Good or Bad? (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Unless you have beaten the game, I would recommend not reading this thread, seeing how it contains details as to the last boss and some major plot points. Now, you've got fair warning that there are major spoilers in here, so I don't want to hear anybody complaining if they read something that they weren't aware of. That being said, I will now continue to the point.















So, when you get to Vayne on the Bahamut, a small exchange is had that occurs I believe after you have defeated his first two forms. Venat tells him that he has liberated the humans from the Occurians. When I read that, I thought to myself, "You know, it's kind of true." I mean, after all the Occurians were convinced that they were going to shape Ashe's destiny and make her become the next Dynast-King (Queen... whatever), and during that cutscene they even said that they were the writers of history and that Venat had committed heresy by going against the Occurian way and trying to free the people of Ivalice from their grasp.

Obviously when Ashe chose not to take revenge on the empire that was a big step towards the races of Ivalice gaining their freedom, but several things that Vayne and the Empire did helped as well. For example, the creation of manufacted Nethicite (though made with the help of Venat) was a step towards freedom, after all, the Occurians used the deifacted Nethicite to control the humes and would not have wanted the humes to be able to produce it on their own. Also, the subsequent result of the use of manufacted nethicite was the ability to call upon the powers of Bahamut and use it against the resistance. So, Vayne actually did some good in the end. Despite his need for destroying any who opposed him, he also realized the need for the people of Ivalice to be free. So, I don't think he was entirely bad. What do the rest of you think about this?

I agree, I believe Vayne was doing everything for the good of Ivalice. He just had that tad ego issue (The whole trying to become a non sanctioned Dynast-King).His war was not really with Rozzario but rather the unseen hand of Ivalice. It struck a chord with me so it probably explains why I like this game so much. I also liked the whole Gabranth twist at the end.

I think Vayne's only mistake was witholding the truth about the existence of the Occurians. Of course, their is the chance that he knew no one would believe him. My only question is why Venat rebelled against his own race. I kept waiting for him to try to seize power for himself once Vayne bit the big one. Yet it seemed he really did actually care for the well being of humanity.

I was disappointed by the ending. I mean, Vayne was behind the murder of Ashe's dad, Vaan's brother, had some hand in manipulating Gabranth to frame Basch for murder, and killed his own father and brothers. The problem was, that by the time they reached Vayne, nobody even remembered any of that. The same thing happened with Cid, too; their evil deeds were either mentioned only once or just hinted at, so people think that Vayne and Cid are more ambiguous then they actually are.

As for Gabranth, I didn't think what happened on the Bahamut with him was much of a surprise. He was pretty conflicted the whole way through, especially after Judge Whatshername was killed. It was also clear his loyalty was much more to Larsa than Vayne. To me, the biggest shock was that Basch was so forgiving of him. It was nice to see, but kind of anticlimatic since their relationship was never much developed.

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Originally Posted by Timerk

I was disappointed by the ending. I mean, Vayne was behind the murder of Ashe's dad, Vaan's brother, had some hand in manipulating Gabranth to frame Basch for murder, and killed his own father and brothers. The problem was, that by the time they reached Vayne, nobody even remembered any of that. The same thing happened with Cid, too; their evil deeds were either mentioned only once or just hinted at, so people think that Vayne and Cid are more ambiguous then they actually are.

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I never felt Cid really did anything to begin with so he never came off as evil to me. Vayne is a bastard, but his actions seem somewhat justified. I think it's hard to argue with him after you actually meet the Occurians and they treat you like mere pawns. He was forced to do what he did cause chances were, neither Nalbina nor Dalmasca were going to allow a foreign country to borrow their national treasures. Vayne was sorta've just looking at the big picture and forgot about the little people.

Although, is it just me, or did it seem like Vayne knew he was going to die. The few scenes with him before the Bahamut arose, always gave me the impression that he knew he was going to eventually get killed. I felt like he chose to play the role of the villian in order to make Larsa learn what was important.

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As for Gabranth, I didn't think what happened on the Bahamut with him was much of a surprise. He was pretty conflicted the whole way through, especially after Judge Whatshername was killed. It was also clear his loyalty was much more to Larsa than Vayne. To me, the biggest shock was that Basch was so forgiving of him. It was nice to see, but kind of anticlimatic since their relationship was never much developed.

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They were family, it difficult to condemn his own brother, especially since his brother didn't even have him killed when he was held captive. I don't think Gabranth ever wanted Basch to be killed, he just wanted to punish him for turning his back on his homeland. Consequently, Basch feels the same way about Gabranth betraying his country. I think the real surprise was Basch assuming his brothers identity.

Well, the only real terrible thing that Cid had done was go crazy. At least, that's pretty much why he painted him out to be a bad guy. In Balthier's mind, Cid was horrible. Not because of what he had done to the people, but because of what he had done to him. Balthier painted a much worse picture of Cid than what he really was because of his own personal bias. As for Vayne, I didn't really get the impression he wanted to die, but maybe I'll beat the game again and watch for it. As for Venat, I think he realized that the Occurians had their own problems to deal with (such as their self-righteous, religious attitude that they should be worshipped, even though it never gave any clear indication that they had helped in the creating of Ivalice), and realized the only way to make them see this was to break thier grip from Ivalice's destiny. The best way to do this was to make the people of Ivalice realize they had free will, and considering Vayne was in such a position of high power, he seemed like a good choice for Venat to persuade him to break the Occurian bonds.