Understanding my views on VII/VIII (mild spoilers)

*This releates to FFVIII aswell slightly, but I don't think this needs to go in General, but I'lll let the admins decide*


My favorite FF games are VII and VIII and I would play them constantly, I used cheat devices for which I am ashamed, and have given that up (I am really working in FFVIII at the moment). However I've been thinking, about this recently, and to me it makes perfect sense, but I may be wrong, as I can only see it from my own perspective. There have been many complaints that in FFVII many key storyline points are not explained fully enough, I am talking about things that many gamers had to read outside sorces to understand, such as what really happened to the Nibelheim residents, and the truth about "cloning" (and Cloud's memories) I actually found the explination while playing the game, I never read anything until I saw posts about it. I also (as you know) defend FFVIII's "Orphanage Scene" on a regular bases, because I strongly feel it does work as a realistic scene (I am compiling a sepperate document on this subject.)

I feel that because I managed to skip most of the action (I used KOTR regularly, in my first few FFVII playthoughs, and Squall was pratically invincible in FFVIII) I was able to get to the storyline points quicker between playthroughs, so I feel I was able to see so much more than I should have at once, I also had multiple saves of my favorite scenes, so I could study them, I managed to understand FFVII a lot, and I apreciated it everytime I played it. I saw the things the otherway around aswell, for instance, I knew what had really happend "5 years ago" on my 2nd playthrough onwards, so I was able to pick up hints towards the truth. Square are brilliant with hints as they're so subtle, you only notice them after you know what they're hinting towards.

The same applies to the hints to the Orpanage on FFVIII, there are actually many clever hints towards it, but they mean nothing until you've actually seen the scene itself. What did I do when I completed FFVIII? I just started all over again, and I was able to see within dilogue and actions, that there are hints to the Orphanage Scene. And they are beasically the same style hints that FFVII gave to the Nibelheim/Mideel scene, with an important subtle differece that will soon be explained.

I have always had resepct for Square, and I have a lot more now.

Can anyone provide examples of foreshadowing regarding the orphanage plot aside from the brief scenes of Ellone prior to the revelation? I enjoy finding small details like this on subsequent playthroughs of Final Fantasy games.

I dont know about FFVIII because im not very far in it, but with FFVII i can say that i read up on it whilst playing it so as to better understand it. If hints are subtle, im unlikely to get them :) even if i've got the background information.
I too admire Square Enix, but for their amazing ability to write such deep, complicated storylines. :D

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Originally Posted by Roogle

Can anyone provide examples of foreshadowing regarding the orphanage plot aside from the brief scenes of Ellone prior to the revelation? I enjoy finding small details like this on subsequent playthroughs of Final Fantasy games.

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I'm curious what some of them are as well. It's been a long time since I played FFVIII, but I don't remember any foreshadowing popping up during my subsequent playthroughs of the game (and there have been several).

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Originally Posted by Roogle

Can anyone provide examples of foreshadowing regarding the orphanage plot aside from the brief scenes of Ellone prior to the revelation? I enjoy finding small details like this on subsequent playthroughs of Final Fantasy games.

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The GF memory erasure effect is mentioned on Squall's computer in Balamb Garden.

I argue a bit about the orphanage foreshadowing as I find some of the hints I noticed, may have hinted towards it but perhaps I may be trying to rationalize a story element into the game for the sake of fulfilling my need for clarity when reality I'm taking a situation and placing it grossly out of context to suit my own selfish needs. A prime example is Irvine not willing to take the shot at the parade. It sounds like a hint when you place the Orphanage twist in there but I feel there are too many logical errors for this to count when you really begin to analyze the dialogue and scene.

If we are talking about good foreshadowing in the FF series, I would probably suggest Cloud's mental illness. Why? Because the game makes it very clear something is wrong with Cloud but we don't know what it is, the game gives us hints but they are all out of context so we never understand there significance but it all makes perfect sense afterwards. The only issue lies in the "clone" terminology" and the logical error of Tifa's reasoning.

In regards to the Orphanage scene or Ultimecia in VIII or Dream Zanarkand in X I feel the presentation is very weak. In fact the plot element only works in this titles when you play it a second time through and even then I feel the foreshadowing suffers from poor execution, terrible pacing, and all of them being utterly ridiculous. This is just my :twocents: though.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

Can anyone provide examples of foreshadowing regarding the orphanage plot aside from the brief scenes of Ellone prior to the revelation? I enjoy finding small details like this on subsequent playthroughs of Final Fantasy games.

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These will be revealed in mny aritlce, but here are a couple of examples;

1. Squall recognising Edea's name.

2. How Irvine behaves through most of his scenes. (He's the only one who remembers of course).

I will get the article finished as soon as I can - it's one of those things where I know what I want to say, I just don't know the correct approach.

Seeing as this has seemingly created more discussion on the VIII aspects, I'll move it to General FF.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I argue a bit about the orphanage foreshadowing as I find some of the hints I noticed, may have hinted towards it but perhaps I may be trying to rationalize a story element into the game for the sake of fulfilling my need for clarity when reality I'm taking a situation and placing it grossly out of context to suit my own selfish needs. A prime example is Irvine not willing to take the shot at the parade. It sounds like a hint when you place the Orphanage twist in there but I feel there are too many logical errors for this to count when you really begin to analyze the dialogue and scene.

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Are your referring to people saying the orphanage was foreshadowed by Irvine not taking the shot? I actually never thought of that, I always assumed it was because when you use Scan on him, it says how he chokes under pressure.

In general, I have to say from my experiences the orphanage wasn't really foreshadowed at. I accept it b/c it's one of those human experiences, not remembering someone because they've changed many years later, especially from childhood to adult hood/adolescence. It's human stuff like that that makes me like FFVIII so much to begin with. Overall I think it just ties into the orphanage/garden/SeeD thing.

However, both games I feel like there aren't many gaps. Playing both, exploring all the nooks and crannies, seeing all the optional story parts, I pretty much got them wrapped up.

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Originally Posted by MJN SEIFER

1. Squall recognising Edea's name.

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I don't remember this at all, but I would be willing to bet that from a story stand point, not knowing about the orphanage scene in advance, I would have simply assumed that a Sorceress coming to some measure of power in a major nation might be someone Squall may have heard something about either in the news or from other people, maybe even just in passing.

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2. How Irvine behaves through most of his scenes. (He's the only one who remembers of course).

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I honestly thought he was just a little odd to be honest, and I agree with Bolivar that on my first playthrough I thought not taking the shot was just him choking under pressure since he's been known to choke in the past.

I have to agree with Wolf Kanno that this stuff just didn't work as foreshadowing because it was not only vague, but had alternate explanations until you try to monkey the orphanage scene in there after the fact, and even then it's sometimes a stretch to even figure out something was up from the foreshadowing. Honestly other people may like the foreshadowing, but I personally feel that if it didn't even make me question that something was up on the first playthrough then it was a failure, and may have directly lead to a good chunk of my hatred of the amnesia plot twist. Had the memory loss been foreshadowed better then it wouldn't have seemed to come out of nowhere as a half-assed way to create some connection to Edea.

but the memory loss didn't come out of nowhere it's in the info on Squalls desk computer (and help menu)... it's pointed out right from the start to anyone who reads...

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Originally Posted by Elly

but the memory loss didn't come out of nowhere it's in the info on Squalls desk computer (and help menu)... it's pointed out right from the start to anyone who reads...

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But few people would ever think twice about it on their first play through if they even see it. I'm pretty sure I didn't bother with his computer or the help menu very much in my first playthrough because it really isn't necessary when you've been playing RPG's for years. I was able to figure out much of the gameplay through forced tutorials and experience.

There's also the fact that even though there are those obscure references to the memory loss, there's nothing to really hint at the characters previously knowing each other or Edea prior to the game which makes it poor foreshadowing for the events that happen as a result of the memory loss.

Which is why they need to port the game to the PSP and re-translate it to make everything more clear.

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Originally Posted by McLovin'

Which is why they need to port the game to the PSP and re-translate it to make everything more clear.

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The translation is fine, and even if they polished it, it won't answer the true mysteries of VIII.

The plot is the main cause of this, which was obviously intended by SquareSoft. Therefore, it's not right for them to port the game over just to change the plot and clarify it because that will defeat the original plot of VIII.

But, a remake version with nice graphics would be nice.

People already delve deeply into the quotes of FF8 like Dr. Odine's Ellone speech and Ultimecia's krazy lines so having a re-translation could in fact answer things.