I recognize canon, though I sometimes don't agree with it, but I won't argue when the story follows it though I'll likely complain. I think what bothers me more about the FFVIII theorist is not necessarily they're insistence of being right over what's stated, but their failure to see how their pet theory creates more problems for the story than what it's suppose to fix. I can agree with them that R=U takes a really flat character like Ultimecia and makes her 100x more interesting, but I can't look past the fact that such a story beat runs completely counter to what we see in the game proper. I need that logical consistency to enjoy a piece of work and when the information presented either runs counter to what we're being told or simply lacks too much information for there to be a feasible leap in logic as the writer asks, I get a little annoyed. Generally, how I deal with them is simply pointing out how their pet theory creates more problems in the narrative than fixes, and watching them try to methodically piece it all together can sometimes be entertaining but usually just ends in their frustration. As for communication, that's a kind of a loaded subject that may derail us even farther. Linguistics has never been my strong suit, and most people would agree I lack any strong interpersonal communication skills.
That does not work for me and does not make much sense. I mean, it is not like its the first time I have talked with people about this but this is all communication. Communication is defined to contain a disturbance when both instances do not get the intended result along. You surely will not be okay with asking a person "Can you tell me what time it is?" and then hear the guy saying "Yes" while he is walking away. But according to this logic you should be okay with it because he what he understand was a perfectly legitimate way to understand your question and respond to it while we know your intention and context overrides his legit reaction as you were the sender and did not get what you wanted, meaning the communication resulted in failure. Things do not have the same value and not everything is right. This way of thinking "There is the truth: A certain truth about topic x exists" standing against "There is the truth: There is no certain truth for topic x because everything is of equal truthful value, everything you say matters" is something I have a problem with. IF their are different contextes allowing truths to exist within those specific context, that is fine. That is absolutely correct and possible. But that is not always the case. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. REGARDLESS of that, I can work a lot more with people like you because you very well acknowledge the fact that there is something official to acknowledge with a totally different weight. What I also can agree with: If people acknowledge the message but simply to not agree with the message. So its not the say "that is not the message" but instead "yes, the message is x but I do not agree with what wants to teach us" (for example). To elaborate further on this: Nier 1 is my second favourite piece of fiction. And it is full of messages about lifeforms. I am fully aware of WHAT it says, but I do not agree with the position itself. So I am not denying what the story says, I am not insane enough to say "well, the story actually say this because I interpreted it like that", no, I am aware of what it wanted to say but it just does not reflect my position about life. Unfortunatey I get the feeling that most people go beyond that and actually try to say "no, THIS other thing that I understood is the message" instead of knowing what the message is and thinking about if they can agree with it or not. You used FFVIII as good example. There are various weird people in this forum that follow exactly those theories. But they reek of double standard. They call official answers bulltrout but insist on their own. Well ... but then those guys are practically even worse because they do not just insist on their "thing" to be a valid explanation but even act like the official one is less worth. And that is something that is so hypocritical that I cannot get along with them. I already have a problem with people trying to sell their interpretations that flat out ignore official explanations and elements established within a story but those people that I just mentioned are even worse. One thing for example would be: There are many new KHIII videos on youtube now with people saying how much of the game and the series did not make sense. What do other people do? Try to sell their pseudo-explanations as truth. One tried to convince me, called me naive and denying - and you know me at least that much to know I cannot let go of such a thing - and came on with his stupid wannabe-explanations about stuff like Xion which flat out made no sense and what he "tried to explain me" was even stuff that I acknowledged in the storytelling (because I acknowledge everything given within narration) which was also noticable from my posts furthermore emphasizing how ironic his post was as he obviously did not really acknowledge what I wrote. It is a very predictable behaviour of people. And I cannot handle such behaviour. If I want to have pseudo-explanations I give them to myself and they are surely more cohesive because my neurotical disorder does not even allow me to leave out something within the equation. Just because person #244353452436 approaches you claiming something is the truth when it flat out is not because that is not what happened or it is "the truth" which you do not even deny but that person does not get why it is inconsistent and does not make sense - just because such a person does approach your again does not make it any better. It just gets on your nerves. These things beig said I actually enjoy we can have a normal conversation. In this forum only Psy knows how I am and why.
I wouldn't say coming up with your answers to a story concept, even if it runs counter to the official explanation is void of value. Perhaps in discussion of the subject itself of course, but coming to ones own conclusion or utilizing someone else's ideas for you own is in many ways the basis of art itself. I mean Disney itself has made most of their success based on remixing classic fairy tales and stories which are hardly close to the original if we were to say they are the truth. I can say I prefer my interpretation of what is really happening to Riku and Ansem, and while it will not get me far in a KH discussion out side of a "that sounds like a better idea" or "that's awful, I prefer the official explanation" I can still always take my own version and utilize it for something more personal and original. So I wouldn't say it doesn't merit any value to edit and write your own conclusions to official works. In the case of works where there are plotholes and inconsistencies, I feel the author obviously doesn't know or doesn't care enough to give proper answers, at which point they forfeit their right to complain about how fans see it. I mean if they didn't care enough to give a proper answer, then why should they be bothered when others misconstrue the meaning of the piece. The value of a work, regardless of whether it's artistic or not, really comes from those who care about it. There is always the author's view of a work, but it coincides with the public reaction and the way they see it as well. One simply has to look at Alan Moore's Watchemn series in the 80s to see what I mean, because while he's been pretty candid about the purpose of the work, the misinterpretation of it created a whole era of Comic Books that we still feel the impact of today. I mean I know he kind of looks back on it now and wishes he never wrote the piece, but objectively speaking, I feel the fact his work inspired so many, even though they missed the actual point of the story, grants it greater value than had everyone simply came to the same conclusion and moved on from it. On the rare occasion I let anyone read my writings, I'm not necessarily as concerned about people getting my message or idea across, of anything I find the wild speculation more interesting. My current comic book project had a moment where I was talking to my artist friend about one of the characters to give her an idea who they are so she could draw them, and she jumped to an odd conclusion about the nature of this figure that I didn't even think about. I liked her idea enough that I actually rewrote his entire scenario to fit into this new interpretation because it was more interesting than what I was planning, and I feel the work is now much richer for it. So regardless of intention, I feel that for the sake of creativity, it's better to look at a work subjectively rather than objectively. If ones opinion happens to coincide with the official explanation, that's perfectly fine, but coming to ones own conclusion is not wrong either as long as the logic is sound. I mean, I don't like the R=U or "Squall is Dead" theories, largely because they're off base from what we see in the official work, but I would agree with it's advocates that the theories are interesting and still consistently provide a means to come back to VIII and really delve into the story, characters, and message. I myself have gained a far greater understanding of VIII's story simply arguing with the people who propose these theories. So even for people who staunchly adhere to the official version can often gain some new insight into a work they love by indulging in fan speculation and trying to set them right.
The only saving grace is "gladly I am biased and the fairytale makes my 11-year old self happy". Also if you only see it as "your version" then there is no real meaning behind trying to convince somebody of it. It would also render what you did a waste of your own time except if you did not actually want to convince me but only said that stuff to tell me your feelings of how to cope with these aircraft-sized plotholes.
As for my feelings on his continual existence, I feel that my uncertainty comes mostly from the fact I prefer the idea he was metaphorically still with Riku as opposed to actually being there, even though the latter is the canon explanation of what's going on. - Your idea requires a lot of mental gymnastics and disregarding information though. I do not see how that is of any help. Kingdom Hearts itself already disregards its own things and that is also not good. Kingdom Hearts own mythos seems to be moving in the direction that a person is the sum of their parts. - Kingdom Hearts definitely established that the essence of the entity is its ... *drums* hearts and with it the perceptional instance and it very admirably followed that concept earlier with emphasis mainly on that. It was also very easily seen in situations like when Xehanort overtook Terra's body with the transfer of his heart. And that is only the tip of the iceberg. It is not my view which I project, it is axiom level psychology. The instance to perceive reality is the most important instance when it comes to the dynamics of personality and in case of a personal entity it is not just the "consciousness" but also called the "Ego" as of course we have a sense of self. Sora perceived his fall into darkness. Not how he met Xemnas. Because the essence was formerly not estabished to be the Nobody. Same for Xehanort, Scar and all the others. Xemnas also puts emphasis on that ALL Heartless still contain the "Self" because he says they creates Heartless to experiment how to seperate those from the Self. KH became whacky but it still did a very good job following their concepts. Until now. I somehow get the feeling you are trying to tell me some stuff about the lore but I am aware of the lore. All of it that has to co-exist and co-relate. That is the very problem. As for communication issues, I think it may stem from both of us just having very different way of viewing things. You strike me, and forgive me I'm off-based here, as someone who is very literal and just the facts. Whereas I'm the type of person who can't accept things at face value and I try to find other meanings or perspectives to look at things. Unfortunately, that means I tend to repeat things that are understood because I'm both trying to make clear we're on the same page, but I'm also constantly mulling over the information to see if there is something I missed or a different angle I can see it in. That's not to say I feel everything has subtext and other meanings, but things that don't rarely hold my attention. You said you preferred concrete answers and official explanantions, but I honestly prefer speculation. Sadly, I'm not sure if you'll rectify these inconsistencies within the story of KH because as you know, Nomura purposely leaves gaps in explanations because he thinks it's fun for fans to speculate on the matter. So you may never get an official explanation and have to rely on your own conclusions instead. - People always say that but this is an alien concept to me. Of course I am a fact-based person. That does not mean just face-value though. It means context-specific information and yes, it also requires turning stones around more than once to see everything, that is the very reason why I can even get all the information to evaluate. I am a scientist. That does not mean I have no romantic side with a sense for magic. As a matter of fact I am a very spiritualistic person but everything belongs to its time and place. It sounds less like you want to "investigate more" but more like you just want to go for what you like more which seems supported by comments like you preferring things you say over canonical (adjective) explanations. What good does it do for one to once you decide you do not want to follow a concept or do not have enough of a concept to suddenly make up your own stuff? It is void of any value. It will never be the truth. It results in a paradox if all fans are right with their explanation - which they do not even have the decisive power to be. If that is the way we might as well throw the stories out of the window and write our own completely from scratch. It is also why Quantic Dream games are very hard to digest for me even though I enjoy their narrative. But I need a set a path. "You are all winners, don't worry, none of you lost, none of you was wrong" is not an answer. For every context their is a context-specific answer to be sought after. If an authoritive instance does not use his power to create an answer that is of consistency and it gets large-scaled as in KH then this is torture.
I simply use the term "revived" because writing out "time traveled Ansem from KH1" is too cumbersome, it's also why I put it in quotation because we both understand it's not a real revival. As for my feelings on his continual existence, I feel that my uncertainty comes mostly from the fact I prefer the idea he was metaphorically still with Riku as opposed to actually being there, even though the latter is the canon explanation of what's going on. I prefer the former idea because I feel it adds to Riku's character more. Like he personified his own darkness as the being who took advantage of him and when he tapped into that power to beat Roxas, he took his form because Riku loathes and envy's his power sounds more interesting and adds some interesting layers to who Riku is from a character building perspective than to simply say it's actual just Ansem because he body snatched him and now they're forever connected so even if Ansem is destroyed, his will forever lives on within him. None of which I feel has been helped by kind of how hands off that whole plot thread became after CoM. In hindsight, I wonder if it was meant to have more to it in KHII or 358/2 and was simply cut for time? Something to ponder I guess. I accept the official explanation, but I don't agree with it being the best choice. As for the issue regarding the nature of Ansem's being, I'm not sure I would say his consciousness of being within Riku is completely him, though mostly because for my own World View and to a lesser extent, Kingdom Hearts own mythos seems to be moving in the direction that a person is the sum of their parts. So even though his consciousness lives on within Riku, the destruction of his temporal form in KH1 may have been enough to fulfill the requirements Xehanort needed. My point is, you may be projecting your own concept of being on this matter which is creating the inconsistency. Though it also seems I'm trying to deduce a solution without all the facts since I haven't played KHIII yet and I'm likely missing something very important. Your explanation is insufficient because you're trying your best not to spoil it for me which is causing this discussion to go in circles. So yeah, we'll probably have to get back to this once I have all the facts so we can talk more directly on the problem. As for communication issues, I think it may stem from both of us just having very different way of viewing things. You strike me, and forgive me I'm off-based here, as someone who is very literal and just the facts. Whereas I'm the type of person who can't accept things at face value and I try to find other meanings or perspectives to look at things. Unfortunately, that means I tend to repeat things that are understood because I'm both trying to make clear we're on the same page, but I'm also constantly mulling over the information to see if there is something I missed or a different angle I can see it in. That's not to say I feel everything has subtext and other meanings, but things that don't rarely hold my attention. You said you preferred concrete answers and official explanantions, but I honestly prefer speculation. Sadly, I'm not sure if you'll rectify these inconsistencies within the story of KH because as you know, Nomura purposely leaves gaps in explanations because he thinks it's fun for fans to speculate on the matter. So you may never get an official explanation and have to rely on your own conclusions instead. If it's almost a thousand pages though, it may take me a while to get through the whole dissertation.
Let's continue that once I post my 999 pages treatment. Tell me when you are done with KHIII.
Urgh, using Wiki for a Square game. There is am LOT of inconsistency regarding the guardian because it does not JUST require Ansem's power, as well as Ansem's existence is as mentioned full of narrative inconsistencies that one time say this and one time say that as he cannot be "gone" after KH2 since Riku flat out tells him in 3D as well as 3D at the same time not being the Ansem because there was not "revival" - which in itself is one of the problems (I would not even spoil you much because you know 3D and also know that the Ansem is supposed to have been time travelled but that is the problem; one thing implies it is "the present Ansem" and the next shows that it is not present Ansem blablablabla with one important KHIII scene again treating him like our Ansem - and the worst thing of all for me as I said earlier is that whenever he was actually killed it was not shown (talking about things excluding KHIII again)). And if you ask me it is VERY MUCH of a problem because it not only spits on the narrative when it comes to important characters but you also once more ignore what is there needed for the proper reunion (and one can hardly argue that his ego and his heart which is simply what he is was gone because that is what I was saying when I said he still lived on through Riku's help so establishing that everything important for Xehanort was destroyed would require an extra official explanation that once more would ignore rules but then they could at least say "well, Ansem was destroyed; he still existed but even though he still was there it was kinda enough for Xehanort even though he was literally missing his own original heart and let's just ignore the fact that not only Xehanort gets his own old body but also had a reset of his memories even though he had no idea about anything after BBS". I have no problem with Ansem "existing somehow as his own entity" as one sentence in KHIII COULD actually if they would have done something with it make this "pseudo-work" but it would still have the problem of Xehanort's consciousness and heart in his reunited body existing making one of them effectively a clone. Which is by the way another problem I have with the Heartless and Nobody stuff as both Heartless and Nobody are treated like "the person just incomplete" with KHII always treating the Nobody more like the person in a metaphorical sense. KHIII makes it exactly the other way around, which also makes no sense. But I will also elaborate on that in my treatment. Btw. Ansem just got his body destroyed in KH1 which you describe as "firmly established". But the body is not all. As said, I do not interpret anything here. Otherwise I would have given myself all the answers here with the officially established stuff. But the problem here is I cannot tell you everything as you see and you know, neurotical and accurate as I am, I need my non-contradictiory, consistent and official things instead of "gäkdgöfjsglögjkrelksj okay, this is Kingdom Hearts". Non-speculative. I do also not really understand why you are not actually seeing how Ansem's living consciousness is still in Riku, not just something as reduced as you say he is. If he is his living consciousness, he is there. That is what we existentially are. if that is here, the instance to perceive reality and the sense of self, then the actually important thing for an entity's existence is given and we have that. If he says he will come back, that says enough about a person, its instance to perceive reality and itself, its intentions and that it in fact is not just some echo. He thinks, perceives, plans and acts. He tortures Riku, he wants to comes back (as in physically), he knows what is going on. Some parts of what you say do even read like you do not mean that anymore but others read different. It seems like you are kinda on the fence on what you mean with it. Maybe I wrote too much for you in my last two posts and that confused you. You have to tell me that if that is the case. I always write the entire thing I want to say so people have the information needed (or in this case, minus the spoiler) but very often they then bring up something I have already answered, no matter what we are talking about. If that is a moment of "geez, I cannot process that much at once, we need to talk slower about this" then you have to mention it. I lost a lot of people in conversations because of them not being able or unwilling to take EVERYTHING into consideration. I would like to say "I need to work on that" but I do that on purpose so people do not need to mention stuff I already know. There is a lot more in your post I cannot spoil right now.
Well, after reading an overview of Ansem from the Wiki, minus the KHIII stuff that will likely joss my own interpretation of the solution to this dilemma, it seems that Ansem is in fact attached to Riku up until the events of KHII when the real Ansem's Data Encorder blows up and finally destroys the last bit of him within Riku's heart. Since it is technically him and he embraced his power to beat Roxas, there isn't really an inconsistency with Riku using the Guardian's power in the battle with Roxas and KHII since he would be literally channeling the Heartless Ansem, that is of course assuming KHIII doesn't change this. As usual of any story, the moment you introduce Time Travel, the plot gets really screwy, not helped by the fact that being associated with Disney, "death" doesn't seem to really exist in KH or at least not the way we know it in real life. So the whole "Ansem exists because Riku carries a part of him through memory" doesn't feel far fetched, especially when you consider Xion's own existence still somehow persists despite 358/2 saying her entire existence is gone. I feel the issue here is simply that Heartless Ansem's temporal form is destroyed in KH1, and while a part of him lingers due to his connection to Riku, the important part of him that was directly linked to Xehanort was destroyed which allowed for Xehanort to revive based on the rules of Heartless/Nobodies established in coded and 3D. Yet since a part of his essence has been connected to Riku, he could still know about the events he physically didn't exist in because of that connection. I don't necessarily feel there is as much of a problem here because KH1 firmly establishes that Ansem's temporal existence was destroyed in KH1, and while he lingered within Riku's heart because of their connection, he was eventually snuffed out by Riku's strong heart and some poorly explained sci-fi mumbo jumbo in KHII, before Ansem was "revived" by time paradox in 3D. Yet due the franchise's cosmology concerning the heart and the power of bonds and connections, Ansem is able to still perceive all the events that transpired after his temporal demise because a person can never be truly destroyed within the series setting as established by characters like Roxas, Namine, and most damning of all, Xion. So I feel that Ansem did "die" in the fact that his existence was reduced to a point where he could no longer influence the story or world outside of being a reminder to Riku of the darkness within, but then he was brought back in 3D by poorly defined time travel that ignores causality, complicated by the rules concerning hearts and bonds in the series that are kind of left up to interpretation but seem to largely state that such bonds transcend reality and physical laws as we know it. I remember in the interview I linked earlier, that Nomura mentions that when Ventus meets Sora for the first time, technically it was meant to happen before Sora was born meaning Sora existed in some capacity before his eventual birth, but they downplayed it in the English adaption due to being overly sensitive to the ongoing debate in the U.S. about the subject of when life begins. Still, this sort of points out that a being within this universe always exists in some capacity whether they are killed, retgone, or even unborn. It's also established that the bonds and connections made between people pretty much transcends logical physical laws and states of being, so to me it's not far fetched that a past version of Ansem, through these connections holding on by Riku, could be aware of things that happened while he was dead as if he was there all along. So I'm not sure if there is a real inconsistency here as much as it's an issue of the metaphysics of the game are muddled, unclear, and steeply entrenched in Zen Buddhism. Again, I am working here with no real knowledge of KHIII, so there is likely a complication here that I'm ignorant of that josses this whole interpretation.
Riku in 3D has this half-assed dialogue with Ansem that is from the past and continues to talk to him like he is THE Ansem that is living in his heart, "blah, I locked you away, yet here you are", "Ansem, you are a part of my heart now!" and of course that is kinda rendered void through the very fact that KH3 ultimately shows that all of those guys were travelling through time but it still drives home the point of Ansem still being fused with Riku. I cannot say how "alive" he still is in 3D (and I have the feeling that Nomura-san practically only wanted to act like "oh this guy is the same" even though he literally is not but several things that I cannot tell you right now are telling me he thinks "as long as we have a character looking like that its fine, he's the same") but the stuff from before is just to much to be "anthropomorphic darkness that has no consciousness of a person". And I assure you 100% that it was not just "no living conscious instance of Ansem". As a matter of fact Ansem in KH3 says something to Riku that absolutely shows that the Ansem in Riku was alive. It kinda still makes no sense that then out of all people the one in KH3 says it but well, as said, KH is an inconsistency fest. Anyway - it would have even been better for the narrative if that was actually THE Ansem but seeing how Nomura-san does not care he probably really thinks that even though it is logically not the case, it might still be THE Ansem. To quote a person in a KH3D guide when he said "Xehanort can move back in time so he moves faster than light ... or negative speed ..." and that is what I actually am talking about what followed up: "... whatever." "Whatever" is really the only thing I can think at this point about WHATEVER topic regarding KH". Not the faster than light or negative speed thing, by the way. That is nonsense. I just liked his "... whatever". And the Xehanort from the picture is from the movie I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry with Kevin James and Adam Sandler. For 10 years I always say "That's Xehanort!"
