching has been removed. I don't know why people are so against retouching when it's not being used to sell anything though. The only time I think it's a bad thing is when it's an advertisement for something, an they give a false impression of what the product does. An I'm not fond of Doves campaign for what they consider to be real beauty. Real beauty does not mean not exercising, an being flabby an untoned. Promoting flabbage is no better than promoting skinnyness. Judging by the women in doves campaign,real beauty means being outfit, untoned, having saggy breasts, great big wobbly thighs, a big wide stomach an waistline, an being flabby all over. That's real beauty?! As opposed to what, the She-devil?

[Zeldy]

Yeah, I saw the Dove commercial which was pretty scary, even when you do know how much companies photoshop people, because you see it for yourself, as Nomunius Experse put it. But the celebrity before and after... it certainly did make me feel better. xD

This reminds me of someone who goes to my school. She's a fashion model, because she's 5'9" and extremely skinny. She's has a nasty attitude, and really is not pretty, in my opinion, but she's rather condescending to me, because even though she considers me her friend, she constantly likes to subtly call me fat and say how no one finds people like me beautiful because I'm a size 8 and 5'0" and she's a size 4 and so model tall. She always likes to go on about how anyone over a size 5 or 6 is so fat and such. It used to really bother me, but it just amuses me now, because I've seen her model photos and photoshop completely makes over her face and body. She needs all that to feel beautiful, and she needs to constantly tell everyone she's a model to feel beautiful, when there are so many people who she'd consider fat and ugly who don't need that to be beautiful, because they naturally are beautiful. Not fake super skinny super soft beautiful, but really beautiful.

Photoshop is quite a tool.

Okay, Rye, for starters, a Size 8 is not fat. If 8 is fat, then Im obese as Im 8/10.

It is nice to see that celebritys have some imperfections.

[LoveArya]

Yeah, I saw the Dove commercial which was pretty scary, even when you do know how much companies photoshop people, because you see it for yourself, as Nomunius Experse put it. But the celebrity before and after... it certainly did make me feel better. xD

This reminds me of someone who goes to my school. She's a fashion model, because she's 5'9" and extremely skinny. She's has a nasty attitude, and really is not pretty, in my opinion, but she's rather condescending to me, because even though she considers me her friend, she constantly likes to subtly call me fat and say how no one finds people like me beautiful because I'm a size 8 and 5'0" and she's a size 4 and so model tall. She always likes to go on about how anyone over a size 5 or 6 is so fat and such. It used to really bother me, but it just amuses me now, because I've seen her model photos and photoshop completely makes over her face and body. She needs all that to feel beautiful, and she needs to constantly tell everyone she's a model to feel beautiful, when there are so many people who she'd consider fat and ugly who don't need that to be beautiful, because they naturally are beautiful. Not fake super skinny super soft beautiful, but really beautiful.

Photoshop is quite a tool.

Thats why you sneak her fat bars that make you gain weight, just say that they make you contain your figure and then she cant fit in her pants anymore :evil:

[Rye]

Yeah, I saw the Dove commercial which was pretty scary, even when you do know how much companies photoshop people, because you see it for yourself, as Nomunius Experse put it. But the celebrity before and after... it certainly did make me feel better. xD

This reminds me of someone who goes to my school. She's a fashion model, because she's 5'9" and extremely skinny. She's has a nasty attitude, and really is not pretty, in my opinion, but she's rather condescending to me, because even though she considers me her friend, she constantly likes to subtly call me fat and say how no one finds people like me beautiful because I'm a size 8 and 5'0" and she's a size 4 and so model tall. She always likes to go on about how anyone over a size 5 or 6 is so fat and such. It used to really bother me, but it just amuses me now, because I've seen her model photos and photoshop completely makes over her face and body. She needs all that to feel beautiful, and she needs to constantly tell everyone she's a model to feel beautiful, when there are so many people who she'd consider fat and ugly who don't need that to be beautiful, because they naturally are beautiful. Not fake super skinny super soft beautiful, but really beautiful.

Photoshop is quite a tool.

Okay, Rye, for starters, a Size 8 is not fat. If 8 is fat, then Im obese as Im 8/10.

It is nice to see that celebritys have some imperfections.

That's what I said to her. I'm don't love how I look, but I don't think that being a size 8 makes me really fat. Though a size 8 in the US is a size 12 in the UK, if you go by womens sizes. I wear juniors though because I'm short and I need shorter pants, so I don't know my size in womens. :p

And haha, wasn't that in Mean Girls or something, LoveArya? xD

[abrojtm]

I need one of those with a scalpal.

[LoveArya]

Yeah, I saw the Dove commercial which was pretty scary, even when you do know how much companies photoshop people, because you see it for yourself, as Nomunius Experse put it. But the celebrity before and after... it certainly did make me feel better. xD

This reminds me of someone who goes to my school. She's a fashion model, because she's 5'9" and extremely skinny. She's has a nasty attitude, and really is not pretty, in my opinion, but she's rather condescending to me, because even though she considers me her friend, she constantly likes to subtly call me fat and say how no one finds people like me beautiful because I'm a size 8 and 5'0" and she's a size 4 and so model tall. She always likes to go on about how anyone over a size 5 or 6 is so fat and such. It used to really bother me, but it just amuses me now, because I've seen her model photos and photoshop completely makes over her face and body. She needs all that to feel beautiful, and she needs to constantly tell everyone she's a model to feel beautiful, when there are so many people who she'd consider fat and ugly who don't need that to be beautiful, because they naturally are beautiful. Not fake super skinny super soft beautiful, but really beautiful.

Photoshop is quite a tool.

Okay, Rye, for starters, a Size 8 is not fat. If 8 is fat, then Im obese as Im 8/10.

It is nice to see that celebritys have some imperfections.

That's what I said to her. I'm don't love how I look, but I don't think that being a size 8 makes me really fat. :p

And haha, wasn't that in Mean Girls or something, LoveArya? xD

lol yes.
A size 8 isnt fat, so just ignore her. Shes ugly anyway:D

[Xander]

I don't think retouching is a bad thing, in terms of making images look nice it's important I think, and they need to do this stuff for magazines. It's just a shame if people think it's all real and get worried about it. I mean, I don't really because I reckon with all the treatment those people get (including makeup artists etc), I'd easily be ultra hot. XDD But it is nice to see those people looking more "normal".

Also with the Dove thing, I don't think they're saying, oh real beauty is flabby and stuff. They are just using a bit of an extreme to show the point. I mean in the advert I saw, the women looked fairly normal, not too flabby... but it does make me feel better to see stuff like that being recognised, all the same. Either way it doesn't matter, everyone can be beautiful :D

[LoveArya]

I don't think retouching is a bad thing, in terms of making images look nice it's important I think, and they need to do this stuff for magazines. It's just a shame if people think it's all real and get worried about it. I mean, I don't really because I reckon with all the treatment those people get (including makeup artists etc), I'd easily be ultra hot. XDD But it is nice to see those people looking more "normal".

Also with the Dove thing, I don't think they're saying, oh real beauty is flabby and stuff. They are just using a bit of an extreme to show the point. I mean in the advert I saw, the women looked fairly normal, not too flabby... but it does make me feel better to see stuff like that being recognised, all the same. Either way it doesn't matter, everyone can be beautiful :D
:thumb:

[Rye]

Also with the Dove thing, I don't think they're saying, oh real beauty is flabby and stuff. They are just using a bit of an extreme to show the point. I mean in the advert I saw, the women looked fairly normal, not too flabby... but it does make me feel better to see stuff like that being recognised, all the same. Either way it doesn't matter, everyone can be beautiful :D

Exactly. In the commercials I've seen, I didn't see anyone who I'd consider too flabby either. I guess it depends on one's standards, but I thought the women were all quite beautiful and more importantly, happy. :)

[Anaisa]

These are women from the dove campaign: http://creativeskirts.typepad.com/creative_skirts/images/dove1.png
http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/30sideswipe.JPG
Surely you agree those women are flabbergasters? An when Dove do things like this:
http://www.epica-awards.org/assets/epica/2005/winners/print/images800/16059%20%20%20DOVE%20Wrinkled%20Wonderful.jpg I don't know how they expect us to take their campaign seriously. OLD be beautiful. OLD! She looks like one of the living dead!

[LoveArya]

These are women from the dove campaign: http://creativeskirts.typepad.com/creative_skirts/images/dove1.png
http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/30sideswipe.JPG
Surely you agree those women are flabbergasters? An when Dove do things like this:
http://www.epica-awards.org/assets/epica/2005/winners/print/images800/16059%20%20%20DOVE%20Wrinkled%20Wonderful.jpg I don't know how they expect us to take their campaign seriously. OLD be beautiful. OLD! She looks like one of the living dead!
They can shove it with a stick and we can be ourselves:)

[Moon Rabbits]

Yeah, I saw the Dove commercial which was pretty scary, even when you do know how much companies photoshop people, because you see it for yourself, as Nomunius Experse put it. But the celebrity before and after... it certainly did make me feel better. xD

This reminds me of someone who goes to my school. She's a fashion model, because she's 5'9" and extremely skinny. She's has a nasty attitude, and really is not pretty, in my opinion, but she's rather condescending to me, because even though she considers me her friend, she constantly likes to subtly call me fat and say how no one finds people like me beautiful because I'm a size 8 and 5'0" and she's a size 4 and so model tall. She always likes to go on about how anyone over a size 5 or 6 is so fat and such. It used to really bother me, but it just amuses me now, because I've seen her model photos and photoshop completely makes over her face and body. She needs all that to feel beautiful, and she needs to constantly tell everyone she's a model to feel beautiful, when there are so many people who she'd consider fat and ugly who don't need that to be beautiful, because they naturally are beautiful. Not fake super skinny super soft beautiful, but really beautiful.

Photoshop is quite a tool.

My self-conscious sense is tingling.

[Megami]

Not only retouching, we are forgetting all the make up work too :)

As someone said, the bad thing about it is people "thinking" it's real and fighting for a beauty pattern that doesn't "exist". (crazy diets, etc)
It's good to feel good with ourselves but..
Nobody is perfect.

Actually some of the pictures in the portfolios before the retouching were good. The retouching only makes it looks "not real".

[DarkLadyNyara]

*is squicked*

I understand that magazines and the like are in the buisness of selling, and that the pictures are unrealistic, but I had no idea just how far they went. O_o

[Jojee]

*is sad about this*

Nooooooo everything I believed in, allllll liiiiiiiiieees......


;_;

...

Okay. It seriously does make me sad though, I'm not sure why. Some of those people are really wrinkly and saggy before the retouches =\ What's the point of retouching it that much? They'll know it's been retouched <i>a lot</i> and that they really look nowhere like that in real life, so does it really make them feel better about themselves and give them a false sense of security? I can see the point in wearing some makeup and retouching to hide blemishes and such, but to the point where you don't look like yourself anymore and you never will actually look like that, what's the point..?

Also it's sad that people hold higher standards to themselves and others in real life because of those retouched people. :3

[Xander]

These are women from the dove campaign: http://creativeskirts.typepad.com/creative_skirts/images/dove1.png
http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/30sideswipe.JPG
Surely you agree those women are flabbergasters? An when Dove do things like this:
http://www.epica-awards.org/assets/epica/2005/winners/print/images800/16059%20%20%20DOVE%20Wrinkled%20Wonderful.jpg I don't know how they expect us to take their campaign seriously. OLD be beautiful. OLD! She looks like one of the living dead!

I can't really see what's wrong with those people >_> "flabbergasters"? Have you seen obese people? I don't think they even look particularly big. And the old one? So what? So old people can't be beautiful? I think it's actually nicer when old people grow old gracefully and not try and look young. Being comfortable and happy in your skin is more what beauty's about. Those models are showing they look happy and comfortable whilst not like supermodels. I like their campaign. I'm sure they have nothing against skinny people either, it's just well using them isn't gonna show the point because MOST people worry about not being skinny enough. I think this campaign is a good thing.

[Breine]

I knew that they retouched pictures and such quite a bit, and sometimes it is very obvious on some magazine covers and such... sometimes they just make the ladies look like dolls or something extremely rubber-y.

Out of those you posted, Xander, the Cosmopolitan cover was the most shocking. The final cover didn't even look like the girl they took a picture of in the first place.
In the second link some of the cases were not that extreme, though. Especially Halle Berry and Beyonce had not been retouched that much, but what I thought was interesting was the fact that some of the before pictures actually looked better than the after ones. I noticed the ones of Alicia Keys in particular - she just looked fake in the after shots and pretty unrecognizable in my opinion.

It was nice to see that celebrities are more human and actually have some flaws. However, they are still basically attractive people.

[Rye]

These are women from the dove campaign: http://creativeskirts.typepad.com/creative_skirts/images/dove1.png
http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/30sideswipe.JPG
Surely you agree those women are flabbergasters? An when Dove do things like this:
http://www.epica-awards.org/assets/epica/2005/winners/print/images800/16059%20%20%20DOVE%20Wrinkled%20Wonderful.jpg I don't know how they expect us to take their campaign seriously. OLD be beautiful. OLD! She looks like one of the living dead!

I can't really see what's wrong with those people >_> "flabbergasters"? Have you seen obese people? I don't think they even look particularly big. And the old one? So what? So old people can't be beautiful? I think it's actually nicer when old people grow old gracefully and not try and look young. Being comfortable and happy in your skin is more what beauty's about. Those models are showing they look happy and comfortable whilst not like supermodels. I like their campaign. I'm sure they have nothing against skinny people either, it's just well using them isn't gonna show the point because MOST people worry about not being skinny enough. I think this campaign is a good thing.

Yeah, those girls aren't skinny, but they look healthy and pretty, not obese. That's what the campaign is about.

[Megami]

but what I thought was interesting was the fact that some of the before pictures actually looked better than the after ones.

That was exactly the same thought I had :D

[Anaisa]

I can't really see what's wrong with those people >_> "flabbergasters"? Have you seen obese people? I don't think they even look particularly big.I have seen obese people. Both those women are overweight though. An one of the points Dove made is about the promotion of underweight women in the media because it's unhealthy. Being overweight is no better than being underweight. An the woman in the first picture is clearly breathing in. If she's not worried about her size, why would she be doing that? It also says: "As tested on real curves". An hourglass figure is a curvy figure. Her figure is not curvy. The only defined curves are the ones she has at the side of her stomach, an that is due to breathing in.
And the old one? So what? So old people can't be beautiful? I think it's actually nicer when old people grow old gracefully and not try and look young. Being comfortable and happy in your skin is more what beauty's about.In my opinion the old woman is hideous. If she is beautiful, who isn't? An if we're to say all people are beautiful, then the word loses all meaning. Beauty is of course a matter of opinion, but everyone can not all be equally physically attractive. Some look better than others. So they can't all be beautiful. There is a standard for beauty, just like there is a standard for intelligence for example. We're not all geniuses, an we're not all beautiful.
I'm sure they have nothing against skinny people either, it's just well using them isn't gonna show the point because MOST people worry about not being skinny enough. I think this campaign is a good thing.
Yeah, those girls aren't skinny, but they look healthy and pretty, not obese. That's what the campaign is about.They're not obese, but they are overweight. An even the women I've seen dove use in their commercials that aren't overweight, don't have nice figures. If they want to encourage women to be a healthy weight, they need to show women who are a healthy weight, an make them look attractive. I can't see many women looking at them, an aspiring to look like that.

[Madame Adequate]

There is a standard for beauty, just like there is a standard for intelligence for example. We're not all geniuses, an we're not all beautiful.

Except that the standard for beauty is a hell of a lot more subjective than that for intelligence. My god, you must have a sad life, looking at all the REAL people you see every day and seeing nothing but disgusting malformed freaks.

As for me, I say just, whatever. If someone is retouched, fine. If someone's overweight or obese, fine. If someone's skinny, fine. As long as THEY'RE happy, I'm quite happy to mind my own business.

[Moon Rabbits]

These are women from the dove campaign: http://creativeskirts.typepad.com/creative_skirts/images/dove1.png
http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/30sideswipe.JPG
Surely you agree those women are flabbergasters? An when Dove do things like this:
http://www.epica-awards.org/assets/epica/2005/winners/print/images800/16059%20%20%20DOVE%20Wrinkled%20Wonderful.jpg I don't know how they expect us to take their campaign seriously. OLD be beautiful. OLD! She looks like one of the living dead!

First Picture: This woman isn't even FAT. What's wrong with this picture? You confuse me.

Second Picture; Hey, I think it's great that she can wear her underwear in a picture like that. I'd like to see you do this :D, I know I couldn't and I'm not even overweight.

Third Picture: What? I agree with Xander on this one.

[Xander]

If she is beautiful, who isn't? An if we're to say all people are beautiful, then the word loses all meaning. Beauty is of course a matter of opinion, but everyone can not all be equally physically attractive. Some look better than others. So they can't all be beautiful. There is a standard for beauty, just like there is a standard for intelligence for example. We're not all geniuses, an we're not all beautiful.

We obviously just have a different opinion on what the word beauty means then (which I guess is fine, no one person can say what it is by fact anyway).

But I don't agree with your "some look better than others". What is "better"? So you have yourself some set standard for beauty, doesn't mean it's the same for others. Women who may pass this "beauty" thing, who may not be TOO overweight, or not have cellulite or flab or whatever you say, why does that make them beautiful? I know a lot of people who wouldn't find those "perfect" looking people attractive, and actually more guys who prefer some curves.

And yes, personally I think all people are beautiful, because I think life is a beautiful thing and if you have a good soul that makes you beautiful. I don't think a perfect figure makes you instantly beautiful.

And yeah if you think beautiful is some perfect in between then, you can't see too many beautiful people from day to day >_>

They're not telling women to aspire to be just like that. They're showing slightly bigger people looking happy, to show you should be happy if you are like that, or in between or even not. Actually if you saw some of the other adverts Dove did, they used very skinny people, and other factors to basically say, hey you're beautiful whatever you're like, you just have to be happy with your body and feel it.

Saying old people are hideous is just... well.. good luck getting old. xD

[Madonna]

Hey, less about how we judge beauty and more about how we like to decieve ourselves and others on how we look. :|

I think a lot of those jobs are really well done, which is a good thing, considering, what, two of the linked sites are offering services.

[LunarWeaver]

Good grief, some of these are really redone. I think they look fine before the retouching =/

And people tell me I'm weird for saying game characters are attractive because they aren't real. Doesn't look like magazine pictures are too real either to me.

[Anaisa]

Except that the standard for beauty is a hell of a lot more subjective than that for intelligence. My god, you must have a sad life, looking at all the REAL people you see every day and seeing nothing but disgusting malformed freaks.I don't have a problem with my perspective. I'd prefer to see humans for what they are, than believe their wonderful just because I am one. Although the opinion of what's beautiful is more subjective, an people are free to describe who they want as beautiful, that doesn't mean everyone IS beautiful. The opinion amongst people doesn't even vary enough for there to be no standard.

Second Picture; Hey, I think it's great that she can wear her underwear in a picture like that. I'd like to see you do this , I know I couldn't and I'm not even overweight.I'm a classy lady, I'm not going to post pictures of myself in my underwear on the internet!


Third Picture: What? I agree with Xander on this one. She's old an wrinkly! I can't believe any of you think that woman is beautiful.

We obviously just have a different opinion on what the word beauty means then (which I guess is fine, no one person can say what it is by fact anyway).
But I don't agree with your "some look better than others". What is "better"? So you have yourself some set standard for beauty, doesn't mean it's the same for others. Women who may pass this "beauty" thing, who may not be TOO overweight, or not have cellulite or flab or whatever you say, why does that make them beautiful? I know a lot of people who wouldn't find those "perfect" looking people attractive, and actually more guys who prefer some curves. I wasn't talking about my standards. I was talking about the general opinion. An I don't think curvy figures are unattractive, I think overweight figures are unattractive. An I assume when most men say they prefer curvy women, they mean they prefer an hourglass type figure, not an overweight woman.

And yes, personally I think all people are beautiful, because I think life is a beautiful thing and if you have a good soul that makes you beautiful. I don't think a perfect figure makes you instantly beautiful.I don't think having a perfect figure alone makes someone beautiful either. An although I do think the nicer someone is as a person the more physically attractive they appear, an vice versa. Not knowing somebody an just looking at a picture of them, you can't actually tell what they're like as a person, so surely you wouldn't just assume they were good people, an think they were beautiful based on that?

And yeah if you think beautiful is some perfect in between then, you can't see too many beautiful people from day to day >_>Well I don't find many people beautiful.

Saying old people are hideous is just... well.. good luck getting old. xD My parents are 43, an people still guess they're in their twentys, so I've got good genes for looking youthful. I don't want to be old anyway though, so I don't have to worry about that.

[Megami]

She's old an wrinkly! I can't believe any of you think that woman is beautiful.



I don't want to be old anyway though, so I don't have to worry about that.

Bad news lady, you are going to be old one day.

The beauty you "believe" is the beauty that media and society teach us, how can that be a "general" view of beauty, when it's obvious that each one has their own standards?

What I am going to say is far from original but the true beauty lies within your actions and attitudes, some people may not impress you at first sight but you can notice later how beautiful they are.

Physical beauty and youthness will be lost through years, your intelligence, perception and personality not.

[Jojee]

I agree with Anaisa that in the second picture ( http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/30sideswipe.JPG ), the woman looks like her weight could be fairly unhealthy for her. I think it's great that Dove wants to campaign that you should be happy with who you are :) For people who are overweight, I'm happy for them if they feel good about themselves, but it shouldn't be advocated in the sense that very overweight and obese people shouldn't be concerned about losing weight at all, because that's simply unhealthy.

[Madame Adequate]

It's pretty hard to judge how healthy someone is by their appearance, unless it's really profound. I know big girls who are far healthier than I am, and whilst I used to think I was underweight, the way most people are today (Like Jojo and Anaisa) I'm probably larger than I should be - you can only see my ribs when I'm stretching. :rolleyes2

Whilst weight can cause health problems, I think we need to get away from this notion that weight = health problems. I can't even begin to imagine how the woman in that second picture might be too big to be healthy, she looks fine to me.


I don't have a problem with my perspective. I'd prefer to see humans for what they are, than believe their wonderful just because I am one. Although the opinion of what's beautiful is more subjective, an people are free to describe who they want as beautiful, that doesn't mean everyone IS beautiful. The opinion amongst people doesn't even vary enough for there to be no standard.

Uh, what? "Beauty is subjective, but that doesn't mean it's subjective!" And a large number of believers doesn't make something true. There is no standard for beauty except what you [general you] think is beautiful. Case in point: One of the most beautiful girls I've ever seen had clearly suffered severe burns to her face when she was younger. I thought she was absolutely gorgeous.

[Jojee]

It's pretty hard to judge how healthy someone is by their appearance, unless it's really profound. I know big girls who are far healthier than I am, and whilst I used to think I was underweight, the way most people are today (Like Jojo and Anaisa) I'm probably larger than I should be - you can only see my ribs when I'm stretching. :rolleyes2 I'm disappointed and rather hurt that you would take digs at my appearance when I'm trying to civily state what I think.

[Madame Adequate]

It's pretty hard to judge how healthy someone is by their appearance, unless it's really profound. I know big girls who are far healthier than I am, and whilst I used to think I was underweight, the way most people are today (Like Jojo and Anaisa) I'm probably larger than I should be - you can only see my ribs when I'm stretching. :rolleyes2 I'm disappointed and rather hurt that you would take digs at my appearance when I'm trying to civily state what I think.

... I don't know what you look like? All I said was how I look, and that whilst I've tended to consider it too thin, the way a lot of people (Not just on here) act, I'm not too thin at all, despite the fact that my bones show quite easily.

[Jojee]

... I don't know what you look like? All I said was how I look, and that whilst I've tended to consider it too thin, the way a lot of people (Not just on here) act, I'm not too thin at all, despite the fact that my bones show quite easily.
I see your comment could have been taken two ways and I must have misunderstood. However, your apparent sarcasm and your assumptions are still unwarranted, as it was in this case:



There is a standard for beauty, just like there is a standard for intelligence for example. We're not all geniuses, an we're not all beautiful.
Except that the standard for beauty is a hell of a lot more subjective than that for intelligence. My god, you must have a sad life, looking at all the REAL people you see every day and seeing nothing but disgusting malformed freaks. We all know that just because you do not find someone beautiful, it does not mean you find them a "disgusting, malformed freak."

I never stated that I endorsed being underweight; that can be just as unhealthy as it can be to be overweight. I'm surprised that you would assume that I would think only people who are walking skeletons can be beautiful or that you should lose weight when I have no idea what you are like. Especially when all I said was that unhealthiness should not be endorsed; I never even commented on your whole beauty argument. I'm happy for people who feel good about themselves. Some of the most beautiful people I know are larger people, because their personality shines from within and that makes them more beautiful than their appearance alone ever could.

You're right, it's hard to judge how healthy someone is by their appearance. Muscle mass and genetics and a variety of other factors could come into play. Perhaps that girl in the picture is healthy - but I can tell you that the gross amount of very overweight or obese people in this country (and many other developed countries) are not. There's a reason that doctors don't advocate obesity or being overweight.

Don't judge me. Thanks.

[VengefulRonin]

I knew they touched up people...but jesus, that first girl O_O

[Madame Adequate]

I never stated that I endorsed being underweight; that can be just as unhealthy as it can be to be overweight. I'm surprised that you would assume that I would think only people who are walking skeletons can be beautiful or that you should lose weight when I have no idea what you are like. Especially when all I said was that unhealthiness should not be endorsed; I never even commented on your whole beauty argument. I'm happy for people who feel good about themselves. Some of the most beautiful people I know are larger people, because their personality shines from within and that makes them more beautiful than their appearance alone ever could.

You are right, I dragged you into my comments against Anaisa based on basically a single comment of yours, which was that the woman looks too big to be healthy. Happen I disagree with that, but you presented your views in a reasonable way and I should have been a lot more considered in responding to what you said. My apologies. And further apologies if anything I said caused you offense because of how you look, all I know is a few vague things people have occasionally said, most of which were some time ago - it didn't occur to me that I knew anything at all until just now. I can see that what I said could be taken badly, and I'm sorry that it was.


You're right, it's hard to judge how healthy someone is by their appearance. Muscle mass and genetics and a variety of other factors could come into play. Perhaps that girl in the picture is healthy - but I can tell you that the gross amount of very overweight or obese people in this country (and many other developed countries) are not. There's a reason that doctors don't advocate obesity or being overweight.

Ah, yes, and I certainly think it's unwise to be so overweight it's actually bad for you - the difference is that I seem to consider that, at least in visual terms, to be quite a bit larger than many other people do. So whilst we'd probably say much the same thing to someone overweight, we consider who is overweight to be different (I grew up with a severely obese family member, that may have desensitized).

[Anaisa]

Bad news lady, you are going to be old one day.Well aren't you assumptious! How do you know I'll live to old age?


The beauty you "believe" is the beauty that media and society teach us, how can that be a "general" view of beauty, when it's obvious that each one has their own standards?Again, you're assuming. There are very few people I'd consider beautiful. That doesn't apply to the media. As I already said: The opinion amongst people doesn't even vary enough for there to be no standard.


What I am going to say is far from original but the true beauty lies within your actions and attitudes, some people may not impress you at first sight but you can notice later how beautiful they are Well yes. But when you're looking at a picture of a total stranger, that doesn't come into account.

Uh, what? "Beauty is subjective, but that doesn't mean it's subjective!" And a large number of believers doesn't make something true. There is no standard for beauty except what you [general you] think is beautiful. Case in point: One of the most beautiful girls I've ever seen had clearly suffered severe burns to her face when she was younger. I thought she was absolutely gorgeous. That's not what I said. Although there are varying degrees of what people find beautiful, there isn't enough variation for there to be no standard at all. Just like with anything else, you can disagree with the majority, but they're setting the standard. You can disagree with the standard, but it doesn't make it any less existent. An you yourself will surely not find all people equally attractive, so they can't all be beautiful to you.
It's pretty hard to judge how healthy someone is by their appearance, unless it's really profound. I know big girls who are far healthier than I am, and whilst I used to think I was underweight, the way most people are today (Like Jojo and Anaisa) I'm probably larger than I should be - you can only see my ribs when I'm stretching. If most people shared our same opinion, there would not be as many overweight people as there are. An it's not just an opinion that they're overweight, you can tell by looking at them that they are overweight. I think if everyone here was offered £100 to guess correctly whether those women were the weight they should be, or overweight, everybody would surely be betting they were overweight. An if they weren't, they'd be getting no money!

Whilst weight can cause health problems, I think we need to get away from this notion that weight = health problems. I can't even begin to imagine how the woman in that second picture might be too big to be healthy, she looks fine to me.I don't think either of those women are big enough to suffer serious health problems due to their weight, but they're not healthy. Being healthy requires a certain amount of physical activity, an they're obviously not getting enough of that. If they were, they wouldn't be overweight in the first place.

[DarkLadyNyara]

I don't think either of those women are big enough to suffer serious health problems due to their weight, but they're not healthy. Being healthy requires a certain amount of physical activity, an they're obviously not getting enough of that. If they were, they wouldn't be overweight in the first place.

I'm not touching most of this arguement, but that is untrue. You can be chubby and active, and you can be a skinny couch potato. There is always more than one factor in weight.

[Anaisa]

I don't think either of those women are big enough to suffer serious health problems due to their weight, but they're not healthy. Being healthy requires a certain amount of physical activity, an they're obviously not getting enough of that. If they were, they wouldn't be overweight in the first place.

I'm not touching most of this arguement, but that is untrue. You can be chubby and active,and you can be a skinny couch potato. There is always more than one factor in weight.I didn't say chubby, I said overweight. You can be active an chubby, but if you're chubby, you're obviously not exercising to the degree that you should be. A skinny couch potato will also not be physically fit. More physically fit than an overweight couch potato, but not actually physically fit.

[Megami]

Well aren't you assumptious! How do you know I'll live to old age?


But if you do, you'll have to live with that :/


Again, you're assuming. There are very few people I'd consider beautiful. That doesn't apply to the media. As I already said: The opinion amongst people doesn't even vary enough for there to be no standard.

I didn't say your personal tastes applied to the media but the image of a good looking girl was created by society. If when you were born, you were taught that "beauty" was an obese person, your standards would be completly different now.,of course that's out of possibility because that's the world we live in.


It's pretty hard to judge how healthy someone is by their appearance, unless it's really profound. I know big girls who are far healthier than I am, and whilst I used to think I was underweight, the way most people are today (Like Jojo and Anaisa) I'm probably larger than I should be - you can only see my ribs when I'm stretching.

Well I think the person who talked about that subject first was meaning that overweight is a cause for a variety of health problems, which is true...altough some people have problems of weight because health problems, other people can prevent it , having a better life style..

Diabetes, cholesterol...are some examples...

[Anaisa]

But if you do, you'll have to live with that :/


I'd rather be dead than really old. I'll never be a pruny looking frail old woman. The mere thought of it makes me feel sick.


I didn't say your personal tastes applied to the media but the image of a good looking girl was created by society. If when you were born, you were taught that "beauty" was an obese person, your standards would be completly different now.,of course that's out of possibility because that's the world we live in.My thoughts an opinions are certainly not dictated to by the rest of society. Most people that are considered beautiful by your average person wouldn't be beautiful to me. There are people that are considered beautiful, that I think are very ugly.

[Megami]

I'd rather be dead than really old. I'll never be a pruny looking frail old woman. The mere thought of it makes me feel sick.

I am not even going to discuss this one...speechless.


My thoughts an opinions are certainly not dictated to by the rest of society. Most people that are considered beautiful by your average person wouldn't be beautiful to me. There are people that are considered beautiful, that I think are very ugly.

This is what we call "personal tastes". But the basic idea is still the same.

[Anaisa]

This is what we call "personal tastes". But the basic idea is still the same.Again, you're assuming. For all you know, my idea of beauty could be somebody with one eye, a pink afro, an buck teeth.

[Megami]

Again, you're assuming. For all you know, my idea of beauty could be somebody with one eye, a pink afro, an buck teeth.

If that would be , you'd be contradicting yourself since you have said above that the concept of beauty doesn't vary too much.

But if you now agree that is subjective, we're reaching an agreement.

[Anaisa]

Again, you're assuming. For all you know, my idea of beauty could be somebody with one eye, a pink afro, an buck teeth.

If that would be , you'd be contradicting yourself since you have said above that the concept of beauty doesn't vary too much.

But if you now agree that is subjective, we're reaching an agreement.I said: The opinion amongst people doesn't even vary enough for there to be no standard. Meaning overall amongst all people it doesn't vary much. That doesn't mean there aren't people who have a rare concept of beauty, it just means their in the minority. I didn't say it didn't vary at all. An I didn't say my opinion of beauty doesn't vary too much from most peoples.

[Rusty]

I think the fact that the women in the third picture: http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/30sideswipe.JPG has quite large breasts doesn't help. If you took away them, she wouldn't look so big.

If people let magazines and the media define what is considered beautiful, we give permission for other people to make us feel inferior and not "good enough".

I don't think re-touching is bad - but I don't think it should be done to the extent it is performed.

[Araciel]

no offense to anyone, but those ads should only make you feel inferior if you are grossly insecure. that being said, ads in magazines or commercial television shouldn't discourage people from being who and what they are, as they so often and sadly do.

[Vincent, Thunder God]

This kind of perfectionistic approach is not going to help those who are subjected to it; us, the Western consumers. Little girls are already complaining of being too fat, or Christ's sake!

[NorthernChaosGod]

I don't know why this would come as a shock or a relief to anyone. It's well known that not only do these people get their hair, make-up and clothes done professionally, they are retouched afterwards.

No one looks as good as the people in magazines.

And let us not forget.

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
-- Eleanor Roosevelt

[Iceglow]

Having seen the work done by a make-up artist and modelling studio team first hand (no I was not the model, but I was with the model at the time) I know that a good make up artist can do wonders with things like eyebrows and "black bags" under the eyes without the computer doing work at all, so not all of it is touching up.

Also The top link that showed how the breasts were made to look bigger and fuller, well I have to say if you ladies buy your bra's correctly is easily performed by a decent bra (I've actually brought bra's for women so know a little about this kind of thing, I also worked in women's clothes stores for a while and still often have to help out at work on our clothing department which incidentally is primarily for women so my knowledge goes up 2 notches there.) Buying a bra from a shop like Ann Summers is far more likely to fit correctly and provide proper support than buying a bra from your local market or shop. Of course however I do understand that a lot of women will refuse to pay about £30 for a bra alone and a further 10 - 20 quid on the matching panties.

A lot of the stuff on there may or may not be touching up when you see a magazine cover, obviously for the purposes of that image they hired someone (whether or not she was an actual model or a random woman they knew is neither here nor there) and did do it via the computer but in all honesty I don't think every magazine cover is all done like that.

Touching up is far from a bad thing heck if I had the oppourtunity to have a proffessional touch up pictures of me I sure as hell would take it.

[Mirage]

I am well aware of all the retouching going on in the media business, and I have grown pretty tired of it all. When they use real girls, they should let them stay real. A girl that is photoshopped to hell and back isn't the same girl, imo.

Also, my grandmother looks much better than the old thing in the dove commercial. :]

[Zante]

Some people simply aren't beautifull, some aren't even good looking and a few are actualy butt ugly. So what? Does everyone have to be beautifull, and if they aren't, they fail? Because thats the message I am getting from these kinds of campaigns. There is more to a person than just looks. Instead of pretending that people who aren't pretty are, we (and they as well) should to accept this.