Going back to Type-0, it is obvious that Rem and Machina were meant to be the game's core emotional anchor, but I can see you had the same reaction I did for them. Class Zero doesn't really ever get the characterization it deserved but the normal ending still manages to give them an emotional pull. Granted, I liked the Class's no nonsense pragmatic outlook on life, which starts to become even more apparent when you do Expert Trials and the Crimson Code missions which tend to be more black ops type of affairs. You can bet your ass Machina and Rem are a little more conflicted about doing these missions compared to the rest of the class. What's interesting to me about Type-0 is that the center of the game is the strongest, I feel chapters 3-6 are the game's best chapters. 7 might jump in there if I could be bothered to jump back in, but Romancing SaGa 3 has me hooked, and it was tough jumping right back into Type-0 after the ending.
Very true, now you need to play Suikoden III.
Well we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that, I guess. What we can definitely agree upon, though, is that Suikoden 1 is underrated.
I don't really agree that his actions went against his character or were contrived. He sought a lasting peace the only way he knew how. He was also trying to protect his homeland, misguided as he was. I don't really feel his actions were at odds with who he was earlier within the story.
I mean, like I said, I still think it’s great, but even though you explained this all to me now, that doesn’t change the fact that, the way it was communicated within the game, Jowy’s decisions felt very contrived and at odds with his established character - at least, to me, as I feel whether or not something is contrived is entirely subjective. And it’s not like I wanted a downer ending for him or that I need things to be super cynical, but the tone shift between how the game tries to present Jowy as throughout the game and how he ends up being in the end is just a tiny bit too jarring for me. I’m all for advocating for more good will on the side of the heroes - and yes I absolutely believe Ramza would have welcomed Delita with open arms should the end have been different for them both and I love him for it. Perhaps it would’ve worked better if Riou hadn’t been a silent protagonist.
Actually the game makes it clear that the Sword and Shield Runes clash from the get go. There is no mention of the rune in SV. Yet I feel you're missing part of Jowy's motivation here because his time in the City-States made him realize that the group was just as petty and unscrupulous as Highland, which is why he goes ahead and keeps the war going to wipe out the City-States cause as far as he's concerned, he's reformed Highland from within but still views the City-States as the corrupt and squabbling children he saw during the Muse Summit. He's not as well aware of the reform that Riou has caused within. So both parties are continuing the war because they know the two nations will be in conflict otherwise due to all the bad blood between them. The real Tactics kicker here is the fact that the second Suikogaiden game and SIII imply that even after Jowstown Alliance takes over the Highland kingdom, the area is still in conflict from former Highland forces who refuse to join the new City-States, and they may even be using contact within Harmonia to keep instability going. Not to mention Tinto does eventually bow out of the Alliance and become an independent nation since Pendragon is a selfish isolationist prick. His country is still causing a few issues by the time of SIII since it's having squabbles with the Grasslands, though in reality the issue is just organized thieves using Grasslander legends as a ruse for their raiding activity. You got to remember the part of the City-States Jowy saw was really not the best of them and half of their reform came because a lot of the heads of the states were either killed or forcibly removed in Greenhill's case, so it makes sense to me that Jowy would continue the war since a peace treaty would not like had last since neither side trusts the other despite being under new management. As for Jowy getting off scot-free, I never saw that sequence as Jowy being reformed as much as it was Riou finally coming to terms with the real lesson of the Rune of Beginnings which was to not give into its nature of conflict, but instead choose not to fight to become whole. A common theme with the more theoretical True Runes in the series is that the bearer is meant to fight the runes nature to finally tame it and bring it to balance. So I really saw that scene as more of Riou doing that, and by bringing balance to the rune by making the right choice, he's rewarded for it by saving Jowy's life. Jowy chooses not to live with Jillia and Pica because he feels he's guilty from his sins. I mean as you said, he did get her whole asshole family killed, so the best he could do was set her up a life where she can live peacefully and away from those who would use her as a symbol. Jowy certainly didn't get the comeuppance he probably deserved, but I feel his good fortune towards the end was really more from Riou and Nanami's grace than because he deserved a happy ending. I'd imagine if the War of the Lions had not torn their friendship apart and the two had remained in close contact towards the end, that Delita may have also had a less karmic ending. Granted, as dark as Suikoden can get, the series is way more idealistic than Matsuno's settings, so that is really what is at play here. The closest you get to a true canon downer ending in the franchise is Suikoden Tactics, and even that one is really not so bad outside of the Kooluk nation being completely dissolved and eventually absorbed into the Scarlet Moon Empire or Island Nations. The more Matsuno element of Suikoden is really when you look at the Big Picture and how certain alliances do eventually fall apart, such as the Grasslander and Zexens still being in conflict with each other or the three way squabble on the southern continent that wasn't really resolved during the Falena Civil War. Even the Toran Republic is still having fights with Jowstown by the time of Suikoden III. Suikoden does live and breathe the old adage of "war never changes".
That's not necessarily true. Suikoden II is still definitely a cut above most JRPGs in terms of story and sheer originality. I loved how it tied into the previouis game, I loved the truly mature story, and I really enjoyed gathering all of the characters. They were a very fun roster and I really wish more games could pull something like this off. The world really is better for having a game like this exist. However... I can't say that I wasn't disappointed. This was to be expected, however, since the game is being held to an impossible standard. I've heard so many people say it's the best story in gaming, perdiod when... I actually preferred 1's somehow? Sure, the second game is much more accessible on multiple levels, including the aesthetics, but while playing Suikoden 1 I was honestly surprised with how human the plot felt, and how the character motivations near the end turned out to be so incredibly relatable. It legit almost made me cry at the end. With 2's story, yeah, Riou and Jowy having that kinda Ramza/Delita mechanic is cool on paper but... it's really not even fair to put them in the same boat, imo. For one, this conflict is automatically compromized by having Riou be mute. And then there's the fact that Jowy's actions feel much more contrived. With Delita, you could see exactly what he rose from and there are many years that pass, during which you can tell that the change that happens in him is a direct result of what he goes through and who he is. It feels natural and incredibly gripping. With Jowy, I really could not understand why he made the decisions he made - especially near the end, when the war is over, so his initial goal is achieved, and yet he still tries to go against Riou. Now, Pumpkin told me V later reveals that it's because the Sword and Shield runes are always mean to clash but... there are a number of problems I have with that. Namely that 1) that's a retcon and 2) that's adding a bulltrout supernatural explanation to a conflict that was to this point solely based on human acting on human virtues and flaws, which really cheapens the whole impact on the story. And don't even get me started on the golden ending, where Jowy, who has at this point killed his new wife's entire family except for himself in cold blood, and later left her alone with their adopted daughter, only to go on a trip with his childhood friends... was really not satisfying. He did not deserve that. And that's another way Delita handled this better - he gets to reap what he sowed by the end, achieveing what he thought he wanted, but losing his humanity in the process, in a metaphorical way. So I guess... I probably would have enjoyed S2's story a lot more had I not heard so many good things and played FFT beforehand. Despite being much simpler, I still think S1's story just worked a lot better overall. That said, I still think they're both absolutely fantastic games that work the best as two halves of the same whole.
No you never did, but from comments you've made, I can tell you weren't impressed.
One thing that has been lacking throughout for me though is a character to latch on to emotionally. I dig the plot and the historical angle, but it’d be great if we could see it from a specific character’s lens, so that it means more on a personal level. I guess they’re kinda doing that with Ace, since he’s the one that’s fighting guilt over Izana, but we never focus on him too long. Meanwhile, Rem and Machina are clearly intended to be the emotional core but they fail so miserably at it. Machina is an absolute smurfing idiot with zero redeeming qualities and a stock shonen motive while Rem is just boring and is really mire of a plot device than a character. Part of the reason I like political stories so much - as in FFT, Tactics over or hell, even Song of Ice and Fire - is that the characters take center stage and seeing the incredible political drama unfold as a result of their actions that directly stem from their personalities is just immensely satisfying. Here, the story is undoubtedly cool, but I can feel myself getting detached from it at times. Which is why the focus on class zero escaping and breaking that initial status quo somewhat made such an impact, since I can finally see some characterization happen. Speaking of war stories, I never told you my thoughts on Suikoden II, did I?
Yeah you can tell Tabata was playing VI around the time he wrote that scene.
