2011-2012 English Football Season and STEWART DOWNING WHAT ON EARTH Thread

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

Well, he was behind Henderson and Adam!

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...because they probably already knew he was possibly going to be sold. :p Just because Carrick, Fletcher, Giggs, Berbatov and Hernandez haven't played yet doesn't mean they will forever be behind Cleverley and Welbeck. They might be, but we don't know that yet. You can't decide the established order of a club this early in the season, especially before the end of the transfer window. Only after the next few game weeks will we really know exactly what Mereiles will do at Chelsea, just as we'll find out whether Cleverley is really going to be our first choice central midfielder.

There is the established order at United that Rooney starts, but I wouldn't say there is an established order beyond that. It all comes down to form and rotation. If you can't rotate a very large squad (keep in mind we also have Owen, Macheda and Diouf who will likely start cup games), you end up in a bad position with your strikers.

To say Tevez is behind Aguero and Dzeko because of their start to the season is also a little hasty. He's a massive player for City, leaving or not, and when they pay him that much and were not wanting him to go (they would have sold him cut price if they really wanted him to leave). He'll play a lot of games this season and he'll start a large number of them, too.

Your Arsenal heirarchy is very accurate, though. :p

Drogba and Torres are the primary duo at Chelsea. Drogba will ease off though, purely due to his age - but I can tell you that when he played against us late last season, he was easily the most dangerous man on the pitch for Chelsea... his brute strength allows him to brush past any central defender when he's got the ball at the right spot, so writing him off is something I'll never do... I just can't see him ever really being a bad player, just a tired one.

Torres will become more prominent. But does that mean that Torres is past it? No. He's just not returned to his best form, he's not reaching his potential - yet. But he will. A player of Torres' quality does not subside from "best striker in the world" to "not the same player he used to be" at the age of 27. He is that player, he's just lacking in confidence. He'll get it back when he scores a few goals, and he'll likely piss us all off when he scores against our clubs. He's too good to not return to the guy who could score a hattrick against any top club in the world. The guy is a massive talent.

Lukaku is untested in PL but if he is as good as he is made out to be, Drogba will be replaced by Drogba, Part II. If Chelsea manage another 15 years of Drogba, well, smurf me, that's going to be difficult for all of us. :( Sturridge I think will be sold eventually, but he was the best attacking player for Bolton last season so he's capable of shining at PL level already. He's quality for a #3 or #4 striker.

I don't know what you're getting at regarding Chelsea's midfield. They have Essien and Obi Mikel who are both defensive midfielders. They don't need another. And they simply don't have trouble in that area. I've never seen a Chelsea game where they have struggled in the DM region. Their defenders are that high quality that they don't really have to worry about it. I mean, we have no DM's at United, and we won the title last season with that setup. Chelsea doesn't lack defence, Chelsea lacks creativity. Lampard was effective but has not been creative for some time.

Malouda was very much out of favour on occasions last season and Ramires is crap. Ramires was not played as a DM, he was played as a wide right midfielder. And I have never seen Kalou playing as a DM - he is a wing/forward. He's always been one. Did they really play him as a DM? And Obi Mikel and Essien are DMs. Essien is, when fit and in form, arguably the best DM in the world. I would love it if we had signed Essien instead of Chelsea. Obi Mikel is a DM, too, because he isn't good going forward. He's like a poor man's Fletcher - not good enough going forward so he plays in the DM position instead. Only, Obi Mikel isn't amazing there, either. :p Fletcher has more commitment and drive than Obi Mikel, which is why Fletcher is regarded higher.

EDIT: And I just checked and Meireles won 2010-11 PFA Fans' Player of the Year. Malouda and Lampard most certainly did not. How he would have won that award without being highly regarded by Liverpool fans is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by lonny bob

Essien is, when fit and in form, arguably the best DM in the world.

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He's no Nigel De Jong :colbert: Nigel is a legendary beast. Was blagged hard by the Hargreaves signing at first, but there's really no downside to it on examination. If he ends up crocked again, well, we paid nothing for him and are probably paying him relatively low wages. If he stays fit, we'll have a quality DM with a point to prove and desire to play who can slot into the side against the likes of Norwich and play in the FA cup keeping Nigel fresh and rested for the important games.

And yeah there's no way Dzeko and Aguero are ahead of Tevez in the pecking order, now the windows closed and it's confirmed he's gotta stay you'll probably see Carlos being pushed back in to do what he does. Dzeko's random burst of good form doesn't suddenly make him the god of City, and Sergio bless him is still a new guy. Let's not forget about Super Mario either :heart:

Hargreaves has signed using the win-win "Owen contract" so yeah, I imagine you're not in a bad position at all with him. The only thing that surprised me about Hargreaves signing up to a big club was that the big club was City, and they already have good DMs. Although Vieira did just retire, so I suppose it's a direct replacement.

Well yeah, we've got Nigel. Yaya can play there, but Mancini seems to think he's an attacking midfielder or something, Barry is more of a centre midfielder and pants, Milner is a winger etc. Nigel is our only commited DM, Kompany can play there if he wants but he's immense as a CB so that's his role. So it's a good bit of work and nice cover for Nigel really.

He's also less likely to get a red card than Nigel, so it fits quite well in that regard, too. Nigel plays until he gets a red, Hargo plays until Nigel can play again, repeat repeat repeat.

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I don't know what you're getting at regarding Chelsea's midfield. They have Essien and Obi Mikel who are both defensive midfielders. They don't need another. And they simply don't have trouble in that area. I've never seen a Chelsea game where they have struggled in the DM region. Their defenders are that high quality that they don't really have to worry about it. I mean, we have no DM's at United, and we won the title last season with that setup. Chelsea doesn't lack defence, Chelsea lacks creativity. Lampard was effective but has not been creative for some time.

Malouda was very much out of favour on occasions last season and Ramires is crap. Ramires was not played as a DM, he was played as a wide right midfielder. And I have never seen Kalou playing as a DM - he is a wing/forward. He's always been one. Did they really play him as a DM? And Obi Mikel and Essien are DMs. Essien is, when fit and in form, arguably the best DM in the world. I would love it if we had signed Essien instead of Chelsea. Obi Mikel is a DM, too, because he isn't good going forward. He's like a poor man's Fletcher - not good enough going forward so he plays in the DM position instead. Only, Obi Mikel isn't amazing there, either. Fletcher has more commitment and drive than Obi Mikel, which is why Fletcher is regarded higher.

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My point is that Raul IS NOT a DM and in order for him to crack the lineup, they'd have to replace either their starting DM or someone like a Malouda for him and frankly, Malouda is a better player when he's on form. What Raul could bring is creativity, but isn't that why they brought in Mata? If they didn't have Mata, I could see playing Meireles there. But otherwise, I don't see where he cracks the starting lineup.

If we assume their starting lineup looks like this and I think AVB likes a 4-1-2-3:

Cech
Cole Terry Luiz (Ivanovic) Bosingwa
Obi Mikel
Lampard Malouda
Mata Drogba Torres

I could see Meireles coming in as a sub for Lampard or Mata to keep things moving creatively but I think he just moved to a more expensive bench.

As for Tevez, you know, Mancini has just as big an ego and I don't know if he'd just gladly plug Tevez back in. He's shown he has no problem buying expensive players and not playing them consistently: Milner, Balotelli, and frankly, with the way they've looked, why mess with their rotation? Tevez has proven that he'll play hard for a few years then want to leave, which has always bugged me because I do like him as a player. I kind of want a manager to rein him in and make him see that it can't always be about his wants but that THE team is more important.

Finally, for Man Utd, I definitely think there is a pecking order there. Otherwise, where the heck is Berbatov? I think it's Rooney and then either Hernandez or Welbeck then Berbatov or maybe even Owen when fit above him? Talk about an abundance of riches if Berbatov can't get a game.

Take care all.

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Originally Posted by The Captain

My point is that Raul IS NOT a DM

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We agree on that!

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and in order for him to crack the lineup, they'd have to replace either their starting DM or someone like a Malouda for him and frankly, Malouda is a better player when he's on form.

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But I disagree on that. :) Well, I'd say they're on par, I suppose. Malouda had brilliant games last season, but he was often pointed at as the 'weak link' in the Chelsea side. I don't agree with that, to be honest, but a large number of people don't call someone a weak link if he's playing brilliantly week-in, week-out. He obviously wasn't. It was the latter half of the season, if I remember correctly. Perhaps I do agree that he can be a better player, but his consistency is simply not good enough.

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What Raul could bring is creativity, but isn't that why they brought in Mata? If they didn't have Mata, I could see playing Meireles there. But otherwise, I don't see where he cracks the starting lineup.

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They were also looking to bring in Modric. Perhaps this is the area where you and I look at purchases differently, and perhaps you can see why if you look at the sides which we have supported over the past five years. If you think one creative midfielder is enough, well, look at any title-winning side. One is never enough if you want to win titles. Never. Liverpool have rarely relied on depth in their squad during the Benitez era - they had their best players and those players played regularly - they had a lot of other players, sure, but they weren't good enough to realistically compete with the others in the squad. But now it seems they have so many good players that compete for positions... it's like you guys having Carroll for £35m when he's more often than not a sub. But he's not simply a sub, is he? He's more than that. He's a proper good player that could start a match and you wouldn't feel tit. Not to mention Bellamy joining too. You can now rotate your strikers or even combine them in a dangerous manner. This talent in depth gives you options, gives you strength to compete for a full season, gives you the realistic target of CL football. Meireles gives Chelsea that. They won't play the same side every week. They're in it to win it.

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If we assume their starting lineup looks like this and I think AVB likes a 4-1-2-3:

Cech
Cole Terry Luiz (Ivanovic) Bosingwa
Obi Mikel
Lampard Malouda
Mata Drogba Torres

I could see Meireles coming in as a sub for Lampard or Mata to keep things moving creatively but I think he just moved to a more expensive bench.

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This perhaps exaggerates my point. Why do we have Hernandez, Berbatov, Rooney, Owen, Welbeck, Macheda and Diouf? Why do we have Smalling, Jones, Ferdinand and Vidic (note: we had even more central defenders last season!)? Why do you have Suárez, Carroll, Kuyt and Bellamy?

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As for Tevez, you know, Mancini has just as big an ego and I don't know if he'd just gladly plug Tevez back in.

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That's true, but for me, it would make him a stupid manager. He's not stupid. If Tevez can help him win a title, everyone will expect him to play. Egos are put aside if you want to win.

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He's shown he has no problem buying expensive players and not playing them consistently: Milner, Balotelli,

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I'd put that more down to City than to him. Arguably every single one of their players was expensive, so it only makes sense that many will be benched. But Tevez will not be ignored, will not be made to play in the reserves. People use that "rot in the reserves" thing but it doesn't really happen. Not when you pay them that much, not when other teams were wanting to buy them. If you don't want the player to play, you sell the player. Mancini wants him to play. The only thing stopping him from playing is the form of his other strikers and - possibly - Tevez being a snot.

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and frankly, with the way they've looked, why mess with their rotation? Tevez has proven that he'll play hard for a few years then want to leave, which has always bugged me because I do like him as a player. I kind of want a manager to rein him in and make him see that it can't always be about his wants but that THE team is more important.

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I agree that it would be futile to mess with Aguero and Dzeko when they are both heavily in form, but they aren't exactly Lionel Messi. They will have bad runs - all strikers do. They'll get tired, too. More and more games will be played. Everything is different after the transfer window closes. Players who wanted away realise they are stuck with their club and they get on with things. Managers will have not played certain players because there was the possibility of them being sold, and the possibility disappeared two nights ago.

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Finally, for Man Utd, I definitely think there is a pecking order there. Otherwise, where the heck is Berbatov? I think it's Rooney and then either Hernandez or Welbeck then Berbatov or maybe even Owen when fit above him? Talk about an abundance of riches if Berbatov can't get a game.

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There is some sort of pecking order... but But SAF has always highlighted his desire to get four strikers in form. He rotates all the time. If there was a pecking order that was strictly followed, we would never have played Bébé, Owen or Macheda last season. Rotation: injuries, keeping players happy, form going up and down, tactical changes, horses for courses, confidence, impressing the gaffer in training... rotation, rotation, rotation. That's something you seem to forget about far too quickly when you discuss squads! There are pecking orders but that does not make a player a sub for all days. Pecking orders change, pecking orders are rotated, pecking orders can be impacted by almost anything.

I can agree on some of what you said, however, I think that it's just as vitally important for a side like Chelsea to get their strikers in order before anything else. One could argue that Arsenal have had no shortage of playmakers in their midfield over the last few years, the Cesc's, the Nasri's, etc, etc but it's led to little result because other then Van Persie, no one will consistently put those great passes in to the back of the net.

I think they are in danger of turning in to Man City of the last few years. Too many players and not finding the right mix to get optimum results. Sure, they could play Mata, Lampard, Torres, Drogba, Meireles, Malouda all at once but I don't think the balance would be right.

What Man City have done right this year is found a real formula for success: Strikers who can come back and get the ball (Which Tevez did do), midfield wizards in Silva and Nasri, defensive players who keep the middle clean in De Jong and potentially Hargreaves, width with Adam Johnson and Clichy when he bombs up the side and a strong defensive core. That's what has won Man Utd championships and what also makes Barcelona a damn perfect team (Having Messi, Xavi and David Villa certainly helps too).

I don't know if adding another creative midfielder to the mix in Chelsea is the best idea when they need to sort out their strikers first. Mata, Meireles, Lampard and company can all play great in the middle but if Torres remains off form, if Drogba begins to slow, if Lukaku isn't ready yet... they turn in to Arsenal, but with a much better defense.

Granted, I get why they made the move. Like you said, coverage and to rotate. However, if some other club had signed someone for 12 million pounds and he wasn't going to be any every week sort of player for them, I'd said they overpaid. Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City, even Utd have drastically changed what it means to be a savvy buyer when it comes to price.

As for Tevez, I really don't think money is the issue. Man City have enough money to let him rot of they want. If he cleans up his act, shuts his mouth and plays, then Mancini will play him. However, if he keeps making statements about how he's "resigned to stay" or has a "love-hate" relationship with his own manager, his butt belongs on the bench.

I get why teams are stockpiling players, but it seems to me that at the end of each season, you have at LEAST 3 or 4 players who won't feature enough and were brought in only to be sold later. That's how I see Meireles. If someone gets injured, sure, he is a great signing, but it gets crazy when a team can literally field another starting 11 off the bench and this is coming from a NY Yankee fan.

Wow, I just compared Chelsea to both Man City AND Arsenal. The international break has to end soon.

Take care all.

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Originally Posted by The Captain

I can agree on some of what you said, however, I think that it's just as vitally important for a side like Chelsea to get their strikers in order before anything else. One could argue that Arsenal have had no shortage of playmakers in their midfield over the last few years, the Cesc's, the Nasri's, etc, etc but it's led to little result because other then Van Persie, no one will consistently put those great passes in to the back of the net.

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While I agree, it should be noted that both Chelsea and Arsenal scored 9/12 (respectively) more goals than City did. Chelsea do have great strikes and they have added Sturridge & Lukaku to their squad. If you think that's a bad group, I don't know why. Perhaps you're thinking of their end of season form last year, but moving clubs mid-season makes the second half of the season difficult for almost any player. Form is temporary, class is permanent. We'll see if Torres can regain his class this season, meanwhile having Drogba (still great, just lacking in stamina now so can't play as often), Anelka (scores in every club he plays at), Sturridge (8 games in 12 appearances for Bolton at the end of last season) and Lukaku (top scorer in Belgium at the age of 16 is nothing to sniff at - this guy is physically bigger than Drogba, and is about as two-footed as Nani/Young if I remember rightly).

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I think they are in danger of turning in to Man City of the last few years. Too many players and not finding the right mix to get optimum results. Sure, they could play Mata, Lampard, Torres, Drogba, Meireles, Malouda all at once but I don't think the balance would be right.

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No, it wouldn't. I agree there. But that's why you rotate. You don't see us playing Valencia, Young, Nani, Rooney, Hernandez and Giggs. Hernandez, despite having a wonder season last year, came off the bench at least 18 times and only started 27 games - Berbatov started 32.

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What Man City have done right this year is found a real formula for success: Strikers who can come back and get the ball (Which Tevez did do), midfield wizards in Silva and Nasri, defensive players who keep the middle clean in De Jong and potentially Hargreaves, width with Adam Johnson and Clichy when he bombs up the side and a strong defensive core. That's what has won Man Utd championships and what also makes Barcelona a damn perfect team (Having Messi, Xavi and David Villa certainly helps too).

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...and in all cases bar Barcelona (who I think we can all agree are a pretty big exception), they rotate their squad. United rotates almost every game, even when we don't have to. City rotated last season and had their best season to date. I'm sure they'll rotate again. You need a squad, not a fixed starting XI.

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I don't know if adding another creative midfielder to the mix in Chelsea is the best idea when they need to sort out their strikers first. Mata, Meireles, Lampard and company can all play great in the middle but if Torres remains off form, if Drogba begins to slow, if Lukaku isn't ready yet... they turn in to Arsenal, but with a much better defense.

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Sturridge, hi. 8 goals in 12 games at a club which, with all due respect to Bolton, is not a club famed for it's creative attacking play. That is nothing to sniff at. They technically have Kalou, too, but... eh, he's not the best at their end. Lampard is slowing down just as fast as Drogba is and Mata is at the moment unproven in the PL. If Torres, Drogba, Anelka, Sturridge, Lukaku and Kalou all struggle, Malouda will play up front. If it genuinely comes to that. I would laugh my arse off if every striker Chelsea have lost their touch. It'd be like Rooney, Hernandez, Berbatov, Welbeck and Owen all struggling. These are things you can't anticipate. Oh, and as for Torres remaining off form, he's no longer out of form. He was praised in the game we played against them, and he's scored in pre-season too. Last season's form counts for nothing.

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Granted, I get why they made the move. Like you said, coverage and to rotate. However, if some other club had signed someone for 12 million pounds and he wasn't going to be any every week sort of player for them, I'd said they overpaid. Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City, even Utd have drastically changed what it means to be a savvy buyer when it comes to price.

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Meireles: £12m - no games played for Chelsea since he signed, so we don't know yet
Carroll: £35m - is second fiddle to Suarez at the moment
Berbatov: £30m - warming the bench at the moment
City - I mean, I don't even know where to start. I think every player on their sub bench cost them at least £12m. Surely? Hargo and Johnson excepted.

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As for Tevez, I really don't think money is the issue. Man City have enough money to let him rot of they want. If he cleans up his act, shuts his mouth and plays, then Mancini will play him. However, if he keeps making statements about how he's "resigned to stay" or has a "love-hate" relationship with his own manager, his butt belongs on the bench.

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I agree in that regard, but Kia is a shrewd guy - a right dick, mind you - and will play his cards right. Tevez will play because Kia will tell him to play. And Tevez is his puppet.

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I get why teams are stockpiling players, but it seems to me that at the end of each season, you have at LEAST 3 or 4 players who won't feature enough and were brought in only to be sold later. That's how I see Meireles. If someone gets injured, sure, he is a great signing, but it gets crazy when a team can literally field another starting 11 off the bench and this is coming from a NY Yankee fan.

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*shrug* United have done this for years. We're proof that it works.

It's fun to debate football. Also, hahaha, they rave about the new look England and how they can keep the ball now because Parker and Barry are playing, and how no long ball tactics will occur. And Parker practices long ball. Over and over. :p

We all know England were better because they had no Frank Lampard. Don't stop there though. Get rid of Terry, Rio Ferdinand and Stevie G (:() too!

Responses to Lonny BoB:

- We played Torres even though we knew he was gonna be sold. And Raul has come on as a sub in two games and started our second string against Exeter, so any idea of "protecting" him for a sale by not playing him is ridiculous. Especially as he got crippled vs Exeter! :p
- Essien is not even the best DM in the Prem (De Jong and Lucas are definitely better, Alex Song a possibility too) so no, he isn't the best DM in the world. 3 years ago, you may just have been right though.
- Torres is not on top form. He has 0 goals in 3 games. That is not any kind of form for him.

Regarding Torres, I didn't say he's in top form, I said that last season's form counts for nothing and it's too early to say he's in bad form.

Regarding Essien, I said if he's fit and on form, he's one of the best. I stand by that! He's just not been fit and in form for some time. :( Perhaps one of his injuries has affected him badly. But you're right that going by his past season or so he's not been one of the best, and fair enough, I guess you can only judge players by what they do on the pitch, but I still think that if he gets a solid run in the team again then he'll be back to his best. I hope so. He's one of the only Chelsea players I've found myself actually liking. :p

So Sunderland offloaded Gyan and lost again. haha XP
I'm curious to see how Newcastle fair on Monday, will Barton score against us. Will Demba Ba score? Or will there be more surprises from Ryan Taylor and Sammy Ameobi.

With every round of games that passes, I realise we wasted £35m on Andy Carroll... but the fact that we got £50m for Fernando Torres makes me feel better about it. :)

Someday you might get to the stage that you play 4-4-2 with Carroll and Suarez up front and both will be in form and that £35m will suddenly feel very well spent. The potential of that front two is pretty immense.

:smug: