Conversation Between Wolf Kanno and Sephiroth

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  1. Yeah, we'll just skip CC at the moment because my issue with adding to that scene really stems with my issue of the game as a whole and SE's insistence on trying to make side stories just as earth shattering as the original IP they are based on, but that can be a discussion for another day. Personally, I feel the ending would have been better if the scene had played exactly like the original scene without the extra scenes and dialogue because Zack's story should have always been a Shoot the Shaggy Dog Story.

    I feel my issue with Hyne really is just the fact that it's weird to name drop such an important figure and then never really go into them again at all. Like I figured Ultimecia's goal with Time Compression was always meant to be here trying to reunite and take control of Hyne's power, but the fact that even that is never directly stated is kind of weird to me. VIII has so many strange world building issues.

    Yeah, I'm aware of the novel, though I've heard the game is a very loose adaptation of it. Personally, I think the more interesting thing about PE is that most the game feels like it was built from all of the discarded ideas from VII. The Guch wanted the story to be set in New York City, Jenova was originally envisioned as a biological component within all beings and that Shin-Ra was simply trying to wake it up with Sephiroth being an artificial Eve type figure.

    I've always liked the fact the Square's core developers tended to save unused ideas for later games, such as Celes' unused spy role being utilized for Cait Sith, or how VI and CT's plots utilized several unused ideas for Secret of Mana, and how Xenogears used several unused ideas from CT. It's nice to see interesting ideas didn't simply just die with the finished project, but instead moved onto become their own thing.
  2. I always felt like Hyne had "enough" of hints with that little extra story that was written around him and Ultimecia's first enemy bio where they alluded to her kinda re-uniting Hyne's powers as the bio said "she is planing on uniting all sorceress power with her Time Kompression" (which for some reason was never pointed out in the main story) but yes, long ago I even wrote an FFVIII story that revolved around Hyne.

    As far as Eve is concerned, you seem to read a lot. Eve was originally a book. I am pretty sure there is a translated version on the internet so if that is easier for you to manage time-wise then this might be the solution.But I really think the whole "pre-rendered backgrounds of a real city with FFVIII-styled people running around" got me last year again. It is funny how it brought me back to cherishing VIII more as well as well as re-considering how much I actually like pre-rendered backgrounds.
  3. "It did kind of overwrite things though, as it added dialogue that Zack gives to Cloud, the original is more poignant due to feeling more senseless whereas Crisis Core tries too hard to give Zack greater meaning."
    Which is exactly why I said it just expanded on things that were there already. It added something where something was not shown instead of directly overwriting.
    - Zack gets shot
    - Cloud crawls to Zack
    - Cloud has a crazy (normal) reaction over seeing someone die

    The only thing Nojima-san did was add something to were I wrote "blank". I cannot really compare that to Star Wars because the only thing that we got in FFVII was a flashback already putting it in a completely different position. It would basically forbid an author to say "btw. he whispered something to Cloud in his final moments" (or to be even more strict, it is forbidden for that guy to ever make a character say more than we have seen him say before). You gotta admit Genesis randomly appearing in the Nibel reactor is a way bigger thing and EVEN THAT in the most technical sense was done in a similiar fashion because a) the "false flashback" can have aas many inaccuracies as it wants and b) the "appropriate flashback" shows Cloud running inside when according to Crisis Core's logic Genesis was already gone (I am not even really defending Genesis - Genesis was the first character in the franchise that came close to me hating him but the only one who won this medal was Ardyn).
    So as mentioned, you said "it felt more senseless and gave Zack greater meaning" but, maybe you did not understand that, I already pointed that out: We had a whole game for Zack. Just shooting him down like some mob, have Cloud see this, go "aaaaaahh" and cut to the credits would kinda downplay the character that we got to know by now. This would also kinda not fit the weight he had gotten at this point. The more proper solution would have been to not make a Crisis Core at all (which I would not want as solution but that is more fitting than treating the main character of his own game like some random). To explain it further what is a more extreme retcon to me because it does not take advantage of other possibilities: Sephiroth's defeatreally flat out contradicts what happened. Sephiroth was thrown off a bridge by Cloud in the flashback. In Crisis Core he is defeated in the Jenova chamber. Or whatever the hell they made with Lucrecia in Dirge of Cerberus were she was stuck in crystal while we saw her in VII just sitting around until she was gone/died. The latter one could easily be solved in later Compilation remake additions by either having her in the crystal all the time/letting her appear in the crystal after a while or at least in an interview talk about artistic freedom 0293uv9 438z59 whatever. I mean - Dirge of Cerberus was written by someone else anyway and the whole design like the Shinra Manor just like Lucrecia's cave is different but these things really hardly have anything to do with "sticking to what was a thing" and more of "artistic freedom". It is not important for the story if her cave is full of crystal or a simple rock cave with one crystal (and it destroys me to say that because I think "of course every single detail is important" but I am pretty sure you know that I mean "for the general thing it is not important"). So yes, long story, short - I am glad they did that for Zack. I hated how he was supposedly a nobody in VII as he had to much impact on the story to make it a "clever and tragic thing" to me that Cloud switched with a mere "nobody" and then presenting that with not the slightest piece of dialogue or whatever additionally brought in would have been a punch in the player's face kinda - I knew Zack's death scene obviously as I knew VII before CC but the only thing I thought "oh well, he is gonna die by the end anyway ..." and not "oh well, I have to see this troutty death scene again that treats him like a nobody that we would not even neccessarily have seen because it was optional in the game". Maybe my priorities are too different here. Kinda only wanted to say such a thing does not really qualify for me as a retcon in the most traditional way as the main scenes stay intact and really the only thing that is kinda changed is the intensity of atmosphere and the meaning of the character but that will always happen to an extent and I would always think of "important dialogue changes" as worse than that (and some games would even benefit from dialogue changes or expansions - the best example is Kingdom Hearts).

    Well, let's go to the Eve and VIII thing instead.
  4. I have played maybe five minutes of Parasite Eve at most. I had no disposable income when it first came out and I only acquired the game years after it's release. I think I tried to play it while I was between games but it didn't hook me at the time. I meant to play it last year when I was revisiting the PS1 era Square titles, but I got consumed by my new found love of the SaGa franchise. I might try again this year since I've always been interested in playing through it.

    I agree that VIII is the real first "fantasy based in reality" story. Hell, I never understood that tagline anyway since everything we ever saw from Versus XIII proved contrary to that statement. I'm not even sure Nomura could explain it since he has a bad habit of latching onto weird phrasing that sounds cool to him, hence every subtitle in a KH game ever. Still, I actually liked VIII's portrayal of it;s world, I only wish we had a chance to really explore the setting more. I've always been curious about the geopolitical climate of the Galbadian continent and I still feel like the info given about the Centra and their disappearance was pretty lazy. Conceptually, I feel VIII had a lot of great ideas in terms of its world building, but it also feels like there was too much and perhaps the writer's simply stuck to what they were interested in, which is why some of the more interesting concepts never go anywhere. I still feel like Hyne was meant to play a more substantial role in the game beyond being a cheeky shout out to FFIII. I feel like VIII, more than the other PS1 titles probably had more ideas that never made it out of pre-production than players know.
  5. It did kind of overwrite things though, as it added dialogue that Zack gives to Cloud, the original is more poignant due to feeling more senseless whereas Crisis Core tries too hard to give Zack greater meaning. I feel it undermines the original intent of the character who was so invaluable to Cloud's character but no one really knew anything about him until the reveal and the short flashback. Having Zack give some silly speech about legacy and handing off his sword does retcon the original scene as none of that happens. The game basically tries too hard to make the player feel better for him whereas I prefer the more shocking and abrupt end given in the original.

    It would be like George Lucas redoing the scene from Empire Strikes Back where Vader reveals he's Luke's father and then he adds in a ten minute exchange that tries too hard to take a shocking scene and drag it out longer until it's almost a farce in itself. Likewise, CC's ending is taking a really powerful moment from the original and trying to drag it out and milk it for all it's emotional worth, which is frankly a bad choice. Having Zack's 10 second disappearance from the original transformed into a ten minute battle against the Shin-Ra army is trying too hard to make more out of him than was really necessary. CC in general was trying too hard to be over the top and like the original in terms of scale that it makes the series continuity almost laughable. I honestly feel a story that simply explored the SOLDIER program and unit would have been more interesting and better for the series lore than by forcibly adding a Sephiroth expy and having Zack go through a thinly veiled redo of the major plot points of VII.
  6. Btw. what do you think of Parasite Eve? I replayed the first disc last year again and it so heavily reminded me of FFVIII - of course because it came out at the same time pretty much therefore shares the artstyle that Nomura-san at that time had, but also the mere "realistic pre-rendered background" thing is something that I really like and so much reminds me of VIII. Versus XIII/XV was always called "fantasy based on reality" but if you ask me, VIII is the fantasy based on reality just for because of the looks themselves. I mean - XV can't really mean it to much in regards to the themes because well, those "realistic themes" also re-appear in other FFs and the "super-realistic our-world-esque looks" thing is too obvious so it always seemed to me like that is the main reason they called it that. And well, when it comes to that - VIII was also pretty realistically looking. It seems Parasite Eve re-juvenated my enthusiasm for VIII at the same time. Well, of course even the themes are pretty realistic in VIII so if somebody really wants to talk about that, the game even got that one covered - which is no wonder because, as said, those themes are recurring for many fictional stories.
  7. "Also, I hate how they did the ending and retcon Zack's final moments."

    I will never understand how that is seen by people as "retcon". I know a lot of people consider an addition a retcon as well but it is not like it overwrote something that existed. Crisis Core basically just expanded on what the original showed. They drove to Midgar, there was a battle, Zack ran to the cliff, he was shot. Crisis Core just filled in the gaps. Crisis Core's ending would not really have profited from having Zack as main but then killing him off as if he still was such an unknown guy to the player. You can't really have one without the other.
  8. Well I'm sorry our discussion has been causing harm, For that we can end the subject entirely and simply move onto something less stressful for either of us.

    If it's any consolation, I don't see you as someone who is "broken" per se, or at least I would say you conduct yourself in a manner that is typical for most people I meet. Normalcy from a social standpoint for me is not an objective mental state that comes natural for anyone, rather it's just an agreed upon social standard we all poorly try to conform to for the sake of harmony. Everyone is broken in some regards, life is too hard and people are so brittle, it simply comes with the territory that everyone is chipped, cracked, and falling to pieces. With that said, I won't delve any further into this matter.

    It will be interesting to see what happens with the Remake, I imagine the reception and fallout will be close to the Compilations. While I have little emotional investment in the project, I would hope that they at least re-write some of the sillier parts of the plot like using the dolphin to get into Junon or Cid's entire intro sequence. On the other hand, I fear the game will lost quite a bit of it's charm because it may lose those moments. It's the fundamental issue of remakes and trying to repackage nostalgia I guess.

    As for KH, I'm on the back half of KH2 where the party revisits the world, and while the game is better than I remember in some regards, I still take issue with the game's plot, as I feel Sora kind of lacks purpose in this one and so much of the backstory element of the game's really feels like Nomura and the team were simply just preparing for the three spin-offs that came after as opposed to giving a more self-contained narrative. It's got that middle child syndrome of trilogy films like The Matrix and Pirates of the Caribbean where it's too co-dependent on what comes after to enjoy it for it's own merits. When I listen to fans bitch and whine about the later entries and how this game ended the series perfectly, I honestly become confused because I sort of felt KH2 left us with far more questions than answering anything. Hell, even before the later entries confirmed it, I kind of already put together the idea that destroying a person's Heartless and Nobody would potentially reunite them back into their original being.
  9. But you know what? Thank you for talking. And who knows what Nojima-san writes for the Remake anyway. Maybe this time he will really lean it towards the thing that I do not want at all. It would destroy Final Fantasy VII because it blasts a hole in one important aspect of the narrative when it comes to the relevance of certain aspects and Cloud and Aerith's relationship and how they value each other that by many people (e.g. "Tifa only instead of value both girls as the story shows" people) is just handwaved away with this whole "true Cloud" thing (which is one of the reasons why it is so important) as big as some of Kingdom Hearts' holes but we have to see. Maybe he will use the wrong words like Nier 2 but "means the right thing". Then it would still be okay. It is one of the only ways to enjoy stuff like Nier 2 for me anyway instead of thinking "and this is the sequel to what is almost as good as FFVII to me ..." The intention has priority and if that's fine even such a broken person like me can live with it. I hope at least. Let's just hope Sephiroth does not become a fatso.
  10. I never said that's not the case what you called splintering and weak(er) to Sephiroth; but it is important what is meant. I also said a part of Cloud is seperated. It is just that you treat it as another person while I say it is not and that it does not make sense to treat it like "you and me" instead of just "a guy getting inner echo warnings from his own repressed fragments" and that those "fragments" speak about Cloud like he is another person even though they are not can be clearly seen when Tifa talks to Cloud fragments that definitely belong to him an are no literal "own entities" while he is in the Lifestream so this even more emphasizes on it being written as tricky to understand without acknowledging the full context and logic.

    Yes, Cloud would have likely "not done stuff mask Cloud did", I will always agree with that. But that does not make him another Cloud. That is why I told you there is a big big big big BIG neccessity in differentiating between "literal and metaphorical differences of self". There is always a great difference between talking about "personality" as a mere character structure and as a "self". I would never ever do stuff I did 20 years ago. Psyche change is not Death and Birth.
    When Cloud while being temporarily repressed through his own mental weakness and inner desire replaces a facette of his being with another one, then it is still his being. What you are trying to argue is the Theseus Ship paradox on a psychological basis. "Is x still x when component 1-n is replaced/missing?" and the answer is yes. That is just pseudo-philosophy that actually has answers in life. Just as an apple is an apple no matter how much you eat from it or if you randomly decide to glue something on it. That can be answered with "Apple: State ..." And that is the same with us. "Oh, you are not yourself". No. Wrong. It is impossible.
    You brought up a timeline guy. The timeline guy is not me. Why? Because despite the same origin, the same chronology trunk, he through a split (let's just say crap like timesplits are possible) has a seperate self, a seperate instance to perceive reality. He is exactly what I said before: A clone. Of course in his case he would be a clone through other means and have already changed but a clone nonetheless. Not me.
    And this is exactly why it is so important for me to differentiate these things. The woman Encina, she shares rooms with her friends in her brain. They are not her. They have their own selves. Why? Because they have their own perceptional instance. It is "not her just being forced by her body to be different" which would result in it still being her but just metaphorically different. No, it is really someone else and she experiences that. That is also why I made it very clear "btw. of course Cloud speaks to Cloud" so nobody can actually say "WAIT! You forgot!" No, believe me, I do not forget. I made it very clear this is not the kind of talk that two people have. And that this is supported by the rest of the story where Cloud actually has to live through things and not "backseat experience" because it does not make any sense in the narrative. You are aware that Cloud has a spiritual connection with Aerith and that what he associates with her is his Promised Land? Does not make sense either if he was just "the third wheel" hiding behind a driver that you want to be killed after the Mideel incident.

    Anyway, I assure you, with my neurotical disorder you have done more harm to me now than you felt when you reluctantly went back to the conversation that I for my own mental health wanted to deflect with my Kingdom Hearts comment. If you do want to know what that means, ask Psychotic. I have no problem with him telling a teeny bit about me if your question is now "wtf is going on with him right now". Maybe you now at least can kind of understand that I do not do the conversation and ad infinitum discussion stuff out of mere joy and assholery and that I suffer a lot more from this than the mere roll-eyes discussion partner that only thinks "omg this arrogant asshole again". That does not mean nobody should ever discuss with me but let's just say when we have both already let it die down, then let's leave it at that. Especially if both instances already say stuff like "I have no intention to talk further about this" (you) or "this is getting bad for me through my disorder" (me), especially as I can tell you, if it does not help me to bring up more and more points that are of almost fundamental nature and it does not contribute to my person saying "huh, okay, never thought about that and that it really would destroy the purpose of that other thing" then it only gets me more frustrated. I do not do these discussions where I seem obnoxious to people because it is my will. It is an urge on a scale that reaches far into disorder territory steming from an even worse time for me. Well, at least the disorder helps me a lot when gathering information.

    Thanks for your time.
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