Sympathetic Main Villain

So it occurs to me that a lot of the "Big Bads" of the series are pretty generically evil. You have to look to side antagonists and villains if you want more sympathetic backstories or motivations.

The only real exceptions to this are:

Kuja - Mostly becomes sympathetic later in the game when you better understand what drove him to be evil.

Seymour - Pretty much is the main villain of the game as Sin is a force of nature and Yu Yevon has no mind. Jecht is also not a villain. Seymour had a pretty crappy childhood and his parents were both awful. He joined up with a corrupt church and learned everything they preached was bogus and they intended to keep a cycle of death and misery going forever.

Shuyin - A vengeful ghost who was driven insane by reliving the death of his loved one for a thousand years. Mostly just wants to kill the world to stop being reminded of his tragic last moments.

...and that's about it. At least in my view.

However I've brought this up elsewhere and it seems not everyone shares my view. So this topic is about which of the main villains are tragic. The first three I listed are inarguable as the narrative quite plainly wants you to feel sorry for them,e ven if you don't. These others are a bit trickier:

The Emperor - Something about his daughter and being manipulated by Satan. Only addressed in a book and never even hinted at in the game.

Xande - Terrified of dying but apparently has very little in the way of actual development or whatever. I don't really know a I have not played this game.

Kefka - Kinda sort vaguely because he went insane. This is only said in an optional line somewhere though and is never really properly addressed as far s i know. so I reject him.

Sephiroth - Again, kinda sorta vaguely because he went insane. Depending on if you subsribe to the Jenova Control interpretation, this also makes him a lot more pitiable. However no one ever expresses any remorse for Sephiroth, and indeed he has no real humanity or redeemable features by the time of the game. This is why I disqualify him from the list.

Ultimecia - Again with the kinda sort vaguely quality. She has about two lines that hint at her having something resembling a sad past/motive but it is never developed once in the game. I reject her as a candidate because of this.

Vayne - If you believe his wanton mass murder was justified in freeing humanity from the Occuria. I do not. All the war and death in the game is his fault and he has the stated goal of enslaving all of Ivalice under his rule. In short he's only replacing one tyrant with another, destroying any noble aspects of his actions. Moreover, he was far more ruthless than the gods he so wanted to defeat.

Barthandalus - Fated to never die and to serve humanity forever. Acts like a jerk for the whole game and doesn't come off as very tragic, in spite of the bum deal his god handed him.

So...yeah. Let's rap people. Who belongs in the Sympathetic Villain Group?

Up until now, I've never realized how few villains in FF are actually sympathetic. In fact, the most sympathetic ones are probably Shuyin and Caius from the sequels to X and XIII.

I can't sympathize with Exdeath, Kefka, Sephiroth, Ultimecia, Kuja or Barthandelus. From what I've heard, it doesn't seem like Garland, Mateus or Xande are sympathetic either. Seymour and Vayne are debatable. Seymour tried to eliminate suffering from the world, just like the party - it's just that he is very, very misguided and thinks that mass genocide is a proper way of doing it. Considering how much stronger he himself got when he died, no wonder he thought he was doing something good when he wanted to kill everyone. Vayne is kind of like "ends justify the means". He's kind of like the main party of XIII in his motivation, but his methods are what makes him unsympathetic.

Shuyin and Caius are both "if she can't live, no one can" in some form or another. Not really sympathetic either, but probably the most out of them all.

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This is only said in an optional line somewhere though and is never really properly addressed as far s i know.

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I'm not really sure how a canonical line in the game constitutes his madness being "never really properly addressed". It's not like it's made up by fans or only accessible in the Ultimania; it's a canonical part of all translations of the game. Certainly, a bigger deal could've been made out of it, and it's pretty clear we're not supposed to spend time dwelling over the tragedy of Kefka's existence, but it's definitely there, and supplemental materials expand on it greatly.

As TV Tropes points out:

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Kefka spends a full year causing destruction, but life continued and people still carried on hope for the future. In the end, while Kefka snaps at the party that their lives are meaningless and worthless, his life is the one that has truly become devoid of meaning and worth, because he cast off such things trying to deprive others of them.

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Even with their homes burned, mutated monsters roaming the world, friends and loved ones dead, and the world a charred husk, the people of the world, including the party, find the strength to keep living and look for hope for the future. Kefka is at first confused by this, then goes to enraged because it doesn't make sense to him.

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Perhaps one of the darkest interpretations of [Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds], evidence in the original game and Dissidia suggests it isn't so much Kefka not seeing the value of love and hope as it is he actually can't understand them anymore, his mind is just too far gone, and destruction is all he has to bring joy and meaning to his life with everything else beyond his understanding now. His famous end-game speech in VI is reused in Dissidia, but with a very obvious tone of despair to the words, Kefka seemingly lamenting the meaninglessness of life rather than declaring it.

The Ultimania guide to FFVI suggests that Kefka was once one of the Empire's top generals. After the Magitek infusion damaged his mind, he was forced to step down and reappointed as Gestahl's personal lackey, then made to oversee the perfected Magitek Knights, Terra and Celes. What really drove him over the brink was watching Leo take up his former position and outdo him in every aspect.

When the Returners give their collective "World of Cardboard" Speech at the end of the game, Kefka looks down and turns away for a moment, seeming distinctly sad. Unfortunately, that's when he really goes off the deep end.

And finally, Kefka's Dissidia 012 museum profile implies that he was Driven to Suicide in the final storyline because he thought destroying himself might finally satisfy his insatiable need to destroy.

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If that isn't tragic, I'm not exactly clear what it is. It's not really dwelt on in the original game but a lot of this is still pretty heavily implied regardless.

I have to confess I haven't really bothered looking that much into the backstories of most of the other villains because, to be frank, I don't really care about most of them. Kuja is the only other villain in the series that ever affected me enough to care to research things about him outside the game or the random tidbits people post on message boards. That said, according to the Ultimania, the Jenova control theory about Sephiroth is incorrect, but a lot of people regard that as a retcon since the game itself heavily implies the opposite (although this may just be a quirk of the poor translation we got). I'm kind of on the fence about it, though I tend towards thinking of it as a retcon myself.

I pretty much understand every main villain a bit when it comes to feeling what they feel as long as it is a human thought. Zande, even some philosophical parts about Kefka, Sephiroth, Genesis, Kuja, Seymour, Shuyin, Vayne and Caius.

"Sephiroth - ... Depending on if you subsribe to the Jenova Control interpretation, this also makes him a lot more pitiable. ..."

Since that is not canon because there is a truth about this story, explained in the story and by Square you need to feel sorry for him when it comes to other things like his whole life being a lie and so being just ShinRa's personal predator and the one to hopefully find what they thought to be the Promised Land.

"... but a lot of people regard that as a retcon since the game itself heavily implies the opposite ..."

I have three versions of Final Fantasy VII, Japanese, English and German. It is not a retcon, just am misunderstanding like many things and several events show and imply that he is the one to control JENOVA, he simply projected his own consciousness into another body while starting the Reunion. Especially because JENOVA is not what people think it is but just an embodiement of the Id. That is the best way to describe it. Sephiroth was not satisfied with only that, it was all thanks to Sephiroth ... Hojo does not explain things without reasons, and as much as people don't like Hojo, he was the one to find out the truth about Sephiroth and JENOVA. And Sephiroth is simply the new JENOVA, a better one with his own consciousness and will who actually can decide what he wants. He still wants to get more powerful but well - that's what villains are like. Retcons are not less official, by the way.

"... Kefka not seeing the value of love and hope as it is he actually can't understand them anymore, his mind is just too far gone ..."

These things don't contradict each other.

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Retcons are not less official, by the way.

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They are if only part of the team involved in creating the original game is involved in creating the retcon, as was the case with Final Fantasy VII and its Ultimania. Sakaguchi was not involved in creating the Compilation or the Ultimania, despite his rather substantial contributions to the original game's story.

People can argue that the original game supports the interpretation of Sephiroth controlling Jenova until they're blue in the face but it won't change the fact that every single significant step taken by Sephiroth in the original game also happens to further Jenova's ambitions. Even if Sephiroth is nominally "in control", he still hasn't done anything Jenova wouldn't also have done, given the power.

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Originally Posted by The Man

They are if only part of the team involved in creating the original game is involved in creating the retcon

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Err, no. Even if a guy who is called Justin Steinway (example) would make the retcon it would be official as long as he has the right to do it. That is how the world of money and law works. Own a brand, own the rights. People just say that if they don't like the changes. You have the right to ignore them but that does not make them non-existent when it comes to what is official. Companies have rights, companies decide. Not the fans - except when the company says "it is up to the player". If Square suddenly sells the rights for Final Fantasy VII to other people those peoples' story changes are not canon? That is not how it works. And in case of Final Fantasy VII it is not a problem at all because the most important person for the story is not Hironobu Sakaguchi, but Kazushige Nojima and he still writes the stories.

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Originally Posted by The Man

People can argue that the original game supports the interpretation of Sephiroth controlling Jenova until they're blue in the face but it won't change the fact that every single significant step taken by Sephiroth in the original game also happens to further Jenova's ambitions. Even if Sephiroth is nominally "in control", he still hasn't done anything Jenova wouldn't also have done, given the power.

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That has nothing to do with arguing until someone is blue, it has something to do with understanding that JENOVA is not a real character as people think. It has no ambitions. Do you call an animal evil for what it does? No. And JENOVA is an animal (an alien who acts like one). JENOVA is an emotionless, totally instinctive creature with the intelligence and powers to understand other lifeforms but its only meaning of life is splitting, absorbing and reuniting and that is all explained in the story and the Ultimania. And it can't do and will never do something else but use its powers to fool other lifeforms, like animals who disguise as well do so it shapeshifts, talks and all that to get what it wants. JENOVA is an Id (that word is not used but fits perfectly because of the definiton). No super ego and even the "ego" should not be used. Nothing. JENOVA has the intelligence to understand what morals are. Still it can only do what is it "programed to do". That is how JENOVA works, it is way more of an animal than we are. And so there is no evil master plan of JENOVA to use Sephiroth or anything else for a higher purpose. This is one of the reasons why Sephiroth is more dangerous than JENOVA as humans are more dangerous than animals when it comes to the same thing of talking about the will to decide and all. Sephiroth helps JENOVA indirectly and simply because his abilities lead to the same thing as it did for JENOVA: Becoming stronger. But that is not the fault of JENOVA itself but simply because "becoming stronger and ruling this and that" is a classic villain plot. So of course he does exactly what JENOVA did. And he allowed JENOVA to reunte, sure. What kind of problem is that for him? No problem at all. He was able to use the parts and JENOVA is the being most similiar to him. It is no wonder he has such a connection to it. And no, I don't mean the cells and all. If you are a perfect experiment and can resist JENOVA you can intentionally use its powers other than those who have their cells and use some powers unintentionally. No wonder Sephiroth uses them. His will is strong enough to use them and he has the arrogance to make himself the Chosen One, even if he is not what he first thought he would be. You are right if you say JENOVA lives through Sephiroth but that is not the same.

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Originally Posted by The Man

The company can say whatever the smurf it wants to say, and I'm perfectly free to ignore all of it since it isn't a creation of the entire team that created the original game. Sakaguchi may not have been the main writer but he certainly still made major contributions to the game. Without his involvement, every story development that comes out is not a creation of the entire team that wrote the original story, and thus does not wholly reflect the entire vision of the team that made the original game.

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I even said you are free to ignore things, not only because it is not the original team. That does not change that true remains true. There will always be axioms which cannot be denied - meaning you can but it will not change anything - and the original team not working for Square anymore does not change that the Compilation is as true as it can be, and yes, Kazushige Nojima being the main writer and still working for Square is very important because we have talked about things you have thought of probably being changed or things which probably are not official and they are. Every other thing is just an excuse for people to convince others that is does not count, look at Dragon Ball. Fans can ignore, but not erase or mak non-official as they don't have the money and not the rights. Published by Square and written by Kazushige Nojima is even a dual confirmation for what is official and what can be trusted.

Well, let's see.

Garland: turns from good to evil because of a reason that in hinted at but never revealed. He then betrays his kingdom out of sheer personal greed, and attempts to ruin the world in order to make himself immortal. Not really a nice guy.

Mateus: one of the most power hungry villains in the whole series, he's also ruthless and incredibly twisted.

Xande: you only face him once in the whole game, and his character sums up to "resentful at being stripped of his immortality as a reward for his accomplishments, so he decides to return the universe to nothingness and summons forth the Cloud of Darkness". Shades of Kuja maybe, but I'm really not sure how to deal with this guy.

Zemus: a genocidal maniac, a huge racist, and a sadistic mind poisoner. Yeah.

Exdeath: not relatable in any way.

Kefka: immature, power hungry, devoid of any remorse, and needlessly cruel and sadistic. he is admittedly very unstable of mind. One of the best villains since I really love to wreck his face,but more on that later.

Sephiroth: very three-dimensional and understandable, but hardly sympathetic at all.

Ultimecia: she just doesn't make sense, really. I'm not sure how some of her actions in the game are supposed to influence her main goal in any way, or even what that goal translates to exactly. What we do know of her character isn't exactly heartwarming though.

Kuja: Petty, weak of mind, narcissistic and devoid of empathy.

Yu Yevon: It's unclear how aware he is of his crimes, if I remember correctly. Seymour is utterly delusional and dangerous, but I'm not sure how convincing his reasoning is within the game.

Vayne: Megalomaniacal, dishonest, dictatorial and incredibly evil. Though he does share a commendable goal with Venat, who apparently decided to repay him as due. A complicated situation.


Okay, so most these guys are utterly bad people. But the thing is, I like it that way. Of course, it's better for a character with this degree of influence on the plot to be three-dimensional and complex. However, a well-written conflict should make you root for the heroes to win. There are exceptions, but for the most part a good antagonist should be someone you don't like, not someone you like. At least that's my view of things.

Seymour's parents weren't awful. They were actually good to him, he was just a spoiled brat.

EDIT: Sephiroth, you are the biggest FF Fangirl I've ever seen.

Seymour's father exiled him and his mother from their home due to racism.

His mother killed herself in front of him.

They were pretty terrible.

I don't think she killed herself in front of him. And I don't think they were exiled. Everything seems to support he grew up in Guadosalam.

No, she was amazing. She knew that she could protect her son AND Spira better if she SACRIFICED HER LIVING BODY AND TRAPPED HER SOUL IN A STATUE FOR ETERNITY. That's not being terrible, that's being completely selfless.

EDIT: I did a search, and you're right about him being exiled. But I've still got nothing to show that his mother killed herself in front of him.

Final Fantasy X Playthrough - Part 129, Zanarkand Dome, Interior - YouTube

She seems to be in the process of being turned into a Fayth/dying right there.

I think we've had this argument before (although I could be misremembering) but the very strong implication is that she's Seymour's Final Aeon. Which means she essentailly told her son that he had to go and kill himself and only then would people accept him.

And so? The fact that she was willing to sacrifice herself to make her child's life better in whatever way isn't being terrible.

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Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs

And so? The fact that she was willing to sacrifice herself to make her child's life better in whatever way isn't being terrible.

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I don't know if that goes down as good parenting. Having mummy sacrifice herself so you can get a big monster instead of being there just doesn't sound too good.

I didn't find Kefka to be particular three-dimensional, complex or sympathetic. He was just a nutter. Yes, he was supposed to be a manifestation of nihilism, but so was Tyler Durden, and Tyler Durden was much more relatable. Then again, if I played VI without the massive hype that goes with it, as well as with a better translation, I might have found the experience a lot better.

Sephiroth I think of as the most well-developed villain. The way that Square build him up is pretty impressive, what with the mentions that are dropped of him in Midgar, and then believing it was him that wrecked havoc on the ShinRa building is quite a build up. Then you have the flashback to Kalm and you do feel some sympathy towards him as he realises that he is just some genetic freak that had been engineered by someone he hated.

Ultimecia is interesting from a story point of view. She is horribly underdeveloped and her motives are pretty unknown, but what I did get from the script is that she is very similar to Squall in that she too was hurt by loss. From a story point of view, it makes it interesting: she is what Squall was like before he met Rinoa. Maybe he too would have turned out like her in different circumstances.

Kuja is just immature. Knowing he's going to die is hardly any reason to act the way he does.

Seymour is a bit of a weirdo in general, but there is some sympathy towards him because of it. As mentioned above, his parents aren't going to win the prize for parent of the year, but there aren't any clear reasons why wanting to destroy the living is a good idea to him. At least Kefka was nuts.

Shuyin is also immature. People die. Get over it. But then again, he stands opposite to Yuna in that she also lost someone she loved, but instead of spending forever getting bleak about it, she's moving on.

I liked Vayne as a villain. He is misguided, power hungry and the ends always justify the means for him, but those are pretty human qualities. XII has grown on me as the years go by and I find that it plays almost like a political drama.

Barthandelus was quite cool for me. Not a great villain, but I quite liked the whole Fal'Cie treating humans as livestock that they can use as a sacrifice. A bit like the matrix. Also, like all of the villains here and most villains in general, very misguided in his desire to see his God again. Orphan also interested me. He was just so tired of being this power source that he wanted to die.

I agree with you that it wasn't necessarily good parenting, however, in my opinion I don't believe she was terrible, as she sacrificed herself for the greater good.

I think that Kuja is the most sympathetic villain for me. Even if his story is a bit unbelievable, at the heart of it, it's about being used by the person who is supposed to protect you/your parent. He finds out that he was never even cared about, and was in fact regarded as a failure.

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Err, no. Even if a guy who is called Justin Steinway (example) would make the retcon it would be official as long as he has the right to do it. That is how the world of money and law works. Own a brand, own the rights. People just say that if they don't like the changes. You have the right to ignore them but that does not make them non-existent when it comes to what is official. Companies have rights, companies decide. Not the fans - except when the company says "it is up to the player". If Square suddenly sells the rights for Final Fantasy VII to other people those peoples' story changes are not canon? That is not how it works. And in case of Final Fantasy VII it is not a problem at all because the most important person for the story is not Hironobu Sakaguchi, but Kazushige Nojima and he still writes the stories.

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The company can say whatever the smurf it wants to say, and I'm perfectly free to ignore all of it since it isn't a creation of the entire team that created the original game. Sakaguchi may not have been the main writer but he certainly still made major contributions to the game. Without his involvement, every story development that comes out is not a creation of the entire team that wrote the original story, and thus does not wholly reflect the entire vision of the team that made the original game.

And I'm sorry but I couldn't get through your wall of text in your second paragraph.