what's BAD about democracy(for once)?

people still earn money in a socialist society. it is just harder to grow because as well as helping yourself you help society. the rich still exist in socialist countries. richard branson isn't exactly starving due to labour's tax laws. and the ikea man isn't living on the streets of sweden.

lets take two people. bill and ben. bill is intelligent and is of very good ability. his father is a lawyer and his mother a doctor. bill wants to go to vetinary college to be a vet (a well qualified job). he can do this because a. he has the ability. b. his parents have the money.

ben could be bill's twin. he has the exact same IQ received the exact same grades in the exact same classes. but ben has a problem. his father disappeared when he was 3 and his mother suffers from mental problems and hasn't worked in years. but through that ben managed to achieve excellent grades. and with these grades ben wants to become a vet. but he can't do this. he has the ability and intelligence but the one thing holding him back is his parent's wealth.

so here we have an example where we have to exact equals except for wealth and that is the defining trait which means these people will succeed or fail in live. and this wealth isn't their fault or gain. but circumstance that has nothing to do with them.

they do not have an equal chance. ben never had one.

In America, Ben could still do it. I agree with a lot of the interworkings of the American Government for this reason. Now when you talk about our foreing policy, and Military, I am quite appauled.

America is not exactly socialistic, and it is not one to leave the screwed, well... screwed. At least, that seems to be the notions. Ther are som very prude practices going on that are questionable; but for the most part, America retians a good balance in my eyes.

Bipper

and how could ben still do it? gain an education he can't afford but is able to do?

and why are you appualed when i talk about american foreign policy? because of what i say? or what america does?

No no no cloud; I am not happy with our forien policy either. The more I find out, the more angry I get. There is some good out there, but so much more bad.

Anyways, to get the same education in America Ben would be able to get a lot of grants from the Government, and private institutions. This is almost a guarentee. Plus the government offers Creditless Financial Aid. Basically a long term loan, that does not take payments until 6 months after you are out of school. Making it VERY much possible for any Joe to make it into college. It is very cool imo.

Bipper

so all he needs to do is put himself into huge debt at 18? hardly an equal footing for two equal people.

Cloud, It's fine with me. The debt is not huge, and very manageable. Esspecially with someone whom now has a college degree. If you give everything to people, they will simply be ugreatful and want more. You are proving this to me.


Bipper

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

people still earn money in a socialist society. it is just harder to grow because as well as helping yourself you help society. the rich still exist in socialist countries. richard branson isn't exactly starving due to labour's tax laws. and the ikea man isn't living on the streets of sweden.

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Yeah, he's not living in Sweden at all, because Sweden's taxes are so high that running a profitable enterprise of any size is not viable.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

so all he needs to do is put himself into huge debt at 18? hardly an equal footing for two equal people.

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Which is why I'm not going to university yet. I'm going to get a less impressive, shiny job for awhile and be sensible with my money so that I can mitigate the cost when I do go to university. You have to make sacrifices. The answer is not for me to complain about how people aer stealing my jobs, not for me to complain about how some lucky git has the money for college and I don't, it's not for me to complain about how whatever profression I'm trying to get into (In my instance, writing) is obtuse and rigid. The answer is for me to work hard, spend wisely, and reach a position of strength and prestige so that my opinion actually matters (Because I've put two decades of work in.). Change doesn't happen instantly. Improvement doesn't happen instantly. It has to be earned.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

But what's the use? Self-respect, self-worth, self-responsibility, and integrity are concepts lost in this forum.

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Capitalism kicks ass, and so does judging stuff based on merit instead of need.

"Capitalism kicks ass, and so does judging stuff based on merit instead of need." since when was the amount your parents earn your merit?

i earned my place here at university. i worked through disability and a shoddy ned filled school. and for that i will not wait 20 years scrimping a wage in some dead end job and waste a quarter of my life trying to make something of myself. i and everyone else here earned there place based purely on intelligence and ability.

and sweden has plenty of businesses. founded, ran and working in the country and making a healthy profit.

...So, you'll just make other people earn it for you? Nice.

in the same way with my better job with my masters degree i will earn money for their pension, their health treatment and their children's education.

You know, you still haven't given a convincing argument on why I should give the money that I earn to people who don't.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

so all he needs to do is put himself into huge debt at 18? hardly an equal footing for two equal people.

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I'm doing it as we speak, and I'm not screaming at the rich to pay for it. I recognize that reality is reality and that just because there are people who are more fortunate does not mean that I have the right to point a gun at them and demand their wealth.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

since when was the amount your parents earn your merit?

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I explained that already.

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i earned my place here at university. i worked through disability and a shoddy ned filled school. and for that i will not wait 20 years scrimping a wage in some dead end job and waste a quarter of my life trying to make something of myself. i and everyone else here earned there place based purely on intelligence and ability.

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And blood, the livelihood of the very poor and the very rich.

actually hachifusa you never did explain why the rich by circumstance deserve more than the poor by circumstance.

and hachifusa as education is a founding human right then you have every right to demand it.

and since the very poor don't pay taxes (except vat which goes mostly into the army) i take nothing from them. just the rich who people like me fund by working for. think of it as a step up on the minimum wage.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

actually hachifusa you never did explain why the rich by circumstance deserve more than the poor by circumstance.

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Not deserve. They merely have it. There is no changing that fact, even if you pry it from their dead hands. I don't cry that others have more than me. I don't think comparatively. I work for my own personal effort.

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and hachifusa as education is a founding human right then you have every right to demand it.

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It's not a right. Read up on eighteenth-century philosophy of natural law - receiving an education is not a right. It's definately a luxury, and I would consider it incredibly important. Why, I'd take loans out for it (I am now, actually). But I don't demand it by right and then look for victims - I mean, progressive educators - to render their services free for me. Or a thug mob (i.e. statist government) to do it for me.

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and since the very poor don't pay taxes (except vat which goes mostly into the army) i take nothing from them. just the rich who people like me fund by working for.

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Do you believe you are more necessary than your employer to his business?