RPGs the Essentials

So I am currently working on a school project using a program called Adobe Captivate (don't ask me why I am taking this, it wasn't my idea) and it is basically a teaching tool that builds learning programs similar to power-point but closer to those obnoxious computer teaching aids you see in museums or at office training seminars. Anyway, my topic is "A Brief History of RPGs" and I thought it would be interesting to hear how people would try to teach someone the basics about the genre. What is important in establishing what an RPG is and what would you use for examples. It may or may not make it into my final project but I thought this would make for an interesting topic for the new RPG forum.

I'd think first and formost you'd have to discuss their origins in tabletop RPG's.

Also there is discussing the various types of RPG's that exist, and the originals.

You had their original start (Or at least when they started gaining some steam) whith Richard Gariott's Ultima series, and how that insipred Hylude (I might have spelled that wrong), a game that kicked off the popularity of RPG's in Japan, who became massively influential in the Genre.

That would be a good area to start I guess. :p

Wizardry might also be a title to mention, as it, along with Ultima as Cracker mentioned, are often cited as inspirations for the original Dragon Quest.

Something else that may be worth discussing is how the role the story plays in RPGs has evolved from early dungeon crawlers and games like the original Dragon Quest to now, and how that may have influenced other genres.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

I'd think first and formost you'd have to discuss their origins in tabletop RPG's.

Also there is discussing the various types of RPG's that exist, and the originals.

You had their original start (Or at least when they started gaining some steam) whith Richard Gariott's Ultima series, and how that insipred Hylude (I might have spelled that wrong), a game that kicked off the popularity of RPG's in Japan, who became massively influential in the Genre.

That would be a good area to start I guess. :p

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NeoCracker, I am shocked at you.

First, the game you meant was Hydlide.

Second, as long as we're talking about the history of RPGs, we need to discuss the difference in conception between western RPGs and JRPGs. They are very different, and that's because they had different origins. Western RPGs did indeed develop from the pen and paper adventures of games like Dungeons and Dragons. However, most JRPGs actually developed from visual novels (look into it, even Square had a huge history of these before Final Fantasy). Hence, the incredibly different approach to the games. Western RPGs tended to focus on more open-ended, explorative adventures, while JRPGs were more scripted, story based affairs.

Inspiration for pretty much every RPG is traced back to the likes of Ultima and Wizardry, not Graphic Novels.

Yes, Square may have done them before working on their RPG's, however that doesn't really mean much. Hell, before Elder Scrolls Bethesda worked on Sports games. I really doubt you would call Sports titles inspirations for RPG's because of that though.

It basically started with the more open-ness of the Western RPG's at the time that started everything (Nothing compared to the open-ness of some later games, mind you), and then became more of the narrative focus then the open world focus.

This isn't to say that the Visual Novels didn't have impact, but it's clear the sources they drew the most inspiration from was Wizardry and Ultima, meaning they too got their start from Pen and Paper RPG's.

So really we havent' seen a real division of JRPG and WRPG by the time Ultima came out, since JRPG's hadn't even started to get into their swing yet. Until the release of Hydlide, there really isn't anything noteworthy to distinguish the different styles yet as there simply hadn't been that big of an RPG boom yet.

Hell, I dont' even know if today you'd call the original Ultima games WRPG's. If anything that was kind of the blurred line between, and after that point the eastern and western cultures began to diverge.

Ultima is definitely more WRPG than JRPG.

Anyway, while JRPGs may have stolen mechanics from their Western counterparts, the direction of the games that they took was vastly different, mostly due to the differing heritage and unfamiliarity the Japanese developers had with the pen and paper RPGs that spawned the series. Hence, the greater focus on scripted plot. Hydlide may have helped start RPGs going in Japan, but it didn't take long for them to shape up into a very different beast.

Oh I know they took a vastly different direction, I was just saying that regardless of that the roots come from pretty much the exact same spot, and that didn't really start until after that initial crop of RPG's, which I hadn't really gotten too. I just set a beginning foundation on the topic. :p

why would you do this wolf kanno, you know like next to nothing about rpgs :confused:

^True, but he is Top 10 Favorite RPGs.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

why would you do this wolf kanno, you know like next to nothing about rpgs :confused:

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I don't, figure I should break out of my rut and try to talk about something I don't know about. You know, just a change of pace to liven things up. Attachment 53452

My next question for you peeps to mull over since I'm working on this section anyway right now, is how you would define the differences between western and eastern style RPGs. Is it simply geographical or would you say there are greater differences beyond where the game originated from?

As I'd pointed out, Western RPGs derived very clearly from D&D, and they tend to follow a similar focus of having players shape the world. Mass Effect may have been famous for it, but dialogue options have actually been around Western RPGs almost since their beginning. There also tends to be a heavier focus on stat and skill acquisition, especially on the non-combat front. You're more likely to see skills like hacking, stealth, or crafting skills in a Western RPG than you are a JRPG.

JRPGs, being derived from the visual novel culture of Japan, tend to have a lot more complicated stories, more and deeper character relationships, and an overall more linear structure. Exploration and a player driven world is swapped for more traditional storytelling. JRPGs also usually feature character parties, while a lot of the older style Western RPGs had a heavier focus on a single protagonist (who also tended to be more of a blank slate).

For examples, let's go with Skyrim and Chrono Trigger.

In Skyrim, you create your character, are thrust into the world, and told to explore it and make it your own. 90% of the quests will be completely missed if you just run from place to place, the game almost forces you to explore the world to truly experience it. Quests arise from reading journals throughout the world, or stumbling upon a coven of witches or similar villain nest. You have a ton of skills that work outside of combat, like blacksmithing, lockpicking, etcetera.

Now, look at Chrono Trigger. There's still a lot to explore and a lot to find, but the focus is different. The story itself progresses in a fairly linear fashion. You immediately get a party that begin to interact with each other and the NPCs in the world, because the relationships are a primary part of the game. You don't get as much freedom to shape the world or the factions within it, you're playing through a storybook for the most part. What control you have over teh story is merely in what quests you choose to complete, and when to fight Lavos to determine your ending.


There is no "perfect" example, because the two genres have been closely related enough to intermingle pretty much since they were created, but I hope that gives you some idea of the differences.

I think you are still vastly overstating the difference in the genre's source material.

D&D, as well as many table top games, pretty much make up the core combat of both genre's. In terms of story, they aren't really built specifically to be one or the other in terms of game play. Many table top games can very easily go the route of what you would expect in a JRPG, a linear story set up by the DM the players are following along. (Hell, this is the very core of how pre-made adventure paths have always worked.)

And having complicated and deep stories isn't something exclusive to JRPG's over WRPG's, so attributing that to Graphic Novles is pretty silly. While not as much in it's infancy due to system constraints, when you get to games like Ultima IV and V there are some very deep and immerse stories go on in those games with some pretty heavy themes.

The differences in writing styles seem more explained by the kinds of teams working on them.

Specifically, Richard Garriot specifically went in with the intent to make games without any kind of writing backround.

Sakaguchi, over at square on the other hand, was a professional writer when he was brought in. Well, Sakaguchi wasn't the writer, but that's kind of beside the point. :p

Also, when he was no longer a part time employee, they took inspiration form the success of not their previous works (None of which were all that big), but success of Enix's Dragon Quest, a game which itself has no real roots in Visual Novels at all, but with the Wizardry games. Mind you, DQ is pretty much the prototype for the JRPG genre.

The tighter focus on a story seems to have a lot more to do with Their premise of having the writers, programers and artists working more closely together then the Visual novels they made.

Really both styles of RPG's routes are pretty much identical in nature.

The difference was Square's Philosophy at the time to involve the different parts so much, which led to the stories being more focused.

Compare that to the western developers, a lot of which didn't really make use of professional writers in the way Japanese developers did (HEll, Richard Garriottes first game published was made only by himself).

I think the differences are pretty arbitrary because the various subgenres within each are all over the place, looking almost nothing alike and some of them overlap between Japanese and Western (ex: first person dungeon crawlers have a longstanding tradition in both). Even in Skyblade's comparison, Chrono Trigger is thoroughly dependent on the players choices and playstyle. Meanwhile, the players impact on Skyrim is actually minimal - you only really choose which quests to lock out, as they each end almost exactly the same every time, especially the main quest. The world doesn't change all that much except for the random NPC who comments on it. I remember Markarth changing very little even after all this insane stuff with the Forsworn went down.

The real differences are superficial things like setting and inspiration - you're more likely to see Elves and Orcs in WRPGs. Japanese games tend to have a more cosmpolitan take on mythology and world building, which is probably a reflection on their culture.

JRPGs were very very much rooted in the same origins as WRPGs, those being things like Ultima. They took that idea and made games in the Dragon's Quest/Final Fantasy vein on the one hand, and the Nobunaga's Ambition style on the other. There were always JRPGs influenced by visual novels and stuff, but Skyblade is vastly overstating their importance.

I'm not meaning to attribute JRPGs to the visual novel market itself. More that the reason they developed that way was because of the cultural shift in what was expected and known in gaming at the time. The style of fiction and of storytelling was much more popular over there than it was over here. Heck, even before there were pictures to go along with them, text adventures over there took the same direction, while we had games more akin to Zork (which wasn't exactly huge on the character interaction).

I'm not arguing as to the importance of the visual novel industry itself, but rather of the cultural shift it represented.