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I have a question that I'll probably come up with an answer to once I put it in writing but anyway; Why did Sephiroth wait till Aeris had finished praying to Holy to kill her? I get the feeling he could have killed her anytime he wanted to. Have I missed something here?
It was a tactical error that occurred as a result of hubris. He wanted to make Cloud suffer by forcing him to kill Aerith. He was pissed at Cloud for beating him in Nibelheim five years before, apparently, and it was too heavy a blow to his pride for him not to torture Cloud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Destai
To his surprise, Cloud resisted smashing Aerith beneath the Buster Sword, and he had to step in to kill Aerith himself, only for it to be too late.
He was late.
You know.
Late.
If it had happened to you, you would've been a little absent-minded.
And here I am, chiming in with the obligatory note that it was not in fact Sephiroth who killed Aeris at all, since he was currently encased in materia in the Northern Crater. Most likely, it was the shapeshifter Jenova, who chose to assume the form she knew would most strongly resonate with Cloud, although there are indeed alternate theories about who, exactly, it is that is responsible for Aeris' death.
Yeah I get it now, thanks. I only remembered now that Holy wasnt totally succesful once it finally was summoned so it wasnt any loss for Sephiroth to take his time killing her. Getting revenge on Cloud makes alot of sense. Thanks for clearing that up. And now I know what Hubris means. Hurray.Im pretty sure it was Sephiroth in control even do I agree with the belief that his real body was in the northern crater. Personally I think it was Sephiroth who killed her with Jenovas power.Quote:
And here I am, chiming in with the obligatory note that it was not in fact Sephiroth who killed Aeris at all, since he was currently encased in materia in the Northern Crater. Most likely, it was the shapeshifter Jenova, who chose to assume the form she knew would most strongly resonate with Cloud, although there are indeed alternate theories about who, exactly, it is that is responsible for Aeris' death.
I personally don't think Sephiroth was that powerful (to control Jenova). Geez, you never even see him again (after the Promised Land scene) until you reach the bottom of that crater.
But you know, that would be interesting. Sephiroth's supposed "control" over Jenova makes it seem like more of a tool to him than his supposed "mother." Makes him seem like that much more of a psycho.
You enjoy doing this, don't you. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by The Man
yes, I do. ;)
And I'm a lot more inclined to believe that it's Jenova who's controlling Sephiroth. She certainly spends a good chunk of the game misleading him (you know, the whole Freudian "mother" thing), and usually the one doing the deceiving is the puppet master in these things. I really don't see any evidence in the game to believe that Sephiroth is inherently evil. Just terribly mislead.
Well regardless of who is in control, it still could have been a desire of Sephiroth to make Cloud suffer, and JENOVA's actions could have reflected that.
Personally, I think that Sephiroth was more or less acting as the embodiment of JENOVA's will. In other words, what became his objective had been JENOVA's and was a plot more or less conceived by JENOVA, but carried out through Sephiroth, who was also conscious and acting, but based on a plot devised by JENOVA and given to him.
Certain things simply had to have been Sephiroth conscious and taking action, most notably all the work put into torturing Cloud. JENOVA would have had no reason to torture him so. Sephiroth's pride being hurt by Cloud when he beat him gave him plenty of reason to torture Cloud.
Cloud was being called to the Reunion the same as the other Sephiroth Clones, but getting him to follow hardly required rendering mental torment upon him. All that would have been necessary would be overriding his will completely and dragging him there, or showing him the image of Sephiroth on the horizon every once in a while. The entity tormenting him, however, obviously wanted him to suffer.
I believe Sephiroth continued to remain an independent entity until he and JENOVA merged at the end of the game (the process beginning in the Bizarro Sephiroth battle, in which we can see the two merging) and at that point, I feel that JENOVA's consciousness was taking over altogether, which would explain why the Sephiroth we see there said nothing, whereas the Sephiroth forms seen earlier wouldn't shut up.
Anyway, here's some thorough explanations of my views and why I hold them:
http://www.geocities.com/ff7analysis/control.html
http://www.geocities.com/ff7analysis/Symbolism.html
I don't really see much that appears to be a consciously thought out plan to torture Cloud, apart from Jenova's decision to assume Sephiroth's appearance. Then again, my memory of the last third or so of the game is rather hazy. For the most part, though, your assessment appears to be spot on.
Beginning at the Temple of the Ancients, Cloud's mind is entered and subverted upon occasion, even reducing him to babbling about getting the Black Materia and calling Meteor. Also, after he's forced to hand the Black Materia over, he's then forced to pound Aerith to a pulp and he has to be stopped by the other party members.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
Next, he's nearly forced to crush Aerith beneath the Buster Sword, and when he fights back, she's still killed right in front of him with there having been nothing he could do to stop it. He's then told that he's a puppet.
Next up, he's again told that he's a puppet, but this time he's led to also believe that he's not even a real person, but just a bit of JENOVA's Cells that had been infused with Mako and had taken on the form of an individual named "Cloud" based on someone from Tifa's memory. On top of that, he's told that he wasn't even a successful product of what Hojo was trying to accomplish with him.
He was lied to a lot, both by himself and Sephiroth, and he believed the lies. His mind is battered so greatly that he willingly hands over the Black Materia because he thinks it was his only purpose.
Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to look it over.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
wow, how just like me to completely forget that entire storyline. I always assumed that most of that was due to Jenova's meddling with his mind, though, but it's not clear how closely Jenova and Sephiroth worked in conjunction with each other. It would make sense for Sephiroth to still hold a grudge, but I always assumed the main reason Jenova had Cloud do all that was because it was expedient for her to do so. ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD
I didn't entirely understand the timeline towards the end of the game with Cloud's recovery at all. I suppose I really do need to replay FF7 in less of a hurry so I can absorb it better.
Wow, this is like The Jetsons meets The Flintstones.
yeah I know, me being lectured about something FF related is like bizarro world eyes on final fantasy. I feel ashamed of myself.