human rights

apparently in this time which is different from anything else ever tackled before human rights need to be "suspended"

guantanmo bay in cuba arrests, tortures and holds without trial, media or lawyers,

america has already past an act "for the defense of the homeland" which includes arrest and holding without trial, the closing down and arrest of organisations and the censorship of the media

in britain the government in trying to push through an act which allows house arrest without trial by the government not judges. "for the protection of the nation and it's people"

and in europe there is a country just passed an act "for the protection of the people and the state" allowing incarciration without trial, state control of the media and government control of the courts.

the latter of those is in fact a lie. that act was passed nearly 70 years ago in 1936 in germany by an overwhelming majority in the reichstag, people at the time felt genuinely scared of communism and "the jewish problem". it wasn't signed out of hatred, greed or manelovence. it wa signed out of fear that the country was under genuine threat.

it may seem unplausible to say that our governments are at all like nazi germany, but then again in 1936 germany was still a democratic state, that changed with the above act. and we're not always going to be ruled over by labour and bush. but these acts will always be in place and there is no gurantee that our governments will be drastically different in 10 to 20 years time.

and why just now should people who have not yet stood trial be treated in the dehumanising way they are in guantanmo bay? why should america send suspects to suadi arabia, egypt, pakistan, to be badly tortured?

what gives us the right to suspend human rights of these people? it's not like they are guilty, many have been released to tell the stories of their torture. and you don't release men that you think are guilty, these men though signed confessions under torture but still we're released. so why continue with a system that obviously doesn't work?

human rights now are being ignored as "times have changed" times haven't changed. we fought the germans from the brink of defeat and didn't need these laws. we aren't on the brink of defeat here we are scared of a very small organisation that most the public knows very little about. me i'm more scared of having my door kicked down, taking to egypt tortured, then taken to cuba, held and tortured without seeing or talking to the outside world for 3 years than having a plane driven through my back window.

Frankly, I'm with you on this one. These investigative powers have gone WAY too far, and though I'm not exactly a fan of terrorists, I'm even less in favor of just being dragged off and never heard from again. Actually, not so much of a risk for me, I'm white. Meaning I'm not high on the suspect list. But, still, it's sick and I'm don't like it.

I dont believe this is the first time any country has done this, because its foolish to say that America or any country in particular hasnt done this in some sort of fashion. All i can say is..i agree with you and that its sad people still do these things.

I gotta say even though i think the war on Terror is mishandled and at sometimes a "witch hunt" i dont think that they should compramise American Citizens safety for people they have reason to beilve are Terrorists.

cloudsquallandzidane so then would you be happy either yourself or one of your friends or family dragged of to egypt or quantanamo bay for 3 years without ever seeing a lawyer or talking to anyone you know, not knowing what you are to be charged with and then tortured into a confession, if they or you were suspected of being a terrorist? this isn't some made-up what-if scenario plenty of people have been released without charge from quantanmo bay after being held for 3 years and have suffered greatly as a concequence, mental and physical problems, loss of their jobs, income, suspected from anyone you live near of being a terrorist.

and i think to say torture of prisoners is okay as they are suspected terrorist is two faced to say the least. look at the first and second world wars, no matter how evil the nazis were they were good to pow's and we were good to them if they were taken prisoner. there was no torture, you were only allowed to ask a few questions of them, their name, rank and number. and we both stuck by that no matter if he knew were the german v2 and v1 bases where, no matter if he knew where hitler's bunkers where it was accepted that those were the rules of war.

we aren't fighting against some great demon evil as many people lead us to believe. we aren't fighting against men with absolutely no sense of humanity. these are men who are doing what our soldiers are also doing, fighting for what they believe in, they're not crazy or evil. noone blows themselves up or kills civillians if they aren't extremely sure it will help acheive their aims. 9-11 wasn't some great unprovoked attack. it was an attack with a purpose and for a reason. it may not be the most ethical or agreeable reason but they believed in it as the nazis believed that bombing london was the right way to win the war and we thought dresden and hiroshima were good ideas.

so what gives us the right to treat these people worse than animals and take their, ours and my basic human rights away?

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

I gotta say even though i think the war on Terror is mishandled and at sometimes a "witch hunt" i dont think that they should compramise American Citizens safety for people they have reason to beilve are Terrorists.

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So then, I should just shoot random Christians I see walking out of church in fear and "likelyhood" that they're racist fanatical bastards that are going to shoot me if I don't?

This whole stupid war on terror thing is sickening really. And yes, it's a modern day witch hunt. And yes, the supporters of it are dumb/misinformed.

why is everyone soo racist in the world?

I've never agreed with the war on terror, or at least the methods used to fight it. Sure, I don't agree with what terrorists do, but I do realize that they're people as well. They believe in their cause just as much as Bush believes in his. Like Cloud No.9 said, they're not some great evil force,they are people, and they have their own reasons, though they don't really use the most effective methods of getting their points across. The actions of terrorists did provoke Bush's war on terror.

I'd say the laws passed are just as extreme as 9/11. They disregarded human life when they attacked the twin towers, but we're disregarding human life and human rights when we pretty much abduct people on shaky suspicions and then use them to try to frighten others into submission. It's just not right.

Ok, comparing Bush Adminstration to that of Nazi Germany....

Why the hell should POW have a trial and a lawyer, when there POWs. They have no rights, there in a prison, dont take that out of context, they have human rights. But being in a prison, or any U.S. prison for that matter, basically your stuck in there with your freedoms limited. I dont see how you can feel sympathy for all of them, sure some of them may be innocent. But these guys were found fighting against our troops over there. And if we release them, they might go back to fighting against our soldiers and killing them. Our own men and women that are over there in Afghanistan or Iraq.

And you talked about censoreship of the media, well most of the media is not censored. Well here in the States, its not like former Communist Russia. We have freedom of the press. And IMHO most of the foreign media is left-wing,
edit: and biased as hell.

noname; not all the people in guantanmo bay were caught in a battle, skirmish or even afghanistan or iraq. mozzam begg (i use his example alot as he is one the more publicised victims) had his door kicked in in pakistan and was abducted from there. He was nowhere near any battle of any kind and while he may have lived in afghanistan before doesn't make him a terrorist, before that he owned a book shop in britain. living in afghanistan is not a crime and he fled because his country was doomed to be attacked after 9-11.

and all pow's have rights as described in the geneva, eu and un conventions. they also have basic human rights which are also desrcibed in the above. being in prison also entitles you to those as well. being a prisoner in a jail or prison, a pow, or an enemy combatant still gives you the human rights given to you by those conventions. brach of that by your captives is breach of international law.

and what's wrong with left-wingism? and our media is far from biased.

and i didn't compare the bush administration to nazi-germany i compared it's laws to a law passed by "the greatest democracy ever conceived" as it was coined when it was created.

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i didn't compare the bush administration to nazi-germany

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Actually, given the "us-versus-them" attitudes, the denial of basic rights and freedoms, and the attacing dissenters as "un-American" (anyone else notice that this country was founded on dissent?), such a comparison wouldn't be too far off.

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Ok, comparing Bush Adminstration to that of Nazi Germany....

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That is a valid comparison. Everyone these days gets on people for comparing the two regimes... But if you look at history, and the facts of today, they are very similar.
I do agree that Buh isn't Hitler... But Karl Rove is a different story.

Noname, we can feel sympathy for these "terrorists" because they are human. Not only that, these people were fighting for thier country... Fighting against an invading army. An oppressor. They aren't like our soldiers. Many of these guys have done nothing wrong.

Yes, America is more free than many other countries. However, that is not a vaid argument. The fact is that America is less free than it was yesterday. That is not acceptable. All humans deserve total, unabridged freedom at ALL TIMES.