Ooh boy a lot to come back to, but I can already see that I feel the underlying issue here is that you and I identify Cloud's personas differently when we use our terminology. Ultimately, I feel like this discussion is going to seriously start delving into existentialism, and why we may agree on certain aspects, I feel we're both approaching the concept from different world views which means we'll likely never see eye to eye on this subject as we both interpret Self differently. With that said, I'll clarify a few of my points as I feel part of the issue here is that I was not clear enough when I used certain terms. I don't believe I ever said OM (Original Memory) Cloud doesn't experience what his fake persona is doing. When I say the initial Cloud you meet is not the true self, it was never my intention to say that Cloud's core self was simply dormant the whole time. I feel the real Cloud is very much aware of what his fake persona is doing so he does know who Aerith is and is well aware of what he's been doing this whole time, but I don't believe he was in control of the situation either as it was more of his fake persona in charge. Likewise, I feel the scenes where Cloud's true self speaks in the inner monologues as well as fake Cloud's continual disturbed and eventual existential crisis at the climax of Disc 2 is simply the fake persona becoming aware of their true nature and eventually losing all sense of self. Where I feel we're at a standstill is that I feel that altering a person's memories would generate a new personality, identity itself being a culmination of memory, experience, genetic information, and likely a core awareness of personal distinction. Once you start tampering with that to the point of altering the predictable behavior an identity generates, I feel it's safe to say it's not the same person anymore. To me, this persona is based on enough altering factors that I would say it's not Cloud, nor do I feel Cloud would identify with his actions during this time frame, which only fuels some of his self-doubt that plagues him during Disc 2. Mask/Fake Cloud's actions are not the actions the original Cloud would have likely taken, thus I can't necessarily agree they're the same person, simply that mask is a constructed and splintered off personality that Sephiroth manipulates. Original Cloud is not sleeping or unaware of this other personality, and in the few cases of alternate personalities in real life, this is usually true for the patient as well. If this were a simple case of confabulation such as James Sutherland, I'd agree, but as discussed earlier, the origins of this fabricated persona makes me feel that I can't in good faith call Fake Cloud a simple self inflicted delusion, rather it's a partial manipulation and extensive brainwashing that has constructed a false persona for manipulation. For me it would be like dealing with an alternate timeline of yourself. Physically your the same being but your personalities could be radically different enough to be identified as two separate people. Overall though, we have to remember that we're trying to apply real world concepts on a story that obviously skimmed a freshmen text book on the subject matter, and thus the writers themselves are likely ignorant of the full scope of the idea they were playing around with. I honestly doubt Nojima or any of the other writer's could give a clear answer if they were part of this debate. With that said, I feel it's best we agree to disagree on the matter cause I honestly don't really care about Cloud's condition and have no desire to spend any time discussing it, hence why it took so long to get back to you. In terms of the nature of "self" itself. While I believe in an objective concept of self that likely permeates through all living beings, I feel it's too far removed from us to define it. We as humans can put it in terms by attributing factors to it to build identity, or examine the outside biological functions that we believe is the source of it, but I feel that information is transient and mutable at best. Simply dressing to help us put the idea and concept into terms we can discuss. Hence why I feel that manipulating those factors would alter the way one defines themselves and change the individual. I ultimately feel that most people use the terms of self and identity interchangeably and I don't believe that's the case. I feel the concept of Ego eimi is ultimately the closest people have come to attributing to my own definition of self.
All this crap aside I still haven't come around to continue my Kingdom Hearts bullcrap dismantling. By now some Ultimania answers have been released but its not like those solve the problems as as always there are too many of them and a Kingdom Hearts Ultimania always brings in more problems than before since it never acknowledges that with every answer new contradictions are made. At least Final Fantasy always has an Ultimania that is not that big of a deal and some answers actual are worth something. Well, in some context some for Kingdom Hearts also are, but there is just too much that can be a weakness in its lore.
I advise you to re-read everything if you are interested because I have made edits.
"While I can agree that he has most of the symptoms of confabulation, I feel his disorder goes beyond simply just filling the gaps in his memory and borderlines on disassociate identity disorder, which is why I feel the fugue state diagnosis fits better. Man I feel like I'm back in abnormal psychology class all over again." There is a significant difference to that which is why I pointed it out earlier and it is SO important to understand that because it is a completely different story when you think there are two literal guys running around instead of just one. Mask Cloud is not a second entity that gets destroyed. It is just that. A mask. There is no "Cloud never actually met Aerith so he does not need to feel sorry for her or never liked her because he never knew her" or anything. Cloud and Aerith met. She just wanted to met "HIM", as in, fully restored and healthy as he ordinarily was. Cloud CANNOT treat stuff from the first 1.5 CDs as something he lived through if that was not himself but he does. Because it was him. I do not know how close a fugue state is to a literal dissociative identity disorder. If it allows the self to be the same and suffer from that stuff and try to cope with it then I do not really care if we call it "confabulation" or "fugue state" because then that is just semantics. But it definitely is not a dissociative identity disorder because that creates a literal seperate entity. This is very very important. A "different personality" is not the same thing as a "different entity". And one that suffers from such a psychotic break does not just go through "oh let's forcibly change my character". He literally swaps out for another guy. Mask Cloud is not another guy. One Cloud that lives through it all. Not Wolf Kanno and Sephiroth sharing one body and arguing here. This is a very important difference that influences the narrative. And a fugue state can actually create such a thing from the get-go, as I just looked up to refresh so this is more than unfitting. Maybe you are not even trying to argue that and you do not mean stuff like "identity" on a literal level but I got to really really point out that difference because what an entity from the core is can be pretty much presented on an axiomatic level. With my neurotic behaviour and focus on psychological and existential thinking I have to point out a metaphorical and literal difference. Which is by the way why Nier 2 is not just contradicting the lore of the first game but also can only be accepted because it is "fiction trying to get the right point across" even though the tools it uses for questioning existence in reality are literally contradicting things. Just like Detroit Become Human raises questions for 20 year old people that are blatantly obviously answered. Biological Life is cellular life. Psychological life is the result of a cognitive system establishing an instance to perceive reality which can evolve furthermore through something that I personally to make it easier call "self association" to create a sense of self. And every sense of self is its own personal entity. Memories can be replaced. Characteristics can be changed, especially through the memories. But the entity will always be the one entity that starts with the sense of self. Which is why I hate the sentence "you are not yourself". No. You cannot be someone else than yourself. No matter what happens you always take your Self with you because that is you. I cannot literally become somebody else. Just like "presence" cannot be left behind. Which is why the sentence only works as metaphorical expression. I do not know if Nojima-san does a solid job this time when it comes to making it more obvious but I think no matter what people are going to bring on their crap anyway. Like the really nice FF Peasant on youtube that brings theories with one single line in the game already contradicting him and he says he knows that but nonetheless he wasted his time making that video.
"That is why I would argue that Cloud's initial identity is a fabrication, and not simple him trying to fill in holes of his memory." Going by exactly what the game gives us, seeing how much of his ordinary character is still on the surface as well as a piece of dialogue with Aerith that is just not available because of a glitch that nonetheless showed she was very much able to see which parts were "his" everything shows that there were a lot of his "normal" traits on the surface and that the rest was the result of inevitable change due to the circumstances. "He's being manipulated by Sephiroth through Jenova's DNA, he has transposed himself into the role of Zack, and his initially personality throughout the first disc involves taking on the characteristics of both Zack and Sephiroth which is then completely dropped once his identity is restored. In the case of James Sutherland, his confabulation simply hides the truth of his guilt from him, but he does not undergo any noticeable changes of his personality." Which is where you are making a big mistake. James' character does not change because the mask to cope does not influence him enough. The mask that Cloud creates from reading Tifa's mind and to live on with reality gives him experiences that would of course change his character. It has nothing to do with it not being confabulation or not being "the same Cloud that is just lying to himself". Their reasons for confabulating were simply different. James did it because he could not deal with the fact that he killed his wife on her death-bed out of mercy (and frustration). Cloud confabulated through subconscious activation of Jenova cells because he was in a miserable state and he was so ashamed so of course the outcome would lead to a change of character as that was the entire purpose. "Ashley Riot in Vagrant Story also never shifts his personality much when learning his past is a lie, but then that game also makes it difficult to discern which scenario is actually true. Cloud on the other hand begins the game with Sephy's "too cool for school" attitude when dealing with AVALANCHE, finally starts to show his past self when dealign with Tifa, and then jumps into a more heroic self once Aerith shows up, drawing on Zack's selflessness and bravado. Cloud's persona is presented as being rather inconsistent and erratic from the beginning, which I feel is there to serve as early foreshadowing that Cloud isn't who he says he is." Which is fine because not every case is the same. But your Cloud shifting perfectly presents what I am saying: It is Cloud. Not Cloud and his newly created friend Kloud. This "inconsistent" behaviour consists of normal characteristics that he also has when healthy proving my point that it is not just some other guy taking control while Cloud hides in a corner but instead the same guy that just altered HIMSELF so much to the extent that he does not even realize that the guy that is talking to him and who is asked by him who he is in reality is just his own brain having a subconscious talk instead of a Gollum-Smeagol talk. It is absolutely true the story takes some liberties when it comes to expressing things especially when it comes to the subconscious stuff but I can not point out enough: "TRUE CLOUD" NEVER NOT EXPERIENCED HALF OF THE STORY. When healthy again he sees himself as the result of all that crap that happens. He acknowledges HIS time during all that psychological crap, not that it was some other guy.
"Oh you and I both know that's going to happen. I'm sure Nojima and Nomura will alter the Remake plot in a way that's different from both the original and Compilation. It will likely be a third interpretation of the title." I would not be sure about that. They assured the fans that there would only be tweaks with the core staying intact so I would seriously hope that this is the case. "As for the confusion on Cloud, I never saw Cloud's issue as simple confabulation, I honestly feel like he's suffering from a fugue state instead. I say this because I feel there is a significant change in how Cloud acts and presents himself before and after the revelation of his true identity. He loses a lot of his cockiness and bravado and instead starts to second guess himself a lot more." Which goes directly hand in hand with confabulation. When I talked with the user "Spooniest" a few years ago I saw that you Americans (you are one as well, right?) have a different understanding what "Confabulation" means. Which is why I pointed it out directly with the example. A fugue state is of dissociative nature. This goes too much into the territory of a brand new entity being born through a psychotic break. And this is not what happens with Cloud. A direct result of confabulation, the repressing of a troublesome memory and replacement of it with another one to create a "half-truth" goes hand in hand with a change of the character on the surface while other ordinary traits stay intact. You know what that is such an important thing to differentiate? Because everything that would create a different entity would result in more than just a "different person" from a metaphorical perspective (metaphorical perspective: I'm telling you "wow, you're not yourself", "wow, you are not the guy you were 10 years ago" - literal perspective: seperate self: you and me, Smeagol and Gollum, literally every human that suffers from a psychotic breaks where the brain splits of a part of the psyche and creates a different self that is not your own and literally has nothing to do with you). Now you might ask "ok, what are you actually trying to say?" I am telling that because the game never ever has a literal second Cloud that is "not THE Cloud". There is no difference between a "true Cloud" and a "mask Cloud". If by "true" people say "his ordinary and healthy character" then yes, that is absolutely true. If by "true" they think it means "there are two seperate guys, one is A and the other one is B" then no. It is really important to understand that the "echo" that Cloud hears is not a literal person; that the Cloud that Tifa talks to in the Lifestream is not a literal different being. As Cloud acknowledges it, he "is the master of illusions". He does not hide and lets another person do the job. It is him. And that is important. He went through a change based on this psychological problem and he did not realize. We do not literally run around with another person for one half of the game and then this person gets destroyed and then we run around with another person. This does not happen. The Ego, the sense of self is what we are. And Cloud only hosts one. Well. Technically he hosts more. Since Sephiroth haunts him. But you know what I mean. This is no case of Johnny Depp in the Secret Window creating "John Shooter" while not being aware that this John Shooter guy shares one body with him. This is a case of "oh I am such a loser, I without having active control over it better convince myself as defense mechanism that I was more than I am and can live on with my life as long as Tifa does not decide to tell everyone including myself that I was bulltroutting". "Of course the other issue at play here is that the circumstances of Cloud's identity crisis goes beyond psychology since we have to deal with the fact he's being manipulated through alien DNA as well, so I don't feel we can rule out a more complex answer to his condition." I will when it comes to that all the time 100% agree with you about that but confabulation is still the disorder that comes the closest in real life. To prevent itself from getting damaged, the brain represses troublesome memories, looks for things it can do to create half-truths and thus cope with the situation better. Except for the "oh, it is from an alien thing" this is exactly what happens.
Oh you and I both know that's going to happen. I'm sure Nojima and Nomura will alter the Remake plot in a way that's different from both the original and Compilation. It will likely be a third interpretation of the title. As for the confusion on Cloud, I never saw Cloud's issue as simple confabulation, I honestly feel like he's suffering from a fugue state instead. I say this because I feel there is a significant change in how Cloud acts and presents himself before and after the revelation of his true identity. He loses a lot of his cockiness and bravado and instead starts to second guess himself a lot more. I know a lot of fans whine about "Gloom Cloud" in the compilation, but from my last few playthroughs of VII, I actually see Cloud presenting a lot of those traits already in the original, though I'll agree that it gets cranked up to 11 in later installments for both story and non-story reasons. Of course the other issue at play here is that the circumstances of Cloud's identity crisis goes beyond psychology since we have to deal with the fact he's being manipulated through alien DNA as well, so I don't feel we can rule out a more complex answer to his condition. That is why I would argue that Cloud's initial identity is a fabrication, and not simple him trying to fill in holes of his memory. He's being manipulated by Sephiroth through Jenova's DNA, he has transposed himself into the role of Zack, and his initially personality throughout the first disc involves taking on the characteristics of both Zack and Sephiroth which is then completely dropped once his identity is restored. In the case of James Sutherland, his confabulation simply hides the truth of his guilt from him, but he does not undergo any noticeable changes of his personality. Ashley Riot in Vagrant Story also never shifts his personality much when learning his past is a lie, but then that game also makes it difficult to discern which scenario is actually true. Cloud on the other hand begins the game with Sephy's "too cool for school" attitude when dealing with AVALANCHE, finally starts to show his past self when dealign with Tifa, and then jumps into a more heroic self once Aerith shows up, drawing on Zack's selflessness and bravado. Cloud's persona is presented as being rather inconsistent and erratic from the beginning, which I feel is there to serve as early foreshadowing that Cloud isn't who he says he is. While I can agree that he has most of the symptoms of confabulation, I feel his disorder goes beyond simply just filling the gaps in his memory and borderlines on disassociate identity disorder, which is why I feel the fugue state diagnosis fits better. Man I feel like I'm back in abnormal psychology class all over again.
Now that people are speculating once again about Final Fantasy VII Remake News with me looking at comments I once again have this fear that with those slight story-tweaks that Nojima-san was supposed to make people are going to misunderstand the story segments even more than they did in the original. It is incredible how the internet with people emphasizing on only one part with ignoring the other one combined with smurfing contradictory interpretations like the Brittenham one can go so much beyond what a normally very simple to be understood story is supposed to be. I know you are the "biggest Nojima-fan of all time" but I really hope he does not mess this up with his tweaks because stuff that was blatantly obvious in the story was ignored already so I don't know what happens if it is even changed as peoples' understanding might be even worse then. Btw. I am talking about stuff like: The Sephiroth & Jenova topic The Cloud & Aerith dynamics which mainly are twisted by so-called "CloTis" and "ZEriths" The Confabulation that Cloud suffers through where people act like "real Cloud" is an actual seperate entity and person which is not the case because Confabulation is not the same thing as Dissociative Identity Disorder while it was instead another layer instead of an actual consciousness and self. A "mask" as James in Silent Hill 2 also has when he convinced himsef that his wife died years ago and repressed the part of himself that new the truth to prevent his brain from getting damaged. Compilation stuff like Hojo virtualizing himself (who knows if that is included but that one at least was not Nojima who wrote it but to be honest, even that was properly explained in DoC and people still did not get it). There is a lot more but ... sigh ... I swear if I read more things about people treating Jenova as the mastermind of the story and the one killing Aerith - because they do not get that Jenova is not a character in the traditional sense as people are - just because of a single line on CD2 where the heroes said "btw. dude, we followed Jenova's body", completely glossing over every other thing that had Sephiroth say "I do not need this body anymore" as well as the revelation that Sephiroth did not just want to spread his consciousness but also control those who carried Jenova cells, etc. together with the entire misunderstanding of people what Jenova actually is, I am losing my mind. As a side note - I also hope he does not retcon too much. If he wants to explain better, fine. So far I was quite confident about what he wrote but I really hope this whole announcement of "we keep the core" is true.
Fair enough, and I can see your point on a few of the cases. It sucks when high expectations hurt the ability to enjoy something. Happened to me for a few entries myself. As for Zelda, I feel like Nintendo is overdue to let Zelda or Ganon be playable. Also you have way too much time on your hand to get all those trophies, and that's coming from someone else who has way too much time on their hand as it is.
About your conversation with The White Wizard of Fynn: https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/188...mories/Cetra29
