Remember, kids, America isn't supposed to do what it wants to do. America is supposed to do what the rest of the world wants it to do!
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Remember, kids, America isn't supposed to do what it wants to do. America is supposed to do what the rest of the world wants it to do!
yes in the same way germany was meant to do what the rest of the world wanted and not go on a world conquering quest with a bit of genocide. the rest of the world wasn't too happy with that. in the same way the rest of the world isn't too happy with america's breach of human rights, african genocide and aggressive tendencies.
the government didn't look to kill people. it just cared less.
my mob? you mean the mob that fought against facism and established the declaration of human rights? yeah cos that was such a bad thing to do....... declaring the rights for which all people are subject to was an evil. though of course america laughs in the face of even the most basic human rights. so it makes no difference.
Yes Cloud, the U.N. was quick to declare Darfur a genocide and has given the nations of the world the power and indeed duty to step in and put a halt to the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
To compare America to Nazi Germany, as you so commonly do, is a categorical insult to a number of groups. It is an insult to the people who dream of a better life in America (If it is so evil and terrible, why is it still the number one destination for immigrants on the planet?). It is an insult to all those who believe in America and who have faith in her, even those who feel she's on the wrong track now. It's an insult to all the people who fought against Nazi Germany. It's an insult to the millions who died because of Hitler. It's an insult to the millions of people in Eastern Europe who have spent the last decade and a half praising and thanking the US for finally ridding them of the USSR. It is an insult to every single American who just wants to go about their lives in peace - and that'll be a good 95% plus, I'll wager. It is an insult to the generations of people who have worked hard, and who have fought for their rights, who have fought or worked for their children and their children's children.
The large portion of the blame lies with the state and local authorities. Yes, Bush could have done more. No, he's not evil for thinking the storm had passed New Orleans without doing too much harm. (Especially not when the BBC, ITV, and Channel 4 were all saying "This is not the disaster which had been feared Katrina would cause." the night Katrina hit.)Quote:
the government didn't look to kill people. it just cared less.
Yet you rail against a nation of note which actually has an enumeration of Human rights, and a nation where these things are challenged in the courts on a regular basis. I'm in America right now. I know people throughout the country. I don't know of a single person who has been oppressed or tortured or illegally detained.Quote:
my mob? you mean the mob that fought against facism and established the declaration of human rights? yeah cos that was such a bad thing to do....... declaring the rights for which all people are subject to was an evil. though of course america laughs in the face of even the most basic human rights. so it makes no difference.
You forget - more likely don't care - that there are countless Americans who are against the war in Iraq. There are countless Americans who are trying to get the terrorists out of Gitmo and back to their homes. There are countless Americans who don't agree at all with how the country is going. America is not a neo-Nazi enterprise, but sometimes you look that way. You say 9-11 was the new Reichstag fire. But you also seem to say Americans are the new Jews and a new Final Solution is needed.
(Just to clarify, I'm not saying anything bad about Jews. I'm saying Cloud speaks of Americans as Hitler liked to speak of Jews.)
americans i have no problems with so don't dare say that i hate them and want to kill them.
the country i have problems with. and alot of it's soceity.
i would like to know how america has a good human rights record since it breaks a number of human rights laws. and for the record i will name the ones broken in camp x-ray alone. article 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13 and 14. such a lovely place is a country which breaks 9 out of 30 human rights laws. that is a huge 30%.
it is also a country which perpetuates the deaths of 50,000 people daily in sub saharan africa. you can say this isn't active genocide. but then you have to argue that the warsaw ghetto wasn't either.
i have nothing against you or any american. i have a problem with america. i do not call for a genocide in america. i call for it's system of government and the way america views itself to be changed.
now tell me why your country thinks that 50,000 people deserve to die for the sake of the american wallet.
People, first and foremost care about themselves. It's human nature. That said, most Americans don't think in those terms.Quote:
now tell me why your country thinks that 50,000 people deserve to die for the sake of the american wallet.
don't think in what terms? that their country is partly responsible for 50,000 deaths a day? or about themselves?
many people benefit from death as the holocaust showed. doesn't mean it was right or justifiable in anyway.
A bit of advice, Cloud Number Nine... don't, and I mean DON'T compare the USA to Nazi Germany, or even something that would hint towards that direction, not while I'm registered on this forum.
Then you ought to reconsider how you write about America, because it certainly seems that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
Most of which you see through whatever lens foreign people see American society. I doubt even I have a concrete or definitive view, and I've spent a total of a good six months not in a motel, not in Vegas, but with a fairly normal American family in a fairly normal American suburb. So your only reasonable objections are those to do with America's foreign policy. Edit: And I know a great many people throughout America as well. Many of them complain as fiercely as people from outside the US do, if not more so, and much more validly seenig as they're actually IN America and KNOW America and the details of the issues.Quote:
the country i have problems with. and alot of it's soceity.
5 - There's little proof that any torture is going on. Indeed there is a 'terrorist handbook' (For want of a better term) which states it is the duty of any taken prisoner to spread as many rumors about mistreatment as possible. The Koran being flushed down the toilet? Never happened, but you didn't hear the media apologies because it doesn't suit their agenda.Quote:
i would like to know how america has a good human rights record since it breaks a number of human rights laws. and for the record i will name the ones broken in camp x-ray alone. article 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13 and 14. such a lovely place is a country which breaks 9 out of 30 human rights laws. that is a huge 30%.
6 - How is this being violated?
7 - Erm, anyone can make a claim of discrimination, but there's no evidence of it here. There are only individuals.
8 - Well if you agree with the rest of them, and then feel people should be getting broken out of prison, this one is valid.
9 - A common error to consider it arbitrary. Out of tens of thousands of combatants, only a few hundred are being held in Gitmo. Of those released, at least ten percent have since been killed or recaptured due to involvement in terrorist acts, and a further ten percent or so have been shown to be linked to terrorist activities but have eluded capture.
10 - I fully agree that this one is being violated and should be sorted out forthwith.
11.1 - So the concept of holding potentially dangerous people in prison until their trial is lost on you? Or should we just let murderers and rapists roam about the place for a couple of months before their trial?
11.2 - No grounds for claiming this has been broken.
13 - A broader issue, and unless you favor opening the borders of every nation on earth to every individual on earth, you have nothing worth hearing when comlpaining this is being breached.
14 - Apparently you have not read part two of the article.
Now if you want to complain about Human Rights being broken, complain about article 12, article 15, and 29.2. The last of these is badly phrased, but not a one of those three are observed even remotely by any nation on Earth.
Yes Cloud, and so are England and France. Now, once again I must point out that most of your most vociferous opponents here, myself included, are equally objecting to trade barriers of any sort. Finally, it is the very socialist measures you so dearly love which lead to the belief that your society is better than the other nations, and which lead to protectionism. These things are problems, but they don't make a nation evil. Trust in the power of massive corporations, they'll break the barriers down within a couple more decades.Quote:
it is also a country which perpetuates the deaths of 50,000 people daily in sub saharan africa. you can say this isn't active genocide. but then you have to argue that the warsaw ghetto wasn't either.
The whole world needs this, not just the USA. America is merely the most prominent of nations at this time.Quote:
i have nothing against you or any american. i have a problem with america. i do not call for a genocide in america. i call for it's system of government and the way america views itself to be changed.
Because Britain is a very close friend of America and we support her in many things?Quote:
now tell me why your country thinks that 50,000 people deserve to die for the sake of the american wallet.
Don't think in the terms of "50,000 people are dying in some distant country for the sake of my wallet".Quote:
don't think in what terms? that their country is partly responsible for 50,000 deaths a day? or about themselves?
I didn't say it was justified. It's just a fact of life that people are selfish. And, by the way, America is not Nazi Germany.Quote:
many people benefit from death as the holocaust showed. doesn't mean it was right or justifiable in anyway.
I can't believe Cloud actually believes America resembles Nazi Germany, anyone. I think he just is saying that becuase it sounds poetic and he dislikes where America is headed. I mean, it's clearly not a very close resemblence.
lets looks closely at 1933 germany and modern day america. after the reichstag fire the german government put in a set of acts "for the protection of the people and the state" it was to crack down on communists. it included internment without trial, less freedom of speech, more power of the army and police for arrest without warrant or evidence.
in america after the attacks of 9-11 the patriot act was signed that did basicly the same thing except without ending political parties.
the enabling act was also signed in germany allowing hitler total rule due to the war with the commies. bush also tried this but failed. but it was an attempt.
the breach of human rights by both countries is also there. germany with the jews. america with foreign nationals in camp x-ray (this we will come to later)
germany became a little bit more agrressive after the nazis came to power. wanting to reunite all the germans and all that. they secretly wanted world control as was written in mein kamph.
bush wanted to rid the world of terror and so became more aggressive. it must be noted that his cabinet also want world control as written by the npac.
america is not nazio germany. it is 1933 germany. it is getting there. on the edge of a very slipper slope.
darklady. shouldn't people now be thinking in those terms?
the second point there was not about america resembling nazi germany it was about the west benefitting from the plight of africa in the same way many germans benefitted from a simialr scale of death.
now onto the 9 human righst breaches.
5. many people who came out of guantanamo (because they were held for 3 years and weren't guilty of anything) say they have been tortured. these are innocent men not mad raving terrorist. there is one still in guantanamo who was blinded there. and a british man who had his skull fractured and now suffers epilepsy. as well as the testimno of begg and many others as well as the qubark book in use.
the us government's downgrading of the term torture also hints at what is performed there.
6. these people do not receive legal status. so no lawyer or court and so are not equal in law.
7. the discrimination talked about is not racial or otherwise. it is due to the fact they are not given protection of the law as seen by their treatment.
8. they are held in these camps (not jail or prison) and do not receieve legal aid. america refuses to abide by the human rights or war crimes court either and so immediately violates this law.
9. we can relook at the people in quantanamo. including children. a cripple in pakistan at the time. begg also in pakistan. seems to me someone is doing this on a whim.
10. holding people for 4 years is a bit of a bastard really.
11 these men are deemed guilty before they are tried that is why the us excuses the treatment of these men as "terrorists" or "illegal fighters". torture presumes guilt.
13. this is actually in reference to cat stevens. he is no longer allowed back in the us. he is deemed guilty of terrorist offences and so is basicly exiled but has never be tried or found guilty or even arrested for these crimes. which clearly breaches this rule.
14. but as these men have never been found guilty. they are innocent of all charges. never been prosecuted.
i also greatly dislike the eu for subsidies and tarrifs. and it would be impossible to trust corporations which benefit from them or companies like macdonalds which destroy the environment, hamper fair trade and ruin the third world.
america right now needs to be very careful. it is in the same place germany was in 1933. it is angering alot of people. it's cooperation in genocide, it's human rights abuses, it's aggressive stance, it's arrogance are all getting on people's toes. and one day the world may decide that in order for america to be corrected it needs to be defeated. hopefully the future will not see a slide like germany saw and the world will be appease by america changing it's ways.
The testimony of Begg where he admitted to funding Al'Qaeda and visiting their training camps? Trustworthy fellow there. As I have said, the claims of torture are entirely unfounded and there is some evidence to suggest that lies are being told about it deliberately and with organization.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
Fair enough, point conceded.Quote:
6. these people do not receive legal status. so no lawyer or court and so are not equal in law.
So as I said, it's not discrimination (Seeing as that actually requires a particular characteristic to discriminate against.), it's a set of individuals.Quote:
7. the discrimination talked about is not racial or otherwise. it is due to the fact they are not given protection of the law as seen by their treatment.
Not even POWs get those, and these people are classed as... what was it again? Illegitimate combatants? Something like that. Anyway, point is, we didn't have a classification for arrested people who don't belong to an army, but who are also not arrested for domestic crimes.Quote:
8. they are held in these camps (not jail or prison) and do not receieve legal aid. america refuses to abide by the human rights or war crimes court either and so immediately violates this law.
And Begg has admitted on national British news that he's funded and been present at Al'Qaeda training camps. So let's not get into the question of whimsy when your strongest example is an admitted sympathiser at the absolute best.Quote:
9. we can relook at the people in quantanamo. including children. a cripple in pakistan at the time. begg also in pakistan. seems to me someone is doing this on a whim.
Yep, which is why I said I'm with you on this one.Quote:
10. holding people for 4 years is a bit of a bastard really.
Ordinarily I'd continue to contest this one, but due to the length of time they've been held I have to say I agree.Quote:
11 these men are deemed guilty before they are tried that is why the us excuses the treatment of these men as "terrorists" or "illegal fighters". torture presumes guilt.
That's the way the US immigration system works. Any customs official can deny entry for any reason, or no reason, and the form you sign as part of getting in waives any right to appeal this decision. This is patently bullQuote:
13. this is actually in reference to cat stevens. he is no longer allowed back in the us. he is deemed guilty of terrorist offences and so is basicly exiled but has never be tried or found guilty or even arrested for these crimes. which clearly breaches this rule.
, but on the other hand you could say any nation has the right to keep out anybody it wants to keep out. I disagree with that, but again: Unless you think EVERY nation on earth should open its borders to EVERY individual on earth to come and go as they like as often as they like, for any purpose that they like (I'm loath to say any purpose which isn't criminal, largely because most nations have criminalised hundreds of things which aren't actually criminal at all.), then I don't want to hear one word of lecturing about it. Because if you support anything less than that, then you don't support Article 13 at all.
Back to point 10.Quote:
14. but as these men have never been found guilty. they are innocent of all charges. never been prosecuted.
Why do you hate America for what Europe started, and what Europe has perpetuated? America is pretty much as close as any nation gets to a descendent of Europe. There is nothing America has done which rivals one tenth of the evils European nations have commited. It's because of European protectionism that these measures exist. It's the European 'intellectual' elite who've placed these crippling, dehumanising, and murderous socialist measures in place.Quote:
i also greatly dislike the eu for subsidies and tarrifs. and it would be impossible to trust corporations which benefit from them or companies like macdonalds which destroy the environment, hamper fair trade and ruin the third world.
Corporations want open trade borders, it lets them buy and sell with more ease. Individuals should want them, because it makes the economy stronger, and allows them to get the best deals they can get. Fair trade (Which is to say; Free trade.) is how to bring the third world up. China and India have embraced capitalism and they're booming economically.
America isn't going to be defeated by any external forces. America has hundreds and thousands of nuclear bombs. That's pretty much a perfect guarantee of defense until someone gets SDI - which if anyone, will be America.Quote:
america right now needs to be very careful. it is in the same place germany was in 1933. it is angering alot of people. it's cooperation in genocide, it's human rights abuses, it's aggressive stance, it's arrogance are all getting on people's toes. and one day the world may decide that in order for america to be corrected it needs to be defeated. hopefully the future will not see a slide like germany saw and the world will be appease by america changing it's ways.
America may have certain controversial rules that limit certain freedoms in exchange of protecting its citizens' lives. You could say ultimate and total freedom is more important than actually living (i.e, liberty or death), but some would disagree. But that's another argument.
What you're doing here, comparing the USA to Nazi Germany, is a disgusting and ruthlessly demagogues act. Nazi Germany started a war, murdered millions, and attempted world domination. Drawing lines of resemblence between it and roughly anything is appaling.
So, I suggest you stop. Really.
many people were present at al qaeda camps. he was there due to the bosnian war. a bit like the brits were in spain during their civil war with the international brigades.
and admitting to doing this makes him no less trustworthy.
discriminatgion does not need to be about race. i can discriminaye against and indivual happily. in the playground such an act is called bullying. treat someone adversely differently and it is discrimination.
actually the entire world has a set of rules by which it should treat you people. i just gave you 9 out of 30 of those laws.
as above for begg. and every piece of evidence says he was in pakistan. his family, visa, house, everything. and the other detainees include children. one as young as 10. and another was the taliban's ambassador to pakistan. he obviously was in pakistan at the time. and also is a cripple. i doubt he was rolling around the tora bora mountains.
and i do support article 13
actually america started subsidies and tarrifs before the eu did. in fact before the eu was formed. and the eu laws do not influence at all the us ones.
free trade is not fair trade. and right now free trade isn't just trade either.
america can be defeated. do not think that it can't. if america was to launch a nuke it would lead to it's own destruction and probably the rest of the world if MAD was implemented. everyone knows that and it would be a fool who first started a nuclear war. also there are other ways to defeat a country other than military force.
a scary fact in the world is the power of geurrilla warfare and terrorism. terrorism itself is highly immoral but large organisations have never been truly defeated. that is a scary fact. either they are negotiated with or win. geurrilla warfare has a less high success rate but is something i agree with. and is still feasible and would rule out any chance of a nuclear attack.
9-11 was committed by a small group of fanatic nutters. but recently the numbers of these people have grown. and with a growth in people comes a growth in chance. and with a growth in chance comes a growth in frequency. more and more people are willing not only to perform geurrilla warfare or terrorist attacks on america but there may be enough to make it a regular occurance. and on a huge scale. that is the doomsday scenario. in the same way as america slipping down this slope is another doomsday scenario.
If you actually think the US has no resemblince to the Third Reich. Then you should read this http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin...mes;read=34829,
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/reich.html ,
http://watch.pair.com/reich.html.
Bush if he wants can become a Dictator. And he most likelly will.
And just so you know ,you actually think anyone in Eastern Europe loves you guys? %70 of Ukrainians wished they still lived under the Soviet Union, while %90 of Russians want to revert back to Socialism. And on top of that they've showed how thankfull they are to the us by protesting against you guys and burning and making a mockery out of your flag.