Do you think FFVIII's Game Design had an Impact on the series?

When you think about it, FFVIII was a super gutsy game in the franchise. After the huge success of VII, they really could have just retooled VII's design and released it but instead they really tried to shake up the formula and the RPG genre itself with getting rid of MP, having unlimited but killable summons, and changing around leveling, customization, and town mechanics. I mean, their really is not another game like VIII on the market, so if its so radically different, did the change really impact the future installments or did it simply reconfirm that people only desire the status quo?

To be perfectly honest, it seemed like a "see if it sticks" attempt by square. As much as I loved the game, it did receive a lot of criticism, to which the system got changed again by IX.

As you put it Wolf, it was gutsy, but I think it affected the franchise in terms of a "best not try that again" way for SOME areas of the game, which makes the game very unique.

The thing about Final Fantasy is that it has always been constantly remaking itself. Your argument could just as easily be applied to VII's Materia system or the way characters in IX are very much locked into their intended role. Removing MP wasn't that big of a change really, especially with the way the magic system works. It's not like you could cast unlimited spells and the summon system was really such a small part of the game mechanics especially later on. I don't think they re-introduced MP because the lack of it was unpopular in FFVIII, but more as a result of their desire to have every Final Fantasy be different from the last.

Once we moved into the Playstation Era every Final Fantasy has been very different in terms of game mechanics and they really never seem to take into account what did and didn't work in the previous games. Some of the concepts have been revisited in different ways in Final Fantasy X such as killable summons and being able to have some extra input in battle. (like Squall's gunblade compared to the interactive overdrives).

The Junction system was never seen again, but then again neither was Materia and I think those were very similar concepts. I don't think there was anything gutsy at all with FFVIII's design. They knew based on the success of VII they could release basically anything so there wasn't exactly going to be that much pressure. But basically when you get down to it I don't think any of the "modern" (FFVII+) games have had that much impact on their successors, and VIII is no exception.

While I agree the franchise is about reinventing itself, I would argue the Junction System was a rather big departure from other games in the franchise. The Materia system itself is just a further breakdown from VI's Relic/Esper/Class system which in itself is a variation of FFV's Job Class system. Most of the Post-FFV customization systems are generally just a re-imagining of V's Job Class system, IX and XIII being the exceptions to the rule.

I feel the fact VIII decided to get rid of Armor and meaningful weapon upgrades in exchange of integrating it into the Junction system was a pretty big departure. There really wasn't a game before that tried it. While spells are still limited, technically the ability to draw and simul-cast meant it was possible to have infinite spells in some battles, and the way it integrated with customization, many players found themselves to stock up on spells to use as makeshift armor and buffers for stats. You still equip Skills through the GFs but VIII makes it far more limiting, at first but then you also get the ability to remove them and replace them. Making them technically more flexible than V-VII's systems. The shear fact they introduced a "steal spell" mechanic in itself was pretty interesting and has never really been done since which is a shame because I feel it could be expanded into something cool. The leveling system itself also brought in some major new dynamics to the game that most gamers at the time took for granted. Not many games punish you for gaining levels.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I feel the fact VIII decided to get rid of Armor and meaningful weapon upgrades in exchange of integrating it into the Junction system was a pretty big departure. There really wasn't a game before that tried it. While spells are still limited, technically the ability to draw and simul-cast meant it was possible to have infinite spells in some battles, and the way it integrated with customization, many players found themselves to stock up on spells to use as makeshift armor and buffers for stats. You still equip Skills through the GFs but VIII makes it far more limiting, at first but then you also get the ability to remove them and replace them. Making them technically more flexible than V-VII's systems. The shear fact they introduced a "steal spell" mechanic in itself was pretty interesting and has never really been done since which is a shame because I feel it could be expanded into something cool. The leveling system itself also brought in some major new dynamics to the game that most gamers at the time took for granted. Not many games punish you for gaining levels.

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You know, I've actually said this before, but FFVIII's junction system was a wonderful concept. I mean it, I really love the idea of the junction system. It was new, it had never been done before or since, and it allowed for some pretty cool customization potential. The only thing I hated was how absolutely unbalanced it is. I wouldn't have a problem with requiring either very deep knowledge of the game and mechanics, or a lot of luck, to break the gameplay, but in this game, even a small amount of understanding of what you were doing made the difficulty disappear.

I would love to see another company take up this system (or do something similar) and balance it well. Of course Square could revisit it themselves, but I don't have a lot of faith in them these days to get much right.

One of the biggest problems with the junction system as I see it is that there are so many ways to get new magic in the game with almost zero risk, and you gain them all so early, that there's no incentive to not spend a few rounds drawing each battle until you've stocked a couple dozen more spells for each character, then wipe out your opponent. Or buy as many tents as you can and refine them into Curaga's. I don't think there's any easy solution to that and certainly no single solution. It'd require a tweaking of pretty much every system at work in the game to fix it.

As to the original question, I can't see that it had much of an impact at all. The junction system was quickly abandoned, either for being too different, or too difficult to balance. And with regard to everything else, since they've been moving (with the exception of FFXII) to more linear games with less interactivity in towns (or even towns at all), it's hard to say VIII had a lasting impact. Mind you, I think it's so reviled among many fans that Square probably thinks it would be crazy to take too much from it.

Yeah, I don't think it had much of an impact either apart from Triple Triad. It was so awesome, that they decided to make a really troutty version of it called Tetra Master. And then Sphere Break, which was more fun than Tetra Master, but still no worthwhile rewards compared to Triple Triad. I really loved the Junction system, partly because it was so much fun to exploit, and I thought monsters leveling up with you was a pretty neat idea.

What was different as far as towns in VIII? All I noticed was that I couldn't loot.

I always thought FF9 was more of FF8 in terms of storytelling structure, card game, the way they used per-rendered graphics. so yes i think it did impact FF series. My favorite part of FF8 game system is the ability to customize the entire menu to add or remove functions such as Mug/Draw/Item.

A lot of FFVIII has influenced other games. You had FFIX use the same engine. And the style of "3 guys, 3 girls" as well the girls being "jail-bait, dark side, girl next door" archetypes carried over into FFX and XIII. I think it really defined the kind of story you get in those games as well. Of course there's the gunblade. I don't know if FFX really would've gone for a love story if FFVIII didn't do it first. And of course, it was a huge revolution in sound in that Uematsu finally left the chip behind and moved straight into samples. I think that made a tremendous shift in the RPG genre, and I can't honestly say if we're better off for it. When you combine that with the story feel, you essentially have how Kitase & Toriyama view RPGs. And then of course we have how it changed summons.

I don't think FFVIII was a radical departure with its game mechanics, as far as getting rid of MP and armor (I would argue FFII's is more out there from the series). But I do think it was the most complicated. Essentially, it continued the tradition of FFVI and VII, of breaking down FFV's classes into its constituent parts. FFVII already really changed the armor system, FFVIII just went one extra step. Still, I think it was a very complicated route where magic determined EVERYTHING about that character, even esoteric stats like status/elemental damage, there were a lot of different ways to obtain magic, and a lot of crazy things to do with enemies, not to mention how the separate card system plays into the customization as well. There were so many insane options, unfortunately when you create a system this large it's hard to maintain the balance and players find the cracks. With a series like Final Fantasy where the players play it multiple times over and research it to find every little advantage, it was only a matter of time before the system crumbled beneath its own weight.

Square has tried a lot of other systems and I think that's what they should do, but I think they know they don't want to go as complicated as VIII. Actually, the unique system trend would be accurate if it weren't for XIII, which I was very off put by the fact that they simply revisited the Sphere Grid with the Crystarium except they made it far simpler. That should have been considered a huge stain on the XIII team's reputation for doing that.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

And of course, it was a huge revolution in sound in that Uematsu finally left the chip behind and moved straight into samples.

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I don't think that's because of FFVIII though. The only reason he stuck with the soundchip in FFVII was because he wanted the sounds to load very quickly and not take up a lot of system resources so those resources could be allocated to other parts of the game. But of course, as companies get better at utilizing a consoles hardware they can squeeze more out of it, and the amount of time it takes to load sample based music stops being as much of a limitation and they can implement that into newer titles. Honestly, moving in that direction was inevitable, and once they went down that road there was obviously no going back for big budget productions. They just happened to do it in FFVIII first.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I feel the fact VIII decided to get rid of Armor and meaningful weapon upgrades in exchange of integrating it into the Junction system was a pretty big departure. There really wasn't a game before that tried it. While spells are still limited, technically the ability to draw and simul-cast meant it was possible to have infinite spells in some battles, and the way it integrated with customization, many players found themselves to stock up on spells to use as makeshift armor and buffers for stats. You still equip Skills through the GFs but VIII makes it far more limiting, at first but then you also get the ability to remove them and replace them. Making them technically more flexible than V-VII's systems. The shear fact they introduced a "steal spell" mechanic in itself was pretty interesting and has never really been done since which is a shame because I feel it could be expanded into something cool. The leveling system itself also brought in some major new dynamics to the game that most gamers at the time took for granted. Not many games punish you for gaining levels.

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You know, I've actually said this before, but FFVIII's junction system was a wonderful concept. I mean it, I really love the idea of the junction system. It was new, it had never been done before or since, and it allowed for some pretty cool customization potential. The only thing I hated was how absolutely unbalanced it is. I wouldn't have a problem with requiring either very deep knowledge of the game and mechanics, or a lot of luck, to break the gameplay, but in this game, even a small amount of understanding of what you were doing made the difficulty disappear.

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Sure it has. Go play Golden Sun.

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I would love to see another company take up this system (or do something similar) and balance it well. Of course Square could revisit it themselves, but I don't have a lot of faith in them these days to get much right.

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Camelot did it. With Golden Sun. And it's brilliant.

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One of the biggest problems with the junction system as I see it is that there are so many ways to get new magic in the game with almost zero risk, and you gain them all so early, that there's no incentive to not spend a few rounds drawing each battle until you've stocked a couple dozen more spells for each character, then wipe out your opponent. Or buy as many tents as you can and refine them into Curaga's. I don't think there's any easy solution to that and certainly no single solution. It'd require a tweaking of pretty much every system at work in the game to fix it.

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Actually, I've been working on tweaking this myself. It started out with just a couple minor modifications, but it blossomed into a pretty huge endeavor that completely revamped the magic system, increased the difficulty, and gave some balance to the whole idea, if my thoughts pan out properly. I'll post more on that later.


As for impact, I think the biggest impact it had was in basic concepts, as well as what hasn't been repeated. The "Double Edged Sword" idea (which was originally present, though negligible, in FFVII's Materia system) has been almost completely junked from the series. The card game and collection ideas, which were bigger in FFVIII than in any previous title, were massively expanded in later games (for good or ill, I'll let you decide).

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

Sure it has. Go play Golden Sun.

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I'll have to check it out.

Golden Sun is definitely worth a look. There's what, three of them now? All of them are excellent. Hidden gems, for sure.

Camelot makes too many games that don't have "Shining" in the title.

Golden Sun is FFVIII-like? I had no idea. I might have to try this.