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Ramza is the legit best protagonist. Fight me.
You're not going to hear any arguments out of me. :wcanoe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Pretty much
Ramza is without a doubt, one of the worst protagonists in the series.
no u
I shall have to summon the EoFF Secret Police to whisk you away in the dead of night to a Ramza Reducation Centre where you shall drink milk and naught more until your views align with the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I mean, Ramza spent the entire game enabling Delita, and that sounds like exactly the sort of policy he'd enforce. So, sure. Sounds right.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticI shall have to summon the EoFF Secret Police to whisk you away in the dead of night to a Ramza Reducation Centre where you shall drink milk and naught more until your views align with the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I find your total lack of empathy for and absolute vilification of Delita incredibly disturbing, considering the broad shades of gray the game is painted in. Ramza did far more. There isn’t much “enabling” to speak of as Ramza simply had nothing to do with Delita’s rise to power as he dealt with far worse stuff in the meantime, disregarding the fact that his name got sullied in the process. He is the only truly selfless FF protagonist, embodying kindness and virtue in a world of backstabbing and manipulation for one’s profit. How you can twist that into “worst protagonist” is just beyond me.
No, I’m not empathetic towards Delita. Just like he has no empathy for anyone else. He’s a self obsessed sociopath who didn’t give a damn about anyone except himself and his sister. When she died he went on a massive revenge trip in which he didn’t care who got hurt, or who died, as long as he got to punish those who opposed him. He even wound up letting the evil cultists stay in power as long as they supported him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Ramza is the only protagonist who decided to give up and let a villain win. “Screw it, I killed this demon, I don’t have to give a damn about what happens to the country.” He didn’t do anything to stop any of the harmful political groups. He didn’t even shut down the psychotic, demon worshipping church of Glabadabados. He got into one fight, then ran off on his Chocobo while a malignant narcissist who shouldn’t have survived the first five chapters conquers the country, murders innocents, and rules with an iron fist.
“Oh, but he’s my friend.”
Ramza is the only FF protagonist who’s not a hero. Every other main character tries. Ramza gives up.
And don’t give me that “shades of grey” malarky. That’s just an excuse. Or maybe Ultima was just misunderstood as well? Maybe he shouldn’t have done anything, since there apparently is no right path and it’s all just shades of grey.
Yes, every side in this story had its issues. Ramza could have tried to fix them. But he didn’t. It wasn’t his problem. He had a chocobo to ride, after all. Can’t let helping people interfere with his leisure time.
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Originally Posted by Skyblade
I am so triggered right now.
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=...%2F992.gif&f=1
I honestly cannot agree with anything you said, Sky
EDIT: I’ll just copy and paste what I said in Discord because I feel it merits discussion here as well :p
As for the Ramza thing, it’s like saying “if I were there and had a gun nobody would have died”. Like, when you look at it from the game’s perspective, Ramza had zero reason to kill Delita. Whenever they met, they just talked. And his machinations were so complex that Ramza couldn’t know what to think of them, and there were far more important things for him to focus on. And up until he stabs Ovelia (which was done in self-defense, since she stabbed him first and he probably bled to death right after that anyway), the only people he kills are corrupt church officials and politicians who were much worse for Ivalice than him. Was it because you grew attached to Ovelia that you make out Delita to be a much bigger bastard than he actually was? Or is it a need for a clear human villain in a story where there is none and the only pure evil comes in the form of demons, because the story’s conflicts parallel real life issues where there never are clear good guys and bad guys and just killing what you consider a bad guy never really solves anything? I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Delita’s methods were manipulative and backstabbing, but how he got to that point was understandable and tragic. Though he dirties his hands a lot, aside from making himself king, he did make Ivalice a better place by disposing of the most corrupt individuals (and yes, by Vagrant Story the Glabados Church has weakened in power significantly). FFT is not a tale of a hero disregarding the real villain. It’s a tragic tale of two friends drifting far apart from each other due to clashing ideologies and different reactions to trauma. I think nothing is more telling of that than the very end where Delita sits there, wondering if Ramza got all he wanted. Because Delita did. And he still feels hollow. So reducing such a complex, nuanced, human character into a sociopathic villain is completely missing the point of the whole story. And while I’m at it, so is framing Marche as the villain
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/...h-difference#1Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
"Both lack empathy, the ability to stand in someone else’s shoes and understand how they feel. But a psychopath has less regard for others, says Aaron Kipnis, PhD, author of The Midas Complex. Someone with this personality type sees others as objects he can use for his own benefit."
Okay, so he's a psychopath, not a sociopath.
The entire game, Delita only cares about two people. Himself, and his sister. No one else exists for him. Or at least, not as people. They're objects, tools. Nothing more. Things to be used and discarded. And, once discarded, they are worthy of no further thought. He stabs Olivia, and she's there bleeding out before him, probably still alive, gasping for air, choking on her own blood. Not a thought. Not a concern. Not even a twitch. He just goes back and thinks about himself.
There's something to be said that in Chapter 1, Delita and his sister are truly meager. Tietra (or Teta, if that's you thing) is regularly harassed by the nobles at the academy her and Alma attend. Delita's common blood means that the lives of his ilk are of no concern to the aristocracy, but the privileges he has from serving them means that the revolutionaries see him as a class traitor, and thus he can't appeal to them for sympathy. Tietra's death is the result of a society that not only doesn't want the Heiral's to succeed, but one that's actively rooting against them; his options are to be subservient or starve. He sees other people as tools because HE'S treated as a tool. Furthermore, Ovelia stabbing him came as a complete shock to him, and the time it takes between her death and his final line of dialogue (22 seconds, 12 of which are spent on him glancing down at her, the rest are him turning to leave before collapsing, yes I counted) can mean anything. Anger, grief, disgust, shock, pity; it's hard to tell; Jun Akiyama is an amazing Event planner/director, but he is still working with sprites in this game. His expression seems sad, but that could just be a result of it being a "critical condition" sprite.Quote:
The entire game, Delita only cares about two people. Himself, and his sister. No one else exists for him. Or at least, not as people. They're objects, tools. Nothing more. Things to be used and discarded. And, once discarded, they are worthy of no further thought. He stabs Olivia, and she's there bleeding out before him, probably still alive, gasping for air, choking on her own blood. Not a thought. Not a concern. Not even a twitch. He just goes back and thinks about himself.
Attachment 75131
Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that her death DOES affect him. In theater, long pauses usually denote a character's reaction to events on stage. He doesn't just stab her and think "well, there goes another puppet".
The point of my post isn't to defend Delita though; it's to defend Ramza. He admittedly lets Delita get away with a lot of things, but I can't really fault him for it. Ramza is just as disgusted with the system that failed Delita and his sister (unfortunately he doesn't really use his nobility to change things for the better, and by the time he's labeled a heretic, it's too late), so it's not like he's actually opposed to Delita's endgame. Furthermore, turning a blind eye to Delita just means having one less obstacle to worry about. Regardless of what you or he may think of Delita's actions (which are abhorrent, I can't really argue against that, nor do I want to), Ramza's only concerns are rescuing Alma and stopping the Church, and making an enemy of Delita would only hurt his chances of doing either.
Anyway, all this to say that yes, Ramza ordering milk at a bar is the goshdarn cutest thing in the entire Ivalice universe.