Crusader: Why so much work?

Does anyone else think that Crusader wasn't worth all the effort to acquire? After killing all 8 of the great drangons, some of which were quite hard, I was expecting an all-powerful summon, like Eden, or Knights of the Round (yes, I played FF 7 and 8 before 6). i was disappointed to find, however, that not only did it only cause around 5000 damage to the enemy, it caused damage to my party as well! i know that in general, Espers were fairly weak in FF6, but you would think that they could have made it worth the effort of wasting all those dragons ( not that killing them wasn't fun, mind you).

Also, the spells that it teaches you, merton and meteor, aren't anything great, the latter can be learned through Odin. Merton can be good if you equip fire absorbing shields to your characters, but why bother, when you have the option of learning Ultima much sooner by (SPOILER)taking the Ragnarok Esper instead of the sword.. The MP bonus isn't really that great either, since by the end of the game all of my magic users had economizers. Crusader does, however, have a rather cool animation when used, so I guess that does count for something.

Does anyone else have a take on this? Does Crusader have break damage limit or something like that? Is it just used as proof that you killed all 8 dragons? Does it have any use at all that makes it better than any other Esper?

Merton is a great spell if you equip everyone with Fire shields, because not only do you majorly damage the enemy, you cure yourself. It's one of the easiest ways of beating the game...

THE JACKEL

I agree with you, but it's still worth getting. If nothing else, just for the simple fact that it means you killed all 8 dragons. Meteor ain't bad, and you learn it fast...Odin teaches it to you, but I believe it's slow, and (SPOILER)if you get Raiden (which I would definitely suggest), you have nothing else that teaches Meteor except for Crusader. Merton, I never really liked, but as was pointed out, if you equip everybody with fire-absorbing equipment, it will cause damage to the enemies and heal your own characters.

Plus, I don't like empty spots in my Espers list.

Ace: We, ourselves, think that it is the way to prove to have slain all 8 dragons.
Eye: Yeah. And you might need Meteor.

Crusader has a number of purposes, some of which have yet to be explored. First off, it is a relatively powerful Esper. True, Purifier also hurts the party, but it makes sense to have an Esper that does so, since FFVI abounds with unfocused attacks (like Quake and Merton). While Meteor and Merton may not seem ample reward for defeating all eight dragons, there are several points to consdier. First off, Meteor is taught at a rate of x10. For a powerful non-elemental spell, this is an extremely fast rate of learning. Note that the only other way to obtain Meteor is thorugh the x1 learning of Odin (and this is lost when Odin is upgraded to Raiden, who instead teaches Quick). Well, Celes learns Meteor automatically at level 98, but that is a character-specific event. Second, Merton can only be learned from Crusader (well, Terra learns it automatically at level 86, but again that's limited to one character). While Merton can only be learned at a x1 rate, it is certainly a useful spell, especially when party members have fire-absorbing equipment. One aspect of Crusader not noted, however, is the inherent stat bonus. Crusader has MP +50%, which is the highest MP bonus in the game. By leveling up with Crusader, one can guarantee eventual 999 max MP in fewer levels, allowing more time to be dedicated to the other statisitcs.

In any case, as mentioned, Crusader does show that you managed to slay all eight dragons. While this may seem a paltry prize for such a task, consider, for example, Omega in FFV. Omega is a superboss (something FFVI was sadly lacking in), and your reward for taking it down is the Omega Badge. The Omega Badge has no purpose, other than to show that you successfully defeated Omega. Here, at least, you receive something with battle applications.

Hmmm, I don't know. While it's true that Quake and Merton also hurt your party, they differ from Purifier as they can be absorbed. Purifier causes non-elemental damage, so if your party has low HP, you could potentially loss the battle if you summon Crusader. It has been pointed out by a few people (including myself), that Merton can be used to both damage the enemy and heal your characters, but it would have made far more sense for it to teach you Ultima, the best spell, which you receive much earlier in the game, learn at the same rate, and you don't have to kill any optional bosses. The MP bonus ( which i did originally note), is rather substantial, but is almost useless later in the game, as you can easily get econimisers (well, sort of. Fighting brachiosaurs is always a pain) for all you magic users.

As for the Omega Badge, it was a piece of crap, but after beating the hardest boss in the game, what other items do you need? There are many more bosses more powerful than the 8 dragons (the rest of the bosses in Kefka's tower, Magimaster, Wrexsoul etc.) so I think it would be more appropriate to compare them to Shinryu. Shinryu was also a "super boss", yet when defeated, he gave you Ragnarok: the most powerful weapon in the game.

I can see what you mean with meteor, and I'm not saying that Crusader is completely useless, but I would think that the hardest Esper to aquire in FF6 would be the most useful. Espers like Ragnarok (Ultima), raiden (+2 vigor bonus and Quick), Bahumut (+50% HP is much better than +50% MP, plus you can learn flare) and tritock (+2 magic) I consider much better, and are much easier to aquire.

If Crusader could cause 9999 damage to the enemy or taught you Ultima ( I always take ragnarok as a sword), I would understand. Crusaders abilities make it a good Esper, but it's not the best.

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Originally Posted by masamune1600

Crusader has a number of purposes, some of which have yet to be explored. First off, it is a relatively powerful Esper. True, Purifier also hurts the party, but it makes sense to have an Esper that does so, since FFVI abounds with unfocused attacks (like Quake and Merton). While Meteor and Merton may not seem ample reward for defeating all eight dragons, there are several points to consdier. First off, Meteor is taught at a rate of x10. For a powerful non-elemental spell, this is an extremely fast rate of learning. Note that the only other way to obtain Meteor is thorugh the x1 learning of Odin (and this is lost when Odin is upgraded to Raiden, who instead teaches Quick). Well, Celes learns Meteor automatically at level 98, but that is a character-specific event. Second, Merton can only be learned from Crusader (well, Terra learns it automatically at level 86, but again that's limited to one character). While Merton can only be learned at a x1 rate, it is certainly a useful spell, especially when party members have fire-absorbing equipment.

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Boy, it figures somebody would have pointed that out already.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

I agree with you, but it's still worth getting. If nothing else, just for the simple fact that it means you killed all 8 dragons. Meteor ain't bad, and you learn it fast...Odin teaches it to you, but I believe it's slow, and (SPOILER)if you get Raiden (which I would definitely suggest), you have nothing else that teaches Meteor except for Crusader. Merton, I never really liked, but as was pointed out, if you equip everybody with fire-absorbing equipment, it will cause damage to the enemies and heal your own characters.

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Oh yeah.

Plus, I don't think there's really a need for "super-bosses". The WEAPONs in FFVII were just stupid, there was never a need to beat any of 'em, because it wouldn't give you anything you couldn't get otherwise. (With the exception of OMEGA.) There should be something that you can only get by defeating certain bosses, and those bosses shouldn't be something that you have to train the entire game for and spend hours looking up strategies. They take too much focus off the game, whereas the Dragons in VI are at least woven in to the storyline.

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Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

If Crusader could cause 9999 damage to the enemy or taught you Ultima ( I always take ragnarok as a sword), I would understand. Crusaders abilities make it a good Esper, but it's not the best.

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Everyone can still learn Ultima, even if you take Ragnarok as a sword. Uncursing the Cursed Shield gives one the Paladin Shield, which, among other awesome attributes, teaches Ultima.

Also, Terra automatically learns Ultima at Level 99.

As to the MP bonus provided by Crusader, I meant that it had not been stated that it is the best way to raise MP totals. While high MP is not really necessary if one has an Economizer, the bonus is useful if one wants to stat-max.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Plus, I don't think there's really a need for "super-bosses". The WEAPONs in FFVII were just stupid, there was never a need to beat any of 'em, because it wouldn't give you anything you couldn't get otherwise. (With the exception of OMEGA.) There should be something that you can only get by defeating certain bosses, and those bosses shouldn't be something that you have to train the entire game for and spend hours looking up strategies. They take too much focus off the game, whereas the Dragons in VI are at least woven in to the storyline.

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There was no Omega Weapon in FFVII. Omega (Weapon was not part of the name) was a superboss in FFV, and Omega Weapon was a superboss in FFVIII. Omega Weapon reappeared as a weak optional boss in FFX and a randomly encountered enemy in FFX-2. The Weapons which could be fought in FFVII were Diamond Weapon, Ultima Weapon, Emerald Weapon, and Ruby Weapon. There was a fifth Weapon, but it could not be fought, and is usually termed as either WEAPON or Sapphire Weapon anyway.

As to the question of superbosses, the whole point, I feel, is to present the gamer with an additional challenge. If you've truly mastered the game, it gives one an opportunity to prove that fact. Granted, the FF series has yet to create a truly challenging superboss, but it still takes a thorough mastery of the game(s) to come out on top. This is the reason why one is often rewarded with some item or title of no actual use upon beating one (Omega Badge, Dragon Seal, Proof of Omega, Mark of Conquest...that sort of thing).

As to the final point, I would point out that WEAPON/the Weapons were much more important to the story of FFVII than the Dragons were to FFVI.

There was actually an entire fmv and game sequence featuring the awakening of the weapons. Diamond weapon (SPOILER) even attacks Midgar and you have to stop it

My apologies, I meant Ultima Weapon, not Omega Weapon.

Isn't there quite a bit of dispute over whether or not Emerald Weapon is the one that tried to attack Junon? I don't like FFVII much, and I don't care to learn too much about it, so this is why I don't know these things.

And as for the relation of Weapons/Dragons to the storyline, how did the Weapons tie in to the plot? And what was the point of beating them? You couldn't get anything from beating them that you couldn't get through some other means, if I recall correctly. Not so with the Dragons and Crusader. Why can't a "mastery of the game" simply be shown with things like beating all of a certain type of optional enemy (Dragons in FFVI, Summoned Monsters in FFIV, etc.), or even gathering all of a certain thing, such as Magicite or even Materia?

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

My apologies, I meant Ultima Weapon, not Omega Weapon.

Isn't there quite a bit of dispute over whether or not Emerald Weapon is the one that tried to attack Junon? I don't like FFVII much, and I don't care to learn too much about it, so this is why I don't know these things.

And as for the relation of Weapons/Dragons to the storyline, how did the Weapons tie in to the plot? And what was the point of beating them? You couldn't get anything from beating them that you couldn't get through some other means, if I recall correctly. Not so with the Dragons and Crusader. Why can't a "mastery of the game" simply be shown with things like beating all of a certain type of optional enemy (Dragons in FFVI, Summoned Monsters in FFIV, etc.), or even gathering all of a certain thing, such as Magicite or even Materia?

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If there is debate over whether it was Emerald that attacked Junon, there shouldn't be. Saphire Weapon looks NOTHING like Emerald weapon, it's not even the same colour/shape. As for how the WEAPONS tied into the plot, (SPOILER)they were designed to protect the planet from any threats. This is why DIAMOND tries to destroy Midgar later in the game. All in all, they are much more important to the story of FF7 than the Dragons were to FF6. Hell, WEAPONS are more important to the story of FF6 as well, remember Atma Weapon? This boss actually has some dialogue, and reapears twice during the game (sort of).

....Isn't this all a bit off topic though?

Please keep this to a FFVI discussion.

I didn't really use anything Crusader gave me, but it's nice to get it just for accomplishment's sake.

Funny you should mention Atma Weapon... Well there IS a weapon in FF6. Now you may be wondering why doesn't Atma Weapon appear in any other Final Fantasy games? He does... The original Japanese name for Atma was Altema. The Japs would have interpreted Altema as Ultima, so, Atma Weapon was originally Ultima Weapon... That goes for the boss and the sword, just like FF7...