Technological advancement of FFVII's world

In science fiction/fantasy communities, it's a popular pastime to gauge the level of advancement of a particular group against that of others. I've been wondering where FFVII's tech measures up. Someone on another forum said it actually wasn't all that advanced; my senses balked at that, so I replayed parts of the game. There's some really sweet stuff to be had; Shinra has battle mechs (Guard Scorpion, the Gunners, Proud Clod, smaller enemies) and directed energy weapons aplenty, though by the time of AC they've pretty much all been destroyed. The only tech-based energy weapon we see in the whole movie is Barret firing his laser cannon at Bahamut Sin. The Highwind also has some good stuff onboard.

There's also the Sister Ray, arguably the sweetest piece of tech in the game. But all we know about the Sister Ray's power is that it pierced the shield at the North Crater. Was the shield simply being used to keep out trespassers, or did it have another purpose? That would help determine the Sister Ray's general power range, and by extension, that of a WEAPON, and in turn, that of the party and the world in general.

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Originally Posted by ?????

In science fiction/fantasy communities, it's a popular pastime to gauge the level of advancement of a particular group against that of others. I've been wondering where FFVII's tech measures up. Someone on another forum said it actually wasn't all that advanced; my senses balked at that, so I replayed parts of the game. There's some really sweet stuff to be had; Shinra has battle mechs (Guard Scorpion, the Gunners, Proud Clod, smaller enemies) and directed energy weapons aplenty, though by the time of AC they've pretty much all been destroyed. The only tech-based energy weapon we see in the whole movie is Barret firing his laser cannon at Bahamut Sin. The Highwind also has some good stuff onboard.

There's also the Sister Ray, arguably the sweetest piece of tech in the game. But all we know about the Sister Ray's power is that it pierced the shield at the North Crater. Was the shield simply being used to keep out trespassers, or did it have another purpose? That would help determine the Sister Ray's general power range, and by extension, that of a WEAPON, and in turn, that of the party and the world in general.

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Did you miss the whole "The Sister Ray killed two of the WEAPONS" thing?

didn't it only hit emerald? it killed diamond....

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Originally Posted by Sir Cloud

didn't it only hit emerald? it killed diamond....

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It killed Sapphire Weapon at Junon, then Diamond Weapon on the plains near Midgar. Emerald Weapon was underwater the whole time...

FFVII's technology is interesting. The fact that magic and technology developed alongside each other, and even overlapped, meant that there were some fairly unique arrangements in their world, such as machinery that uses magical energy (materia-equipped robots, for instance, as well as the rocket's on-board gravity). Mako energy itself is used as a fuel source, providing energy for mako reactors, ground vehicles, and airships.
Weapon development seems to have been affected by the world's unique conditions, too. When twenty-foot armoured beasts are roaming the place, something more than a small-calibre firearm is needed. Big swords may have remained in use because of this... yet every weapon type has its uses. The political climate of FFVII's world is totally different from ours, apparently. Since there doesn't seem to have been a feudal/warmongering era, there was never any need for huge armies to be given the most-efficient possible means of wiping each other out. This could also help explain why firearms didn't rise to dominance - not only are they less effective than edged/massed weapons against some natural enemies, they were never needed in order for the human populace to wage bloody warfare against one another... the result being a world where guns and swords are more-or-less equal, depending on the circumstances, and on the preference of the individual. It's interesting, though, that Shinra's elites prefer swords, while assault rifles are only used by the regulars.
The war against Wutai seems to be the only big human conflict in the planet's history, aside from Jenova's first appearance and the various skirmishes fought by or against Shinra. Since Shinra was originally a weapons manufacturer, it's presumable that a lot of their advances came about during that conflict. So you end up with an odd military - on the one hand, you've got an enormous cannon (the Sister Ray) which, when given additional power, can fire halfway around the planet; but the army's greatest soldier fights with a seven-foot sword and magic.

Some of Shinra's technology seems quite impractical and wasteful, too - like they just poured money into their projects without caring about efficiency. Notice how their first spacecraft has artificial gravity, and has a full life-support system that means the crew never needs personal oxygen supplies? The whole project would've been much quicker and easier if it followed the kind of developments that our space programs used. Also, Shinra's production cars are quite silly. Most of the cars seen on Midgar's streets (including those in the secret FMV commercial inside the Shinra building) are driver-only, regardless of their size. Huge vehicles, but only room for one. The blue ute stolen by the heroes is a slight exception, but also a silly design: it's got a tray, so it should be able to carry a load, but it's small and unstable. Then there's that enormous hog bike, as stolen by Cloud. Lots of power and lots of coolness, but little practical purpose. Shinra seems to focus on extravagance, and style over substance...

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

Did you miss the whole "The Sister Ray killed two of the WEAPONS" thing?

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Obviously not, but the problem with that is that it's pretty hard to guess what the chemical composition of a WEAPON's armor is, and thus hard to rate the gun's power using thermodynamic equations. Basically the only thing we can tell about them is an approximate height.

The terminology "magic" is questionable insofar as its actual meaning. Naturalism, the philosophical doctrine by which science operates, states that there is a natural reason for every possible occurrence; it's an extension of Occam's razor. Thus, things that might appear magical to us are either too far advanced for us to know how to use, or they're a result of the unique properties of that world. As Arthur C. Clarke once wrote, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." In the context of Final Fantasy, the best definition of magic is probably something akin to "feats that are only possible under isolated physical circumstances." The usage of Materia could be defined as an extreme circumstance; the average person isn't tripping over Materia wherever they go, and even if they are, it probably isn't anything useful. Even Cid Highwind couldn't land his mighty airship outside the Knights of the Round cave, because of the rough terrain; in order to obtain the uber-awesome materia, you had to have basically all the resources in the world at your fingertips.

As far as Shinra's space program goes, they quite simply had the technology and the money to make it work. That kind of thing can happen when you rule the world.

I wouldn't say that the war against Wutai was the only major conflict that VII's world has ever had. There are at the absolute minimum, 2,000 years of human history in FFVII to work with. In only the last six thousand years of our history, there have been about 15,000 wars; if we assume an equivalent average war per year value, that comes out to 5,000 wars. Crazy, ain't it?

u hav to think about this logically. sister ray totally removed sapphire weapon's head at junon. granted tht was very close range but still.

for diamond weapon, it travel a quarter of the way around the world and pireced straight thorugh diamond weapon, then still had enough power to travel half way around the world AND break the barrier around north crater. that is one strong weapon.

diamond weapon's armour is incredibly strong, considering how physical attacks would not even dent in in ur fight against it.

all these points were put together by square so that u subconsiouly recognise that shinra has more powered than it can handled, even if u don't recognise this consiously.

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The terminology "magic" is questionable insofar as its actual meaning. Naturalism, the philosophical doctrine by which science operates, states that there is a natural reason for every possible occurrence; it's an extension of Occam's razor. Thus, things that might appear magical to us are either too far advanced for us to know how to use, or they're a result of the unique properties of that world. As Arthur C. Clarke once wrote, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." In the context of Final Fantasy, the best definition of magic is probably something akin to "feats that are only possible under isolated physical circumstances." The usage of Materia could be defined as an extreme circumstance; the average person isn't tripping over Materia wherever they go, and even if they are, it probably isn't anything useful.

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"Magic", in FFVII, is helpfully given a 'scientific explanation'. Even though it's termed "magic", the game tells us that it's a perfectly explainable form of naturally-occurring energy. Even though it obviously doesn't apply to our own world, it works perfectly in the FFVII world - rather than just being an inexplicable "mysterious power". I particularly liked the way "magic" was so tied into various aspects of the plot - Mako energy, the Lifestream and the cycle of life, materia, mako-powered or magic-equipped technology... it was a nice change from the games where magic is just something that some people can do, but with no overall relevance to the game's plot or world.
Magic, even though it's a word for supernatural occurrences, is simply a name for a natural process in the game - probably a carry-over from earlier times when the forces involved weren't actually understood.

I thought I just said that, but I think you worded it better than I did. Feats that would seem magical to us are normal to the people in FFVII because of the understanding and energy that they have available.

The Sister Ray was still a projectile weapon at Junon, albeit a very, very powerful one, likely a large railgun. I have the video of it blowing off Sapphire WEAPON's head as proof of that.

How many years away would you say we are from being equivalent to FFVII in terms of technology? If the shield at the North Crater was something Sephiroth expected to use to survive Meteor, that gives a really good indicator of the Sister Ray's power, and in turn the durability of a WEAPON. The Sister Ray would have to possess power around that of a capital ship-grade turbolaser in Star Wars if the shield is indeed intended to block Meteor. The medium-strength gun used for ship-to-ship combat outputs 200 gigatons per shot, while the light point defense guns are in the kiloton range. The heaviest guns go into the teratons, which is the range of an asteroid impact. However, the Sister Ray is an exceptional piece of technology in its world.

In The Spirits Within, nuclear energy and spirit energy are held to be the same thing, but no reaction method anywhere near our disposal is capable of producing such amounts of energy; they've probably discovered something like a stable matter-antimatter reaction, or even some type of reaction involving a grand unified theory, since if they can produce these amounts of energy it's relatively safe to assume they've discovered it. The belief does lend substance to the belief that all life is connected; different arrangements of atoms, and their constituent particles, can form everything in the universe. If this holds true for FFVII, it would seem to suggest a kind of anti-nuclear message, or at least a message of environmental consciousness; give back what you take, and all that. This planet does have a limited supply of material that's usable in nuclear reactions, after all, though theoretically even a decent-sized ball of Play-Doh, enough for a kilogram, has enough mass-energy as defined by E=mc^2 to blow up Hiroshima over 1700 times.

Devil Phoenix, I'm talking about putting a quantitative ballpark on the world's advancement, not simply a qualitative one.

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If the shield at the North Crater was something Sephiroth expected to use to survive Meteor, that gives a really good indicator of the Sister Ray's power, and in turn the durability of a WEAPON.

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I'm not sure the barrier was meant to protect against the meteor's impact. From what the characters suggest (particularly Barret's dialogue after Tifa re-wakens at Junon), the barrier's just to protect Sephiroth from intruders, while he lies dormant in the depths of the crater, recovering from the massive expenditure of energy used to summon the meteor. Since he never bothers to re-establish the barrier, I'd say that he wasn't counting on it to ward off the meteor's destruction. The meteor was falling over Midgar, and Sephiroth was deep down in the northern crater... I don't think he'd have too much to worry about.

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How many years away would you say we are from being equivalent to FFVII in terms of technology?

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That's a tough call... in some ways, we're ahead of them. Our military technology is more advanced (ICBMs, laser guided weaponry, aircraft and so forth), yet they have machines capable of fighting without a controller. The computers at Junon and elsewhere are pretty big and early-1990s looking, yet they obviously know how to create programs that give limited intelligence to robots. While Cait Sith isn't a fully sentient robot, the fact that no-one gives him a second glance suggests that truly self-aware machines aren't unheard of. Different aspects of our world's technology and theirs need to be assessed separately, I think, since there's a lot of divergence between the two. The idea of any real soldier going to war armed only with a sword is ridiculous to us, but mainstream in their world. Our first spacecraft were primitive and simple, yet FFVII's first manned rocket had artificial gravity, a computerised HUD, and the ability to survive years of neglect. Various cultural, economic and other factors have changed the way technology developed, in our world and theirs. If Shinra had some major competition, it's likely that there'd have been less stagnation and more refinement of existing ideas. Similarly, our world could've had completely non-polluting cars twenty years ago if the profit motive had come second to environmental awareness.

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In The Spirits Within, nuclear energy and spirit energy are held to be the same thing, but no reaction method anywhere near our disposal is capable of producing such amounts of energy; they've probably discovered something like a stable matter-antimatter reaction, or even some type of reaction involving a grand unified theory, since if they can produce these amounts of energy it's relatively safe to assume they've discovered it. The belief does lend substance to the belief that all life is connected; different arrangements of atoms, and their constituent particles, can form everything in the universe. If this holds true for FFVII, it would seem to suggest a kind of anti-nuclear message, or at least a message of environmental consciousness; give back what you take, and all that.

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In TSW, spirit energy is used as a sustainable alternative to other energy forms, but it's unclear whether it's more efficient overall. Rather, I think it's the abundance and relative safety that made it the more popular choice. The movie mentions that the energy's generated from vats of micro-organisms; it's simply the 'energy of life' found in every living thing, much like the Lifestream in FFVII. Spirit energy is something with no equivalent in the science of our world; rather it's more akin to chi, or something similar - an invisible aura produced by anything that's alive. Rather than converting living matter into pure energy (like in a matter-antimatter annihilation), spirit energy can be extracted from living things (in the movie) or from its natural reserves in the Lifestream.
It's definitely at the core of FFVII's environmental message, since it nicely encompasses ideas such as sustainable energy, preservation of natural resources, and awareness of the dangers of radioactivity.

One has to bear in mind, as I believe Big D previously suggested, that Gaia followed a different path of development than did our Earth. While books/movies/games/assorted media with "medieval" or "futuristic" settings can be somewhat characterized by those blanket terms, FFVII presents a relatively modern world, though with technological tendencies that don't parallel ours exactly. Personally, I feel that the Gaia of FFVII was meant to reflect Earth at the time of its release, at least roughly. Again, as previously suggested, Gaia has some technology that we don't; we have some technology that Gaia doesn't. While I realize the point of this thread is to quantitatively determine the relative advancement of Gaia (apparently in terms of our Earth), I honestly feel that Gaia is, in this sense, meant to be a rough approximation of Earth circa 1990-2000, only (once again) with a different path of development.

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Originally Posted by ?????

though by the time of AC they've pretty much all been destroyed. The only tech-based energy weapon we see in the whole movie is Barret firing his laser cannon at Bahamut Sin.

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Actually, very mild Advent Children SpoilerBarret's "laser cannon" used against Bahamut TREMOR is a Limit Break, probably a reinterpretation of Big Shot. That's beside the point, though; a fully functional artificial hand that can unfold into a powerful weapon is itself emblematic of some fairly advanced technology.

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Originally Posted by Big D

materia-equipped robots

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With the obvious exceptions of Cait Sith No. 1 and Cait Sith No. 2, robots do not seem to directly utilize materia. Materia is, ultimately, crystalized Spirit Energy, and the fact that robots, as manufactured, inorganic creations, do not have Spirit Energy would seem to preclude such use. While Cait Sith would seem to be an exception, one must remember what the starter manual to FFVII suggests.

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Cait Sith rides around on the back of a huge stuffed Mog he magically brought to life.

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Not only does this suggest that Cait Sith's origins were different than those of other robots, we must remember that almost every robotic enemy encountered in the game seems to operate via artificial intelligence. Cait Sith is Reeve's vicarious battle incarnation, and as such the ability to use materia is probably derivative of his Spirit Energy.

It's very likely that Mako-related technology could have been employed, but robotics in general probably doesn't use materia.

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Originally Posted by Big D

The war against Wutai seems to be the only big human conflict in the planet's history, aside from Jenova's first appearance and the various skirmishes fought by or against Shinra.

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Originally Posted by ?????

I wouldn't say that the war against Wutai was the only major conflict that VII's world has ever had. There are at the absolute minimum, 2,000 years of human history in FFVII to work with. In only the last six thousand years of our history, there have been about 15,000 wars; if we assume an equivalent average war per year value, that comes out to 5,000 wars. Crazy, ain't it?

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As far as this topic goes, it's difficult to say, really. One would presume that other wars took place at some point, but the vast majority of Gaia's recorded history is unknown to the player.

I'd also like to point out that "magic," despite the fact that it is derivative from what can be called a naturally occurring energy force, has distinct and inarguable spiritual characteristics. While technological uses for Mako (which Shinra only brings about through an artificial process, although Mako can occur naturally) may continue to develop, "magic" itself is effectively immutable. The only real determining factors are one's knowledge/wisdom of the Lifestream, and one's Spirit Energy. Thus, while a natural explanation is given for "magic," it doesn't have to wholly conform to any sort of natural laws.

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In TSW, spirit energy is used as a sustainable alternative to other energy forms, but it's unclear whether it's more efficient overall. Rather, I think it's the abundance and relative safety that made it the more popular choice. The movie mentions that the energy's generated from vats of micro-organisms; it's simply the 'energy of life' found in every living thing, much like the Lifestream in FFVII. Spirit energy is something with no equivalent in the science of our world; rather it's more akin to chi, or something similar - an invisible aura produced by anything that's alive. Rather than converting living matter into pure energy (like in a matter-antimatter annihilation), spirit energy can be extracted from living things (in the movie) or from its natural reserves in the Lifestream.
It's definitely at the core of FFVII's environmental message, since it nicely encompasses ideas such as sustainable energy, preservation of natural resources, and awareness of the dangers of radioactivity.

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I don't have much to add here other than that Big D knows the score.

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With the obvious exceptions of Cait Sith No. 1 and Cait Sith No. 2, robots do not seem to directly utilize materia. Materia is, ultimately, crystalized Spirit Energy, and the fact that robots, as manufactured, inorganic creations, do not have Spirit Energy would seem to preclude such use. While Cait Sith would seem to be an exception, one must remember what the starter manual to FFVII suggests.

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Cait Sith rides around on the back of a huge stuffed Mog he magically brought to life.

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Not only does this suggest that Cait Sith's origins were different than those of other robots, we must remember that almost every robotic enemy encountered in the game seems to operate via artificial intelligence. Cait Sith is Reeve's vicarious battle incarnation, and as such the ability to use materia is probably derivative of his Spirit Energy.

It's very likely that Mako-related technology could have been employed, but robotics in general probably doesn't use materia.

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Hmm... a lot of Shinra technology is mako-powered, so I reckon it's feasible that materia could be installed in mechanical devices. Quite a few robotic opponents use magic, for example the various Sweepers which can fire the e-skill Matra Magic. If a robot's powered by mako, then it theoretically ought to be capable of using some of that energy to activate materia.

While it's rare for robotic enemies to use magic, it happens now and then - which suggests that it's at least possible, in some cirucmstances.

Yes, except that with the exception of Matra Magic, no robotic/machine opponent ever uses any sort of materia-derived attack. Matra Magic might possibly be usable without materia; it 'appears' as a missile-based attack, after all.

I really just don't think its possible for a completely artificial being to use materia. One or more materia could be installed in a robot, but without an actual connection to the Planet, I don't see how the magic could be brought out.

My computer fried, so I've been unable to respond to anything for several days.

I'd hardly say that our military technology is more advanced than theirs. Types of technology are generally immaterial when it comes to comparisons; it's all about the power that can be generated, and their tech's power generation far exceeds what we can do currently. They clearly do have many types of aircraft, including helicopters and jets, as well as massive and durable airships, something we lack. It seems fairly obvious that few if any ordinary craft could survive the kind of abuse that the Highwind took in VII's ending, considering that the surge of Mako directed enough energy to almost tear the airship apart. One might argue that the Highwind possesses shields of some sort, seeing as the WEAPONs repel its ramming attempts, but that's debatable; one might just as easily say that the WEAPONs have shielding, which isn't that hard to believe.

Mako does have to conform to whatever natural laws govern it; nothing unreal exists.

I didn't see any indication that Barret's laser was a limit break, but again, I don't have any of the guide documents for the movie.

One could hold that Mako is a form of chemical energy, if it's extracted from lifeforms. It seems to be able to produce power comparable to nuclear reactors, but I don't know enough biology to judge the validity of that.

As for soldiers and swords, most of them, including all mainstream Shinra personnel and even the Turks, fight with guns. Only special cases like Cloud and Sephiroth exhibit the kind of strength, durability, speed, and reflexes necessary to carry a sword to a gunfight.

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Originally Posted by ?????

As for soldiers and swords, most of them, including all mainstream Shinra personnel and even the Turks, fight with guns. Only special cases like Cloud and Sephiroth exhibit the kind of strength, durability, speed, and reflexes necessary to carry a sword to a gunfight.

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I'd disagree. All of the members of SOLDIER use swords - including the third, second and first class members encountered in the Shinra Building, Junon, and Sister Ray, respectively. None of the Turks use firearms: Reno uses a pommelled cattle-prod, Rude fights with his fists, and Elena seems to use explosives. Shinra's regular grunts use guns, grenades and rocket launchers.

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One might argue that the Highwind possesses shields of some sort, seeing as the WEAPONs repel its ramming attempts, but that's debatable; one might just as easily say that the WEAPONs have shielding, which isn't that hard to believe.

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Yeah, I think it's the Weapons that are shielded - Ultima Weapon, at least, which is surrounded by a 'barrier' of some sort when it blazes off into the sunset.

Shinra's military arsenal is an odd mix. Their helicopters are small and certainly nothing special; they don't even appear armed. The Gelnika airships are a large, sluggish transport planes. Apparently few in number, and quite crude compared to our own aircraft, but still capable of some fairly remarkable feats, such as taking off from a very short runway. The Highwind is definitely a one-off - the only airship of its kind. It's powered by Mako energy (referenced somewhere, but official), and can definitely take quite a pounding. It's beyond anything we've got in our own world, but - like the Sister Ray and the space rocket - it seems to be a case of one design that's been 'over-engineered'; a single idea having huge amounts of resources poured into it, to take it as far as possible. Where other Shinra technology is mass-produced, the biggest and best are very few in number, and the most remarkable are completely unique.

I thought FFVII was over all modern as opposed to sci-fi.