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1. How Ultimecia has Griever? She turned that steel lion symbol in a GF?
2. After Dollet mission, at the ball, where exactly is that place? its inside Garden?
3. Raine's last name is Leonhart?
4. Trabia Garden wasn't a Shelter, was it?
those quest. are lame indeed, jus in case... ah forget it:p
Answer 1: Uh-oh, this would mean going into the R=U theory, I don't want to start that again. But, I'll answer to second part of the kwehstion...Doomtrain becomes a GF from a ring, why not Griever?
Answer 2: Yes, in the ending, you'll find that the hall in kwehstion leads to a balcony that protrudes from the side of Balamb Garden. Therefore, you can say that the hall is indeed inside Garden.
Answer 3: The game provides no answer to this kwehstion. Raine's last name could possibly be Leonhart. IF she is indeed Squall's mother. There's a theory on that as well. You could say her surname is Leonhart, although I like to think that Cid and Edea named Squall when he arrived at the orphanage.
Answer 4: No, seeing how Trabia doesn't seem to have an emergency "escape from missile attack" system, we can conclude that it was never a shelter.
1) I'm guessing that Squall has the Griever symbol as his personal 'icon' out of some sort of respect or reverence for lions. Most of the other GFs are well-known legendary creatures; for example, Squall recognises Bahamut as 'the legendary GF'. So it stands to reason that the people in FFVIII's world know about Griever, from ancient stories and legends. As the most powerful GF and lion, it would make sense for Squall to use Griever's icon to represent his own respect for lions. I mean, if someone really liked dragons, and wanted to wear a dragon-esque symbol, it'd be logical for them to use Bahamut, since he's the 'King of the Dragons'.
Griever's said to be 'the most powerful GF'; this is said by Ultimecia, and Squall also believes it. This shows that Squall already knew about the GF whose symbol he was wearing. Ultimecia would logically try to acquire the most powerful weapons on her quest for world domination, including magical 'tools' such as GFs.
Or it may be that Ultimecia deliberately sought out Griever, knowing that Squall would be intimidated by it. But how did she know? Rinoa got her powers from Edea, who got hers from some other sorceress but also from Ultimecia. Rinoa passed her powers on, and eventually they reached Ultimecia. Squall's conversation with Edea during the ending suggests that Sorceress powers carry some of the owners' memories with them. Notice how Edea says "You're that boy from the future?" right after she gets Ultimecia's powers? This knowledge probably passed on to Rinoa, then eventually to Ultimecia. She knew who she'd inevitably face; she knew that he considered Griever to be the most powerful GF. She'd naturally want Griever on her side as a psychological and military aid.
Besides, it makes it more interesting to have Squall face the creature he thinks is the most powerful, and whose traits he respects so much that he's made Griever his 'personal icon'.
OK, to better answer your question, How Ultimecia has Griever? She turned that steel lion symbol in a GF?
Griever already existed as a GF, in my opinion. Squall thinks of Griever as 'the most powerful GF', after all. The symbol was made to represent the GF, not vice versa. Ultimecia has Griever because she likes powerful stuff.
2) Yup, in the Garden. On one of the upper levels.
3) That's the general consensus.
4) Well, it was definitely a Centra building - this can be seen from the architecture. There was probably nobody who knew how to operate it, though. Besides, they never knew the missiles were coming, so they had no reason to even try.
1) I agree with what Big D said - Squall's confrontation with Griever was just for dramatic purposes, and was Ulty's tactic of intimidation.
2) Upstairs it most definately was.
3) I'm a big fan of the theory that Raine's last name was Leonheart, and it does make sense - since Raine died giving birth to Squall (or so I believe), the people of Winhill most likely gave him his mother's surname, since Laguna had skipped out of town looking for Ellone and they never really liked him much anyway. They did, however, think the world of Raine, and I doubt they would have sent him off to the orphanage without some peice of his mother, even if it was only her last name.
4) Most likely, Trabia was a shelter, just like the Balamb and Galbadia Gardens. However, if you recall when the teams split up after escaping the prision, the missiles had already launched at Trabia. Irvine says something like, "I heard they we're launching at Trabia first, then Balamb." Then, missiles are heard launching in the distance. Supposedly, these are the ones that head for Trabia Garden. There isn't even any time to warn the students to evacuate, much less to morph their Garden - something Squall and everyone else don't even know about yet. Selphie wants revenge, so that's why she insists on being assigned to the missile base team. They try to deflect the missiles from Balamb while Squall and Co. go to warn the students to evacuate. It isn' t until Cid mentions something abotu machinery that the Garden is transformed, and even the headmaster wasn't sure what would happen.
I'll only mention question one because everything else has been mentioned and explained well.
I disagree with everything said so far on question one though.
It doesn't make sense for the ring to be like Doomtrains. There's no history given on it, and it would be a pretty huge coincidence for Squall to get it.
It doesn't make sense for Squall and everyone else to know about the Griever GF either. His conversation with Rinoa makes no sense if that were true. Instead of explaining that the ring is based on the most powerful GF, a huge winged 'lion', instead he just says he likes lions and doesn't mention anything else.
It doesn't make sense for Ultimecia to try to psyche out Squall with it either. He's fought his 'mother' after realising he knew his friends years earlier without memory, his world has been turned upside with his first love entering his life, then going into a coma, then releasing Adel, he then met a man from his dreams who turns out to be a president, and now his 'sister' has come into his life and sent him through time.
I'm sure he's going to be terrified by his ring.
I'm sorry, this is IMO one of the best indications of R=U there is, and I'm yet to hear a better possibility.
Well, he calls his WINGED LION icon 'Griever', and he also considers Griever the most powerful GF. We know these things as facts, not assumptions. It all in the game.Quote:
It doesn't make sense for Squall and everyone else to know about the Griever GF either. His conversation with Rinoa makes no sense if that were true. Instead of explaining that the ring is based on the most powerful GF, a huge winged 'lion', instead he just says he likes lions and doesn't mention anything else.
How, exactly does this support the forbidden theory? If R did = U, then she wouldn't waste time trying to 'frighten Squall with his ring', as you put it. There are times in the game when it's mentioned that Rinoa's powers will be passed on and eventually reach Ultimecia, who lives in the distant future. There's the fact that R and U have nothing in common - speech, motives, appearance, actions - which suggests very little connection. Besides, the game's entire romance aspect is rendered completely devoid of hope and meaning if Squall's just going to end up murdering his his girlfriend, who at some point is going to become a muderous witch.Quote:
I'm sorry, this is IMO one of the best indications of R=U there is, and I'm yet to hear a better possibility.
My theory about memories being carried in Sorceresss powers and passed on is kind of similar to R=U theory, but without the 'direct connection' between the two.
Interesting theory Big D. Certainly more plausible than the far fetched R=U.
As far as what Square were thinking when they made the game though I'd say that Griever is just a legendary GF. Supposedly the most powerful of them all. It therefore makes sense that this powerful and evil sorceress from the future went out to try and find him. And she did. She found the most powerful GF and made him her own. Seems perfectly plausible.
And don't forget that Griever isn't her only GF. Tiamat is described as a GF gone bad due to her control. Since this is the future it may even be a corrupted Bahamut! I wonder if there's a T=B theory? ;)
Just because it says in Squall's mind Griever is the greatest GF doesn't prove anything. Execpt maybe that it isn't the most powerful GF.
First of all as Squall never mentions it beforehand (or maybe at all other than Scan?), it seems reasonable that he could have just taken the GF the most powerful sorceress ever uses to be strongest.
Second if the leader of Garden, and someone not exactly known for having a wild imagination is the only person to hold this belief, it seems reasonable that it is not commonly held that Griever is the most powerful GF.
Seeking out things and using mystical memory powers on the off chance that it might freak out a mercenary who's been through all that Squall has (ignoring the others altogether)? You really see this as a sensible explanation?
I'm not going to bother repeating the whole R=U theory because people always just take small pieces and twist them and never try to disprove anything, however every example Big D gave to disprove it can be explained by watching Buffy Season 6. It won't prove anything, but if you watch it you should get my point.
Still don't think it works in favour of the R=U theory (a theory which just doesn't cut it imo).
Think about it - how many people knew about Omega weapon. A creature far more powerful than Ultimecia. A creature of immense power like this - you think there might be SOME mention of it somewhere. But no.
Granted it's not part of the storyline but just because people don't make a fuss about a GF doesn't mean it isn't powerful.
No-one mentions Eden - an incredible GF that can cause massive 5 figure damage. Shockwave pulsar - Quistis' most powerful move.
True, but if someone had directly asked about a picture of Omega or Eden without anyone mentioning what they were, or even that they were more than just pictures I would agree.
As it got closed before anyone could point out the obvious flaw in this 'proof' from MJN SEIFER:
Apparently none of the multiple people to answer in agreement noticed that anyone who is KNOCKED OUT in the final battle, are already recovered by the end FMV. Unless you want to start arguements about the end this is nearly as dumb as 'How come if Ulti dies Rinoa doesn't?'Quote:
Alow me to end the stupid "R=U" theory once and for all!!!!
If Rinoa is Ultiecia how come if ultimecia KILLS Rinoa in battle she is unefected?
So Ultimecia and Rinoa are 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE!!
I have had my say you can reply if you want or close this freid but I don't want people throwing "Facts" that the theroy IS true I don't want to rake up old graves....