The True Nature and Intentions of Sephiroth [Spoilers]

[feioncastor]

Before you can discuss that, you have to clarify who you mean.

I've played FF7 many times over, and what I've gathered is that when the story begins with AVALANCHE destroying the No. 1 reactor, at that point in the story, the man Sephiroth is dead. He died when he fell into a Mako Reactor, after putting a large sword into Cloud. My understanding is that Sephiroth was a powerful man, capable of doing things that most humans could never do. But he was still a mortal man with limitations almost identical to the average human.

If that's the case, how does one explain the Sephiroth you see in the game at various times, like on the boat from Junon or in the Forgotten City, descending from above with the afforementioned large sword?

That being is actually Jenova, I think. And that's the Sephiroth that you chase after. That's the one who can fly and stuff. Humans can't hover like that. The real Sephiroth was no exception.

So..... The real human Sephiroth who died a while ago wasn't a bad guy initially. He learned where he came from, and it drove him all kindsa crazy. His crazy angry-at-the-world rampages ended with his death, in the Mako Reactor.

But the Jenova Sephiroth is totally different. That one is always babbling on about the planet and the Promised Land and such. It's not angry at the world like the real Sephy was. It is simply doing what it feels is right. That Sephiroth has nothing but good intentions in that he is setting things the way they should be.

So to call him a good "villain" seems stupid because someone with intentions like that isn't very "villainous". In fact, upon completing the game, you're left to think that perhaps Sephiroth/Jenova was right. Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts. I think Cloud's not concerned with the justification of the humans or any of that. I think he's concerned with stopping a world threatening catastrophe at the moment, and then he'll sit down and figure out the philosophical and moral rights and wrongs after the eminent threat is gone.

I think I recall reading that Sephiroth is biologically the child of Hojo and Lucretia. I do remember something about Hojo messing with him while he was still in the womb. But how does Vincent fit into that scenario? And what about Professor Gast? I know he was this brilliant researcher, but what did he uncover? Or what was he working on? I know it relates to the Cetra, because I seem to remember him being married to Ifalna, whom I seem to remember being Aeris's real mother.

And while I'm getting all FF7 philosophical, I have a few questions that I haven't gotten figured out yet. Did Nibelheim really burn down? If so, why was in totally good shape when you arrive there in the game? And why does no one there recall the event taking place? And if it didn't burn down, then why does Cloud think it did? And why does Tifa think it did? When Cloud tells the story at the Kalm Inn, Tifa doesn't object to it and seems to sit silently as Cloud talks about Sephiroth burning down a city.

So that brings me to my next question. Was Cloud really an experiment? I know he probably got the Mako Treatment like other guys in SOLDIER, even though I think he was never really in SOLDIER. But was he really part of Jenova like Sephiroth was? Did Hojo or whoever actually inject him with Jenova to try and create a superhuman kinda guy? He did go totally crazy when he was with Zack heading to Midgar, when Zack died. I'd think that might be a side effect of the Jenova infusion thing. But that would mean that he didn't really grow up in Nibelheim.

Or maybe he grew up in Nibelheim, left to join SOLDIER, and then they did their weird stuff to him and it made him all crazy.

And why does Cloud think that he was Zack in a lot of his stories? You find out that he was a Shinra guy, but not in SOLDIER. So how did Cloud get to thinking that he was Zack in all those stories?

When Sephiroth, Zack/Cloud and two Shinra guys go to Nibelheim (during the Kalm Inn story), Tifa talks with Cloud during that visit, and even guides them through Mt. Nibel. You learn later that Cloud was there for that visit, but Tifa never knew because he had his helmet and mask on the whole time.

And the Weapons? What's their deal? Are they the planet's self defense mechanism? They come out when someone is messing with the Mako levels and just level the world, Mana Beast style?

And finally, why is it that when you use "Climhazzard" on Palmer (during the fight in Rocket Town), Cloud jams the end of the sword directly into Palmer's crotch before leaping into the air?

So there you have it. All the weird confusing stuff that came to mind. Even after several play-throughs, I still don't get a lot of that stuff.

[blackmage_nuke]

Nibelheim did burn down, if you go there after the reunion (i think after that) and talk to them they say they were hired ( i forgot by who) to pretend nothing happened so they could study the behavior of those little black things with number tattoo's on them. they rebuilt the town to study thier behaviour too.

Vincent was Lucrecia's boyfriend or something, he was also one of the turks with them when they were doing all that research in Nibelheim before you met him.

And i believe Hitler thought he was doing the right thing when doing all that killing and genocide. (but i didnt really pay attention in history class so im not sure)

-

[Avarice-ness]

So when he refers to mother as Jenova he's talking about himself?

If so that makes it even more creepy then it previously was.


So to call him a good "villain" seems stupid because someone with intentions like that isn't very "villainous". In fact, upon completing the game, you're left to think that perhaps Sephiroth/Jenova was right. Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts.

That's true in any situation. The great evil of anything can be interperted as a good source. Most things or people do not unite until a great destruction becomes present, Sephiroth threatens the world, people unite to fight against him, they wouldn't have united unless the world was threatened, in a way if it wasn't for any villain in anything or any great disaster that happened the world would never need saving meaning the people who would come together and work as a team to save it. They would go along doing their own seperate thing never having to rely on the idea of group work. In a way, evil and destruction are the only ways to get people to see that they arn't just a single person in this world. Sure the good guys save it, but no one would have to unite unless there was a reason.

[Ryushikaze]

No, Sephiroth was the same person who jumped into the stream in Nibleheim, AND he was in charge. This is official, so you can't really argue with it.

And his entire purpose is to become a god, or at least it was after he learned what the truth of what had been done to him had been done and the resentment set in.

As for Cloud replacing Zack in his stories, he had a bad case of dementia after being used as a guinea pig by Hojo for four years, and replaced himself with Zack as part of his ad hoc mind to give himself some 'positive' memories. It's damn impressive he was able to recreate his mind at all, really.
On the same note, it was Zack Tifa talked with. Cloud was too ashamed to let her know he came back, though she would have apparently been overjoyed to learn he had been there.

[The Crystal]

Before you can discuss that, you have to clarify who you mean.

I've played FF7 many times over, and what I've gathered is that when the story begins with AVALANCHE destroying the No. 1 reactor, at that point in the story, the man Sephiroth is dead. He died when he fell into a Mako Reactor, after putting a large sword into Cloud. My understanding is that Sephiroth was a powerful man, capable of doing things that most humans could never do. But he was still a mortal man with limitations almost identical to the average human.

If that's the case, how does one explain the Sephiroth you see in the game at various times, like on the boat from Junon or in the Forgotten City, descending from above with the afforementioned large sword?

That being is actually Jenova, I think. And that's the Sephiroth that you chase after. That's the one who can fly and stuff. Humans can't hover like that. The real Sephiroth was no exception.

So..... The real human Sephiroth who died a while ago wasn't a bad guy initially. He learned where he came from, and it drove him all kindsa crazy. His crazy angry-at-the-world rampages ended with his death, in the Mako Reactor.

But the Jenova Sephiroth is totally different. That one is always babbling on about the planet and the Promised Land and such. It's not angry at the world like the real Sephy was. It is simply doing what it feels is right. That Sephiroth has nothing but good intentions in that he is setting things the way they should be.

So to call him a good "villain" seems stupid because someone with intentions like that isn't very "villainous". In fact, upon completing the game, you're left to think that perhaps Sephiroth/Jenova was right. Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts. I think Cloud's not concerned with the justification of the humans or any of that. I think he's concerned with stopping a world threatening catastrophe at the moment, and then he'll sit down and figure out the philosophical and moral rights and wrongs after the eminent threat is gone.

It seems that you didn't understand some things. In Nibelheim, Sephiroth was exactly like you said. A guy that wanted to avenge the Cetras because the humans killed them. He wanted to do this, because he thought that he and Jenova were Cetras too. BUT what you have to understand(and remember) is that after Sephiroth jumped(retconned in LO) in the Lifestream(in Nibelheim) he learned many things in the Lifestream, and gained the knowledge of it. And with the knowledge of the Lifestream, he learned about Jenova's true nature(a "calamity from the skies"(alien) capable of controlling its cells(Reunion), that killed the Cetra), like you can see her:

"Cloud: Sephiroth!

Sephiroth: Being here brings back memories. Are you going to participate in the Reunion?

Cloud: I don't even know what a Reunion is!

Sephiroth: Jenova will be at the Reunion. Jenova will join the Reunion becoming a calamity from the skies.

Cloud: Jenova, a calamity from the skies? You mean she wasn't an Ancient!?

Sephiroth: ...I see. I don't think you have the right to participate. I will go North past Mt. Nibel. If you wish to find out... then follow...

Cloud: ...Reunion? Calamity from the skies?"

Sephiroth already know that he and Jenova aren't Cetras, and he don't want to avenge them(the Cetras) anymore. What he want to do, is absorb all the Lifestream of the planet and become a god. But if he absorb the lifeforce of the planet, the planet and all living beings in it, will die.
And do you think that Sephiroth don't know this? Of course that he know, but he don't care. He just want to become a god, and will use anyone to do it, even his "mother" Jenova(the Ultimania Omega Guide said that Sephiroth was controlling Jenova's body with the power of his will).
Sephiroth don't care about the humans, the Cetra, and even Jenova, he only care for himself. He is evil and don't have any "good intentions". He want to become a god, and will kill anyone in his way to achieve this. Simple as that.


I think I recall reading that Sephiroth is biologically the child of Hojo and Lucretia. I do remember something about Hojo messing with him while he was still in the womb. But how does Vincent fit into that scenario? And what about Professor Gast? I know he was this brilliant researcher, but what did he uncover? Or what was he working on? I know it relates to the Cetra, because I seem to remember him being married to Ifalna, whom I seem to remember being Aeris's real mother.

Vincent was a Turk that fell in love with Lucrecia, but she choosed Hojo. Then, she became pregnant of Sephiroth, and both of them decided to inject Jenova cells inside of Sephiroth's body, as a part of an experiment.
In the begining, Gast(that was working in the project), Hojo, and Lucrecia, thought that Jenova was a Cetra, and wanted to make Sephiroth be like a Cetra, to help Shinra to find the Promised Land. But after some time, they discovered the true nature of Jenova, and discovered that her cells enhance human's capabilitys, because Sephiroth was becoming more and more powerful. Because of this, Shinra begun to inject Jenova cells in SOLDIERs.
Gast was the guy who found Jenova, and was part of the Jenova Project, with Hojo.


And while I'm getting all FF7 philosophical, I have a few questions that I haven't gotten figured out yet. Did Nibelheim really burn down? If so, why was in totally good shape when you arrive there in the game? And why does no one there recall the event taking place? And if it didn't burn down, then why does Cloud think it did? And why does Tifa think it did? When Cloud tells the story at the Kalm Inn, Tifa doesn't object to it and seems to sit silently as Cloud talks about Sephiroth burning down a city.

Sephiroth burned the town, but after this, Shinra tryed to hide the incident of everyone else, and because of this, they build all the city again, exactly like it was before being burned. Then they put actors in it, to pretend that they allways lived in Nibelheim, and pretend that nothing happened.


So that brings me to my next question. Was Cloud really an experiment? I know he probably got the Mako Treatment like other guys in SOLDIER, even though I think he was never really in SOLDIER. But was he really part of Jenova like Sephiroth was? Did Hojo or whoever actually inject him with Jenova to try and create a superhuman kinda guy? He did go totally crazy when he was with Zack heading to Midgar, when Zack died. I'd think that might be a side effect of the Jenova infusion thing. But that would mean that he didn't really grow up in Nibelheim.

Or maybe he grew up in Nibelheim, left to join SOLDIER, and then they did their weird stuff to him and it made him all crazy.

After the Nibelheim incident, both Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells. Hojo did this, because he wanted to test his theory about the Reunion. Hojo knew that the Reunion would happen, and because of this, he injected Jenova cells in the citizens of Nibelheim that survived Sephiroth's attack, to study them and the Reunion process(these people were the black cape guys/girls). Zack and Cloud were part of this experiment.



And why does Cloud think that he was Zack in a lot of his stories? You find out that he was a Shinra guy, but not in SOLDIER. So how did Cloud get to thinking that he was Zack in all those stories?

When Sephiroth, Zack/Cloud and two Shinra guys go to Nibelheim (during the Kalm Inn story), Tifa talks with Cloud during that visit, and even guides them through Mt. Nibel. You learn later that Cloud was there for that visit, but Tifa never knew because he had his helmet and mask on the whole time.

Because of the experiments in Nibelheim. Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells and Mako, and this made Zacks memories go to Cloud's mind. And because of Cloud's weak mind, and his desire to become a SOLDIER, he convinced himself that that memories were his owns, and he was a SOLDIER.
And Tifa knew that Cloud was there, because of the retconn in Last Order. But the explanation of why she didn't told Cloud during the game, is not revealed.


And the Weapons? What's their deal? Are they the planet's self defense mechanism? Their come out when someone is messing with the Mako levels and just level the world, Mana Beast style?

If i remember well, they were created to fight against Jenova, but she was sealed, before their activation, and because of this, they weren't used. But is like you said, they are the planet's self mechanism of defense. Their objective is to destroy everything that is harming the planet.

And is true that you played the game many times? Because some of these questions are very well explained in the game, and i don't understand how you could have missed them.

[feioncastor]

Yes, I have played through FF7 a good 5 times or so. But I haven't played it for about 5 or 6 years because someone stole my Disc 1. I've wanted to start a New Game and go through the whole thing again, but as I said, I can't.

[NeoCracker]

The fact that Sephiroth is in control kind of killed part of the game for me. It doesn't make much sense that He now seems to want the exact same thing Jenova wanted.

[The Crystal]

The fact that Sephiroth is in control kind of killed part of the game for me. It doesn't make much sense that He now seems to want the exact same thing Jenova wanted.

Jenova wanted to kill all the living beings in the planet, but Sephiroth wanted to absorb the Lifestream and become a god. I don't think that they have the same objectives.

[Ryushikaze]

After the Nibelheim incident, both Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells. Hojo did this, because he wanted to test his theory about the Reunion. Hojo knew that the Reunion would happen, and because of this, he injected Jenova cells in the citizens of Nibelheim that survived Sephiroth's attack, to study them and the Reunion process(these people were the black cape guys/girls). Zack and Cloud were part of this experiment.

Actually, Zack already had a Jenova injection before being captured from being a soldier, which probably explains why he was largely unresponsive to the injections and mako showering.


Because of the experiments in Nibelheim. Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells and Mako, and this made Zacks memories go to Cloud's mind. And because of Cloud's weak mind, and his desire to become a SOLDIER, he convinced himself that that memories were his owns, and he was a SOLDIER.

I'd always viewed it as a defense mechanism than anything else, really. He didn't mean to replace himself with Zack conciously, but since Zack had been telling him all these stories, and because Zack represented what he wanted to be, he took the image of Zack and made it his image to give himself an anchor while his real mind restored itself. It might have worked too, if not for Sephiroth's interference.


And Tifa knew that Cloud was there, because of the retconn in Last Order. But the explanation of why she didn't told Cloud during the game, is not revealed.

Actually, I don't think she remembered seeing him. Her expression in LO is slightly glazed, and given that she had just taken some serious blunt force trauma, her long term memory might be on the fritz. She does have a history of not remembering the moments just before a serious accident, such as the falling incident when she was eight.

[~Storm Ninja~]

an example of this is when sephiroth encased in materia (or whatever hardened lifestream is in that case) is hanging from the ceiling of a room in the northern crater area and cloud goes crazy and stuff. That sephiroth is distictly different from the other, as I can't picture sephiroth being encased in a crystal for no reason.

Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the "evil" world destroying sephiroth there at the same time? my memory could be bad, but i'm just bringing this up.

if i remember correctly:

SOLDIER sephiroth was human. Then he went crazy. Then the events of last order, with cloud getting impaled, etc, sephiroth falling into the lifestream, occured.

Lucrecia agreed to participate in an experiment where she would mother a child, that would be injected with jenova cells as a fetus. I can't recall if this was a sephiroth clone, or the sephiroth they had attempted to clone many times afterward. I am confused.

What does vincent have to do with this? well, I belive this is while vincent was being experimented on to create the badass, shapeshifting ex-turk we know and love. Its all in DoC.

So "jenova" sephiroth, led to belive his mother's name was Jenova, discovered a bunch of stuff, decided to destroy the planet, and turned into the seven winged Safer Sephiroth, and got killed. Probably by omnislash.

that's all I know.

Except one last thing: the human sephiroth, at least i belive so, is the crystalized being hanging upside down in the northern crater, who may have been dropped off there because the lifestream was flowing to the northern crater to "heal its wounds".

EDIT: to make everything totally clear, I don't know if there was another one or something, but I belive that cloud, at least the playable one, is one of the many failed sephiroth clones I mentioned earlier. The rest of the clones were those black... things. That is why cloud is occasionally under Sephiroth's control. It would be helpful if someone could look up the story on gamefaq's or wikipedia or something.

[Avarice-ness]

Okay what if the only reason Sephiroth lived was because Jenova wanted him too and they can both be sephiroth -and- Jenova. If Sephiroth can control Cloud (when he makes him try to kill Aeris) then why couldn't Jenova just be doing the same thing to him. Since Sephiroth wants to be obscenely close to 'mother' he wouldn't have any objections to being controlled.

[~Storm Ninja~]

It is my belief that Jenova simply dosen't have this power, or chooses not to exercise it. However, Sephiroth takes full advantage of his clone "brother" cloud as seen in numerous scenes. As to the "both sephiroth and Jenova" thing, well, this is getting really weird. Sephiroth and jenova are different beings, however sephiroth has jenova cells, which make him all freaky and stuff. Don't flame if you disagree, but I think that just kinda popped up at random.

[The Crystal]

Actually, Zack already had a Jenova injection before being captured from being a soldier, which probably explains why he was largely unresponsive to the injections and mako showering.

Yeah i know, but this didn't stoped Hojo of experimented him again. I remember that in the flashback, we see Cloud AND Zack inside the Mako pods.


I'd always viewed it as a defense mechanism than anything else, really. He didn't mean to replace himself with Zack conciously, but since Zack had been telling him all these stories, and because Zack represented what he wanted to be, he took the image of Zack and made it his image to give himself an anchor while his real mind restored itself. It might have worked too, if not for Sephiroth's interference.

I don't think that was a defense mechanism created by his mind, by just hearing Zack's stories. The Lifestream is formed by many memories, and if someone is inside of it for much time, this someone can begin to absorb the memories of others and lose his/her identity(i think that this was stated by Aerith in "Maiden", when Cloud and Tifa fell in the Lifestream, in Mideel). I think that this is what happened. Cloud thought that he was Zack, not because of some stories that he just heard, but because he "absorbed" Zack's memories in the Mako pod, because of the Lifestream, and maybe, even because of Jenova cells.


Actually, I don't think she remembered seeing him. Her expression in LO is slightly glazed, and given that she had just taken some serious blunt force trauma, her long term memory might be on the fritz. She does have a history of not remembering the moments just before a serious accident, such as the falling incident when she was eight.

I'm expectin SE to answer why she didn't told Cloud, but if they don't, i will accept what you are saying, because this make sense.

[Ryushikaze]

Sephiroth and Jenova are the same being. They are both Sephiroth. Jenova, if it ever had a mind, was braindead by the time of FF7, and Sephiroth now wields it as a puppet. This is the 'sephiroth' you see throughout the game.

Sephiroth is Lucrecia's child, experimented on in the womb.

Sephiroth copies (clones was a botch by Sony) are people who have had the same procedure that was performed on fetal Sephiroth performed on them. They are not genetic duplicates, and Cloud and Sephiroth are not at all related.

[~Storm Ninja~]

Even if "clone" is a botch by sony, there are two distinct points that are unexplained of this is true.

1. the existence of 2 sephiroths
2. the connection between cloud and sephiroth (primarily illustrated by mind and muscle control)

if you choose to specify the second as bull, I would ask why sephiroth wouldn't just control someone else, say for example, tifa, to get what he wants, or better, make cloud do what he wants by blackmail. There is some distinct connection or reason for his exclusive control of cloud.

This thread has a lot of contradictions. Since many of us haven't played in a long while, and probably have fleeting memory of the complex story, I suggest someone finds a website and provide some evidence via a link or reference.

[chrisfffan]

Before you can discuss that, you have to clarify who you mean.

I've played FF7 many times over, and what I've gathered is that when the story begins with AVALANCHE destroying the No. 1 reactor, at that point in the story, the man Sephiroth is dead. He died when he fell into a Mako Reactor, after putting a large sword into Cloud. My understanding is that Sephiroth was a powerful man, capable of doing things that most humans could never do. But he was still a mortal man with limitations almost identical to the average human.

If that's the case, how does one explain the Sephiroth you see in the game at various times, like on the boat from Junon or in the Forgotten City, descending from above with the afforementioned large sword?

That being is actually Jenova, I think. And that's the Sephiroth that you chase after. That's the one who can fly and stuff. Humans can't hover like that. The real Sephiroth was no exception.

So..... The real human Sephiroth who died a while ago wasn't a bad guy initially. He learned where he came from, and it drove him all kindsa crazy. His crazy angry-at-the-world rampages ended with his death, in the Mako Reactor.

But the Jenova Sephiroth is totally different. That one is always babbling on about the planet and the Promised Land and such. It's not angry at the world like the real Sephy was. It is simply doing what it feels is right. That Sephiroth has nothing but good intentions in that he is setting things the way they should be.

So to call him a good "villain" seems stupid because someone with intentions like that isn't very "villainous". In fact, upon completing the game, you're left to think that perhaps Sephiroth/Jenova was right. Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts. I think Cloud's not concerned with the justification of the humans or any of that. I think he's concerned with stopping a world threatening catastrophe at the moment, and then he'll sit down and figure out the philosophical and moral rights and wrongs after the eminent threat is gone.

I think I recall reading that Sephiroth is biologically the child of Hojo and Lucretia. I do remember something about Hojo messing with him while he was still in the womb. But how does Vincent fit into that scenario? And what about Professor Gast? I know he was this brilliant researcher, but what did he uncover? Or what was he working on? I know it relates to the Cetra, because I seem to remember him being married to Ifalna, whom I seem to remember being Aeris's real mother.

And while I'm getting all FF7 philosophical, I have a few questions that I haven't gotten figured out yet. Did Nibelheim really burn down? If so, why was in totally good shape when you arrive there in the game? And why does no one there recall the event taking place? And if it didn't burn down, then why does Cloud think it did? And why does Tifa think it did? When Cloud tells the story at the Kalm Inn, Tifa doesn't object to it and seems to sit silently as Cloud talks about Sephiroth burning down a city.

So that brings me to my next question. Was Cloud really an experiment? I know he probably got the Mako Treatment like other guys in SOLDIER, even though I think he was never really in SOLDIER. But was he really part of Jenova like Sephiroth was? Did Hojo or whoever actually inject him with Jenova to try and create a superhuman kinda guy? He did go totally crazy when he was with Zack heading to Midgar, when Zack died. I'd think that might be a side effect of the Jenova infusion thing. But that would mean that he didn't really grow up in Nibelheim.

Or maybe he grew up in Nibelheim, left to join SOLDIER, and then they did their weird stuff to him and it made him all crazy.

And why does Cloud think that he was Zack in a lot of his stories? You find out that he was a Shinra guy, but not in SOLDIER. So how did Cloud get to thinking that he was Zack in all those stories?

When Sephiroth, Zack/Cloud and two Shinra guys go to Nibelheim (during the Kalm Inn story), Tifa talks with Cloud during that visit, and even guides them through Mt. Nibel. You learn later that Cloud was there for that visit, but Tifa never knew because he had his helmet and mask on the whole time.

And the Weapons? What's their deal? Are they the planet's self defense mechanism? They come out when someone is messing with the Mako levels and just level the world, Mana Beast style?

And finally, why is it that when you use "Climhazzard" on Palmer (during the fight in Rocket Town), Cloud jams the end of the sword directly into Palmer's crotch before leaping into the air?

So there you have it. All the weird confusing stuff that came to mind. Even after several play-throughs, I still don't get a lot of that stuff.

play it again!

[Dragon Mage]

I've played FF7 many times over, and what I've gathered is that when the story begins with AVALANCHE destroying the No. 1 reactor, at that point in the story, the man Sephiroth is dead. He died when he fell into a Mako Reactor, after putting a large sword into Cloud. My understanding is that Sephiroth was a powerful man, capable of doing things that most humans could never do. But he was still a mortal man with limitations almost identical to the average human.

Sephiroth's body may (i'm not saying it did) have been destroyed, but, probably because of the alien powers he has inherited from Jenova, his mind was not destroyed. So he is not dead. And in no way is he a 'normal man'. He's just about as alien as one could get, literally. He was quite literally half human and half alien. This was achieved by the fact that Jenova's cells were injected into him before he was born. This resulted in alien DNA and human DNA mixing together. We all know that Jenova has strange powers; Sephiroth has some or most of those powers but he cannot use all of them with as much power as Jenova, because his human genes dillute his power. He would have used these very powers to prevent total death.


If that's the case, how does one explain the Sephiroth you see in the game at various times, like on the boat from Junon or in the Forgotten City, descending from above with the afforementioned large sword?

Actually, that isn't sephiroth. It's Jenova. Sephiroth can control the dead body of Jenova. Jenova is a shapshifter and has complete control over each individual cell, granting the aformentioned ability. Sephiroth, as a cross of Jenova and humans, has this same ability. In this case, he's using it to control the body of Jenova.


But the Jenova Sephiroth is totally different. That one is always babbling on about the planet and the Promised Land and such. It's not angry at the world like the real Sephy was. It is simply doing what it feels is right. That Sephiroth has nothing but good intentions in that he is setting things the way they should be.

You are confusing the set-up here. It's the same mind, but a different body. Jenova is dead--it can't think. The mind, the will, behind the actions of Jenova is all Sephiroth. When Sephiroth learned about his past, he did go crazy, like you said. But that Sephiroth and this 'Jenova sephiroth' as you call it, are the same, in the mind at least.
Sephiroth was angry at the indiginty of what has happend to his 'mother' and himself. But Jenova came here with the merciless intention to take over the world, for reasons unkown. It was killed however, by the remaining cetra, but not before most of the Cetra were already killed. Sephiroth set out to get revenge and finish was Jenova started.


Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts. I think Cloud's not concerned with the justification of the humans or any of that. I think he's concerned with stopping a world threatening catastrophe at the moment, and then he'll sit down and figure out the philosophical and moral rights and wrongs after the eminent threat is gone.

The humans did not kill the Cetra. Humans and Cetra are one and the same--don't forget that. The Cetra, IMO, were humans that had telepathic powers, enabling them to speak with the planet. Not all had this power, thus creating your mundane 'human'. It may very well be that the Cetra who killed Jenova were actually human, as Jenova did not kill them for the posed no threat to it.


I think I recall reading that Sephiroth is biologically the child of Hojo and Lucretia. I do remember something about Hojo messing with him while he was still in the womb. But how does Vincent fit into that scenario? And what about Professor Gast? I know he was this brilliant researcher, but what did he uncover? Or what was he working on? I know it relates to the Cetra, because I seem to remember him being married to Ifalna, whom I seem to remember being Aeris's real mother.

If Jenova cells hadn't been injected into him, he would have been born a normal human being. Vincent loved Lucretia and was against the whole thing, trying to create an 'ancient' (they thought Jenova was a Cetra but it wasn't.) via human experiement. His opinions had repercussions, obviously. Professer Gast was the one who created Sephiroth.


I have a few questions that I haven't gotten figured out yet. Did Nibelheim really burn down? If so, why was in totally good shape when you arrive there in the game? And why does no one there recall the event taking place? And if it didn't burn down, then why does Cloud think it did? And why does Tifa think it did? When Cloud tells the story at the Kalm Inn, Tifa doesn't object to it and seems to sit silently as Cloud talks about Sephiroth burning down a city.

OH, the town does burn down. Here, in the game go to Niblehiem and go to Tifa's room. In the upper left-hand corner there is a desk with paper on it. Go up to the desk and press 'O' until you read the paper, it shouldn't be too hard. This will explain everything to you. Shin Ra rebuilt Nibelhiem to cover up the whole thing. Go read it the letter. Then you'll be wiser.


as Cloud really an experiment? I know he probably got the Mako Treatment like other guys in SOLDIER, even though I think he was never really in SOLDIER. But was he really part of Jenova like Sephiroth was? Did Hojo or whoever actually inject him with Jenova to try and create a superhuman kinda guy? He did go totally crazy when he was with Zack heading to Midgar, when Zack died. I'd think that might be a side effect of the Jenova infusion thing. But that would mean that he didn't really grow up in Nibelheim.

And why does Cloud think that he was Zack in a lot of his stories? You find out that he was a Shinra guy, but not in SOLDIER. So how did Cloud get to thinking that he was Zack in all those stories?

As Sephiroth has control over all Jenova cells, that also means that he has control of the cells that have been injected into countless, SOLDIER's, clones, and human experiments. Now this is where Cloud comes in. After he passed out in the reactor, Shin Ra came in and rounded up all the survivors for an experiment. This included Cloud and Zack. As Cloud was also experimented on, Jenova cells were also injected into him as well. Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells to his advantage, mainly in the memory part of the brain. Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong. However, the Mako-immersion process that accompanies the injection of Jenova cells on the experiments has a dramatic effect. The Mako--lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news--for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind, and if that person, like Cloud, wasn't particularly fond of their life, it would be easy to get lost in the flood of memories and literally lose ones own identity. This is what happend to all the previous Sephiroth clones. However, Cloud, who always wanted to have the life that Zack had, took the word 'pretend' to a whole new level, and began to piece together his own mind in a life that he wanted, rather than his own. Basically, he took the the life of his friend Zack, and remade his previous life on all the knowledge he had aka the stories. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight.

Hopefully you read all of that and understand it.


And the Weapons? What's their deal? Are they the planet's self defense mechanism? They come out when someone is messing with the Mako levels and just level the world, Mana Beast style?

The Weapons were created by the planet as a means to kill Jenova, when it first came and was killing all the Cetra/humans. However, the remaining Cetra killed Jenova before the Weapons were ever activated and just as they were finished. So the planet had no use for them and just let them lie dormant, to be awakened whenever they may be needed again. In the game, the Weapons started to attack the Shin Ra because it was the Shin Ra that caused the whole mess in the first place. It could not attack/find sephiroth and so tried to eliminate those who had revived the old problem.

Now go back and read what you skipped over. I mean it.

[Ryushikaze]

Even if "clone" is a botch by sony,

It is.


there are two distinct points that are unexplained of this is true.

1. the existence of 2 sephiroths
2. the connection between cloud and sephiroth (primarily illustrated by mind and muscle control)

if you choose to specify the second as bull, I would ask why sephiroth wouldn't just control someone else, say for example, tifa, to get what he wants, or better, make cloud do what he wants by blackmail. There is some distinct connection or reason for his exclusive control of cloud.


There AREN'T two Sephiroths. There's Sephiroth, up in the northern crater, and the remnants of Jenova taking the form of Sephiroth at his command.
And no, point 2 ISN'T unexplained. Cloud has a weak will and contains Jenova cells. Just as Cloud can influence the body of Jenova, so too does he have minor influence over those infected by Jenova, especially the Sephiroth Copies, who are brimming with the stuff. So, no, Sephiroth doesn't have exclusive control of Cloud. He can also control the Black robed figures who are also Sephiroth copies.


This thread has a lot of contradictions. Since many of us haven't played in a long while, and probably have fleeting memory of the complex story, I suggest someone finds a website and provide some evidence via a link or reference.

I replayed the game only a month and a half a go. My memory is still pretty fresh.

[The Crystal]

Even if "clone" is a botch by sony, there are two distinct points that are unexplained of this is true.

1. the existence of 2 sephiroths

Sephiroth 1:


5 years ago, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream holding the head of Jenova, going to the Northern Crater, where the Planet's energy is concentrated, and where he would begin the Reunion -- and assuring his restoration -- by focusing through Jenova's cells. This regeneration was to be carried out by way of the Reunion, as the scattered Sephiroth Clones (-->P.213) would begin migrating toward the Northern Crater.

Sephiroth 2:


Shortly after Cloud was apprehended when he broke into the Shin-Ra building to rescue Aerith, the Reunion began. Hojo expected the headless main body to be the focal point for the Reunion once it began, but in reality, it was the Northern Crater. The scattered Sephiroth Clones and the main body of Jenova within the Shin-Ra building all began to move. Jenova shattered its containment case, murdered President Shinra, escaped from the Shin-Ra building and began to wander the world. Now, Jenova's mimic abilities caused the main body to take on Sephiroth's voice and appearance, which it kept hereafter during its appearances in various places.



2. the connection between cloud and sephiroth (primarily illustrated by mind and muscle control)

Cloud have Jenova cells inside his body, and Sephiroth can controll Jenova cells to make the Reunion. Because of this, Sephiroth can manipulate Cloud and influence him.


if you choose to specify the second as bull, I would ask why sephiroth wouldn't just control someone else, say for example, tifa, to get what he wants, or better, make cloud do what he wants by blackmail. There is some distinct connection or reason for his exclusive control of cloud.

Sephiroth can only controll people that have Jenova cells inside of them. This is why he can controll Cloud and the black cape guys, but not Tifa, or Red XIII, or etc.


This thread has a lot of contradictions. Since many of us haven't played in a long while, and probably have fleeting memory of the complex story, I suggest someone finds a website and provide some evidence via a link or reference.

I suggest that you play the game again, and read the Ultimania Omega Guide created by SE, here:
http://faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html

[Avarice-ness]

This thread has a lot of contradictions. Since many of us haven't played in a long while, and probably have fleeting memory of the complex story, I suggest someone finds a website and provide some evidence via a link or reference.

Dude, go read the 'Is Sephiroth the best bad guy' thread then come to this one and it's captain of contradictions.

Because now this thread is starting to make me believe that Jenova is actually the bad guy 'cause of the Sephiroth controlling and such.

[Dragon Mage]

Jenova is the tool, nothing more.

[Firo Volondé]

Sephiroth 1:


5 years ago, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream holding the head of Jenova, going to the Northern Crater, where the Planet's energy is concentrated, and where he would begin the Reunion -- and assuring his restoration -- by focusing through Jenova's cells. This regeneration was to be carried out by way of the Reunion, as the scattered Sephiroth Clones (-->P.213) would begin migrating toward the Northern Crater.

Sephiroth 2:


Shortly after Cloud was apprehended when he broke into the Shin-Ra building to rescue Aerith, the Reunion began. Hojo expected the headless main body to be the focal point for the Reunion once it began, but in reality, it was the Northern Crater. The scattered Sephiroth Clones and the main body of Jenova within the Shin-Ra building all began to move. Jenova shattered its containment case, murdered President Shinra, escaped from the Shin-Ra building and began to wander the world. Now, Jenova's mimic abilities caused the main body to take on Sephiroth's voice and appearance, which it kept hereafter during its appearances in various places.

If there are two Sephiroths, there must also be two Masamunes (the one seen in the Nibelheim and the one used to kill President Shinra and Aerith). How did Jenova Sephiroth obtain the second Masamune?


why is it that when you use "Climhazzard" on Palmer (during the fight in Rocket Town), Cloud jams the end of the sword directly into Palmer's crotch before leaping into the air?

Because Cloud hates all Shinra people with a passion, and tries to deliver as much hurt as possible to them. And Climhazzard and a sword to the groin hurts a lot more than Climhazzard alone. ;)

[Ryushikaze]

If there are two Sephiroths, there must also be two Masamunes (the one seen in the Nibelheim and the one used to kill President Shinra and Aerith). How did Jenova Sephiroth obtain the second Masamune?

Same way Sephiroth got his Masamune in AC. Made it from spirit energy.

[~Storm Ninja~]

Now we're getting somewhere.

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

Before you can discuss that, you have to clarify who you mean.

I've played FF7 many times over, and what I've gathered is that when the story begins with AVALANCHE destroying the No. 1 reactor, at that point in the story, the man Sephiroth is dead. He died when he fell into a Mako Reactor, after putting a large sword into Cloud. My understanding is that Sephiroth was a powerful man, capable of doing things that most humans could never do. But he was still a mortal man with limitations almost identical to the average human.

If that's the case, how does one explain the Sephiroth you see in the game at various times, like on the boat from Junon or in the Forgotten City, descending from above with the afforementioned large sword?

That being is actually Jenova, I think. And that's the Sephiroth that you chase after. That's the one who can fly and stuff. Humans can't hover like that. The real Sephiroth was no exception.

So..... The real human Sephiroth who died a while ago wasn't a bad guy initially. He learned where he came from, and it drove him all kindsa crazy. His crazy angry-at-the-world rampages ended with his death, in the Mako Reactor.

But the Jenova Sephiroth is totally different. That one is always babbling on about the planet and the Promised Land and such. It's not angry at the world like the real Sephy was. It is simply doing what it feels is right. That Sephiroth has nothing but good intentions in that he is setting things the way they should be.

So to call him a good "villain" seems stupid because someone with intentions like that isn't very "villainous". In fact, upon completing the game, you're left to think that perhaps Sephiroth/Jenova was right. Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts. I think Cloud's not concerned with the justification of the humans or any of that. I think he's concerned with stopping a world threatening catastrophe at the moment, and then he'll sit down and figure out the philosophical and moral rights and wrongs after the eminent threat is gone.

I think I recall reading that Sephiroth is biologically the child of Hojo and Lucretia. I do remember something about Hojo messing with him while he was still in the womb. But how does Vincent fit into that scenario? And what about Professor Gast? I know he was this brilliant researcher, but what did he uncover? Or what was he working on? I know it relates to the Cetra, because I seem to remember him being married to Ifalna, whom I seem to remember being Aeris's real mother.

And while I'm getting all FF7 philosophical, I have a few questions that I haven't gotten figured out yet. Did Nibelheim really burn down? If so, why was in totally good shape when you arrive there in the game? And why does no one there recall the event taking place? And if it didn't burn down, then why does Cloud think it did? And why does Tifa think it did? When Cloud tells the story at the Kalm Inn, Tifa doesn't object to it and seems to sit silently as Cloud talks about Sephiroth burning down a city.

So that brings me to my next question. Was Cloud really an experiment? I know he probably got the Mako Treatment like other guys in SOLDIER, even though I think he was never really in SOLDIER. But was he really part of Jenova like Sephiroth was? Did Hojo or whoever actually inject him with Jenova to try and create a superhuman kinda guy? He did go totally crazy when he was with Zack heading to Midgar, when Zack died. I'd think that might be a side effect of the Jenova infusion thing. But that would mean that he didn't really grow up in Nibelheim.

Or maybe he grew up in Nibelheim, left to join SOLDIER, and then they did their weird stuff to him and it made him all crazy.

And why does Cloud think that he was Zack in a lot of his stories? You find out that he was a Shinra guy, but not in SOLDIER. So how did Cloud get to thinking that he was Zack in all those stories?

When Sephiroth, Zack/Cloud and two Shinra guys go to Nibelheim (during the Kalm Inn story), Tifa talks with Cloud during that visit, and even guides them through Mt. Nibel. You learn later that Cloud was there for that visit, but Tifa never knew because he had his helmet and mask on the whole time.

And the Weapons? What's their deal? Are they the planet's self defense mechanism? They come out when someone is messing with the Mako levels and just level the world, Mana Beast style?

And finally, why is it that when you use "Climhazzard" on Palmer (during the fight in Rocket Town), Cloud jams the end of the sword directly into Palmer's crotch before leaping into the air?

So there you have it. All the weird confusing stuff that came to mind. Even after several play-throughs, I still don't get a lot of that stuff.

If you reads what the characters actually say, then you would realize that Sephiroth was not, i repeat WAS NOT, completly human.. Jenova has many powers including transforming and flying. So, when Sephiroth was injected with Jenova Cells before birth, he became part of Jenova.

Sephiroth never died after Cloud dropped on him, his will over Jenova wouldn't allow it causing rapid healing but not complete to make his 'One Winged Angel' form.

The Weapons were a World-self defense monster that was created when Jenova first arrived on the planet.

Sephiroth had complete control over Jenova clone of Sephiroth when u and it were in the ship, temple, City of Ancients, ect.

Cloud thought he was in actually Zacks place (I'd like to know where they say that the guy's name was Zack...people presume too much) because 'the guy' told him the story on their way to Midgar and with the pain plus the Jenova cells combined, caused him to probably to hear differently.

Nibelhiem was atually burnt to a crisp and if you went to Tifa's old room then you'll find a letter which says that only 8 people retuned there and didn't know what happen that it burnt down...

and i think that covers your questions...if u need answers, just ask...

[Christmas]

Weapons are there to give you overpowered items so that you can bring ownage. :bigsmile:

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

[quote=Firo Volondé;2057447]

If there are two Sephiroths, there must also be two Masamunes (the one seen in the Nibelheim and the one used to kill President Shinra and Aerith). How did Jenova Sephiroth obtain the second Masamune?

well the Clone Sephiroth who killed Aerith actually took his sord out from her back....oh man, just thinking of that just makes my back shake

[Bolivar]

I believe, although some claim the ultimania guide states otherwise, that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth, but not in an obvious sense. Essentially she was the force of chaos, or darkness, that, from the background, compels the story's antagonists in different directions, but all towards the same ends, which would result in the destruction of Gaia, or most life on it.

Sephiroth's plan was to move his "clones" (keep in mind this is not the conventional, Western definition of clones) like chess pieces in order to fulfill his goal. From his state of uconsciousness in the Northern Crater, he was able to use "#1" and Cloud (both arriving at midgar at about the same time) primarily to combat Shinra, find the black materia, and deliver it to sephiroth for summoning. Thus, a meteor would threaten Gaia, and the Planets lifestream, and all its energy + knowledge would gather at which point Sephiroth would be the center.

It should be noted that this plan is exactly what happens, even after sephiroth
is defeated, although it takes place at Midgar, not the northern crater.

At this point, sephiroth would basically become one with the planet, at which time this being would be a conscious planetary entity, and we can assume the same 1,000 year storyline would recommence, as it searches for a new planet's lifeforce to consume.

These are obviously Jenova's intentions, and as an actual fetus merged w/ Jenova cells, Sephiroth is, for all purposes, IS Jenova, her will, her child. This is parallel to FFIV's story of zemus controlling Golbez + Kain, or of the sorceress's intentions passing on in VIII

[Ryushikaze]

Except not. The Ultimania guide DOES state otherwise, so no matter how strong your belief, it cannot go against the evidence.

Edit: Correcting a painful typo.

[~Storm Ninja~]

umm... maybe we should call it a day before we get killed by sephiroth mega-fangirls.

[Ryushikaze]

umm... maybe we should call it a day before we get killed by sephiroth mega-fangirls.

I don't see any of those in this thread, yet, and I won't be cowed by the potential for them.

[silentenigma]

I believe, although some claim the ultimania guide states otherwise, that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth, but not in an obvious sense. Essentially she was the force of chaos, or darkness, that, from the background, compels the story's antagonists in different directions, but all towards the same ends, which would result in the destruction of Gaia, or most life on it.
Sephiroth's plan was to move his "clones" (keep in mind this is not the conventional, Western definition of clones) like chess pieces in order to fulfill his goal. From his state of uconsciousness in the Northern Crater, he was able to use "#1" and Cloud (both arriving at midgar at about the same time) primarily to combat Shinra, find the black materia, and deliver it to sephiroth for summoning. Thus, a meteor would threaten Gaia, and the Planets lifestream, and all its energy + knowledge would gather at which point Sephiroth would be the center.

It should be noted that this plan is exactly what happens, even after sephiroth
is defeated, although it takes place at Midgar, not the northern crater.

At this point, sephiroth would basically become one with the planet, at which time this being would be a conscious planetary entity, and we can assume the same 1,000 year storyline would recommence, as it searches for a new planet's lifeforce to consume.

These are obviously Jenova's intentions, and as an actual fetus merged w/ Jenova cells, Sephiroth is, for all purposes, IS Jenova, her will, her child. This is parallel to FFIV's story of zemus controlling Golbez + Kain, or of the sorceress's intentions passing on in VIII

I agree with Bolivar. no matter how "official" the Ultima Omega Guide is, there are tons of evidence throughout the game showing that Jenova is in control. The "official" ruling acutally contradicts the original story.

Think about it: the guide actually changes storyline elements fromt the original game that were as clear as day. For example, Instead of Cloud throwing Sephiroth into the lifestream, they now say that Sephiroth willingly jumped.

SCENES FROM THE GAME SHOULD HAVE PRIORITY OVER A GUIDE MADE YEARS LATER!!


Here is why Jenova is in control, or rather, controlling Sephiroth to control her cells, which are scattered throught the world:

2000 years ago, Jenova came crashing down from outer space, already succesfully destroying other planets. It just sat around, waiting for a human to infect. Along with giving the person super-human abilities, Jenova would infect the mind of the human in order for him to accomplish her will.

All she needed was someone with a weak ego, someone who's memories would be easy to let go of (if there are any pre-infected memories at all.)

A little more than 20 years ago, Professor Gast found Jenova and mislabeled her as an ancient. When he died, he left a plethora of documents stating that she was an ancient.

Hojo, a careless lunatic/biologist, took over the Jenova project. He got Lucricia pregnant and injected Jenova cells and mako into the developing fetus. The baby, Sephiroth, had Jenova in him from birth.


Fast forward to the Nibelheim incident 5 years ago.

Sephiroth, along with two uninfected members Zack(who only had mako) and Cloud, went to the Reactor at Nibelheim where Jenova was being stored. After finding that his "mother", Jenova, was a monster and that he was "created," he became emotionally unstable. He didn't know he also had an earthly mother, Lucricia. He retreated to the basement of the Shinra Mansion and read Gast's false documents of Jenova being an ancient. Filled with self doubt (then overconfidence as a compensation), the Jenova in him began to take over his mind untill she caused him to destroy the city, then take take her head to the lifestream.

Cloud, Tifa, and Zack tried to kill Sephiroth. Zack and Tifa were wounded by the time Cloud came on the scene, and after being stabbed himself Cloud threw Sephiroth into the lifestream. Unbeknownst to Cloud, this was only Jenova's will anyway.

The true Sephiroth does not die at this time (Jenova isn't very suseptible to death), but he travels the lifestream gaining the ancients' knowledge in order to find a way to destory the planet for Jenova. He isn't seen again until Disk Two when Cloud hands him the Black Materia.

Now Cloud and Zack, critically wounded by Sephiroth, were quickely taken in by Hojo while they were unconcious. Like other clone projects at the time, they were injected with Jenova cells (this restored their vitality). The two eventually escaped. Zack, who had strong feelings and memories, was not affected by the Jenova in him. Cloud, on the other hand, had a weaker ego and was affected.

Although Cloud's ego was weak, it wasn't weak enough (like Sephiroth's) for Jenova to control him all the time; He could only be manipulated while he was within a close distance from Jenova or during a situation in which he was unsure of himself.

It is Jenova, not Sephiroth, that causes Cloud to do all the bad things he does, mostly regarding the Black Materia.

THEREFORE: Cloud and Sephiroth were not so different. Sephiroth was just mentally weak enough for Jenova to use him to do more damage. Cloud was not as weak and couldn't be controlled as often. Besides, to say that Jenova isn't in charge makes the part she plays in the story dwindle to insignificance.

edit: Regarding Sephiroth's will to be a God, this was just a superficial goal planted into his mind to further her manipulation on him.

[~Storm Ninja~]

I really don't even know anymore.

[jammi567]

Have you read this guide: http://uk.faqs.ign.com/articles/657/657331p1.html

[Ryushikaze]

-snip-

To sum up "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

Official SE products in a position of authority trump how you wish it was. Deal with it.

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

I believe, although some claim the ultimania guide states otherwise, that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth, but not in an obvious sense. Essentially she was the force of chaos, or darkness, that, from the background, compels the story's antagonists in different directions, but all towards the same ends, which would result in the destruction of Gaia, or most life on it.
Sephiroth's plan was to move his "clones" (keep in mind this is not the conventional, Western definition of clones) like chess pieces in order to fulfill his goal. From his state of uconsciousness in the Northern Crater, he was able to use "#1" and Cloud (both arriving at midgar at about the same time) primarily to combat Shinra, find the black materia, and deliver it to sephiroth for summoning. Thus, a meteor would threaten Gaia, and the Planets lifestream, and all its energy + knowledge would gather at which point Sephiroth would be the center.

It should be noted that this plan is exactly what happens, even after sephiroth
is defeated, although it takes place at Midgar, not the northern crater.

At this point, sephiroth would basically become one with the planet, at which time this being would be a conscious planetary entity, and we can assume the same 1,000 year storyline would recommence, as it searches for a new planet's lifeforce to consume.

These are obviously Jenova's intentions, and as an actual fetus merged w/ Jenova cells, Sephiroth is, for all purposes, IS Jenova, her will, her child. This is parallel to FFIV's story of zemus controlling Golbez + Kain, or of the sorceress's intentions passing on in VIII

I agree with Bolivar. no matter how "official" the Ultima Omega Guide is, there are tons of evidence throughout the game showing that Jenova is in control. The "official" ruling acutally contradicts the original story.

Think about it: the guide actually changes storyline elements fromt the original game that were as clear as day. For example, Instead of Cloud throwing Sephiroth into the lifestream, they now say that Sephiroth willingly jumped.

SCENES FROM THE GAME SHOULD HAVE PRIORITY OVER A GUIDE MADE YEARS LATER!!


Here is why Jenova is in control, or rather, controlling Sephiroth to control her cells, which are scattered throught the world:

2000 years ago, Jenova came crashing down from outer space, already succesfully destroying other planets. It just sat around, waiting for a human to infect. Along with giving the person super-human abilities, Jenova would infect the mind of the human in order for him to accomplish her will.

All she needed was someone with a weak ego, someone who's memories would be easy to let go of (if there are any pre-infected memories at all.)

A little more than 20 years ago, Professor Gast found Jenova and mislabeled her as an ancient. When he died, he left a plethora of documents stating that she was an ancient.

Hojo, a careless lunatic/biologist, took over the Jenova project. He got Lucricia pregnant and injected Jenova cells and mako into the developing fetus. The baby, Sephiroth, had Jenova in him from birth.


Fast forward to the Nibelheim incident 5 years ago.

Sephiroth, along with two uninfected members Zack(who only had mako) and Cloud, went to the Reactor at Nibelheim where Jenova was being stored. After finding that his "mother", Jenova, was a monster and that he was "created," he became emotionally unstable. He didn't know he also had an earthly mother, Lucricia. He retreated to the basement of the Shinra Mansion and read Gast's false documents of Jenova being an ancient. Filled with self doubt (then overconfidence as a compensation), the Jenova in him began to take over his mind untill she caused him to destroy the city, then take take her head to the lifestream.

Cloud, Tifa, and Zack tried to kill Sephiroth. Zack and Tifa were wounded by the time Cloud came on the scene, and after being stabbed himself Cloud threw Sephiroth into the lifestream. Unbeknownst to Cloud, this was only Jenova's will anyway.

The true Sephiroth does not die at this time (Jenova isn't very suseptible to death), but he travels the lifestream gaining the ancients' knowledge in order to find a way to destory the planet for Jenova. He isn't seen again until Disk Two when Cloud hands him the Black Materia.

Now Cloud and Zack, critically wounded by Sephiroth, were quickely taken in by Hojo while they were unconcious. Like other clone projects at the time, they were injected with Jenova cells (this restored their vitality). The two eventually escaped. Zack, who had strong feelings and memories, was not affected by the Jenova in him. Cloud, on the other hand, had a weaker ego and was affected.

Although Cloud's ego was weak, it wasn't weak enough (like Sephiroth's) for Jenova to control him all the time; He could only be manipulated while he was within a close distance from Jenova or during a situation in which he was unsure of himself.

It is Jenova, not Sephiroth, that causes Cloud to do all the bad things he does, mostly regarding the Black Materia.

THEREFORE: Cloud and Sephiroth were not so different. Sephiroth was just mentally weak enough for Jenova to use him to do more damage. Cloud was not as weak and couldn't be controlled as often. Besides, to say that Jenova isn't in charge makes the part she plays in the story dwindle to insignificance.

edit: Regarding Sephiroth's will to be a God, this was just a superficial goal planted into his mind to further her manipulation on him.

Sorry, but I don't care what you say, Sephiroth was in complete control. Heck IF Jenova had control him, then it (I say it because it is able to transform) would be saying it was Jenova in the first place. It's like a wake up call," Hello Cloud, I am Jenova in control not this weak minded pawn."

Edit: And what the heck is this person who typed this saying...Sephiroth being more weak mined than Cloud? Heck no... I say since Sephiroth had grown up with all these powers, he was able to manipulate his ablilties and Jenova slowly but I think the reason why Jenova was probably put in is to explainthe Sephiroth copies and why Sephiroth has those powers. so other than that, Jenova would be Insignificance.

[jammi567]

Exactly. in fact, if i had to disregard a source, then it would have to Last Order. Now that had so many controdictions to the main game, it was unbelieveable!

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

To sum up "I reject your reality and substitute my own."


I like that saying, and there I agree with you.:choc2:

[Ryushikaze]

Exactly. in fact, if i had to disregard a source, then it would have to Last Order. Now that had so many controdictions to the main game, it was unbelieveable!

Except the purpose of Last Order was to clarify the events of the game. And, having a third person omniscient perspective, and not suffering from the error of human memory, overrides Cloud Memories.
Nevermind that it specifically retcons the game, and so takes precedence.

[The Crystal]

Exactly. in fact, if i had to disregard a source, then it would have to Last Order. Now that had so many controdictions to the main game, it was unbelieveable!

Except the purpose of Last Order was to clarify the events of the game. And, having a third person omniscient perspective, and not suffering from the error of human memory, overrides Cloud Memories.
Nevermind that it specifically retcons the game, and so takes precedence.

Yeah, and the same retcons happens in Before Crisis too.

[jammi567]

what, that Zack actually fought Sephiroth for nearly a full minute, and that he (Sephiroth) was willing to jump into the lifestream?

[The Crystal]

what, that Zack actually fought Sephiroth for nearly a full minute, and that he (Sephiroth) was willing to jump into the lifestream?

Yes, in BC Sephiroth jumped in the Lifestream too.

[jammi567]

but in the game, Sephiroth fell in rom Cloud pushing the sword out of his shoulder.

[The Crystal]

but in the game, Sephiroth fell in rom Cloud pushing the sword out of his shoulder.

But this scene is not cannon anymore. SE changed it in LO and BC, meaning that Cloud never threw him in the Lifestream. If CC show the Nibelheim incident, Cloud will throw Sephiroth in a wall and then he will jump in the Lifestream. If SE remake the original game, in the scene that Cloud remember everything(Lifestream in Mideel), we will see Sephiroth being threw against a wall and jumping in the Lifestream.
This is what really happened, because SE replaced the old cannon information, with another one. This is what we call a "retconn". Forget what you saw in FFVII, because that never happened.

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

but in the game, Sephiroth fell in rom Cloud pushing the sword out of his shoulder.

But this scene is not cannon anymore. SE changed it in LO and BC, meaning that Cloud never threw him in the Lifestream. If CC show the Nibelheim incident, Cloud will throw Sephiroth in a wall and then he will jump in the Lifestream. If SE remake the original game, in the scene that Cloud remember everything(Lifestream in Mideel), we will see Sephiroth being threw against a wall and jumping in the Lifestream.
This is what really happened, because SE replaced the old cannon information, with another one. This is what we call a "retconn". Forget what you saw in FFVII, because that never happened.


I agree with the bottom part...IT NEVER HAPPENED AND I SAY AGAIN, SEPHIROTH WAS IN CONTROL... A LOT OF FACT PROVE IT...EVEN THE GAME ITSELF SAYS AND PROVES IT

[Goldenboko]

but in the game, Sephiroth fell in rom Cloud pushing the sword out of his shoulder.

But this scene is not cannon anymore. SE changed it in LO and BC, meaning that Cloud never threw him in the Lifestream. If CC show the Nibelheim incident, Cloud will throw Sephiroth in a wall and then he will jump in the Lifestream. If SE remake the original game, in the scene that Cloud remember everything(Lifestream in Mideel), we will see Sephiroth being threw against a wall and jumping in the Lifestream.
This is what really happened, because SE replaced the old cannon information, with another one. This is what we call a "retconn". Forget what you saw in FFVII, because that never happened.

You do realize they mainly did this because they wanted to appease the crazyed Seph fans who couldn't deal with their prized Seph being beat up by little old Cloud.

[Ryushikaze]

but in the game, Sephiroth fell in rom Cloud pushing the sword out of his shoulder.

But this scene is not cannon anymore. SE changed it in LO and BC, meaning that Cloud never threw him in the Lifestream. If CC show the Nibelheim incident, Cloud will throw Sephiroth in a wall and then he will jump in the Lifestream. If SE remake the original game, in the scene that Cloud remember everything(Lifestream in Mideel), we will see Sephiroth being threw against a wall and jumping in the Lifestream.
This is what really happened, because SE replaced the old cannon information, with another one. This is what we call a "retconn". Forget what you saw in FFVII, because that never happened.

You do realize they mainly did this because they wanted to appease the crazyed Seph fans who couldn't deal with their prized Seph being beat up by little old Cloud.

An appeal to motive AND irrelevant to the canonicity of the scene.

[jammi567]

Yep.

I wish they had just left it at vii.

[silentenigma]

SEPHIROTH WAS IN CONTROL... A LOT OF FACT PROVE IT...EVEN THE GAME ITSELF SAYS AND PROVES IT

Enlighten Me. Give me this "evidence" from the game. THE GAME. Not any spinnoffs or guides written years later by those who barely had anything to do with the writing of the original story.

I'll be open-minded when you give me this evidence, but your excuses saying that the "the [fanboy-pleasing] ultima-omega guide said so" is not enough.


Technically, Square didn't make the guide. A third party made it and had Square publish it because otherwise they couldn't use the name Final Fantasy...

This means that a THIRD PARTY paid SQUARE-ENIX big bucks to get the "official" final fantasy name on their product. SQUARE-ENIX wouldn't care what they wrote in their strategy guide so long as it would be successful.

How "official" is the guide now?

I remember reading every story-related FAQ about FFVII before Advent Children was even in production and they all pointed to JENOVA as the driving force behind Sephiroth's evilness. These were written by very intelligent people who backed their statements by events in the GAME.


Sorry, but I don't care what you say, Sephiroth was in complete control. Heck IF Jenova had control him, then it (I say it because it is able to transform) would be saying it was Jenova in the first place. It's like a wake up call," Hello Cloud, I am Jenova in control not this weak minded pawn."


Ah, but she did. Many times. Too bad Cloud didn't smell the coffee.

And Sephiroth WAS weak-minded. Ever notice how people without Jenova in them don't go crazy? Sephiroth had Jenova in him from before birth, so he was even more suseptible to becoming Jenova's puppet.




I think the reason why Jenova was probably put in is to explainthe Sephiroth copies and why Sephiroth has those powers. so other than that, Jenova would be Insignificance.

You obviously haven't seen the videotapes of Prof. Gast talking to Ifalna at Icicle Inn. in the game. Although they are obscure, they reveal why Jenova is so damn important.

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

SEPHIROTH WAS IN CONTROL... A LOT OF FACT PROVE IT...EVEN THE GAME ITSELF SAYS AND PROVES IT

Enlighten Me. Give me this "evidence" from the game. THE GAME. Not any spinnoffs or guides written years later by those who barely had anything to do with the writing of the original story.

I'll be open-minded when you give me this evidence, but your excuses saying that the "the [fanboy-pleasing] ultima-omega guide said so" is not enough.


Technically, Square didn't make the guide. A third party made it and had Square publish it because otherwise they couldn't use the name Final Fantasy...

This means that a THIRD PARTY paid SQUARE-ENIX big bucks to get the "official" final fantasy name on their product. SQUARE-ENIX wouldn't care what they wrote in their strategy guide so long as it would be successful.

How "official" is the guide now?

I remember reading every story-related FAQ about FFVII before Advent Children was even in production and they all pointed to JENOVA as the driving force behind Sephiroth's evilness. These were written by very intelligent people who backed their statements by events in the GAME.

Think on how I put it on my Prove it!! thread: "Come one people! Sephiroth is the villian..SEPHIROTH!!! Jenova was helping Sephiroth with his powers..they were his source... just like Superman and the Sun..the Sun was the source of Supermans power but was NOT the hero other wise he and the other Kryptonians couldn't do their thing. So, Jenova was was just like Sephiroth's Sun so that analogy is good right?"

[silentenigma]

I made some edit's; didn't know other posts had been made before them.





Sorry, but I don't care what you say, Sephiroth was in complete control. Heck IF Jenova had control him, then it (I say it because it is able to transform) would be saying it was Jenova in the first place. It's like a wake up call," Hello Cloud, I am Jenova in control not this weak minded pawn."


Ah, but she did. Many times. Too bad Cloud didn't smell the coffee.

And Sephiroth WAS weak-minded. Ever notice how people without Jenova in them don't go crazy? Sephiroth had Jenova in him from before birth, so he was even more suseptible to becoming Jenova's puppet.




I think the reason why Jenova was probably put in is to explainthe Sephiroth copies and why Sephiroth has those powers. so other than that, Jenova would be Insignificance.

You obviously haven't seen the videotapes of Prof. Gast talking to Ifalna at Icicle Inn. in the game. Although they are obscure, they reveal why Jenova is so damn important.

By the way, I'm still not enlightened as I have not read any evidence that has been supported by specific parts of the game.

I'm sorry for being an ass, but that's the way it is.

edit: oh by the way, I'm moving my arguement over to that other thread.