Spiran History

I'm working on a comprehensive History Of Spira, and I need a couple of questions answered.

1. Bevelle started the Machina War, but do we know why?
2. If Shuyin was busted trying to use Vegnagun and executed (along with Lenne), then why is there a sphere of him imprisoned in the gaol beneath Bevelle? Did he try to use Vegnagun twice or something?
3. How and why did Jecht get to Spira? Was he the first dream to cross over? Could any of the dream-denizens have crossed over? Why Jecht in particular? Was this Sin's first appearance in the fayth's dream, and if so, how was Sin able to cross into the dream? Also, since Auron was able to use Sin to cross into dream-Zanarkand, could any unsent have done it, or was it only because of Jecht being the first dream to become Sin?

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Originally Posted by Queen Anthai

I'm working on a comprehensive History Of Spira, and I need a couple of questions answered.

1. Bevelle started the Machina War, but do we know why?
2. If Shuyin was busted trying to use Vegnagun and executed (along with Lenne), then why is there a sphere of him imprisoned in the gaol beneath Bevelle? Did he try to use Vegnagun twice or something?
3. How and why did Jecht get to Spira? Was he the first dream to cross over? Could any of the dream-denizens have crossed over? Why Jecht in particular? Was this Sin's first appearance in the fayth's dream, and if so, how was Sin able to cross into the dream? Also, since Auron was able to use Sin to cross into dream-Zanarkand, could any unsent have done it, or was it only because of Jecht being the first dream to become Sin?

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No. Not in solid fact, but there are those who have the Ultimania guide. They might know more, and can expound on the rest of my explanation.

It's a Security Sphere, most likely. They probably didn't check closely enough the first time, if they could review it at all, until AFTER what had already happened.

Sin. Most likely, but it's possible he was not the first, not that anyone else did anything about it. The "toxin" would have made them forget anything. *cough* Yu Yevon *cough* regularly resets DZ *cough*

The fact that Sin can move freely between both worlds, leads to two conclusions:
A) DZ is actually in the middle of Spira's ocean, and cannot be accessed normally, yet it does exist (think Valinor in LotR; you could get there, but only if you were allowed)
B) DZ is only a series of pyrefly induced eventage, and since Aeons, Fiends, and Sin are made of pyreflies (or so we believe), it's possible for Sin to re-materialize himself anywhere, as the Aeons seem capable of doing
C) DZ could be both (A and B), there's no reason why it's not possible to have elements from either one

It's likely that Jecht swam out too far into the ocean (as they say in DZ), and encountered Sin by accident. This also supports and is supported by theory A. This explains HOW he got to Spira, although it was probably an accident. The time that Tidus was brought over, was planned (albiet loosely, and rag-taggedly) by Jecht and Auron, who had to make sure Yu Yevon didn't think anything was going wrong.

Auron can do anything because he is dead. Like all matter made of pyreflies, he is held together only by the memories of other people of him, as well as his own will to finish what Jecht wanted him to finish. Otherwise, he would be a fiend.

There are people who can better answer this than me (Auron's Ghost, Masamune-1600, and Renmiri), because they have the Ultimania, and are well versed in FFX symbolism and interpretation. Of course, this should be enough to get you started.

Here is what Ryu Kaze from Wikipedia translated from the Square Enix book Ultimania FFX2:

From Lenne's page (which is right next to Shuyin's; they share the same section in the book), here's a timeline of events involving the two:

Outline of events of 1000 years ago (< > denotes the related representation seen in-game)
*Lenne is a famous songstress in Zanarkand. Young Maechen was a fan of hers and shook her hand during an event
*The Machina War begins
*It is decided that Lenne will participate in the Machina War
*In an attempt to rescue Lenne with Vegnagun, Shuyin infiltrates Bevelle. He is arrested by Bevelle soldiers and placed in Bevelle's underground prison related by the "Journey's Start" and "Prison of 1000 years ago" spheres
*Lenne goes after Shuyin and infiltrates Bevelle
*Shuyin breaks out of the prison. He starts up Vegnagun, but while doing so, Lenne enters and tells him to stop; their pursuers then shoot them related by Yuna's dreams, the images seen during the concert, and the images seen in the sealed cave

[Tragedy of 1000 years ago]
In ancient times, in the summoner city of Zanarkand, there was a songstress named "Lenne" who was expected to face certain defeat in an upcoming conflict of the Machina War, and with the battle almost at hand, she was soon to be sent forth. It was then that the whereabouts of her lover, Shuyin, became unknown. In an effort to save his love, he had planned to take Vegnagun, the secret weapon of Bevelle [, their enemies]. Before long, a spy from Zanarkand brought news to Lenne that Shuyin had been seen, and she intuited that he planned to enter Bevelle. Just before Shuyin could activate Vegnagun, Lenne discovered him and restrained him, but immediately afterward, the lovers were attacked by Bevelle soldiers and killed.[/QUOTE]

google Ryu Kaze, Ultimania for more

Say, where can I get these "Ultimania" books, anyway?

Im not really sure, but I searched and I found 2 books for FFX.

A Scenario Book

and

A Battle Book

Im not sure if im any help cause they look like they are in Japanese...

Aye, they are in Japanese.

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

There are people who can better answer this than me (Auron's Ghost, Masamune-1600, and Renmiri), because they have the Ultimania, and are well versed in FFX symbolism and interpretation. Of course, this should be enough to get you started.

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hehe, I don't actually have the Ultimania Guides, what I know is from reading translations and debates such as this, :p But what you said is pretty much it...

I don't think the Ultimania's go into detail about the cause of the War.

I personally disagree with the Ultimania timeline for Shuyin's capture... It implies that when he was captured he did not know that Lenne was in Bevelle and therefore the dialogue in the Journey's Start Sphere makes little sense.

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Let me go. I want to see the Summoner. What would you do if she was your girl?

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(not a direct quote mind you)
I think it makes much more sense if they both reached Vegnaguns chamber, were shot, and only Shuyin survived, imprisoned, and later executed... but that is going against the Ultimania timeline so meh...

As Tavrobel said, Jecht swam too far out to sea one day, and encountered Sin. Because Sin is made of Pyreflies held together by a Gravity Spell, and Jecht is made purely of pyreflies, Jecht likely got stuck on Sin for a short while, eventually being dropped in Spira. It was purely accidental.

I don't see why other DZ citizens couldn't also make it to Spira by the same method... The only reason why we wouldn't know about them is because they weren't as lucky as Jecht, ie, shot, executed, mauled by a fiend...

The use of the word Dream is slightly misleading. I believe that the Ultimania's state that DZ is real. It is summoned into reality from the dream of the Fayth, much like other Aeons are brought into being by a Summoner summoning the Fayth's dream. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that Sin could come ad go as it pleases without having to cross into another dimension (though this would be against Yu Yevons interests to allow Sin too close as it would treat DZ like it did the real Zanarkand 1000 years ago) . Hence DZ is located in the physical world somewhere, and the only reason why Spiran's don't know of it's existence is purely due to the fact it is too far away. Normal Spiran's have little interest in exploring the ocean, and the Al Bhed would probably have some old records in their ships computers telling them that there's nought but water and thus wouldn't bother exploring it either, but that's my own theory as to why DZ is undiscovered...

Finally, as Tavrobel said, Auron is dead. It is only his will to keep his promises to his friends that he has remained on Spira. Otherwise I think he would have accepted his death and gone to the farplane, or just become a fiend if he had some hatred towards someone or something. As Auron is an Unsent, he is purely made of pyreflies, and like Tidus and Jecht, could ride Sin in the same way... and the same would probably apply to any unsent, fiend or aeon.

If someone with the Ultimania's can correct any of that it would be appreciated...

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

There are people who can better answer this than me (Auron's Ghost, Masamune-1600, and Renmiri)

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Wooo, being included in the same league as AG and Masamune is an honor, even though it is innacurate! :D

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Originally Posted by Aurons Ghost

hehe, I don't actually have the Ultimania Guides, what I know is from reading translations and debates such as this

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Aye, me too! AG and Masamune are frequent sources for me. Also, I was fortunate enough to know Ryu Kaze from the Wikipedia Final Fantasy project, who both has the Ultimania Guides and reads Japanese fluently. And is a very nice guy and answered any question I had :D . But he has "retired" from FF work for now due to family / work commitments. :cry:

PS: Before "retirement" Ryu posted all his translation work in - (shhh!) other places - so anyone can read it now.

PPS: Like Ryu Kaze, pmog and Hikoto also translate Ultimania stuff every once in a while, so google for them+Ultimania also

PPPS: As for the DZ / Jecht / Auron question, what AG said is how I understand it