I really don't understand how so many people like Bush...

Could someone please explain it to me?

I remember in March of 2001, thinking, "Geez, this idiot is going to start a war with China." It seems I was half right - I only guessed the wrong country.

For a moment, for the sake of argument, let's assume that he has always had the best of intentions. That when he led us to war, he really believed that Iraq had a nuclear program and ties with Al Quaeda (which, by the way, evidence points to, suprise, he didn't really believe it). If that was the case, why has he not at the very least fired, or demanded the resignations of, those responsible? People that forge intelligence documents like that, regardless of how high up on the governmental chain they are, deserve seroious jail time. But, "interviews with current and former intelligence officials and the other experts reveal that the Bush administration only culled the assessments that supported its position and omitted those that did not. The administration ignored, and even suppressed, disagreement within the intelligence agencies and pressured the CIA to reaffirm it's preferred version of the Iraqi threat."

Let's assume, that he had no idea what the situation at Abu Ghraib was (something which, again, evidence suggests he did know what was happening). If that was the case, then why has he not demanded the resignation of everyone in the Justice and Defense departments involved in the leaked memos for trying to legally justify the use of torture? Sure, no direct evidence links the two, but think about it. The army comes asking for advice on how to interrogate prisoners. The Justice and Defense departments suggest that the use of torture might be legal. Nearly a year later, it's revealed that prisoners are being tortured at Abu Ghraib.

Do you really believe it's coincidence?

Seriously, I even have a tough time believing that Bush is even a decent human being. The man to told the media about what was going on at Abu Ghraib deserves to be commended; and yet, he was punished by the army for it. As commander in chief of the army, Bush had the power to put an end to that. But, he didn't. Anyone who lets a man get punished for doing what was inarguably the right thing, when they have the power to correct the situation, is slime.

Bush himself isn't the only one doing a less than poor job; many of the people he picked for his aides and cabinet are just as bad. John Ashcroft is not looking great either. Probably one of the most famous, nefarious, and oft used quotes of his,

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Originally Posted by John Ashcroft

To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: ‘Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve.’

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Which is always compared to, and truly is chillingly similar, to

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Originally Posted by Herman Goering

…the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

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While normally you'd look at a quote and say that, while similar, does not truly speak volumes about the speaker, the case of comparing the two becomes far stronger when you learn that John Ashcroft authored a bill last year dubbed the 'Patriot Act II', which is like the original on steroids, and allows such things as secret arrests. The bill itself can be found here, and a rundown translating it from legalese can be found here.

There are other embarassing quotes from the Bush administration. From a recent article in the new york times, "In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''"

There's not really any way to make a joke about a top senior aide to the President saying that reality doesn't matter. In fact, again, another paralell. This time with the book 1984.

Then there's the other things that get lost, for example the fiasco with a constitutional ban on gay marriage, which he knew from the beginning would never be passed, and when there's more important ammendments that could be made, such as one that eliminates the electoral college. Or how, after being convicted of being a monopoly under Clinton's administration, Bush pretty much said to Microsoft "Just kidding" and their penalties were drastically reduced, along with other pandering to big business. Easily, one of the top 5 things we need in a president nowadays is the balls to stand up to, and heavily regulate, business. Particularly the large, multinational corporations that have their arms stuck so far up our government's ass that it fairly often looks like a macabre marionette. And then there's the fact that he's caused this country the largest defecit in history, while at the same time cutting taxes for the rich - you do realize that the government's going to have to pay back this money they're borrowing someday, and you do realize how they're going to get that money, right?

Not every single thing Bush has done has been a mistake. Appropriating money for fuel cell research was a great move, and I'd love to see the government actually make good on his promise that we'll send human beings to Mars within the next couple decades. But he still has made a lot of mistakes. And many of these mistakes have truly been big trouting mistakes.

Bush is an honest man with good intentions and tries his best to run our country. He sticks to his beliefs and for the most part knows what he is talking about to great length. He isn't stupid, he is just from the south...our society can't tell the difference and anyone with a southern accent is seen as stupid. Oh and he kicks arse.

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Originally Posted by superjchrist

The stuff about the tortured prisoners, memos, and the man who released the information

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Hmmm lets see. Government information is leaked to the public. Of coarse he would fire them. Info about enemy prisoners shouldn't be able to be accessed by enemy spies here.

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Originally Posted by superchrist

a constitutional ban on gay marriage, which he knew from the beginning would never be passed, and when there's more important ammendments that could be made,

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Well, weather it is important or not to you is your opinion. And frankly I dissagree with you.

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Originally Posted by super jesus

There's not really any way to make a joke about a top senior aide to the President saying that reality doesn't matter.

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I realy don't like the way the above article was paraphrased. It makes me think that there was much more that was worth while to the conversation that was cut off. It keeps you from understanding what was going on there. What was he saying when he was cut off? I don't trust the writer of this article. I want to see this discusion unedited and quoted word for word. Now understanding what he said takes alot of brainpower because what this guy is saying is pretty deep. You can't just quote one thing he said "reality doesn't matter" and mock him with it. I think he meant that the rules are always changing and they are the ones that change them. Like a gaming company trying to balance classes in an MMORPG. You get used to your class and study the stats you have and what you can do. One day you wake up and the rules are changed....you now have a fiireball spell instead of a flamethrower. You must learn how to use this...and your reality has changed.


I can't go on, your statements are just so bias and I don't think you know of what you speak.

*takes a break and gets some popcorn*

For one thing, Bush is not from the South. The fellow went to Yale and only moved to Texas later in his life, so don't buy into this life-long cowboy story his people have sold you. He's just as educated as Kerry is, but for some reason it doesn't manifest itself in public.

Now here's the thing with Bush. He's a decent enough person, but it's his Cabinet that scares the living heck out of me. Show me one person who can actually say they'd trust Dick Cheney to even babysit their children, to say nothing of the entire country. I was a big fan of Rumsfeld pre 9/11 bcause he was a straight shooter, but even he has fallen into this endless speculation and for lack of a better word, out and out lying about the activity going on and to me, I think that's a product of being a part of this Administration. Rove, Ashcroft (Who by the way is being replaced if Bush gets re-elected), Wolfowitz, even Rice who I can't trust anymore after watching her give two exact opposite answers the SAME day on first CNN and then Fox News.

In fact, to me, the only sane member of this cabinet is Colin Powell who has been really the only member that has come close to apologizing for any mistakes made during this Administration and thus, it should come as no surpirse that he's not staying on for another term if Bush wins.

Let's be frank here, every President and every Administration makes mistakes, but what separates the good from the bad is taking responsiblity for these mistakes and I've yet, in almost 3 years, seen any one of these people hold themselves accountable. They've gotten good at holding others responsible, but never themselves.

Part of this problem in my opinion is Clinton's doing, as he set the bar for deflecting responsibility and we as a nation have really now come to accept this which we should not. Granted, what Clinton did was not merit for impeachment in the fact that he engaged in an affair, but for not taking responsiblity for his actions, THAT, to me is the sign of a weak leader, or in fact, a politician.


As for the question of WHY Bush is popular, it boils down to one thing, and one thing only: Religion. This Administration has played the religion card to death and it seems that anyone who believes in God MUST therefore vote for Bush because he uses his religion to make decisions. To me, that's a disasterous way to run a country as religion should ALWAYS, ALWAYS be seperate from politics, yet that seems impossible now.

Also of note, the Republican party has, by far, the best spinsters in the business. They can turn a fact in a heartbeat and change perspective on something without mercy. They've completely trumped the Democrats in this election on image selling, on talking points, and on those stupid 527 ads, which should be banned by the way. The Democrats have showed next to no spine and have allowed themselves to be defined by what the Republicans say they are, which is a paradigm switch from what it used to be.

Also of note, I still don't understand how anyone, ANYONE can listen to or trust the Bush Administration if they let John O'Neill or Zell Miller become spokespeople for them. O'Neill is about as blatant a liar as you'll ever find, starting with his time spent in the Nixon cabinet during Watergate and Zell Miller displayed exactly the opposite of what it means to be a rationale, sane human being, to say nothing of a leader or politician. His speech was really just a hate-filled message disguised as a proclaimation of Republican superiority.

Which brings me to this: this may come as a shock to many people but neither side is always right. The Republicans have made it seem as if they're infallible despite any evidence otherwise and have made it seem as if the Democrats know absolutely nothing when in reality, it's almost always 50/50. Politics is about ideas and about issues, but it's become far too personal for my liking. We're all just people, regardless of one's ideology and this election has widened the crack between both sides so much that I really do fear for the future of this country.

What we need is someone who does not have a cloudy agenda for the future and neither candidate fits this bill, spinsters be damned. We need to really find someone who has ideals for bettering not just America, but the entire world because, though we try to make it seem otherwise, America IS a part of the world and we'd better begin to head back in that direction instead of further separation or this will be one slippery slope all the way down to eventual decline.

Take care all.

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Originally Posted by TasteyPies

Bush is an honest man with good intentions and tries his best to run our country. He sticks to his beliefs and for the most part knows what he is talking about to great length. He isn't stupid, he is just from the south...our society can't tell the difference and anyone with a southern accent is seen as stupid. Oh and he kicks arse.





Hmmm lets see. Government information is leaked to the public. Of coarse he would fire them. Info about enemy prisoners shouldn't be able to be accessed by enemy spies here.



Well, weather it is important or not to you is your opinion. And frankly I dissagree with you.



I realy don't like the way the above article was paraphrased. It makes me think that there was much more that was worth while to the conversation that was cut off. It keeps you from understanding what was going on there. What was he saying when he was cut off? I don't trust the writer of this article. I want to see this discusion unedited and quoted word for word. Now understanding what he said takes alot of brainpower because what this guy is saying is pretty deep. You can't just quote one thing he said "reality doesn't matter" and mock him with it. I think he meant that the rules are always changing and they are the ones that change them. Like a gaming company trying to balance classes in an MMORPG. You get used to your class and study the stats you have and what you can do. One day you wake up and the rules are changed....you now have a fiireball spell instead of a flamethrower. You must learn how to use this...and your reality has changed.


I can't go on, your statements are just so bias and I don't think you know of what you speak.

*takes a break and gets some popcorn*

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:love:

Eh, I don't like Bush - I just dislike Kerry more :)

The gay marriage ban talk was not my suggestion on whether or not having one would be ok (though I feel that the government has no business legislating things that are, even the most conservative christian would say, matters of basic morality; and that many others would say, are matters of basic choice), rather, what I was saying is that he wasted at least two weeks of our time pushing an amendment that everyone knew, himself included, would never pass. A terrible waste of time which, granted, was on a far lesser scale than the time wasted by impeaching Clinton; a situation that pretty much everyone had accurately predicted how it would go from the beginning.

I just want an explanation on why people like this man. Sure, you can ignore the quotes I posted since it's pretty well always possible to twist one around to get the message you want out of it (though I'm still rendered speechless by anyone saying that reality doesn't matter, particularly in the field of global politics). But how are people able to look past simple facts that have lead our nation towards disaster; that he outright lied, almost certainly knowingly, to the nation in order to start a war with Iraq. I certainly agree that the world is a better place with Saddam gone, but we should've waited until there was, y'know, real evidence he was once again becoming a real threat. And because of his gung-ho attitude, we're now embroiled in a guerilla war that's left over a thousand of our soldiers dead a year and a half after the war began, and over 100,000 Iraqi civilians dead. Seriously, I'm a reasonable human being. If I were an Iraqi citizen, I'd have been thankful that America kicked Saddam out. But after accidentally killing a hundred thousand civilians, I'd probably be joining the guerilla war against these assholes that invaded my country too.

There's no way I can imagine justifying punishing the man who told the media about what was going on at Abu Ghraib. He did what was necessary to make sure that the abuses, which you cannot claim were anything short of evil, stopped, and that we as a country honor the Geneva convention. Reporting it to his superiors was certainly not doing anything to end it. So he did the next best thing. And with high ranking members of the Bush administration trying to legally justify the use of torture roughly a year earlier, I find it hard not to believe that knowledge of what was going on went all the way to the top.

And then there's PATRIOT II, which was written by his attourney general, John Ashcroft, which would dramatically broaden the scope of the already unconstitutional Patriot Act, and would establish that the government could secretly arrest people. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't secret arrests one of the defining features of Russias KGB and the Nazi's SS?

Like I said, I don't think every single thing he's done has been a mistake - the two things I named were what I could name offhand, and I wouldn't be suprised if I could find a couple other things if I went looking for them. I just want an explanation on how people are able to look past the lying (and I don't mean something little like lying about an affair, I mean lying in order to start a war), the attempt at justifying torture, the blatant disregard for the constitution, and the corporate ass kissing, among other littler things, to see a decent president.

*Bows down and worships the wisdom of the Captain.*

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Originally Posted by TasteyPies

Bush is an honest man with good intentions and tries his best to run our country. He sticks to his beliefs and for the most part knows what he is talking about to great length. He isn't stupid, he is just from the south...our society can't tell the difference and anyone with a southern accent is seen as stupid. Oh and he kicks arse.

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Wow...I thought this was a serious thread...not a sarcastic joke thread.

And Dubya is from Conetticut(sp?)...last time I checked, thats not in the region reffered to as "the south".

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And then there's PATRIOT II, which was written by his attourney general, John Ashcroft, which would dramatically broaden the scope of the already unconstitutional Patriot Act, and would establish that the government could secretly arrest people. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't secret arrests one of the defining features of Russias KGB and the Nazi's SS?

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Will it really allow for secret arrests? I should probably research more beofre I make this statement, but whatever.
If this allows for secret arrests, and it passes, it's time for a revolution.

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Originally Posted by Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003, aka PATRIOT II

Section 201: Prohibition of Disclosure of Terrorism Investigation Detainee Investigation

In certain instances, the release of information about persons detained in connection with terrorism investigations could have a substantial adverse impact on the United States security interests, as well as the detainee's privacy. Cf. North Jersey Media Group, Inc. v. Ashcroft, 308 F.3d 198, 217-19 (3d Cir. 2002). Publicizing the fact that a particular alien has been detained could alert his coconspirators about the extent of the federal investigation and the imminence of their own detention, thus provoking them to flee to avoid detention and prosecution or to accelerate their terrorist plans before they can be disrupted.

Although the existing Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) exemptions 7(A), 7(C), and 7(F) (5 U.S.C. § 552(b)(7)) permit the government to protect information relating to detainees, defending this interpretation through litigation requires extensive Department of Justice resources, which would be better spend detecting and incapacitate terrorists. This provision thus establishes a specific authority under Exemption 3 of the FOIA to clarify what is already implicit in various FOIA exemptions: the government need not disclose information about individuals detained in investigations of terrorism until disclosure occurs routinely upon the initiation of criminal charges.

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Thankfully, this bill never passed and probably never will, since it was drafted early last year and still hasn't passed.

However, if it were passed, the combination of powers granted by that bill along with the original patriot act is more than enough room for abuse. All they would need to do to secretly lock you away for life is to say that they're investigating you as a terrorist. That bill has a provision that allows them to revoke your US citizenship if you are being investigated for terrorism, the passage I just quoted would allow them to secretly arrest you, and then with the patriot act currently in force, they can hold you indefinitely without pressing charges.

I am atheist. But tonight... I think I'm gonna pray to the American Gods (Rumsfeld, Bill Gates and so) to, for once in their lives, enlighten the American people and lead them to... P-E-A-C-E
Think of it. P-E-A-C-E.
Peace.
Sounds nice.
Peace....

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President Bush was born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut, and he grew up in Midland and Houston, Texas.

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http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html

I smell Holocaust: Act II with that new "Patriot" Act. With all these new amendments, the Constitution will soon be voided. I wouldn't be surprised if someone was arrested for drawing a picture of Bush as a monkey in the near future, if Bush is re-elected.

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For one thing, Bush is not from the South. The fellow went to Yale and only moved to Texas later in his life, so don't buy into this life-long cowboy story his people have sold you. He's just as educated as Kerry is, but for some reason it doesn't manifest itself in public.

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He's totally right. It's fact that Bush was in that elitist society known as the "skull and bones" when he went to yale that's purpose is rumored to be to put members into high positions in society (e.g. president of US) of course , something like that is a real drag on the cowboy george dubya bush that we've come to know. Anyone's guess is as good as any, but the fact that the average well-to-do good ol' boy from texas image would be typically favored in the polls over someone who openly touts having graduated from yale isn't anything new.